[JNC Lyon]

The timeline in George Bahto's "The Evangelist Of Golf" mentions NGLA's greens as being built a couple of years earlier than '09, and Emmet and Mac were associated by more than the Clark family.

"Shorts" would be much better if the lost elements on the greens were recaptured, but I don't think it strips the holes of their identity.

I think the lost green elements do strip them of their identity.  If the green contours are lost, all of the tradeoffs that make the "Short" so distinctive are lost.

[Rich Goodale]

John Low once wrote that "a short hole should not be long."

Low was being a wee bit facetious I'd guess. Even so, the point is hard to argue with.

Bob

Let's all be honest here.  Bob C nailed this a few days ago (see above).  Charlie Mac ran out of naming ideas after stealing "Redan" "Sahara" etc. and so he reverted to "Short" and "Long" without any idea as to what each meant, except for the bleeding obvious.  That being said, I do give him credit for restraint in that there was never a "Middle" hole in his repertoire.....

Rich

[Sean_A]

John Low once wrote that "a short hole should not be long."

Low was being a wee bit facetious I'd guess. Even so, the point is hard to argue with.

Bob

Let's all be honest here.  Bob C nailed this a few days ago (see above).  Charlie Mac ran out of naming ideas after stealing "Redan" "Sahara" etc. and so he reverted to "Short" and "Long" without any idea as to what each meant, except for the bleeding obvious.  That being said, I do give him credit for restraint in that there was never a "Middle" hole in his repertoire.....

Rich

Si

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
Cute, but he did create a particular framework for the hole after 'stealing' the name. 

JNC,
You're free to believe that, but if the Mona Lisa's face was smudged you'd still get the idea of what was there before the defacement.

 

[JNC Lyon]

Rich,
Cute, but he did create a particular framework for the hole after 'stealing' the name. 

JNC,
You're free to believe that, but if the Mona Lisa's face was smudged you'd still get the idea of what was there before the defacement.

 

You'd get the idea, but the essence of the original artwork would be lost, no?

[JNC Lyon]

John Low once wrote that "a short hole should not be long."

Low was being a wee bit facetious I'd guess. Even so, the point is hard to argue with.

Bob

Let's all be honest here.  Bob C nailed this a few days ago (see above).  Charlie Mac ran out of naming ideas after stealing "Redan" "Sahara" etc. and so he reverted to "Short" and "Long" without any idea as to what each meant, except for the bleeding obvious.  That being said, I do give him credit for restraint in that there was never a "Middle" hole in his repertoire.....

Rich

Isn't Long pretty clearly based on 14 at St. Andrews?  Again, "Short" is a very simple name, but the strategy is complex.  CBM didn't build a Postage Stamp par three, ever, and Raynor only built one or two.  The subdivided green (usually with the use of a horseshoe feature) appeared on nearly every iteration of the "Short."  So I find it difficult to argue that a "short" hole was simply a wedge par three.  I think the strategic complexity of MRB's other template holes demonstrate that those guys weren't that shallow.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for the elucidation, John.

I was unaware that CBM or anybody else ascribed anything else but length to their description of "Long" and "Short" holes.  Certainly, over here on the auld sod, Long and Short meant (and continues to mean) nothing more than "long" or "short."  My understanding is that CBM took the generic (lower case) description rather than the specfic (in the extreme ALL CAPS!!!!).  Did he (or anybody of his crew--Banks, Raynor, etc.) ever build a "long" hole even remotely resembling the 14th at St. Andrews?  Elysian Fields, Beardies, Hell, and a helluva green for starters, etc.?  I thought that his "Short" model was the 8th at St. Andrews--one of the poorest holes on that course, which has none of the characteristics which you describe in your article.  Finally, do you really believe that Donald Ross built templates based on CBM's cryptic writings, or even his work (e.g. NGLA)?

All that being said, the "Short" at NGLA is one of the great holes of golf, but sui generis rather than a "template" (before or after).  I think you (and many others) stretch to find similarity where there is only variety.  If so, why?

Cheers

Rich

[Forrest Richardson]

As John Low wrote:  "The short hole is not long."

What more do you need to know?

[JNC Lyon]

Rich,

C.B. MacDonald has been quoted as saying his model for the Short was the 5th (now 4th) at Brancaster).  I believe Jim Kennedy has the direct quote somewhere earlier in this thread.  While the 8th at the Old Course is named Short, it has nothing to do with the short hole template.

The Long hole is a tough one, and by all accounts it was usually MRB's weakest template hole.  In all fairness, though, the Long hole does have a lot more moving parts than, say, an Eden, or a Road.  Moreover, not every template hole was constructed on every MRB course.  How many Saharas are there other than NGLA?  Even so, my understanding is that the "Long" hole at the Lido was pretty solid, replete with a fearsome Hell bunker.  Of course, we'll never know for sure.  

