[Roger Wolfe]

Roger,

    Observations aren't emotion. ''Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles ''.  Your statement is so off the mark.  Do you not value your walkers monthly dues?  Is it not enough that you have to think of them as free loaders off people who ride carts?  I don't want to speak for Sean but he seems to echo my thoughts as we don't want to hear walkers are cheap and taking advantage of their club. 

Where do you imply I said the walkers are cheap freeloaders... SUBJECTIVE.
Riders subsidize walkers... OBJECTIVE.

You statement is so off the mark... SUBJECTIVE.
Walkers do not repair divots... OBJECTIVE.

Again... impossible to have a rationale argument.

PS... My wife is a superintendent so please do not wave your "superintendent friend" flag.  Walkers do not fix divots... riders cause more wear and tear on the rough and fairways.

Give it up.

[Carl Johnson]

O.K., the title of this thread is "Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club," but it has evolved into something a little different.  The whole walkers vs. riders thing, and who is subsidizing whom, is, as the youngsters might say, bogus.  At my club, at the micro level, there are plenty of walkers (with push/pull carts or power trolleys) who fix more fairway divots than some riders (or any rider), and vice versa.  How about ball marks on the greens?  Recently I've been appalled by the unrepaired or very poorly repaired ball marks on our greens.  Are those the ball marks of walkers or riders?  This maintenance issue has nothing to do with walking vs. riding. And what's the relative contribution each make to the bottom line vis a vis the damage they do to the course? At the micro level it's not walkers vs. riders, it's members who care vs. members who don't (private club here).  At the marco level, it's simply business.  How does a club mazimize enjoyment and minimize cost the in order to remain healthy?  Not an easy question to answer, by a long shot.

[Lou_Duran]

http://www.golfdigeststix.com/golfdigeststix/20140604?pg=15#article_id=451407

Also in Golf Digest, 8/2014, from David Fay:

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2014-08/david-fay-opinion-pushcarts

"Only in America is there a stigma against pushcarts (trolleys).  Some sniff that pushcarts look "muny." Here's a small sampling of U.S. golf clubs that embrace that look, some or all of the time: The Country Club and Kittansett (Massachusetts); Atlanta Athletic Club; Newport (Rhode Island); Fishers Island, Maidstone and Shinnecock Hills (New York); Somerset Hills (New Jersey); Ballyneal and Denver Country Club (Colorado); The Valley Club of Montecito (California); Yeamans Hall (South Carolina); Riomar (Florida) and many of the fine private clubs in the Pacific Northwest and Upper Midwest."

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Apparently David Fay has not played Merion's West course. 

The objection at my former club, founded in 1990 in the Philly 'burbs,  was the "muny look." They did have a "walk&carry" policy after 2pm weekdays and on weekends if no caddy was available. I do not know their current policy.

[Roger Wolfe]

O.K., the title of this thread is "Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club," but it has evolved into something a little different.  The whole walkers vs. riders thing, and who is subsidizing whom, is, as the youngsters might say, bogus.  At my club, at the micro level, there are plenty of walkers (with push/pull carts or power trolleys) who fix more fairway divots than some riders (or any rider), and vice versa.  How about ball marks on the greens?  Recently I've been appalled by the unrepaired or very poorly repaired ball marks on our greens.  Are those the ball marks of walkers or riders?  This maintenance issue has nothing to do with walking vs. riding. And what's the relative contribution each make to the bottom line vis a vis the damage they do to the course? At the micro level it's not walkers vs. riders, it's members who care vs. members who don't (private club here).  At the marco level, it's simply business.  How does a club mazimize enjoyment and minimize cost the in order to remain healthy?  Not an easy question to answer, by a long shot.

Sorry Carl... riders fix more divots... its a fact.  BUT... the rest of your post is spot on!

[mike_beene]

We have divot sand on the push carts and you better believe we fix our divots.

[Dan Herrmann]

The objection at my former club, founded in 1990 in the Philly 'burbs,  was the "muny look."

This is so sad on so many counts.   I'm betting that a big percentage of members grew up playing municipal or public courses.  I know I did, and I'm proud of it.

The only downside of a push cart is if it falls in the middle of the night from the hanger in the garage and puts a big dent in your car's passenger-side door (which happened to me last month

[Chris Kurzner]

We have divot sand on the push carts and you better believe we fix our divots.

I can most certainly confirm this, though no one has been fixing any divots at our course since January 1 (Coore/Crenshaw renovation work ALMOST DONE!!!).

