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Tom MacWood

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Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #450 on: July 12, 2010, 09:01:49 PM »
David
I did consider Balboa Park, Recreation Park and Montebello Park. The golf course guides from the early 30s claimed Balboa Park still had sand greens, I don't know when that changed. Also the yardage was listed as less the 6000 yards, which is sort of my unofficial cut off. I'm still considering the other two.

I did not consider the private courses gone public just for clarity's sake. The transition from private to public was not always clear cut. Also I did not want open to the flood gates for resort courses. I wanted to avoid the pure public courses being dominated by the private and resort courses, which is what would have happened. There are exceptions to the private/public transition, I will consider those courses that began as private projects but opened as daily fee courses for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 09:03:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #451 on: July 12, 2010, 09:06:41 PM »
[
At least Tom MacWood realized he reached his Waterloo with his ridiculous and now disproven claims that the course wasn't extremely well-regarded back them and wisely knew enough to keep silent, but that didn't stop David from his usual verbal diarrhea, self-appointed expert posturing, and nonsensical blathering at the mouth, sandwiched between his now habitual Turrets like string of childlike personal insults that lack both humor and insight..


Huh? I believe that CC was in the middle of the pack of the course I've listed. Do you think everyone of these courses is worthy of restoration?

TEPaul

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #452 on: July 12, 2010, 09:21:19 PM »
"So, in the immortal words of Paul Harvey, now you know the rest of the story
Good day..."


Mike:

Rather than Paul Harvey's immortal closing words, it might be more appropriate for this particular thread to cite the immortal closing words of Edward R. Murrow...."Good Night, and Good Luck" or perhaps better yet, the immortal closing words of Walter Cronkite...."And that's the way it is."


 ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #453 on: July 12, 2010, 09:25:23 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:48:56 PM by MCirba »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #454 on: July 12, 2010, 09:34:17 PM »
nichts mehr gesagt werden muss

Tom MacWood

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Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #455 on: July 12, 2010, 10:46:58 PM »
Sleep tight don't let the bed bugs bite.

DMoriarty

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Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #456 on: July 12, 2010, 11:37:54 PM »
Dan,   

Unfortunately, Mike apparently isn't quite ready to let go.  I think my last few posts must have touched a nerve.  Rather than address anything in them, I guess he figured he'd take his mentor's approach and just throw insults.  I wonder why Mike goes into near hysterics whenever someone actually addresses the substance of the issues at hand?

And Dan, I don't view challenging Mike's 1930 deadline as negative.   We could all learn something by exploring it further.   Mike claimed his reason for changing the date was because he did not wish to include the new deal courses.   So a simple question is, why cut off courses opened before the New Deal got going?   Another simple question is, why not simply exclude New Deal courses and include others that came into being independent of the New Deal programs.  Another simple question is, which of the courses on Tom's list was a WPA or "New Deal" project?   You and Mike could copy a list of New Deal courses while you are at the Golf House, and that would give us a good place to start.   

I am fascinated that no one is interested in hearing more about Cobbs Creek vs. Pine Valley, but I suppose Mike already knows all about it, and would rather it not come up.   Sounds familiar.

If Mike ever calms down,  I'd love to let Mike's portion of the conversation drift away.  I said from the beginning that he neither capable of nor interested in discussing the early public courses rationally, and he proves me right in almost every post.

____________________________________________________

Tom MacWood,   I thought I read recently that Balboa was redone by Billy Bell in the early 1920s with grass greens, etc. but I could be mistaken.   I know it has always been a fairly short course, but then so has Cobbs.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #457 on: July 13, 2010, 06:04:27 AM »
David
I've read the same reports about Bell and Balboa. I'm thinking either he didn't convert the greens or his involvement came later.

You asked yesterday about the attribution at Griffith Park. I took the description George Thomas gave of the process in his book. He took a few holes and green sites from the original course (which I believe was opened in 1915) to make a new 36 holes. Its a little misleading to give Bendelow as much credit as I have because his course was altered so much, but I thought he did at least deserve mention.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 06:10:13 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #458 on: July 13, 2010, 06:12:56 AM »
I've added Lawsonia, and it has to be one of the top courses on this list. Lawsonia began as an exclusive real estate development and private club in 1927, but by the time the course was formally opened in May 1930 that plan was out the window. It was a daily fee golf course and remained so at least through the early 50s.  

