[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Forest Park would unequivocally be Raynor's first solo design.

Now, first original design, not renovating and existing layout, is most likely Westhampton CC, but there is a noticeable amount of Macdonald in that design, that is also missing many of Raynor's trademark features, such as a thumbprint or horseshoe in the Short Hole green..


For the research I compiled for the Shoreacres book, I believe the first true Raynor course to open was the first nine holes at Mountain Lake 1-6-16-18 of the current routing, in 1917. Blind Brook was bunkered a year after Raynor left so I don't consider that a true Raynor. I also see a lot of Macdonald in that design. Shoreacres and CC Fairfield opened the same month in 1921. The Raynor routing for Shoreacres dates to 1917, construction delayed by the First World War.

[Rick Lane]

CC Fairfield website, and other history in town says Oliver Jennings left Brooklawn in 1914 and hired Raynor that year, but it took 7 years (!) to haul in the fill to build CCF, to 1921.   Its been touched a lot by Tillinghast, and RTJ, maybe others.   On a GCA thread about Biarritz holes, I posted a picture of the old Biarritz there, that they abandoned, the greensite of which is still intact in the middle of what is now 10th fairway.   Bummer.....

[V. Kmetz]

Add Blind Brook (Purchase/Rye Brook NY - 1917)  to the list that the thread/SveN had developed as of Post #53... perhaps the most unique, unstudied, unheralded Raynor out there.


cheers  vk

[Tim Martin]

Add Blind Brook (Purchase/Rye Brook NY - 1917)  to the list that the thread/SveN had developed as of Post #53... perhaps the most unique, unstudied, unheralded Raynor out there.


cheers  vk

VK-I met a guy a number of years ago that told me that back in the day(1950,60,70,s) that everyone wanted to be in the caddie ranks at Blind Brook as it was double the rate or noticeably more than the surrounding clubs in Westchester and Fairfield Counties. I wonder if that is accurate or semi-accurate? Although I know you don't go back to the 50's and 60's you have a tremendous amount of insight into the caddie operations at said clubs. Thank you.

[Sven Nilsen]

Add Blind Brook (Purchase/Rye Brook NY - 1917)  to the list that the thread/SveN had developed as of Post #53... perhaps the most unique, unstudied, unheralded Raynor out there.


cheers  vk

VK -


That list contained in post #53 (which was first posted much earlier in the thread) was a list of courses to be added to the list contained in post #2, which does contain Blind Brook.  Between the two you get a fairly comprehensive account.


Sven

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Blind Brook's caddie fees are not at the top of the Fairfield County group, from what caddies have told me, and I played there about two months ago.


If you were to walk Blind Brook, much like Westhampton, you would recognize certain Raynor features but I doubt you would come off the course thinking it was a pure Raynor design. Unlike, CC Fairfield which just eviscerated portions of the layout including abandoning the Biarritz as Rick pointed out.


Blind Brook appears to only have had minimal alterations over the years. According to the club history, member Findlay Douglas and a pro whose name escapes me at this moment, was in charge of putting in all the fairway bunkers. I suspect he did some greenside ones as well, since they do not appear to be like any Raynor bunkers I have seen.


You can see a 1934 aerial of the course through the state of Connecticut website. There was also a private course that bordered Blind Brook at the time and I've never found any info on it. It does not appear to be a Raynor.


Scroll down for the 1934 button... http://magic.lib.uconn.edu/mash_up/aerial_index.html


AP

[Sven Nilsen]

Wasn't just any pro, the guy was George Low.


If the private course you're talking about is the one below Blind Brook on the aerial, the properties to the south of Blind Brook when the land was purchased belonged to Richard Croker Jr. and Irving Lehmann.


Sven

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Nice find on the Forest Park course!


Here is an article from The Evening Post-January 7, 1916 describing Findlay Douglas, Raynor and Donald Ross examining the land at Blind Brook.





Tony,


Regarding the bunkering of the course, wasn't Findlay Douglas a good friend of C.B. Macdonald?  Douglas was part of the committee that helped Macdonald when he was building the National Golf Links.  Wouldn't he be a perfect person to recommend placement of the bunkers on the course? Wasn't Findlay Douglas also responsible for bunkering Nassau and Greenwich as well?  Macdonald mentioned that Lido was never as great as it could have been, because no one was there to watch the course and make recommendations on how to improve the course.  To Macdonald, it seems the ideal course could only be attained over time, under a watchful eye.


I don't feel like the placing of bunkers by Findlay really takes away from the architects intent, especially when the person placing them knows the architects intent or philosophy.  Of course, that is just my opinion.


Bret

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bret:


Douglas did know Macdonald but what does that have to do with bunkering? I knew Geoffrey Cornish and wouldn't bunker a course they way he would.


