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Carl Nichols

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Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2010, 06:11:34 PM »
Talk's cheap!

Isn't that what you do at symposiums?   ;D

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2010, 08:14:59 PM »
Will SPCC become accessible to the public at a low price? ;D

It already is and has been for the 16 years I've lived in NC.  I don't think I've paid more than $30 to walk in the two times I've played it (once in '94 or '95 and another in '01 w/Golf's Most Beloved....was about $15 as guest of member).

Bill Gayne

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2010, 09:08:17 PM »
Carl,

The word "symposium" in ancient Greece and Rome was a convivial meeting, usually following a dinner, for drinking and intellectual conversation. The Irish would call it "craic."

Mike_Young

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2010, 06:23:11 AM »
I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....

Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1.  Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2.  Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3.  you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...

I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D

Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2010, 06:31:59 AM »
I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....

Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1.  Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2.  Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3.  you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...

I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D

Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike



Mike

While I agree with you in general, these sorts of things start with small steps and helpful volunteers.  Who knows, your Joe Blows could be on the agenda next year....if this symposium is well supported. 

I would like to go just to hear what the Sunny Super has to say.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mike_Young

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2010, 06:37:26 AM »
I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....

Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1.  Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2.  Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3.  you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...

I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D

Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike



Mike

While I agree with you in general, these sorts of things start with small steps and helpful volunteers.  Who knows, your Joe Blows could be on the agenda next year....if this symposium is well supported. 

I would like to go just to hear what the Sunny Super has to say.

Ciao

Sean,
I agree...I would listen to the European guys....in most cases....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2010, 07:09:09 AM »
Affordable golf? Sunningdale charges £265/$420 a day not sure that's classed as affordable.
Cave Nil Vino

Steve Kline

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2010, 07:43:57 AM »
Mark - I'm guessing that's for a guest. What does it cost for a member? What are the total of member fees and guest fees in a month, which will give a more accurate picture of if its affordable?

Carl Rogers

Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2010, 08:20:09 AM »
I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....

Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1.  Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2.  Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3.  you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...

I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D

Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike
These range of issues work from the top down and the bottom up all at the same time. 
I can agree with your statement sort of ....
Let's see what happens over the next 10 - 15 years and then evaluate.
One part of today's golf environment is that all of the non-golf people are getting out of golf.

Richard_Mandell

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2010, 02:27:20 PM »
Good to see that we have stoked some discussion about the Symposium.  Many of you who have commented about attending here have yet to sign up, so please go to the website and sign up.  The more people who sign up, the more cheap-ass golf guys may be motivated to show up.  Regarding the sunny guy (Stephen Richardson), his club may not be affordable to the average guy, but he is coming to speak about a subject that can help with the affordability issue. 

Mike - I agree with all you say, but I assure you that hype isn't what we are going to accomplish (i know you know that).  I can't tell you what will come out of this, but it is a first step.  The most important key to the success of this event is that the true cheap-ass golf guys do show up. I hope that we can finally have a convergence of industry people and regular golfers instead of the usual industry events preaching to the choir.

My very intention is to have those people who no one has ever heard of be a part of future Symposiums but we need to get the attention of people and sometimes name recognition is the best way to get there to start.  The speakers we have all are obviously on board with the goal even though they may work with organizations that say otherwise.  This is their chance to speak outside of their companies - and they will.

We have forty people already signed up (including 21 for golf).  Please spread the word.

Thanks.

Willie_Dow

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2010, 03:41:12 PM »
This has been a subject I have been concerned with for many years.

Having just cancelled my trip to Florida via Autotrain, I plan to drive down for this get together.

Thanks for bringing this message back on GCA !

Bill Dow

Mike_Young

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2010, 08:23:00 PM »
Good to see that we have stoked some discussion about the Symposium.  Many of you who have commented about attending here have yet to sign up, so please go to the website and sign up.  The more people who sign up, the more cheap-ass golf guys may be motivated to show up.  Regarding the sunny guy (Stephen Richardson), his club may not be affordable to the average guy, but he is coming to speak about a subject that can help with the affordability issue. 

Mike - I agree with all you say, but I assure you that hype isn't what we are going to accomplish (i know you know that).  I can't tell you what will come out of this, but it is a first step.  The most important key to the success of this event is that the true cheap-ass golf guys do show up. I hope that we can finally have a convergence of industry people and regular golfers instead of the usual industry events preaching to the choir.

My very intention is to have those people who no one has ever heard of be a part of future Symposiums but we need to get the attention of people and sometimes name recognition is the best way to get there to start.  The speakers we have all are obviously on board with the goal even though they may work with organizations that say otherwise.  This is their chance to speak outside of their companies - and they will.

We have forty people already signed up (including 21 for golf).  Please spread the word.

Thanks.

Rich,
I would come but we have the State Seniors in Waycross on those dates and I just can't miss such an event....have a great time and good luck with it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2010, 08:31:34 AM »
Richard,

Kudos for organizing such an event and let me know if you would like me to cover and publicize it via my Golf Course Industry column.

