[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Huckaby,

I have old Tommy Armour IMGT, IMG and other blade putters that I used for decades.  I still putt well with them from "distance"

While I used to make almost everything from 5 feet and in, there was a time when I was 50-50 from 18 inches.

So, I found a putter that seemed to work well from 5 feet and in, but, I didn't have the same feel for longer putts with it.

Enter my two putter system

Now, I'm putting better from 5 feet and in and I've adapted to longer putts with the same putter.

So, for now, I'm back to one putter.

But, I still carry a 2 and 3 iron and only one wood, my 3-wood.

I tend to be a traditionalist.

Excellent. 
And a traditionalist you are... but only to a certain extent.  No pure traditionalist would ever think of carrying two putters.
 

[JSlonis]

Thank God no one has ever won a major using a long putter.

Why?  Because they would then be banned? 

If that's the case, I hope no one uses a long putter to win a major as well.

I really don't know why guys have a problem with the long putter...

* They are currently legal to use.
* Everyone is allowed to use one

If it was such a HUGE advantage, why aren't more of the best players playing them?  You would think that if a player was more talented, and the long putter was so easy to use, that same player would have it in the bag.  These pro's play for a ton of $$, don't you think they'd want every advantage possible?

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

It certainly takes it the extreme, but then again, we've seen all kinds of crazy stances in golf up to and including the croquet.

I have a buddy who got so desperate he used to grip way down on the shaft and almost had his short putter jammed in his chest. Even Jack N used to have quite the crouch as he lined up his putts. 

I think when we start getting around to banning how people swing the club its a slippery slope and next thing you know Furyk's swing is banned because its one that only a mother could love!!  Perhaps a bit extreme but thats what GCA is about right?  Taking things to thier illogical conclusion? 

I do think Tom D has it right for what its worth.  Guys who have to use these are rarely tearing it up and they aren't gaining anything.  Being a good putter myself I know I never mind seeing someone use the broom, and if anything I feel pity....in a good way. 

Now if we can just invent something to help me with my horrible tee shots!!! 

Kalen,

I have no problem with different swings (i.e. Furyk, Tommy Gainey, etc.).  I don't think using a long putter is a stroke, it's a brush, IMO.  With no other club is there such a variance in length as the putter.  While it is true that generally poor putters resort to it, that doesn't mean it's ok.  Why shouldn't poor drivers of the ball be allowed to put rockets on the ball?  That argument doesn't work for me.  By the way, that is my intellectual property so no one better try to steal that idea!

Remember, this is just opinion, but I think the "stroke" made with a long putter resembles nothing like a traditional "stroke".  While equipment and golf courses have changed the one thing that has remained the same is the fact that a player makes a stroke from the side of the ball with the club in his hands unattached to his body.  I know the Rules, nor the definition of a stroke, don't address this but I feel it's something that is very un-golf like.  I feel it should be addressed and agree with Mr. Mucci that it is the continuous dumbing down of the skill level necessary to play that takes appeal away from the game. (Range Finders not included )


Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

How do you reconcile banning Sam Snead from putting his way and the permitted use of the long putter ?

[Jeff Fortson]

Thank God no one has ever won a major using a long putter.

Why?  Because they would then be banned? 

If that's the case, I hope no one uses a long putter to win a major as well.

I really don't know why guys have a problem with the long putter...

* They are currently legal to use.

* Everyone is allowed to use one

If it was such a HUGE advantage, why aren't more of the best players playing them?  You would think that if a player was more talented, and the long putter was so easy to use, that same player would have it in the bag.  These pro's play for a ton of $$, don't you think they'd want every advantage possible?

For the record, I have no problem with people using long putters... for now.  It is allowed under the Rules and therefore I don't look down on anyone using them.  However, I think it's an issue that should be addressed.  

I have seen plenty of guys continue their career, professionally, once they got the yips with the putter by using a long putter.  I have lost tournaments and been edged out of qualifiers by these guys.  Would they have made it or won tournaments had they not been able to use one?  Maybe.  I hold nothing against these guys as they were playing under the Rules.  But, I do think it takes the touch and nerves out of putting.  

My dad has the chip-yips.....  BAD.  REAL BAD.  He is a 1 handicap and I cringe every time I see him try to chip.  He now putts from everywhere.  I mean EVERYWHERE!  Rough, short-sided, 30 yards out, you name it.  Should he be entitled to create a club that somehow lets him take his nerves and touch out of chipping while making a very untraditional stroke?  I think not.  It's against the Spirit of the Game, IMO.

