[Tony Petersen]

Matt... Wow, someone had Wheaties for breakfast   Listen, any time you end up in AZ, let me know & we can get a game at Desert Mountain Outlaw. You can even pay the guest fee...

You see, I agree with you guys that the system is flawed. It's based on potential, thus the 96% of the average of the low-10 differentials. Which are based on rating & slope. Which are based on length, hazards, difficulty of play for both a scratch & a not so scratch player, etc. I have spoken with Kevin O'Connor, Dir. of Handi. USGA many times in a previous profession as it is not perfect, and doesn't travel well. I have gotten into more than a few threads on GCA.com to the same effect. Still, engineers from NASA came up with the equations (seriously, cliches aside) so there must be something there. Kind of like Democracy. Not perfect, but...

The bottom line is that there is a reason that most tournaments require an USGA index to compete. It's so everyone is on the same page, so you are comparing apples to apples...  If not, those of us with indexes that tend to trend low due to the questionable "accuracy" of the system end up saying that we are a 6 on the tee when asked. Then Matt says he's a 10 'cause that's what he thinks it should be. Then Matts takes our money due to the 4 extra pops that Matt got with his handicap that he thinks he should have. And yes, Matt, I know that those 4 extra pops didn't matter cause you bombed it down the middle of the fairway all frickin day

[Matt Varney]

Art,

So what is your handicap? Can you back it up?

You are just the kind of guy I want to play straight up based on handicap.  I will play to mine and you play to your USGA index and we will see who wins in a match for $500.  This is the kicker - we play at a neutral site not your home course or my home course.  Pick the place?

[Matt Varney]

Tony,

I know where your coming from that is my point exactly.  I would rather people be honest about their abilities not some number on a card and play the game.  I don't want to give or receive strokes based on system that is flawed.  I just want the game to be accurate.

If I get a chance to get to AZ this year we will play and will pay the guest fee.

[Tony Petersen]

But Matt, that's the problem. No one would be honest. I can say for a fact that I have seen CEO's for Fortune 500 companies blatantly sandbag their indexes to get more pops and thus win the 5th Flight, Net. Seriously. That's why you need to have an equation. Some way to quantify. Thus, the USGA 

[Eric Smith]

Golf is founded on honor, integrity and traditions.

Yes, and whether you like the current system or not, it ONLY works if everyone uses it with honor and integrity.  People like you who choose not to use it are cheating.  The current system is fair as long as everyone uses it as designed (which requires honor and integrity).

That's twice now someone has used the word cheating and aimed it at Matt.  On what page of the 2008 USGA Rules of Golf does it say if you don't have a GHIN handicap and you play golf against others in a match you are cheating?  Guess you better get that NASA formula down Matt.

Art, do you play a match against Matt if he guesses better, e.g. lower, what his hcp should be?  I mean really, it's only a guess unless you've got an official GHIN right?

[Matt Varney]

I have a very close friend that has made tons of money and he told me this once and I will never ever forget it "Before I ever finalize a business deal I take the guys I am going to be working with to play golf with me.  In one round of golf I can see how they conduct themselves and how they play by the rules."

Honor, Integrity, Character

This must be the reason why people call me all the time to play with them.  I play by the rules and I don't cheat screw the damn handicap index.  Did you have fun playing and did you post an honest score? 

[Glenn Spencer]

I know that every once in a while that people have a terrible round and that it does not reflect what their handicap is or what they normally shoot.  However, I would say 9 out of 10 times when a guy tells me he is a 7 or 8 handicap then proceeds to slice balls into no man's land and barely breaks 100 I find it humorous.  I am by no means a great golfer, about an 18 handicap.  I just wonder if the system is flawed or the majority of guys don't want to actually admit that golf is no easy game and breaking 90 is often difficult when mulligans are not taken on 5 holes and the ball is not picked up within 3 feet of the cup.

you have obv


iously never belonged to a private club, where handicaps are both accurate and reflective of ability.  There are always a few vanity handicaps, but far more prevalent are sandbaggers who make sure their handicaps are higher than they should be so they can win in net tournaments

Mike, which private club are you a member at? I have worked as an assistant pro and a caddie at 6 or 7 private clubs here. That means I have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of golfers in my twelve years in the States. I would say that in a strokeplay situation ( whick is extremely rare) - at least 80% of private club golfers could not play to their handicap on a regular basis. As I said earlier, I have witnessed this time and time again and it baffles me how somebody can give themselves a 7 handicap when there is no way on earth they can break 90. Maybe you can explain.

