[BCowan]

Tim,
Your generation is forcing the private club model to change.  One of the biggest issues will be the mobility of your genration and how long they remain in one place with a particular job.  Not knowing of one will spend his entire working life in one town will have a huge impact on initiation fees.  Your generation will not pay the large initiation fees unless they know they will be there for a long time.  It's going to become interesting...

Mike,

To further your point, building a resort-style pool area, a sports bar for less than 10% of the membership, and relaxing dress rules for folks that are joining based on cost per round is a death sentence.  Charging $250/mo for a guy that plays four days a week, when you can charge double, set a pot of coffee in the pro shop and not have to go in debt is the way clubs outside of the top 200 have survived.

    What is a resort style pool area?  A sports bar or a mens back bar is very profitable year round part of most clubs.  Relaxing dress rules have nothing to do with this.  How much activity is used in the dinning hall year round?  $250 a month clubs do exceptional.  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

Mike,

   Thanks for you post.  Your outlook is spot on.  It is a very important issue.  I have many friends throughout the country that are there for a short time and looking for private golf, but initiation is a deal breaker.  Ala the answer for them is retail golf.  nothing to see here, move along.  Lets put on our blazers and cry too many golf courses and pray for attrition. 

  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

yup. 

[PCCraig]

Since this thread has turned toward the economics of private clubs, I'd be curious to hear about some of y'all's clubs' attitudes toward junior/"young executive" membership. Certainly only interested in generalities, because like Mr Solow says, there are all kinds.

I'm mostly interested in how/whether clubs' attitudes toward recruitment of younger members (in their 20s and 30s, particularly) has evolved over the past decade. I'm 25 now and hoping I'll be able to join a club before I'm 30. In what informal research I've done, it seems there is a huge range of attitudes clubs have towards prospective members my age.

Does it seem that older members of clubs are generally pretty willing to support younger members by allowing those younger members to pay significantly less in initiation and dues, or is the attitude more that they should have to pay up essentially as much as the longer-tenured folks? Has this attitude changed in the last decade or so?

Tim,

Every club is looking for a new generation of younger members. There are quite a few old line clubs here in the Twin Cities that are doing very well, but are always looking to add younger members and families...they all know they have to in order to survive over the next 30-40 years.

And that's not just here in Minnesota. I know of one 'top 100' club in Chicago that has been (very) selectively adding members 30 and under for what averages to something like $200/mo. in dues and a very low initial initiation.

[Mark Pritchett]

Tim,
Your generation is forcing the private club model to change.  One of the biggest issues will be the mobility of your genration and how long they remain in one place with a particular job.  Not knowing of one will spend his entire working life in one town will have a huge impact on initiation fees.  Your generation will not pay the large initiation fees unless they know they will be there for a long time.  It's going to become interesting...

Mike,

To further your point, building a resort-style pool area, a sports bar for less than 10% of the membership, and relaxing dress rules for folks that are joining based on cost per round is a death sentence.  Charging $250/mo for a guy that plays four days a week, when you can charge double, set a pot of coffee in the pro shop and not have to go in debt is the way clubs outside of the top 200 have survived.

    What is a resort style pool area?  A sports bar or a mens back bar is very profitable year round part of most clubs.  Relaxing dress rules have nothing to do with this.  How much activity is used in the dinning hall year round?  $250 a month clubs do exceptional.  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

Mike,

   Thanks for you post.  Your outlook is spot on.  It is a very important issue.  I have many friends throughout the country that are there for a short time and looking for private golf, but initiation is a deal breaker.  Ala the answer for them is retail golf.  nothing to see here, move along.  Lets put on our blazers and cry too many golf courses and pray for attrition. 

  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

yup. 

I give you credit, you are usually able to back up your comments by citing "your friends". 

[Scott Wintersteen]

Since this thread has turned toward the economics of private clubs, I'd be curious to hear about some of y'all's clubs' attitudes toward junior/"young executive" membership. Certainly only interested in generalities, because like Mr Solow says, there are all kinds.

I'm mostly interested in how/whether clubs' attitudes toward recruitment of younger members (in their 20s and 30s, particularly) has evolved over the past decade. I'm 25 now and hoping I'll be able to join a club before I'm 30. In what informal research I've done, it seems there is a huge range of attitudes clubs have towards prospective members my age.