Jeff F.

[Dean Stokes]

OK, TomH, F you!!

...On the 2 putter thing, that is..

You want logic?  Ok, I'll give it tou you.

In the entire history of the game, the vast majority of all B + I advancements were not legal before they were invented. Rather, they were radical departures from the "status quo".

The long putter is no differrent. It's a radical departute in length, but in no other aspect.

The fact that it's purportedly easier to anchor to the body has yet to be proven. In point of FACT, it isn't.

I can just as easily anchor a sand wedge to my body as a long putter. Actually, (and again) in point of fact, it's actually easier to amchor than a long putter because it's anchorable to more parts of the body that the long putter.

So the real issue here isn't the implement itself. It's how it's used.

And if we're going to start banning how implements are used, well then:

1.  I'm banning Gib's swing immediately

2. Same with Shelly Solow's

And the same with:

3.  Charles Barkley

4.  John Daly

5.  Arnie

6. You


7. Me

The fact that each of us doesn't anchor the club is IRRELEVENT.

There's no rule of golf against that.

NOR HAS THERE EVER BEEN!!

Noe should there ever be.

Get the ball in the hole. Far and sure. That's all it's ever been about.

And that's all it should ever be about.

There's a HUGE difference between B and I that improves EVERYBODY's game and B and I that improves SOME people's games

The latter should be banned; the former should not be.
   

Shivas, did I just read you correctly? "the latter should be banned"- an implement that improves SOME peoples games (  NOT everyones games)? Would that be the long putter??

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Desperate men think of desperate measures.

When I played with you, Ran, Neil, Bob and the others my old Tommy Armour blade was in fine form.

My real putting troubles stem from breaking my wrist playing basketball a few years ago, and then, while trying to rehab it and play golf, I became very wristy at impact, versus my old straight armed putting stroke.

If I could put my right wrist back in a cast my putting would surely get better, but, my long game would suffer.

[Tim Bert]

My dad has the chip-yips.....  BAD.  REAL BAD.  He is a 1 handicap and I cringe every time I see him try to chip.  He now putts from everywhere.  I mean EVERYWHERE!  Rough, short-sided, 30 yards out, you name it.  Should he be entitled to create a club that somehow lets him take his nerves and touch out of chipping while making a very untraditional stroke?  I think not.  It's against the Spirit of the Game, IMO.

Jeff F.

Odyssey Putter Wedge ought to do the trick for your dad!

Actually, they should consider making the long-shafted Odyssey Putter Wedge.

Shivas - Would that violate the spirit?  Long-shaft for easy anchoring.  The convenience of the putting alignment aids.  The ball pops off and rolls like a putter with a little loft.  The hybrid-lie base of the club without the hot face.  The loft of a 7-iron.

[Mike McGuire]

The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether.  If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.

Putting croquet style and sidesadle is almost exactly the same. Its easy to demonstrate. Set up and  swing a putter putt croquet style....now simply move your right foot next to your left and repeat. Virtually no difference.

It is a true pendulum stroke...it's legal...and i'm surprised its not used by tour pros

[JohnV]

I don't have a long putter, though I do have a 50 inch 7 iron that I use when taking a drop.  Don't use it for much else, but sure does get me away from most pine trees when taking an unplayable.

CPS

Clint, I hope you don't have any club other than a putter that is over 48 inches, which is the maximum for all clubs other than the putter.

As a quick look through Jefferey Ellis' book The Golf Club will show, there really is nothing new in golf club design.  Every kind of club you can think of has already been invented and either approved or banned over the years by the USGA and R&A.  While his book doesn't talk about shaft length, concentrating more on the club heads, I'm sure that long putters were around back at the turn of the 20th century.

I wrote in another thread that I'm not so concerned about the length of the putter, but I would like to see the bottom of putters be required to be flat and maintain the 10 degree angle with the shaft.  The \_/ shaped bottom does allow the user of a long putter to defeat that 10 degree angle and achieve more of a pendulum stroke.

[C. Squier]

I don't have a long putter, though I do have a 50 inch 7 iron that I use when taking a drop.  Don't use it for much else, but sure does get me away from most pine trees when taking an unplayable.

CPS

Clint, I hope you don't have any club other than a putter that is over 48 inches, which is the maximum for all clubs other than the putter.

