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Matthew Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2010, 11:35:13 PM »

Bill,

The access whoring did start a long time ago.  Now we see how voices of concern like mine went on deaf ears and now gca.com has turned into the Match.com for golfing whores.  Sure, some good posters still sprinkle in the good threads, but come on.  If you think my point that this site has gone from being about course architecture to accessing golf courses through members on here is "lame" I am ok with that.  

Jeff F.

Jeff,

I am a fairly new member, so feel free to take my views with a grain of salt. However, as many posters in your other thread have mentioned, the access whoring is not as obviously prevalent in the day to day public spaces of the DG as you are suggesting. To call this DG the Match.com for "golfing whores" is an insult to the large majority who have never sought access, and post on a myriad of other topics every day. Again, you were/are in a position that would draw attention from access seekers. I can understand how annoying and shallow that must feel, but so many other people are having different experiences via the DG. I would assume that the majority of the requests you received were via PM and email, am I right? Therefore, I can't agree with your blanket claim that the "site has gone from being about course architecture to accessing golf courses through members on here". For the vast majority of us, access whoring just isn't a part of the experience, but it is unfortunate that it is/was such a part of the experience for you...take care...


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2010, 11:48:44 PM »
I'll stay out of the topic at hand, but I wanted to note that I'm still friends with Ted Sturges, and just talked to him on Tuesday, as a matter of fact.  He'd gotten away from golf for a while after a divorce, but he remarried this spring and he is headed out to Bandon in October for the first time in a long time.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2010, 12:34:03 AM »
Jeff,
 
I also like the "old GCA guys". I got to meet and play golf with Gib P. in Bandon this year. He is a blast and I'm sure his posts were great. I know he lurks but I find it impossible to believe that he no longer posts because he does not know how to say no to an access whore! That is not the guy I met...

I never really buy stories about "the good old days" because such tales invariably involve a heavy dose of selective memory.  People remember the good and forget the bad, it is human nature. I spent two hours reading ten-year-old threads. Some were good, MANY were lame. There were many threads complaining about how far the ball travels today, calls for a rollback on the ball and equipment, etc. People complained about the scores pros were shooting on great courses, etc...all stuff we talk about today. In no way were the old discussions "architectually pure." In no way are there less good architecture discussions today. And today's posts often include GREAT photos of golf courses that many of us will never get to play. There were no such photos in the old threads I read,  so GCA.com is FAR better in that respect now.

What IS different is that the site is no longer brand new, and like your first true love, some things cannot be duplicated...So instead of complaining, start making some good posts relating to architecture. I really don't know your occupation and what happened with acess requests.

Bill,

Gib is a legend.  He is one of my favorite people on the planet.  I met him at the King's Putter II at Pasatiempo and he and I started to talk about the greatness of NGLA.  As we discussed in detail the holes Gib literally pulled out his pencil from the round and turned our conversation into a diagram on the table cloth to help explain what we were discussing to those that had never been there.  It was then and there that I knew GCA had attracted a group of people that "got it".  Gib and I both have similar situations in our personal lives and he directed me to some stuff that not only helped my family but changed our lives for the better.  I will forever be indebted to the man for his acts of kindness to me, a virtual stranger up until we simply talked about a golf course.

Look, I have never met many of the "new guys".  My comments aren't directed at individuals (except for my total incapability of understanding much of what Melvyn Morrow says and what I think is a squandered ability to use his family name).  I certainly don't think every single person on here is looking for access to golf courses.  However, to deny it's existence and its total infiltration of the site is blind.  It doesn't have to be public in the threads to be real.  I can't speak for Bob Huntley, but I can only imagine how many requests he has gotten over the years.  It shows you what kind of character he has to have been so gracious to so many people, even those that appealed to him unsolicited. 

My experience is different.  I was a golf pro at a high profile club.  People figured I could just wave a magic wand and get them out.  Sorry to say, that unless you were a PGA member or played with me, I couldn't do much for you (I say "you" in general terms).  I was working 50+ hours a week and teaching another 10+ on top of that and I literally had guys from GCA.com that I had never met asking me to make time on my days off so that they could play Riviera.  Now, you and many here weren't the culprits, nor does it really matter to most of you.  I'm ok with that.  But when I see threads that are pissing contests of what courses we have all played and the "light hearted" posts about how to get on at "such and such" country club, I start to question the motives of many and the overall direction of the site.  After hosting some of these people they didn't attempt to enlighten others of their experience in an educational sense on the DG which was always my hope.  I didn't want a public thank you, I wanted to see their opinions and experiences.  I believe that all levels of golfers can contribute to the betterment of course architecture if they understand not only the game in general, but their game as well.

