[JNC Lyon]

Robert,

I guess I'd like to see address my specific comments about holes at Galloway rather than just listing New Jersey courses that are better.  I don't think Hackensack is nearly in Galloway's league, and I also preferred GN to Seaview Bay (The Executive Course).  I like both of those golf courses a lot, but they are inferior to Galloway in many respects.

[JNC Lyon]

Sev - gutted I missed you at Paraparaumu but I've just been talking with John about your game there - sounds like you had a good day.  Small world that I now see your name on here.  That is golf...

I played GN in high summer last year when it was playing firm (and the bugs were out - sorry to mention it Sev!).  I'll put some photos up when I work out how to do this.

JC we played it in the same wind as you did so can relate to your comments on how the first two par threes played.

2 is a great short par three - the photos don't do justice to the roll offs on the left of the green and the pitch from back to front.  Early in the round to have your short game put under this type of pressure is great.  I heard there was a leading amateur tournament here in '10 and the guys got hammered by #2.

As for TF,  I know very little about his work but I (think) have played four of his courses (Waterville, Black Diamond, Caves Valley & GN) and judging by his work there some comments read above may be unreasonably harsh. And am I right in saying he leads any renovations at Augusta?

Michael,

I love the short grass left of the second green.  It offers a tremendous variety for recovery options, and its severity is plenty reasonable on a short par three.  Additionally, the collection area is banked up on the far side to keep golf balls from rolling too far away from the green, which is a feature that Brad Klein and Ron Prichard praised in their Mountain Ridge presentations.  I heard the same story from our caddies about the US Am qualifier, where the scoring average on 2 was way above par.  Rest assured though, 3 is very attainable there--you just have to hit the right shot.

Fazio is the leader on the Augusta renovations, which I only see as a bad thing for Augusta.  TF needs to stick to doing original courses like Galloway and stay away from classic courses.

[Michael Goldstein]

JC, what changes at Augusta don't you like? (all I know about Augusta is what I've watched on tele which is normally only the back nine as it's the early hours of the morning down here!)

To generalise, GN doesn't obliterate you and position off the tee is imperative.  On our trip, we traveled north up the East Coast and it was around this stage in NJ that I could start leaving the driver in the bag and working the ball around the course with 2 iron more often. 

I loved the short par four on the back nine, I think 12 where the ball rolls around that green like crazy.  And then a couple of serious golf holes afterwards that separate the men from the boys.

 

[Sev K-H Keil]

Michael --- sorry to have missed you at Paraparaumu Beach. What a wonderful golf club --- Leo certainly gets it right. Without doubt, my favorite course in NZ (and that includes CK and KC).

Regarding the Galloway / TF discussion, now might be a good time for me to disengage from this thread...

JNC and Joe --- thank you for the thoughtful comments and great photos. My offer still stands to organize an outing later this spring / summer. We'll try to pick a bug-free day.

[JNC Lyon]

JC, what changes at Augusta don't you like? (all I know about Augusta is what I've watched on tele which is normally only the back nine as it's the early hours of the morning down here!)

To generalise, GN doesn't obliterate you and position off the tee is imperative.  On our trip, we traveled north up the East Coast and it was around this stage in NJ that I could start leaving the driver in the bag and working the ball around the course with 2 iron more often. 

I loved the short par four on the back nine, I think 12 where the ball rolls around that green like crazy.  And then a couple of serious golf holes afterwards that separate the men from the boys.

Mike,

I think that's a good assessment of Galloway.  Position off the tee is important, but the play around the greens (especially holes like 12) is of the utmost importance.

Like you I've only watched Augusta on TV.  From what I've read, Fazio hasn't done more than add tees and trees.  The trees are a major source of consternation on GCA and elsewhere, and I agree that they are a bad thing.  I was watching the 1986 Masters highlights the other day, and it struck me that Nicklaus would not have birdied 17 with the trees where they are today.  Imagine that, Jack Nicklaus NOT winning the 1986 Masters!

I guess my comment about Augusta was more a criticism of Fazio's renovations of classics than anything else.  I wish Augusta would hire a Mackenzie expert, which Fazio is not.

[JNC Lyon]

Michael --- sorry to have missed you at Paraparaumu Beach. What a wonderful golf club --- Leo certainly gets it right. Without doubt, my favorite course in NZ (and that includes CK and KC).

Regarding the Galloway / TF discussion, now might be a good time for me to disengage from this thread...

JNC and Joe --- thank you for the thoughtful comments and great photos. My offer still stands to organize an outing later this spring / summer. We'll try to pick a bug-free day.

Thanks again Sev.  I'd love to see Galloway and have Chris loop for us again later this year.

[Mark McKeever]

JC, what changes at Augusta don't you like? (all I know about Augusta is what I've watched on tele which is normally only the back nine as it's the early hours of the morning down here!)

