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Jud_T

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2014, 02:42:38 PM »
JB,

Interesting conceptually, although I might be tempted to look at savings vs. "estimated value" in % terms.  I'm pretty sure most people would value a $50 savings more highly on a course that's 'worth' $100 than on one worth $300.  Of course one could easily adjust for whether your personal course rank was higher or lower than the GCA consensus or if it were a 1 time play vs. your everyday club etc.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 02:54:58 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Michael Essig

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2014, 02:53:59 PM »
These people probably sail as well.    

Ciao

Yes, but I sail someone else's boat. ;)  That's why I like UK clubs: you own the course, but let me take it for a sail occasionally. ;D

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2014, 05:41:09 PM »
I understand why this thread exists but to me the highest value I have ever received from playing golf were at the Old course at St Andrews and at Pebble Beach, despite the fact that they are very expensive courses to play.  That would also hold true if I ever get to play at ANGC or PV, even if I have to pay several thousand for the round.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2014, 09:23:48 PM »
Jud, as I understand it you took the highest greens fee anyone can pay in figuring the scores.  But many courses offer much better deals than that at various times.  May be a pain to calculate, but I wonder what the scores and ranking come to for low season weekday with specials?  Also not the highest or lowest prices possible, but the average greens fee?  

Rich G: are you sure Doak's scale is logarithmic?  If so, Tom himself did not base it on 10: he gave more than ten courses a score of ten; less than 100 courses a score of 9, way less than 1000 courses a score of 8, etc.

ETA: I hope Jud used the unadjusted quality scores from the GCA rankings.  He should have IMO.   
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 09:25:58 PM by Jim Nugent »

Sean_A

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2014, 04:56:19 AM »
Jud, as I understand it you took the highest greens fee anyone can pay in figuring the scores.  But many courses offer much better deals than that at various times.  May be a pain to calculate, but I wonder what the scores and ranking come to for low season weekday with specials?  Also not the highest or lowest prices possible, but the average greens fee?  

Rich G: are you sure Doak's scale is logarithmic?  If so, Tom himself did not base it on 10: he gave more than ten courses a score of ten; less than 100 courses a score of 9, way less than 1000 courses a score of 8, etc.

ETA: I hope Jud used the unadjusted quality scores from the GCA rankings.  He should have IMO.  

Jim

The biggest reason I don't use deal prices is because they tend to be off season, at bad times or only available to certain people.  I think its better to compare what it costs to play courses during prime time in high season.  That way at least its an apples for apples comparison, just as if someone was getting a quote, the spec doesn't change.

Jud

I generally look at "savings" in terms of what I can buy while on a golfing holiday.  For instance, if its a £50 saving, I can have a good meal or a game at a good course.  It its a £10 saving it doesn''t mean much - can't even buy a hat.  Plus, I think for many, once they have seen the expensive course once or twice, they will often look for cheaper alternatives.  So its a matter of saving money, experiencing different courses and past experience.  

Wayne - yes, for sure, there are some courses which provide great value despite a high green fee.  I am not sure paying thousands of dollars is terribly clever, but to each is own. 

Yes, but I sail someone else's boat.  You and me both brother.   :D

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 04:59:50 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Jud_T

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2014, 06:23:22 AM »
Sean,

I agree.  50 bucks is 50 bucks, but my point was just that all else being equal, 50 bucks off a 500 dollar green fee is still 450 bucks while 50 bucks off a 100 dollar green fee is a deal.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Greg Tallman

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2014, 10:28:09 AM »
You might recalculate CDS Ocean which can be played for $165 USD any day of the week (late afternoon) during our high season.

Jud_T

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2014, 10:38:57 AM »
You might recalculate CDS Ocean which can be played for $165 USD any day of the week (late afternoon) during our high season.