Does it seem that older members of clubs are generally pretty willing to support younger members by allowing those younger members to pay significantly less in initiation and dues, or is the attitude more that they should have to pay up essentially as much as the longer-tenured folks? Has this attitude changed in the last decade or so?

Tim,

I think most clubs are open to the recruitement of younger members because they know these people will represent the future of the club.  In the Chicago market there has been a big drive to bring in junior members at most of the clubs.  Also another thing I am seeing is the a delay in the regular member conversions.  A lot of the clubs had it mandatory to convert to regular membership at 35 years old and many are now switching that 40 years old.

[Carl Johnson]

Since this thread has turned toward the economics of private clubs, I'd be curious to hear about some of y'all's clubs' attitudes toward junior/"young executive" membership. Certainly only interested in generalities, because like Mr Solow says, there are all kinds. . . .

Tim, my golf club has two levels of junior/young adult memberships.  I'm not sure, but I think that if you go the junior route you do not have voting privileges until you upgrade to full resident.  Otherwise, everything is the same.  From my own standpoint, as a senior member, which I've aged and tenured into, my view is that the club is very welcoming to younger members -- I certainly am.  Who wants a club with just a bunch of old guys.  Our club's average age is around 48.  Yes, clearly, clubs succeed in different ways, and I think our success (right now we have 500 members, a wait list and solid books, so to me that spells success) with this approach (and other things we do) has to do with differentiating ourselves in our market and from our competition.  Here are the deals:

Junior Adult Membership (age 22 to 29) – Initiation Fee $10,000.

Down payment Due at Joining - $7,000
Amount Due end of Year 1, 2 and 3 - $1,000
Amount due at Age 30 - $7,500
Amount Due at Age 35 – $ 7,500
Monthly Dues: $ 311

Young Adult Membership (age 30 to 34) – Initiation Fee $17,500
Down payment Due at Joining - $7,000
Amount Due end of Year 1, 2, and 3 - $3,500
Amount Due at Age 35 – $ 7,500
Monthly Dues: $ 311

Note: regular dues are $367 and everyone pays the same food min. of $25/month.  Going back to the title of this tread, we have zero unique services (take that back -- the bartenders remember my preferred post-round beverage  ).  Come and play golf and that's it.  If you want more stuff, there are other, more costly, clubs in our market you can join.

  

[Brent Hutto]

Going back to the title of this tread, we have zero unique services (take that back -- the bartenders remember my preferred post-round beverage  ).  Come and play golf and that's it.  If you want more stuff, there are other, more costly, clubs in our market you can join.

In case I gave a misleading impression in my earlier post, let me add that one of the two ladies who work in the snack bar knows to save me a brownie when she sees me playing.

[BCowan]

Tim,
Your generation is forcing the private club model to change.  One of the biggest issues will be the mobility of your genration and how long they remain in one place with a particular job.  Not knowing of one will spend his entire working life in one town will have a huge impact on initiation fees.  Your generation will not pay the large initiation fees unless they know they will be there for a long time.  It's going to become interesting...

Mike,

To further your point, building a resort-style pool area, a sports bar for less than 10% of the membership, and relaxing dress rules for folks that are joining based on cost per round is a death sentence.  Charging $250/mo for a guy that plays four days a week, when you can charge double, set a pot of coffee in the pro shop and not have to go in debt is the way clubs outside of the top 200 have survived.

    What is a resort style pool area?  A sports bar or a mens back bar is very profitable year round part of most clubs.  Relaxing dress rules have nothing to do with this.  How much activity is used in the dinning hall year round?  $250 a month clubs do exceptional.  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

Mike,

   Thanks for you post.  Your outlook is spot on.  It is a very important issue.  I have many friends throughout the country that are there for a short time and looking for private golf, but initiation is a deal breaker.  Ala the answer for them is retail golf.  nothing to see here, move along.  Lets put on our blazers and cry too many golf courses and pray for attrition. 

  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

yup. 

I give you credit, you are usually able to back up your comments by citing "your friends". 

