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john_stiles

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 11:09:54 AM »
Would like to annotate some courses like Doak, Nilsen, etc.  have done where that can be clearly done.

North Palm Beach CC in Florida is   [NLE]

The course was pretty much bull dozed by the village/county and now a Nicklaus signature course is there.  A lot of Raynor features were lost before the county decided to move on and build a Nicklaus in 2006 or so.

Oakland GC (NY) is  [NLE]

Ocean Links (RI)  is  [NLE]

Imagine George will soon get a better list up.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 11:13:53 PM by john_stiles »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 11:26:55 AM »
Would like to annotate some courses like Doak, Nilsen, etc.  have done where that can be clearly done.

North Palm Beach CC in Florida is   [NLE]

The course was pretty much bull dozed by the village/county and now a Nicklaus signature course is there.  A lot of Raynor features were lost before the county decided to move on and build a Nicklaus in 2006 or so.

Oakland GC (NY) is  [NLE]

Ocean Links (NY)  is  [NLE]

Imagine George will soon get a better list up.

Between the Keith's World Golf list, TD's Mac additions and the courses I noted, all of the known courses are there (that being said, I'm always interesting in being proven wrong when it comes to attributions).  If someone wants to compile the list into one post, I'd be happy to add in dates and other relevants facts (other archies involved, NLE, etc.).

Of course, if George chimes in, all the better.  As he noted in EofG, Raynor did not leave the trail of bread crumbs that many of his contemporaries provided in their records and journals, making his history tough to pin down.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2013, 11:28:44 AM »
Sven,

Raynor did not work on the University of Minnesota course, now called Les Bolstad. That was designed by Tom Vardon, then the White Bear Yacht Club pro who did a number of courses in this part of the world. Rick Shefchik talks about this in his book on Minnesota golf history.

Raynor did design Midland Hills Country Club, which is basically across the street from the U of M course. The initial membership was composed largely of people with ties to the university. It was also initially called "University of Minnesota Golf Club." The club changed its name to Midland Hills in 1922.

This is where the confusion comes from.

And just to clarify, neither Les Bolstad or Midland Hills is the same as Minnesota Valley. That is also a Raynor course, located in the Minneapolis suburb of Bloomington.

There are three Raynors in Minnesota: Somerset, Midland Hills and Minnesota Valley.

Here's info from the Midland Hills website:

THE TRADITION
“Remember that our club is still in the making and that we want to make it such a club that because of the physical exercise in the open, because of the good friendship and good sportsmanship, you are a better companion, more efficient in your daily life and a greater source of happiness in the family circle.”
                 - 1920 Annual Meeting Notice

The “Roaring Twenties” had just begun when a group of University of Minnesota professors and local business leaders met to develop plans for a new 18-hole golf course on farm land adjacent to the University’s St. Paul campus.  As golf was exploding in popularity across the United States after World War I, members of the recently formed University Club were looking to expand their “playground.”

Consider the era:  In St. Paul, Vaudeville acts were still popular at the Orpheum Theater.  The St. Paul Saints were in first place ahead of the Minneapolis Millers and F. Scott Fitzgerald published his first novel, This Side of Paradise.  Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen were the top golfers in the land and Babe Ruth had just been sold to the New York Yankees for $125,000.

It was during this period that Midland Hills was born!

The Golf Club was initially established almost entirely by a group of faculty members of the University of Minnesota.  On July 15, 1915, as a 'voluntary, unincorporated University of Minnesota Golf Club' they leased ground for a golf course from Mr. and Mrs. John G. Barrett.

The lease from the Barretts was only for five years and in 1919 it became advisable to negotiate for a renewal.  The group hoped to get a renewal of the lease for a period of twenty years.  However, Barrett's attorney thought that there was to be a large industrial development in the region and therefore advised them against a renewal of the lease for any extended period.  Therefore the Club failed to obtain the renewal of the the Barrett lease.
In the meantime, they decided to incorporate. The Articles of Incorporation were drawn up in December 1919 and made official in January of 1920.