Yeah, but that's around the same time that the wet t-shirt contests start in Cabo.  A man has to have his priorities straight...  8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Greg Tallman

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2014, 10:46:22 AM »
You might recalculate CDS Ocean which can be played for $165 USD any day of the week (late afternoon) during our high season.

Yeah, but that's around the same time that the wet t-shirt contests start in Cabo.  A man has to have his priorities straight...  8)

Wednesday - play Desert Course early for a reasonable price then enjoy wet T-shirt Wednesday

Thursday - sleep in, play golf later on Ocean Course for a bargain

Tom_Doak

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2014, 11:39:12 AM »
Rich G: are you sure Doak's scale is logarithmic?  If so, Tom himself did not base it on 10: he gave more than ten courses a score of ten; less than 100 courses a score of 9, way less than 1000 courses a score of 8, etc.  

Jim:

Yes, I have described the Doak scale as logarithmic in the past, meaning that I think the leap from a 6 to a 7 to an 8 is more than just a slight difference.  But of course it's not a 10x logarithm, because there aren't millions of golf courses in the world ;) .  If you think of the distribution of courses as something of a Bell curve, with "3" the average course, and there are 30,000 golf courses in the world, every jump up should have about 1/3 as many courses as the previous step.  That would give a distribution something like this:

3 or below:  20,000 courses
4:  8,100
5:  2,700
6:  900 courses
7:  300
8:  100
9:  30
10: 10 courses

Which is not too far off the distribution pattern for courses I've rated, considering I'm only trying to see the best of them.  I was probably a bit too stingy with the 9's, based on this view, but I didn't start out with a distribution in mind ... I felt my way to it.

This distribution also means that a rating of 6 puts a course among the top 5% in the world, and a 5 is in the top 15%.

As to the topic of this thread, value for dollar depends on how you value the jumps on the scale, a topic on which reasonable minds with different financial means will certainly disagree.  Certainly, by the way I've defined the Doak scale, an 8 should be worth a lot more than twice the green fee a 4 is worth.  If every point on the Doak scale doubled the value of the green fee, and a 1 cost $1, then a 10 would be worth $512, so that's too strong, because you can't find many courses for $4 or $8.  It seems to work more like a 50% increase for each point:

10 - $450
9 - $300
8 - $200
7 - $135
6 - $90
5 - $60
4 - $40
3 - $27
2 - $18
1 - $12  

I have to admit that I'm blown away by the rack rate green fees for nearly all the top courses nowadays ... but I do think Pebble Beach is way closer to being worth $500 than Spyglass Hill is to being worth $350 or $400.

The nature of the modern economy is increasing the multiplier, though, as some economists like Mr. Piketty are starting to figure out.  It's long been accepted that 20% of the people would amass 80% of the wealth, but it's only recently that anyone thought that there would be no restraint on compounding that principle, so that 20% of the 20% would own 80% of the 80% [that's 4% owing 64% of the wealth, or 0.8% of the people owning 51.2% of the wealth at the next step].  Economics in this age is quickly evolving to winner-take-all, and the winners can afford any green fee they want.

Sean_A

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2014, 11:57:41 AM »
10 - $450
9 - $300
8 - $200
7 - $135
6 - $90
5 - $60
4 - $40
3 - $27
2 - $18
1 - $12  

Using the above scale you are really saying TOC (£155/$260) is a bargain  ;)  I would dig a bit deeper and say the Sacred 9 (£70/$118 for ALL DAY GOLF) is a steal at twice the price  ;D

Honestly though, the way that scale jumps 8 to 10 is crazy. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 11:59:35 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tom_Doak

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2014, 01:47:29 PM »
Honestly though, the way that scale jumps 8 to 10 is crazy. 


Sure it's crazy, for the economic means of 95% of people.  But many golfers are in that last 5% and that's who the prices are set for.

JBovay

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2014, 08:06:17 AM »
Just wanted to follow up on a few things:

Jud, I definitely agree that considerations of value are different based on whether you're talking about choosing a home course or a one-time play.

