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Rich Goodale

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2009, 01:51:28 AM »
The irony/tragedy/comedy of this latest desecration is that the R£A (I like that Marty!) has now regressed (with the collusion of the Link$ Tru$t) to putting a tee on a driving range that used to be the opening and closing holes of a great golf course (The Eden) that they desecrated to put in that driving range!

Where are Monty Python when we need them.... :'(

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2009, 02:31:01 AM »
I think it is a good move.The tee will be more out of play for 16 than it is now.Most plays in to 16 are coming at an angle because to go straight puts you tight to the OB.

I have not played TOC, but are they going to make the 17th Tee a highly unusual OB for the 16th? If not, it seems to me that this change will alter the character of the 16th totally, as immediately to the right of the green is not OB anymore.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 03:09:05 AM by Cristian Willaert »

Rich Goodale

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2009, 02:41:36 AM »
Chistian

The character of the 16th was changed from its original "design" many years ago when they created that OB to the right.  ~100 years ago James Braid had to play his ball off the (then) railroad track on his way to one of his 5 Open wins.  Also, the same problem has been extant on the 14th for the past 5 years, where the back tee is now on the Eden Course.  Not sure what the ruling for a topped drive would be, however.....

Rich

Jim Nugent

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2009, 02:47:05 AM »

I would not be surprised if the scoring average goes down with the changes, but the hole should improve.


Why do you think scoring may go down? 

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2009, 04:30:41 AM »
I think this is an excellent move, provided the landing area is of reasonable width.  The setup last time was a debacle.

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2009, 05:05:01 AM »
If this is an excellent move then an even more excellent move would be to put it back another 70-100 yards and again play the hole as a par 5 in a major championship.  They've got the room to do it, it won't take any extra time for the pros to play as they're banked up anyway.  The Hotel could then hold centre stage in the world's newest Alps hole. 



Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2009, 06:29:18 AM »
I was just thinking about how lengthening this hole makes a lot of sense (although less sense than a ball rollback).

The hole lost all connection to its history when it became an iron off the tee and a short iron into the green.   It was particularly embarassing that they narrowed the fairway down to nothing to prevent it becoming a driver wedge hole.

Jason

I totally agree with you. To me this move is a fairly benign in terms of the kind of changes that happen elsewhere. It will make the hole play a bit more like it was before. Why all the shrieking at the R&A on this, I really don't know. Its a "no brainer" as they say in the colonies.

As for the width of the fairway, I would actually widen it on the left to give the players a bail-out but one which gives them a much harder shot in due to the road hole bunker. As I write this I realise I'm arguing for widening a fairway, oh dearie me, obviously too many drinks last night.

BTW, the new tee is going to be located over the OB line. So do the players start the 17th with a penalty shot ?

Niall

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2009, 07:22:12 AM »
If this is an excellent move then an even more excellent move would be to put it back another 70-100 yards and again play the hole as a par 5 in a major championship.  They've got the room to do it, it won't take any extra time for the pros to play as they're banked up anyway.  The Hotel could then hold centre stage in the world's newest Alps hole. 




Excellent suggestion Sean!

Another alternative would be to play it from the forward tees as a long par three.....now that would test their metals!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2009, 07:47:42 AM »
Why not move the hotel 20 yards to the right and put a pond infront of the green and then make the hole a par 2 to reduce the amount of birdies...
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2009, 08:40:06 AM »
 why not build a balcony tee off the hotel and hold long drive championships?   :'( :'(
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 08:46:28 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2009, 09:51:58 AM »
Niall

I believe that the R&A, being the Governing body of our Game of Golf has caused most of our current problems by their inability to react or to utilise the new technologies dating back to events after WW1. This was the period, you may recall through your searches when much was discussed about the ball. The R&A being left well behind the USGA and never seem to have caught up let alone taken control of the situation.

The answer has never been the need to extend the length of each hole or to strive ever forward to 8,000 – 10,000 yard course. Two rounds of 10,000yards each that is a challenge. The answer is in the ability to understand and take control of the new technologies, incorporate them within the game without the need of vast financial commitments in minor/major course modifications.