 TO my eye the fairway and some greenside bunkering at Blind Brook is no way indicative of Raynor in placement or style. The fact that Raynor had no input in the placement of the bunkers, the bunkers were located after the course was played for a year or so and members had input where the hazards would be placed means to me it is not a 100 percent Raynor golf course.


Douglas was an original member of NGLA, I believe, but I've never known it that he had an active role in the design. I can't speak to his bunkering of Greenwich but the research the club has seems to indicate that Macdonald, with Raynor on the ground, rebunkered that course and made little or no alterations to greens.


Sven, I'll bite, who are Richard Croker Jr. and Irving Lehmann?

[Sven Nilsen]

No idea, but if you want to start looking into whose private course that was, those are good names to start with.

[Bret Lawrence]

Bret:


Douglas did know Macdonald but what does that have to do with bunkering? I knew Geoffrey Cornish and wouldn't bunker a course they way he would.


 TO my eye the fairway and some greenside bunkering at Blind Brook is no way indicative of Raynor in placement or style. The fact that Raynor had no input in the placement of the bunkers, the bunkers were located after the course was played for a year or so and members had input where the hazards would be placed means to me it is not a 100 percent Raynor golf course.


Douglas was an original member of NGLA, I believe, but I've never known it that he had an active role in the design. I can't speak to his bunkering of Greenwich but the research the club has seems to indicate that Macdonald, with Raynor on the ground, rebunkered that course and made little or no alterations to greens.


Sven, I'll bite, who are Richard Croker Jr. and Irving Lehmann?

Tony,


Sometimes I wish Cornish let you bunker a few courses around CT!


I agree that what's on the ground isn't 100% Raynor, if he didn't bunker it, or if it wasn't built with his blessing.


The question it raises for me is whether it was the architects intent to wait a few years to place the bunkers?  If it wasn't the architects intent, then why didn't he build the bunkers before they grassed the course? 


I understand your point of view about qualifying it as not 100% Raynor.  I just get the feeling that when people mention Raynor not bunkering the course in his original plans it's viewed in a negative connotation.  Wasn't waiting a few years to bunker part of their philosophy?  (At least on some of their courses?).


I realize some courses may have suffered because they were perhaps misled or not led at all, but you and VK have been raving about Blind Brook, so they must have done something right and being not 100% Raynor may be part of it? 


I was not trying to say Findlay Douglas was an architect or even helped design NGLA.  I was pointing out that he was one of the well respected Amateur Champions who was by Macdonalds side during the formation of his club from start to finish and many years after that!


I guess my point is that I would have felt very comfortable leaving the bunker placement in the hands of Findlay Douglas on a Macdonald or Raynor design in 1916!






Bret

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I swear I have never bunkered a Cornish layout!


I don't rave about Blind Brook. I think it's worth seeing, but it in no way approaches Raynor's best layouts. It has a really weird Redan that I haven't been able to determine if it was modified or the original.


It was not Raynor's intent to wait a year, but rather the club's, according to their history book. Other than Blind Brook, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a Raynor design that where he waited a year or two to bunker it.

[Jack Carney]

Now all we need is someone to take all this great info and sift it all into one definitive list!!

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I'm close, Jack. Give me a little more time.


T

[Sven Nilsen]

While Anthony's working on his list, here's all of the courses noted in this thread.

Let me know if there are any corrections.