Mark,

   I've actually sited on here a 350k maint. budget and the name in the past.  Almost lost a friend over it.  Privileged information.  That person wouldn't of told me that info if he hadn't liked or respected my outlook.  I found having friends is an enjoyable way to go through life.  

Carl,

excellent post as usual. 

[archie_struthers]

Just did a short scan of the usual arguments regarding clubs and direction they are going . As Mr Solow succinctly reminds us all one size doesn't fit all !   I guess I'm from the school that doesn't want someone fawning over my clubs as I'm constantly changing wedges,putters etc. however our bag guys do plenty for me over the course of the year, whether it be retrieving lost rangefinder , phone ,sandals, hat, car keys. Etc

For our elderly members they help them carry clubs , find lost keys , hats , beer , friends , etc etc.


I'm a tipping guy, and having done that job , it promotes good service ! At the end of the day a good employee gives good service to all regardless of their being frugal or even cheap .  If u are nice it helps !

Their are so many things good employees do that help the  club run well I think spending a little gets u a lot

[Tim Martin]

Just did a short scan of the usual arguments regarding clubs and direction they are going . As Mr Solow succinctly reminds us all one size doesn't fit all !   I guess I'm from the school that doesn't want someone fawning over my clubs as I'm constantly changing wedges,putters etc. however our bag guys do plenty for me over the course of the year, whether it be retrieving lost rangefinder , phone ,sandals, hat, car keys. Etc

For our elderly members they help them carry clubs , find lost keys , hats , beer , friends , etc etc.


I'm a tipping guy, and having done that job , it promotes good service ! At the end of the day a good employee gives good service to all regardless of their being frugal or even cheap .  If u are nice it helps !

Their are so many things good employees do that help the  club run well I think spending a little gets u a lot

The service model at Greate Bay works great from the bag guys to the shop staff and restaurant. I am also used to tipping and have no problem whatsoever if that is what's in place. As far as guests being put out as to having to tip a valet, lockeroom attendant etc. I don't remember hearing much in the way of complaining regardless of where I have been. In a service business it is nice to be able to show your appreciation for someone that enhanced the experience.

[BCowan]

2 of the 4 courses I've worked at in my younger days had no tipping policies.  Both non tipping clubs allowed us practice and playing privileges.  There is nothing like hitting 400 balls a day when your young at a top facility.  So weighing that in I'd much rather get min. wage with practice and playing privileges than tips.  Both is the best from an employee standpoint, but for a golf club you see the other side.   

Allowing help to use those facilities on their off time is very beneficial to a club in the long term imo. 

My definition of cheap is much different than many on here.  If you use a caddy, get shoes shined, or valet, ect. you should tip well imo.  This calling people who don't have discretionary income and act their wage through being responsible cheap annoys me.  If you use extra services pay well, if you don't want those services, fine by me.   

[Tim Martin]

2 of the 4 courses I've worked at in my younger days had no tipping policies.  Both non tipping clubs allowed us practice and playing privileges.  There is nothing like hitting 400 balls a day when your young at a top facility.  So weighing that in I'd much rather get min. wage with practice and playing privileges than tips.  Both is the best from an employee standpoint, but for a golf club you see the other side.   

Allowing help to use those facilities on their off time is very beneficial to a club in the long term imo. 

My definition of cheap is much different than many on here.  If you use a caddy, get shoes shined, or valet, ect. you should tip well imo.  This calling people who don't have discretionary income and act their wage through being responsible cheap annoys me.  If you use extra services pay well, if you don't want those services, fine by me.   

I don't know any club that ever said to an employee that you can either get cash tips or use the range/golf course. Regardless of the tipping policy most clubs afford their employees use of the golf course/range at certain times and days of the week. I agree that one of the greatest perks for a younger person is to get to play and practice and nothing was better than having a pile of guys from the caddie yard having the golf course to ourselves on a Monday afternoon.

[BCowan]

2 of the 4 courses I've worked at in my younger days had no tipping policies.  Both non tipping clubs allowed us practice and playing privileges.  There is nothing like hitting 400 balls a day when your young at a top facility.  So weighing that in I'd much rather get min. wage with practice and playing privileges than tips.  Both is the best from an employee standpoint, but for a golf club you see the other side.   