Those of us who prefer to carry fix divots as well.  While we don't typically lug a jug of sand, there are ways to repair Bermuda divots without tracking down a beaver pelt or filling with sand.  A couple of well placed jabs with an iron (think like you're repairing a ball mark on the green) and you can draw the grass back together to make a playable lie and encourage the growth over the former divot.

[John Kavanaugh]

Not tracking down a beaver pelt is a dick move.

[Carl Johnson]

Not tracking down a beaver pelt is a dick move.

Very clever!  But, seriously, replacing a divot on Bermuda is counter-productive - worse than doing nothing.  It happens.  You've got to know the "turf."

[John Burnes]

Lou-

After 2, add the cricket club to the list.  Not sure the evolution of it, but we allow it.  They do just about everything right here.  Just awesome.

[Mike Sweeney]

Lou-

After 2, add the cricket club to the list.  Not sure the evolution of it, but we allow it.  They do just about everything right here.  Just awesome.

Not sure my wife Connecticut born wife would move with me back to Philly for push carts, but that is nice to hear. Love it! 

[Wayne_Kozun]

It is interesting to note that here in Canada things are quite different, despite the fact that generally private golf clubs work the same as in the US.

Toronto Golf Club and Rosedale Golf Club are probably the most exclusive old-style private golf clubs in the country.  They are each over 120 years old.  The default for both of these courses when you are a guest is to put your bag on a push cart.  Caddies are very rare at these clubs and any place in Canada, except for Hamilton.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

O.K., the title of this thread is "Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club," but it has evolved into something a little different.  The whole walkers vs. riders thing, and who is subsidizing whom, is, as the youngsters might say, bogus.  At my club, at the micro level, there are plenty of walkers (with push/pull carts or power trolleys) who fix more fairway divots than some riders (or any rider), and vice versa.  How about ball marks on the greens?  Recently I've been appalled by the unrepaired or very poorly repaired ball marks on our greens.  Are those the ball marks of walkers or riders?  This maintenance issue has nothing to do with walking vs. riding. And what's the relative contribution each make to the bottom line vis a vis the damage they do to the course? At the micro level it's not walkers vs. riders, it's members who care vs. members who don't (private club here).  At the marco level, it's simply business.  How does a club mazimize enjoyment and minimize cost the in order to remain healthy?  Not an easy question to answer, by a long shot.

Sorry Carl... riders fix more divots... its a fact.  BUT... the rest of your post is spot on!

So with youR logic and "fact" people in the UK ....generally walkers...fix less divots than their American cart riding counterparts, I beg to differ

[Brent Hutto]

MWP,

Don't try to turn what Roger said into yet another USA-UK strawman non-sequitur.

At Roger's southeastern USA golf courses he observes that carts riders fix more divots than walkers. I have observed the same thing at other southeastern USA golf courses. When "fixing divots" entails carrying an eight-pound bottle of sand/seed mix, it is not in the least surprising that the guy with his bag on his shoulder tends NOT to do it while the guy riding in a power carts DOES tend to do it.

At my own club in particular where push carts (trolleys) are very popular, a great many push-cart walkers do carry sand/seed bottles attached to their push cart. As I do, myself. Those people do tend to fix divots. On the occasions when I carry my bag on my shoulder (as I would do at any club which disallowed push carts for whatever inane reason) I do not carry sand/seed mix.

[Roger Wolfe]

MWP,

Don't try to turn what Roger said into yet another USA-UK strawman non-sequitur.

At Roger's southeastern USA golf courses he observes that carts riders fix more divots than walkers. I have observed the same thing at other southeastern USA golf courses. When "fixing divots" entails carrying an eight-pound bottle of sand/seed mix, it is not in the least surprising that the guy with his bag on his shoulder tends NOT to do it while the guy riding in a power carts DOES tend to do it.

At my own club in particular where push carts (trolleys) are very popular, a great many push-cart walkers do carry sand/seed bottles attached to their push cart. As I do, myself. Those people do tend to fix divots. On the occasions when I carry my bag on my shoulder (as I would do at any club which disallowed push carts for whatever inane reason) I do not carry sand/seed mix.

Thanks Brent.  Geez these guys are sensitive.  Carts have two giant sand bottles.  100% of the guys carrying their bag do not have sand bottles.  75% of the guys with push carts do not have sand bottles.  50% of the guys with motorized push carts do not have sand bottles.  We do not replace divots on bermudagrass... we sand them.  ITS JUST MATH!

[Bob_Huntley]

Lou,

MPCC has them for no charge. They are equipped to carry seed.

