[Dave_Miller]

Gil:  This is a great question and terrific excercise.
In designing my own club it would be private, Ed Baker would be Admissions Chair and sole determiner of who gets in.  An understanding of the Great Architecture of the game might convince Ed to let a person in.  The Club House would incorporate some of the great features of other clubs such as the Men's Grill at Aronimink.  Ladies would be permitted to join but they would have to clear Ed.  They would have their own Grill/Lounge off the locker room.
Selected reciprocals would be arranged.
Everyone would have to have an understanding and great respect for the traditions and history of the game.
The design of the course would incorporate many features of the Great Architects Ross, MacDonald, Flynn etc.
The only hard and fast rule would be that anyone who played in more than 3 hours and 55 minutes would be automatically expelled.
Cheers
Dave Miller

[Andy Levett (Guest)]

Lots of people outside US of A want to know (maybe) what's Power Bait?

[Andy Levett (Guest)]

Lots of people outside US of A want to know (maybe) what's Power Bait?

[ian]

Strictly public, caddies required, 100 rounds a day.

I see too many private clubs, too intimately, to ever want to be part of one (even dictator).

[Gib_Papazian]

What is Power Bait?

Let us say you wanted to catch cats in the alley and used catnip as bait . . . . it is not sporting, like scopes on hunting rifles.

Power Bait is a brightly colored play-doh type product that is simply glopped onto a 3-pronged hook and tossed inthe water as a neanderthal would. No art, no talent necessary, just like hitting an ERC II - cheating yourself, nature and God.

Plus, the trout swallows the 3-way (treble) hook all the way down and it is almost impossible to extract it without killing the fish. Therefore, catch and release is nearly impossible. People who fish with Power Bait tend to drink Bud . . . both are banned at Papazian Hills.

Now, let's establish a few more touchstones for my golf club:

Because I have magically created 36 holes, every day a tee time for a foursome (one for each) of local clergy (Rabbi's etc), cops and fireman will be set aside.

They will have the run of the facilities including food and drink that will be kept on a running tab throughout the year.

On December 31st, the total will be tabulated, sent to the the respective Police/Fire Chiefs and Clergy. On January 1st, the bills will be thrown in the trash.

Group Captain Ian Pierce (Club Secretary) will enclose the bill and pen a nice letter to the recipients, soliciting a donation to the caddy scholarship fund.

Tax deductible for the individuals of course.

Additionally, if a kid wishes to become a cop or fireman or go to seminary, the beneficiaries of the club's good graces will make damned well sure that the kid gets into the program of their choice. Failure to take care of one of our kids is punishable by banishment to the local muni.

Longtime caddies who need drug and alcohol rehab will be sponsored by the club. . . . . but three strikes and they are out. We have already had enough of Dexter Manely and Steve Howe. Papazian Hills is a club, not a home for wayward addicts. (See: downtown S.F.)

Final thought:

I received an e-mail from a prominent member of the Treehouse, ripping my ass for having the temerity to include a correct answer to the "Redan Question" above as a prerequisite for membership.

Evidently, I am another GCA snob who has no respect for those who wish to learn and one of the reasons that many people shy away from posting.

Okay, in the spirit of inclusion, I promise to recind the offending question as long as the applicant is willing to read one of the major works on golf architecture and write a reasonably cogent esssay on their findings.

Too much to ask? Bullshit. I wrote a 3000 word essay for Brad Klein on my architectural philosophy as a requirement for inclusion onto the GolfWeek panel. It is a damned good piece too . . . . I've sold it and been paid 3 times for it in different publications.

Herb Wind said it was okay to recycle your work. . . . and who am I to argue?

That is not too much to ask. (I'm talkin' to you . . . and you know who you are even though you only post once a week)

Unless you have a club with no entrance requirements but a collared shirt, what is the point of a private club for chrissakes???

Like minded people form clubs. Get over it. Some are based on race, religion, sex, social status or wealth.

