[Mac Plumart]

Scott...

Why don't you define quirk and/or post a picture of what you think quirk is?  I'm finding this thread is useful in showing that we all think different things are quirky.  To me the Sitwell green looks quirky, per your comments you don't.  I find Tobacco Road quirky...again per your comments you don't. 

What is quirky to you?

[Keith OHalloran]

David,
I was trying to make a point aboiut personal bias. I was speaking in hypotheticals in regard to Fazio and not hinting at an actual hole he has designed.
Interestingly, I think you helped make my point. The mere use of Fazio in a hypothetical comes at the peril of having to use his portfolio to justify bringing his name up.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I have to agree with Scott; I just don't see quirk in any of the above examples.

Quirk seems to be dependent on time and geographical location and also what you've experienced. In the UK&I, none of the above examples would be regarded as quirky. I also think that what some regard as quirk (e.g. the Dell) today, would not have been regarded as quirk 100 years ago.

In my opinion, quirk equates with something unusual, perhaps surprising, and quite often a little impractical, or even "unfair". Quirk isn't manufactured, it's the result of having to make do with what you find (the Pit at NB, Dell and Klondyke at Lahinch, the sheds at TOC) and incorporating it into the layout.

The course where I learned to play has a huge rock in the middle of the LZ of a par 5. The rock couldn't be moved or covered, so it was left there. I never considered it quirky, but a visitor might think it is.

Some of the modern attempts at at quirk fail, because they are manufactured. I think Hurdzan has done a couple of courses where the foundations of an old shed are visible. I don't view this as quirky, as it could have been removed in an afternoon.

[Scott Warren]

Mac,

I did say "most", not "all" of the pics.

I tend to agree with Donal that quirk is more often than not found rather than built. Building quirk to me is like breaking a beautiful girl's nose so she isn't as classically gorgeous.

The unique situation we're all in is that we have only our own experiences to guide us and form our views - I'd be amazed if anyone who has played any of the really quirky courses and holes of GB&I looked at the pics posted above and saw quirk in more than a couple (and the Sitwell green may well be one).

Perhaps you might write a sentence or two above about each example describing what you find quirky about them.

[Garland Bayley]

...

Kalen...where is that last picture from?  That is neat!!

No it's not. It is totally unmitigated crap.

[Adrian_Stiff]

[/quote]I can see how somebody might not like this, cant say I like the waterfall bit but overall I like this. Whats the feeling of others?

[Mac Plumart]

Quirk seems to be dependent on time and geographical location and also what you've experienced.

Building quirk to me is like breaking a beautiful girl's nose so she isn't as classically gorgeous.

Donal...I think you've NAILED it on why people say something is "quirky".

Scott...Freakin' classic!!!

Perhaps you might write a sentence or two above about each example describing what you find quirky about them.

Great idea, Scott.  I'll do only the pictures I posted.  

First off, I suppose I define quirk along the lines of something unique or peculiar, in fact I think this lines up with Webster's definition as well.  So, I think right off the bat Donal is spot on regarding his thoughts.  By definition, your idea of "quirk" is defined by what you've seen or experienced as inherent in the concept of quirk some is unique or peculiar.  If you haven't seen it or experienced it, it is unique to you.

Sitwell Green...quirky to me because I've never seen a green anywhere near the severe.  

Inwood mounds...I never seen little mounds surrounding the green in almost a perfect semi-circle.  Totally unnatural looking and odd, but I kind of found it neat.

Dismal River...a bunker right in the middle of a highly contoured green.  I've never seen it before or after.

Tobacco Road...That green looks to me like something Dali would paint.  Kind of like a false front near the front of the green, but instead of taking you off the green it flattens out into a putting surface.  Surreal bunkering surrounding it.  Almost nauseating to look at for me.

Paiute Wolf...A big man-made looking mound half hiding the green, three circle bunkers varying in size but in a staight line...and the basic idea of green green grass in the middle of a mountainish desert is odd/peculiar to me.

