[Jon Wiggett]

Kelly,

I have not said that there is no organic product for the control of clover as you state. The only way I know other than a herbicide is the use of a heat gun but there could be others I am unaware of. This is not feasible in my case due to area and man power. Also, I believe it would be probably worse for the environment when looking at the whole picture.

Alan,

Just north of Inverness, Scotland. Growing grass without chemicals is not the holy grail as you seem to think, there are plenty of examples of this but does depend on your situation as Steve has stated.

Steve L,

I try to keep my POV the same though it does change sometimes depending on my knowledge. One thing I do know is there are very few things that never change.

Jon

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Alan,
Just north of Inverness, Scotland. Growing grass without chemicals is not the holy grail as you seem to think, there are plenty of examples of this but does depend on your situation as Steve has stated.

Jon

that's what I figured and thats my point - I know growing grass without chemicals is not a holy grail but the location is, as you've proven. There are places where the weather is conducive to growing turf easily without chemicals but they are few and far between - hence my holy grail comment.

Being a public site it is wrong to make a statement stating it's easy while not mentioning the location as there are too many variables to consider especially for the casual reader. I've been fortunate to be a greenkeeper/superintendent on both sides of the Atlantic (and gone to turf schools on both sides also) and I can assure anyone that there is a huge difference in growing cool season turf in the British Isles and the Mid Atlantic region of the US - member/player expectations/requirements notwithstanding. It always amazes me when I go home at how 'simple' turf management is mainly due to the fact the climate is very favorable to turf growth and environmental/pest stresses are minimal. Given a summer like last year in the US anyone trying to get away without any chemicals would have (as Steve suggested) needed seed and sod to fix issues and as a matter of fact a number still needed it even after using chemicals.

As for there being products available to manage turf without chemicals - I've tried some and know people who use a lot and some do work but there inevitably comes a year (at least in the Mid Atlantic) where the turf will not withstand the stress on it and there will be turf loss. Simply put, if for example in the Mid Atlantic region someone was to try a 100% organic program there has to be the expectation that at some point they will lose turf.

I certainly don't want to sound like a proponent of using chemicals - I'm far from it - but there are times when they are necessary to provide the results required of you

[Jon Wiggett]

Alan,

this might come across a little stronger than I intend it to and if so I apologise in advance.

The problem with your last reply is that it is not based on what was said but rather based on statements altered/invented by you to suit your argument. I dislike it when someone deliberately misquotes to suit their POV. Where did I ever say it was 'easy'. Also Steve did not mention anything about the USA in his original post to which I replied.

I find it is a shame you should chose to use this type of argument as it cheapens what is a valid point of view.

Steve also goes on to mention that organic courses will use seed and sod but so do most courses using chemicals. I concur with him that if they buy this in then it will have probably been handled with chemicals at some stage so with sod the obvious thing is to home grow and maybe even the seed can be home produced (intensive but not impossible if needed on a small scale).


Jon

[Steve Okula]

Jon, yes, I am chasing you through the internet.

Your approach is no doubt servicable in some situations, say, members clubs without high expectations in cool climates. Have you worked anywhere else?

I question how well this approach would succeed, for example, in a warm-season resort area, with extreme insect and weed pressure, high customer expectations, and where you don't have time to explain your philosophy to a couple of hundred tourists every day, but you do have a general manager and marketing people breathing down your neck every minute to make it green and perfect and do it now because that's what the public expects.

Steve,


Hope the New Year has been kind to you so far. As to your questions, warm season grasses are not my forte so I could not say one way or the other there nor would I like to make any comments on climates with high humidity. It is possible to produce very high standard playing conditions without chemicals so the ‘members clubs without high expectations’ jibe is off the mark. I also know that it is possible to go practically chemical free in a warm but dry climate.

Explaining the maintenance philosophy does not have to entail talking to each golfer there are many ways to communicate though if you are poor at this then having the general manager and marketing people breathing down your neck every minute is almost a certainty.
If you have lots of players then you will need sufficient playing areas for it to work. I am not saying it is the always possible, only that it is possible.
Kelly,

I am just growing in my latest course at the moment (seeded last May) and have not used any chemicals to date including fertilisers. This is without an irrigation system. I suspect I will have to use a herbicide at some point if the clover gets out of hand though.

