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Melvyn Morrow

Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »
I attach him, that’s priceless, just look at the his opening lines 'It presents a nice contrast to the narrow-minded, stilted, parochial and regressive view of the game currently being promoted elsewhere on this website'.

Tiger, there is not much more to say, defend away


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2012, 04:22:18 PM »

Anyway, the last 25 years were the exception and not the norm for golf.  

Sorry to pick on you Big Guy but here goes....


The "Soul of the Game" are guys (and girls) who play golf, not the guys who run golf.

As a consumer of golf, it is the GREATEST time in golf:

* Many great courses are now accessible, Atlantic City is public,
* You can find places to play in 4 hours, it simply cost more money,
* Memberships are more diverse,
* There are walking oriented courses, there are riding oriented courses, there are caddy oriented courses.

The "Soul of the Game" golfer (me) has more choices than ever.


Mike Sweeney,
You know you can pick on me anytime you wish....ya'll been doing it since 1861.

Everything you state above is true and I agree with you.  But all of what you say is also created by excess product.  Some of that will go away because many of the "deals" you see today are guys just trying to hang in there but eventually some will cave.  A good owner once told me that you aren't making money in this game until you have guys complaining about having to wait .  Now that scenario might not be what we want but the excess and the little kinks are going to go away and the free enterprise system will prevail.  ( I learned that word "free enterprise" in one of those MBA books and thought I would impress you with it).  
And"hell no we ain't forgot" ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2012, 12:33:23 AM »
From John Paul's article:

"Two million U.S. jobs are now tied to golf, according to an industry lobbying consortium called We Are Golf, and those businesses are desperate to reverse their losses and expand."

Looking at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are about 140 million employed people in the U.S., meaning over 1 percent of people working in the country are directly or indirectly supporting the golf industry.  Does that sound reasonable to you?  Does a fully functional society devote 1 percent of its workers to the seventh or eighth most popular sport?


There's no way the game of golf will grow, at least economically, in the next twenty years.  No chance; forget it.  The luxurious golf life we have come to enjoy and expect will be scaled back.  Less money will be spent, and less people will be employed by golf.  Mike Sweeney is right - golf has never been better; and may never get more luxurious and varied than now.

Add golf to the list of nonessential industries that will wither as the world deals with overwhelming debt and dwindling natural resources. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2012, 07:32:03 AM »
As far as business (management companies) ruining the soul of golf, I don't think so overall.  The mom and pop model got taken over for good reason in corner stores, coffee shops, lumber yards, 5 and dimes, etc.  While free markets are brutal, making operations more efficient isn't killing golf.

Frankly, I wonder if global warmig (no more afternoon rounds) laziness, etc. aren't killing golf more.  The essense of golf still lies in the weather, nature, comraderie, etc. or at least as close an approximation of it as we can get.  Can't kill those things off via corporations running golf courses.

As to individual courses, I always thought that without a great site, and beautiful day, most courses wouldn't have soul if they hired Aretha Franklin to sing from hidden bushes behind the first tee.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2012, 08:54:34 AM »

As to individual courses, I always thought that without a great site, and beautiful day, most courses wouldn't have soul if they hired Aretha Franklin to sing from hidden bushes behind the first tee.

I'd have to disagree.

We've had some of the best sites in golf development history become available in the last 20 years, while the "soul of the game" has slipped considerably.

Some of the most "soulful" courses I've played have been on borderline sites that were populated by players who were full of soul and love for the game, and tack their way around the subtle, unkempt hazards they have available,..........as opposed to many who won't set foot on a property unless it's on some fancy Top 100 list with spectacular views,spend 25% of their budget on "bunker maintenance" ::) ::), has a caddie with a white suit, a great wine list, "anything you want off the menu" etc., many built on these wonderful sites that have been used recently.

As far as a beautiful day, the most soulful places in golf,( Ireland, and the UK) have some of the most "not beautiful" days one can imagine.

So if the majority feels a great site and a beautiful day is needed beautiful day for a golf course to have soul, let's just say I respectfully disagree......
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 09:07:01 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2012, 09:03:32 AM »
Jeff,

actually, had a thought to type about steel blue skies, (ie. threatening, ominus, cold) which have made for some of my best days of golf, too.  So, I agree. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2012, 09:24:24 AM »
Jeff,

actually, had a thought to type about steel blue skies, (ie. threatening, ominus, cold) which have made for some of my best days of golf, too.  So, I agree. 