To generalise, GN doesn't obliterate you and position off the tee is imperative.  On our trip, we traveled north up the East Coast and it was around this stage in NJ that I could start leaving the driver in the bag and working the ball around the course with 2 iron more often. 

I loved the short par four on the back nine, I think 12 where the ball rolls around that green like crazy.  And then a couple of serious golf holes afterwards that separate the men from the boys.

 

For starters, how about the rough edged bunkering...Not to mention making it 9,000 yards.

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Never said you can't have an opinion -- but hang it on some real research -- not the quick variety.


Robert MD:

You must be joking truly.

Deal? Seaview ? ACCC? Pine Barrens ? I'm rolling on the flloor -- please stop.

Hackensack and Alpine are fine Tillie layouts but Galloway National is the better overall test and has the greater variety of holes. Neither would make my personal top ten but are good.

Montclair (which nines - ask the better players around NJ what they think of the layout and the results will shock you -- they played the State AM there last year, and while I like the course, it was not loved by any means).

GN can easily clean the clock of half the list you mentioned and only in about 5-6 instances is the classic courses ahead of it. You'll have to share your reasoning on the36-hole layout in Springifleld too.

[Joe Bausch]

This was my first visit to Galloway.  Still digesting it, but it is very nice.  More on that later.

#4.  No 2 stroke hole, a dogleg left par 4 (446 yards).











#5.  Par 3 (189 yards).  Short and left are out of play.







Because of the steepness of the hill left of the green, you can end up with a downhill lie in the bunker (read:  next to impossible recovery).





#6.  Par 5 (520 yards).

The HHA is on the tee shot.











The rest of the first nine this afternoon...

[JNC Lyon]

Joe,

I'm glad you got an action shot of my worst shot of the day out of the bunker on 5.

I love those greens on 5 and 6.  They are very wild and not what I expected from Fazio.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I'm glad you got an action shot of my worst shot of the day out of the bunker on 5.

I love those greens on 5 and 6.  They are very wild and not what I expected from Fazio.

If I was to nitpick, I might like that far edge of the bunker to be more steep to minimize the chances of what happened to you.  I commented this to our caddy, and he said your next to impossible shot was typical over there.

And in the interest of fairness, here is JNC on his approach shot on #4 after a nicely placed drive:

[Kyle Harris]

The common and tired refrain that TF has no strategic impulses is getting tiresome -- there's plenty there - clearly, if one is paying attention.

When people call you haughty, it's because of self-aggrandizing statements such as this. Drop it.

I've not played Galloway, but it looks quite appealing from the photos.

[Joe Bausch]

#7.  Par 4 (390 yards).

With water left and the fw narrowing up, care must be taken on the tee shot.  If you do up the neck a bit, you may end up with a downhill stance approach shot.



Lay back a bit off the tee and have a flat lie w/ a view like this:



I was allergic to the water left, but ended up in the front of the right fw bunker, which is simply no bargain at all:







#8.  Par 3 (196 yards) with what I would call a redan-inspired green:









#9.  Par 5 (539 yards).

The fw landing area is two-tiered, with the left side higher than the right.  I believe those looking to get home in two should take the high road.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Excuse me -- I am sick and tired of people like you and others who turn the subject around. The idea that TF has top tier layouts that are always ant-strategy is flat out wrong and GN is just one course that demonstrates that.

Why not lower your empty and meaningless retort and see / play the course(s) in question before barking at me.

How bout firing at the people who make such statements -- or is your bent the predictable let's fire at Ward 24/7?

Play the course and then understand why would I said was said. Nuff said on that front.

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: It's kind of funny how we agree so much on GN and we disagree so much on the PGA Champion course.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

I've enjoyed every Tom Fazio layout I've played. These are, both World Woods courses, Hunters Green in Tampa and Pine Hill in NJ. I don't turn down the opportunity to play Tom Fazio courses and never have.

My comments are directed at your rather poor online personality that does nothing to reflect on the type of person you actually are. You come across as boorish and authoritative instead of insightful and critical. 

[Mike Cirba]

Sorry I missed what looks to be a fabulous day.

Galloway is indeed in my very top Tom Fazio courses, as well as my top NJ courses, and it's a real treat.

Glad you all got to see it.

[Terry Lavin]

Galloway being a very good course is an aesthetic illusion.  The course plays brutally tough when playing firm and fast-normal seasonal conditions.  Like all Fazio courses, it is completely devoid of strategy and preferred shotmaking angles. 

