[Tom Dunne]

"I don't carry a flask in the field, mate. But that Israeli Ecstasy suuuuure is sweet!"

"Where....where am I again?"

"I can't feel my toes...."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Huh? The architects of the golden age should have continued the Victorian style (which ignored the historical model)?
I never said that.
I said, if there was substance to your theory regarding the influence of "historical perspective" upon architects, the "dark ages" never would have occured, and if they did, the "golden age" wouldn't have transitioned out of the "dark ages" so rapidly.[/color]

I think one of the roles historians have is not only identifying periods of design, but also evaluating the pros and cons of the period--and the wisdom of emulating or borrowing from the period.

Historians should confine themselves to recording history, not interpreting it based on their personal views.[/color]

Clearly most historians today look at the Victorian era as a period of poor design...

You're asking historians to depart from their area of expertise and make value judgements that they may be unqualified to make.

Was it poor design at the time, or poor landforms.
Was it poor design or the inability to transpose and transition the concepts of links golf to inland golf ?  

Monday morning quarterbacks are a dime a dozen[/color]

I don't know if I ever seen or heard anyone recommend that period (with the possible exception of Adam Collins).

It may be equivalent to comparing the Univac computer of old to today's laptops.  Early advances came slowly and, in retrospect could be deemed the dark ages of computers.
   
Removing the game from its original fields of play, to land deemed unsuitable for golf, by novices, was a daunting task, one with no prior data base.  Hence, it may be the essence of that early challenge that represented itself as a fumbling attempt, rather than knowing better and putting forth poor designs.[/color]

The way I see it there is a difference between a general design philosophy or a historical design philosophy or style affecting different medium….for example the order and symmetry of Classical being applied to garden design, and looking specificially at a medium's historic tradition.

But, if garden design was taken to mountainous terrain one couldn't apply the principles or evaluate it in the context of the previously accepted designs as layed out on relatively flat land.   A new set of design principles would have to be created, and don't forget, noone is playing on the garden.[/color]

One of the interesting aspects of design thought in the early 20th C. was the diversity from medium to medium or even from one region to another within the medium. There was a sensativity to historic and regional design.

And, I maintain that you can't compare and/or equate static mediums to interactive mediums.  They have entirely different purposes, on entirely different mediums.[/color]

In 1880 and 1900, Golf design had its own historical tradition, unfortunately the golf architects (and I use that term loosely) in 1880 chose to ignore that tradition and used a foreign unnatural style based on the popular aesthetic. But fortunately (IMO) the architects in 1900 began to embrace the historic tradition and reject the historical ignoring Dark Age style.

Tom, are you now saying that the Victorian Age, for golf course architecture is not from 1837 to 1901,  but from 1890 to 1900 ?

That would seem to contradict almost every historian in the world.[/color]

DARK AGES implies intellectual stagnation, ignorance and cultural decline.

How did literature fare during the Victorian Age, the "Dark Ages" ?

I don't agree with your definition, but I understand what you're implying.[/color]


This is getting way too complicated....my brain is about to go into its own dark age.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Re-read the essay. IMO Hutchinson was the primary influence, he recommended the naturally evolved links as the model (an idea consistant with the prevalent design philosophy of the time). Or if you prefer, the links were the primary influence thanks to Hutchinson's encouragment."

Tom:

I've read your essay very carefully many times now. We simply do not agree about Hutchinson or the extent of the influence or the A/C Movement on Golden Age architecture, and it's not from a lack of understanding about him on my part. The weight of evidence on the other side of the argument is simply too great, I'm afraid.

"In the essay I also argued that golf architecture should be considered as one of the design medium within the A&C Movement."

I've heard you mention this before but I'm not at all sure what your point is.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Which theory are you referring to?

Are Bernard Darwin, Herbert Warren Wind, Fred Hawtree and Ron Whitten out of line when they include their judgments on Victorian architecture?

“And, I maintain that you can't compare and/or equate static mediums to interactive mediums.  They have entirely different purposes, on entirely different mediums.”

Says who? Maybe you can’t…be others can and do.

“Tom, are you now saying that the Victorian Age, for golf course architecture is not from 1837 to 1901, but from 1890 to 1900 ?”

Yes, that is what I’m saying (1880 to 1900). The popularity of the game didn’t take off until around 1880.

The Dark Ages or Middle ages were aprox. 500 to 1100 AD.  The Victorian period was not the Dark Ages.

