[Randy Thompson]

I donīt get it! Why would the developer switch architects after having so much success with the first development. I would like to hear what Paul has to say about this. I can understand spending extra money to create excitement for a new development and being tempted to go the signature route. But the snowball is formed and rolling downhill for this development and has an established International marketing name, which Paul and Davis were factors by creating a great course and at a reasonable price, I would imagine a good price, anyways. Tigerīs past design feeīs have not been lower then fifteen million and has no proven record. I imagine he had to lower these feeīs with his current market perception but even he lowered to something still ridiculous as two million (which I am sure the actual price is somewhat higher) for a developments second course that already is a destination. Sorry, but I cannot label this as, Good for Golf! I would be more inclined to label it as, "more of the same crap that factors largely into the current world wide golf crisis equation".

[Greg Tallman]

I donīt get it! Why would the developer switch architects after having so much success with the first development. I would like to hear what Paul has to say about this. I can understand spending extra money to create excitement for a new development and being tempted to go the signature route. But the snowball is formed and rolling downhill for this development and has an established International marketing name, which Paul and Davis were factors by creating a great course and at a reasonable price, I would imagine a good price, anyways. Tigerīs past design feeīs have not been lower then fifteen million and has no proven record. I imagine he had to lower these feeīs with his current market perception but even he lowered to something still ridiculous as two million (which I am sure the actual price is somewhat higher) for a developments second course that already is a destination. Sorry, but I cannot label this as, Good for Golf! I would be more inclined to label it as, "more of the same crap that factors largely into the current world wide golf crisis equation".

Randy,

The Dunes Course is "private"... off limits to all but those purchasing real estate from here forward save a few fractional home interests still available. Any future course and surrounding lodging/timeshare product must stand on its own.

I have little doubt Paul Cowley would have produced the best product for the money, sorry make that no doubt. In this market the sad fact is you need something to get the attention of the masses and "come see our great course you cannot play" does not work. Given the land in question I do not see any other name that even remotely "moves the needle".

Do those of us who understand the contributions of the Paul Cowleys, Kurt Bowmans and Jim Lipes of the world like to see someone lose out on a chance to make a bit of a name for themselves outside our geekish little circle? Of course not but looking at the business and the times within which we live I certainly understand the decision.

And I am not sure how clsoe you are on Tiger's "fee"... I would bet the vast majority of his take is "on the come" which says even more about the times.

[Randy Thompson]

Greg,
You make some good valid points and if the new development is stand alone, then the scenario it a little more logical. However, I feel you weigh a little too much on the sites weakness or short comings. More reason to have an experienced and proven team. The olympic site is weak but I have no doubt GH will turn it into a piece of art and a great golfing experience. I would want that first and farmost for my golf course and then I would look for an experienced professional marketing team to attract and secure my targeted market. Instead, they have choosen the marketing gimmick road and with a signature professional that has a damaged market perception, just look at some of the replies on here. I think a lot will boil down to how experienced and qualified the person team Tiger puts on site throughout the construction phase. I would hate to have all my money riding on team Tiger moving the needle without an exceptional final product that maximizies the properties potential.

[Jud_T]

Randy,

You certainly make a good point and I feel for Paul in this situation, particularly as they produced an excellent course on site, nevertheless a couple of points:

1.  DL III was never associated with the other course as far as I know.  Mickelson was being marketed as the guy to potential time-share clients.  If anyone should be pissed it's Phil's team.

2.  If Tiger's management team uses their heads for something other than hat racks they surely realize that they need to produce a great product and build his design brand on more than simply his name, as Jack did.  They also should know that if this ends up being the first course built under his name the scrutiny will be quite high so they better deliver the goods.

[Randy Thompson]

Jud,
As you can probably tell I am just a little-Anti Signature, I put Phil in the same boat as Tiger. It just drives up cost and less money could be spent with an experienced marketing team and potentially have the same results. Its a big risk from my point of view, a signature with so many perception problems at the moment and an unproven team. Do you think Tiger is hungry and really needs to create a sucessful design business. I think he wants to dabble and give it a shot but he is also accustomed to earning," easy money". To me, it is much easier wearing a shirt or a logo cap and earn ten million dollars. If he finds it is more trouble than it is worth, he will look for other adventures that produce more and require less.

[Greg Tallman]

Randy,

You certainly make a good point and I feel for Paul in this situation, particularly as they produced an excellent course on site, nevertheless a couple of points:

1.  DL III was never associated with the other course as far as I know.  Mickelson was being marketed as the guy to potential time-share clients.  If anyone should be pissed it's Phil's team.

2.  If Tiger's management team uses their heads for something other than hat racks they surely realize that they need to produce a great product and build his design brand on more than simply his name, as Jack did.  They also should know that if this ends up being the first course built under his name the scrutiny will be quite high so they better deliver the goods.

As previously noted this is NOT the course Mickelson was on baord to design. They still have plans for their "Shadow Creek" design in the back corner of the property. The course being fast tracked was only listed as "future development" on all previous plans and as things evolved with their timeshare success the resort within a resort concept was born (and financed). That said it is all but certain that Mickelson will not do the other private course either.

What would Bandon be if Kiser fell in love with Kidd and let him do what is now Pacific Dunes?