I've belonged to the following private clubs:
-Lake Merced GC
-San Jose GC
-Palo Alto Hills GC
-Berkeley Hills GC

Lake Merced has a well earned reputation as a tough track, just look at the recent qualifying scores at the Sectional Open Qualifier with pins that were in much easier locations than for the club championship.

I don't understand the 'give themselves a handicap' comment.  You post your scores and your handicap is calculated.  I have always played in games where that either gave putts 'inside the leather' or not at all.  No mulligans, no bending the rules, balls played down except when the course was really wet and soppy.  I have played with fellow members who have qualified for US Senior Amateurs and Mid Amateurs as well as the San Francisco City Championship.  I'm far from a great player but, as a 7, feel like I could almost always beat a 10 like a drum if there were no strokes involved.  Personally, I think all scores should be counted rather than throwing out the 10 worst ones but the system is the system.  I've personally never seen someone with a 7 handicap look like anything but a decent golfer with a solid golf swing, I guess we play in different golf universes.

I believe the old lady still holds the record for highest cut in the US Junior (1990) at 163. I knew a guy that played in it and said it was beyond difficult.

[Richard Boult]

Art,

So what is your handicap? Can you back it up?

You are just the kind of guy I want to play straight up based on handicap.  I will play to mine and you play to your USGA index and we will see who wins in a match for $500.  This is the kicker - we play at a neutral site not your home course or my home course.  Pick the place?

Yes, you'd obviously do well against anyone who maintains an accurate index!  That's my point.  Your manufactured handicap isn't fair to those of us who play by the rules.

I'm a 2.5 and have been playing 3 years.  The course I play the most often is rated 70.7/135.  If I used YOUR math, I'd be a 6, because my average score over the last 20 rounds is 77.25 (played mostly on a course that plays to par 71).

I'll play you anytime, anywhere and give you 4 strokes (my flawed 6 to your flawed 10).

[Tony Petersen]

Seriously, this thread is gettin waaaay off base. Bottom line is if you don't carry an USGA handicap index (not GHIN, GHIN is just one of a number of official providers) then you don't carry an official index. No big deal unless you want to compete & play tournaments. Then, it's pretty much a given that you need an official index or you play to scratch. Once again, there has to be equity, as well as a way to quantify. And, honestly, the USGA equations are really not difficult. You have a base rating, a base slope. You take your score. You end up with your potential playing ability based on 10 lowest of 20. In turn, you should shoot your index right around 20-25% of the time. Not everytime.

If I'm on the tee, playing with some guys that I don't know, and they want to play for money, I am always game. If they don't have an index, we play straight up. Or 6's. Or Vegas. Because, unlike Matt, here is the typical approach to "what's your index?" from those that don't carry an index, don't understand the system, etc. Well, let's see... Last week I shot this, and that, and my last 5 scores have been... but, I haven't really been playing all that much & my back has been flaring up so make me a... Been there. Done that. No thanks

[Richard Boult]

Golf is founded on honor, integrity and traditions.

Yes, and whether you like the current system or not, it ONLY works if everyone uses it with honor and integrity.  People like you who choose not to use it are cheating.  The current system is fair as long as everyone uses it as designed (which requires honor and integrity).

That's twice now someone has used the word cheating and aimed it at Matt.  On what page of the 2008 USGA Rules of Golf does it say if you don't have a GHIN handicap and you play golf against others in a match you are cheating?  Guess you better get that NASA formula down Matt.

Art, do you play a match against Matt if he guesses better, e.g. lower, what his hcp should be?  I mean really, it's only a guess unless you've got an official GHIN right?

Eric, it's not a guess... you can do the math yourself.  You can get the index for the score you shoot based on the course's slope and rating.  Take the sum of your best 10 indexes from your last 20 rounds, divide by 10, then multiply by .96.  Then when you bet someone who DOES have a GHIN handicap, you won't be taking advantage of him or her (not using the cheating word).

It's not necessary to do any of this if you don't compete in tournaments or don't bet money against people who ARE using a valid GHIN handicap. If you want to bet and don't maintain a handicap, play heads up... no strokes.

[Tony Petersen]

It's not necessary to do any of this if you don't compete in tournaments or don't bet money against people who ARE using a valid GHIN handicap. If you want to bet and don't maintain a handicap, play heads up... no strokes.

