Michael Taylor

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #250 on: February 08, 2010, 10:49:10 am »
17 looks like a wonderful hole. I absolutely love that drop off the the left hand side.

I can't wait to see the 18th.

Pup

Big Pete

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #251 on: February 08, 2010, 12:58:59 pm »
Brian
I am a lot biased , but I think the 17th is a really really good finishing hole
Yes , if you play it into a very strong wind the tee shot is difficult , however a lot of different teeing grounds were built , so that there is an appropriate tee for all conditions - I think there were 11 originally built but we lost one to erosion...
I am a short hitter and my very best drives only get out around 220 metres , yet I can play off the back tees in mild conditions .
And I am always looking for an angle to make things interesting for participants in the charity event I run - the tees you play off are dictated by your handicap -and I try to set up the course different each day -  so I was considering placing the back markers off the high 16th tee to play 17 if the conditions were benign . You should have heard the carry on from the low markers!
So I went up to the 16th tee , hit the fairway with a foot to spare , 3 wood to the front edge , chip and putt = par
However we did have some wind the next day and I never used it
Having said that most golf on this hole is from the terra cotta and blue tees  . The normal punter  on these tees has decisions to make about flying the bunkers right , going safe out left and leaving a longer shot in , or trying to hug the right bunker and stay central .
It is always an interesting shot.
And I love that very natural dynamic green with so many pin positions of interest
Last year my partner and I managed to make the semi final of the abovementioned pairs tournament , and we came to the 17th tied and with 30 spectators watching the fun
I had the pin in the bowl on the right , and my approach somehow scurried up the slope behind the pin and stopped precariously on the edge of the back tier
There was no way I could get such a crucial putt to stop near the pin , so after some creative decision making  , amused the crowd by facing almost entirely away from the flag and hitting away and slightly sideways so that the ball slowly crept around and down the bowl near the pin .You just are not asked these sort of questions at most courses!

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #252 on: February 08, 2010, 01:23:15 pm »


Peter,

I agree it's a really good finishing hole.  I guess more than anything that I was lamenting my own failure to be able to cope with it from the back tees in difficult wind conditions.  In the conditions and playing the tips, I should have accepted that bogey would be a decent score.  My only complaint, and it's not a criticism of the hole, is that I didn't have a reliable shot that I could count on to get off the tee.  There was no safe play to bail out and accept bogey.  After a lost ball to the right, I was able to triple bogey it.  When I played it a second time from the next up tee, I was able to keep it in play primarily because I was 70 yards closer to the fairway and make a routine bogey.

In fairness, when the fella in the shop sent me out, he inquired about my handicap and suggested I could play the back tees, but also suggested playing the upwind holes from the Boobyalla tees, one up from the tips.  Foolishly I kept to the back tees and was reasonably successful until the 17th.  I did notice that even the professional scores at the Moonah Classic ballooned seriously when they played in 30 mph winds on Friday and Saturday, I think it was.  So, that gave me some comfort about my own failings in the wind. 

But, no complaint about the hole really.  It is a good testing finishing hole in either stroke or match play.  I'd hate to be standing on that back tee in the wind with a match on the line, though.



Kalen Braley

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #253 on: February 08, 2010, 08:36:39 pm »
Bryan:

As I mentioned before, the decision to go west off the first tee was mostly to keep from playing eight straight holes into the wind in the middle of the round.

When you have a clubhouse in the middle of an east-west oriented golf course with returning nines, you are screwed one way or the other ... either you play into the sun off the first tee, or up the 18th.  I don't like either, but I don't really have a preference between them.

Tom,

Interesting comment as to the prevailing winds.  When I played Jack Nicklaus's Painted Valley in Park City this was exactly the case.  After playing the 1st 5 holes downwind and downhill with the prevailing wind, you play 8 straight holes (6-13) into the wind, 6 of which play uphill, and its an absolute ball-buster.  To boot it didn't help that the winds were stronger than normal that day.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #254 on: February 08, 2010, 11:21:20 pm »


Bryan:

As I mentioned before, the decision to go west off the first tee was mostly to keep from playing eight straight holes into the wind in the middle of the round.

When you have a clubhouse in the middle of an east-west oriented golf course with returning nines, you are screwed one way or the other ... either you play into the sun off the first tee, or up the 18th.  I don't like either, but I don't really have a preference between them.


