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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2001, 05:37:00 PM »
Pat,
Should be in town on the 11th but my schedule is still uncertain.

Belown is a post I did a while back on Lancaster vs. Lehigh.  I love both courses and you have to nit pick to find complaints about either one.  

---

Flynn did Lancaster in I believe 1920 while Lehigh was 1927. Both properties are on hilly terrain. I think the routing is good at Lancaster but it's shear genius at Lehigh. Here's my brief hole vs. hole comparison:

#1 - Both are good opening par fours. Lehigh's has more options but I'll call it a draw to start things off. All even.

#2 - Two short par fours but Lehigh's wins hands down with its hogsback fairway and numerous shot choices. Lehigh 1 up.

#3 - Both great holes, Lehigh's a long but thought provoking par three and Lancaster's a medium length par four from an elevated tee to reasonably generous landing area back to a blind green set on the side of a hill. Lehigh still 1 up.

#4 - Two more outstanding par fours with a stream in play off the tee. Too close to call. Lehigh still 1 up.

#5 - This time two dogleg par fours, Lancaster's goes left to a heavily sloped landing area set well above the green which is along side a water hazard. Lehigh's goes right and slightly back up hill to a narrow and innocent looking but treacherous green. Very evenly matched. Lehigh still 1 up.

#6 - Cut the tree down on the left side of Lancaster's par three and you'll dramatically improve the hole. Still Lehigh's gambling par five with two cross/framing bunkers and the narrow entrance to the green is the winner. Lehigh 2 up.

#7 - Two water holes, Lehigh's a long drop shot par three and Lancaster's a reachable par five with a pond fronting the green right and a ditch with water left. Unless you've bombed it off the tee, the ditch left forces most every player to layup. Lehigh's par three offers one of the most harrowing shots on the course, but I'll hold back and call it a draw. Lehigh still 2 up.

#8 - Two uphill holes, Lehigh's a par four and Lancaster's a par three. Both great greensites. Call it another draw. Lehigh still 2 up.

#9 - Very solid and similar length par fours to finish the front side. Another draw. Lehigh 2 up through nine.

#10 - Two outstanding par fours to start the backside. Lehigh's features a bunker perfectly placed 50 yards short of a green the runs away from you. However, #10 might be the best hole on Lancaster's course. I'll give the edge to Lancaster. Lehigh now only 1 up.

#11 - Another strong par four at Lancaster but no comparison to the risk/reward par five at Lehigh. Lehigh back to 2 up.

#12 - An modestly interesting elevated par three over water at Lancaster vs. a par four and Lehigh's most natural golf hole skirting along the Lehigh stream and base of the hillside. Lehigh goes to 3 up.

#13 - Ackward wrap around dog leg par five at Lancaster vs. Lehigh's best par three along the water. Lehigh goes 4 up.

#14 - Two good par fours. Might be Lehigh's best overall green (punchbowl green). However, we'll call it a draw and keep Lehigh 4 up.

#15 - Long dogleg right par four at Lancaster vs. short dogleg right par four at Lehigh. Both different but outstanding holes. Lehigh still 4 up.

#16 - Excellent short par four with a heavily bunkered landing area at Lancaster. Slightly downhill par three to heavily bunkered and shallow green at Lehigh. Give Lancaster the edge and call it Lehigh 3 up.

#17 - Good medium length par three at Lancaster but great par four at Lehigh. Lehigh 4 up.

#18 - Two long finishing par fours. Extremely severe false front green at Lancaster while Lehigh's is large and open in front but the surface is blind. I think Lehigh's hole is prettier and has more options but let's call it a draw. Lehigh wins 4 up.

Again, both are excellent courses and a number of holes could go either way.  Much is about personal preference.  Ran might want to take a crack at this since he just played both.  One thing about Lehigh there is not a marginal or uninteresting hole in the 18.  There are not many courses that I have played where I can say that.  

Mark


ted janeczek

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2001, 06:31:00 AM »
mr toomey: be it far from me to think that my opinion would proceed that of a ryder cupper, however, it is still one man's opinion. i played lancaster with rick gibson, the head pro, and he bombs it off the tee, and  was never really taxed yardage-wise. it's just not long enough for the new age players. in my opinion.    

TEPaul

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2001, 06:51:00 AM »
Mark:

I like your Lancaster/Lehigh comparison to a large degree although I really do hate comparing two good courses in match play.

However, I would personally give the nod to Lancaster's #18 and definitely give the nod to Lehigh's #10! The latter is one of the best par 4s I've ever seen just using the natural sideslope on the drive with a dead-on perfectly placed driving bunker left and for the approach the mid-fairway bunker is the best deception I've ever seen of it's kind and can play perfectly with the slightly unusual slope of the green. It's a great natural landform for golf and Flynn did just the right architecture and just the right amount of it on that hole. The hole may not be that hard but to hit the right shots on it and to see what happens makes it one of the best I've ever seen.