I keep asking myself and others why is it only golf that has to change its playing fields. We have not seen much change in Football (UK & American), Rugby, I believe that also applies to Tennis, Basketball, Baseball to name but a few, so why do we accept it in Golf?

Pray tell me what real advantage do we get by constantly increasing the length of our courses apart from great big bills to undertake the work. The answer is none, the control of the game has slipped out the back door or perhaps I should say the equipment manufactures sneaked in without the Governing Bodies noticing and have taken the real control of the game. Its their need to sell equipment that drives the constant changing of our courses, they are keen to see ball travel increase, as last year equipment is now out of date and will not give the same help in hitting the fairway in say two. They, the equipment manufacture are in control. Try to change the rules and guess what you may have a court case on your hands. So much for some manufacturers caring about the game millions love, its just down to pure money and our Governing Bodies never saw it coming.  There is a simple way for the Governing Bodies to regain the initiative, ask the golfers to boycott those manufacturers that will not work with us. Lost orders always send an alarm call to the shareholders so taking our Governing Bodies to court will just add to their loss of sales. No sales, no money for legal costs. Yet we need to work with all ,if possible, the manufactures, the courses, the governing Bodies and last but certainly not least the Average Golfer. No I would and do not include the professionals, they have gone alone with them being paid by the manufacturers (a simple and clear conflict of interest). 

We have the Technology (as an old TV show use to say), so rather than rebuild courses why not control and incorporate it within the equipment, maintaining the status quo.  IMHO, the game needs consistency, that in twenty years time I can play the same courses and still be able to evaluate my game, on a hole-by-hole basis, but with these (what appear to be) constant changes its impossible. However, I can still judge how my athletics compare, the long & high jumps, all distance and other field events (rather poor compared to my teens).

Why do we need to keep increasing our courses - is it perhaps that our Governing Body just donot care, because that is the message I get. They seem to want to control the cash and seem to have forgotten their responsibility of MAINTAINING the game of Golf. Perhaps the biggest shame is that they have experience and quality individuals who know the game and have the ability to control the game by fast and prompt action, alas, they may never get the chance.

I am looking forward to the time when the Links Trust feels the need to lengthen the 1st Hole on TOC, utilising the same train of thought as the Road Hole by deciding to pull back the 1st Tee by 20-35 yard. Wonder if the R&A will agree so readily to that one.

Burying your head in the sand (in this case the Road Hole Bunker) is no way to behave if you are meant to be Governing the Game of Golf.  Then why should the R&A break with this tradition, perhaps, just perhaps for the sack of Golf, the game, which you have a responsibility to protect.

School Report on the R&A

Inattentive on the core subject matters, however skilful on generating money.
When Tested on the core subject seem to have learnt very little over the last term of 100 years
Concerns as to it having a future on its core subject in golf but expect will do well away from the game
Needs to vastly improve its communicative skills or may find itself alienated from the game of golf. 

Like a Policeman when we need one they are never there, wonder if that will be the epitaph for The Royal & Ancient. I sincerely hope not, I would dearly love to see them face up to the current problems with real strength and determination to put Golf back into the Game. If they did, I would go as far as to forgive them for what they have done to my father’s old home 6 Pilmour Links (Old Tom’s old house and the home where Young Tommy died). Let me tell you that is a massive gesture of forgiveness on my part.

Melvyn

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 09:55:40 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2009, 11:24:29 AM »

BTW, the new tee is going to be located over the OB line. So do the players start the 17th with a penalty shot ?


Sure, just like they already did - 2005 - on #2 (tee on the Himalayas) and #14 (tee on the Eden course).   ;D

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2009, 11:34:35 AM »
Melvyn

One thing I've learned from looking through the archives that the ever increasing distance of the golf ball and changes to equipment has been a constant concern right through the ages and not just after WW1 and now.

You've clearly got your own personal reasons for not liking the R&A but I think it unfair to blame them for allowing every innovation which you don't agree with. I can still recall learning the game with as a young sprog when I was given a random collection of cut down hickories with leather strap grips and finding it near impossible to get the bloody ball of the ground. Not all innovation is bad IMHO.

