[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark,
Never are you too soft!

Mike Cirba-you really know how to make a guy hurt 3000 miles away!

For those of you that haven't been to Lehigh, John's seemingly tireless efforts to get this course play as if it was in 1927 are worthy of a ten gun GCA salute. (Ran, fire up them guns!)

As noted in Mike Cirba's post on #8, I specifically just got up on my one sleep-in day to comment again on the 11th and 13th grass bunkers which, as you, John, Bill and I have talked about in the past, just don't seem to fit and they are more specifically the only downside to a perfectly classic golf design and the efforts to make it play as such.

Now my question that so ruthlessly disturbed my beauty sleep!

How many times has the Little Lehigh River risen since these grass bunkers were instituted?

(For those of you that don't know, the LLR would rise certain times of the year and wash out the orignal sand bunkers.)

Also, a question for John Chassard or Ron Forse:

Was the original green at the 11th raised in an effort to get it out of the rising waters?

And finally! (Whew!)

Kudos to Ron Forse for such an excellent job of restoration!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

I felt the same way about the grass bunkers,
that they were a weak compromise in the name of an occassional maintainance problem.

If Lehigh would get rid of all the flower and shrub beds that abundantly surround every tee, take the maintainance money saved, and use it to fund repair and restoration of those bunkers every time the stream/river overflows its banks and damages the bunkers, they'd still have plenty left over to embark on other projects or practices.

BillV,

I never advocated lengthening Lehigh,
I liked the course the way it is, but wouldn't object slight additions here or there.

Mark and Bill,

Was the 8th tee always in its current configuration, or was it more flush with the surrounding terrain ?

I think your Green Superintendent is terrific, understands golf extremely well, and like many, has an uphill battle against elements within the membership that want lush, green, conditions.

[BillV]

Patrick

LCC is a CC, not a GC, the flower beds are unfortunately unlikely to go just as it will be too soft and mushy at times.

The original original 8th tee was  built up slightly, but was down at the river's edge back in the 20's and 30's at least. There is an aerial of the course from the early 40's or so in the manager's office that shows it well (in a display accompanying the first ace of #7) but I am certain that it proved unsafe with pushed tee shots off #7 as the trees over there get quite a workout as it is.  I will double check when I am there next, but I believe that it shows the early fairway bunker very well, and I will try to digitize it on my Mavica and send it to Tommy for all to see.  As you may recall it is quite a hill to butt against and it is handled well already at 14, so removing that challenge still left one similar on the course.

Also, hats off to John Chassard, our super who is absolutely first rate and has helped out other local guys at critical times, he is one of the best, a good player and a real solid citizen, too.

[Matt_Ward]

BillV:

If I had to chart course rating and slope for Lehigh CC from the tips I'd venture the following given the terrain, dimensions and contours of the greens and overall shot values called for with the following numbers:

*No less than 73.0 Course Rating
*No less than 132 Slope

Mark Fine:

Good question you posed to me. Mark, I think the state rankings as put forward by GD is so completely distorted to be beyond any comprehension. I thought New Jersey was bad but the Keystone State is out in LA LA LAND!

I've seen just about everything that is well worth playing in Pennsy (now that I have played Lehigh), and, as I said previously, I would opt for Lehigh for #3 in the state if two of the par-4's could be stretched -- specifically #1 and #18. Adding 20-30 yards to each would not take away anything but really add something to a course that has just about everything you could want except for a long par-4 challenge, in my opinion.

On a related post talking about longish par-4's, I stated, and I still believe it strongly, that no superior course can be without having at least two or three holes that are at or beyond 450 yards or more. Merion / East has the 5th, 16th and 18th, to name just three and it still is about 6,700 yards, I believe, from the new tips. Pac Dunes, has no less than a few such holes (i.e. 4th, 7th, 13th), and is slightly more than 6,600 yards from the max back.

