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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« on: September 16, 2001, 06:40:00 PM »
Clearly it must have some as none of the major golf publications have ever ranked it.

So what are they?

...a poor architect/design? Nope, William Flynn was OK the last time I checked.

...a poor piece of property? Nope, unless playing in the foothills with plenty of unique topo in and across a river valley is out of vogue.

...the design has been tampered with/modernized/ruined? Nope, it is 90% plus pure Flynn and the Club jealously guards that distinction with great pride.

...poor conditioning? Nope, just the opposite. The course plays firm and fast so that the bunker that is 25 yards shy of the fallaway 10th green is very much in play.

...weak holes? None and as for least favorites, there isn't a single logical candidate that three golfers would agree upon.

...lack of short game interest? Nope, just the opposite, especially with the way the bunker shoulders have built up with time. Several times, I was 25 feet from the hole and had at least 10 feet of break. Though the greens and their surrounds aren't overtly dramatic, there are an amazing number of areas where you are toast, with no hope of getting up and down.

...not hard enough? Only 70 shots to cover 6,600 yards.

...favorite type holes like short par fours and gambling par fives? Check to both.

...ambience? Plenty to spare.

So what can it be?

I truly don't know.

While it may not have any world class Flynn holes ala 11 and 16 Shinnecock Hills and 12 and 16 at The Cascades, it has a staggering number of very good holes (2,3,4,8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17, and 18) with the remaining 5 holes being fine holes in their own right.

The tiger golfer may say that there isn't a par four over 430 yards until the last hole.  Conversely, I would say that the 4 one shotters take up 800 yards and that there are only two par fives for the tiger to try and pillage. And trying to make up ground on these Flynn par fours is no easy task.

Overall, it is the kind of course that a member would love to belong to in that it is very much a chess game with the golfer continually needing to place himself in the best position for his next shot. Stop thinking and the strokes start adding up, though you are unlikely to loss a ball nor spend much time looking for one.

Such courses should be recognized by the major publications in their rankings and Mark Fine has captured Lehigh CC's charms very well on this site under his My Home Course entry.

Please check it out and tell me if the course seems to missing any of your favorite type holes.

Cheers,


Mike_Cirba

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2001, 06:48:00 PM »
Ran,

Glad to hear you enjoyed Lehigh.  I know you were looking forward to getting up there.  

Was the rating I shared with you accurate, or would you place it higher?  

As far as weaknesses, I think it's the lack of the spectacular, or the controversial (excepting perhaps 11).  It's also one of the best routings I've seen.

However, I would have to believe that its failure to crack the Top 100 lists is simply due to the fact that it has a history of being quite exclusive and I really don't think enough raters have made it out there to give due credit.    


Tommy_Naccarato

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2001, 07:11:00 PM »
Ran, Great post.

As Mark Fine has amply pointed at many times, Lehigh is the forgotten son, and a unfair one at that.

Case in point #1

Last year some time just after my return from my introduction to the Philly School, I couldn't remember in a post which course I played on Wednesday. Mark had to remind me, "Lehigh dummy!" (Well he wasn't that terse, but he should have been!

Case in point #2

After receiving much fanfare from myself and other Golfweek panelists, somehow, someone forgot to add Lehigh to the 2000 Golfweek ballot. Not needing to go into detail, that mistake will not be made again in 2001. I was assured of it. (Right Jon? )

Lehigh is Top 50 all the way. (Maybe better, we'll see.) I will let the rest of you to decide it's greatness by simply hitting-up Mark or Bill Vostinak to play there.

For me, one of Lehigh's greatest strengths is its routing. It's makes so much out of a pretty severe piece of terrain. I think ALL modern golf architects should venture to Allentown to see just how to route a golf course on such land.


Matt_Ward

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2001, 07:36:00 PM »
I'm scheduled to play Lehigh this week w Mark and I most eager to see what everyone raves about.

APBernstein

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2001, 08:47:00 AM »
If ambience is considered almost hitting Bill Vostinak in the car park, than you are right, Lehigh has plenty to spare.

But on the merits of the course, there is nothing to say that hasn't or will be said.  But let me say that I don't think there is a finer course from 60 yards and in, at least that I have seen.  The 10th green complex (and by complex I am including the bunker 25 yards short of the green) is one of the finest I have witnessed to date.


Tommy_Naccarato

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2001, 04:26:00 AM »
In trying to answer the weakness part of the topic, I think that if one had to really nitpick, and I mean nitpick, it would be the grass bunkering on Mark Fine's beloved 11th and at the 13th. It just is so out of character for the rest of the course.

Knowing that it is being utilized because of washouts by the river makes it a little more digestable, but if there was one fault, it would have to be that.


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2001, 04:58:00 AM »
Forgive me, but the immediate answer that popped into my mind when I read the question was "the membership?"

