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81
This thread is so good.


Tim, this is a very difficult question. For every “too much” on a modern design, I can probably come up with something pretty big/severe/manufactured on a beloved older design.


I asked a bit tongue in cheek what Tom Simpson might say about some of the American classics where it’s clearly not very natural or minimalist. Tom D replied that of the courses I listed, Simpson would probably approve of Garden City the most. Having never been there, I’d have no reason to debate. But from an aerial, looking at the third hole alone, I’ve rarely seen a more bold and fascinating bunkering of a hole.


I say that to say this—to answer your question—I have no idea.


Ben,


I had the good fortune to play Garden City with Pat Mucci and Tommy Naccarato. That was probably twenty years ago, but I trust my memory enough to say the course was not too big, bold or manufactured.


Honestly, I don’t have a clear answer either. I need to see Tree Farm so I’m at least familiar with two of the courses Zachary Car cited, but based on drone footage it didn’t strike me as “too big, bold and manufactured”.


Rather than taking a swipe at GCA participants and trying too hard to sound academic, Car would have done better to offer a definition of what “too big, bold and manufactured” means or just not used the phase in an article about golf architecture.
82
This thread is so good.


Tim, this is a very difficult question. For every “too much” on a modern design, I can probably come up with something pretty big/severe/manufactured on a beloved older design.


I asked a bit tongue in cheek what Tom Simpson might say about some of the American classics where it’s clearly not very natural or minimalist. Tom D replied that of the courses I listed, Simpson would probably approve of Garden City the most. Having never been there, I’d have no reason to debate. But from an aerial, looking at the third hole alone, I’ve rarely seen a more bold and fascinating bunkering of a hole.


I say that to say this—to answer your question—I have no idea.
83
Golf Course Architecture / Re: The Death of Minimalism
« Last post by Michael Chadwick on March 26, 2024, 11:15:50 PM »
I really didn’t mean for this to turn into a pile-on. I’m glad someone is thinking academically about this subject. The older I get the more it matters to me. Zachary has written some thoughtful stuff.


Very much so. A lot of golf writing doesn't have the courage to have a stake in its thesis. There are a lot of anodyne reviews on social media that encourage little to no discussion. Zachary's article presents a deliberate point of view and a defensible position, regardless of whether we agree with its points or not. It's a successful article on the basis of that alone.   
84
We are in an era of golf course design where the golf matters but the look of the golf course matters more. And since many up and comers come from design trees that preached art first and formost, it’s only natural that bigger, louder art seems the direction to take to build a practice.


Do you really think that Bill Coore or I preached art first and foremost?  The golf is always first and foremost for us - that’s our role in the process.  The art has been the associates’ job, but if they go off without us it is their responsibility to get the golf right first.  And that is exactly the transition that some will be successful at, but most will not.
85
Golf Course Architecture / Re: False fronts on greens
« Last post by James Bennett on March 26, 2024, 10:23:20 PM »
On an uphill approach, there are four choices for the architect that I can think of.


1. Have a false front which then permits a player to run the ball onto the green, but it also allows a weaker ball to roll back.
2. Have a raised front edge which makes the green surface blind and prevents a ball running onto the green because of the steeper approach slope required.
3. Locate the green further back up the hill where the slope surrounding the green is gentler, and a false front is not necessary.  Of course, this also results in a blind approach shot where perhaps the top of the flag only can be seen.
4. locate the green at the bottom of the slope.  This results in a much shorter hole and a longer walk to the next tee.


I think option 1 can be an excellent option.


Regarding the decision about whether the sloped approach should be cut as green or approach - I am happy to have it as green as it increases the options for play.  Options are good, as are having a greater range of outcomes for a shot (eg putting off the green.  Something memorable).


James B
86
Golf Course Architecture / Re: HighGrove GC in Venus, FL designed by Gil Hanse
« Last post by Steve_Roths on March 26, 2024, 10:19:53 PM »
Looks solid based on the routing.
87
Golf Course Architecture / Re: OT-Cal Club logo ball
« Last post by Steve_Roths on March 26, 2024, 10:19:24 PM »
Funny story.  Went to Cabo to play Cabo Del Sol and Diamante.  Had the logo balls in my backpack for some reason going through airport security.  They don't allow that and I had to hand them over.


I sent each club pro a letter and $20 US to cover a new ball and shipping.


Never heard back.


Ended up buying both off of Ebay to keep my golf ball racks up to date.

My coworker had a long laugh about the $20 when I realized I should have started with one club first.
88
Golf Course Architecture / Re: OT-Cal Club logo ball
« Last post by Stewart Abramson on March 26, 2024, 10:05:33 PM »
As pretentious as it sounds, I collect logo balls from courses I have played.

Nigel


Doesn't seem pretentious to me. There's a logo golf ball collectors group on FB. I just posted a request for a Cal Club ball there. I'll DM you if someone there has one available
89
We are in an era of golf course design where the golf matters but the look of the golf course matters more. And since many up and comers come from design trees that preached art first and formost, it’s only natural that bigger, louder art seems the direction to take to build a practice.  And add in that most designers now are also shapers who have become expert constructors.  So we have great art and the ability to support it with great construction.  I think sometimes the golf itself is secondary as it feels like a great golf round is now about a great “experience”. I’ll take a firm and fast links type experience 10 times out of 10 over experiencing another great art form.
Don,


I’m curious about your view: what is “too big, bold and manufactured”?
90
Golf Course Architecture / Re: OT-Cal Club logo ball
« Last post by Tommy Williamsen on March 26, 2024, 09:42:13 PM »
As pretentious as it sounds, I collect logo balls from courses I have played. It is a long story, but I no longer possess a Cal Club logo ball. I was wondering if anyone has a spare one they would be willing to sell me? I could Venmo or PayPal the money to you for the ball/shipping. It does not even have to be brand new. Yes, I did contact Cal Club, but they are unable to sell me one (At least not mail it to Indiana.) Please send me DM, and let this ridiculous post fade to oblivion if you can help.


Thanks in advance,


Nigel


Nigel, I have a friend who collects logo balls as well. When he loses one or needs one, he mails the club a self-addressed stamped box with a check and asks them to post the box with the ball inside. It works almost all the time.
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