Lehigh CC has some of the best mid par-4's I've seen. They constantly offer a dizzying variety of challenges in terms of quality shotmaking and grade changes in terrain and smart bunkering. But, I believe the design lacks having some long par-4's that test real firepower off the tee and with the long iron / wood approach. Think of how Shinnecock challenges you with a variety of holes but Flyn''s design has such holes in #6, #9, #12, #14 and #18. What a fivesome of superior long holes that go in such different directions and offer such varied terrain in their overall play!!!

If the 8th hole used to play 440-yards I'd love to see that return to being even though the odds are practically nill!

My Doak grade of 7.5 is based on what Lehigh is. Having the long par-4 element would solidify, in my mind, the total picture of shot offerings and easily boost the course to a 8 number rating.

As I said on a previous post, lengthening the 1st and 18th would be ideal because the land is available, the dimensions of the green could handle the added approach distance and since the wind pattern is different for each hole you are guaranteed that one of them will be into a headwind -- quite likely the 1st. In addition, the saddle on the 18th would propel tee shots for nearly all players even if the hole were 30 yards longer.

Lehigh has wonderful holes but the course relies overwhelmingly so on placement -- not power. Too much emphasis is placed through an array of mid-length / par-4's - many of which are marvelously designed. In my mind you have to have layouts with design balance and the par-4's are the backbone of any course since there are so many of them in any design. Adding distance to just two holes would up the ante in forcing players out of their comfort zone and have to put a little extra in their tee shot. And, best of all, since they come either early or late in the round the golfer knows that just "bumping" the ball 230 yards off the tee will not guarantee him a soft approach.

Mark, your last question about other courses that I think should be rated higher in the overall state rankings include two of which are not even listed in the latest GD assessment and one which is rated too low.

They are:

Nemacolin Woodlands / Mystic Course
Farmington, PA
6,832 yards / CR - 75 / Sl - 146
Top notch Pete Dye design on a great site and full of varying challenges. How this course is not even rated in the top 25 is an absolute oversight! I'd put it ahead among the best 5 courses I've played in PA.

Quicksilver
Midway, PA
7,120 yards / CR - 75.7 / Sl - 145
The original owner, Bob Murphy, a member at Oakmont, wanted to mirror many of the elements at his club and the design here is really solid. The greens require a delicate touch and the player had best be able to hit drives that require adequate distance and precision. To be fair, I have not played the course in quite some time and I from what I have been told Murphy is no longer connected to the site. I loved the course but a return would really indicate if such a lofty position in the top ten is still deserved.

I really loved Stonewall and feel it should be among the state' best -- how it's rated at #17 is beyond me! I also would have Inniscrone as a sleeper choice and just outside the top ten along with Nevillewood, the Nicklaus design otuside of Pittsburgh which I liked, Fox Chapel and Lancaster (Meadow Creek & Dogwood).

I don't believe any of the courses at Saucon Valley deserve such high treatment within the state. I really do like Huntsville near Wilkes-Baare and I think Rees Jones did a wonderful job. My only reservation is that in the 3-4 times I've played it the turf has always been soft.

I like Laurel Valley and Aronimink but they don't possess any real character found in Lehigh and are one dimensional courses where length is really more of the equation. I'd like to return to Aronimink to see what has happened to the design -- it's been about 7 years since I last saw the course and I understand key changes have been made so I reserve judgement until I see it.

In Pennsy my top ten would be:

1). Oakmont
2). Merion / East
3). Lehigh CC (if two par-4's could be lengthened) if not then Huntsville
4). Nemacolin Woodlands
5). Stonewall
6). Lehigh CC (as is with no changes)
7). Aronimink
. Huntingdon Valley
9). Quicksilver (need return visit to see it again)
10). Laurel Valley
*Sleepers include Nevillewood, Inniscrone, Fox Chapel and Lancaster.