Seriously, I'll be teeing it up at Lehigh for certain (assuming they let me) when in the area - although I can't imagine when that'd be.  It will become the answer to Ran's other question:  Which courses has this site steered you to?


BillV

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2001, 05:41:00 AM »
Lehigh lacks a demand for length.  (This is a good thing-Driver 4-iron par 4's geet boring).  Everyone who knows me calls me a long hitter, but I understand that Matt Ward is 30 yards longer.  We'll see what Matt says later this week.

There are not wild green contours for those that demand them.  There are a few wild putts, but generally you really really need to know how to read greens.

A pond is sadly lacking.  No place to put a fountain.

It is hard on the pro shop staff as it is hard to lose a ball at Lehigh.  It is also difficult to hit OB.

The membership has sticks in the muds, ignorant of the courses greatness?  None I've yet met.

Just let me know if you want to tee it up.  A pleasant time is guaranteed for all.  But I won't ride in a cart.  You'll drive and I'll walk if no caddies are available.  

Notes:

#5 is a better hole than Ran remembers.  Tom Doak's favorite green complex as I remember.

The grass bunkers on #11 and 13? It is a maintenance issue, I only object to their hard edges.  Softer edges would fit in even better.


APBernstein

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2001, 05:44:00 AM »
Tommy:

Knowing the origins of the grass bunkers, we are both a little more respectful of their existence.  However, that is not to say that they could not be improved stopping short of their complete removal.

For my tastes, the edges of these grass bunkers are a little too sharp.  Without seeing this idea actually on the ground, I'm not sure how it would work, but: what if they gradually fed them into the green surrounds and mowed them to fairway heighth.  Once again, maybe it would look a but out of character for the course, but I think the overall would be much improved.

Only an idea.

All the best,


GeoffreyC

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2001, 06:38:00 AM »
I would say that having TWO dropshot 220 (??) yard par 3's is one too many.  I really like the 3rd hole so I guess the charming shot over the little Lehigh should go.

I also didn't care for the 11th very much. The layup 2nd shot down that steep rough covered hill to a small area in front of the pond wann't that inspiring to me.

Ran- you asked for weaknesses so those are the ones I see. The strengths are well documented here on GCA so no need for me to repeat them.


Patrick_Mucci

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2001, 07:34:00 AM »
Ran,

You pose a good question.

Could it be that there are so many good courses in the Metropolitan New York and Philadelphia areas that being a little remote, Lehigh gets unnoticed or pushed aside.

The walk from # 1 green to # 2 tee might start raters off on the wrong foot.

Perhaps the overabundance of flower beds and plantings around tees is not well received by the raters.

The hilly nature may negetively affect "out of shape" raters.

Due to the length of today's player, perhaps distance plays a part.

I agree with Tommy N, in that I would rather see # 11 green surrounded with sand not grass bunkers.  If the money is there to plant and maintain all those flower beds and plantings, the money should be there to refill or regroom the sand bunkers after a flood.

Some trees need to be trimmed or removed.

But, I go back to the remote aspect, If Lehigh was closer to NYC or PHIl, I think it would be given a higher ranking.

It's a very good course, and enjoyable to play day in and day out.  It should be ranked higher.

But, that's just my opinion.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2001, 12:14:00 PM »
Nice post Ran and everyone else as well.  I know you guys all like the golf course.  It would interesting to hear from those who don't rate it so highly.  

I personally feel "exposure" or lack there of is Lehigh's biggest weakness.  Anyone with an eye for what makes a great golf course that has seen Lehigh has had little to complain about.  You guys are perfect examples.  Problem has been that not enough people like yourselves have come to play it.  Furthermore, like most great courses, they have to be studied to really understand just how good they are.  Someone who doesn't have as keen an eye as all of you will miss many of the subtle features that distinguish it from the rest.  

Mark


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2001, 02:29:00 PM »
It's hard for me to imagine length would be an issue for anyone but the longest of hitters. Several of the par 4s that appeared to be of modest length on the scorecard played uphill & thus longer. Additionally, the green complexes were so good that it didn't help that much to have a short iron in. Of course, I'm a mediocre golfer, so maybe that explains that.

The only thing that would be curious to know would be if the bunkers played tougher in the good old days. Being a mid handicapper, I generally struggle with bunker play, but I didn't have too much trouble with them, & I was in a bunch. Maybe the damp conditions helped me on this issue.

I didn't think of #3 as a drop shotter at all, just a tough long par 3. There is no way I would get rid of the other "drop shot" par 3, #7 - far & away the best "drop shot" par 3 I've ever played(though I haven't played that many - sorry Matt Ward ).

For a course that didn't seem too tough, when I added up my score at the end, it was tougher than I realized. Played Inniscrone to my handicap, but not Lehigh.