Billy_F

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2001, 07:02:00 AM »
Lehigh and Lancaster are both outstanding courses.  Having played both, however, it seems that giving Lehigh a four shot victory in comparison to Lancaster is more a product of a member's irrational exuberance for his home course than reality.  Of course I understand that Lehigh beat Merion 2 up and halved with PV.

ted janeczek

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2001, 07:29:00 AM »
billy f: you are so right on! i had the same afterthought but didn't express it. members are rarely objective about their own courses. they're either too critical or living in another world.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2001, 08:32:00 PM »
Tom,
Like I said, it's hard to make a wrong choice among so many good holes.

Billy and Ted,
You're right, it is hard to not hold a bias and many times I am invited to play a course because a member says how good it is.  I have to say, most times I come away disappointed.  

I've seen a lot of good courses over the years and I try to call them like I see them.  Maybe Ran will chime in as I know he likes match play and I know what his opinion is regarding the two courses.  From my standpoint, both are great courses and you can't go wrong playing either one.

Mark


ted janeczek

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2001, 09:51:00 AM »
mark: thanks for accepting my comment in the vein it was presented in. i, too, can be accused of "loving" some of my home courses somewhat blindly. not so with hershey cc, but certainly with moselem springs (maybe not rightfully so) and sand hills. at the end of the day i would be happy to go back to either of lehigh and lancaster. we are fortunate to have them so close by.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2001, 11:34:00 AM »
Ted,
Moselem Springs is a wonderful golf course.  Most probably don't realize the course did hold a Women's U.S. Open and was ranked in the Top 100 years ago.  It has some outstanding golf holes.  With some touching up (restoration not renovation), it could really be good.
Mark

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
Ted or Billy F -

How about offering something more to counter Mark's argument? He took the time to try to reason things out - maybe you could enlighten us as to where you feel his enthusiasm got the better of him.

Ted -

Didn't you play Fox Chapel or Field Club about a month ago? How about some comments there, too?

In case you can't tell, I'm itching for more info!

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2001, 04:07:00 PM »
Mark-
Given the courses you've played, it doesn't come as a surprise that you're sometimes slightly disappointed by other people's
"great home courses."  

Also, how much of Lehigh is unadultered Flynn?


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2001, 05:33:00 AM »
Craig,
My standards are very high and I can be very critical about whether I like or don't like a golf course.   But that doesn't mean I'm always right in my assesment.  It just means I have strong opinions, can't you tell in my posts    If someone thinks their course is great then it is great and that's what is most important.  I'd hate to be the one to convince them otherwise.    

When I first started talking about Lehigh I was somewhat guarded in my opinions.  I knew how it compared to what I had played but I  still felt people would think I was biased since I decided to become a member of the club.  It really wasn't until I started to get some outside opinions from very respected individuals that I spoke more about it.  You eventually get a bit more confident in your assesment when people like Doak write an article stating Lehigh "is better than half the prestigious Top-100 lists that ignore it"!  It is a course that needs to be studied and played often to really appreciate its subleties.

Lehigh according to John Chassard is 90-95% unadulterated Flynn.
Mark  


T.M.

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2001, 06:07:00 PM »
Lehigh is truly a wonderful design.  Flynn did a top-notch job with this property.

Why doesn't it get the respect it deserves?  Perhaps it's because of its proximity to Philly's other great Flynn designs?  However, I suspect it's more due to being next door to Saucon Valley CC whose courses have from time to time appeared in different ratings.  SVCC's overall atmosphere gives it the leg up, rightly or wrongly, on L.C.C.


Paul Turner

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2001, 06:40:00 AM »
I had a fine time playing Lehigh last week with BillV; what a daring course and rather unusual with that clever routing!

The terrain is severe but the charming rolls and ridges on many fairways, particularly on 2,8,10,15, add plenty of character and encourage the better player to shape tee shots that flirt with fairway bunkers.

Ran's comment about the bunker shoulders creating plenty of short game interest is dead right.  I was constantly under-reading putts and the breaks were not easy to see.  I wonder how much those shoulders have built up over time?

Favourite hole was probably the 10th with run up option past the central bunker.  And the 2,8,15 were unusually good uphill holes.  The 15th in particular with its slightly sunken green.  

I haven't seen many fine parkland courses (none really of this calibre in the UK) but I have walked Ridgewood and I thought Lehigh CC was at least of comparable quality with any 18 combination there.


Matt_Ward

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2001, 08:27:00 PM »
Had the pleasure in playing Lehigh CC with Mark Fine, Leigh Taylor and a good friend of mine (Bill Walmsely) who enjoyed his 43rd birthday on a gem of a course yesterday.