RMD:


I'm no expert on Fazio courses, but this has the whiff of overstatement.  Of the one's I've played and enjoyed (Butler, Lake Nona, Conway Farms, Shadow Creek, Berkeley Hall, Belfair), I would disagree that they are devoid of "strategy" or "preferred shotmaking angles".  They might be more demanding in many respects, but I don't think they are what you accuse them of being.  To me, this sounds like the oft-repeated plaint that some raise when a hole has fairway bunkers that come into play or narrow fairways that cut down on "options".  I've heard people say that they like all the options that wide fairways provide, but to me, it sounds like they want a design that is eternally forgiving.  If you hit it into a fairway bunker that you were trying to carry, that doesn't mean that you are limited in options, it means that you chose a risky option, rather than hitting off to the side or laying up.

In terms of my personal taste, I'm a convert of the minimalist style, but that doesn't mean that I think that everybody else's courses are monochromatic.  Not saying I haven't played some Fazio courses that are monotonous (the new Wynn course comes to mind), but I think generalizations like this are not particularly fair.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Terry.
Maybe what I see in great courses is not so evident,  Though out of commission for the next few months, my golf game can b reak par on tournament prepared courses-I have a playing resume.  When you tee it up on a C&C or a Doak, since they are favorites of many, options are there.  Ballyneal and Colorado Golf Club can play had, but they have great architecture.

As for Galloway, on the first hole the better approach is from the left rough even though the bunkering is on the right. On the 4th, tthere is no gain for cutting the corner because the ball will end up on the right side of the fairway and have tree blockage.  I can keep going on-the course is hard and beautiful, but could be radically improved by a more srategic architect

Matt,
our favorite courses definately differ. 

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

Disagreements can and will happen -- think of it this way -- we seem to agree way more than we disagree. That's fine and dandy. The Champ in FL is an acquired taste !!!

Robert MD:

I have no issue with disagreement -- but you need to spell out how the NJ courses you mentioned are ahead of GN. I can see roughly 6-7 of them ahead of it -- but far too many of the ones you listed are far from being half as good as the TF layout is.

You also need to spell out in greater detail the lack of strategic calculations at GN. "Radically" improved how ?

Once you do that we can have a serious discussion. Thanks ...

Kyle:

My comments on TF are based on actual experiences -- 75+ of them. When people make statements about any architect -- notably about TF and usually they possess a very limited portfolio I get rather annoyed that the same venom is not directed at others.

My comments spoke to what GN provides and what TF has done for the upper tier of courses he has done. He has had issues with plenty of courses that are fairly pedestrian and lack any real differentiation. GN is far beyond that and I have stated in endless detail how the course stacks up and what it provides from a design standpoint.

Without sounding pompous -- I have been insightful and critical of the full range of courses I have opined about. Maybe you need to read the comments a bit more and understand that when people fire generalized comments as Robert has done that a reply is in order to him as Terry so rightly pointed out in his response.

Stand by what I said -- GN easily makes a top ten in NJ in my book.

[Michael Blake]

Robert MD:

You must be joking truly.

Deal? Seaview ? ACCC? Pine Barrens ? I'm rolling on the flloor -- please stop.
 

Matt,

He mentioned Hawk Pointe too.  Crazy talk.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Agreed -- Hawk Point is a fine layout but nothing remotely close to the same page with Galloway National.

I chuckle when people say I am the one drinking kool-aid regarding course assessments.

Thanks for weighing in with a bit more perspective.

Michael -- quick question -- your personal top ten in NJ would be ?

[Michael Blake]

Matt,

There are many I haven't played.

But Plainfiled is my #1.

The others I'd need to really think about to 'rank' them.  Choosing amongst Hidden Creek, Hollywood, ACCC, Hamilton Farm, Ridge at Back Brook, Neshanic, Mountain Ridge, as well as others. And my favorite growing up in the '80's...Francis Byrne

[Joe Bausch]

RMD,

     How would you change the 4th hole to improve it?

Joe

[Jim Briggs]

No doubt that Galloway is one Fazio's better courses. I prefer the nearby Hidden Creek. Different strokes for different folks.

Steve,

I have not played Hidden Creek, but it looks phenomenal.  How similar is it to Galloway?

JNC,

There is a couple, fellow members of ours at Hidden Creek, who are local to the area, and whom are also members at Galloway.  I've asked them the comparison question and the response I got suggested that for them HC provide more options for the golfer in terms of shots, particuarly on the approaches.  I certainly got the sense from them that they get the greens rolling quite a bit quicker at Galloway then they do at HC.  Lot's of internal contour at HC, so not sure how that compares to Galloway.  They described Galloway feeling like more of a relentless test, as opposed to HC which doen't make you feel beat up, even though their handicap differentials are about the same at each course.  When asked how they would split 10 rounds between the two (or 50 rounds a season in their case), for him it ends up being about 70% HC/30% Galloway, and for her it seem like about 90% HC/10%.

For others that have played both, I'm interested in your thoughts on the above.

Jim

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