[Craig Disher]

Flynn's original #11 at Manor reminded me of LCC's #11 - the large grass bunker on the left was the only grass bunker on the course. It was next to a stream, partially dammed, that flooded in heavy rains. The green was removed in the 80s and replaced with a much larger green set behind a wall of railroad ties and a larger pond. The original hole was less than 150 yards but as you can see, the putting surface was tiny.

Mark - the pictures I posted on the other thread were of Manor's #13. If it looked like LCC's, I'd really be surprised.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Your list looks pretty good (though mine is  somewhat different) and some of it again comes down to personal preference and definition of greatness.  For example, I'm not as high on Mystic and Quicksilver as you are.  I would classify them in the category I call - "great tests of golf but not necessarily great golf courses".  We can discuss what I mean by that over a few beers sometime.  

Can't argue with you too much on the long par four issue at Lehigh (remember though that #18 is already 445 yards and a very strong finish.  If you hit it 300 off the tee you better hit it properly or you will not make par.  There is usually more of a crosswind there which makes the drive even tougher.  Moreover, that right side of the green is very very tough to find even with a perfectly placed tee shot.  Some of the other longer par fours are 419, 415, 427, 410 and 416 but clearly there are no 480 yarders.

At the end of the day though you are absolutely correct about GD's state lists.  Most of them are a mess!  Other than maybe the top few courses, I think the main value they serve is to at least identify some of the better courses in the state to play, but just forget about the order they are in!  

Gotta run!
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

Some of the holes you mention at Shinnecock were much shorter when Flynn designed them, and had new, longer tees added in specific preparation for the US OPEN.

You also have to understand the strong prevailing winds at Shinnecock which Lehign doesn't get, and discount length on holes
# 2, 3, and 12.

BillV,

Lehigh's topography makes it difficult to extract its feel through photos, one really needs to play it to understand and appreciate it.

I can see your point on errant shots on # 7 creating a hot zone on a tee down by the river, but, it would seem to have been a better hole from there, certainly putting more demand on the tee shot, and perhaps fulfilling Matt's criteria re length.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

You proved my point in mentioning how the forces that be lengthened the holes in question at Shinnecock. By doing that they simply increased the challenge to an otherwise superb course and made it even more so -- particularly for the top player.

I think doing the same at Lehigh (holes #1 and #18, maybe #8(?) would be following the same formula.

You know when I say you add additional tee boxes the likelihood is that these tees will be more for that rare day when the course is played to its maximum. In nearly all other cases, people will just look at them and hurry to the forward tee positions they usually play.

When you really size up what I'm saying is that par-4's need to have design balance. I'm not advocating absurd distances be added but Lehigh is a bit short on having well balanced par-4 holes that compliment each other. I believe what I am suggesting would provide that balance without carrying it beyond reason and prudence. I completely concurn with nearly all who have posted how marvleous the Flynn design is and how underrated the course has been for too long.

Just a humble opinion, but as you say Pat, I could be wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I don't recall there being that much room on
# 18 to push a hole back, and while there is the room at # 1, that would sure make for a difficult, even non-forgiving first hole.
Since this is a "members" course, a sporty one at that, I think lengthening # 1 would be counter productive.
On # 8 it's hard to argue with the original tee location back by the river.

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig Disher,

LOVED your pictures of Manor, a fun old Alex Findlay design with lots of Flynn additions.  Are you from the area?

Matt Ward,

Man, when we agree, we agree totally (i.e. Twisted Dune, Lehigh, Plainfield)!  When we don't we really don't.  Personally, I think Mystic Rock at Nemacolin Woodlands falls into the category of courses that should never have been built given the extreme topography and rocky (bouldery is a better term) soil.  While there are a handful of visually spectacular holes, as well as lots of tough ones, I was sorely disappointed in Pete's use of severe man made features on an already brutal site that just took everything right over the edge.  An on land like Mystic, was built on, that fall from the edge is a long, long way down.  