The membership at Papazian Hills is based soley on a love and passion for our game. If you can demonstrate that and figure out a way to provide a good case of wine each year, you are in.

Provided Huntley doesn't give you the ding.

[Lou Duran]

Gib,

I would love to read your Golfweek essay.  Would you please post it?

I suspect that a club founded by a produce peddler (though a very erudite one) with a quirky (but highly effective) swing would open its doors to an old hack from the golfing wilderness of Texas. Or is Papazian Hills like Cypress Point in that by merely posing the question (as to membership), one ensures a negative outcome?  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I enjoy the 'membership' at a large university Golf course. Teachers, students and alumni from all over the globe that is in a constant state of flux. They may have their own unique backgrounds, disciplines, areas of interest (which makes it fascinating) but they all have one thing in common - they enjoy golf.

[nuzzo]

I'd like to amend that the caddies don't have to be students, just not the high end corporate trained caddies.  The club should not skim from their gross, they get the whole cut.
Only 4 carts on the premises for the real old or physically challenged (one has one of those swivel seats for the really injured).  They can be reserved in advance.
No tee times.
My vote is for a private club.  But unescorted guests are invited to play, if they ask appropriately.
How about no rakes?
Cheers.

[Tim weiman]

Gib:

This may offend some, but one very nice quality in a potential member is someone who pays their dues regularly but really doesn't play very often.

For example: a person who belongs to other clubs in town and has a wife that doesn't like them hanging out at the "golf club" on weekend afternoons.

It's awfully nice to go out on a Saturday afternoon and see very few other people on the course.

A luxury, but it really makes the "walk in the park".

[Lou Duran]

Ditto Tom MacWoods comments.   The diversity of backgrounds, professions, and interests among the golfers at OSU made it a very special place.  My "regular" group consisted of an always changing 20+ guys ranging from students like myself, to professors, social workers, attorneys, doctors, small business owners, salesman, retirees, etc.  We all competed, argued heatedly, and, generally, got along famously.   Our love of golf and the Scarlet course made the considerable differences in age, wealth, and professional status trully insignificant.  In hindsight, perhaps the crowded conditions and less than ideal maintenance were small prices to pay.   It would be an honor to be a member at The Golf Club.  But I wonder if it would be as much fun.

[THuckaby2]

This is all great stuff.  The only point I will argue with the Armenian - who seems to really have this nailed - is that he  NEEDS to meet Ed Baker.  Once he does, Mr. Baker will be on the Membership Committee at Papazian Hills (which would be Baker and Huntley).  Dave Miller was dead solid perfect right on in his post, by my take.  I'd pay each of those two to join any club I formed!

By the way, for those who have met each of John Bernhardt and Ed Baker, are they not brothers separated at birth?  That's a meeting that MUST, MUST, MUST happen.  The fact that each of them is just plain a great guy makes this even cooler...

TH

[Kevin_Reilly]

This may offend some, but one very nice quality in a potential member is someone who pays their dues regularly but really doesn't play very often.

For example: a person who belongs to other clubs in town and has a wife that doesn't like them hanging out at the "golf club" on weekend afternoons.

I fit that profile to a tee!  The only time I'm able to play is at 5:30 a.m. on Saturdays at a local course with some friends, while I play monthly fees somewhere else.  They need more people like me!

[Tim Weiman]

Kevin Reilly:

I should probably give credit to Bobby Ranum the superintendent at the Atlantic Golf Club.

Bobby once told me a story about him spending a day with his counterpart at Pine Valley.

When they finshed up playing, the Pine Valley guy said to Bobby: "Isn't this a great place?".

Bobby startled his host by replying: "No, I really don't think so".

"Why is that?", the Pine Valley guy asked.

"Well", Bobby told him, "it is just not my idea of a golf club".

Naturally, the Pine Valley host was quite taken back.  So, Bobby further explained:

"My idea of a golf club is where you can go play golf......whenever you want......at Pine Valley, you can't do that".