Yes, I remember now that you'd mentioned the 8 hole stretch into the wind if the course was routed the other way.  I agree that would be worse than playing into the sun coming home.  As an afternoon golfer I prefer to have the closing holes not going west, but sometimes on a particular site it is unavoidable.

It does remind me of two other windy courses, Nairn and Castle Stuart.  Nairn, as you know goes out against the prevailing wind.  In the two times I've played there, the wind has destroyed my round by the time I'm 9 holes in.  But unavoidable there because the clubhouse is at the downwind end of the property. Castle Stuart has the clubhouse in the middle and the course was routed similar to Barnbougle, starting out for a few holes into the wind and coming home into the wind.  Also coming home into the setting sun.  The wind trumps the setting sun.

 


Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #255 on: February 09, 2010, 01:01:38 am »
Bryan:

Some guys PREFER the 18th to play into the setting sun, because it will look good for TV cameras looking backward from the 18th green.  Pete Dye told me this is the reason that the 18th at TPC at Sawgrass plays to the west.  It's also true of Pebble Beach, though of course they didn't have TV when they built Pebble Beach.

This was not a consideration for me at Barnbougle ... they aren't likely to play a big event there.  But I would not be surprised if Mark Parsinen wanted it that way at Castle Stuart for that reason.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #256 on: February 09, 2010, 12:15:34 pm »


The journey of discovery and delights is almost over as we head to:

Hole #18 403 meters (443 yards)

The last hole is, following #17, another challenging long par 4 into the prevailing wind. The claustrophobic tee shot of #17 is left behind in favour of the wide open expanses of the 18th fairway.  The fairway is a generous 65 yards wide although it does drop off to the left and is hemmed in on the right by the grass covered dunes. 

An interesting feature of the tees is that they branch off of either side of the central pathway providing a variety of not only distances, but also of angles to the fairway.





Perhaps not obvious from the pictures is a gully that crosses the fairway around 150 to 200 yards off the tee.  To get to the top of that ridge into the prevailing wind requires a carry of maybe 220 yards - a fairly hefty carry against the wind for most mere mortals.  If the tee is on the left side of the path the shot more directly down the fairway with a bit of a bend to the right.  If the tee is right of the path (as it is in the picture below) then the angle of attack to the fairway is more acute.

There is a bit of a trough on the right side of the fairway to reward the adventurers who want to flirt with the marram covered dunes to achieve a more direct and shorter line to the green.  Any draw is likely to be pushed by the wind across the fairway ridge back towards the tee and down the embankment to the left. 

Under less windy conditions the drive would be more straight forward leaving the challenge of the hole to the green.
 




If the ridge is not cleared on the drive, then getting home in two is not likely possible against the wind.  The shot is also blind with no artifacts to indicate line.

The fairway has two ridges angling across it. These can impact shots that come up short or very short of the green, providing awkward lies.

The green is composed of three lobes with bowls, troughs and ridges.  Approaching different pin positions from the fairway might suggest different ways to get close.  Can you bounce it off the ridge to get it close to a front left pin position; or, run it up the front embankment to a middle pin; or, fly the green and let it feed to the back right.

This is another green with many entertaining putts if you're not in the same section as the pin.  My wife was left giggling when she pulled her putt from the front of the green to the pin position in the picture, ten feet too far left and 20 feet too far only to watch it circle a bowl and bank off the back of the green and come from behind the hole to within a foot.  I didn't see that line.   ;D   What a way to finish.





The game is done.  The measure of a good course?  The desire to walk to the first tee to try it all over again.  After flying 26 hours half way round the world there is always the possibility of a serious let down when you get to one of the courses that are so beloved on here.  It happened to me when I played Pebble some years ago - large expectations and then a big let down.  It didn't happen here at Barnbougle Dunes.

Hopefully, some time, we can return, he says wistfully.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #257 on: February 09, 2010, 12:23:18 pm »


Somewhat off topic, but there are many other beautiful places in Tasmania besides BD.  Here are three pictures that I liked.  If you like hiking the National Parks are wonderful.












Big Pete

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #258 on: February 09, 2010, 02:39:51 pm »
18 is a strong finishing hole
I particularly like the approach shot with the beach on the right and a green with some very entertaining pin spots
For me it is often a long shot in , but the line of approach and indeed the type of shot attempted varies with the pin

In the early days the entire right side of the fairway was a thin strip of marram grass then a sandy beach which was in play - it was fun to find your wide ball on the beach and attempt the heroic shot back to the green

These days the beach has almost entirely grown over with marram

One point of contention for me is the tee shot
I have shared many a red with Clayts on this issue and agree to disagree

From the back tees the hole is almost straightaway , and partially blind - but it is wide , directly into the prevailing wind , and you can see where you are meant to go - no problem there!

