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Mike Hendren

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Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« on: July 12, 2018, 11:02:14 AM »
If playing word association with each of these three golf architects, my first answer might be "extreme."  Closely followed by "fun."  "Great" would be farther down the list. 

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned Engh's work in ages and that Strantz's accolades are generally limited to MPCC's Shore Course.  Yet Collins' work at Sweenten's Cove is the current darling here and ranked 50th among modern courses by Golfweek's cognoscenti.   Why?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kalen Braley

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2018, 11:46:02 AM »
Mike,


Great thread topic, as the work from all 3 of these guys holds interest to me.


I know Engh's work isn't highly esteemed here, but he does some pretty unique stuff, even if highly templatized.  The 11th hole at Black Rock is a one of a kind, and I don't think I would ever tire of playing that course. I enjoy quirk and funk in all its forms, and no doubt Jim is pretty high on that list.


My top 3 words would be unique, fun, and quirky...

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2018, 01:27:41 PM »
Mike,


Great thread topic, as the work from all 3 of these guys holds interest to me.


I know Engh's work isn't highly esteemed here, but he does some pretty unique stuff, even if highly templatized.  The 11th hole at Black Rock is a one of a kind, and I don't think I would ever tire of playing that course. I enjoy quirk and funk in all its forms, and no doubt Jim is pretty high on that list.


My top 3 words would be unique, fun, and quirky...


I've played lots of Engh courses but none of the other two.  I've never NOT had fun on an Engh design, and to me that's worthy of praise.  That being said, the aesthetics of his courses drive me bananas, first and foremost his penchant for "squiggle bunkers."  Also as a golf maintenance guy, his courses look like absolute maintenance hogs.  I think he's a great router of courses and great at creating fun shots for players, and one could do way worse from a design perspective.  Has anyone played an Engh on a flat site?  Pretty much all his designs are on mountainous terrain, curious to see what he would do on a near dead flat site.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2018, 01:38:44 PM »
I have played all of Strantz' work and enjoyed the heck out of them. The one outlier is Stonehouse, which I didn't like. The scale on most of his work (excluding Caledonia) is large and bold. We lost a good one when he died. I have played Four Engh courses and enjoy most of the holes. There are a few holes that are head scratchers, especially some of his greens. I can't figure out the hype for Sweetens Cove. I like quirk and greens that move a lot but just didn't get the course after one play and couldn't wait for the nine holes to be done.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kalen Braley

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2018, 02:19:44 PM »
Tom,


I agree with all of your sentiments about Enghs stuff, especially that his courses must be difficult for the maintenance crew.  But it doesn't change that you see a whole bunch of unique stuff that you just don't see anywhere else, even if there are common themes between his works.


I've played Black Rock, Sanctuary, Red Mesa, and Lakota and every one of them had something I've never seen elsewhere. From a playing perspective, my only complaint is the over use of the amphitheater-like bowled settinga on most of his holes.


P.S.  Ive only played one Stranz course, MPCC, and it was nothing short of fantastic IMO.  I suspect I would absolutely love TR as well based on what I've seen in pics..

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2018, 02:21:23 PM »
Mike,


Great thread topic, as the work from all 3 of these guys holds interest to me.


I know Engh's work isn't highly esteemed here, but he does some pretty unique stuff, even if highly templatized.  The 11th hole at Black Rock is a one of a kind, and I don't think I would ever tire of playing that course. I enjoy quirk and funk in all its forms, and no doubt Jim is pretty high on that list.


My top 3 words would be unique, fun, and quirky...


I've played lots of Engh courses but none of the other two.  I've never NOT had fun on an Engh design, and to me that's worthy of praise.  That being said, the aesthetics of his courses drive me bananas, first and foremost his penchant for "squiggle bunkers."  Also as a golf maintenance guy, his courses look like absolute maintenance hogs.  I think he's a great router of courses and great at creating fun shots for players, and one could do way worse from a design perspective.  Has anyone played an Engh on a flat site?  Pretty much all his designs are on mountainous terrain, curious to see what he would do on a near dead flat site.


Engh's Blackstone in Peoria, AZ is pretty flat, especially as compared to his better known work like Sanctuary or Redlands Mesa.


I agree I think he can design a lot of fun holes and shots, though the aesthetics can be rough. I think he also falls into a lot of templates, including some that are not very inspiring. For all that, his best holes are the site specific, crazy holes that fit a site. I'm thinking 12 at Fossil Trace, 14 at Blackstone, that peekaboo driveable hole on the back nine at Redlands Mesa, etc.

Billsteele

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2018, 02:37:26 PM »
I hate to disagree with the Sage of the South right off the bat but I think you undersell the appeal of Strantz to this audience. While there is a consensus that the Shore Course is terrific, I think there is also a generally held belief on GCA that Caledonia is a fine golf course and Tobacco Road has a great deal of appeal. Tobacco Road, Tot Hill Farm, Stonehouse and Royal New Kent tend to be more polarizing as a group. Not necessarily because they are big and bold but because of the notion that they are hard. I think some of that comes from the visual stimulation  provided by the designs. There seems to be a lot going on but if you think a bit about the hole and angles, they are pretty playable. However, the shots are more demanding than your average public golf course.