I hate to knock Pine Valley, but do think Bobby Ranum had a point.  Interestingly, a golf club like Ballybunion is cutting back outside play because, guess what, their members want to play golf!

[Gib_Papazian]

Tim,
I'd like to think that having 36 holes of outstanding golf would ease the overcrowding problem. Somehow, Sunningdale always comes to mind when I conjure up an idyllic setting with 36 holes.

The "New Course" is a Harry Colt. I love it.

Lou,

Somehow, it is tough to envision Papazian Hills suffering from "Augusta National" type snobbery. If you want to be a member, there is no harm in asking, eh?

Besides, Huckster has already proposed you for membership.

I would hope one of the first inductees is the mythical "Pizza Delivery Man." Somehow, he is exactly what I had in mind for Papazian Hills.

Since I have already established that there will be no absolute rules, the requirement of a case of vino will not be necessary.  Instead, pepperoni pizzas for the clubhouse during the final round of all Majors will be fine.

I also like the idea of an international membership - not just to collect dues from guys who are rarely there - but because I glean a lot of perspective from other parts of the country and world.

Following our Barona junket, Shivas, Barnhardt and I stopped off at an outdoor eatery on the beach north of San Diego. As is often the case with guys I've met from the Treehouse, the conversation was both fascinating and meandered far afield of golf architecture.

Chicago, Louisiana and Burlingame . . . . three completely different worlds.

Most of the GCA gang seem to have an inquisitive quality about everything - golf is just the thread that binds us together.

So, I do not want to give the impression that Papazian Hills will be comprised of architecture addicts to the exclusion of everything else, because the most memorable conversations I have had with Treehouse dwellers have been while playing golf . . . . but not necessarily *about* golf.

[Gib_Papazian]

Dave,

Sorry to disagree with the Aronomink comparison. If first impressions make any difference - and perhaps this is unfair - that was about the coldest place I have ever been in my life.

We were guests of the pro and came into the grill for a beer and a look at all the Jay Siegel memorabilia. There was a group of guys our age standing at the bar in an otherwise empty room.

My buddy politely inquired about some of the plaques and trophies on the wall . . . something about there appearing to be two club championships as if Siegel had started another one himself.

Silence.


We had taken our hats off, were dressed appropriately and for some reason were stared down by these snots as if a pair of cockroaches had just crawled under the door.

Finally the bartender broke the uncomfortable silence and answered our question.

We asked if it was preferrable for the club to take cash for our drinks or just sign it to Olympic. The bartender just rolled his eyes about the members who were evidently too good to talk to us and waved his hand that we ought not worry about it.

Still silence.

I recall we left two untouched beers on the bar, got in the car and drove away, never to return.

Now, contrast that two days later at Winged Foot.

The pro set up a game for us on  the West course with a couple of members - also around our age and pretty good players.

After three hours of joke and story telling in the bar, this pair insisted we accompany them to a swank Westchester party that evening and before we knew it, they had arranged a tee time on the East course for the next day.

Never had that much fun in my life! It was the essence of what I would hope happens to everyone who comes to Papazian Hills (this is beginning to take on a life of its own in my mind).

Naturally, a year later, they came out from Winged Foot for a few days in San Francisco and we have remained friends since.

[THuckaby2]

Very interesting how one can receive a cold impression at certain clubs... it hasn't happened much to me, but it has happened.  The worst ever for me was Chicago GC, but I have learned since that it must have been a bad day or something so I can give them the benefit of the doubt.

On the much more positive side, here are some private clubs that I've been to that have this "welcoming/fun/non-pretensious" feel that would be fine models for Papazian Hills:

Basically any club in Ireland

Most in Scotland, with some obvious exceptions (Muirfield, though heck, they were nice to me there even - just a little too many rules for how Papazian Hills should be).

Monterey Peninsula CC
Olympic Club (surprise!)
Cypress Point Club (yes! ok, I've only been there twice, but it amazed me how welcoming everyone was once you were inside the gates)
Lehigh CC
Yale University GC
Charles River CC!!!