What the R&A is proposing brings the hole more in line with the way your ancestor had it playing, and it does so without requiring to bugger about the rest of the course or any other course for that matter. An elegant solution when all things considered.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2009, 12:27:35 PM »
Niall- I think the problem with this new 17th tee, is it does bugger up 16 a bit for the purpose of viewing and ofcourse extends the OB. I suppose you could make a case that no one goes out of bounds on 16 anyway with the second shots. With mowing surely the intent of the second shot could be preserved so as the players were hitting mid irons say 180-200 out, which for good players is what its all about. If they hit an iron to get to the same place as this new +35 tee, this could be the final straw in the usefulness of the old lady if there is no roll back and in all honesty probably 95% of ALL courses for the top end players.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2009, 12:50:05 PM »
Adrian

It will be interesting to see what will happen next year. Taking the tee back 35 yards could maybe add 50/60 yards onto the hole as players might not be able to cut the corner so much. It will also test their mettle that bit more as its harder to make an agressive play ie. tighter line off the tee, with the driver in your hand rather than a long iron which I guess is the design intent as well.

But you're right, there's not much more that could be done before technology "advances" make it a completely different hole to what it was/is.

Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2009, 01:18:46 PM »
I do find it a touch ironic in light of the above comments, that Old Toms acceptance of a better ball was really where the whole arms race started.   ;D


Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2009, 07:30:14 PM »
Here is what the pros think of the Road Hole extension proposal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/8312686.stm

Cheers

Ben

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2009, 08:05:37 PM »


Can someone remind me how many & how many times do the Pro’s play TOC each year.

Just trying to balance the revenue, they pay against the non-professionals golfers. I would, at a guess say it is not that much compared to the ordinary golfers, so why the hell are we changing the course for The Open. Not being a private course is it right to tinker for the sake of a few?

My view – leave it well alone and control the distance the ball travels – an issue nearly a century old and getting worse not to mention bloody expensive having to keep modifying the courses.


Kalen

As for the balls, have you ever seen a feathery ball, what it looks like if wet and after being well hit. Not forgetting they were also very expensive. The Gutta Percha gave stability to the ball for half a century and kept the price down. 


Melvyn

Kyle Harris

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2009, 09:22:26 PM »
How often are the Open tees used for daily play?

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2009, 03:10:26 AM »
Just trying to balance the revenue, they pay against the non-professionals golfers. I would, at a guess say it is not that much compared to the ordinary golfers, so why the hell are we changing the course for The Open. Not being a private course is it right to tinker for the sake of a few?

How often are the Open tees used for daily play?

Never - they're only used for professionals and amateurs in the Links Trophy (which has a handicap cutoff of +2).  They are not changing the course for anyone else.  For Melvyn to suggest they are "tinker[ing] for the sake of a few" is laughable and false.

My view – leave it well alone and control the distance the ball travels – an issue nearly a century old and getting worse not to mention bloody expensive having to keep modifying the courses.
A completely unrealistic position.  If the USGA and R&A decided this minute that they wanted to roll back the ball, there is no prospect of the new ball regime being in place by the time of next year's Open. 

Hopefully by the time of the next St Andrews Open (2015), they'll have done what they must do, and new tees, ridiculous mowing lines etc won't be necessary.




Melvyn Morrow

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2009, 05:37:34 AM »
Chris

You have totally confused me by your statement
“They are not changing the course for anyone else.  For Melvyn to suggest they are "tinker[ing] for the sake of a few" is laughable and false”
If they are not changing the course for anyone else then why is my comment ‘for the sake of a few’ laughable and false’. It seems to me that is precisely what is being done.

completely unrealistic position’ Sorry Chris, how can it be, I would not expect things to change overnight. Using a little common sense, we cannot keep extending our courses for The Few. Golf is for all golfers, not just the lucky few who make a living off the professional game.  I believe that not taking control and saving our current and old courses is a completely unrealistic position. That is what happens when you put money before the game.

To do nothing but pamper the Professionals is a dereliction of duty.