At that time, the nearby 110 acre Walsh farm was available for a lease and they executed a 20 year lease on this property.  Additionally, 40 acres of attractive land adjacent to the Walsh farm was leased from a Mr. Andersen.  These two tracts of land were frequently referred to as the West 110 and the East 40.

Coincidentally, an architect named Seth Raynor, a Princeton graduate and Long Island surveyor, was building the Somerset golf course in St. Paul, Minnesota and after viewing the rolling hills of the future Midland Hills, agreed to lay-out the course for $1500.  Raynor was also the protege of the great Charles Blair Macdonald, one of the most famous golf architects.  A Professor at the University of Minnesota completed the topographical map for $300.

Building of the course was begun July 15, 1920.  The Walsh farmhouse was converted into the first Clubhouse in 1921 at a cost of $5,000.  A founding member and University mathematics professor, Ralph Barton, supervised the course construction.  A crew of local laborers was organized—thirty-three men and three teams of horses.  Rocks were removed, often by hand.  An old tractor was used to shape tees while the crew dug the bunkers.  Greens were raked and covered with topsoil.  The club held work festivals so members could pitch in with the project.

Midland’s golf course opened for play on July 23, 1921.  It was a hot and humid Saturday afternoon with temperatures in the upper 80s.  It was reported that 72 golfers played in the first tournament while reporters from the St. Paul Pioneer Press covered the event.

The increasing interest in golf in the Twin Cities area was so great that the Club encountered relatively little difficulty in filling up its membership from the business and professional community.  The preponderance of non-faculty members made the title of "University of Minnesota Golf Club" a misnomer and a less restrictive name seemed desirable.  The Board of Governors requested suggestions for a new name from its members.  Among those suggested were:  Allermiur, Kabekowa, Midland Hills, Midmoreland, Rosetown, and Waveland.  The membership voted overwhelmingly in favor of Midland Hills Country Club.  The change of name was formally recorded by the Secretary of State on April 21, 1922.

Midland’s golf course is noted for its rolling hills, undulating greens and fine putting surfaces.  The course underwent a significant renovation in 2001 and was lengthened in 2005.  The course is playable by all levels of golfers.  For those who like a challenge, the course now stretches to over 6,800 yards from the back tees.  The course has been the site of many competitions, including the 2006 Minnesota State Amateur Championship.

The initial membership fee was set at $50, with annual dues of $25 per year.  The initial guest green fees were fifty cents on weekdays and $1.00 on weekends and Holidays.  Some items of interest and of trivia which have been excerpted from the Minutes Books of the Board of Governors meetings and members annual meetings from the beginning of the Club to the present time are as follows.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:42:53 AM by Jeff Shelman »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2013, 11:41:23 AM »
Jeff:

Thanks.  Differentiating the orig. U. of M. course (l/k/a Midland Hills) from the Les Bolstad course clears up the question. 

Was this Barton's first foray into GCA?  Seems like the pairing worked out pretty well, as Barton continued to work with Raynor and went on to a fairly nice career in the business.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2013, 11:47:17 AM »
One other thing after looking at the Les Bolstad website, that course was "established" in 1929, several years after Midland Hills was up and running and after the death of Raynor.

It appears that all three Raynors in Minnesota were built between 1919 and 1924.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:01:05 PM by Jeff Shelman »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 11:57:50 AM »
Bill:

I've deleted it from the list in my post above.

Unfortunately, Hackensack isn't covered in any great detail in the Evangelist of Golf, although George does note the dates 1925-1927.  To satisfy my own curiosity, what dates did you come up with in your research for the land purchase/interview (I'm guessing mid-1926)?  Not trying to play devil's advocate.

I do know that there are a few courses that were designed and/or started by Raynor that were completed by Banks after his death.  Not saying that Hackensack was one of those, but perhaps the existence of that model lent some credence to the idea that Raynor was involved there at all.