Most golfers however play off the terracotta or blue tees which are shorter but 50 metres right of the back tees
When originally shaped you could see a sliver of fairway from these tees - enough to give you a sighter , and also see the top of the flag to show your ultimate destination
However heavy weather at grow in stage moved enough sand so that with the consequential growth of marram on top of the sand the high point on the corner was high enough to block out any sight of the fairway landing area over the hill or indeed the flag
So these forward tees have an almost totally blind tee shot at an angle to the fairway with no sighters , prevailing wind into and across , and marram both left and right blind .

Depending on conditions it can be quite a difficult shot to hit the fairway even for those who know where they are going - for Joe Public it means lost ball too often in my view .
I reckon it is the weakest tee shot on the course from the terra cotta , and detracts from a very good hole in other respects

I have no issue with blind tee shots as such and acknowledge that many of the great courses like County Down have more than their share - but not too many would play diagonally blind across the wind and fairway with death both sides if you miss...
I am not alone in this view - I have hosted many with golfing or design credentials around Barnbougle , and it is often a hot topic after the round .
But what a lovely finish with a challenging approach and a fun green

Brian
Is the 19th hole next?

Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #259 on: February 09, 2010, 04:41:14 pm »
I found the tee-shot from the tips on 17 to be incredibly intimidating.  I'm not a long bomber, but I'd say I hit it longer than your average player, but I am absolutely no chance of reaching the fairway from the tips into a strong prevailing wind.  I guess I should just play from the forward tees, but apart from that - love the hole.

Regarding the ridge on 18, these pics show the severity.





Here is a pic from the tee



and a couple of pics from behind the green





Trent Dixon

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #260 on: February 09, 2010, 04:45:23 pm »
This occurred to me the first time I played Barnbougle, hopefully Tom or Mike can answer it. Did it ever come into consideration to make 18 a par five and site the green in the natural amphitheatre beneath the massive dune beyond the club house towards the beach. From a distance it just looked to me like an amazing site for a green.

18 is a strong finishing hole
I particularly like the approach shot with the beach on the right and a green with some very entertaining pin spots
For me it is often a long shot in , but the line of approach and indeed the type of shot attempted varies with the pin

In the early days the entire right side of the fairway was a thin strip of marram grass then a sandy beach which was in play - it was fun to find your wide ball on the beach and attempt the heroic shot back to the green

These days the beach has almost entirely grown over with marram

One point of contention for me is the tee shot
I have shared many a red with Clayts on this issue and agree to disagree

From the back tees the hole is almost straightaway , and partially blind - but it is wide , directly into the prevailing wind , and you can see where you are meant to go - no problem there!

Most golfers however play off the terracotta or blue tees which are shorter but 50 metres right of the back tees
When originally shaped you could see a sliver of fairway from these tees - enough to give you a sighter , and also see the top of the flag to show your ultimate destination
However heavy weather at grow in stage moved enough sand so that with the consequential growth of marram on top of the sand the high point on the corner was high enough to block out any sight of the fairway landing area over the hill or indeed the flag
So these forward tees have an almost totally blind tee shot at an angle to the fairway with no sighters , prevailing wind into and across , and marram both left and right blind .

Depending on conditions it can be quite a difficult shot to hit the fairway even for those who know where they are going - for Joe Public it means lost ball too often in my view .
I reckon it is the weakest tee shot on the course from the terra cotta , and detracts from a very good hole in other respects

I have no issue with blind tee shots as such and acknowledge that many of the great courses like County Down have more than their share - but not too many would play diagonally blind across the wind and fairway with death both sides if you miss...
I am not alone in this view - I have hosted many with golfing or design credentials around Barnbougle , and it is often a hot topic after the round .
But what a lovely finish with a challenging approach and a fun green

Brian
Is the 19th hole next?

Peter, from memory the 18th fairway is very wide, and hitting at it from that angle would only serve make it play even wider. Although it is somewhat across and into the prevailing winds, they are off the right which would help straighten out the slices of the majority of golfers who'd choose to play from the forward tees. It is a very strong finish from the back, last time I was there I hit a solid drive that only barely flew the crest of the hill and still had a 2 iron into the green.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #261 on: February 09, 2010, 07:45:22 pm »
Trent:

I did consider at one time putting the green for a par-3 in the bowl at the end of the beach which you describe.