And that, my friends, is the core of the issue. You can't have your cake & eat it too. If you carry an index, you get pops. If you don't carry an index, no pops. We play straight up

And again, it's a USGA handicap. GHIN is just one of many providers i.e. EZ Links (AZ, Chicago, etc.), Handinet (Michigan, etc.)...

[Matt Varney]

Art,

A couple questions for you -

Where do you live?
What tees do you play from?
How much you want to play for?
What is the distance and slope for your home course?

I would love to see the outcome of this match just to prove my theory right.  See your a 2.5 but if you say your giving me 4 strokes based on those scores.  That is not a cheating 6 for you that is an average of your scores so it is accurate # not based on potential to shoot a lower score.  Do you honestly feel good about yourself and your handicap index when you tell someone you are 2.5 then card a 78?

I think you would be suprised how close this match would be and I might even beat you depending on how long you want to play the course and how tough it is for this match.

[Tony Petersen]

Do you honestly feel good about yourself and your handicap index when you tell someone you are 2.5 then card a 78?

I have a feeling that Art typically plays with guys that carry an index, and thus UNDERSTAND exactly what that USGA Handicap Index denotes. Therefore, they would understand that a 78 (depending on the rating) for a 2.5 is a decent afternoon. Nothing special. But not a bad day.

You guys are trying to change the definition of what a handicap index is. Good luck with that one. Just give the USGA a call and tell them what you think... 

[Eric Smith]

Eric, it's not a guess... you can do the math yourself.  You can get the index for the score you shoot based on the course's slope and rating.  The the sum of your best 10 indexes from your last 20 rounds, divide by 10, then multiply by .96.  Then when you bet someone who DOES have a GHIN handicap, you won't be taking advantage of him or her (not using the cheating word).

Art:
Fair enough.  BTW, way to go carrying a 3 hcp in three years of playing the game!  Have you had a regular instructor from the start?  I've played since I was 9, (I'm 38) and got down to maybe a 6 when I was in my early 20's, now inching back up to a comfortable 10, official USGA of course!

[Andrew Summerell]

How many of you guys who play & hold handicaps in America hand in cards from non tournament play ?

Most of the golf I have played in America has been at private clubs & it has always surprised me how few member tournaments American clubs have.

In Australia, generally only cards from tournaments are counted towards a player’s handicap, & as has been said before, most clubs in Australia & the U.K. have competitions at least twice (& quite often more) a week.

This wouldn’t fix the entire problem, but it may be a step in the right direction. It would require clubs to have more member tournaments as well as require golfers to have no mulligan or gimmes.


BTW, I have been playing golf for 30 years, yet had never heard of the term ‘mulligan’ until my first golfing trip to America about 15 years ago.

[Steve Kline]

Golf in America is already slow enough. If you made everyone play a tournament with official rules they might not ever finish. In our member-guest this weekend there groups (6th flight) that were taking over 3 hours for nine holes and it was two man teams, one net best ball match pay. Insane.

Anyway the only fair system is to have handicaps that are based on individual stroke play tournaments only. End of story. That eliminates vanity handicaps and sandbaggers. Because if you want to win you have to play your best. The sandbagger would have to throw a bunch of tournaments to pad his handicap.  And the vanity handicap would disappear real quick.

[Jason Topp]

Matt

If there are a bunch of vanity handicaps, who cares?  They are just hurting themselves.

I agree that there are a alot of vanity handicaps under the US system.  I think the reasons are:

1. Not playing by the rules
2.  Claiming you handicap is your index
3.  Maximum scores for adjustment purposes
4.   Not holing out putts
5.  Playing the same course with the same people all of the time
6.  Playing without tournament pressure

That said - If you regularly shoot 80-82 from the tips of a 7000 yard course in tournaments, your index is probably around a 3 handicap based on the results of tournaments I play in. 

Also - my index was 5.2 a few weeks ago and I am struggling to break 90 right now. I'm up to 6.8 and climbing fast.

[Mike Golden]

basically all this thread shows is how arrogant certain posters are about themselves and their golf games.  Making comments like 'give me strokes and I'll probably kick your ass with $500 on the line' is so far outside my own experience and perspective I'm just wasting my time posting anything further.  If you think that handicaps are bullshit then just play every match even up, do you have the balls for that?  Just show up for the Dixie Cup at World Woods, announce you will play anyone even up because the handicap system is flawed and everyone with a lower handicap can't play worth a crap anyway, and take any and all bets.  I fail to understand how money factors into golf anyway, if I want to bet serious money I'll go play Texas Holdem, Blackjack, or craps.