Second question, with respect to the original course, did Bendelow do the first nine, the second nine, or both?

Sven


Sven,

This is actually a pretty cool story, if you are a GCA nerd like many of us :)

I first met George Bahto when he visited our course about ten years ago and indicated that he thought Raynor may have routed it, and Banks built the course. That was a fascinating premise, so I went about the process of determining if, in fact, Hackensack should be listed as a Raynor.

I spent a couple of Saturdays in the Hackensack (city) library reading years of old newspapers on microfiche. It was really cool, many of the headines talked about the construction of the New Hudson River Bridge. (Later named George Washington Bridge. It was built with one level, but designned to accept a second level below for the expected growth in train traffic...)

I was looking for any possible reference to Raynor routing the course. I discovered many articles depicting a tax dispute between the City of Hackensack and the Hackensack Golf Club. We finally won an appeal setting the value at about $300,000 and then sold the property to a developer for an amount more than double that, higher than the City thought it should be valued...

It all happened quickly: HGC merged with with Kinderkamack Club on August 6, 1926, (we took in their 70 members and acquired about 400 acres and a rudimetary 9 holes course.) The HGC Board minutes of 11/15/26 indicate Banks was chosen as the architect and sent to Oradell to conduct his survey and draw up plans. (He beat out Tillinghast and Stiles & Van Kleek.) Raynor had died 1/23/26, well before any of this occurred.

Bendelow did all 18 holes of the course in Hackensack city, as far as I can tell.

We sold that property to a developer named McFadden. The newspapers quickly had full page ads for "Garden Suburbs, a highly restricted community." We held the note, and he paid us as properties were sold. All went well for a few years, we built 18 of the 27 holes Banks laid out, and our Wendehack clubhouse, until the stock market crashed and we stopped getting paid... I think we stopped paying the builder and settled with his wife years later...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:03:52 PM by Bill Brightly »

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 12:06:41 PM »
A couple of follow up questions/thoughts for the group:

1.  For Dedham, the Ross Society lists his work as a new course replacing the original 1897 Findlay layout.  Was the Raynor course a new design (and if so was it on the same land or a new plot) or a renovation of the Ross course?

2.  Did Raynor work on the University of Minnesota GC (aka Les Bolstad)?

3.  For Green Park - Norwood (aka Blowing Rock CC), the Ross Society has him working there a few years prior to Raynor.  Were these different courses, or did they bring Raynor in shortly after Ross added 9 new holes, which seems a little odd?

4.  I've seen listings for Bayside CC in Rhode Island attributed to Raynor, does anyone have any additional information on this course?


5.  There have been several theories bantered about around here regarding the Mac/Raynor connections to the upper crust of NY Society.  The number of private/estate courses on his resume (including Ocean Links in RI, North Palm Beach and a few others) seems to suggest that he was the go to guy for this type of project.

Keith:

Raynor and Vaughn expanded Maidstone in 1916 and Raynor modified the course in 1922.  I believe it took on its current form when Willie and John Park revised 11 holes in 1925.  I'm curious as to why the club saw the need to redo the course in 1925, only 9 years after Raynor's initial work.

Nigel:

Deepdale is NLE (as are many of the courses noted).  The easiest way to track it in this thread is that the World golf list seems to be comprised of courses that still exist). 

Sven

Sven,

Tony Pioppi and I looked into "Bayside CC" over the past summer.  We found the course in Rhode Island under an apartment complex, however the historical records showed the course wasnt built until the 1940s.  We both did some more research and concluded that Whiten/Cornish made a mistake in giving Raynor credit.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:24:29 PM by Alex Lagowitz »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 12:08:11 PM »
Bill:

Thanks for the story.  Another example of how even the best sources can become outdated as new information comes to light.  As for the Bendelow question, I have a 9 hole course originally laid out in 1899 with 9 holes being added some time before 1916.  Seeing as the two 9's were built at different times, I wondered if Bendelow was responsible for both.

