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Martin Del Vecchio

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Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« on: June 18, 2003, 08:32:52 AM »
I watched the last two rounds of the Open via TiVo, so I missed some of the commentary.  However...

What the heck was going on with the drives on 18?  It's a 460 yard hole, and many of the tee shots I saw were in the 350-yard range, leaving the players only a wedge to the green.  It looked like Tiger had a half-wedge on Sunday.  The commentators seemed to joke about it a lot, but I didn't hear anybody point this out as an example of how technology has changed golf.

Is this hole substantially downhill?  Was the wind helping that much?  The USGA didn't keep stats on the drives on 18, so I don't have any specifics.  They have stats for #1 (281.0) and for #6 (294.9); those numbers are for the entire field for all 4 days.

I also noticed that Furyk and Leaney had an awful lot of short-iron approach shots on the back 9.  To me, this is the weakness of either 1) the Olympia Fields course, or 2) technology.

For the US Open, at least, I want to see driver/4-iron on 18.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ken_Cotner

Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2003, 09:08:38 AM »

Quote

For the US Open, at least, I want to see driver/4-iron on 18.




Have to wait for Pebble or Torrey Pines.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BCrosby

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2003, 09:35:14 AM »
Intermurph -

Titlest says everything is ok so I wouldn't worry about it.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Martin Del Vecchio

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2003, 09:38:11 AM »
Here is the description of #18 from the USGA Open web site:

462 yards, par 4
Another big par 4 played into the wind on most days. The tee shot must split two fairway bunkers, leaving a mid-to-long iron into the huge, sloping green. The best play here is a drive between the two fairway bunkers that lands short of the third bunker. The green itself is the most sinister on the golf course with tough-to-read right-to-left and back-to-front breaks. Even the best players in the world will three putt this green from time to time. This hole will provide a memorable conclusion to four days of intense competition.

So 462 yards into the wind, mid-to-long-iron, to a sinister green; that's what I would like to see.  Could the wind direction and strength been such a huge factor?

I guess the Strata ball goes as far as the Titleist, but has the 18th-hole 3-putt built in.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Pazin

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2003, 09:41:23 AM »
I think our native Chicagoans on board have indicated that the normal prevailing wind was nowhere to be found & many of the brutes played downwind instead.

Not that wind ever helps me hit a drive 350....

Bob Crosby, that is one extremely funny line - I almost spit my drink out onto my computer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Chris Pike

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2003, 09:55:56 AM »
The drives on 18 were ridiculous!  I noticed that Jonathan Byrd (294.7) hit his drive 380+ yards ???  His ball literally bounced and rolled 80+ yards.  I think the USGA/PGA has really lost touch as far as tightly shaved fairways go.  They've spent so much time distracted by testing drivers that they forget to let the fairway grow a little bit.  The only true technology that's hurting the game can be found in the John Deere factory ;D
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"Golf is a game in which you yell Fore, shoot six and write down five."  -Paul Harvey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2003, 10:17:58 AM »
cdpike,

I thought that this website advocated fast and firm conditions.  Shouldn't you applaud the USGA and Olympia Fields for achieving these results ?

I've been away for a while, attending the TEPaul Shorthand School,  classes are usually reserved for stenographers and court reporters, but I got in as a special exception because I know Wayne Morrisson.

Maybe there's been a change in PHILOSOPHY in my abscence.

Are you advocating softer, slower conditions ?
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Martin Del Vecchio

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2003, 10:46:23 AM »
For the PGA Tour, at least, the argument I have heard in favor of fast, firm fairways goes like this:  soggy fairways favor the long hitter, since their drives land and stop quickly, and are less likely to roll into the rough.

It seems to me that, at least in terms of soft vs. firm fairways, straight holes favor the longer hitters more, while doglegs favor the longer hitters less.

Nothing favors the short hitter.  I didn't say the accurate hitter; just the short hitter.

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Jamie_Duffner

Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2003, 11:01:57 AM »
Pat - I agree with you. I happen to think that if you achieve fast and firm conditions, then you risk a guy who can stripe a drive down a 25 yard wide fairway hitting it 350.  I'm ok with that.  At the British Open we see guys hitting 2 irons 280 due to the firm conditions and of course the wind, so it shouldn't be any different at the US Open.
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Chris Pike

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2003, 11:26:25 AM »
I'm certainly an advocate fast and firm conditions, especially if I'm playing a course that has them.  Unfortunately, I live in soggy,saturated New England where playing from the "tips" means something.  I haven't gotten a decent roll after a tee shot all season!  I guess I'm just jealous  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is a game in which you yell Fore, shoot six and write down five."  -Paul Harvey

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2003, 11:52:29 AM »
Hey cdpike, if you want roll in New England these days, you can play The Ranch.  Your drive on #9 is guaranteed to roll a lot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Moore

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2003, 11:59:59 AM »
Mr. Mucci -

You are misleading the newcomers and misrepresenting Mr. Morrissett by indicating that this site advocates anything other than frank discourse.

