[hick]

Does anyone know why the Ranch Is in the top ten in Massachusetts and not Taconic, The Orchards( Womans Open 2004), Or Essex County.

[Mike_Cirba]

That's top 15, hick.  

I also see where The International in Bolton (didn't that course used to be about 8,000 yards?) finished 8th, ahead of Charles River at 13.  

Can anyone discuss their comparative merits?

[Matt_Ward]

For all those who love Massachusetts golf I have to ask this:

How does Crumpin-Fox in Bernardston not get rated at all? The course is simply a grand design by Roger Rulewich and has been a former mainstay in nearly all ratings that come from the Bay State.

Mike C:

The International is best played from sensible tees (hard to believe I'm saying this, huh?) but the course is not as diverse or architecturally sound as Essex County, The Orchards or even Taconic. In the same breath that doesn't mean I would automatically include all of those courses in my personal top 15 for Mass -- I just know that Crumpin Fox would get at least one of those spots though.

[SPDB]

Ditto on New Seabury, no way that course is #4 in the state.

I note that the International course that was ranked was Fazio's recent effort there, not the 28,987 yard RTJ one.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean;

Thanks for the clarification.  I didn't think the original's reputation was all that renowned, even among the locals.  

[THuckaby2]

Mike - did you look at the Nebraska rankings?  Jeez, I hate to speak ill of my brethren, but those seem to be WAY off.  Our common fave is #1, but Wild Horse way down at 6 and no Bayside?  Obviously I don't know much about NE golf, but I know the others would have to be damn good to be above these two... strange.

Your state seems about right to me, from what I know... maybe switch Lehigh and Saucon, and I'm sure you or redanman would have lots of other changes, but at first glance it looks pretty correct...

Same goes for CA, really.  Obviously I believe Rustic and Barona need to fit in somewhere, and I have no idea what Shady Canyon is, but for the most part it seems about right...

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Yeah, generally I think the PA list is good with some degree of quibbling.

For instance, I'm thrilled to see Huntingdon Valley get some due, moving up from 11 to 5.  A GD rater I was paired with there last summer asked afterwards, "can you tell me why this course is not in the Top 100??"  I couldn't give him a good answer, myself.

Haven't played Laurel Valley, but the restored Aronimink is good and tough.  

Not sure how Philly CC dropped from 9 to 12, after a FANTASTIC renovation done mostly inhouse with Ron Forse's consultation.  

How the forest that is Manufacturers jumped up from 21 to 13 is beyond me...I think it's wayyyy overrated, on the GW list too.  

Stonewall is too low, by a LOT.

I haven't played it, but I do need to get to Olde Stonewall.  If it's actually better than Doak's Stonewall though, I'll eat my hat and the wrap-around shades.  

Philly Cricket also jumped forward quite a few spots, and I'm not sure i understand the basis for that one.  Neither do I understand the significant drop of Moselem Springs, which I think is a fine course with some excellent greens.

Lookaway doesn't deserve to be in the top 50 in PA, frankly.


As far as the Nebraska list, was that wheat growing in those fields out there, or another herb?

[THuckaby2]

Great stuff, Mike.

What the PA list hammers home once again is the incredible depth your state has in great golf courses.  I'd say a list of those NOT included would still be damn good, wouldn't it?

Of course you do know I'm going to disavow ever saying this if necessary some day.  

TH

[SPDB]

Mike -
Maybe Philly Cricket garnered some attention because of its new 18? (i.e. more people visited the course to see the Militia Hill course, which produced a better rating for Flourtown/Wissahickon 18?). I think it is a great course, although kind of a mixed bag. I think its rating is probably comfortable where it it.

My sense is that Huntsville is an unfair placeholder, and will likely continue its fall in subsequent rankings

Laurel Valley doesn't belong as high as it is. Heck, you could probably swap Philly CC with it.

I would swap in Great Bear for Hartefeld, or Lookaway (haven't played).

What the heck is SV (Grace) doing in there?

Fox Chapel is too low, and I would have thought it would have benefitted from Silva's restoration and the added publicity of the Curtis Cup, not suffered.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

Save the hat -- Olde Stonewall is not superior to Stonewall -- anyone saying such a thing needs a few days in the rubber room.

Regarding Lookaway -- 100% with you Mike. If the course were to get any award it has to be the creative routing with the "U" turn you make on the front side. Interesting stuff, huh? I hope all anti Rees Jones fans see this coming from me.

Couple of other points on Pennsy --

Can someone please explain to me the constant need to thump the qualities of Saucon Valley. This course refuses to die -- it is literally one of the most overrated designs that exists. Minus a few holes on the Old I just shake my head and wonder how this facility still gets the votes that it does. I guess it must be me.