Remember, too, that all templates don't have to be exactly the same.  It's likely true that most "Short" holes are not in the realm of 6 at NGLA (I can't register an opinion--I haven't seen NGLA).  However, most follow that same basic idea of a short par three to a large green that was subdivided by bold, often horseshoe-shaped, contours.  MacDonald and Raynor didn't build short par threes with small greens, whereas other Golden Age architects (Ross, Colt, Tillinghast) did.  If there wasn't a template for the "Short," wouldn't MacDonald and Raynor have built several short par threes with small greens in proportion with the length of the hole?  Clearly, somewhere along the line, someone in that group decided that a short par three with a large, subdivided green was the way to go.

As for Ross reading CBM's cryptic writings, I obviously have no idea.  But Ross's use of central horseshoe contours on a few his short par threes seems too good to be coincidental.  These contours have a similar appearance to those on the MRB Shorts, and they have the same strategic affect.  Folks always get deeply offended when I suggest that Ross borrowed ideas from his Golden Age cohorts, but the short par three with horseshoe contouring was definitely something that came before him  Moreover, those horseshoes don't just pop up out of nowhere in the middle of the landscape.  Yet just as Yeamans Hall's Short is different from the one at NGLA, so to are Ross's Short holes different from MRB's.  Oak Hill West's 4th is the most dramatic I've seen.  Even so, all of the holes I've listed follow the same basic template with variations on a theme.

[Sean_A]

JNC

What Old Mac nicked from Brancaster's 5th is the idea of a large green surrounded by trouble and to be approached with a short to mid-iron.  The horseshoe business is Old Mac's spin on the concept likely because he didn't think the original was quite challenging enough.   So, I am not sure we can really say that the important aspect of the Short concept is the green contour.  I think all the elements are important - especially to create havoc on a supposedly breather hole.

Ciao

[Patrice Boissonnas]

Very interesting debate.

Saint-Germain near Paris (Harry Colt) also has great short holes (7, 11 and 17) but they differ a lot from what you desribe with the 4th in Rochester West. In Saint-Germain, bunker placements always make you misjudge the distance and even with an 8 iron in hand you could perfectly miss the green or really be in the wrong part of it.
The 7th is really interesting : very small flat green (except for a steep frontgreen slope) sitting 6 to 7 feet above the surrounding area. The challenge here is really to land your ball on the green, it's a scary shot and if you succeed, you won't get much trouble with your putter. A few years ago, Saint-Germain created a new back tee extending the hole from roughly 150 yards to 180 yards. Of course this is not a problem for the big guys who can blast a 9 iron to 150 yards but for people like me (7 hcp), it turned my 8/7 iron to a 5 iron. Now it's a really really difficult shot and I think they went to far. This green was simply not designed for receiving long iron shots.
I love Saint-Germain, it's one of the best courses in France, they do a great job renovating and maintening it, but I think they got it wrong on this one.

This to say, I agree short holes have their own DNA and you simply can't lengthen them just like that. A short hole is a short hole.

[Mike Hendren]

Short at Forsgate from left of the green (Sorry about the Plainfield pics):



Bogey

[Anthony Gray]

  I do like the short hole to have the most interesting green. It just makes since. Several different hole location options make the short hole one of trhe most enjoyable holes on the course.

  Anthony

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for your reply, John

If you will refer to George Bahto's interview on this site you will see his opinion that the 8th at St. Andrews was indeed one of the generic templates that CB considered as a template for the "Short."  He chose 5 (4) Brancaster solely because it had more visibility than 8 OC.  As Sean rightly says above, all the frills and frippery (e.g. horseshoes/bowls) were added later by CB and Seth.  I must admit that I have never played Brancaster, but our Most Beloved Leader says that its "Short" is wide but shallow.  Surely CB couldn't have been thinking "wide and shallow" when he designed his short at NGLA (which I have played, and is probably at least 50 yards deep)?

In general, I think that the preponderance of the evidence is that in GCA "templates" are more reminders than recipes.  Even the most famous template of all, the Redan, was bastardised by CB at NGLA by introducing visibility off the tee.  The fact that CBM never created a great "long" hole jsut means that he has joined the crowd of most GCAs.  The number of really great long holes in the world can be counted on the less-than-ten fingers of the East Lothian caddies that spent their salad days working in the local coal mines.....

Slainte

Rich

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
I've never been to RWN either, but Google has, and they show a green that's almost a perfect circle with a diameter of 25 yards.



According to GeorgeB,  the most literal example of a "Long" was at Lido. The side-by-side drawings of the original and the Lido hole are seen  in "The Evangelist Of Golf", and they show CBM's adaptation of the original.

Looks like an interesting hole.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Jim.  Looks like a Short template to me--perfect 25' diamater surface with a rectangular bunker and slit trench in front?  Vis a vis Longs, I'll go and check out thta Lido hole you talk about next time I'm on LI.  Do you have Google coordinate for it?