My only suggestion would be to make sure someone covers the costs of irrigation, which have risen from 25% of the typical budget to over 40% in some cases.  You can't cut the cost of golf courses without cutting the cost of irrigation.

Good luck! (I would attend but I have a client meeting on the left coast that day)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jud_T

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2010, 02:12:41 PM »
fyi-if time allows and you feel like picking up a few hickories while you're down:

http://www.golfcollectors.com/news.html
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2010, 02:54:02 PM »
fyi-if time allows and you feel like picking up a few hickories while you're down:

http://www.golfcollectors.com/news.html

edit - dbl post
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 03:06:45 PM by RSLivingston_III »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2010, 02:54:35 PM »
fyi-if time allows and you feel like picking up a few hickories while you're down:

http://www.golfcollectors.com/news.html

Jud, you beat me to it, was just going to mention it as I am in the process of trying to work out getting down for the GCS meet and thinking about sneaking out to visit the Symposium.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jud_T

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2010, 02:56:10 PM »
My buddy's also having a charity event at Forest Creek that weekend, so it's a triple threat, but unfortunately it just doesn't work this year....Have fun all...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Buie

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2010, 07:53:43 AM »
Well, I suppose some of the lads would like to hear a bit about the symposium.  I got to attend the afternoon session - and the libations afterward, of course.  Hats off to Richard Mandell and his gang.  It was well done all around.  The concepts discussed would not be unfamiliar to you but there really is a great deal of value in crystallizing the perspective - especially with the cast they assembled. 
The only difficult note for me was that it was perfect weather and the first fairway of SPGC was sort of glowing right outside of the conference window.  Hard for me to resist getting out there!  It was fortuitous that Ron Forse wanted someone to guide him around the rumbling little course.  Great guy and a privilege to hear his take on the old venerable. 
Everybody I met was a pleasure.  Would you expect anything different at a GCA gathering?

Richard Mandell, Jim Moriarty, Tim Moraghan and Jaime Diaz.


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2010, 08:15:30 AM »
Chris,
You fellows weren't keeping Jaime Diaz up, were you?  ;)
Thanks for the update.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2010, 09:13:17 PM »
Having just returned home from the trip to Pinehurst, for the Symposium on Affordable Golf, I felt compelled to offer thanks and some reflections on what transpired.

First, a profound thank you to Richard Mandell, Gary and the rest of the firm's fine staff, for really running an outstanding event. The speakers were a diverse, stimulating group, and some very enlightening exchanges were made with the attendees throughout the day. In the main, the conversation was frank, engaging and thought-provoking.

The golf day at Southern Pines was superb. I played with two attendees from Canada, Trevor and TJ, who couldn't have been better company, and a local, Dan ,who lived there, knew the track, and worked at Pinehurst. The operation there was a wonderful example of affordable golf's potential. It wasn't perfect, but it darn good AND memorable. Henry greeted me, as my foot hit the ground out of my truck, with a warm smile on his face to help me out. The pro and starter were friendly and efficient. The course was, mostly, a Donald Ross gem. A real highlight was "Granny Gracey." A seventy-something sweetheart of a gal at the snack-shack that can only be described as special. The refreshments were ice-cold and the hot dogs...perfect. But the scary part is when we returned three holes later for a second round of dogs, I turned the corner and after only ever having met me once she said, "Hi Kris, guess you'll be want'n another one of them dogs, with onions, ketup and mustard right?!" She was dead on!!!! It wasn't slow out there that day and a number of other groups had gone through after us. Where can you get that kind of experience...it was awesome.

Rich intends to make this an annual conference and the GCA tribe was solidly represented at this initial gathering. Ran weighed in, with his usual erudite manner and other GCA members had solid contributions as well. All understood that while this was a noble first step,
subsequent efforts are what will be needed to move the meter!

Some topics surfaced that seemed worth examining. It is ironic, some of this was touched on, in threads within this DG, the last couple of days.

1) The "brown is good" and "firm and fast" mantras are being heavily hyped. Is this actually the way forward for affordable, less-wasteful golf practices? Probably not, in many cases. Only certain soil profiles and climate conditions are conducive to this approach without significantly MORE time and resource commitment. A "one approach fits all "  regarding conditioning methods seems misguided and down-right irresponsible in some instances.  Yet this new gospel is certainly being put out there, often without qualifiers.

2) Maintanance costs are often seen as a major culprit and target for budget issues at facilities. Often, these bugets get cut and the core asset, the golf course presentation... suffers. Then the slide begins, as folks see what they really joined for deteriorate. This is the last area that should be cut, provided quality leadership and cost oversight is in place.
Several attendees, with extensive professional experiences running clubs, pointed to bloated management teams and excessive salaries, for marginal performance results, as a major area that can torpedo finances. They felt that proven ability, of understanding profit and loss, needed to be more of the criteria for selecting those running a facility. The ability to manage several responsibilites in a competent manner, forging a team approach, were highlighted, as a real way forward in the econmic reality of controlling costs in the future. 