Laurel Valley is a good Dick Wilson design, but it gets too much mileage being near AP's home turf and for my $$ the layout is always overwatered and is a long boring slog. It doesn't hurt the course that corporate alley frequents the place with clients.

Mike, it's too bad that Great Bear was not mentioned for a top 25 berth. Here you have a course that is just as good as Huntsville and yet gets little awareness. Be interested in your comments.

A few last comments -- how does Fox Chapel get bumped so low? Here you have a supreme classic style course from the Golden Age and it gets pushed thaaaaat low on the totem pole.

Can someone tell me if The Golf Course at Glen Mills really deserves a spot in the top 25 when Mystic Rock (I know Mike your favorite course  ) doesn't make it?

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean;

Believe it or not, I'd agree with EVERY SINGLE COMMENT you just made, with the caveat that I haven't played Laurel Valley or Fox Chapel and therefore can't concur but I do sense you're right on based on television viewing of each!

This must be the first time in GCA history that we've been totally in agreement!  I see you're coming around!

Great Bear is a really good, underrated Nicklaus course, and is much better than either Hartefeld or Lookaway (and others).

Huntsville is a good course on a great piece of land if you catch my drift.  How does one spell M I S S E D opportunity?

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

The course at Glen Mills is a mystery to me.  The front nine is really good, but the back nine is sandwiched between a steep hillside and wetlands, and is just awkward and contrived.

How it has gotten such high rating in all publications is beyond me.  Of course, we agree to disagree that Mystic Rock should take it's place.

How about we just settle on Great Bear as the best public course in the state?  

As far as Saucon Valley, it's certainly inoffensive.  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

Cut it out -- I'm still trying to get in agreement the
following people -- you, me, Pat, Huck and Tom MacWood. Guess it would be easier winning the Power Ball -- right?

All kidding aside -- Mike have you checked out the Jersey listing? ACCC is rated #5 -- a solid Doak restoration indeed and a ton of $$ pumped in from Park Place Entertainment, but no way #5 -- more like at best a top 20 position.

Did you see that beyond Olde York GD also listed Running Deer high in the pecking order?

And, I'm still waiting for someone to explain why Twisted Dune never gets a blurb on it.  

[SPDB]

Mike,
I suspect the conclusions you and I draw are often closer than you would have them, the only difference, of course, is that we arrive at them in entirely different ways.

I have not played Applebrook, but given everybody's raves here, is it surprising to you that it was left off? I hope to play this spring.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean;

Oh lord!  

How could I have forgotten about Inniscrone & Applebrook??

Supplant either of them about where Manufacturers and Saucon Valley Grace fall and now we're starting to talk...

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

I still haven't seen Doak's work at ACCC so it's tough to comment on how much it's been improved.  I do know that the GD rater I played with at Huntingdon raved about it.

Haven't played Olde York either, but any Jersey list with Jasna Polana in the top 20 is immediately suspect!

Not surprisingly given the criteria, both Pine Hill and Running Deer are higher ranked than Twisted Dune, but I know where I'll continue to send people who ask about where to find great golf in south Jersey.  

[ChipRoyce]

For those who don't have the list, here it is:

Massachusetts
1. The Country Club (Clyde/Squirrel), Brookline [1]*
2. Kittansett C., Marion [2]*
3. Salem C.C., Peabody [3]*
4. New Seabury Resort (Blue), Mashpee [7]*
5. Myopia Hunt C., S. Hamilton [5]*
6. Nantucket G.C., Siasconset [4]*
7. Sankaty Head G.C., Siasconset [9]*
8. International G.C. (Oaks), Bolton.
9. Hyannisport C., Hyannis Port.
10. Eastward Ho! C.C., Chatham [10]*
11. Charles River C.C., Newton C.*
12. Oyster Harbors C., Osterville [13]*
13. The Ranch G.C., Southwick.L
14. Brae Burn C.C., W. Newton [8]*
15. Cape Cod National G.C., Brewster [6]

[ChipRoyce]

Now for my comments, there's a lot of courses I haven't played on the list, so I will reserve my comments to those I've played.

In short, the placement of New Seabury and the International, regardless of where they are on the list are travesties!

While I enjoyed playing New Seabury and found the International fun for the charity scramble, neither of them are top class and would push Essex County from the list.

As usual, and unlike the GolfWeek list which has much greater integrity, GolfDigest seems to be pandering to the "popular" tastes (resort and novelty courses) rather than the truly best courses.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Just so that everyone is clear...

The course that shows up as #8 on the MA list is the NEW course at the International, called the Oaks.  It was designed by Tom Fazio, and has been open for a year or two.