Can't wait to tee it up sometime with Bill V & Matt Ward & see what real length is!

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

BillV

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2001, 02:56:00 PM »
I want to state that generally I generally am indifferent todownhill shots and especially drop shot par 3's.  Lehigh 7 is always fun to look forward to.
#3 is a long hard par 3, not a drop shot.

The only hole I really think has weaknesses is the high handicapper playing #11.  It can require 5 or more reasonably good shots for such a player to reach the green.  It is great fun for a very good player. (Comments from Mark coming!   )

Hit, lay-up#1, lay-up #2. lay-up #3, etc  


GeoffreyC

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2001, 04:37:00 PM »
I stand corrected on the two par 3's.  I did call the drop shot hole over the little lehigh "charming"   I believe I hit 3-wood on 3 and 4 iron on the drop shot hole.

My error. - I stand pat on #11.

Ran did ask for weaknesses and bar PV every course has some. Even PV is clearing out trees growing in on bunkers and obstructing views.  I really liked Lehigh in case any one thought otherwise and believe it belongs on a top 100 list.


archie_struthers

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What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2001, 04:57:00 PM »
Really like Lehigh and have a good friend in the superintendent John Chassard, he knows his business. Lehigh may suffer by comparison because of Lancaster CC, an excellent Flynn course that is close by and generally is considered superior. No glaring weaknesses, one questionable tee shot. Great greens, impeccable condition, but then again, I'm a big Flynn fan!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2001, 06:05:00 PM »
Bill,
My 6 year old son played in the two day 2-hole (8 and under club championship).  The second day they played #10 and #11.  On #11 he hit driver, driver, driver, then 5I over the creek.  It took him five or six more shots from there to finish out the hole but that is another story    Remember his driver is probably a foot shorter than your wedge.  Actually, Kevin finished second in the tournament and won his first golf trophy.  He has a better swing than his father but that's not saying much.  

Lancaster is my second favorite Flynn in the area.  Maybe Ran will comment further as he played there right after playing Lehigh.
Mark



TEPaul

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2001, 08:47:00 AM »
Great question Ran!

Lehigh is a real sleeper--no doubt about it! I too have become super fascinated by the course in the last year or two.

Because Lehigh has not gotten the recognition it deserves in the rankings I guess it's natural that people would look for weaknesses in the course.  

Maybe there are a few small weaknesses in Lehigh but I think it's important not to try to make the course into something it isn't and probably was never meant to be. I really don't think Lehigh is or was supposed to be a big full-blown championship golf course of the type of Shinnecock or even the complicated and unique architecture of Huntingdon Valley with it's demanding topogrophy and ever-present thin-margin danger making the latter a "championship" course in a scoring sense.

Lehigh, to me, is a really solid members' course, for probably every level of player  period, and should be respected and ranked as such.

Lehigh is proof, again, that Flynn was probably the most clever and inventive course router in the history of the game! Flynn seem better able to "roll around" the sites of the projects he took on and deal with the topographical constraints architects' generally face, and make those constraints more interesting for golf than any other!

Flynn "butted into" hillsides and such more inventively for golf than any other architect I've ever seen. He designed holes as well as any other I've ever seen on sideslopes too! At least three holes on Lehigh use dropped elevations as well as any other architect! Flynn seems somehow to pull off radicalness without being too radical somehow. It might be instructive for us architecture addicts to remember and to truly understand that Flynn himself was a pretty "radical" guy (sort of a daredevil) and certainly that showed in his architectural expression!

As true as that may be to someone like me, it's extra interesting to observe the subtle and simple architectural brilliance of some of his other holes at Lehigh. For vastly differing reasons I would put these holes into that subtly brilliant category with exclamation marks; #1!, #2!!, #5!!!, #10!!!!, #15!!!! Most of the others holes have already spoken for themselves in their drama and uniqueness (not subtle)!

Other than his "rolling around on the site"  routing brilliance just mentioned, I personally, give his routing style a thumbs up for its variety and balance and the uniqueness of his "outside/inside" routing style in such evidence at Lehigh and certainly Huntingdon Valley and to a large degree Manufacturers and Lancaster too!

As most people notice, and Pat Mucci mentioned, the seemingly inconvenient walk from #1 green to #2 tee may be a bit of an architectural glitch. But is it? Not really! It is Flynn's one-time technique (if you think carefully about Lehigh's routing) of getting the entire front nine outside the entire back nine!!

But if you ask me what Lehigh's weaknesses are, I would say its par 5s! But probably not for the reasons you would think. It's important to note that Lehigh is a par 70 and its two par 5s are short "go/no go" par 5s, and very good ones! Most of the truly difficult (to score on) par 70s have par 5s (generally two) where it's not easy to make a par (ex. Pine Vally and Merion).

