[Matt_Ward]

I think one of the best ways to describe TF from both a pre and post situation -- in his earliest days -- not too long after the stunning success he had at Wild Dunes -- TF and his team became enamored with the FRAME concept -- everything reolved around creating an image that provided a tie in to the outside elements -- the more viseral components to enhance the obvious and for many players that became the easiest thing for them to grasp -- with happy members / players you could then sell the real estate so developers could easily employ him to make even more $$. I'm sure Discovery loves what TF adds to their bottom line.

But for those who wanted the INNER DETAILS - many of the TF designs lacked any real compelling storyline beyond the visceral appeal I just mentioned.

Somehow TF has evolved his thinking -- I concur with Tom D that it may have happened through the involvement of new associates who pushed the envelope in certain ways and I give TF credit for such people -- whether he blessed their contributions or not -- I can see a clear movement away -- not in all designs mind you -- that the integration of real and diverse shot values are now in full force at the higher level designs I have played.

Galloyway National, in my home state, is a great example of that. I can see it in a range of other courses where TF and his team have trried to continue with the FRAME but also provided INNER DETAILS -- you can see that around a number of the greens that have come to life with a few of the higher profile courses.

That's why I am amazed that certain raters have still cotninued to elevate THE FRAME courses -- which it seems is the case for a place like Mountaintop in NC.

Tom D mentioned something rather interesting in an earlier post -- few architects really keep the "push" going as they get on in years. It's just so e-z to mail it in and give the clients the same tired version with a twist here ands there.

TF and his team have broken through in a few designs which are devoid of singulariity to THE FRAME and now have added a good rich assortment of details. His overall batting average is still so-so -- happens when you have some turkeys in your portfolio -- but there are some clear winners that demonstrate his capacity is fully able to hit the long home run ball for success at times.

[Mac Plumart]

Nice post Matt.  One of your best, I think.  I appreciate the well thought out and explained post.

[Andy Troeger]

I can't add anything personal to the Mountaintop discussion, but I've had other people who I consider knowledgeable about the topic that have raved about Mountaintop and said it was better than Wade Hampton. I've been surprised that it hadn't shown up on one of these lists already--it did well on the Digest Best New a few years ago as well. I keep talking about heading that way, so hopefully I'll find out for myself eventually.

[Mac Plumart]

Another thing I think we all need to be aware of is the type of golf each GCA member likes.  Maybe it would be helpful if we all put a note under our name regarding the type of golf we prefer using the Nuzzo three classes, challenge centric, beauty centric, or adventure centric.  It really might help out a lot.

Regarding Mountaintop, I get the feeling Bob Crosby didn't like it all that much.  If memory serves me correctly, Bob is a pretty damn good golfer...maybe a 1 handicap.  Might be be a challenge centric golfer looking to challenge his game rather than enjoy the apparent natural beauty that Mountaintop brings to the table.  (guessing here as I haven't played Mountaintop or had the pleasure of playing golf with Bob).

And, also, maybe we need to bear in mind that these lists are generally made up of an amalagation of the three golfing types.  If a reader of the lists is at one of the extremes, the lists (and/or a course or two on the the list) will not jive at all with their wants from a golf course.

Perhaps Kingsley is that way and maybe it is on the adventure side of things.  Again, guessing as I haven't played it.

Perhaps something to keep in mind...perhaps a load of garbage...who knows...just thought I mention it.

[John Kavanaugh]

I realized today that it is hard to set a watch if you don't know the time.

[Joe Bausch]

I realized today that it is hard to set a watch if you don't know the time.

Do you need a watch then or is it simply a fashion accessory?

[Matt_Ward]

I'd like to know from those familar with it -- what makes Wade Hampton so special ?

I've played it and frankly it cuts a fine picture but I'm stuck in wondering where's the beef there ?

If people see Mountaintop ahead of it -- I have to wonder on both fronts.