Allowing help to use those facilities on their off time is very beneficial to a club in the long term imo. 

My definition of cheap is much different than many on here.  If you use a caddy, get shoes shined, or valet, ect. you should tip well imo.  This calling people who don't have discretionary income and act their wage through being responsible cheap annoys me.  If you use extra services pay well, if you don't want those services, fine by me.   

I don't know any club that ever said to an employee that you can either get cash tips or use the range/golf course. Regardless of the tipping policy most clubs afford their employees use of the golf course/range at certain times and days of the week. I agree that one of the greatest perks for a younger person is to get to play and practice and nothing was better than having a pile of guys from the caddie yard having the golf course to ourselves on a Monday afternoon.

  I never said that an employee can dictate tipping policy at a club, but they can work at another course that has tipping.  Yes, most clubs allow employees to play on Mondays or whatever day they are closed.  I'm talking 7 days a week at starters/pro discretion.  hitting range balls on a Sat. morning prime time (assuming all spots aren't taken).  That was for bag room, starters, and rangers/player assist.  That was perk offered so kids would work in the bag room instead of the more lucrative caddying.  So we agree for the most part. 

Back to the thread title.  The coolest thing I've seen a private club do is have all par 3's lasered with the exact yardage to the pin on the scorecard.  Scorecards were printed every morning.  Obviously this prob isn't cost effective for most places to do.   

[Josh Tarble]

A club I was fortunate to play this past weekend had the greatest margaritas I've ever imbibed.  That and fresh balls on the range.

[Mark Pritchett]

2 of the 4 courses I've worked at in my younger days had no tipping policies.  Both non tipping clubs allowed us practice and playing privileges.  There is nothing like hitting 400 balls a day when your young at a top facility.  So weighing that in I'd much rather get min. wage with practice and playing privileges than tips.  Both is the best from an employee standpoint, but for a golf club you see the other side.   

Allowing help to use those facilities on their off time is very beneficial to a club in the long term imo. 

My definition of cheap is much different than many on here.  If you use a caddy, get shoes shined, or valet, ect. you should tip well imo.  This calling people who don't have discretionary income and act their wage through being responsible cheap annoys me.  If you use extra services pay well, if you don't want those services, fine by me.   

Wow, pretty cool the course(s) you worked at let you hit 400 balls, at what 30 seconds per ball, for 2 hours on Saturdays (or "prime time") yeah that sounds believable.   

[Carl Johnson]

. . . Back to the thread title.  The coolest thing I've seen a private club do is have all par 3's lasered with the exact yardage to the pin on the scorecard.  Scorecards were printed every morning.  Obviously this prob isn't cost effective for most places to do.  

This would be fantastic . . . if I could hit my par 3 tee shots with laser-like precision!   

[Sandy Smith]

Just don't be the guest at a nice place and not tip because your host says it's not allowed.
If you do it with class and discretion it's always accepted and appreciated.
If you try and do it in front of your host you're a cheap screw.

[Carl Johnson]

Just don't be the guest at a nice place and not tip because your host says it's not allowed.
If you do it with class and discretion it's always accepted and appreciated.
If you try and do it in front of your host you're a cheep screw.

I disagree, respectfully.  If it's not permitted, you shouldn't do it period. As an aside, a number of years ago my son, his father-in-law and I were unaccompanied guests at a no-tipping private club in the Chicago area -- no hosts present.  Father-in-law tried to tip his caddy anyway, but the tip was politely refused.

[Bob_Huntley]

Just don't be the guest at a nice place and not tip because your host says it's not allowed.
If you do it with class and discretion it's always accepted and appreciated.
If you try and do it in front of your host you're a cheap screw.

Sandy,

How classy is it to ignore your host's request? Do you expect another invite? I have been a member of several clubs that have a good medical program, contibute to 401.Ks  and make the job working at the Club a better deal than relying on tips.

[Sandy Smith]

All you no tippers can accept those rules.
I prefer not to and it's worked well for me. 

[Josh Bills]

I think one should respect the host's rules.  I always ask what amount is appropriate to tip a caddy so I don't over or under pay what my host normally does.  Being a big shot guest at the expense of your host is not good form. 