Melvyn

PS My concern is for the game and the ordinary golfers not the professionals who live off it do not come into play IMHO until we have catered for the average golfer who tends to foot the final bill for all the changes etc. They are the real share/stock holders of the game and the power force who should have a say in what is done to their courses.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 05:43:57 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2009, 06:19:33 AM »
Chris

You have totally confused me by your statement
“They are not changing the course for anyone else.  For Melvyn to suggest they are "tinker[ing] for the sake of a few" is laughable and false”
If they are not changing the course for anyone else then why is my comment ‘for the sake of a few’ laughable and false’. It seems to me that is precisely what is being done.
I'm not sure what is confusing Melvyn.  The 'tinkering' involves building a new tee, which will be used for a couple of weeks each year.  It won't have any impact whatsoever on those who play the course the other fifty weeks.  The cost of building that tee will be a minuscule part of the tournament budget.

Quote
completely unrealistic position’ Sorry Chris, how can it be, I would not expect things to change overnight. Using a little common sense, we cannot keep extending our courses for The Few. Golf is for all golfers, not just the lucky few who make a living off the professional game.  I believe that not taking control and saving our current and old courses is a completely unrealistic position. That is what happens when you put money before the game.
Thanks for taking what I said out of context...

How can it be?  Lets start with some simple mathematics - according to the official website of the Open Championship, there are 269 days until play commences at St Andrews.  Rolling back the ball is simply not a viable option in the context of that tournament (which is the subject of this thread, after all).  I fully agree that the R&A and USGA should take control and save our traditional courses...but unfortunately they don't have a time machine - its too late for the 2010 Open.

Quote
PS My concern is for the game and the ordinary golfers not the professionals who live off it do not come into play IMHO until we have catered for the average golfer who tends to foot the final bill for all the changes etc. They are the real share/stock holders of the game and the power force who should have a say in what is done to their courses.
In general I would agree with you, but not on this occasion - this change has no impact on the average golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2009, 07:01:24 AM »
Chris

Excuse me but it would seem we agree. As for time scale for changes I have not stated any and would not expect much to be done by 2010 – come on mate we are dealing with the R&A.

I do not see why you thought my comment was laughable and false, but that’s your right.

My interest is the game. The Professionals are the elite who at times, I wonder if they are deserving of the money they receive. That with the thought of what is being done to our old courses for the privilege of watching them, well I believe that is questionable. As for the cost, be it minor or not I feel it would be more appropriate to offer golfers a free day of Golf on TOC than spend or waste (depending upon your point of view) the money for something that will only be occasionally used. Why not some compensation for spending money on the Pro’s, why not give something back to the poor sods who pay a lot of money to play TOC – why not have a few free days of golf for Mr & Mrs Average Golfer - don’t they deserve to be considered or are they just to be regarded as the financiers of the game for the privileged few.

I am trying to look at the overall picture relating to the game of golf, I have little time for the PGA, for they tend to look after themselves.

Melvyn

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2009, 05:51:27 PM »
Niall,

An extra 35 yards will not add 50-60yards.  I have never seen any pro have any difficulty whatsoever in clearing the hotel.  In fact I remember Clarke and Westwood having a bit of fun drawing it over and around the hotel in a practice round.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole to be extended for 2010 Open
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2009, 04:53:53 AM »
Perhaps some of you more familiar with the Old Course can comment on this. With several holes being lengthened for the 2005 Open, isn't it now the case that many drives now need to be hit in a direction that passes over the previous green? Isn't the whole character of the course being altered, when one starts making these very slight changes in the routing?

It's quite clear why the R&A are making these changes; the Road Hole does not play the way it used to. Isn't this an admission on their own part that they have lost control of the game of golf?  Be prepared to see more tinkering of the Old Course in the coming years, as the R&A needs the Open at St. Andrews. It would be a real own goal by the R&A, if at some stage, it was decided that the Old Course would not host the Open, due to it's inability to test the professionals. But that day will come, unless the R&A take action. In some ways, the R&A are just putting off the inevitable.

On the practical side, there must be a limit as to how much more they can stretch the Old Course (and the other courses on the Open rota).

Be thankful that it's only the length of the course that is being altered. At least the course can be shortened if they ever take some decision on the ball issue. It would be a terrible situation if they started moving bunkers or reshaping the greens on the Old Course.

Dónal.

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