Also, no need to ask the guy compiling a list of all golf architecture work done before 1940 in the U.S. if he is a GCA nerd.  My only issue is that the scope of the project is so broad I need the geeks like you to help fill in some of the details.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2013, 12:14:09 PM »
Alex:

I think the only reference I've seen to it was in C&W, and that wouldn't be the first mistake or omission from that resource.  I always wondered if this was somehow a confused citation to Raynor's work at Oakland GC in Bayside, NY.

Curious as to where it was located in RI, and also how the hell you could find anything beneath an apartment complex.  Sounds like some crack research.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Carl Nichols

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 02:55:36 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the responses. 

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2013, 03:57:54 PM »
Alex:

I think the only reference I've seen to it was in C&W, and that wouldn't be the first mistake or omission from that resource.  I always wondered if this was somehow a confused citation to Raynor's work at Oakland GC in Bayside, NY.

Curious as to where it was located in RI, and also how the hell you could find anything beneath an apartment complex.  Sounds like some crack research.

Sven

Sven,

Tony and I did some deep research :)

When I saw it was listed in Rhode Island, I did an aerial research and saw the course was NLE and that an apartment complex was built over the old course.  I contacted Tony, who did some digging and contacted some people himself.  He discovered that the course called Bayside CC in Rhode Island was built after 1940 and we have an aerial that shows the course around then.  While not a Raynor course, it did have a unique island green among a sea of sand.


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 04:02:51 PM »

Tony Pioppi and I looked into "Bayside CC" over the past summer.  We found the course in Rhode Island under an apartment complex, however the historical records showed the course wasnt built until the 1940s.  We both did some more research and concluded that Whiten/Cornish made a mistake in giving Raynor credit.

That's interesting. There is an aerial photo of Bayside dating from 1938.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 04:10:47 PM »
Alex:

I think the only reference I've seen to it was in C&W, and that wouldn't be the first mistake or omission from that resource.  I always wondered if this was somehow a confused citation to Raynor's work at Oakland GC in Bayside, NY.

Curious as to where it was located in RI, and also how the hell you could find anything beneath an apartment complex.  Sounds like some crack research.

Sven



Sven,

Tony and I did some deep research :)

When I saw it was listed in Rhode Island, I did an aerial research and saw the course was NLE and that an apartment complex was built over the old course.  I contacted Tony, who did some digging and contacted some people himself.  He discovered that the course called Bayside CC in Rhode Island was built after 1940 and we have an aerial that shows the course around then.  While not a Raynor course, it did have a unique island green among a sea of sand.



Warwick?  If so, I think I found the spot.  You can almost make out the playing corridors even with all the development.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 04:27:50 PM »
Jim,

Maybe it was built in 1930s, I'll have to check what Tony sent me.  Regardless, it was after both Raynor and Banks had passed.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2013, 04:41:54 PM »
Not doubting it's post-Raynor or Banks. There are a few interesting greens.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George_Bahto

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2013, 10:36:57 PM »
Carl Nichols: “a definitive listing of Seth Raynor golf courses”

Oh yeah - I’ve been working on that for about 15 years now and the list goes on and on and on.

I have seen articles/quotes by Macdonald stating how many course SR built - can’t remember the number right now but I’m nowhere near that number.

In an article in the Olympian magazine during the time Raynor was designing the original course (never built) for them, the author was told the a number of Raynor designs - that was 1918 and that too was mind-boggling.

OK, Charlie Macdonald may have been prone to exaggeration but certainly Raynor was not.

I have turned up nearly 30 courses he never was credited for building and they keep popping up.

Even that little Charleston muni down the street from CC of Charleston. They are all over the place and it has been fun turning them up.

Tony Pioppi and I visited Dedfham and lo and behold !! - we all know the North Shore CC story now.

