[Brent Hutto]

11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?

Paul,

Obviously it is a possible to have a viable golf club in UK that isn't built around ubiquitous riding carts. I've seen it myself, obviously that "model" works.

If you had spent even as much time in USA as the few weeks I've spent in UK you'd know that most places the same "model" is a total non-starter.

So first, you have to account for riding carts as the dominant "model". Then you have to fit in the push cart thing somewhere between the riding carts, the no-push-cart walkers and (at a very few clubs) the caddie thing.

[Jason Thurman]

How did clubs survive prior to carts???  

Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.

Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.

As a senior member myself, I object to your characterization!  

Bill, I’m sure you smell fine and your war stories are always a joy to hear. It’s just a numbers thing. Too many senior members leads to certain issues, just as too many members my age leads to a locker room full of manscaping products, a bar stocked with 500 different shitty microbrewed IPAs, and clamoring for each cart to have its own wi-fi hotspot.

Ben, if you're genuinely offering to write a 3 page short story, I would love to read it.

[Dan Kelly]

11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?

Go ahead. Teach US! (Why do I sense that your comment has little to do with golf?)

Oh, and as for whether no club with tee times is worth joining: Sacre bleu! Zut alors! Balderdash and humbug! (I'm pretty sure I learned all of those expressions from the rest of the planet.)

Dan

[John Kavanaugh]

11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?

Go ahead. Teach US! (Why do I sense that your comment has little to do with golf?)

Oh, and as for whether no club with tee times is worth joining: Sacre bleu! Zut alors! Balderdash and humbug! (I'm pretty sure I learned all of those expressions from the rest of the planet.)

Dan

I like tee times in a text message world.  Pick a time, reserve it, text it, play it.

[Mark Pritchett]

     Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years.  That argument is null and void now. 

Thanks, I did not realize 1965 was the Golden Age of Golf Courses. 

[BCowan]

     Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years.  That argument is null and void now. 

Thanks, I did not realize 1965 was the Golden Age of Golf Courses. 

 Wow, let me help you out.  The land was donated in around 1965, most Golden Age courses were paid off by 1965, hence a level playing field.  Do I need to tell you when the Golden Age was? 

[BCowan]

How did clubs survive prior to carts???  

Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.

Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.

As a senior member myself, I object to your characterization!  

Bill, I’m sure you smell fine and your war stories are always a joy to hear. It’s just a numbers thing. Too many senior members leads to certain issues, just as too many members my age leads to a locker room full of manscaping products, a bar stocked with 500 different shitty microbrewed IPAs, and clamoring for each cart to have its own wi-fi hotspot.

Ben, if you're genuinely offering to write a 3 page short story, I would love to read it.

That was sarcasm Jason.  Spontaneous order works just fine.  I'm sure you would rather have assessments and or dues raised to meet your quotas.  The beautiful thing about my club is there are ford rangers parked next to Tesla's!  Our in-exlusiveness keeps the wannabes out!  500 IPA's that is tragic.  

Back to original topic
Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?

I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.  

[Mark Pritchett]

     Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years.  That argument is null and void now. 

Thanks, I did not realize 1965 was the Golden Age of Golf Courses. 

 Wow, let me help you out.  The land was donated in around 1965, most Golden Age courses were paid off by 1965, hence a level playing field.  Do I need to tell you when the Golden Age was? 

Let me help you out with this old saying from LBJ:

"You ain't learning nothing when you're talking."

[Sean_A]

Jason

I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out    Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head. 

Sean, they generate a profit at my club, and I think buried somewhere back on page 2 or 3 of this thread was some data that showed they almost always generate a profit for a club that has them. In the absence of any real data to support the contention, I’m considering the notion that carts cost more in expenses than they recoup through revenue to be...

Perhaps its your wording.  Profit is incorrect.  The club has a choice of

1. Offering the SERVICE of carts

2. if the members want the SERVICE, what will the SERVICE cost and how will the members pay for the SERVICE?