There is no question there are still great threads and pictorials.  I am happy to see those continue.  I haven't even began to crack the nut of the "rater" fiasco of years back.  If you think my opinions are harsh on the access whoring you should dig up my feeling about the entitled "rater".  I have no problem with raters or the rating bodies per se, I have a problem with people begging others to make them raters so that they feel entitled to play free golf wherever they like.  Don't get me started on that one! 

I don't think all the guys I have mentioned don't contribute only because of "access whoring".  Actually, I was asking others to help me answer as to why the site has "jumped the shark"?  Maybe I am wrong.  Maybe it hasn't jumped.  My opinion is that it has in many ways.  I knew I would ruffle some feathers with the initial post.  I figured I would be calling out people I don't even know about this topic.  I hope it got their eye.  I am not trying to be the police of gca.com, I simply hope it survives.  And, by surviving I mean actually continuing to be relevant.  Fortunately, there are people like Jeff Brauer, Tom Doak, some great supers, Pat Mucci, Tom Paul, and many others I fail to mention that keep this DG going.  Like I said before, I have never claimed to be an authority on the subject.  I want to learn.  I love contributing when I can, but I learn nothing from people seeking to check off another Top 100 course from their list.


Jeff F.

#nowhitebelt

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2010, 12:49:55 AM »

Bill,

The access whoring did start a long time ago.  Now we see how voices of concern like mine went on deaf ears and now gca.com has turned into the Match.com for golfing whores.  Sure, some good posters still sprinkle in the good threads, but come on.  If you think my point that this site has gone from being about course architecture to accessing golf courses through members on here is "lame" I am ok with that.  

Jeff F.

Jeff,

I am a fairly new member, so feel free to take my views with a grain of salt. However, as many posters in your other thread have mentioned, the access whoring is not as obviously prevalent in the day to day public spaces of the DG as you are suggesting. To call this DG the Match.com for "golfing whores" is an insult to the large majority who have never sought access, and post on a myriad of other topics every day. Again, you were/are in a position that would draw attention from access seekers. I can understand how annoying and shallow that must feel, but so many other people are having different experiences via the DG. I would assume that the majority of the requests you received were via PM and email, am I right? Therefore, I can't agree with your blanket claim that the "site has gone from being about course architecture to accessing golf courses through members on here". For the vast majority of us, access whoring just isn't a part of the experience, but it is unfortunate that it is/was such a part of the experience for you...take care...



Sorry if you were insulted.  I certainly wasn't calling you out personally.  It's less of calling out individuals about the problem and more about bringing attention to the problem.  It exists.  You may not be part of it, but I just felt the urge to address it.  I certainly understand that many people on here don't use the site for it.

When was the last pictorial about the strategy of a hole?  Or, the reconstruction/restoration of a green complex?  I see a lot of ass shots which are all fine and dandy, but many of the threads are literally a circle jerk of what courses one has played.  Not all of them mind you, but many of them.

Like I have said before, I hope newer folks to this site are getting some great insight to a topic they love as I did years ago.  I just wish more threads were dedicated to the education of course architecture.  Maybe you get that from here.  If so, great and ignore me.  Sorry if I insulted you.

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2010, 08:59:41 AM »
Jeff Forston, reply #49, to Bill Brightly:

"...there are many people I enjoyed reading that left.  The likes of which you couldn't hope to replace."

"Now it is infiltrated by the likes of people one-upping each other with what courses they have shagged.  If you can't see that, then I really could care less what you think of my 'lame' observations."

Jeff Fortson, reply #54, to Bill Brightly:

"Sorry if you were insulted.  I certainly wasn't calling you out personally." (emphasis mine)


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2010, 09:02:33 AM »
Jeff,

You did not insult me in the least.

To answer your questions. the "last" pictorial about the strategy of a hole was posted yesterday, it discussses a Principal Nose bunker complex built by C and C. I dont know the course yet and I did not know that C and C built a PN complex, Follow the thread, we both may learn something.