Where's the fun in that? ;D

I just think that we can't "grow the game" faster than we educate the players.
More golfers and players isn't always a good thing.
Golf's not for everyone, but should be AVAILABLE to everyone, albeit with some effort.
The most passionate golfers are usually/often the ones to whom golf was made the least available, and who had to sacrifice greatly to have access to the game.
The least passionate are often the ones with the most entitled access.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2012, 09:44:19 AM »
When folks speak of golf currently enjoying its best times ever, they are clearly talking about what they can get FROM the game as it struggles to shed the greed and excess created by those determined to "Grow the Game" on a foundation with lots of quicksand under it.

How healthy is golf? Not good at all would be my take. Sure, we can enjoy great golf, at cheap prices, on those properties that are shortly heading for the auction block. Few would argue that golf needs to contract, there are simply not enough golfers to support the wild overbuilding and industry-wide bloating of the past 15 years.

Many of the observations posted on this thread are dead on...self-preservation, particularly at the top, is the order of the day. When simple common sense, such as "get on the right damn tee," is packaged and glorified as some marvelous initiative, what more needs to be recognized to know the ship is adrift.

It's a tough game, that takes time to learn, and even at "affordable" levels, isn't cheap. Attach those realities to ANY other endeavor on the planet..and the word "niche" is sure to enter the conversation. Striving for quality presentation, at all levels, and at all GCA pricepoints, should be the goal. Take care of the game, SHARE the game...and the game will gradually transition to a healthier state.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 09:47:01 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2012, 12:06:42 PM »
Tommy probably has a much better understanding of the reformation than I do. But, my basic understanding was that the church had become corrupt and deviated from its roots, and therefore needed to be brought back to its roots. Therefore, I think the reformation is a perfect analogy to the golf situation. I think Susie Meyers has hit the nail on the head pretty well.

"When I was learning to love this game, it was never seen as too hard, or too time-consuming to play, or too expensive, or too frustrating," said Susie Meyers, 51, who later played on the LPGA Tour and now teaches golf in Arizona. The course she played on with her family and friends was short and simple, but in her memories it was heaven.

In the intervening years, the character and challenges of the game changed, Meyers said. "Whose idea was it to make courses so difficult it takes 5½ hours to play?" she asks. "Whose idea was it to say there's a perfect swing and if you come to me I'll show you what's wrong with it and fix it? Whose idea was it that you have to find the perfect club and the perfect ball and play on perfect grass?"

So it seems Ms. Meyers wants to start the golf reformation, and get away from its excessive, corrupt, deviation from the game, and back to its roots.

It would seem that a huge portion of the members of this website agree with her on the rejection of the penal/heroic style of golf course.
Another huge portion of the members would agree with her on the rejection of perfect conditoning.

She really hits home with me on golf being too expensive and the need for the perfect club, and ball. When I joined this website, I was ridiculed for making statements about golf being too expensive. But, then every once in a while there would be a question about how much you would pay to play, and a significant number of the posters would come out of the woodwork and say they limited their games to under $50, and I knew I wasn't alone. The clubs are needlessly expensive. When my son expressed the desire to play more golf, my wife went to Target and came home with 12 clubs for $100. You can hardly buy a single club for that price in some "golf" shops. After a couple of years, I doubled the value of his set by going out and buying him a Ping putter for $100. In my opinion the advancement in club design is of no value. To demonstrate that, last year I replaced my cavity back irons with blades, and my handicap didn't change one iota. As a matter of fact, as the year wore on I believe the blades helped me discover why I shot worse scores at the end of the golf season than at the beginning every year, and for the first time in several years my handicap began to edge down at the end of the year.