The club doesn't net a profit from anything unless its a business doing well.  My argument has always been about private members' clubs.  It would be especially difficult to determine the so called profit if the books aren't organized in a manner to determine the true cost of carts.  There may be some clubs which itemize the cart barn, insurance, cart staff salary/benefits/pensions contributions, cart path build and maintenance, damage to the course, cart hire and maintenance etc. Until someone can show me how all the numbers work, I don't think it is unreasonable to doubt that carts are a so called profit centre at private clubs.  But then, it doesn't really matter if the members want the service.  All you are quibling about is how to pay for the service.  There are loads of ways to go about doing this and no matter the model, someone gets screwed.  Despite your mythical myth busting which magically did away with the issue producing any numbers - I bet it is far more likely to be the walking golfer who gets screwed.  Thats fine too if he is willing to subsidize riders.  Its quite clear that many clubs would struggle to survive without offering carts as a service so thats the life of many US walkers who want to go private.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

In my part of the world, Sean, a walking golfer doesn't have the luxury of worrying about whether the fees charged for carts exceed the cost of the carts. We have to settle for finding a club which actually allows us to walk at all. Most courses (both private and public) require the use of carts. Either always or at weekends.

Perhaps that why I've lost interest over the years in the question of "profit" related to carts. When one has to beg to be allowed at the table at all, one tends not to complain about the seating arrangement or how the bill is split.

[Sean_A]

In my part of the world, Sean, a walking golfer doesn't have the luxury of worrying about whether the fees charged for carts exceed the cost of the carts. We have to settle for finding a club which actually allows us to walk at all. Most courses (both private and public) require the use of carts. Either always or at weekends.

Perhaps that why I've lost interest over the years in the question of "profit" related to carts. When one has to beg to be allowed at the table at all, one tends not to complain about the seating arrangement or how the bill is split.

Hence my comment Its quite clear that many clubs would struggle to survive without offering carts as a service so thats the life of many US walkers who want to go private.

Still, I would like to see the real and true numbers on so called cart profit for private clubs.  I am not saying there isn't a revenue stream to be made, but I if I had to bet on I would put my fiver on carts not being a positive revenue stream.  But that shouldn't be surprising if one looks at carts as a service, just like all the other crap at clubs. 

Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

In my part of the world, Sean, a walking golfer doesn't have the luxury of worrying about whether the fees charged for carts exceed the cost of the carts. We have to settle for finding a club which actually allows us to walk at all. Most courses (both private and public) require the use of carts. Either always or at weekends.

Perhaps that why I've lost interest over the years in the question of "profit" related to carts. When one has to beg to be allowed at the table at all, one tends not to complain about the seating arrangement or how the bill is split.

Hence my comment Its quite clear that many clubs would struggle to survive without offering carts as a service so thats the life of many US walkers who want to go private.

Still, I would like to see the real and true numbers on so called cart profit for private clubs.  I am not saying there isn't a revenue stream to be made, but I if I had to bet on I would put my fiver on carts not being a positive revenue stream.  But that shouldn't be surprising if one looks at carts as a service, just like all the other crap at clubs. 

Ciao

Sean:
Have you read Roger Wolfe's earlier posts in this thread, including ##'s 73, 48, 76?   He has a lot of hard numbers in those posts -- and is only charging $14 for a cart.   

[Paul Gray]

Brent (Since Brent was the only one to respond in a sensible manner),

My limited (very limited) knowledge of US golf tells me that the UK model would cause all sorts of complaints. Really, that's the gist of my point. Unless the attitude of the average American golfer can be tweaked, seemingly you're stuck with an unsustainable model which is fine in boom times and a recipe for rust in the bad times.

Now, genuinely, I'd be interested to learn why you simply can't have carts, hired trolleys, golfer's own trolleys and walkers all coexisting happily. You pay an annual membership fee and thereafter, should you wish to hire something on the day, you do so. Rounds take much the same amount of time regardless of mode of transport and quicker players are called through by slower players anyway. It ain't rocket science.   

[Brent Hutto]

At my private (member owned) club there are riding carts, walk-and-carry golfers and walk-and-pushcart golfers quite happily coexisting. In fact, that is a very common arrangement indeed. Push carts for hire are a slightly less common variation but not at all uncommon.