[Craig_Rokke]

I forget if it's Mystic Rock that I'm thinking of, but isn't there a homongous
man-made hill of a teeing area that really
looks out of place on the course?

Getting back to Flynn/Lehigh....was there
any architect in Flynn's era (or any other)that you'd rather have dealing with routing and shaping a difficult mountainous or hilly site?

Matt's PA ranking is definitely not in lock-step with many other's. Unfortunately, I've only played a couple of those courses, so I'm
not in a position to critique it.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I'm finally able to check in and see all that has been posted since our wonderful Thursday round at Lehigh.

As others hinted, I loved the course and noted that I probably gave it the nod over Huntingdon Valley.  I also think a head-to-head match play rating between both courses would be interesting.

It was fun to finally meet so many GCAers in person.  Last week I met Fred Ruttenberg, Dick Sayer, Linc Roden (what a wealth of historical golf information!), Steve Sayers (SriBungaRaya), Mike Cirba, Bill Vostinak, Matt Ward, and Mark Fine (who's played more courses than even Matt Ward).

Bill, I also mentioned that I thought the course should be rated/sloped higher.  The same goes for LuLu.

I also felt the grass bunkers on #11 should have sand in them.

I always seem to boggle other people's minds when I hit the ball fairly long as much as I choke down and as slender (okay, skinny) as I am.  Especially since I have the forearms of Olive Oyl.

Other thoughts:

The hogback (we're talking one big hog) in the middle of #2 fairway is magically invisible from the tee, despite being right in front of you.  I felt it was best (after I played it) to try to fly it to take out any wicked bounces to the sides it would otherwise do if hitting a long iron off the tee.

Number 8 is the longest 381 yard par 4 I've ever seen.

Number 17 reminds me a lot of #4 at Deerfield (F.K.A. Louviers at DuPont CC), and Mike C. agrees.

I wish I had more vacation days.

[Craig Disher]

Mike Cirba,
Egads. Alex Findlay? Where did you find this bit of information? Please email me at cdisher@erols.com.

I've lived in the DC area for many years and have played at Manor for about 10.

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

Egads, back!  Wrong Manor CC!

The one I'm referring to is near Reading, PA.  Oops...  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Cirba:

Mike, appreciate your take on my elevation of the Mystic Course at Nemacolin Woodlands. I have a great like for Pete Dye and see this course as being something out of the ordinary for the Keystone State. Mike, we do agree on plenty of items -- probably in excess of 80% -- that's not too bad!

The other top PA courses I mentioned in my top ten listing are old classic designs (I count Laurel Valley in the classic column, but could be wrong!) with the exception of Quicksilver, which I would like to see once again before confirming its placement. Can you tell me what modern designs you might have in your top ten or are they all classic designs from years ago? Or better yet -- what is your top ten? Do you agree with me that if Lehigh could lengthen 2-3 holes (either #1, #8 or #18) you would have a magnificient balancing act of superb par-4's without being dependent upon mid-length par-4's as it is today? I think just these small additions would easily push the course to #3 in the state.

Now back to Mystic. Is the site severe? Yes, no doubt! But there are quite a few strong holes that make you play. Think of how the 1st hole plays and then jump ahead to unique challenge of the 2nd! What about the finishing holes? I think sometimes what happens is that there are people who tilt towards classic designs in nearly all of their preferences. I opt to include some modern designs that I believe have plenty to offer. I also like Nevillewood that Jack Nicklaus did but I hesitate to include it in the top ten because Pennsy has a number of second tier courses that are fairly close to each other in overall quality.

But, I also believe the GD state listing for PA is geared towards an over reliance on classic designs, some of which get by simply because others that are new have not really been looked at closely (i.e. Glenmaura National, Wyncote, etc.) Mystic is a demanding course that is not a zillion yards in length. From the tips it's just over 6,800 yards, but it will not yield to anything but consistent and fine shotmaking. I see the course as being vastly underrated in the state because it is isolated 70 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. In some ways the isolation of Mystic is no less the same issue that effects Lehigh CC.