As a quick look through Jefferey Ellis' book The Golf Club will show, there really is nothing new in golf club design.  Every kind of club you can think of has already been invented and either approved or banned over the years by the USGA and R&A.  While his book doesn't talk about shaft length, concentrating more on the club heads, I'm sure that long putters were around back at the turn of the 20th century.

I wrote in another thread that I'm not so concerned about the length of the putter, but I would like to see the bottom of putters be required to be flat and maintain the 10 degree angle with the shaft.  The \_/ shaped bottom does allow the user of a long putter to defeat that 10 degree angle and achieve more of a pendulum stroke.

Sadly, I was bluffing

The future of further distances is held in the launch height / spin rate ratio generated by new shaft technology, IMO.  It also has the greatest chance to screw up a golfer because a low spinning shaft in the wrong hands will decrease distance in a big way.  Great time to be a good clubfitter.

Clint

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I understand, believe me I do.  Desparate times call for desparate measures, for sure.  Just explain that to our friend shivas, who claims that using two putters is no sign of desparation, but rather the best and most proper way to play this game.

Shivas:

Much better.  You're up to B+.  But you still go a LONG way trying to convince us - and I believe yourself - of a consistency here.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

I think the real solution would be just to make a ruling that no club in the bag can be longer than 44 inches.  That would take care of the longest putters AND the long drivers at the same time.  Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the distance increase from new drivers is based on the longer shafts.

[Jeff Fortson]

I think the real solution would be just to make a ruling that no club in the bag can be longer than 44 inches.  That would take care of the longest putters AND the long drivers at the same time.  Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the distance increase from new drivers is based on the longer shafts.

I think this is in the ballpark of taking care of the issue.  45 inches is probably more realistic but I would go to 44 in a second as my driver is 44.


Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

Oh, stop.

Another "we are the world", "one size fits all", "we're all the same" rule?

To hell with Bill Laimbeer and Randy Johnson .... let them eat cake.

Since when did tall guys join rich guys as the only people against whom discrimination is OK?   

Uh... Shivas...

I'm 6'3".

I guess I'm a self-loathing, legislating liberal right?


Jeff F.

[JSlonis]

JSlonis,

How do you reconcile banning Sam Snead from putting his way and the permitted use of the long putter ?

Pat,

Honestly I've never thought about reconciling it or even having to.  Wasn't Snead's original method banned because of him straddling the line of the putt? 

Whatever the past history is it is.  During my time, the long putter has been allowed and I have been using it.  Until they tell me I can't, I'll continue to use it.  I've messed around with the Heavy Putter and I can actually make a decent stroke with that method, so if need be, I have something to fall back on.

[Kirk Gill]

[quote author=Jim If it was such a HUGE advantage, why aren't more of the best players playing them?  You would think that if a player was more talented, and the long putter was so easy to use, that same player would have it in the bag.  These pro's play for a ton of $$, don't you think they'd want every advantage possible?

I can't see that the use of the long putter gives someone an advantage over a golfer that doesn't use one, generally speaking. I don't know that most people would putt better using one than they do using a conventional stroke.

The whole purpose of that club is to allow folks that can't putt well using a conventional stroke another option to try, to see if they're able to putt better using that method. And in my mind, anchoring the end of the club against your body and swinging the club from there is not a golf stroke. If you can't putt very well using a convential stroke then, for my money, you're just not a very good putter. Just like a lot of other golfers aren't good iron players, or just aren't good out of the sand, etc. Of course, clubmakers have helped out a lot of those folks with new drivers and cavity-backs and space-age materials and the like. But the long putter isn't a technological advance, it's a reworking of a golf stroke into something else. It's not just holding a club in your hands and hitting a ball. It's different.

But long putters ARE legal, according to the rulemakers, and so anyone can use them if it helps their game. I'm not big on calling for bans, or the like. I just don't like long putters, personally. But it's a Big World out there......

[Kirk Gill]

Shivas - well reasoned, well-written, well thought-out post.

I can't disagree with a thing you said.


but I still wouldn't use one of those long putters, and one of those anchored strokes, for the reasons I mentioned above. And you're of course correct about the weird strokes you sometimes have to make to get out of a jam. I just haven't yet gotten to the point where my ball being on the green strikes me as a jam I need to get out of by using such a weird stroke. I get where you're coming from, though, and can't really argue with your logic.