There's a lot to be said for circumstances but also for seeing new courses for the sake of variety. Personal valuations also depend heavily on what's in one's backyard, literally or figuratively. That's part of why this thing is "to each his or her own".

Here a new version of the table I made based on what Tom Doak said about valuing courses on his own scale. As I don't own a copy of the Confidential Guide, I really don't know how I'd value courses at the lower end of the scale. (And I've yet to play a course that I personally consider a 9, so all in all, I think this adjusted version may be better than my original one.) However, not much changes in terms of the rankings.

Course name   GCA points   Doak value ($)   Surplus ($)   Value rank
Royal Dornoch      9.3   339   171   1
Barnbougle Dunes      8.6   255   153   2
Highlands Links      8.44   239   136   3
St. Andrews (Old)   9.35   346   109   4
Royal County Down   9.58   380   105   5
Pacific Dunes   9.28   336   101   6
Wild Horse Golf Club      7.21   145   97   7
A 6.5 that costs $20   6.5   109   89   8
St. Enodoc      8   200   85   9
North Berwick   8.17   214   77   10
A 6 that costs $20   6   89   69   11
Macrihanish      7.56   167   68   12
Lawsonia Golf Club (Links)       7.41   157   67   13
Pennard      7.4   157   66   14
Silloth-On-Solway      7.27   149   64   15
Paraparaumu Beach   7.85   188   63   16
Black Mesa Golf Club      6.91   129   62   17
Rustic Canyon Golf Course      6.84   125   59   18
Carne      6.8   123   57   19
Woking   7.53   165   51   20
Bethpage (Black)   7.98   198   48   21
Royal Portrush   8.91   289   45   22
Cruden Bay   7.72   179   42   23
Rye   8   200   40   24
A 5 that costs $20   5   59   39   25
Enniscrone      6.7   118   32   26
Royal Melbourne (West)   9.65   390   31   27
Ganton   7.68   176   31   28
Notts (Hollinwell)   7.17   143   29   29
Royal West Norfolk   7.42   158   28   30
Cuscowilla   7.19   144   24   31
A 6 that costs $65   6   89   24   32
Lahinch   8.3   226   20   33
A 4 that costs $20   4   40   20   34
Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)   7.77   182   17   35
Newcastle   7.08   138   13   36
World Woods (Pine Barrens)   6.96   131   12   37
Saunton (East)   6.94   130   8   38
St. George's Hill   8.15   213   7   39
A 5 that costs $55   5   59   4   40
Ballybunion   8.78   274   0   41
Tobacco Road   7   133   -1   42
Chambers Bay   7.33   152   -6   43
Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)   7.92   194   -8   44
A 6 that costs $100   6   89   -11   45
Burnham & Berrow   6.67   117   -13   46
Alwoodley   6.96   131   -14   47
The Addington   7.08   138   -14   48
County Sligo   6.51   109   -17   49
Jasper Park   7.4   157   -20   50
West Sussex   7.09   138   -22   51
The Island (Dublin, Ireland)   7.04   136   -22   52
Western Gailes   7.66   174   -25   53
Worplesdon   6.57   112   -25   54
Muirfield   8.75   271   -27   55
Carnoustie (Championship)   7.97   198   -27   56
Royal St. George's   8.37   232   -28   57
County Louth   6.74   120   -39   58
Royal Troon   7.39   156   -43   59
Nairn   6.67   117   -43   60
Portstewart   6.79   122   -46   61
Homestead (Cascades)   7.23   146   -49   62
Bandon Trails   7.82   186   -49   63
Royal Aberdeen   6.97   132   -51   64
Prestwick   7.81   185   -52   65
Banff Springs   7.58   169   -52   66
Pasatiempo   7.95   196   -54   67
Bandon Dunes   7.73   179   -56   68
Royal Porthcawl   7.27   149   -56   69
Arcadia Bluffs   6.61   114   -66   70
Kingston Heath   8.73   269   -70   71
Sunningdale (Old)   8.32   228   -70   72
Palmetto   6.79   122   -73   73
Walton Heath   7.71   178   -74   74
Mid Ocean   7.68   176   -74   75
Royal Adelaide   7.13   141   -75   76
Formby   6.55   111   -75   77
Turnberry (Ailsa)   8.32   228   -76   78
Royal Cinque Ports   7.34   153   -82   79
Portmarnock (Old)   7.8   184   -83   80
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)   7.13   141   -84   81
Royal Birkdale   7.91   193   -90   82
Gleneagles (King's)   7.29   150   -94   83
Waterville   7.29   150   -98   84
Cape Kidnappers   8.27   223   -99   85
Pine Needles   6.98   132   -103   86
Royal Liverpool   7.49   163   -113   87
Blackwolf Run (River)   6.98   132   -118   88
Harbour Town   7.18   143   -121   89
Kingsbarns   7.6   170   -127   90
Kapalua (Plantation)   7.25   148   -130   91
Sunningdale (New)   7.52   165   -133   92
The Berkshire (Red)   6.95   131   -135   93
San Lorenzo   6.6   113   -138   94
Walton Heath (New)   6.86   126   -140   95
The Berkshire (Blue)   6.76   121   -145   96
The European Club   6.69   118   -155   97
Ocean Course at Kiawah Island   7.91   193   -167   98
Royal Melbourne (East)   7.68   176   -184   99
Whistling Straits (Straits)   7.66   174   -186   100
Cabo del Sol (Ocean)   7.4   157   -198   101
TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)   7.76   181   -214   102
Royal Lytham & St. Annes   7.55   167   -224   103
Pebble Beach   8.75   271   -224   104
Pinehurst No. 2   8.3   226   -249   105
Valderrama   7.21   145   -251   106
Spyglass Hill   7.29   150   -345   107