Thanks ...

p.s. Have not heard from anyone who has played Shooting Star thus far.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The Alotian Club is a mid level Fazio in my opinion. I looked at around 9 holes last summer while in Little Rock on business. The day was not fit for play. The club has a lot of rules and policies driven by the owner to be diplomatic. It is very hard to get on. They do all the nongolf things very well though.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

Can you place other TF courses you have played in the same "mid-level" ones you have played for a reference point ?

Are you saying that it's the other elements (the penchant for privacy) that drive the meter of interest and far less so
the golf design?

And, when you say looked around -- can you define that a bit more ?

[David Camponi]

I realized today that it is hard to set a watch if you don't know the time.

I've played both Wade and MT; they are both solid golf courses.  The thing they both do very well is give raters the top of the line treatment.  I believe that is what really makes them stand out; they also have a reputation of being hard to get on which makes the rater feel that much more special when they call and are told come on.....and you have to wear pants!!

[Tom_Doak]

I realized today that it is hard to set a watch if you don't know the time.

I've played both Wade and MT; they are both solid golf courses.  The thing they both do very well is give raters the top of the line treatment.  I believe that is what really makes them stand out; they also have a reputation of being hard to get on which makes the rater feel that much more special when they call and are told come on.....and you have to wear pants!!

Was this a serious post, or tongue-in-cheek?

[Mac Plumart]

I took it as a serious post.  I would guess that many things have and effect on human behavior. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I was serious in that I had to reset a number of mechanical watches due to Day Light Savings.  Because I live on the Indiana border of the Eastern Time Zone I am on Central time while my wife and youngest son are on Eastern.  Several watches had not been brought up to date because of February.  My wife keeps her watch partially on Sydney time which also moves their clocks up but either a day before or after us, I still don't know.  Even my iPhone had an analog time and digital time differing by an hour for a while.  So yes, it is hard to set a watch if you don't know the time.

btw:  I started collecting mechanical watches because Jeff Dawson said it was cool.

[Mark Saltzman]

I realized today that it is hard to set a watch if you don't know the time.

I've played both Wade and MT; they are both solid golf courses.  The thing they both do very well is give raters the top of the line treatment.  I believe that is what really makes them stand out; they also have a reputation of being hard to get on which makes the rater feel that much more special when they call and are told come on.....and you have to wear pants!!

Personally, I don't really believe this.  If I visit a course, an 'exclusive' reputation or 'top of the line treatment' really make no difference to me.  I am there to rate the golf course and that is, in reality, all I care about.

Mark

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, Sage Valley is another club with similar very upscale feel, but built for different reasons that flow from Augusta National. Squire Creek in Choudrant, La for golf but not as flashy off the course.

[David Camponi]

I realized today that it is hard to set a watch if you don't know the time.

I've played both Wade and MT; they are both solid golf courses.  The thing they both do very well is give raters the top of the line treatment.  I believe that is what really makes them stand out; they also have a reputation of being hard to get on which makes the rater feel that much more special when they call and are told come on.....and you have to wear pants!!

Personally, I don't really believe this.  If I visit a course, an 'exclusive' reputation or 'top of the line treatment' really make no difference to me.  I am there to rate the golf course and that is, in reality, all I care about.

Mark

Wow, pretty cool that you are the exception to all human behavior, and can totally compartmentalize each aspect of your life, but for the majority of us more "normal" humans being able to get on an "exclusive" club and being treated like royalty gives you a reason to change that "aesthetic" from a 6.5 to a 7.0 or the "walkability" from a 8.5 to a 9.0.

[Mark Saltzman]

David,

I've always thought I was special .

No, but really, I have only been to one club that seemed to treat me "like royalty."  Honestly, I didn't like it.  I don't want to be asked repeatedly if I need something or if I'm enjoying myself... I would much prefer to fly under the radar.

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

David C:

What does giving raters the top of the line treatment have to do with the actual design of either course (WH or Mountaintop) ?

Does it matter if the customer service side even factored into the equation ?

Can you spell out any details tied to the architecture because frankly that's what interests most here.

Tiger,

I read your answer but you need to flush out your response a good bit more -- re-read what I asked and I think it's quite specific -- a bit more detail would help me understand you better. thanks ...

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