However, I never considered playing a longer hole to there ... everything in front of the bowl was BEACH when we were building the course.  Indeed, all of the 18th fairway was a raw dune of beach sand which had blown up fairly recently.  It took a fair amount of manure to enable us to grow grass there.  The entire time we were building the hole, I was secretly afraid we would not be able to stabilize it; I kept thinking of Tom Mead or Dave Wilber shaking their heads at the idea of it.  But that was the first hole we planted, and when it started to knit in, I knew we would be home free.

The last time I played the hole (five years ago now) I hit my driver onto the beach and a 4-iron onto the green from there.  Sorry to hear that is not likely to be possible anymore.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #262 on: February 09, 2010, 09:49:12 pm »

Andrew,

Thanks for the additional pictures.  The second and fifth ones seem to have errors in them and will only partially load.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #263 on: February 09, 2010, 10:14:50 pm »
18 is a strong finishing hole
I particularly like the approach shot with the beach on the right and a green with some very entertaining pin spots
For me it is often a long shot in , but the line of approach and indeed the type of shot attempted varies with the pin

In the early days the entire right side of the fairway was a thin strip of marram grass then a sandy beach which was in play - it was fun to find your wide ball on the beach and attempt the heroic shot back to the green

These days the beach has almost entirely grown over with marram

One point of contention for me is the tee shot
I have shared many a red with Clayts on this issue and agree to disagree

From the back tees the hole is almost straightaway , and partially blind - but it is wide , directly into the prevailing wind , and you can see where you are meant to go - no problem there!

Most golfers however play off the terracotta or blue tees which are shorter but 50 metres right of the back tees
When originally shaped you could see a sliver of fairway from these tees - enough to give you a sighter , and also see the top of the flag to show your ultimate destination
However heavy weather at grow in stage moved enough sand so that with the consequential growth of marram on top of the sand the high point on the corner was high enough to block out any sight of the fairway landing area over the hill or indeed the flag
So these forward tees have an almost totally blind tee shot at an angle to the fairway with no sighters , prevailing wind into and across , and marram both left and right blind .

Depending on conditions it can be quite a difficult shot to hit the fairway even for those who know where they are going - for Joe Public it means lost ball too often in my view .
I reckon it is the weakest tee shot on the course from the terra cotta , and detracts from a very good hole in other respects

I have no issue with blind tee shots as such and acknowledge that many of the great courses like County Down have more than their share - but not too many would play diagonally blind across the wind and fairway with death both sides if you miss...
I am not alone in this view - I have hosted many with golfing or design credentials around Barnbougle , and it is often a hot topic after the round .
But what a lovely finish with a challenging approach and a fun green

Brian
Is the 19th hole next?

With the current configuration of grass on the right, it's hard to imagine only a thin strip of Marram grass there.  I guess the aerial view was taken long enough ago that the thin strip can be seen at least towards the tee.

I'm not sure I get your debate with Clayts about the drive though.  I only played it twice, the first time from the back left tee and the second from the forward terra cotta right tee hard up against the dune.  Andrew's picture, below, reflects what I remember of the back tee, and what you said about it - straight on and partially blind.  The marram to be carried off the tee looks intimidating.  The view from the terra cotta tees in my picture doesn't look anything like what you describe as the view.  The fairway was clearly visible and the cottages can be used for alignment.  Is there another terra cotta tee that I'm missing?  So, I didn't view the drive from either tee as weak. 

The forward tee caused me just as much grief since my natural shot is a draw and the slightly crossing wind and ridges directed my ball across the fairway and down into the scrub.  A better shot than Mr. Doak's onto the beach, I would have thought, but then he could reach the green and I couldn't.  Maybe the beach should be restored so that we could try the beach strategy for the hole. 

Anyway, I had no issue with the forward tee I played.








By 19th hole, if you mean the watering hole, I'll meet you there next time I come (I hope). 







.....................................................



Ooops, sorry, wrong course.    ;D



David_Elvins

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #264 on: February 10, 2010, 02:34:15 am »
Tom D, Clayts,

Was it ever considered to put the 18th tee left of the 17th green close to the beach? 

THe 18th tee shot as it exists is possibly one of the worst on the course and a diagonal carry from close to the beach could have had potential, both strategically and visually. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #265 on: February 10, 2010, 02:38:51 am »
David:

Are left and right backwards down there?  I assume you mean to the right.