The only big mover in the rankings is Royal Melbourne (West). Based on the values Tom gave, the only course in the US worth spending a night in a $100 motel room in peak season is Pac Dunes. Thinking about things this way really casts a negative light on golf travel, huh?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 02:14:54 AM by JBovay »

Jud_T

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2014, 10:44:58 AM »
The point of the exercise is to showcase that there are great 6s, 7s and 8s that can be had for a reasonable price and, depending on one's preferences, are often more enjoyable than some of the big name tournament courses.  It puts into relief the silliness of the 'I played the Top 100' crowd.  If you can afford to drop $500 every Saturday to play Pebble and that floats your boat then you needn't concern yourself with this list.  The point for the broader golfing public is that the quality difference between 60 and 130 in the country is really pretty small and subjective but the price tag differential can be pretty large.  Plus there's a certain satisfaction to finding a hidden gem.  And one has to decide if you'd rather be the guy sporting a Whistling Straights cap, an Old Head Shirt, a Spyglass belt, a Doonbeg umbrella, a Medinah logo ball and a European Club ball mark or the guy with a rumpled old shirt from the Sacred Nine.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 08:12:01 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2014, 07:56:05 PM »
Honestly though, the way that scale jumps 8 to 10 is crazy.  


Sure it's crazy, for the economic means of 95% of people.  But many golfers are in that last 5% and that's who the prices are set for.

I was thinking more in terms of the value placed on a so called 10, 9 or 8.  These are merely opinions on which many people can and do disagree.  I tend to have a cut-off no matter how good the course is.  That isn't to say I wouldn't pay above that price point to see some selected courses, but it does mean I won't go back to many expensive places unless they really impress.  Looking at the courses, the cut-off seems to be about £125/$200, but I generally think of $100 as the point where I seriously question the bang for buck.  And to be honest, the older I get, the more cynical I become about what golf costs.  Golf green fees is classic badge engineering, BMW can't do it any better.  Thats why Jud's list appeals.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 07:58:37 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

BCowan

Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2014, 08:09:43 PM »
Jud,

   How about creating a 201-300 list???  Would that be a Doak 5/6?  Hidden Gems are where it's at...  
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 08:21:18 PM by BCowan »

BHoover

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2014, 08:22:34 PM »
Hidden Gems are where it's at... 

