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Brad Klein

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Trump at Doral
« on: March 06, 2013, 06:07:49 AM »
Trump is easy to caricature and ridicule; it's harder to explain how he has enjoyed a certain level of success in the golf industry. I am sure most people on this site don't share his aesthetic. But it's still interesting to see how he goes about his business. And for a journalist, it's a challenge to present him live and in person. As I profile him at Doral, it's clear Gil Hanse takes him very seriously:

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/05/major-makeover-trump-has-big-vision-doral/
 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2013, 06:42:11 AM »
Brad,

Friends of mine just returned from playing Doral.

They said that the courses were in excellent condition and that the staff treated them extremely well.

I guess the right time to go there is just before their PGA event.

Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 06:51:51 AM »
Seriously Pat, what are you getting for this endless Trump promotional work?  :)

Needs a bigger fountain.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 08:23:05 AM »
   At a time when the game needs a boost you can not deny that Mr. Trump has the energy and passion to provide it.  I wonder what he could do in the public golf market?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 08:51:39 AM »
Seriously Pat, what are you getting for this endless Trump promotional work?  :)

Needs a bigger fountain.  ;D

When he stops paying me  ;D

Paul, you know, there are people who like fountains


Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 08:53:16 AM »

Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.


Sorry Pat,

I don't know how bigger cascades, bigger island greens and bigger self-proclaimed "Championship US OPEN worthy courses" have been good for golf.  And don't get me started about the clubhouses that all of these courses must certainly have to match their "greatness"....

I think this site deserves more explanations if you're going to state something like this!

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 09:04:34 AM »
Can anyone name anything Mr. Trump has done for public golf?

WW

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2013, 09:15:47 AM »
Golf is a leisure activity undertaken by choice not necessity. Any such activity needs its promoters as well as practitioners.

It needs its characters as well as character and Trump understands the modern world of promotion and how to create interest and attention. Doesn't mean we have to like it for it to be good for the game
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2013, 09:28:27 AM »
Brad,

Nice article.  You report that Gil is balking at Trump's plan for #15 to feature an island green. Despite that, yesterday Trump said #15 is "going to be an island green essentially, a beautiful island green."

Where do you think this will net out?
 
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/3/6/the-trump-blue-monster-renovation-plan-revealed.html
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2013, 09:34:24 AM »
I was just looking at the Google Earth sat views of the course, comparing with the renovation plan.  I guess it's the first time I've looked at the course from above... The bunkering, oh my.

Can anyone provide a brief history who has made changes to the course, and in particular, who did the bunkering that is there now?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2013, 09:36:23 AM »

Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.


Sorry Pat,

I don't know how bigger cascades, bigger island greens and bigger self-proclaimed "Championship US OPEN worthy courses" have been good for golf.  And don't get me started about the clubhouses that all of these courses must certainly have to match their "greatness"....

I think this site deserves more explanations if you're going to state something like this!

Yannick,

Which Trump courses have you played ?



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 09:37:43 AM »

Can anyone name anything Mr. Trump has done for public golf?

Wade,

Why is he obligated to do anything for public golf ?



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 09:39:19 AM »
I was just looking at the Google Earth sat views of the course, comparing with the renovation plan.  I guess it's the first time I've looked at the course from above... The bunkering, oh my.

Can anyone provide a brief history who has made changes to the course, and in particular, who did the bunkering that is there now?

Tom, several people have altered the course including Ray Floyd

Wilson's work is long gone




Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 10:10:37 AM »
Regardless of any good he has done for the game, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. I am 100% sure Trump doesn't care if I ever play one of his courses, but I won't. Sometimes principles have to win out over desires.

Although I like the taste of veal, I won't eat it. I can't support a food that is made out of cruelty.

Although I like some of Michael Jackson's music, when one of his songs comes on the radio I turn the channel. I can't support a guy who had so many inappropriate relationships with kids.

Although I'm sure there are a few Trump courses I would love, I will never play one. I can't enjoy a product that was bankrolled by someone who treats those beneath him like dirt.

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 10:16:07 AM »

has been good for golf.


Would you mind elaborating?

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 10:21:28 AM »

has been good for golf.


Would you mind elaborating?

A fair question. Good luck getting a direct answer.

Instead, I'm waiting for the "why isn't he good for golf?" retort. 



"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Peter Pallotta

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 10:31:53 AM »
Very well done, Brad, thanks - I thought the writing excellent. And you capture something about him that I have always liked, and that I think important: he really does try to serve the interests of his customers, first and foremost, and he does it with hard work and attention to detail. (I think there is a certain and a certain kind of humility there, covered over by his meta-level bluster and self promotion.) I'm pretty sure he cares no less about golf/golf courses than does Mr. Keiser -- they are simply serving very different customers.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 10:33:59 AM by PPallotta »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 10:54:03 AM »
Regardless of any good he has done for the game, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. I am 100% sure Trump doesn't care if I ever play one of his courses, but I won't. Sometimes principles have to win out over desires.

Although I like the taste of veal, I won't eat it. I can't support a food that is made out of cruelty.

Although I like some of Michael Jackson's music, when one of his songs comes on the radio I turn the channel. I can't support a guy who had so many inappropriate relationships with kids.