I posted a photo last week of a hole at Hackensack (Banks) undergoing restoration and two weeks earlier I showed photos of an entire green re-building project: Saucon Valley, Weyhill course.

Your last post proves what I suspected: you have some sort of ax to grind with GCA.com. There are great threads on every page, including a current one by Tom Doak comparing the routing of great course being equivilant to a great concert, where he sometimes "throws the whole band" at a hole, so I posted pics of Pac Dunes #18 as an example.

So this tells me your purpose is to criticize and NOT to discusss architecture...So I am done with this thread, off to learn more about gca.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:20:28 AM by Bill Brightly »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2010, 10:57:14 AM »
Jeff, is it fair to say you've come out of those experiences with a very broad brush?

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2010, 11:46:52 AM »
Recently, I hosted a fellow GCAer who finally took me up on my invitation from a couple of years ago.  We had a really great day -- a ton of laughs.

A couple of days ago I got a package in the mail.  My wife and kids were in the kitchen when I came home from work and they were excited to hand it to me.  "Open it daddy!"  I thought it was from them, so I tore into it and opened it up.  Inside was a scarlet golf shirt with The Ohio State Buckeyes logo on it! ???  I asked them why did they get me this?  "We didn't."

GCA has a ton of good going on, most of you know that.   No matter if you read it on here in a thread or not, there are countless good stories happening along with friendships made, all the time.

Eric

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2010, 12:35:43 PM »
Jeff Forston, reply #49, to Bill Brightly:

"...there are many people I enjoyed reading that left.  The likes of which you couldn't hope to replace."

"Now it is infiltrated by the likes of people one-upping each other with what courses they have shagged.  If you can't see that, then I really could care less what you think of my 'lame' observations."

Jeff Fortson, reply #54, to Bill Brightly:

"Sorry if you were insulted.  I certainly wasn't calling you out personally." (emphasis mine)



Phil,

You do realize post #54 was not addressed to Bill, right?  I was addressing Matthew.  

Plus, in post #53 I actually state that I am using the word "you" in general terms.

Please get the facts straight and don't distort them.  Thanks.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 12:38:16 PM by Jeff Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2010, 12:42:32 PM »
Jeff, is it fair to say you've come out of those experiences with a very broad brush?


Yes and no.  There are some generalizations I have flung out there but I'm not blind enough to assume that everyone on here is an access whore.  It's just way more prevalent than it used to be.  I think it detracts from the site, so I shared that opinion.  I knew I would ruffle the feathers of some.  Most likely, I ruffled the feathers of people that are guilty of it.  I'm fine with that.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2010, 04:53:05 PM »
Jeff: this is the most egregious attempt I've seen.  It was sent privately to me.

Your brush was even broader when you were waging jihad against magazine raters.  Was that crusade an offshoot of the access issue?

Obviously your experiences are different than mine and those of others.  When I got this PM it was easy to laugh at the absurdity.  (For one, Florida has never held a US Open.)  If I got them unsolicited from strangers daily, yeah...I guess it would taint my views.

=====

florida golf post GCA
« Sent to: John_Conley on: January 08, 2004, 12:07:23 PM » Quote Reply Remove   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi John- I was reading your post on Florida golf on GCA and wanted to know if you have any suggestions re: getting on Seminole.  I'm on a quest to play all the U.S. Open courses ( 21 so far) , but am running into a brick wall.  I thought I had my connection because I know the events director there, but he said he couldn't help me and that you have to play with a member.  If you could help me in any way, I would really appreciate it.  I've got a good connection for Jupiter Hills already. Also if you wanted to play any name courses in New York, Conn. or Mass. I've got a lot of connections there.  Thankyou.   *&^%$  )%$#^&

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2010, 05:02:05 PM »
...and now gca.com has turned into the Match.com for golfing whores.  Sure, some good posters still sprinkle in the good threads, but come on

Intended or not, this is majorly insulting to most of the posters on here. Thankfully, one can only be offended by choice.

I've had so many positive experiences with people on here - receiving books in the mail, yardage guides in the mail, books brought back from the other side of the world, emails with photos of courses people know I love, invitations to join posters I've never even meet, not to mention the time spent with friends on here, golfing and otherwise - that I can only read what some people post and marvel at how different their experiences have been. Sorry your experiences have been so bad.