The original poster is asking about how to create acceptance of this very common arrangement by clubs which consider push carts totally off limits for whatever reason. I personally have no idea how a member of such a club would go about convincing his fellow members to accept push carts. To me, their presence so commonplace it makes me unable to conceive of why they would be considered unacceptable in the first place.

I know country club members are stereotypically reactionary and prone to silly rules. But that's just a stereotype and IMO can't really explain why something as simple as a trolley to carry ones golf bag would be disallowed completely. I have to figure such rules of protecting  "turf" of some form or another. Maybe caddies. Maybe riding cart fees. Maybe something else I just can't fathom.

[Dan Herrmann]

(I'm being facetious here)
I was playing on Sunday morning behind a foursome.  Two were carrying, and two were using push carts.

I was so deeply offended that the "look" of the push carts that I decided to complain to management.
-------------------------------------
To people who think push carts are a social offense - read above and see just how stupid that opinion is.

[Paul Gray]

Thank you Brent for your intelligent and informative response.

So, as I understand it, the problem is an age old one of some people having more money than class. They may not be allowed to dictate buggy policies over here but we certainly have more than our fair share of them and, as seemingly may to be the case in America, they tend to be drawn to those clubs with a more gauche persona.

I guess the only way to go is to tap away at that perception. You're clearly going to continue to have people wanting to do what they perceive to be 'the thing to do' so you have to get them to believe that buggies are laughable, at least for the able bodied. Easier said than done, I know.

[Aaron McMaster]

Thank you Brent for your intelligent and informative response.

So, as I understand it, the problem is an age old one of some people having more money than class. They may not be allowed to dictate buggy policies over here but we certainly have more than our fair share of them and, as seemingly may to be the case in America, they tend to be drawn to those clubs with a more gauche persona.

I guess the only way to go is to tap away at that perception. You're clearly going to continue to have people wanting to do what they perceive to be 'the thing to do' so you have to get them to believe that buggies are laughable, at least for the able bodied. Easier said than done, I know.

Wow it only took 12 pages to get back to the original post on the stigma of trollys/pull carts and how to remove it.  No real answers though.

[John Kavanaugh]

My club, Victoria National, accepted trolleys as another form of play last year. I explained exactly how earlier in the thread. It is the militant walkers who continue the argument.

[Jud_T]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

[Brian Finn]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

My club is one. Brookside G&CC in Columbus, OH.  Of course, we have tee times also, so perhaps that makes us unworthy of consideration in your eyes.  We have caddies available, but they are not mandatory.  The club owns push carts, but they are available only when riding carts are not permitted (due to weather).  I don't like this policy, but it is a very small complaint (for me) at an otherwise terrific club.

[Jud_T]

Not trying to knock clubs with tee times, it just isn't a positive to my personal utility function.  The ability to play at a moment's notice subject to schedules and/or weather is a big plus in my mind.  It also implies a certain lack of crowding on the course.  This might be another difference between golf clubs and country clubs.

[BCowan]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

   This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying.  many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available.  All of those are non trolleys.  

    Brandywine in Toledo has no caddie program, allows carrying and no trolleys.  

The best club's model would be Barton Hills, they have a caddie program and people can carry and or use a trolley whenever they want.  

[Jud_T]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

   This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying.  many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available.  All of those are non trolleys.  

Then why is the question only in relation to push carts?  Why not ask why carrying and/or push carts are not allowed at all times?

[John Kavanaugh]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

The best club's model would be Barton Hills, they have a caddie program and people can carry and or use a trolley whenever they want.  

That is exactly what Victoria National has going on.

[BCowan]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

   This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying.  many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available.  All of those are non trolleys.  

Then why is the question only in relation to push carts?  Why not ask why carrying and/or push carts are not allowed at all times?

   There are many clubs that allow carrying when caddy isn't there, but don't allow a trolley.  I could name a ton.

Holy Toledo, I think I agree with you on 2nd thought.  what about clubs with small caddie programs, are trolleys welcome?

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