Jon

Jon,

A couple of points regarding golfers’ expectations.

You say you’re currently doing a grow-in that you seeded in May. I gather the course isn’t open yet, in which case it won’t be until at least May, meaning there wil be a year from seeding to opening. There’s nothing wrong with that, but a leisurely twelve months to do grow-in could not be defined as “high expectations”. I’ve grown in courses with high expectations that planted in May and were playing by September. (But then, I used fertilizer and I watered.)

Regarding communication, I don’t know how to communicate with hundreds of golfers, or even a handful of executives, so that they will lower their expectations. How do you do that? Some sort of mass hypnosis, maybe?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Thanks to all for this topic. I agree with Tom on most of his comments. I do applaud any steps that reduce chemical use.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Alan,

this might come across a little stronger than I intend it to and if so I apologise in advance.

The problem with your last reply is that it is not based on what was said but rather based on statements altered/invented by you to suit your argument. I dislike it when someone deliberately misquotes to suit their POV. Where did I ever say it was 'easy'. Also Steve did not mention anything about the USA in his original post to which I replied.

I find it is a shame you should chose to use this type of argument as it cheapens what is a valid point of view.

Steve also goes on to mention that organic courses will use seed and sod but so do most courses using chemicals. I concur with him that if they buy this in then it will have probably been handled with chemicals at some stage so with sod the obvious thing is to home grow and maybe even the seed can be home produced (intensive but not impossible if needed on a small scale).


Jon

Jon

Firstly my post was not an attack on you or anyone else and I'm not really sure if you read my post properly, secondly I take offense to "The problem with your last reply is that it is not based on what was said but rather based on statements altered/invented by you to suit your argument. I dislike it when someone deliberately misquotes to suit their POV." and that "you should chose to use this type of argument as it cheapens what is a valid point of view" as that was not my point or intention, so since you figured it was going to come across stronger than intended maybe you should have waited to post the tamer version;)

I apologize for saying it's 'easy' as it was the incorrect word (am I really going to fight about semantics?) although you do insinuate it from the experiences that you mention and statements like "It is possible to produce very high standard playing conditions without chemicals so the ‘members clubs without high expectations’ jibe is off the mark." don't help by being a very factual comment but without a disclaimer that it doesn't work everywhere. I'm not arguing that it can't be done, it's just that it's a lot easier in some areas than it is in others, which needs tot be stated.

Since this thread was resurrected on Dec29th you have argued that from your personal experience that "True Organic programs will suffer turf loss and the remedy will be to sod or seed the affected areas." is not correct (post 186) and that "I have worked on a few courses in several countries and in this time I have never had to use either an insecticide or fungicide. In non of the cases have I had to use much sod or seed." My initial point was to refute that in saying that while not in your experience do organic programs possibly require more seed/sod to repair damage, that, that is not necessarily the case especially when location is factored in. I am not arguing with your experiences or your subsequent posts however the line "I am just growing in my latest course at the moment (seeded last May) and have not used any chemicals to date including fertilisers. This is without an irrigation system. I suspect I will have to use a herbicide at some point if the clover gets out of hand though" sticking out out at the end of the post certainly gives the impression that it's possible to go almost 100% organic anywhere since the location is not mentioned, which we know is not possible and that was my point. Unfortunately I -wrongly- substituted 'easy' to say that and gave you the wrong idea of what I was saying.

Also fwiw I know Steve C and since he's US based so I used the example of over here and, specifically where I'm currently based, but to also to add to Steve Os comment that it's not just warm season turf but cool season turf being managed in the transition zone where the climate is not always optimal for cool season turf. Again I'm a huge fan of organic turf maintenance however right now there is still the need for chemical usage to provide the conditions required of usand until there's a fundamental change in golfers expectations that will not change.

Alan

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