Cheers

Rich

[Jim_Kennedy]

  

[Bruce Katona]

The idea of mixing up the distances on par 3's is paramount to a good customer experience.  IMHO, every course should have the following par 3 types (from the regular men's tee:

1- wedge/short iron - less then 135 yards
1- medium iron - 135- 165 yards
1 long iron/hybrid - 165-185 yards
1 which fits the routing best

A fantastic example of a short is #12 @ Somerset Hills - it is a wedge or short iron depending upon tee location.  The green is guarded by a pond left/short and a steep bank to the right.  Great fun to play.

PS: Every short should have an appropriate tee (60-75 yards) for the women to hit a wedge or short iron from.  They should have that kind of fun as well.

[Dan Smoot]

I am a little confusde here about a "Short" hole.  Is it green size, green contour, a horseshoe feature or just replicating a certain templates features?  Length must certainly be a criteria.  There are many holes that can be reached with a wedge to 9 iron but is that necessarily a "Short"?  I tried to gleen the definition out of all the comments but it seems a bit ambiguous.  

One of my favorite holes that seems to meet the description of the comments is Bandon Trails 5th.  This hole grows on me every time I have the opportunity to play it.  It certainly appears to be the correct length.  There is great green contour and of significant size to present numerous challenges and difficulties if the ball isn't placed in a proper location.  Please educate me.

[Bill Brightly]

I am a little confusde here about a "Short" hole.  Is it green size, green contour, a horseshoe feature or just replicating a certain templates features?  Length must certainly be a criteria.  There are many holes that can be reached with a wedge to 9 iron but is that necessarily a "Short"?  I tried to gleen the definition out of all the comments but it seems a bit ambiguous.  

One of my favorite holes that seems to meet the description of the comments is Bandon Trails 5th.  This hole grows on me every time I have the opportunity to play it.  It certainly appears to be the correct length.  There is great green contour and of significant size to present numerous challenges and difficulties if the ball isn't placed in a proper location.  Please educate me.

I think the article Jon posted had a very good description: a short hole completely surrounded by trouble with an oversized green with several distinct pinning areas.

"a “Short” hole is not just a flip wedge par three to a green surrounded by trouble. If that were the case, nearly every golf course in the world would have a “Short” hole. No, a Short hole is more sophisticated than that . It is indeed a short par three, but it plays to a green that is overly large for a par three of its length. The challenge rests on the design of the green, which is subdivided into several small sections. Each of these sections contains one or two hole locations with very little margin for error."

The other thing I have noticed is that Macdonald routed these holes in a very dramatic part of the property with a downhill great view behind the green: the Peconic Bay at NGLA, the Hudson River at Sleepy Holllow, etc. Banks did the same thing at Hackensack, with a nice view of the Oradell Resovoir in the distance (sadly long since obstructed by trees around the water.) However, this leads me to believe that "Short" holes were one of the first routed by Macdonald, Raynor and Banks on their sites.

[JNC Lyon]

Thanks, Jim.  Looks like a Short template to me--perfect 25' diamater surface with a rectangular bunker and slit trench in front?  Vis a vis Longs, I'll go and check out thta Lido hole you talk about next time I'm on LI.  Do you have Google coordinate for it?

Cheers

Rich

Rich,

Like you, I haven't played Brancaster, so I don't know how similar it is to the Short template I described.  Regardless, I merely cited it as an influence or origin, not necessarily as the template upon which all Short holes are based entirely.  My point is that a "Short" hole has several shared characteristics at most of Raynor's and Banks' courses (and a few of Ross's courses).  I haven't seen a ton of evidence from anyone to refute that point.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I was not confused until I started reading this and then saw rihc explanation was not accepted. Or as others said it is not too long. I always felt it was a hole that 95% of the time I could hit a 7 iron or less too.  I really tend to like those that are 8 or 9 iron or less like Mountain Lake 9. Of course NGLA has one of the best as well for those who like high profile courses.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The other thing I have noticed is that Macdonald routed these holes in a very dramatic part of the property with a downhill great view behind the green: the Peconic Bay at NGLA, the Hudson River at Sleepy Holllow, etc. Banks did the same thing at Hackensack, with a nice view of the Oradell Resovoir in the distance (sadly long since obstructed by trees around the water.) However, this leads me to believe that "Short" holes were one of the first routed by Macdonald, Raynor and Banks on their sites.

Bill,
Ours (Raynor) has the nice view.

From the tee:


Approaching from the left. Play comes in from the right directly over the bunker (thats my ball on, easily two clubs of wind that day    ):
This green filled the whole pad when it was built. Back then the other two balls would have been on the putting surface.


Looking back from the 6th fairway. The 'shoulder' at the right side of the photo is the 4th, created by George Bahto.

[Sean_A]

Brancaster's "Short" is short and when combined with the added breather space of the adjoining 14th green, the safe area is quite large.  Trouble is everywhere except long right, but the green is not a thing of beauty nor difficult to putt.  




Looking across #s 14 and 4.


Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,
Ours (Raynor) has the nice view.

From the tee:

[/quote]


Jim,

Thanks for posting! What course is that? Am I the only one who wonders what the hole would look like (and how it would play) if you removed all the trees behind the green?

Bill

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