Pat Mucci:

I looked quite closely behind the tee at #18 -- I believe there is room for additional yardage if the course opted to do so. Ditto the 1st. Having an optional back tee at the 8th would also be a real plus.

Pat, when you say "member's course" I'm scratching my head and wondering what private course isn't a "member's course." Baltusrol is one -- so is GCGC, Winged Foot, etc, etc. The changes I'm talking about are nothing more than a maximum of 100 additional yards at the VERY MOST! Lehigh would still be under 6,700 yards! I'm not advocating by any means that Lehigh be turned into the Monster at The Concord!

The members can still play the course they routinely play. What I'm suggesting is a small deviation that has been done at other classic courses (to wit Shinnecock Hills, another Flynn effort!). The option to extend the lengths on these par-4's would give the club an array of par-4's that are truly comprehensive in their scope and playing characteristics.

Scott Burroughs:

Your comments are well thought out especially the 2nd hole -- a superb short par-4 that oozes real character and strategic implications!!! Why architects can't design really solid uphill holes is hartd to imagine. They should visit Lehigh to see how it can be done. Last question --did you have the opportunity to visit Twisted Dune?

Regards,

[Paul Turner]

I certainly wouldn't want to see the 8th lengthened, it plays long enough already and an lengthening would result in an even steeper uphill tee shot that would feel too much like a slog.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Do you object to long par-4's (450 yards or more) as being all "slogs?"

I concede having the 8th playing uphill is difficult but Lehigh CC needs, in my opinion, at least 2 long par-4's. If not the 8th -- what about the 1st and 18th?

[Paul Turner]

Matt

No, I don't regard all 450 yd par 4s as a slog but the 8th at Lehigh must already play the equivalent of a 420 yd flat hole.  I was amazed at how steep that tee shot is, it doesn't feel that steep when you tee off, but when you turn around and look back down the fairway towards the 7th green!!

If the tee was further down, I just see the tee shot as less appealing, it would become too steep and a slog in my mind.  Particularly as the approach would also become steeper.

Lengthening the 18th would be OK, as I think the fairway contours would play correctly.  Although you might end up with a lot of hanging lies in soft conditions, if it was pushed too far back  

I thought the 1st was fine and if the tee was taken further back wouldn't the fairway bunker be less tempting?

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Trust me -- long hitters could still hit the 1st fairway bunker even if the hole were pushed back 20 yards.

#18 is fair game because the usual prevailing wind is behind you on most days from what I have been told.

[Mark_Fine]

There is room on a number of par fours to strecth the yardage but I am not one of those pushing for that at this time.  Problem is, doing so may lead to other changes and that would really concern me.  

Pat,
You talk about the flower beds quite a bit and I understand where you are coming from.  I think you did heard John say he prefers them around the clubhouse and not out on the course, but he gets pressure from the members.

This all goes back to a number of years ago when Tom Weiskopf visited Lehigh.  He is quoted as describing Lehigh as a "scaled down Augusta National" in part due to the beautiful vistas, the mature trees, the elevation changes in the terrain, and the difficulty of the putting surfaces.  Many members remember those comments and I think this is part of the issue John faces.  Again, all in all he does an outstanding job!!  

[Craig_Rokke]

Mike Cirba-
Since you brought it up...Manor GC
outside of Reading is one of the few publics west in the western Phila suburbs I haven't played. Is it worth a trip to see Messrs. Findlay and Flynn's handiwork?

Matt-Did Murphy design Quicksilver?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I think Baltusrol and Winged Foot are a far cry from being "Members" courses.  