There are likely many more, but those are at the top of the list or at least the ones I can think of right now.  Any of those would be a fine model for Papazian Hills, at least in this respect, by my very limited take anyway.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

This thread, especially the first page, is a riot.  But still a fun exercise.  Who doesn't dream of this?

My 2 cents:

Walking mandatory.  Caddie program, certainly not mandatory.  Taking caddies seems to restrict conversation between players, I've experienced, not to mention I very rarely play well when taking a caddie for some reason.  But when you take caddies, no money changes hands, like at PVGC.  Pay comes from an annual donation fund.  Caddies can play almost anytime, like at Chechessee Creek.

Trolleys certainly allowed, though I've personally never used one.

At least 36 holes, one prairie like, the other parkland (hey, I like parkland courses, OK?)

No tee times.

Plenty of drinking water on course.

I also like holes/nines that return near clubhouse.  Not everyone has time to play 18.  Also, it's so you can start on empty holes if #1 is crowded (my m.o. almost every time I play my course).

One feature I was surprised no one mentioned was housing.  Absolutely no housing within sight of the course.  Not even the on site cabins.  come to think of it just make it like Bandon, where the pro shop is the same building as the hotel, which would be the on-site member/guest housing.  The togetherness of the dorm-like atmosphere, with the bar at the bottom of the stairs is great.

Maintenance paths are like at Kiawah-Ocean.  Hard sand paths that can be played from w/o damaging club.  (My biggest dissappointment at Pacific Dunes was the rock maintenance paths, second is the railroad ties walking paths).  Try not damaging your club on those maintenance paths, which supposedly must be played from w/o incurring a penalty.

There are "older" golf history/knowledge/story tellers like Linc Rhoden, Bob Huntley, and Harvey Penick around to tap for great bar room stuff.

Overhead, high pressure showers like at Saucon Valley.

Last big wish/dream:  my daughter and 2nd child grow up to love and appreciate the game like I do, thus I can play side-by-side with them, bags on back, at this wonderful club.


Comments about others' comments/wishes:

Neal, good call on the parking lot.  I like those when I encounter them.

Shivas, good call on the governors on the doctor-allowed-only carts.

Wigler, good call on the environmental restrictions, there will be none at this club.

Lynn, a requirement to travel abroad every year is fine for those like yourself with grown up children, but many of us with young children just can't get away for long periods of time.  Not to mention that not everyone can afford overseas trips.

Gib, not everyone is a wine drinker/lover.  I'm a dark beer and ale kind of guy.  Oregon's own Black Butte Porter, my fave, would always be on tap at my club (not called Papazian Hills, of course   ).

And about your (Gib's) experience with the guys at Winged Foot, that's what I've experienced with guys on this board.  Wonderful.

[A_Clay_Man]

Ok Ok enough of this wishing your life away.

Make it happen!

Why not.? Green onions look good this august, ayhuh Gib?

There ought to be an acceptable bankrupt course out there where acquisition costs will be pennies on the $. and turning it into Gib hills should be a breeze for the amount of knowledgable equipted arborial types that will no longer post here due to spending all their time at the Gibsters.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
You’re right on. With the present downturn in golf, there are lots of course selling for 25% - 50% less then what they cost to develop. Think of the advantages of buying an existing course, no permitting, no zoning BS, utilities on site, maintenance building and equipment on site, water source available...Lots of positives.

The negatives, assuming we would want to completely redo the course, acquisition costs would probably be higher then raw land, and natural features may have been ruined by original construction. It would seem to me that the biggest advantage would be all the red tape would have already been cut. That's a big deal in time and money. I wonder if any architects here have ever taken a golf property and completely started over from scratch?

[Gib_Papazian]

Don,
Our Ocean Course is a complete redo, but it is easier to do on sand based property.

Scott,
Papazian Hills will have all sorts of beers on tap and you are perfectly welcome to donate a keg or two instead of a case of vino.