[SL_Solow]

Sandy;  Just because someone belongs to a no tipping club doesn't make him or her a "no tipper".  When invited to clubs which permit the practice (or when dining at a restaurant) I have no problem being appropriately generous.  I respect the rules of the institution where I am a guest, member or paying customer.  If its my place, I can make the rules.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Great topic and one that has left me rather confused on where I stand.
At first I thought that is easy, show me to the first tee, let e hit some balls and I am off.....
but then I think back to all those wonderful little extras that I also enjpy when I go to Diamante in December, he slider bar, the choice of what pristine range balls I want to hit, the superb comfort stations.....oh no have I become one of THOSE people, tell me that's not so!!!!!!
So I guess whilst I relish my chilaxed home club attitude, nobody bugging me to take my clubs out of the car, no drop area upon arrival, no freebies on the way round, I also enjoy stepping up into the rich man startosphere every now and then to enjoy the view.

[jeffwarne]

 Back to the thread title.  The coolest thing I've seen a private club do is have all par 3's lasered with the exact yardage to the pin on the scorecard.  Scorecards were printed every morning.  Obviously this prob isn't cost effective for most places to do.   

Yikes
That might be most misplaced bit of resources I've heard of

Friar's Head's beer tap in the original pro shop was a nice touch

[Patrick_Mucci]

My problem with tipping is members should be treated equally and big tippers will always be looked after better by staff, it's human nature.
You obviously didn't see "Caddyshack"

Pat I'm sure many courses on the "Perry route" have shepherds to keep the sheep going in the right direction.

As for paddle courts, tennis, paddling pools, etc where were they hiding at CPC, PV, National Golf Links, Shinnecock Hills or Chicago Golf Club?

Mark, glad YOU brought those clubs up.
All are "GOLF" clubs, NOT Country clubs.

Since you mentioned PV, you can't enter the club unless you're granted permission at the security gate.

Once admitted, you then have to proceed to the next check point where you're checked in with the staff, including the starter, caddy master and the folks who will take your clubs (for play or for storage).

NGLA, you have to register at the front desk, ditto SHCC, then take your script to the starter

CPC,  you must checking at the Pro Shop and then report to the starter, caddy master.

I can't comment on CGC because I haven't had the privilege of playing there yet.

Come to think of it I only recall a starter at one of them and security at another.

Then your powers of recall have diminished significantly

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

Not to sound like a curmudgeon, 'cause I'm not. But, in my view, sometimes it's what they don't do for you at a private club. Personally, I most often like to show up at my own pace. Take my own bag from the car. Not be hassled about a shoe-shine in the locker room. Tee off when I feel like it. To me, this is much more comfortable - and private club-like - than dealing with the kids who take your bag, then the guy in the proshop, then the starter, and so on.

Jeff,

Without those services or control points, at a busy club, chaos would reign.

You may want to tee off when you feel like it, but, so do others, and that's where the conflict begins and that's where a starter is required.

ie.  You and two out of the three of your playing partners arrive at 9:00am and want to play.
      Your 4th is late.

Another group arrives 3 minutes after you and they want to play.

Your 4th arrives 5 minutes after them.

You claim that you were here first and therefore have the tee.

Result: Dispute

A starter would solve all of that.

And, if you're a first time guest, do you want to wander around, aimlessly, or do you want the staff to guide you to the  appropriate areas ?

And, the fellow who works in the locker room, who relies on tips to supplement his income, why do you want to short change him ?

And, who's going to stop you if you're driving by and decide that you want to play that course.
Who's going to stop you from taking items from the lockers ?
Where's the quality control, security and safety factor if there are no check points ?

My experience with private clubs is that they're run pretty well and that those check points are a necessity.

Pat:  you think that maybe, perhaps, possibly, by some off-chance your experiences might have something to do with hyper New Yorker types, NO

both in NY and down in NY snowbird-transplantland?  

I can't imagine anybody in the world less calm than a New Yorker rushing to the tee...

How many "New Yorkers" do you know well ?
And how many have you played with ?

Having been a guest and having played many courses in California, Oregon, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Kansas, Colorado, Nebraska, North Carolina, Georgia, South Carolina, Kentucky, Oklahoma and a good number of other states, I think I have a pretty good feel for how clubs function.  

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