Also present were BillV, Mike Cirba and Scott Burroughs.

Lehigh CC is everything that so many people say it is. As a GD rater I have to confess ignorance about the greatness of Lehigh CC for such a long time. Even though I have played 90 of the current 100 Greatest as listed by the magazine I have to say Lehigh is a course that has plenty to offer and in my mind is a bonafide contender to join such elite company with one or two modifications.

The green complexes are some of the finest I've ever played. You MUST constantly watch where you position the ball. You MUST also have sound playing complete skills because having the skill to play one type of shot will not suffice. I will also emphasize that missing on the short side of ANY hole is a sure formula for disaster unless you have Seve type recovery skills! My chop efforts at #15 prove this point!

There are a number of outstanding holes that others have covered far better than I could describe -- but I have to say I absolutely loved Flynn's wherewithal in designing classic uphill type holes such as the 2nd, 8th and 14th. Why such holes are not being added to many modern designs today is really disturbing.

The land is clearly top notch and the routing by Flynn is superb. The lone weakness? Ran mentioned it in his original thread. The golf course lacks a few strong par-4's of serious length. Before anyone chops my head off and says I'm looking at the course only as it relates to my game I do believe extensions to the existing tees at #1 and #18 are appropriate and would not take away from Flynn's original effort. And, given the daily wind patterns, you would have to play at least one of them into a headwind as the first played yesterday!

Adding about 20-30 yards for each of these holes with a tee pad extensions would really add some muscle. I believe the greens at both holes could handle the longer approach shots that would be played. Lehigh has probably some of the finest array of medium length par-4's I've played in quite some time. The course is strong in this regard and the greens do not suffer fools at anytime. Bump on a few more yards at the holes I've mentioned and you have a course that minus Oakmont and Merion / East, in my mind, has the merits to make a serious claim for the 3rd best course in the Keystone State. In my mind it is no less than 6-7 now!

How Golf Digest failed to list Lehigh CC among the top 25 courses in PA today is an absolute oversight that borders on outright stupidity given some of the names listed ahead of it. Any person who truly loves golf and classic design had best put Lehigh on your "to do" list.

It's that good and should not be missed. On the Doak scale I'd give it a solid 7.5 and if the par-4's I've mentioned could be somewhat lengthened I'd go even higher to an 8.

Regards,

mw


BillV

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2001, 09:47:00 AM »
Matt

Sorry I was feeling like a warmed over dead dog yesterday and not up to a more spirited discussion.  Glad that you liked 15, I call it the hardest par on the course.  Geoff Childs hit into the right bunker once and I told him that par was 4 from that point and he scoffed before picking it up after 3-4 more strokes!  Of note, I got up and down from that bunker for par yesterday for the first time in recent memory.  369 is plenty enough for #15.

Of note, there have been several back tees added and removed at Lehigh and the last was a back tee on the 13th, which you'll probably agree it doesn't need.

I think the green complexes at Lehigh are apropos the discussion of the short/mid length par 4 thread, it really all depends on the strategy inherent.  I think the concept of using every club in the bag is over-rated and Lehigh an example.  Interestingly, 1 and 18 are probably hte least contoured greens on the course, but they don't yield a flock of birdies.

So go figure.


Paul Turner

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2001, 09:57:00 AM »
oops, I got 14 and 15 mixed up!

Patrick_Mucci

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »
Bill V and Mark FIne,

The present course provides for an enjoyable, yet challenging test, day in and day out.  A fun, sporty track that you'll never get tired of.  Who could ask for anything more ?


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2001, 11:02:00 AM »
I enjoyed playing with Matt, Bill and another GD panelist Leigh Taylor.  We had a great day to say the least.  Bill has seen Matt's power display before but Leigh and I just watched in awe as Matt routinely carried the ball 280-300 yards in the air!! He wasn't even using his best driver as he had recently just "crushed in the face, AGAIN"!!  There is no such thing as a long par four for Matt!  Fortunately Lehigh has other ways of keeping the big hitters in check  

Leigh Taylor is a regular at many of the Philly courses (he was involved with the development of Inniscrone) and now can't believe he never made the short drive to Allentown.  He was sold on the course after only three holes!

It was also a pleasure to see Mike Cirba again and meet Scott Burroughs.  I know Mike loves to play here and I think Scott came away quite impressed.  

I'm glad everyone had a good day (though it's hard not to anytime you are playing golf).

Mark



BillV

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2001, 11:12:00 AM »
Patrick

Thanks for your kind comments on Lehigh, but I in no way support any lengthening of Lehigh CC.  It doesn't need it, and i don't think it would improve it. Any course will yield low scores to superior golf.  If your game is ragged at Lehigh, your score will suffer but you won't.  Feeling lousy, I played like a dog yesterday playing less than my best, but lost no balls.  Very important test of a golf course.  