Bob

[Carl Johnson]

MWP,

Don't try to turn what Roger said into yet another USA-UK strawman non-sequitur.

At Roger's southeastern USA golf courses he observes that carts riders fix more divots than walkers. I have observed the same thing at other southeastern USA golf courses. When "fixing divots" entails carrying an eight-pound bottle of sand/seed mix, it is not in the least surprising that the guy with his bag on his shoulder tends NOT to do it while the guy riding in a power carts DOES tend to do it.

At my own club in particular where push carts (trolleys) are very popular, a great many push-cart walkers do carry sand/seed bottles attached to their push cart. As I do, myself. Those people do tend to fix divots. On the occasions when I carry my bag on my shoulder (as I would do at any club which disallowed push carts for whatever inane reason) I do not carry sand/seed mix.

Thanks Brent.  Geez these guys are sensitive.  Carts have two giant sand bottles.  100% of the guys carrying their bag do not have sand bottles.  75% of the guys with push carts do not have sand bottles.  50% of the guys with motorized push carts do not have sand bottles.  We do not replace divots on bermudagrass... we sand them.  ITS JUST MATH!

Roger, my original point was not that players walking fix more divots than players riding. Of course, the accessibility of "sand" to the riders gives then the advantage here.  Certainly, per round, the average rider will fix more diviots than the average walker at our course.  What I said was that plenty of walkers fix more divots than some riders.  (As you know, most of the time I walk with a Kangaroo power caddy, and carry two sand bottles.  Tuesday I emptied four during my round - fixing not just my diviots, but neighborhood divots and random diviots while I waiting to take the next shot, with nothing else to do.  On the other hand, I've played with others using riding carts who don't fix some or any of their diviots.)  My larger point was that some golfers ride, some walk, some fix fairway divots, some don't, some fix ball marks on greens, some don't, some play slow, some play fast, etc.  Therefore, I think it's unreasonable to say walkers should pay more because they don't fix divots, or that riders should pay more because the do more course damage (apparently at some courses, though not ours).  Rather than pick at little things that vary from player to player, regardless of category,  I think you've got to take a broad view of how dues and separate fees affect your ability to attract and keep members.  For instance, adding $25/mo. to dues and dropping cart fees (and building it into the green fee for visitors) -- also including cart storage in the dues package -- isn't going to affect me one way or another -- but how would that be taken by the membership as a whole and what effect would it have on attracting and retaining members?  It might help.  It might hurt.  It might be neutral.  I don't think it's a clear call.  That's why you and the Board have a crystal ball!

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,

MPCC has them for no charge. They are equipped to carry seed.

Bob

Bob,

I remember playing the Dunes course with you 10 years ago and you walked all 18 with your battery-powered cart.  As I recall, the club stored and maintained it for you.  We also played the "old" Shore course that afternoon, though I think we rode (really liked the old greens).  MPCC has to be one of the world's premier clubs.

I am happy to report that my home club has a nice fleet of ClicGears, though carrying is a bit easier (carried 9 for the first time yesterday since neck surgery couple years ago).  Some of Dallas' best private clubs- Northwood, Lakewood, Honors- now allow push carts.  I even saw some young kids today in near 100° heat carrying and pushing carts.  Heart-warming.  

[mike_beene]

Lou, add Dallas Athletic Club and Dallas Country Club as well.

[Joe Sponcia]

Roger,

I like your idea of dividing by 500.  I also understand Bens taxation stance but if carts were "only" $30-40 more per month, I would think clubs could draw more members as many consider carts a death blow to joining when factoring in another $200 per month In addition to dues. 

What if carts were $5 instead (the math might equal your divide by 500 plan)?  I wonder how many walkers would pass up dirt cheap rides?  It would make me think...considering I walk about 75% of the time.

[BCowan]

Wilshire CC- fleet of 18 and ordering more!

[Philip Hensley]

I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness.  It's really a team effort.

How ridiculous is it to see cartballers (buggyballers?) hacking up the fairways and not even reach for a sand bottle when they rented a 500+ pound buggy to carry the sand bottle around? It doesn't matter if the buggyballers have the sand with them if they aren't going to use it.

I'm starting to see more and more proper golfers not only putting the sand bottles in their trolleys, but actually using them.

[BCowan]

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/2015-pga-show-push-carts-follow-you/

Good to see the trolley got some airtime on Morning Drive yesterday! 

[BHoover]

I would LOVE to have one of these roving carts follow me around. Better than carrying and better than taking a caddie! This is going on my Xmas wish list!

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