We did build a tee on the right, very near the top of the bluff down to the beach.  It was constantly being buried by sand drifts from the beach during grow-in, and I'm not sure if it survived or not, but I assumed that was the tee which Peter Wood was talking about.

Shane Gurnett

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #266 on: February 10, 2010, 02:44:05 am »
Tom, what were the main differences in the co-design process of Barbougle with Clayton, compared to Sebonack with Nicklaus?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #267 on: February 10, 2010, 02:55:01 am »
Shane:

I've described the process earlier in this thread (on page 3 or 4).

The main difference between the process at Barnbougle Dunes (or at Old Macdonald, or any other course I've worked on) vs. Sebonack, is that on all the others, I've had the final say on what gets built.  At Barnbougle, Michael was welcome to contribute as many ideas as he wanted to, and he contributed quite a few; but if he didn't convince me of his line of thinking, we stuck with my idea and there were no hard feelings.  [Honestly, though, I can't remember a hole where we really disagreed ... Michael and I had been friends for 3-4 years prior to construction, and we were pretty much on the same page philosophically.]

At Sebonack, if Jack and I couldn't agree on a hole, we had agreed to keep changing the hole in question until we were both happy with it.  It was either that, or let Michael Pascucci choose between our ideas, which would have put Michael in a very difficult spot.  But neither Jack nor I would give up control to the other, and Michael had set up the contracts so that neither of us had the final say.  I doubt I would work under those terms again ... even when we were getting along great, there was always the concern that tension was just around the corner.

David_Elvins

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #268 on: February 10, 2010, 03:13:20 am »
David:

Are left and right backwards down there?  I assume you mean to the right.
Left, looking from the clubhouse.  Is that not how you decribe things in America?  ;)
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Eric Smith

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #269 on: February 11, 2010, 09:39:16 am »
The Barnbougle Dunes website has some new aerials posted in their blog, taken by golf photographer Gary Lisbon.

http://www.barnbougledunes.com.au/blog/?attachment_id=154






Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #270 on: February 14, 2010, 01:05:57 pm »
I am lucky enough to be a regular visitor to Barnbougle, and have played in most conditions off most tees, I agree with Peter's comments in regard to the 18th tee - if you are able to achieve the length due to either your golf or the breeze, it plays and sets up much better.
I also experienced it as did Tom in the early days when the Beach was "in play", and I cannot think of a more thrilling shot for those tradiotnally minded to play the ball as it lies off the beach sand up and back onto the fairway, or even have a crack at the green.
It would be great to see the re-implementation of the beach in removing some of the Marrum, but assume that would be a massive task.

Peter
What would be required for you to be able to move pin positions more regularly for those that stay more than 1 night?
With such awesome greens and so many fun and interesting pin postions, it is the only thing I can ever fault.

The green keepers spend time on the course filling divots, perhaps you could supply sand buckets and then spend that saved time moving pins.... :)
@theflatsticker
Hundred Hole Hike Downunder...for Acquired Brain Injury
http://hundredholehike.com/cause/karingal/2514

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #271 on: February 14, 2010, 08:37:22 pm »
Brett:

Not moving cups so often is not a question of saving labor ... it's that the fescue greens don't heal over an old cup as quickly, so if there is not a lot of daily traffic to wear out the area around the hole, it's better for the grass to leave the cup where it is for a second day.

That said, it would be a shame to spend 2-3 days there and see the same hole locations throughout.  Perhaps they should go to the old system of keeping TWO holes on each green, and just alternating back and forth between them.

Jud_T

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #272 on: February 15, 2010, 03:09:32 am »
Is this going to be the case at Old Mac as well?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Duncan Betts

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #273 on: February 15, 2010, 06:46:15 am »
Tom,

Ideally, the nominated day for changing the hole location would be Sunday as most people are often there for a weekend and get the same hole locations both days.

I've been down 3 or 4 times now for a toal of 9 days, and only seen 3 pins on each green in total!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #274 on: February 15, 2010, 06:56:40 pm »
Is this going to be the case at Old Mac as well?

Jud:

Unlikely.  Partly because an American management company would never do something like that, but mostly because Old Macdonald will do 200 rounds a day, which causes a lot more wear around the hole.

I think in the winter months the hole locations in Bandon are changed less frequently, only every 2-3 days depending on traffic.

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