3) The declining participation, numbers-wise, by those in and entering the game, was also a focalpoint. Significantly, the lack of true passion for the game and adjusting the teaching approach depending on the golfer, were cited by men AND women attendees, as a major obstacle to retaining and encouraging golfers. If the PGA professionals aren't warm, personable "people folks," and especially were the gals and children are concerned, the game's not going to get them. It was clear that the current "Iniative du jour"  to grow the game, being put out by the major administrative bodies of the game, is not getting it done.

4) Poor support of promoting caddie programs, where possible, by the major administrative bodies of golf, was also noted. It's also worth observing, that about a third of the attendees at the Symposium had caddied and found the game that way at some point in their lives. I don't believe it was a coincidence, that percentage number with caddie roots, were there to support the game.

This gathering, for me, was very rewarding on multiple levels. I spoke with fellow men and women golf industry professionals and ardent golfers. They came from as far away as British Columbia, Canada to North Berwick, Scotland. To a person, they were there because they cared enough, and were able to afford, or make the time, to come.

The game is in trouble. The reasons are varied. But clearly, the change will have to start from within the game's ranks, as much as from those in some of golf's leadership ranks. Unfortunately, many of those leaders are currently, intently focused on securing their own position and financial status. That mentality has sadly created much of the unsustainable structure currently in place. It must change. It won't be easy. There is much work to be done. This game has survived centuries of cultural change, World Wars and countless other challenges.

If you truly love the game, you know greed must not be allowed to destroy it. We can all have a say. To which degree we commit to doing something about it...well, that is up to each individual.

Cheers 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

JC Jones

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2010, 09:19:52 PM »
Kris,

Thanks for your write up.  I was truly disappointed to have been forced to cancel at the last minute (especially since it was only 90 mins away).  I am encouraged by the prospect of this becoming an annual event.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike_Young

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2010, 09:40:49 AM »
Kelly,
First I would want to commend Rich for initiating such an event.  It is a start.
Then, your first paragraph is dead on....
I also agree with you that I see plenty of places that are grinning on their way to  the bank....because they are now getting the customer from the "in trouble" places.  The free enterprise system had always had a great way of correcting itself and usually it would start with all of the courses being operated or built with a guy such as you describe in your first paragraph....he will get no invites to events by the large equipment companies....he will never have triple row irrigation and the supts at the big places with 3 assistants will never give him his due....but that is where the real affordable golf is headed....I want to see the day when the picture in the post above shows guys sitting on stage in golf shirts and boots...
BUT the problem might be that many of these guys aren't going to give away their secrets....and the problem for most of us is that most really affordable golf is not going to be using an architect....oh well ;)

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2010, 10:08:11 AM »
Kelly,

This was the INITIAL effort my friend! Rich is to be lauded for his efforts and vision. Have you ever heard of an event addressing the topic? I sure haven't. My observations and remarks were a brief overview as this participant saw the event.

I would encourage you and your cohort to attend the next Symposium, perhaps as panelists. You certainly could contribute richly to the potential solutions. Please reach out to Rich Mandell, as he has the complete list of who participated. The event panel was full of competent, professional folks. Several case studies, of successful, affordable golf operations were showcased... by the folks who HAVE successful, sustained, affordable golf projects.

We can all point to places that are surviving. If you feel that your little part of the world is doing just fine...beautiful. From what I see, hear, read and witness in the field everyday, and I talk and deal with a fair few in the golf business...there is a hell of a lot of financial pain out there right now. It's not going away soon. Many facilities are in trouble. You've not experienced any evidence of that?

As to greed, I'm not even going there. Our planet is in financial upheaval because of it. Golf, while a great exhibit A, is a very small and frankly, not that important part of the equation in the totality of the global situation. Since many on this site, including myself, have some life and/or professional connection to the sport, it has significance for us.

I'm generally a very positive, upbeat individual. What I see troubles me. It could be so much better. My approach is to try and listen, learn, and take the lessons gained in trying to make a quality contribution to an issue when possible.

Cheers 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2010, 10:25:35 AM »
Kris

This website has been addressing this topic for 10 years.
Many architects, like Rich, have been addressing this topic since they started.

The symposium should be a place for those to go to learn.
Using it as a tool to spread the gospel seems as fruitless as creating the Fedex cup to compete against football ratings. - Why fight the energy?

Golf is not in trouble.
A number of individual golf businesses are.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Join Ran Morrisett at the Affordable Golf Symposium!
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2010, 11:52:16 AM »
"Golf is in trouble."  "Golf is not in trouble."

Take another business, say auto industry.  What would they be saying if for example people were driving less, new cars were not being developed and built in the same numbers as in the past, and in general folks said they couldn't find the time to drive as much as they used to.  Furthermore the auto leaders said that they were going to build mostly luxury cars that cost $100,000.
If the above were true I think most folks would say the auto industry "is in trouble."

If there are more courses closing than being built, is this a correction or a trend?  Time will tell.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

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