The "Dark Ages" of golf design (aka Victorian era of golf design) was from about 1880 to 1900. That late Victorian period was blessed with great literature -- Dickens, Kipling, Conan Doyle, Wells, Carlyle, Ruskin, Arnold, Huxley, Tennyson, Morris, Stevenson, Wilde and Pater. A number of these guys were associated with the Aesthetic movement, the Pre-Raphaelites and/or the A&C Movement.

Conan Doyle and Wells were avid golfers. Kipling attended the same school as Hutchinson at Westward Ho!...but I’m sure if he played the game.

TE
It doesn’t appear to me you’ve read it very carefully. You continue to claim the essay claims the A&C was the primary influence upon the golden age. The essay says that Hutchinson was the primary influence. He was the first and most powerful voice recommending the natural links should be emulated as much as possible inland.

The essay also explains the prevailing aesthetic philosophy in Britain was based upon the ideas of Pugin, Ruskin and Morris. And that many of the golf architects of that time were spreading a similar message. And becasue of that IMO golf architecture should be included within the A&C movement.

[TEPaul]

"TE
"It doesn’t appear to me you’ve read it very carefully. You continue to claim the essay claims the A&C was the primary influence upon the golden age. The essay says that Hutchinson was the primary influence."

Tom:

I've read it a number of times very carefully. You say I CONTINUE TO CLAIM the the essay claims A&C Movemement was the primary influence upon the Golden Age?! If you aren't claiming and suggesting that then why did you suggest in that essay as well as on all these threads that the Golden Age era should be more descriptively renanamed "Arts and Crafts Architecture"??

Really Tom MacWood, you should either read more carefully WHAT YOU WROTE or else be a bit more honest on here!  

"He was the first and most powerful voice recommending the natural links should be emulated as much as possible inland."

Maybe he was, but it was Willie Park Jr who designed and built Sunningdale and Huntercombe that were considered to be in golf's architectural literature and history the sea-change in the heathlands. Are you going to seriously try to tell anyone that it was Hutchinson that influenced Park Jr to do what he did there. If you try to do that on here I rest my case---you're dreaming and you're a total historical revisionist. You really do cling to this ridiculous notion that you're going to rewrite the accurate histories that've for years been written on golf architecture, don't you?

"The essay also explains the prevailing aesthetic philosophy in Britain was based upon the ideas of Pugin, Ruskin and Morris. And that many of the golf architects of that time were spreading a similar message. And becasue of that IMO golf architecture should be included within the A&C movement.

The prevailng aesthetic philosophy in Britain was based on the ideas of Pugin, Rushkin and Morris?? And that would be the A&C Movement?? You should hit the history books, Tom, or else open your eyes because the isn't even close.The A&C Movement may've been interesting but it didn't even make a dent in the British "aesthetic" as much as you'd obviously like to think it did, even in building architecture which was the A&C movement's primary medium and art form. Classical, and Georgian architecture basically dominated before, during and after the A/C movement as well as other styles during and afterwards--Queen Anne, Edwardian etc--which in fact were all very balanced! Go to Britain today and see for yourself!  

Your premise and your theory just isn't sound but I'm glad we've had these discussions about it. One benefit is it should bring more attention to the man who really should be given more credit for creating the spark that led to the Golden Age---Willie Park Jr!

[T_MacWood]

TE
Was the A&C Movement the primary influence upon A&C architecture? No. It was the vernacular architecture. Was the A&C Movement the primary influence upon A&C garden design? No. It was the English cottage garden. Was the A&C Movement the primary influenc on A&C painting? No it was the Olde English and Gothic motifs.

"Are you going to seriously try to tell anyone that it was Hutchinson that influence Park Jr to do what he did there.  "

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. Park and the rest of the heathland architects around London (not to mention an American or two).

"If you try to do that on here I rest my case---you're dreaming and you're a total historical revisionist."

I believe that is what you told me when I said Crump killed himself.

"Classical, and Georgian architecture basically dominated before, during and after the A/C movement as well as other styles during and afterwards--Queen Anne, Edwardian etc--which in fact were all very balanced!"

Who are some of the more prominant architects practicing Classical architecture in the 20th C.? The International Style (ie Modern) dominated after the A&C movement....see the Birkdale clubhouse. Britain is amongst the most conscious nations regarding preservation of its historic building and vernacular architecture. That preservation attitude can be traced to William Morris.