Augusta CC Lake Course aka Bon-Air Vanderbilt Hotel GC (Augusta, GA), 1925
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club aka Crooked Lake Golf & Yacht Club (Babson Park, FL), 1920
Bellport GC (Bellport, NY), 1915
Berwind Porto (Puerto Rico), ??
Blind Brook Club (Purchase, NY), 1916
Blowing Rock CC aka Green Park-Norwood GC (Blowing Rock, NC), 1923
Blue Mound CC (Milwaukee, WI), 1924
Brookville CC (Glen Head, NY), 1921
Camargo Club (Cincinnati, OH), 1923
Charleston, CC of (Charleston, SC), 1924
Chicago GC (Wheaton, IL), 1921
Coral Keys Club (Englewood, FL), 1923 – Design Only
Cow Neck CC (Southampton, NY), 1922 – Design Only
Cragin Park GC (Palm Beach, FL), 1925 - Design Only
Crawford CC (Crawford, NY), 1923
Creek Club (Locust Valley, NY), 1922
Cypress Point Club (Pebble Beach, CA), 1925 – Design Only
Dedham Country & Polo Club (Dedham, MA), 1923
Deepdale GC (Great Neck, NY), 1925
Edward S. Moore Estate GC (Roslyn, NY), 1924
Elkridge Hunt Club (Baltimore, MD), 1923
Essex County CC East Course (West Orange, NJ), 1925
Essex Fells CC (Essex Fells, NJ), 1923
Everglades Club (Palm Beach, FL), 1919 & 1924
Fairfield, CC of (Fairfield, CT), 1914 & 1921
Fishers Island GC (Fishers Island, NY), 1925
Fishers Island GC Second Course (Fishers Island, NY), 1925 - Design Only
Forest Park GC (St. Louis, MO), 1912
Fox Chapel GC (Pittsburgh, PA), 1923
Gardiner’s Bay CC (Gardiner’s Bay, NY), 1915
Gibson Island GC (Gibson Island, MD), 1921
Gibson Island GC Second Course (Gibson Island, MD), 1921 - Design Only
Grand Hotel GC (??), 1920’s
Greenbrier No. 1 Course (White Sulphur Springs, WV), 1913 & 1922
Greenbrier No. 3 Course (White Sulphur Springs, WV), 1921
Greenwich CC (Greenwich, CT), 1915
Hay Harbor Club (Fishers Island, NY), c. 1918 - Design Only
Hollywood GC (Deal, NJ),??
Hotchkiss School (Lakeville, CT), 1923
J. P. Knapp Estate Course (Southampton, NY), 1920’s
Knollwood CC (Elmswood, NY), 1925
Lake Wales Municipal GC (Lake Wales, FL), 1925
Lido GC (Long Beach, NY), 1914
Links Club (Roslyn, NY), 1918
Lookout Mountain GC (Lookout Mountain, GA), 1925
Maidstone Club (East Hampton, NY), 1916 & 1922
Metairie GC (New Orleans, LA), 1921
Mid Ocean Club (Bermuda)
Mid Pacific CC aka Kailua CC (Honolulu, HI), 1925
Midland Hills CC (St. Paul, MN), 1919
Minnesota Valley CC (Bloomington, MN), 1921
Misquamicut GC (Westerly, RI), 1913
Monterrey Peninsula CC Dunes Course (Pebble Beach, CA), 1924
Monterrey Peninsula CC Shore Course (Pebble Beach, CA), 1924 – Design Only
Morris County GC (Morristown, NJ), 1916
Mountain Lake Club (Lake Wales, FL), 1915 & 1920
Nassau CC (Glen Cove, NY), 1915
North Palm Beach CC aka Palm Beach Winter Club (North Palm Beach, FL), 1925
North Shore CC aka Glenwood CC (Glen Head, NY), 1914 & 1923
Oakland GC (Bayside, NY), 1919
Ocean Links aka T. Suffern Tailer Private Course (Newport, RI), 1919
Oheka GC aka Cold Spring Harbor CC aka Otto Kahn Estate Course (Cold Spring Harbor, NY), 1922
Olympic Club (San Francisco, CA), 1917 – Design Only
Payne Whitney Estate Course aka Greentree Course (Manhasset, NY), 1915
Piping Rock Club (Locust Valley, NY), 1911
Porto Rico CC aka Condado GC (Puerto Rico), 1919
Riddles Bay G&CC (Bermuda), ??
Rock Spring CC (West Orange, NJ), 1925
Roselle GC (Roselle, NJ), 1925
Santa Barbara CC (Santa Barbara, CA), 1917 – Design Only
Sequoyah CC  (Oakland, CA), 1917 – Consultation
Shinnecock Hills GC (Southampton, NY), 1915
Shoreacres GC (Lake Bluff, IL), 1916
Sleepy Hollow CC (Scarboro-On-Hudson, NY), 1911
Somerset CC (St. Paul, MN), 1919
Southampton GC (Southampton, NY), 1925
Statesville CC (Statesville, NC), 1926
St. Louis CC (St. Louis, MO), 1912
Suffolk CC (Bellport, NY), 1915 – Consultation
Sunningdale CC (Scarsdale, NY), 1916
Taft School (Watertown, CT), 1923
Thousand Islands Club (Alexandria Bay, NY), 1922
Waialae CC (Honolulu, HI), 1925
Wanumetonomy CC (Middleton, RI), 1921 & 1923
Westhampton CC (Westhampton, NY), 1914
William E. Stauffer Estate GC (New Orleans, LA), 1921
Women’s National G&CC aka Glen Head CC (Glen Head, NY), 1922
Yale University GC (New Haven, CT), 1923
Yale University GC Second Course (New Haven, CT), 1923 – Design Only
Yeamans Hall CC (Charleston, SC), 1925
Yeamans Hall CC Second Course (Charleston, SC), 1925 - Design Only

[Nigel Islam]

Sven,


Should the Taft School course be on there?