Matt_Ward

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2001, 02:34:00 PM »
During our 19th hole discussion yesterday there was talk about where Lehigh should be rated among the best courses in PA.

I would be most interested in getting the viewpoints of people most familiar with golf in the Keystone State. I've played a good bit and say the course should be about 6-7 ranked. How do others feel?

P.S. My suggestion for added length at #1 and #18 is just a personal viewpoint and is in no way a defect of this gem Flynn design. I just think a few added yards would only add to its already stellar reputation. Just a humble opinion.

BillV & Mark Fine: Next time I play #15 I'll be watching my approach shot more carefully. Superb short par-4! They should call th eleft side bunker"coffin" because once you go in your likely to be buried right there!!! Also, loved the drive and approach to #17.

I also find it hard to believe the course is not sloped and course rated a bit higher than it is actually is. A total of less than 130 from the back tees seems a bit light given the terrain and severity of the greens. I'd appreciate any comments.

Thanks ...


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2001, 06:36:00 PM »
Matt,
I've played every course but one or two on GD's past few PA state lists.  I'd be curious to hear what courses you would rate higher.  PA has four courses that GD has in the Top 100 and I give Lehigh the edge over two of those.
Mark

Tommy_Naccarato

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
Now trying to sound negative about a course I enjoy..... Mark, what are some things YOU don't care for at Lehigh?

Mike_Cirba

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2001, 07:17:00 PM »
What a great day!

8:00 am at Donald Ross's Lulu Country Club with Steve Sayers and Scott Burroughs as the lead-off group of the day.  I brought my Z-game, but had a lot of interesting discussion and great camaraderie nonetheless.  Steve is actively assisting the club in putting together a complete restoration plan that is being conceived by Ron Forse.  I'd love to see some others like Ed Baker contact Steve to provide helpful hints as to how best to approach intra-club dynamics.  The basic guts of the course there are way too good to leave it as tree-overgrown as it is presently.  The club has some fabulous old aerials that should help to make the case.

1:10 at Lehigh playing again with long-hitting Scott who defies the laws of physics with his choked-down grip.  Our host was the inimitable Dr. BillV, who was gracious as ever despite feeling down with a GI bug.  Afterwards, some jovial discussion with Mark, Matt, Leigh, Bill, Bill, & Scott followed on the patio, where we solved all the golf problems of the world in short order.  Lehigh's stellar superintendent John Chassard graciously joined us for three holes, complementing the day.

It was great to see everyone yesterday, particularly on such fine classic courses.  Thanks to everyone for their wonderful company.  Golf is truly a game like no other.  


BillV

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2001, 04:08:00 AM »
Matt

Interesting comment about rating/slope as Paul Turner had exactly the same comments to me a week before on our round.  JohnV has played the course and has been an Oregon Slope/Rating team member for years and I don't remember him having any negative comments about the numbers.  Maybe if his computer is now hooked up in Santa Cruz he can comment.

I have found that courses that require more of your short game tend to be viewed in the way Matt described.  Courses with more emphasis on length and lost ball hazards have higher slope numbers.  It is not easy to lose a ball at Lehigh.  OB rarely in play and only the one small river.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2001, 04:57:00 AM »
Tommy,
Good question.  The course is not perfect and I don't give it a 9 or 10 so it has issues.  I've said before, I put it in the 7.5 to 8 range.  The one thing that is happening at Lehigh that will definitely move it to an 8 is the expansion of the fairways.  Many of the detached bunkers will now have fairway up to and around them like on #1 and #18 just to mention two.  The strategy on those holes will definitely be improved.  So that is one weakness that will be solved in time without "modifying" the actual design.

Although John has done an outstanding job with the trees (you never feel claustrophobic on the course), there are a few here and there that should be removed.  The willow right of the stream on #4 will eventually come out, the old birch tree just past the fairway bunker on #8 will eventually come out and a few others.  In general though, most parkland courses could learn from the way Lehigh has managed their trees!

Firmness of the turf is another issue.  Again John does a great job but has many members pushing for soft and lush green conditions.  When Lehigh is a little rough around the edges and has dried out, the course is the most fun to play.  When we had that drought last year, I was out there as often as possible!

A lot comes down to personal preference.  I'll can't imagine ever giving the course a 9 or 10, it doesn't deserve that compared to all the courses I have seen.  For the severness of the site, I think Flynn got every bit out of the property that any architect could have.  Some properties will only yield so much no matter how brilliant the design might be.  I think an 8 is the best anyone could have done!

Maybe I'm too hard, maybe I'm too soft, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it  

Mark  


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