Tom, glad to hear Ted is doing well, I always enjoyed his posts on here.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2010, 05:13:42 PM »
florida golf post GCA
« Sent to: John_Conley on: January 08, 2004, 12:07:23 PM » Quote Reply Remove   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi John- I was reading your post on Florida golf on GCA and wanted to know if you have any suggestions re: getting on Seminole.  I'm on a quest to play all the U.S. Open courses ( 21 so far) , but am running into a brick wall.  I thought I had my connection because I know the events director there, but he said he couldn't help me and that you have to play with a member.  If you could help me in any way, I would really appreciate it.  I've got a good connection for Jupiter Hills already. Also if you wanted to play any name courses in New York, Conn. or Mass. I've got a lot of connections there.  Thankyou.   *&^%$  )%$#^&


I saw this in The Da Access Code...

*&^%$  )%$#^&



Just a minute...













Voilą !!







Cryptex says... JASON JONES!


John Moore II

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2010, 05:22:01 PM »
Jeff: this is the most egregious attempt I've seen.  It was sent privately to me.

Your brush was even broader when you were waging jihad against magazine raters.  Was that crusade an offshoot of the access issue?

Obviously your experiences are different than mine and those of others.  When I got this PM it was easy to laugh at the absurdity.  (For one, Florida has never held a US Open.)  If I got them unsolicited from strangers daily, yeah...I guess it would taint my views.

=====

florida golf post GCA
« Sent to: John_Conley on: January 08, 2004, 12:07:23 PM » Quote Reply Remove  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi John- I was reading your post on Florida golf on GCA and wanted to know if you have any suggestions re: getting on Seminole.  I'm on a quest to play all the U.S. Open courses ( 21 so far) , but am running into a brick wall.  I thought I had my connection because I know the events director there, but he said he couldn't help me and that you have to play with a member.  If you could help me in any way, I would really appreciate it.  I've got a good connection for Jupiter Hills already. Also if you wanted to play any name courses in New York, Conn. or Mass. I've got a lot of connections there.  Thankyou.   *&^%$  )%$#^&

I sent a message similar to this, but what I asked was if I decided to write a letter to someone at a club (none specifically mentioned) in order to see if it was possible to play there, to whom should I address the letter. I asked this since I had read on here several times that some courses are somewhat receptive to written letters. I have yet to send off any of those letters.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2010, 05:25:46 PM »
You know whaT Eric?  I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2010, 05:26:23 PM »
...and now gca.com has turned into the Match.com for golfing whores.  Sure, some good posters still sprinkle in the good threads, but come on

Intended or not, this is majorly insulting to most of the posters on here. Thankfully, one can only be offended by choice.

I've had so many positive experiences with people on here - receiving books in the mail, yardage guides in the mail, books brought back from the other side of the world, emails with photos of courses people know I love, invitations to join posters I've never even meet, not to mention the time spent with friends on here, golfing and otherwise - that I can only read what some people post and marvel at how different their experiences have been. Sorry your experiences have been so bad.

Tom, glad to hear Ted is doing well, I always enjoyed his posts on here.

If people are insulted then they are either guilty or have thin skin.  This is not a slam on any one individual.  This is an observation of mine about the site.  If you don't agree, I'm ok with that.  The only people upset with me appear to be those that don't want the topic brought to light or exposed.  

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2010, 05:26:37 PM »
...and now gca.com has turned into the Match.com for golfing whores.  Sure, some good posters still sprinkle in the good threads, but come on

Intended or not, this is majorly insulting to most of the posters on here. Thankfully, one can only be offended by choice.

I've had so many positive experiences with people on here - receiving books in the mail, yardage guides in the mail, books brought back from the other side of the world, emails with photos of courses people know I love, invitations to join posters I've never even meet, not to mention the time spent with friends on here, golfing and otherwise - that I can only read what some people post and marvel at how different their experiences have been. Sorry your experiences have been so bad.

Tom, glad to hear Ted is doing well, I always enjoyed his posts on here.

"I'm not blind enough to assume that everyone on here is an access whore.  It's just way more prevalent than it used to be.  I think it detracts from the site, so I shared that opinion. I knew I would ruffle the feathers of some.  Most likely, I ruffled the feathers of people that are guilty of it.  I'm fine with that."