Willie Park II does deserve enormous credit, that is why I focused a great deal of my research and attention upon him. Is there anyone one on GCA who has mentioned WP II more and praised WP II more than yours truly?

[TEPaul]

"TE
Was the A&C Movement the primary influence upon A&C architecture? No. It was the vernacular architecture. Was the A&C Movement the primary influence upon A&C garden design? No. It was the English cottage garden. Was the A&C Movement the primary influenc on A&C painting? No it was the Olde English and Gothic motifs."

Hey, Tom, if you're trying to interest or impress someone why don't you take this stuff off of here and put it on a vernacular building architecture, garden design or painting website? This website is about golf course architecture.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom MacWood, I loved your essay the first 6 times I read it. You noted it could be improved and I do agree with that. However, you did what noone else did and that is to put a historical aspect into our views and discussions on golf architecture. It may have been there from time to time but not in the depth it is today. Thank you again for you as much or more than any other person on here has helped me grow in this area. The intellectual growth and expansion of knowledge in areas of interest is one the great joys in life. Thank you again. And to think this has occured with Bush 2 in the White House pushing for no intellectual growth in America. lol

[TEPaul]

"If you try to do that on here I rest my case-----you're dreaming and you're a total historical revisionist."

"I believe that is what you told me when I said Crump killed himself."

You know Goddamned well I'm not going to let you get away with a lie like that. I never said anything remotely like that to you, on here or anywhere else about Crump.

When you said on this website that Crump killed himself, I merely asked you if you could prove that. You said you could and when I asked you how you could prove it you refused to anwer for about two months. The rumor that Crump shot himself has been around for 90 years and I've heard about it for about 30 years.

Why did no one look into it? Obviously no one ever saw the point of doing that until you. Anyone can go to the trouble of petitioning the authorities to get a death certificiate for a man who died 85 years ago. The threads are all there in the back pages so I have the proof that all I asked you is if you could prove he committed suicide. I also asked you on those threads, as did Wayne Morrison, why you thought it mattered if he died of poison from a tooth abscess or of suicide and you told us on the phone and on here that you thought it mattered because that made the club glorify him at the expense of Harry Colt's contribution to PVGC. That remark of yours was a crock of shit then and it's one now if you're still trying to maintain that fantasy. Thank God you didn't have the poor sense to write that as you told me you were going to. I firmly believe those voluminous threads on here about all that persuaded you not to write such a ridiculous thing. For the record you also told me you were going to write an essay on how an expert writer/researcher gets harrassed if he tries to uncover the fact of Crump's suicide. Thank God you didn't write that either. You also suggested on here there was some kind of Philadelphia conspiracy about this. Another crock of shit.

Don't you dare tell me on here that I called you a revisionist for saying you could prove Crump committed suicide. All I ever did, and Wayne ever did, is ask you if you could prove it and how. You did prove it and I acknowledged that months ago.

So what does revionism have to do with Crump's suicide? If you're going to tell me AGAIN that Crump's suicide inspired the club to glorify what he did down there at the expense of what Colt did, then I am going to call you a revisionist because that is just not the case. Are you going to claim that crap again? Because if you do I'm going to get into it with you all over again.

Because of that remark of yours on post #56 I'm going to rededicate my efforts to watch everything you say on here like a hawk!  

[T_MacWood]

"Crump killed himself? That one is completely typical of your typical scattershot approach to history. Let's see you even remotely prove that one....Don't avoid this question! And if you can't prove that remark do yourself a favor and do not express something like that even to me with the phrase 'Crump killed himself'! At least say "I feel he may have killed himself but I certainly can't prove that".

Your way of looking at things in this manner just seems to go on and on. You seem to support most of it with the veneer that you've been doing research for a long time. What difference does that make? You've probably been doing it poorly so long I doubt now you'd even know the difference.

For someone who seems to collect the resource material you have and do I think the way you interpret most of it both specifically and in a general sense is going to create some real revisionism of the history and evolution of golf architecture and to me that's a shame."

[TEPaul]

Both Wayne and I only asked you how you could prove Crump committed suicide after you made the remark on here that he did committ suicide. Neither of us even remotely ever denied that he may've committed suicide. Neither one of us ever called you a revisionist because you were trying to prove he committed suicide. We only asked you how you could prove it and why you were trying to prove it. We all know Crump died suddenly, we only asked you why you thought it made any difference to the club or others and to the architecture and who was responsible for it HOW he died---eg the manner in which he died.