The OLD course at the International is now called "the Pines".  The design is credited to Geoffrey Cornish, and a redesign (in 1972) is credited to Robert Trent Jones.  This is the course that can be stretched to 8,325 yards, and is in the Guiness Book of World Records as the longest course in the world.  

[Brad Tufts]

Finally, a thread that I really can chime in on...here goes...

1.  I dont think New Seabury should be that hight, it is a nice course in a great setting, but I dunno if the renovations have changed the fact that it is a pretty benign cape-style course.

2.  Myopia as #5, perfect.  Hoever, Essex should be #4 in front of it.  There are no weak holes on the course, and the new maintenance program promoting firm and fast should be commended.

3.  The Ranch should not be listed here.  There is a show called the New England Golf Journal or something (maybe affiliated with the magazine of the same name) on one of the Boston stations on which I saw a tour of the Ranch.  I thought, wow the course must be great, until I noticed that the show advertised the same publicity for any other course calling their number to be featured.  This knocked the course down a bit in my mind.  I admittedly have not played the course, but it is advertised to be built down old ski slopes or something, and the video shown did not do the course must justice in terms of scaling.

4.  Taconic should no doubt be in the top ten.  It has conditioning, history, ambiance, and all the rest.  I at least beats Seabury hands down.

Thats about it for now.

Brad

[Martin Del Vecchio]

I played The Ranch twice last year.  I liked it, but not as much as Red Tail, which I played 5 or 6 times.

The Ranch features two par 5s that are very similar, #9 and #16.  They both appear to be played down old ski slopes; #16 is actually called "Ski Slope" in the course-marketing parlance of our times.  #9 played 502 yards the first time I played it, and I hit it with a driver and 8-iron.  I'm not against short par 5s; they just felt a little gimmicky to me.  Not to mention a little slow; since you can't see your drives land, and since both fairways are canted to one side quite a bit, it can take a while to find your tee shot.

I must say, however, that I liked the course better than Ron Whitten did:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/ranchgolfclub.html

Yikes!

[TEPaul]

The International is ranked ahead of Charles River? Jeesus Christ, that's total madness!

David Wigler--where in the hell are you? We have a lot of castrating of Massachusetts raters and rankers to do!

Charles River is a wonderful golf course. I belong to a Donald Ross course and my Dad must have belonged to about 5-6 of them in his life and I would say that Charles River might be the most interesting and most fun Ross course I've ever seen, and that includes one of my all time favorite quirk courses--Misquamicut or even Seminole.

[ChipRoyce]

I stand corrected - I got the Pine and Oaks courses at the International mixed up. I've heard that the new member's Fazio course is good... but better than others including Essex?

BTUFTS - Interesting you brought it up. I LOVE both Essex and Myopia... if I were to have to play 2 courses within 10 min of each other (and assuming good weather year round, which is impossible on the North Shore)  these just might be the 2 I'd like to be "stuck with".  

Interesting you brought up the Essex / Myopia comparison.  I personally love Essex, so many good / classic holes and the new 13th hole is a wonderful compliment to the course. At the same time, I hope my Manchester friends don't get mad if I say that I just slightly prefer Myopia. The course has just a little more variation and a few more memorable holes. The bunkering is fantastic and the 4th is one of my favorite all-time Par 4's (second only to the 13th at PV)  (as long as Matt doesn't double cut & roll the green).  

I would put Essex right behind it based on where I've been / what I know. At the same time, I still haven't played Eastward Ho (check out Ran's excellent profile), Charles River and Kittansett - 3 on my wish list and from repuatation seem to challenge the Myopia and Essex connection.

Will be back up in MA this 4th of July - those interested should think of possible tracks to play

[Brad Tufts]

Chip,

Personally, I like Essex a touch more than Myopia, mainly for the weak hole comparison.  I love Myopia as well, but whereas #3, a 250 yd par 3 is fantastic and challenging, numbers 1 (255 par 4) and number 6 (about 265-270) are weak holes.  I realized this when playing a junior interclub there (the only times ive played it), i asked the myopia member in my group how do you play #6, and he said, "hopefully a three wood and two putts for birdie" and this came from a 14 yr old.

My other main question about these ratings is why Kittansett jumped ahead of Salem.  I thought that the amazing effort that the Salem crew did getting the course back in shape from a tough 2000-2001 winter and hosting the open (with a winning score of E i might add) would help them, but it never happened.  Ive never played Kittansett either so I am curious.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

The reason Kittansett went higher is because of a great renovation and tree removal program, it is a great golf course.  I played it last year and was amazed at the strategy that the course had.  Then add the tree removal that opened up some great views of the ocean...

I think Eastward Ho! should be even higher, but it is difficult to get on there so I am assuming not many raters get to play.  Taconic and Crump belong on the list.  It is just amazing that Massachusetts has such a good and varied collection of courses.

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