Sure, we all like hidden gems, I get that. But if I'm given those choice of playing Billy Joe Unknown Golf Course or a Chicago Golf Club, a Crystal Downs or a Shinnecock, it's not that tough of a choice for me.

BCowan

Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2014, 08:24:49 PM »
Hidden Gems are where it's at... 

Sure, we all like hidden gems, I get that. But if I'm given those choice of playing Billy Joe Unknown Golf Course or a Chicago Golf Club, a Crystal Downs or a Shinnecock, it's not that tough of a choice for me.

CD and Shinny would be great, dah!  Hidden gems are just as much fun IMHO.  I want to play Lawsonia and Yale just as much...

BHoover

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2014, 08:26:20 PM »
Hidden Gems are where it's at... 

Sure, we all like hidden gems, I get that. But if I'm given those choice of playing Billy Joe Unknown Golf Course or a Chicago Golf Club, a Crystal Downs or a Shinnecock, it's not that tough of a choice for me.

CD and Shinny would be great, dah!  Hidden gems are just as much fun IMHO.  I want to play Lawsonia and Yale just as much...

Not sure they'd be as much fun as the one chance to play something world class.

Now back to the Blue Jackets game...

Jud_T

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2014, 10:37:21 PM »
Brian,

Obviously once in a lifetime rounds at the best of the best are great.  Not exactly earth shattering news.  But how great?  Would you rather play 1 round at Pebble, 2 at Pac Dunes, 6 at Lawsonia or 12 at Wild Horse?  It's a very personal case by case thing but it's an attempt to put some rigor to value instead of just being another belt notcher at any cost.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 01:24:29 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BHoover

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2014, 10:38:49 PM »
Brian,

Obviously once in a lifetime rounds at the best of the best is great.  Not exactly earth shattering news.  But how great?  Would you rather play 1 round at Pebble, 2 at Pac Dunes, 6 at Lawsonia or 12 at Wild Horse?  It's a very personal case by case thing but it's an attempt to put some rigor to value instead of just being another belt notcher at any cost.

Fair enough point. I'd rather play more golf than less golf.

BCowan

Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2015, 09:00:39 AM »
This is a very good thread.  I think Mid Pines should be on the list, but the question is since peek rates are $175-225 now, but drop down to $60 in late November do you take that in account?  Summer rates might be less too.  Still i would think it is a Doak 8-8.5 post restoration.

Southern Pines should def. be on the list imo.  

World Woods pine barrens?  Would anyone consider it a Doak 6.5?

Any other courses that break into the list?  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 09:27:54 AM by BCowan »

Jud_T

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2015, 10:30:39 AM »
BC,

We used the High Season Weekend Unaccompanied rate, so it probably would be somewhere toward the lower end of the list.  There are plenty of courses that offer good value for really good golf off-season, i.e. Bandon, but this is about really good golf for the $$'s year-round, not about bargains or special deals, which of course are always worth seeking out.

P.S. World Woods is on the list at #22
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 10:57:00 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2015, 10:57:29 AM »
Charlevoix Municipal-Charlevoix, MI
Midland Valley-Graniteville, SC
Great Dunes and Oleander Course-Jekyll Island, GA
Hard Labor Creek-Madison GA
Washington-Wilkes CC-Washington, GA

as a few examples


Affordable and architecturally interesting golf is probably more abundant than you think if you just take the time to visit some courses with an open mind. 



Jeff Doerr

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Re: Unofficial Best GCA/Dollar You Can Play Top 100 Ranking (Revised!)
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2015, 11:50:23 PM »
Thanks Jud - very cool list.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

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