Even the early building of Nassua CC on Long Island by Raynor, later done over by Strong. That was a tough one for me because in that area there are man Raynor-bilts or designs; Creek, Piping Rock, Brookville, North Shore etc ........ I could never figure out why not Raynor at Nassau. The Joe Bausch uncovering all that stuff in the Brooklyn Eagle and there is was, Not kust one hole but the whole course (for a while, anyhow).

About the reference to Bayside, in RI: I think it is referencing the present Wanumetonomy Golf & Country Club - probably listed as Bayside - cause it is at bay side.

That course was paid for by the famous T Suffern Tailer of Ocean Links fame.

An article written quoting CBM at the time they were building Mid Ocean states Riddles Bay, although Dev Emmett is the recognized archie. Dev often acted as a hi-voltage construction foreman of sorts for Macdonald andf Raynor I assume. He was ver close to Macdonald, even helping him accumulate the drawing of the famous holes in Europe before building National.

So there is no “official” list for publication at this point - I’m sure I’ll have more when I’m done. (This has bee real fun for me)      

Even at Greenbrier, Raynor built one of the short courses and perhaps two of them.

Aside: I wonder why WorldGolf has Sleepy Hollow a 9 hole Macdonald

Don’t mis understand the list of Macdonald courses in the Evangelist of Golf - that book was to define some of the course built by Macdonald - nothing reflecting Raynor, although there a couple cases in th Macdonald list that were more Raynor than CBM or all Raynor)

Sven asked: “Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?” - how could I do that - he didn’t design anything there

Augusta was Raynor at one time. The Bon Air Vanderbilt’s ads in the day listed the course as such - SR was to have built the second course but that was put off for a long time -

Keith: yes Raynor visited Maidstone twice - first on the original expansion with Vaughn, then again in 1922.      

We also have interesting things like: Misquamicut Club - Raynor 5-holes (fm Pioppi reseqrch)

also: Capt. H C Tippett  w/ advice fm C B Macdonald 1927

Newport CC paid Raynor $500 for something or another (a visit?)

Of course Shinnecock Macdonald and Raynor 1916 thru 1930-31

Whitney, H P, Private Estate Course NLE    9 holes  1922 (even have a few airplane shots of that course. It was an expanded version of the 3-green practice gcourse he built for his friend Eddie Moore

regards - been busy “working”   - hah

George
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

corey miller

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2013, 04:18:09 PM »


Just keep workiing Bahto!!!!! ;D

paul cowley

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2013, 10:09:00 PM »
Whoa...based on this it's going to be an effort in the future to sort my stuff...good luck, don't ask, still in progress  :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2013, 03:19:38 PM »
George,

Looking forward to the Raynor/Banks book coming to fruition.

Best of luck on the rest of your research and book writing/publishing details.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2013, 09:50:41 PM »
Add these to the list

Sven,

I've put a red asterik next to the club's where I have questions about Raynor's involvement.

Maybe George can enlighten me as to the work produced


Augusta CC (GA)
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club (FL) - NLE
Bellport GC (NY)
Berwind Porto (PR) - NLE
Chicago GC (IL) - as noted by TD
Cow Neck CC (NY) - original Southampton plan - never built
Crawford County Club (NY) - redesign
Cypress Point Club (CA) - routing
Dedham Country & Polo Club (MA)
Deepdale G&CC (NY)
Essex County CC (East) (NJ)*
Essex Fells CC (NJ)*
Fishers Island Club (NY)
Gardiner's Bay CC (NY)
Gibson Island GC (MD)
Grand Hotel GC (NY)
Green Park - Norwood GC (NC)
Greenbrier (Lakeside) (WV) - redesign
Hotchkiss School GC (CT)
Kahn Estate (NY)
Knapp Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Knollwood CC (NY)
Lido Club (NY)
Links Club (NY)
Maidstone GC (NY)
Minnesota Valley CC (MN)
Moore Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Nassau CC (NY) - Hole 5 - Eden
North Palm Beach CC (for Paris Singer) (FL)
North Shore CC (NY)
Oakland GC (NY)
Ocean Links (NY)
Olympic Club (Lake) (CA) - hired, drew plans, never built
Piping Rock Club (NY)
Riddles Bay G&CC (Ber)
Rock Spring CC (NJ)
Rumson CC (NJ)*
Santa Barbara GC (CA) - plans submitted
Sequoyah CC of Oakland - plans submitted
Shinnecock Hills GC (NY)
St. Louis CC (MO)
Statesville CC (NC)
Stauffer Estate (LA)
Westchester Hills GC (NY) - Raynor drew plans, unknown if he built the course or if his plans were used.
Whitney Estate (NY)
Women's National G&CC (NY) - advisor to Hollins, course built by D. Emmet
Yale University GC (CT)

Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?



Alex Lagowitz

Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2013, 10:15:08 PM »
Add these to the list

Sven,

I've put a red asterik next to the club's where I have questions about Raynor's involvement.

Maybe George can enlighten me as to the work produced


Augusta CC (GA)
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club (FL) - NLE
Bellport GC (NY)
Berwind Porto (PR) - NLE
Chicago GC (IL) - as noted by TD
Cow Neck CC (NY) - original Southampton plan - never built
Crawford County Club (NY) - redesign
Cypress Point Club (CA) - routing
Dedham Country & Polo Club (MA)
Deepdale G&CC (NY)
Essex County CC (East) (NJ)*
Essex Fells CC (NJ)*
Fishers Island Club (NY)
Gardiner's Bay CC (NY)
Gibson Island GC (MD)
Grand Hotel GC (NY)
Green Park - Norwood GC (NC)
Greenbrier (Lakeside) (WV) - redesign
Hotchkiss School GC (CT)
Kahn Estate (NY)
Knapp Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Knollwood CC (NY)
Lido Club (NY)
Links Club (NY)
Maidstone GC (NY)
Minnesota Valley CC (MN)
Moore Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Nassau CC (NY) - Hole 5 - Eden
North Palm Beach CC (for Paris Singer) (FL)
North Shore CC (NY)
Oakland GC (NY)
Ocean Links (NY)
Olympic Club (Lake) (CA) - hired, drew plans, never built
Piping Rock Club (NY)
Riddles Bay G&CC (Ber)
Rock Spring CC (NJ)
Rumson CC (NJ)*
Santa Barbara GC (CA) - plans submitted
Sequoyah CC of Oakland - plans submitted
Shinnecock Hills GC (NY)
St. Louis CC (MO)
Statesville CC (NC)
Stauffer Estate (LA)
Westchester Hills GC (NY) - Raynor drew plans, unknown if he built the course or if his plans were used.
Whitney Estate (NY)
Women's National G&CC (NY) - advisor to Hollins, course built by D. Emmet
Yale University GC (CT)

Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?



Patrick,

In the ECCC minutes, Raynor is listed as architect and his name is on the plan.  Raynor was hired in July 1925, and I saw a letter in our archives informing the club of Raynor's death, as well as Banks assuming Raynor's responsibilities.

For the second course, now the Byrne, only Banks was listed as architect.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2013, 10:28:35 PM »
Alex, my mistake, I got my directions mixed up and was thinking of the West.

Josh Tarble

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2013, 10:39:09 PM »
Waialae claims to have been designed by Raynor. What is the case there?  Did the redesign take away most of the Raynor?

Nigel Islam

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2013, 11:59:38 PM »
Waialae was origninally a Raynor, but I think the features have been softened over the years by work done on the course. I believe the nines have flipped. The current 17th was the redan, but at least on tv seems to have little slope at all.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Definitive List of Raynor Courses
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2013, 03:21:25 PM »


Sven asked: “Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?” - how could I do that - he didn’t design anything there




George:

The reason I asked is because you listed Raynor and Banks for a number of Raynor designs where Banks did the construction.  I would have thought that Raynor's role at NGLA may have been worthy of note under the same thought process.

Looking forward to seeing the updates of your work, whether in final production form or any additional finds that are noted along the way.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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