They forfeit their facilities to outside influences to host major tournaments at the expense of the daily needs and requirements of their dues paying members.  They hold themselves out to the viewing public as venues providing Major competitions for the best players in the world, the touring pros, not the everyday play of the members.  And, as a result of this National display, they offer their facility, on a continuing basis to Outside corporate or charitable outings, to the dismay and inconvenience of the dues paying members and maintainance schedule of the golf course.  And, in that regard, Lehigh is a members club, while the others are unique golfing Entities unto themselves.

Mark Fine,

You know that I think very highly of John, and feel that all those flower and shrub beds are a drain on his budget and manpower.
Without bringing attention to, and criticizing a club for prattices that may be detrimental to the upkeep of the golf course, things will never change.

You know that I was quite candid at lunch when John and I spoke in depth about these issues,  The real challenge it to convince the membership to devote their budget dollars to golf pursuits to the exclusion of non-golf items, and that is why I tried to discourage you from pursuing Audabon, etc. etc.

Tom Weiskopf was blessed with a great talent and swing, and as a guest of a club, I would imagine that EVEN Terrible Tom was looking to say as many nice things about Lehigh as possible.  

But, arbor committees, beautification commmittees, and garden committees have not enhanced golf course/architectual values nearly as much as they have hurt/impeded them over the last forty (40) years.

As we know from experience, Augusta Green, laced with multi-colored flowers
in the early spring in Georgia, may not be the prefered LOOK for Lehigh, in Pennsylvania throughout the summer months.

Good luck to you, Bill V and John in your continuing efforts to improve Lehigh !

Lehigh is a great GOLF, repeat, GOLF course.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Trust me, we're on the same page.  I am still not on the Grounds Committee I think because they feel I'll want the place firm, fast and not so green and I'll strongly push for much of what you are talking about.  
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

I believe Murphy did design Quicksilver with the help of the pro at the time -- Sean Parees. That's my understanding but if someone knows for sure I'd be most interested.

Pat:

I stand corrected on the defintion of "member's courses," but my main point is that adding yardage to just one or two holes is not going to fundamentally alter the way 95 percent of the people who play the course -- the day-to-day member and their guests.

My suggestion is nothing more than providing "elasticity" to a design of first rate quality. Lehigh excels at mid-length par-4's ... the ledger of at least having two long par-4's is a bit short (no pun intended!).

From what I have seen posted in response to my suggestion I still have not seen a counter argument that is compelling to change my mind. Lehigh is a wonderful design and I envy the members who have the opportunity to play such a wonderful layout. I offer my comments as only one perspective in increasing its standing which for too long has been underrated by nearly all the golf pubs -- particularly GD.

Regards,

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

It's tough to answer your question as to whether to head out to Manor, near Reading.  The course is quite short, but offers a handful of really good holes.  All day long you go from really pretty easy holes to holes that are extremely difficult.  

It's on a hilly piece of ground, and now that I think about it, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.  There are at least 5 holes that come to mind that are probably worth the short trip.  

Matt,

Sadly, I feel somewhat unqualified to provide you with a personal Pennsylvania Top ten.  There are just too many highly-regarded courses in the state that I haven't played to feel that I'd do it justice.  

I also am much less of a classical bigot than I might appear at times.  As you know, I really do try to seek out new courses by modern architects and have tried to use this board to point out some of the better ones I've played in recent years (i.e. Twisted Dune, Blue Heron Pines East, Frog Hollow, Barefoot Resort (Norman), Blackwolf Run (River), and others).  I also find that I approach each new course I play with a sort of unbridled optimism that I will enjoy the course.  Generally, I always do, but as a pseudo-critic of golf course architecture, part of me is always looking at the course from a critical viewpoint.  

To specifically address your points about Mystic Rock, I put it into the category of recent Dye efforts that try to be hard as nails and overdone in terms of man-made features.  In a way, I feel that Dye has largely done what I'd call a parody of his style in recent years in some type of misguided effort to top his earlier controversial efforts.  I wish this weren't the case, because I have the highest respect for all that he has done to elevate architecture during his storied career.  

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