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 06:24:10 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #459 on: July 13, 2010, 07:10:30 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:02:06 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru 1936
« Reply #460 on: July 13, 2010, 07:43:03 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:02:23 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ,
« Reply #461 on: July 13, 2010, 11:51:39 AM »
Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba.  When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread.  It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ,
« Reply #462 on: July 13, 2010, 12:00:03 PM »
Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba.  When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread.  It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.

Which board game involves a ball?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike Cirba

Re: ,
« Reply #463 on: July 13, 2010, 12:05:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:49:29 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ,
« Reply #464 on: July 13, 2010, 12:15:51 PM »
Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba.  When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread.  It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.

Which board game involves a ball?

. . . kicking over the gameboard OR trying to take his ball and go home.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #465 on: July 13, 2010, 12:21:56 PM »

I can point to Rackham as an example.  Yes, it hosted a Publinx, but I would be wholly surprsied if it was considered a top 7 course in Metro Detroit in 1930 and there weren't 7 really good courses in Detroit in 1930.  

Ciao  

I'm not sure what the number of good golf courses in Detroit has to do with the list considering there is only one course from Detroit on the list, but I would dispute your comment about the number of quality courses in Detroit in 1930: CC of Detroit, Indianwood, Detroit GC N&S, Oakland Hills N&S, Franklin Hills, Plum Hollow, Aviation, and Colony. That is ten and I think there may have been a few more.

Orchard Lake CC as well

Tom MacWood

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Re: ,
« Reply #466 on: July 13, 2010, 12:24:18 PM »
Mike
The thread had been dead for two days when I posted my list so I don't see how I killed it. If you had a problem at the time you should have said something, I would have gladly started a new thread....like the one you started (1895-1930) in order to revise your original claim.

David
I don't have a problem with Mike changing the title of the tread or erasing some of his posts. There aren't too many threads without titles. I think it brings greater attention to what is IMO an interesting thread, and also shows who is willing to stand by their convictions and who is not. People are used to that kind of response from the city of brotherly love.

Mike Cirba

Re: ,
« Reply #467 on: July 13, 2010, 12:42:24 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:02:49 PM by MCirba »

John Moore II

Re: ,
« Reply #468 on: July 13, 2010, 02:25:04 PM »
I've added Lawsonia, and it has to be one of the top courses on this list. Lawsonia began as an exclusive real estate development and private club in 1927, but by the time the course was formally opened in May 1930 that plan was out the window. It was a daily fee golf course and remained so at least through the early 50s.  

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford


Given this list, do you suppose it would be possible to list where these courses are, if they still exist or if they are still public at this time? You know, for those of us who might want to play them and are not sure where they are.
Thanks.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ,
« Reply #469 on: July 13, 2010, 02:48:01 PM »
John
Yes, it may take me a little time, but I will add all the locations.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ,
« Reply #470 on: July 13, 2010, 02:51:31 PM »
Tom,

If you and David want to share this room together privately, I guess that doesn't really concern me.

After all, you might as well continue to work in tandem to derail anything you don't agree with, and why should you start respecting the wishes, requests, and opinions of others now?

I also have to say that you two are a perfectly matched pair and sort of a cute couple the way you finish each other's sentences.

Just clean up after yourselves and turn the lights off once you've both finished.

Mike
It doesn't bother me one way or the other if anyone participates or not, basically I'm sharing what I've found and if anyone wants to comment that's fine, but either way I will continue to share my findings.

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #471 on: July 13, 2010, 03:11:18 PM »
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John Moore II

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #472 on: July 13, 2010, 04:08:19 PM »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ,
« Reply #473 on: July 13, 2010, 05:10:35 PM »
To save me the agony of going through the 13+ previous pages  :P , does anyone know if Sonoma Golf Club (1928-Sam Whiting) should be on this list?

According to their website, "It was Sam Whiting who took the former J. K. Bigelow ranch and fashioned an 18-hole jewel that was first named the Sonoma Mission Inn Golf and Country Club to capitalize on the historic lore and romance of the Sonoma Valley and to serve as a prestigious amenity for the popular resort."

So it was somewhat open to the public but perhaps the resort affiliation keeps it off this thread's list.

It's a lovely place:  http://www.sonomagolfclub.com/pages/home.html

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ,
« Reply #474 on: July 13, 2010, 05:44:18 PM »
That is what is nice about Tom updating the list as we go along.  Anyone can skip the 13 pages and still get the information.   I wish I had thought of that.   

I think for now the list excludes resort courses.  But there are a few privately owned pay-as-you-play courses and I assume there is a blurry area somewhere between the two.   This sounds like a resort course, though.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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