And even though my brand new GolfClubAtlas mini golf bag comes with a little tool on it to allow me to create a cheater line on my golf ball, I don't use that either !

[Tom Huckaby]

OK, so screw it.  You've sold me.  I have no problem with anchoring the club against the body.

But what say you about these two issues:

a) Long putters are wholly unnatural.  Split grips are illegal, and many other oddly shaped clubs are declared illegal, and there has always been a spirit about what clubs should and shouldn't be.  Do you really find a long putter to be in the same spirit as a normal club used in the normal spirit of the game?  I sure don't.

b) Long putters are dorky as hell and you might as well wear bermuda shorts and long socks or lederhausen, topped with a rakish beret.  You give the same effect.

 

[Peter Pallotta]

"There are lots of ways to make a stroke under the rules of golf that don't constitute what most of us would consider a normal stroke."

So Shivas - do I understand you correctly in your defence of the long putter, i.e. that the rules of golf are not always synonymous with the spirit of the game, nor need they be?

Peter

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

No surprise on either front.  But you keep telling yourself that results are ALL that it's about.  Franklin I'msure enjoyed the result but also understood it occurred via dorkiness.

This is all also rather odd to hear from someone who rants against putter covers and other accessories, but well... consistency has never been your forte'.

Show me a guy who uses a long putter and I'll show you a desparate man who in his heart of hearts sure wishes he didn't.  

But we've covered all this before.

 

[Kalen Braley]

See, here's the thing:

There are lots of ways to make a stroke under the rules of golf that don't constitute what most of us would consider a normal stroke.


I mentioned putting the club behind your back and swinging with the butt end of the club lodged between your butt cheeks.

Nothing illegal about that.

You can chop a ball lefty backwards from up against a tree.

Nothing illegal about that.

You can even anchor a club against your arm or chest and try to hit a driver one-handed if you want.

Nothing illegal about that.

There's nothing illegal about putting your arm way down the shaft of a wedge and chipping Bernard Langer-style the way he used to affix the putter against his left arm with his right hand.

Hell, you can even try to do that with a driver if you're so inclined.

A gymnast could do a handstand, bending over backwards, picking up the club and lodging it between her toes, and making the stroke with her feet.

In fact, there's nothing illegal about literally letting go of the club in the downdwing just before impact, in essence, throwing the clubhead at the ball!

Each of these is a legal stroke. 

So what I don't get is why all the relatively-recent hullabaloo in the last decade about anchoring the clubhead against the chest or chin when putting?

You can do that any time you want to through the green with any club in the bag. 

Moreover, it's not the only wierd stoke that doesn't strike most people as a customary stroke.

Next time you're up against a tree, thinking about hitting a lefty, one handed backhanded through your legs shot off one knee (because that's the only shot you've got) to get the ball back in the fairway, consider whether it satisfies your sensibilities as a traditional stroke...

Shivas,

Can't think of a better way to say it than that.  It really is different strokes for different folks.

This thread is D-U-N....game, set, and match with this post!

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen, please.  One would think you're a shivas butt-buddy.

Yes, he addressed that anchoring the club isn't against the rules, and really shouldn't be.  I can accept and live with that.

But he does not address his inconsitencies, nor the very well known and accepted dorkiness issues.  Oh sure this thread can be D-U-N if one either wants to kiss shivas' ass or just address one part of whether it should or shouldn't be made illegal... but it remains wide open as to shivas' lack of consistency and whether said clubs really do conform to the spirit of how the game ought to be played.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom please....

I can point out at least half a dozen logical fallacies in your last post alone.  They're all right here. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I've disagreed with Shivas on plenty of his crazy ideas up to and including the notorious Ted Robinson being one of the greatest archies of all time.

If calling me a butt-buddy makes you feel better, then thats not a problem.    I'm secure with my manhood!  But i'm not sure how that helps your arguement.  Perhaps you need to take it a step further and call me a pedophile.  That'll really convince everyone that I'm wrong and your right. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Look, it was meant to be primarily in jest. 

BUT...I remain FAR from convinced that the use of the long putter is in line with the spirit of what golf should be.  His post may have convinced you.  All it convinced me is that anchoring the club is not contrary to such.  Just remember that's only one part of this.

Only a butt-buddy would take that post as closing this issue.  So one either lives with the title or realizes that he closed just one part of it... if he did that.

TH

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