Should be interesting to watch as I am sure the purse strings are not as loose as Tiger and his team would like and thus they will have to do more with less... not that easy unless you are very talented. All in all for a development still trying to climb out from under a mountain of debt it makes sense. Agree that it sucks for paul and the product will likely be lesser for the decision but the bottom line healthier given the business model and clientele.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,
You make some good valid points and if the new development is stand alone, then the scenario it a little more logical. However, I feel you weigh a little too much on the sites weakness or short comings. More reason to have an experienced and proven team. The olympic site is weak but I have no doubt GH will turn it into a piece of art and a great golfing experience. I would want that first and farmost for my golf course and then I would look for an experienced professional marketing team to attract and secure my targeted market. Instead, they have choosen the marketing gimmick road and with a signature professional that has a damaged market perception, just look at some of the replies on here. I think a lot will boil down to how experienced and qualified the person team Tiger puts on site throughout the construction phase. I would hate to have all my money riding on team Tiger moving the needle without an exceptional final product that maximizies the properties potential.

Randy, Nobody moves the golf needle like Tiger Woods. Nobody. Getting his first course in the ground and open is a coup. Can we pick him apart as a person and "designer"? Of course, pretty low hanging fruit there but the timeshare crowd to whom they will be marketing will eat it up like a cheap taco from the vendor outside Cabo Wabo at 2:00am.


I would also highly doubt Tom, C&C or Hanse would have taken the gig. Why put such a reputation on the line when there is no chance to create something as good as the course already in the ground? Wonderful thing about being at the top of your profession... you get the pick of the litter and can turn down what many would kill to have.

Maybe a miracle will occur and Paul will be asked to be the on site guy for Tiger. Win, win, win.

[Randy Thompson]

What would Bandon be if Kiserīs second course he hired a new X Signature architect at X millions of dollars instead of hiring non signature architect with proven records that devote time on site instead of delegating to less experieinced personnel, as is the normal scenario with these signature designs??

[Jud_T]

OK I'm an idiot, but that's not news to anyone here.  If I had to guess, and that's all we can do in this instance, I'd guess that Tiger's competitiveness is such that he has ambitions of chasing Jack in the signature business as well as in Majors.  I agree with you in principal Randy but as Greg alluded to this is a pretty pricey high-end real estate property in a difficult time that will pull out all the stops to pay the piper.

[Randy Thompson]

Jud,
Your not an idiot, we are having a healthy discussion. I respect your opinion. So basically, Tiger competiveness nature and big Ego will be at the base of creating a successful design firm. Might work, who knows,,,we will just have to sit back and watch. One thing is clear, I have been out spoken over the years and I have been wrong more times than I have been right.

[Jud_T]

I meant in regards to my contention that Mickelson was designing the course, not your comments.

[Greg Tallman]

What would Bandon be if Kiserīs second course he hired a new X Signature architect at X millions of dollars instead of hiring non signature architect with proven records that devote time on site instead of delegating to less experieinced personnel, as is the normal scenario with these signature designs??

I was commenting on your assertion that staying with the proven entity was the best route.

[Randy Thompson]

I meant in regards to my contention that Mickelson was designing the course, not your comments.

Uff..now I feel like one too! The good thing is I doubt were alone, could be a good new topic, how many idiots are there on this site out of 1300 members!

[Ben Sims]

Randy,

I wouldn't say that Tiger's team is unproven.  Beau Welling (if indeed he is Tiger's lead man on this course) is far from that. 

[Greg Tallman]

Randy,

I wouldn't say that Tiger's team is unproven.  Beau Welling (if indeed he is Tiger's lead man on this course) is far from that. 

Ben, What are Beau's design credentials? It is my understanding he was more in the business side that the design side for Fazio.

[Jud_T]

Interesting website:

http://www.beauwellingdesign.com/

[Greg Tallman]

Interesting website:

http://www.beauwellingdesign.com/

Pretty interesting, well educated team.

[Jim Colton]

Update from Eamon Lynch:

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/tiger-woods-building-golf-course-cabo-san-lucas-mexico-diamante

Can we get Tiger a GCA log-in?

[Jud_T]

"I want to make it an enjoyable and memorable experience for all players, regardless of skill level," Woods wrote. "I've played in enough pro-ams to know that not every golfer is a scratch player. Creating wide landing areas and avoiding forced carries whenever possible allow all golfers, even beginners, to keep the ball in play and have more fun."

I can think of worse mantras for first time GCA's, and for some veteran ones for that matter...

[Stuart Goldstein]

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/tiger-woods-new-golf-course-cabo-san-lucas-mexico-routing#

Here is the routing.

[Jason Thurman]

Jud, I can't think of anything Tiger's ever said that makes me think he would be a poor course designer. Obviously that doesn't guarantee that he'll be good either, but there's no reason to think he'd be bad. I mean, The Old Course is his favorite track and The Open is his favorite tournament, which puts him relatively in alignment with about 60% of the architecture buffs on this forum according to a survey I made up for purposes of this post.

Then again, the philosophy you quoted him on is essentially the same philosophy Fuzzy Zoeller has claimed to follow, so there's that...

[Mark Saltzman]

It looks like Tiger likes the angle/distance trade-off. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Beau and their crew will do a good job. 
This has very little to do with the golf.

The site is constrained.
The holes are fine.
It won't be as good as Cowley's course.

[Josh Tarble]

the routing looks surprisingly good.  how that translates to the dirt will be the question.

[Stuart Goldstein]

Appears the first tee is part of the practice range.  Warm-up, walk over and off you go.  Or will that be a distraciton?

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