[Joe Bausch]

Where is the Pope of Slope, Dean Knuth, when we need him?!

I'm pretty confident the primary application of the USGA handicap system is to enable equitable match play.  If not, why is there 'equitable stroke control'?  Hence, all this discussion about what you should be shooting in stroke play off your index is just silly.

[Jason Topp]

Where is the Pope of Slope, Dean Knuth, when we need him?!

I'm pretty confident the primary application of the USGA handicap system is to enable equitable match play.  If not, why is there 'equitable stroke control'?  Hence, all this discussion about what you should be shooting in stroke play off your index is just silly.

http://www.popeofslope.com/

[Jason Topp]

Golf is founded on honor, integrity and traditions.

Yes, and whether you like the current system or not, it ONLY works if everyone uses it with honor and integrity.  People like you who choose not to use it are cheating.  The current system is fair as long as everyone uses it as designed (which requires honor and integrity).

That's twice now someone has used the word cheating and aimed it at Matt.  On what page of the 2008 USGA Rules of Golf does it say if you don't have a GHIN handicap and you play golf against others in a match you are cheating?  Guess you better get that NASA formula down Matt.

Art, do you play a match against Matt if he guesses better, e.g. lower, what his hcp should be?  I mean really, it's only a guess unless you've got an official GHIN right?

It is cheating to claim you are a 10, when, under the system in place, you are probably a 3-5.

One way to check this - On the home course GHIN computer, it gives an average score.

[Richard Boult]

Matt, this is hardly the place to continue this dialog. Contact me directly if you're serious about a match. I'm in California. And yes, I have no problem stating my handicap and shooting poor scores (and often do). It's golf!

Eric, thanks. I've actually only taken 1 lesson, started when I was 46. Reading Extraordinary Golf by Fred Shoemaker had the most influence on my improvement. It all boils down to trust.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

How well should you play?

Dean has the answer:

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap/articles/howwell.html

"The end result is you've got your USGA Handicap Index for better or for worse. Don't worry if you never seem to play to it on a given day. All golfers are in the same boat because USGA Handicap Indexes are based on a player's potential ability rather than the average of his scores."

I really don't understand your argument Matt at how not using the system makes you more honorable and full of integrity. Could you simply answer why you think using your "own" formula makes you more honorable or better than someone who follows the USGA Handicap rules, without challenging me or anyone else to a money game?

[Matt Varney]

My problem is not with you guys on GCA but a flawed USGA handicap index system that is not an accurate assessment of your playing ability.  This is my last post to this thread so lets bury the hatchet and be done with this issue it could go on and on forever.  We are never going to see eye-to-eye on this matter.

If I regularly shoot around 82 and I tell someone I am a 10 then I am honestly telling you that I consistently shoot 10 over on a par 72 course.  If my playing partners tell me they regularly shoot 75, 80 and 85 then I consider the first guy a 3, the second guy an 8 and the third guy at 13.  If we go out and play based on consistent average scores you would be suprised just how close matches are in stroke play or match play.

What happens usaully with most matches based on handicap index scores is that one or two guys are sandbagging and then smoke the other guys claiming they are just playing a great round.  Thus honor, integrity and character these are your friends not guys you lie to so you can win $50 off them.  If I shoot 77 I played a great round and I got lucky getting a few good bounces but I wasn't sandbagging I just played to my potential I guess that would be called using the USGA system.  If you can't regulary shoot the score then that is not your handicap.
 

[JLahrman]

My problem is not with you guys on GCA but a flawed USGA handicap index system that is not an accurate assessment of your playing ability.  This is my last post to this thread so lets bury the hatchet and be done with this issue it could go on and on forever.  We are never going to see eye-to-eye on this matter.

I think many people are seeing eye to eye with you about how a handicap should be defined, just not your approach to the problem.  Me included.  I would rather have my handicap be what I'm usually going to shoot rather than what I may shoot if I play well, which would make me go from an 8.5 to about a 12 or 13.  I don't think anyone is contesting that there are other ways a handicap can be calculated, what people are saying is that creating it through your own definition and formula is probably not the way to address the issue.

By your definition of a 10, there is almost no way I'm going to give you any shots and beat you.  But while your definition of a handicap is what I should shoot on average, what if I decided a handicap should be how high I have the potential to go on a bad day?  Not as good of a definition but it's plausible.  Now I'm going to go around telling everyone I'm a 16 or 17?

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