You might start with Whitbread Lager  . . . the club's founder is a lager guy

Budweiser is still classified as toxic waste.  

That said, I do not want the vino to become a financial issue for the members.

Because this is not a snobby club, there will be a list of banned wines.

Anybody who donates something obnoxious like Screaming Eagle or Opus 1 will have the case auctioned off on e-bay with the proceeds donated to the widows and orphans fund.

Like the golf course(s) itself, the wine list will be full of unexpected discoveries. We will have a yearly event with a blind test to determine the best wine for the cheapest cost.

This encourages the kind of thrift that keeps clubs financially healthy.

**********************************************

I haven't seen a lot of mention about local schools. Coaching golf is one of the great joys (and frustrations) of my life and the local squad will have absolute access at any time during the season, including all practice facilities.

One the the more galling things about the modern era is the culture of selfishness that has posioned the local clubs in my area. Many of the clubs only allow the kids to play during official matches. . . . nice home course advantage, huh?

Papazian Hills will have a high school, college and even junior high team. Plus, we will have a junior team of our own to kick ass on the other clubs.

Once a month all the junior players will be required to assemble with Rich Spear (our Superintendent) and sand every single divot and fix every single imperfectly repaired ball mark on both courses. . . . . and that includes the coaches.

Final thought: Group Captain Pierce will have absolute powers, so anybody who comes off the street and respectfully asks to play - whether they are a member of a private club or not - can be granted access at the discretion of the Club Secretary.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The names of some so-called wines are a riot.  Screaming Eagle?  Opus 1?  Anything like Mad Dog 20/20 or Night Train   ?  

Of course, I should talk.  There was a time in my youth when I thought Chateaubriand was a French wine.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Precisely my point Scott.

There are idoots out there who willingly pay 250 dollars a bottle for Screaming Eagle or Opus 1. . . . and make a big show of it.

These are the kind of bozos who coughed up $425,000 dollars to join Los Altos Hills CC as some kind of twisted exercise in social climbing and demonstration of conspicuous wealth.

I do not want the slightest suggestion at Papazian Hills that one's financial status makes the slightest difference. The goal is for the Pizza Delivery Man to have a regular game with Pat Mucci or Tom Paul.

As a matter of fact, no cash accepted on the premises, with one exception.

We do away with signing chits altogether except for caddys. Members who buy balls, equipment, drinks or food are simply billed.

The club gets no cut on caddy fees. After the round, the member goes into the clubhouse, fills out a card and the caddy is immediately reimbursed in cash.

Sometimes kids need the dough for a date.    


  

[Scott_Burroughs]

It's interesting that your caddies will be "kids".  Of the (only) 7 rounds I've played with a caddie (all within the last 4 years and all but 2 in the past year), I'll bet not one of my caddies was younger than me (I'm 34).

[Dan Kelly]

Gib --

Thanks for spelling out that exception. I must confess that a different sort of transaction leapt to mind.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Nah, not just kids. I learned a lot from the older caddys when I was a kid. How to calculate yardages, where to stand, the right way to rake a bunker, how to read a racing form, where to buy cheap beer, how to play poker and whist . . . . I have no illusions any longer about the younger generation. We had a tough time getting new blood in our caddy yards at Olympic because kids today tend to be lazy.

Truth be told, I like a nice mix. At Piping Rock a couple weeks back I had a really nice kid - good player too - who was a terrific caddy. He figured out what club I ought to hit just watching me hit a few balls on the range.  

But then there is Timmonds at NGLA. Papazian Hills must have a few guys out there for so long they eventually become an institution. They can be crackers in the head - but that is part of the fun!  To have a really strange or unique character as your caddy.

Plus, I would sure like to have some girl's in the caddy shack also. Even if they were little and wanted to take a pull cart. I know when I was 12 years old, there were some trunks that were too big to drag around.

As a matter of fact, we will ban those enormous bags altogether. Caddys are not pack mules.

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