Anyway, that is what I see there and why, to me, they are quirky.  But, again, I think Donal has nailed it.  It is quirky to me as I haven't seen things like that before.  Perhaps others have and to them it isnt' quirky.  This concept is without question why having a universally accepted standard for quirk on a golf course is next to impossible.

And, Scott...my bad, you did say "most" not "all" of the photos were not quirky.  My apologies for the oversight.

[Kalen Braley]

Taking the lead of Mac,

I too looked at several definitions of quirk. In all of the definitions, I didn't see anything even remotely related to golf architecture.

So it would appear quirk will have to remain in the eye of the beholder as it pertains to golf holes.  Putting conditions on it like "must not be man-made", or "must be old timing" are complete subjective personal opinion.

[Eric Smith]

Leaving cool, natural features within the field of play that otherwise might be considered impractical is bold, creative, genius, etc to some...maybe not so much to others. Personally, I'm all for quirk. Preferably the natural kind.

The fronting dune at Friar's Head's 10th is a good example, imo.

Here's Ian Andrew's take.

[Garland Bayley]

Here are the first three definitions of quirk from my Websters
1. A sudden twist, turn, or stroke
2. an evasion, subterfuge, or quibble
3. a peculiarity, peculiar trait, or mannerism

When I am walking through nature and see something unnatural, I could consider it "a sudden twist, turn"; "an evasion, subterfuge"; or "a peculiarity". I find the picture of Engh's Black Rock all of these. It is as if Engh doesn't understand the concept of gravity. It certainly is a subterfuge.

Therefore, I think Melvyn is correct in saying that this website is mistaken in applying the concept of quirk to the golf courses on the British Isles, as they are laid out on natural landforms, and are the opposite of an evasion or subterfuge.

[John Mayhugh]

Seems that there are two different issues:

What is quirk?  
I think terms from dictionary definitions do fine here: peculiarity, idiosyncrasy, odd, distinctive.  To me, quirk comes from those features that are part of a course and/or its setting that help to make it unique and memorable.  Something like the bunker in the middle of a green at Dismal River (and also present at Riviera) that Mac mentioned is surely quirk.  

What quirk is good?
This is really more the question.  For me, natural can be really, really good, but man-made often detracts rather than adds to the experience.  Good or bad is really in the eye of the beholder.  

[Mark Pearce]

I'm going to disagree with the proposal that quirk needs to be natural to be good.  To me, Kington is as quirky a course as I have played.  It is also almost as artificial a course as I have played (at least at the greens).

[Scott Warren]

Mac, John and Mark,

The hole that made me stop short of saying quirk can't be built is #6 at Riviera. It's unconventional and it works.

But I do think building quirk is a tightrope walk over a tank filled with mutated sea bass and I'm certain that of those who attempt it, many more fail than succeed.

[Mac Plumart]

I'm certain that of those who attempt it, many more fail than succeed.

I think you just might be correct. 

[James Boon]

I have to agree with Scott and Donal's earlier posts, I'm still not seeing that much quirky stuff here, some, but not much.

Perhaps a good definition of quirk would be that unless it would fit in at Painswick, its not really quirky? 

Cheers,

James

[David Kelly]

David,
I was trying to make a point aboiut personal bias. I was speaking in hypotheticals in regard to Fazio and not hinting at an actual hole he has designed.
Interestingly, I think you helped make my point. The mere use of Fazio in a hypothetical comes at the peril of having to use his portfolio to justify bringing his name up.

Fazio's name caught my eye in your post because, while you were using him to make a hypothetical point, to me his style is characterized by its utter lack of quirk so it seemed out of place.

The problem is that if you start with the assumption that someone's opinion is the result of a bias then a discussion has nowhere to go. The type of people that come to this website are not a random sampling of golfers, by and large most of them have a similar outlook on golf course architecture and the word outlook is not a synonym for bias.

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