As Mark Fine said, in answer to my questions about Lehigh's two par 5s, that if you try to gamble with either too much you might run into trouble, but I really do maintain that if you don't try to gamble on these two par 5s they are basically two very simple holes to make par on! That to me in the only weakness the course has--but in the broad scheme of things (all the other varied and good holes) probaby a very small weakness at that!

To answer some other remarks on this thread, I also think that the look of the grass bunkering on #11 is dynamite! It gives the green complex from the fairway way above it a "shadowy" and undefined look which is wholly unique. The grass grass bunkering is also highly functional, particularly when you consider the river-side site of #11 green.

The two par 5s may be small points and probaby shouldn't really be considered weaknesses, unless you are thinking of some touring pro who would likely make mince meat out of the course. But, so what?


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2001, 05:45:00 PM »
Tom,
Nice post.  Couldn't agree more about the 100 yard walk down the hill from #1 green to #2 tee.  

Regarding par fives, first comment I'll make is how many of the great courses have "great" par fives whether they are par 70, 71 or whatever?  Think about it!  Most have at least one or more marginal ones.  I could run through a long list if you want me to?

Actually I agree in principle with your comment that the two par fives at Lehigh (should be) easy pars.  But you know what, they are not as easy as you would think!  Just try to make par and not birdie or eagle you'll make more sixes than you'd imagine.  Those two bunkers that pinch in the layup area on #6 add a lot of anxiety to second shots.  And the layup on #11 as well as the third shot in are no gimmies.  

The beauty of those two holes is that they tempt the golfer to play for eagle.  Few decent golfers approach those holes thinking "let me just play for a par".   But at the same time they are still very playable for most golfers and can yield a birdie for the average player who doesn't have the distance to go for the green in two.    

I do believe they are both excellent holes.  The green complex on #7 is so simple yet shear genius (most of Lehigh's greens are so simple yet so complex).  And #11 is my favorite hole on the course.  More pivitol things happen on that hole than any other during the course of a tournament.  Ask Ran how much fun it is hitting the shot he hit the day we played?

Again, Lehigh is missing exposure more than anything!
Mark


TEPaul

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2001, 01:52:00 AM »
Mark:

I do see your point to a degree about the fives at Lehigh. You certainly have played them more than me and I guess I should take your word about them on that.

But I feel that most really great courses's that have two par 5s have the kind that are sometimes hard to make par on and very hard to make birdie on! Probably unfortunately that usually entails some real length.

When a course gets into three par 5s or four or more then it's a good opportunity to make one or some of them short and tricky somehow!

I recognize that #6 Lehigh is quite tricky and that front tongue with a pin there is a total sucker pin. I would probably just try to get behind it (for obvious reasons) and putt back which is what I did on purpose last time and sunk the putt after hitting my first approach about half fat!


BillV

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2001, 03:19:00 AM »
Interesting to read, I thought Mucci's comment about the walk from 1 green to 2 tee was "kidding".  It is a ridiculously short walk by modern architectural standards, shorter than the length of a skulled wedge. The walk from 6 green to 7 tee is longer.

I won't comment on #11 except to say it's not as easy a par as 6.


ted janeczek

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2001, 09:44:00 AM »
having played lehigh yesterday and lancaster 2 weeks ago i think comparing them is quite appropriate. they both have similarly fine routings over somewhat difficult land (more so lehigh); both have wonderful green contours, although i found lehigh's to be more consistently challenging. as for bunkering, it's a bit difficult to compare since lancaster's were largely redone recently by gil hanse. but i found the placement of lehigh's bunkers to be extremely effective ( as witnessed by the fact that as a twosome we were in a combination of at least 10 fairway and greenside bukers!) the condition of lehigh's bunkers was pga tour quality as noted by my playing partner who is director of the hershey open. both are wonderful examples of classic courses that have been lapped by the field of golf technology and the conditioning of today's athlete, but are most enjoyed by player's of more normal ability. i would rather play a lehigh or lancaster any day than an ocean course or a bulle rock; not just anyday, but every day. at the end of the day lehigh might suffer from it's proximity to lancaster and the fact that lancaster is ultimately a more difficult test of golf for a slightly broader group of golfers.  

archie

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2001, 04:40:00 PM »
Ted

You echo my sentiments. Love both courses but its probably not a coin flip, Lancaster has a slight edge. Given their proximity, it probably pushes Lehigh back  (in raters eyes) to the next tier.


H. Toomey

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2001, 04:43:00 PM »
Mr. Janeczek, how did you conclude that the modern player lapped this course(Lancaster)?  A three time Ryder Cup player tells me exactly the opposite. Whom am I to believe?

Patrick_Mucci

What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2001, 04:53:00 PM »
Mark Fine,

I still think the remote loation is the biggest impediment to Lehigh getting more recognition.  The same could be said of Lancaster.

What's you schdule on 10-11-01 ?


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