[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I think the hole is substantially easier.

You and Mike are confusing Quality (the ability to force a bad decision is certainly a positive mark in terms of Quality) with difficulty. Losing that tree on #11 at HVCC allows a tremendous amount of shots onto the green that would have previously not reached it.

Difficulty is the result of scores on the hole, not the decisions you need to make. It's measurable.

I suppose, but I'm more concerned about the standard deviation as opposed to the statistical average. I'd agree the "average" may have dropped on the 11th at HVCC, but how has the breadth of scoring changed?

[D_Malley]

the removal of a tree/trees definitely can make a holes average score increase.
it can decieve the player into thinking that the risk reward option is more in their favor then is actually the case.


 

[Jim_Coleman]

    When I was practicing law, opponents would often make a passionate, well structured, articulate, stupid arguments.  I always assumed that the other lawyer actually worked himself up into believing his work.  And I would always wonder whether I was missing something, and whether the fact finder (judge or jury) would buy into the fllim flam.  You know what?  Those arguments always lost.  Always.  The argument that removing a tree that is in play (not a border tree that opens up an out of bounds) and changing nothing else can make a hole easier is such an argument.

[JESII]

Kyle,

The hole always had a wide spectrum, fo rit to widen more you would have to believe people are making 9's and 10's because this tree is gone...is that your argument?

For me specifically, the difference is that now I don't need to worry about the trajectory of my wedge or nine iron that's going into the left half of the green...easier! Explain to me how the hole is now more difficult for you, please...

[Dave Givnish]

The tree removal was done in two segments - one of trees on the course and then the trees surrounding the railroad tracks.  The "on the course" removal seems to have been well received by the members.  I heard that taking the trees away from the tracks caused a big uproar.  Has that settled down?  Does the lack of those trees, particularly on 9, have that much impact on play?

[Kyle Harris]

   When I was practicing law, opponents would often make a passionate, well structured, articulate, stupid arguments.  I always assumed that the other lawyer actually worked himself up into believing his work.  And I would always wonder whether I was missing something, and whether the fact finder (judge or jury) would buy into the fllim flam.  You know what?  Those arguments always lost.  Always.  The argument that removing a tree that is in play (not a border tree that opens up an out of bounds) and changing nothing else can make a hole easier is such an argument.

When does a tree cease to be a border tree and start being in play?

Isn't anything that can be struck by a poorly executed shot qualify as "in-play?"

Jim,

It sounds as though the tree for you was more yellow light than red light.

How many 10+ handicaps are now attempting that shot where the tree in question would have ultimately stopped them? That left side used to be a guaranteed punch out for all but the most battle tested (Chet Walsh hit one of the best shots I've seen from the left bunker to the left hole during the 2005 PA Amateur). Now, with the tree gone, there is a glimmer of hope and just enough to almost always attempt it and take on the trouble at the green.

[Bruce Katona]

I remember playing as a guest at PCC a few times....a great day...I missed a few approach shots pin high left or right of the green and had to attempt to run the ball thru a bunker onto the green....that certainly could not have been the original intent of Tilly (I don't think)...hopefully most of those ornamentals planted surrounding the geen sites have been removed or pruned up.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bruce,

Since you said, "I missed a few approach shots pin high left or right of the green and had to attempt to run the ball thru a bunker onto the green....that certainly could not have been the original intent of Tilly (I don't think)..."

I thought you might like to see what the course looked like and how many trees were there some 15 years after it originally opened for play.



Still think the same thing? 

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