If you were referring to the general preferences of the participants, I think you may be correct, although the more subtle preference for the maximization of strategic options via "maintenance meld" is gaining currency.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Chris Pike

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2003, 12:24:13 PM »
Intermurph:

The 9th and the 16th!  Played the Ranch a few weeks ago, so I guess my previous statement about no roll has to be amended.  If I couldn't get any roll on holes named "Glacier" and "Ski Hill", then I guess I would have no business being on a golf course.  Thanks for reminding me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is a game in which you yell Fore, shoot six and write down five."  -Paul Harvey

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2003, 12:37:54 PM »
We'll have to check with Michael Moore for a frost report, but I remember several similar holes at Belgrade Lakes and Sugarloaf from my trip to Maine last year.

Seriously, though, I have had my fill of drives that end up 6 inches behind the ball mark in the fairway, covered in wet mud.  I played the Ranch on Saturday, June 14, and several of the tees were 100% casual water.

Enough!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2003, 01:05:23 PM »
It was really a sad sight to see!

#9 and #18 are both brawny par 4's (496 and 460) and they both played downwind due to a breeze coming from the opposite direction than is normal for this time of year.  The bunkers were meaningless under these circumstances.  In fact, many of the players were hitting it to or over the crosswalks put in place for spectator movement!  This fact really tells you something because the USGA is usually very careful about placement of crosswalks in places where no one will hit the ball!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2003, 01:17:23 PM »
Michael Moore,

Which Mr. Morrissett ?

There are several of them.

And, Ran wasn't the only Morrissett involved with setting up this site.  Were you aware of that ?

I was referencing those that participate on the site, and stand by my statement.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Moore

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2003, 01:29:59 PM »
Mr. Mucci -

Ran.

Yes.

This site is presented by Ran Morrissett.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2003, 01:52:08 PM »
Michael Moore,

I see that you know very little about this website and its beginings.

Ran Morrissett was a schill or a dummy for the real guiding lights behind the establishment of this website.

To this day, he remains the dummy behind the site, fronting for the real powers in the Morrisset families, people who actually know something about golf and golf course architecture.

He recently returned from a family outing near Kohler, Wisconsin, where he received his instructions for the summer postings.  You don't seriously think that all of the ideas and posts he makes are his own, do you ?

If you want to learn about GCA, speak to his wife, sister-in-law, brother or father and you'll gain a true understanding of the real creative minds behind this website.

The only golf course he really likes is Innescrone, for reasons that I won't go into, but, courses like Plainfield, Hollywood, The Medalist, Old Marsh, Boca Rio, Pine Tree and Garden City Golf Club all leave him with an empty feeling.

What does that tell you about the man.
Does that sound like a man who knows anything about golf course architecture ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2003, 03:44:56 PM »
This thread could be called "drives at any high end course where HOC's are taken to ridiculous levels".

IMO, firm and fast has less to do with mowing heights than it does water management. Balls bounce and roll because of soil conditions, then are accentuated by low mowing heights. Remember a few years ago when the fairways of a major were walk-mowed? Whats the point? Turn the water off, let a few brown spots develope, and the nonsensical mowing heights can be a thing of the past...or can it? We rarely accept anything other than green and super short as being a good condition....if we're honest about it.

Good equipment, good golfers, and courses with no grass on them are going to make for longer drives and shorter approach shots. Raise the mowers and dry out the courses!

I hope this post makes sense, even though it doesn't insult or attack someone personally.....

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2003, 04:02:23 AM »
JHancock,

Fairways with that brown-yellow-green tinge to them seem to provide the best playing conditions.

It's tough to turn the water off in the northeast this spring.

If you have any connections in this area, please utilize them and stop the rain !

Ran Morrissett,

When you return from your Eastern Long Island trip, you can either confirm or refute my statements, or have whoever posts under your name confirm same.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2003, 07:47:28 PM »
Pat,

I have some family in Philly...and have heard the horror stories.

I feel for the golfers and supers who haven't caught a break from the wet weather. I just got in from walking 22 holes, and the conditions are as good as we ever get..still green, but drying quick....firm greens, lots of bounces...just an absolute joy. If it hadn't got dark, we might still be playing! (Especially after finishing birdie/eagle! :)....)

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Drives on 18 at Olympia Fields
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2003, 11:02:13 PM »
Ran,

I know that you are now safely back home.

Have I misrepresented anything on this thread ?  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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