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58371.msg1371315.html#msg1371315

[Nigel Islam]

Sven,


    I also seem to remember a second routing for Yeamans Hall hanging at the club?


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61040.msg1448535.html#msg1448535

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Taft School for sure.


Fishers also had a second routing that I think was close to being built. The Olmsted plans have alterations that occurred after Raynor died, which makes me think Banks was involved. My feeling is that Yale was never really intended to be 36 but that Raynor gave the university two routings to choose from, but I could be dead wrong.


I honestly don't know how to post photos anymore since Photobucket won't let me do it, otherwise I would try and put up the Fishers photo.


Oh, and speaking of Fishers, I recently found a  July 1897 newspaper article that has Thomas Bendelow visiting Fishers to lay out nine holes. If they were built that means Hay Harbor had  golf course earlier than what was previously thought. Raynor also laid out a course for Hay Harbor about seven years before Fishers Island Club began construction, but it was never built.

[V. Kmetz]

I swear I have never bunkered a Cornish layout!


I don't rave about Blind Brook. I think it's worth seeing, but it in no way approaches Raynor's best layouts. It has a really weird Redan that I haven't been able to determine if it was modified or the original.


It was not Raynor's intent to wait a year, but rather the club's, according to their history book. Other than Blind Brook, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a Raynor design that where he waited a year or two to bunker it.

I do rave about it, because its fun golf... because it is largely untouched...because it's template holes are unique takes on the standards we have come to appreciate...


As to caddies (someone asked)... in my 35 years of experience, it only sees 4000-5000 rounds a year...there's only 12-15 regular caddies (they call up anyone of a dozen nearby courses to fill out for the rare bigger event)... and the clientele/membership is made up of the heaviest hitters you can find, so the money flows nicely for that handful. In the 80s, it was literally caddie by appointment...the caddiemaster (no pro for many years)...you were rang a day or three before.


AP...do you have access to that club history...I'd like to examine it, if there is a way.


cheers   vk

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

VK


Email me about the Blind Brook history, AnthonyPioppi@gmail.com


By the way, the club has a golf pro again, first time I think since the 1950s.


AP

[MCirba]

Do we think Bendelow is responsible for Hay Harbor?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Mike:


Not sure. I need to check with Pierce Rafferty at the museum on Fishers Island. He wrote the Hay Harbor Club history. (I can't find my copy). The course that is there now is definitely not Bendelow's and Pierce has established who designed it.


AP

[Sven Nilsen]

Do we think Bendelow is responsible for Hay Harbor?

There was golf on Fishers Island at least as early as 1898. 


From all account the Hay Harbor Club wasn't founded until 1902.  It is possible the club was founded after the course (most likely associated with a hotel) was built.


Sven

[Bret Lawrence]

There was a course in Puerto Rico designed by Raynor in 1919.  The course was called the Porto Rico Country Club when it opened and later called Condado Golf Club. This course was associated with the Condado-Vanderbilt Hotel.  The hotel still exists today, but the course is long gone due to heavy development.  The advertisements of the day mentioned the course was located near the hotel on land between the ocean and the bay.   


As early as 1922, the course was referred to as Condado Golf Club in the golf guides.


The 1922-1929 American Annual Golf Guide lists one course in Puerto Rico at the time and it was Condado Golf Club.  Established in 1918, 9 holes, length of 3,210 yards, Par 36 with sand greens, 3 miles from the city. Directly below this listing was an advertisement for the Condado-Vanderbilt Hotel every year.


In the 1930-1931 American Annual Golf Guide there is also only one listing for Puerto Rico, but it is Berwind Country Club.  Berwind was established in 1930, had 9 holes, length of 3,035 yards, Par 35, with sand greens, 8 miles from the city.  No advertisements for the hotel included this year.


I don't know a lot about the history of these two courses, but they sound like they were two separate entities.


The first article below is from The Buffalo Express-September 6, 1919 mentioning the new Condado-Vanderbilt hotel, with a paragraph on the course and Raynor. The article is in column 6 about half way down the page.


The second clip below is from Golfer's Magazine-September 1920 (page 21) showing the "Beautiful Porto Rico Country Club at San Juan".  One of the pictures shows the Condado-Vanderbilt hotel and mentions the course is in connection with the hotel.

https://tinyurl.com/


https://tinyurl.com/yakgb3gr

[Bret Lawrence]

Two more quick clips on Raynors travels to Puerto Rico:


The Port Jefferson Echo-April 5, 1919:



The East Hampton Star-April 25, 1919



There was a prior article from March 14, 1919 mentioning Seth J. Raynor had left for Puerto Rico, but it didn't mention a golf course.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()