And this comment is a close second for most offensive of those posted by Jeff recently. The implication, of course, that those who disagree with Jeff's assessment of this site, and his views on access requests, are those making such requests in manners that he deems offensive.

The broad brush is a tool most often used by those who have no specifics to back up their argument.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2010, 05:30:11 PM »
He outed me.  I would have otherwise been cool with his completely out of the blue, random first post in many moons but I know he did it because of me so now I am pissed.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2010, 05:41:13 PM »
...and now gca.com has turned into the Match.com for golfing whores.  Sure, some good posters still sprinkle in the good threads, but come on

Intended or not, this is majorly insulting to most of the posters on here. Thankfully, one can only be offended by choice.

I've had so many positive experiences with people on here - receiving books in the mail, yardage guides in the mail, books brought back from the other side of the world, emails with photos of courses people know I love, invitations to join posters I've never even meet, not to mention the time spent with friends on here, golfing and otherwise - that I can only read what some people post and marvel at how different their experiences have been. Sorry your experiences have been so bad.

Tom, glad to hear Ted is doing well, I always enjoyed his posts on here.

"I'm not blind enough to assume that everyone on here is an access whore.  It's just way more prevalent than it used to be.  I think it detracts from the site, so I shared that opinion. I knew I would ruffle the feathers of some.  Most likely, I ruffled the feathers of people that are guilty of it.  I'm fine with that."

And this comment is a close second for most offensive of those posted by Jeff recently. The implication, of course, that those who disagree with Jeff's assessment of this site, and his views on access requests, are those making such requests in manners that he deems offensive.

The broad brush is a tool most often used by those who have no specifics to back up their argument.
Phil,

What is so offensive?  If you are not guilty of it then why be offended?  Your conclusion is not correct.  You have lumped everyone in my statement.  I said I ruffled feathers and that "most likely" it ruffled the feather of those guilty of it.  That certainly doesn't imply that if you disagree with me that you are certainly guilty.  What's offensive is misconstruing someone's words and not taking back obvious mistakes when criticizing someone which you have already done on this thread (i.e. my response to you in post #59).

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 05:44:25 PM by Jeff Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Kyle Harris

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2010, 06:15:13 PM »
Inside was a scarlet golf shirt with The Ohio State Buckeyes logo on it! ???  I asked them why did they get me this?  "We didn't."


Eric

Why would ANYONE do that to someone...

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2010, 06:20:53 PM »
Kyle,
Took me a second and then I remembered.  That's one really funny post!

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2010, 06:55:23 PM »
You know Kyle, now that you mention it, I think his purpose in sending me the shirt was in fact more of a 'booyah' rather than a thank you!  I lost both lunch and dinner to him that day, plus he did seem to hold a grudge over the fact that my Vols knocked his Buckeyes out of the NCAA tournament this year. 

Great Observation!! ;) ;D

Brian Laurent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2010, 08:24:54 PM »
You know Kyle, now that you mention it, I think his purpose in sending me the shirt was in fact more of a 'booyah' rather than a thank you!  I lost both lunch and dinner to him that day, plus he did seem to hold a grudge over the fact that my Vols knocked his Buckeyes out of the NCAA tournament this year. 

Great Observation!! ;) ;D

The sender will certainly be satisfied to know that every time you look at/put on that shirt, you'll be reminded of the can of whoop-ass opened up on the Vols contingent that day.  ;)

Can't wait for the rematch!

Woops...what was this thread about again?
"You know the two easiest jobs in the world? College basketball coach or golf course superintendent, because everybody knows how to do your job better than you do." - Roy Williams | @brianjlaurent | @OHSuperNetwork

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2010, 08:36:46 PM »
It is a reminder that there is indeed life after forty.  Just ask all the cougars out there.

Anthony Gray

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2010, 12:59:40 AM »
You know Kyle, now that you mention it, I think his purpose in sending me the shirt was in fact more of a 'booyah' rather than a thank you!  I lost both lunch and dinner to him that day, plus he did seem to hold a grudge over the fact that my Vols knocked his Buckeyes out of the NCAA tournament this year. 

Great Observation!! ;) ;D

  You never mentioned the I'm with stupid shirt I got for JC Jones.

  Anthony


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