Although I'm sure there are a few Trump courses I would love, I will never play one. I can't enjoy a product that was bankrolled by someone who treats those beneath him like dirt.

Dan,

Whom have you personally spoken with who either work for Trump or who used to work for Trump.

Every, let me repeat, every employee I've spoken to had nothing but positive things to say about him, so I'd like to know where you're getting your information from ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 10:58:16 AM »

has been good for golf.


Would you mind elaborating?

Sure,

For starters he rescued clubs that would have gone under

Second, he took a vacant piece of flat property and built a nice 27 hole golf course

Third, he's provided employment to many in the golf industry.

Now, let me ask you and Howard, what have you done for golf ?

How would you compare your contributions and accomplishments to those of Trump's ?


JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2013, 11:11:06 AM »


 I'm pretty sure he cares no less about golf/golf courses than does Mr. Keiser -- they are simply serving very different customers.

 

Peter,that's a great observation which I agree with completely. DT has his loyal market and he knows how to serve it.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2013, 11:19:49 AM »

has been good for golf.


Would you mind elaborating?

Sure,

For starters he rescued clubs that would have gone under

Second, he took a vacant piece of flat property and built a nice 27 hole golf course

Third, he's provided employment to many in the golf industry.

Now, let me ask you and Howard, what have you done for golf ?

How would you compare your contributions and accomplishments to those of Trump's ?


Admittedly, I have not rescued any clubs, built 27 holes of golf, employed anybody or created any waterfalls.

When my net worth reaches $2.9 billion, I expect to change all that.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2013, 11:51:48 AM »
I was just looking at the Google Earth sat views of the course, comparing with the renovation plan.  I guess it's the first time I've looked at the course from above... The bunkering, oh my.

Can anyone provide a brief history who has made changes to the course, and in particular, who did the bunkering that is there now?



I was doing and thinking the same. The greenside bunkers on 16!

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2013, 12:03:35 PM »
Maybe Trump is so succesfull in golf because many golfers share his style and tastes, if we like it or not.....

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2013, 12:38:00 PM »
What have I done for golf, and how would I compare my contributions and accomplishments to those of Donald Trump?  First off, I'm going to print that question on a big 24x36 poster, hang it above my desk, and use it as motivation everyday.  To answer, the fact that you don't know who I am or what I've done makes me feel pretty good about my career thus far.     

As for Donald:  I believe he's falling well short of sustainable development i.e., "development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs."  This is evidenced by the new Bronx course, Aberdeen, and Colts Neck.  All three have well-documented social and/or environmental concerns.  Sustainability has three legs:  social, environment, economic.  He's getting by pretty well on a one-legged stool, but eventually it's going to tip.  When it happens, all those benefits about reclaimed land and local employment will be gone.   

As for Doral, $150 million to buy and $150 million to renovate.  I fundamentally disagree with that development philosophy.  Which ties into your first comment, buying clubs that otherwise wouldn't have been rescued.  In fact, Doral would've been rescued without Trump.  They had other bids on the property, but Trump won, rightfully so, with the highest bid.  However, if you believe courses like Doral are the ones that need rescuing then we don't have much more to talk about. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump at Doral
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2013, 01:07:21 PM »
What have I done for golf, and how would I compare my contributions and accomplishments to those of Donald Trump?  First off, I'm going to print that question on a big 24x36 poster, hang it above my desk, and use it as motivation everyday.  To answer, the fact that you don't know who I am or what I've done makes me feel pretty good about my career thus far.   

Unless you work for MI 6, MI 5, the CIA or the FBI, anonymity is never a career builder.
 

As for Donald:  I believe he's falling well short of sustainable development i.e., "development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." 

That's pure nonsense and you're in no position, nor are you qualified to judge.
How have the needs of future generations been compromised by his development of Trump National in West Palm Beach ?


This is evidenced by the new Bronx course, Aberdeen, and Colts Neck. 
Colts Neck was in dire straights with significant debt.

Tell us how Colts Neck would have been better off going under ?
Tell us how his taking over Colts Neck is compromising future generations


All three have well-documented social and/or environmental concerns. 

What  concerns is Trump responsible for ?
Have you played all three ?


Sustainability has three legs:  social, environment, economic. 

Sustainability has one leg, economic.
Without economic, it can't be sustained.


He's getting by pretty well on a one-legged stool, but eventually it's going to tip.

In your expert opinion, tell us why Trump National at West Palm Beach is going to tip ?
 

When it happens, all those benefits about reclaimed land and local employment will be gone. 

Even if you were right, which I doubt, what about all the benefits and employment in the interim ?
Would those employees be better off today, without a job ?
 

As for Doral, $150 million to buy and $150 million to renovate.  I fundamentally disagree with that development philosophy. 

What's your track record, compared to his ?


Which ties into your first comment, buying clubs that otherwise wouldn't have been rescued.  In fact, Doral would've been rescued without Trump.

By whom and for what use ?

They had other bids on the property, but Trump won, rightfully so, with the highest bid. 

But, what were the other bidders intent with the property ?
To retain and improve it as a golf facility or for other purposes ?
Were they going to invest another $ 200,000,000 ?


However, if you believe courses like Doral are the ones that need rescuing then we don't have much more to talk about. 

How many times have you played Doral, and over what time period.

Doral was a great Dick Wilson course.


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