As for the premise of your post, I would choose unique, fun and stimulating. However, I would qualify those words as they apply to each architect.

As a caveat, I have only played two Engh courses (Redlands Mesa and Tullymore). In this limited sample size, I found the courses to be visually stimulating, almost artistic (particularly Redlands Mesa). The setting of Redlands Mesa (with views of the Colorado National Monument) is as unique and dramatic as the Pacific Ocean at MPCC in some respects.  As I recall, several holes on the front take tremendous advantage of the vistas and there are some very good holes along that stretch. My biggest criticism of the design is the overuse of the drop shot par three...but that plays into the visual stimulation that seems such a part of this course's core. I also thought the course was very playable and you could avoid trouble by giving some thought to the design and your limitations as a golfer. I found Tullymore to be a bit more difficult and relying a bit more on hazards and forced carries to dictate the manner of play. I found both to be enjoyable but enjoyed Redlands Mesa much more.

With respect to Strantz, my sample size is much greater (MPCC Shore, Tobacco Road, Royal New Kent, Tot Hill Farm).  His artistic side is well documented and evident in how he constructs most of his holes. There seems to be a small visual twist on most. Personally, I enjoyed each of the rounds mentioned above. I thought the Shore Course was eminently playable. The others are, to my way of thinking, more difficult. There are more forced carries, hazards impacting the line of play and less options on some of the holes. That does not make them less fun but it does increase the sphincter tightening factor on a lot of holes. Also, the importance of the angles of play seem more heightened on the latter three and require more thought/discretion. While I have heard the criticism from some that these courses are "too hard," they generally come from golfers who want to hit without any reflection other than the yardage. I think one of the reasons Royal New Kent and Stonehouse may have struggled financially is that after one play, many retail golfers just made up their mind that the course was too hard or too "goofy." When you stand on the first tee at Tobacco Road, most golfers either grin or grimace (the "what the hell did I get myself into" look).

As for Collins and Sweetens, put me down as a Kool-Aid drinker. I think it is a remarkable golf course. For one, he transformed a virtually table top flat piece of land into a unique, interesting and fun golf course. For the most part, you could play it with a putter. The bunker style is pretty bold and their placement generally holds visual clues as to a safe path to the hole. The course has considerable width and there are a number of ways to play the par fours and fives. The greens are extreme but that doesn't make them any less fun or interesting. What it does do is make playing the nine hole loop more than once a necessity because there are some pin placements that you are better off to play away from and some greens where the concept of a "proper miss" is really emphasized. The only letdown for me is that the par threes are aerial holes. This first one shotter is my least favorite hole on the course with the forced carry over the fescue and the massive green. The ninth hole is a good par three but it requires a carry over the waste area to a somewhat shallow green. However, I had a blast playing it and would never hesitate to tee it up there. To me, that's my criteria for an enjoyable golf course.

As for Tommy's assessment, I respect it. Perhaps it is possible to have too much uniqueness and quirk. I didn't think so but that's why ice cream comes in different flavors. It is also why rankings are only one tool in assessing a course's relative worth.




Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 03:16:29 PM »
Aside from Sweetens Cove, what has Collins built?
The real vs. should be Dan Hixson..  He has designed a couple brilliant courses so far, and if given opportunities, he could be discussed like the current major architects

Daryl David

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2018, 04:33:48 PM »
Aside from Sweetens Cove, what has Collins built?
The real vs. should be Dan Hixson..  He has designed a couple brilliant courses so far, and if given opportunities, he could be discussed like the current major architects


+1000

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Engh v. Strantz v. Collins
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 05:07:40 PM »
My introduction to Engh was Lakota Canyon and I'd be happy to never play one of his courses again.

My introduction to Strantz was Royal New Kent and I want to play everything that man touched.
Why the polar perspectives? I felt like Strantz was very honest in his contrived design. He made me doubt what my eyes saw but always presented a fair option. At times Engh felt like the exact opposite, he would present an option that looked safe and fair to only be well out of place or unplayable. I played well at Lakota Canyon and had no interest in going back around again. I played poorly at RNK and was ready and eager to go back out.

I really wish there was someone who would pick up the Strantz mantle and continue his legacy, I believe that for today's golfers his style would resonate rather well.
As for Collins and Sweetens Cove. I don't believe I would have drawn the connection between Engh, Strantz, and Collins. It's most likely because Rob's portfolio is rather small but I think in the long run he won't be compared the same way.
 My first playing of Sweetens I did no like it. I had played Sewanee earlier that day and felt like Sewanee was a much better course. But over time, and quite a number of rounds later, my mind has been changed. While I do feel Sewanee is an under appreciated course, Sweetens is simply sublime. What changed my mind? Well, I try to enjoy Sweetens like a kid enjoys a large playground. I don't keep score, I explore. I'll try to play each 9 different than the last, experimenting with new lines and new shots. In that regard,  Sweetens provides me a many of opportunities of doing so. I also feel that Sweetens is a course that gets better the shorter you play it. It's not an overly long course from the back tees, but it's a much more interesting course from the front tees.

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