I find it interesting that coffee has been bandied about on this thread as an example of MBA's gone to excess. You've got the right product, but it seems to me you totally misunderstand the whole situation. In the middle of the 20th century, coffee became heavily promoted, and the MBA's at the coffee companies began to try to grow sales and began to compete on price until it became absolute swill by the time I reached coffee drinking age. Upon completion of college, I went into the Peace Corps in Ethiopia. Ethiopia begin in close proximity to Arabia has always had arabica coffee trees growing wild in their forests. It is a tree that grows in the shaded understory of the forest. In some parts of Ethiopia at the time "coffee plantations" were harvested by simply going out into the wild forests and picking the wild crop. Perhaps needless to say, Ethiopia has a long historic coffee culture. To come there from the souless wasteland of American coffee was a true awakening. On returning to the U.S. I spent a significant amount of time in Europe drinking the same high quality coffee. So you see, Starbucks had brought the true reformation to coffee in the U.S., a return to its roots, and an overthrow of its godless MBA roots.

I find it pretty disturbing that the PGA of America is trying further to take golf away from its roots with the tee it forward program so people can make birdies and pars. That is not golf! The PGA of America needs to emphasize bringing players together to play enjoyable matches. And, I am not talking medal play here. Old Tom Morris did not create a handicap system so that people could play 18 holes, tally up their scores, deduct their handicap, and decide who won. Old Tom Morris created a handicap system so that it could be determined equitably who won or lost each hole in succession.

Guess I best push the post button so I don't muck it up and lose what may be my longest essay ever.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2012, 01:34:59 PM »
BTW David, is mine a "narrow-minded, stilted, parochial and regressive view of the game currently being promoted elsewhere on this website."?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2012, 10:52:28 AM »
by the way, freshly minted MBA's are avoiding Wall Street like the plague these days, so by logical extension they're no longer scumbags.  ::)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 08:46:29 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2012, 08:33:34 AM »
Frankly, I wonder if global warmig (no more afternoon rounds) laziness, etc. aren't killing golf more.  The essense of golf still lies in the weather, nature, comraderie, etc. or at least as close an approximation of it as we can get.  Can't kill those things off via corporations running golf courses.

To be a pedant corporations running golf courses could contribute to killing the weather by using hundreds of golf carts, which use more energy which has been produced by burning fossil fuels etc etc .....you get what I mean but more importantly both in my opinion and experience they can definitely kill the soul of a course/club and therefore part of the game.

At least in the UK (my experience of the US is limited) you can tell a corporate run course as soon as you step foot on the property, everything about them feels clinical and everything seems to revolve around trying to sell you something for adverts around the place for green fee deals to the over price coffee/pint after the round. Even as a member they control how you experience the place from the moment you have to book in to play a round to swiping your bar card to pay for the over price coffee. You just don't seem to get the freedom a 'real' members run club or lots of privately owned clubs offer. The larger corporations also manage to make all of their clubs and courses feel the same, making you feel anything but special when you get the chance to play one.

The soul of golf to me is the variety and individuality about every part of the experience of playing the game, from differing types of shots, lies, courses and conditions to the clubhouses and your playing partners. That variation is what brings me back week after week. In my opinion corporations running courses take most of this variation away, making you experiences outside of actually hitting the ball repetitive and boring. Yes the hitting the ball is the important part but it is the small details which contribute massively to the overall experience which really make the game and pretty much anything in day to day life more enjoyable.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Battle for the Soul of the Game"
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2012, 11:49:10 PM »
Poor, poor Mr. Spode,

I am not rubbishing "Scottish Golf." I have been fortunate enough to play 40-50 rounds of golf a year in Scotland for many years now, which I enjoy very much. If I am rubbishing anything, it is your narrow-minded view of how golf can be played (and even enjoyed!) in modern times. I trust that even you recognize that you and "Scottish Golf" are not one and the same. ;)

Fortunately, most golfers I have met in Scotland have a much more inclusive view of golf than the ones you express. They are happy to be living in the 21st century and have little or no interest in returning to the primitive and rudimentary state of golf in the 19th century. They realize that the world of golf is very large and that, just because golf has a certain heritage in Scotland, it does not mean that other countries, with different climates, geographies, social customs, etc. cannot develop a legitimate golf culture of their own.

For example, in Japan it is customary for golfers to take a break after 9 holes to enjoy a meal before playing the back 9. Does this custom mean that golf in Japan is not "real" golf by your standards?

I have even met a number of Scots who travel to the U.S. regularly. They go because they enjoy their golf there. They go because the dynamics of the game are somewhat different from the game they play in Scotland. They embrace and appreciate the differences.     

Your ignorance of this is woeful. Regrettably, in your case it appears to be willful as well.

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