I'm going to reprint those posts that only asked you how you could prove it, neither of us ever said it wasn't true. I'm going to reprint my constant remark that the story of his suicide had been around for 85 years and that I knew of it for 30 years.

Anyone in that club or anywhere for that matter could've produced Crump's death certificate by petitioning the authorities that have his death certificate. Apparently no one saw the point of doing that. What difference would it have made?

We also asked you why you were trying to prove he committed suicide and your response was that you thought Crump's part in the creation of PVGC had been glorified and inaccurately portrayed at the expense of what Colt did there BECAUSE he committed suicide. Do you still maintain that ridiculous position now? You even implying some campaign on the part of Philadelphia golf to protect Crump's reputation at the expense of Colt's.

None of that was true then and it's not true now.

And then you ended up doing and about-face and writing and essay entitled "Portrait of a Legend". I wonder why you did that about-face and wrote about him that way. Did it have something to do with those threads about him on here? There's no question in my mind it did.

Do you think your essay that concludes Crump was and is considered a legend at that club and around here is some revelation on your part? We've all known that for decades but thanks for confirming it again.  

What was your real purpose in going to such lengths to prove Crump committed suicide Tom? I don't think it was to reveal that Crump was a legend---I think it was to try to make a name for yourself.

[paul cowley]

man, this treads OT but continuing along that vein[reply#43].....TomP, was overnight not long enough to ponder my offer?....if its a money thing, I could probably get you five figures, six would be a stretch.

 Not only would you be expected to participate fully in the design arena, but also your fine wordsmithing talents would be called upon to chronicle and critique the endevour.

....your first day of work would be june third when we have to be on site to answer questions posed by a committee.
  Who says you are too old to die young?..lets charge one last hill...come on, hup two hup two hup two...we're almost at the top

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Just tell me where to be on June 3rd and I'll be there bright and early. A flat rate per job of $199.95 is all I require. I'll bring my own flask.

[BCrosby]

I have no interst in entering this debate other than to note that in addition to Wells and Conan-Doyle, Rudyard Kipling and R.L. Stevenson were also avid golfers.

Kipling had a two hole golf course built on his property and played it in the winter with golf balls he painted orange.

It is also my understanding that R.L. Stevenson and Hutchinson played together regularly. I once had some materials on their relationship, but I'm not sure where they are now.

FWIW, Charles Darwin (as in The Origin of the Species) played regularly as well.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Thanks for the info. It was fascinating period when the lives of many interesting people intersected.

TE
The architects and theorists associated with A&C movment promoted the use of vernacular architecture, which included Queen Anne, Tudor and Georgian. The Edwardian period ran from aprox 1900 to 1914. Its style is interchangeable with A&C, in fact most of the prominant Edwardian architects were "A&C architects"...with neo-Georgian, Tudor and Art Nouveau being the most common Edwardian styles.

[TEPaul]

"TE
The architects and theorists associated with A&C movment promoted the use of vernacular architecture, which included Queen Anne, Tudor and Georgian. The Edwardian period ran from aprox 1900 to 1914. Its style is interchangeable with A&C, in fact most of the prominant Edwardian architects were "A&C architects"...with neo-Georgian, Tudor and Art Nouveau being the most common Edwardian styles."

Tom:

That's very interesting to me and I can't wait to discuss it with you on here (not that I disagree---just to discuss it )

I'm no real student of building architecture but I have been around and couldn't possibly miss Georgian architecture (as I totally grew up with it). Maybe I'm wrong but as beautiful and appealing as I think Georgian architecture is, I feel it's almost as "balanced" as Greek or Roman "classic" architecture. So my question to you, Tom, is, how much do you really intend to throw into this "Arts and Crafts" construct and argument to make your point?  

Or, I guess another way of saying what I'm trying to say to you is, when it comes to interesting and important distinctions and differences in architectural art forms, at what point do you begin to either see them or admit to them?

[T_MacWood]

Te
You're right Georgian architecture was known for its classic elements melded with Gothic and sometimes Picturesque. The Georgian revival or neo-Georgian of the Arts & Crafts and Edwardian period took some of those elements (like brick facades and sash windows), but also mixed with Colonial and vernacular elements. One of the better known examples is Standen designed by Phillip Webb.

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