Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Brian Finn on December 07, 2017, 08:59:08 PM

Title: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 07, 2017, 08:59:08 PM
Following the lead of the Michigan contingent, a group of Ohio-based contributors (past & present) submitted their ratings for the best courses in Ohio.  In this golf-rich state, perhaps best known for the "Big 4" of Columbus, the Northeast proves to have the deepest bench of courses that appeal to gca enthusiasts.  You have to go to the opposite end of the state to find top-rated Camargo, but the list shows that you need not go far from any point in Ohio to find an architectural gem. 

          Notes: 
          a. Below list revised (December 12th) to include additional voters
          b. Original list (December 7th) saved in reply #36
          c.  Added:  Portage CC (#20), Sand Ridge (#36)
          d. Dropped:  Wedgewood, Miami Valley

1.  Camargo 8.76
2.  The Golf Club 8.25
3.  Brookside (Canton) 8.15
4.  Moraine 8.03
5.  Kirtland 7.96
6.  The Country Club 7.64
7.  Muirfield Village 7.59
8.  Inverness 7.34
9.  Canterbury 7.29
10. Scioto 7.19
11. Pepper Pike Club 7.14
12. Springfield 6.86
13. Double Eagle 6.80
14. NCR S 6.67
15. Fowlers Mill 6.55
16. Sleepy Hollow 6.48
17. Hyde Park 6.45
18. Elyria 6.43
19. Firestone S 6.40
20. Portage CC 6.27
21. OSU Scarlet 6.17
22. Brookside (Columbus) 6.16
23. Mayfield CC 6.13
24. Westbrook 6.10
25. Sugarbush 6.08
26. Sylvania CC 5.98
27. Urbana 5.98
28. Maketewah 5.98
29. Congress Lake 5.91
30. Denison (Granville) 5.88
31. Firestone N 5.81
32. Manakiki 5.79
33. Shaker Heights 5.79
34. Columbus CC 5.78
35. Pinnacle 5.76
36. Sand Ridge 5.73
37. Lakewood 5.72
38. Hickory Hills 5.70
39. Clovernook 5.68
40. Stonelick Hills 5.65

Thank you to the many contributors who participated in building out this list. We'll soon be sharing write-ups of many of the courses on the list, drafted by those that know and love them best. 

I look forward to hearing from the broader group concerning the (de)merits of the list.  Any courses you expected to see that aren't represented?  Any rankings unusually high or low, in your view?  Hopefully this list spurs some discussion, especially about courses that don't necessarily come up often on the site.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Jerry Kessler on December 07, 2017, 11:58:44 PM
With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?


While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Erik Mosley on December 08, 2017, 08:22:43 AM
Can't help but notice the lack of public courses on the list - is that 6 of the top 40?  I count Fowlers Mill, Sugar Bush, Sleepy Hollow, Denison, Manakiki, and Stonelick.  Might have missed one or two, but it's a bit disappointing in a state that has some pretty good public golf options.  Does it speak to the high quality of the privates or the "good, but not good enough" quality of the publics?


The big surprise for me is Sugar Bush at 20.  Is that the Sugar Bush in Garrettsville? It's a nice track and has "hidden gem" written all over it, but Sugar Bush at 20 while The Quarry and Boulder Creek don't make the list is the biggest surprise to me. Can't find much written about the course here...wouldn't mind a little write up on it to see what I'm missing!
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 08, 2017, 08:29:49 AM
I have to admit, I had never heard of Sugarbush prior to participating in this exercise.  I believe of the 70+ courses that received votes/rankings, it was the only one with which I was not familiar.

Concerning public courses, I was somewhat surprised to see so few make the top 40.  For what it is worth, 7 of the next 10 were public.

On that note, I was surprised by the low combined ranking of Longaberger(Virtues?).  I understand that dedicated walkers will downgrade it, but I still feel there is enough good golf there to put it comfortably in the top 40.  Of course, I guess that's why we do these lists - so we can talk about what we like (or don't) about each course.

Overnight, several additional people submitted their lists.  Anyone else who would like to contribute, please email me, and I will update the numbers some time soon.  With a somewhat limited sample size, every contributor genuinely adds to the strength of the numbers.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Joe Hellrung on December 08, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other.  I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list.  Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 08, 2017, 09:29:27 AM
With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?
While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.
Which holes at Springfield do you find uninspiring?  What about NCR do you feel makes it superior?

Personally, I have NCR ahead of Springfield, but not by much.  NCR had quite a wide distribution of ratings.  Seems to be a polarizing course.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: BHoover on December 08, 2017, 09:34:41 AM
Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other.  I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list.  Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.


This is only my opinion, but I suspect that at least 4 courses will rise in the rankings after the renovation/restoration work is completed and people have a chance to play them moreóInverness, Moraine, Canterbury, and Columbus CC.


The best part about these state ranking threads is that anyone is free to offer up his/her own opinion and rankings.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 08, 2017, 09:49:55 AM
Our first course write-up:

Inverness
Ben Cowan (Michigan)

I still pinch myself each time I stand on the 1st tee and look across the beautiful shaved bowl shared with the 10th hole, even after many times around this wonderful Ross course.   The course starts out with a gentle handshake and a few breathers before it administers pain.  The architectural aspect that I think is most overlooked at Inverness is the character around the greens.   The tie-ins are so good and the ever so slightly raised push-up greens have such simple, elegant definition.  The strong Ross greens have terrific variety.  You see many simple crowned greens (1st, 7th, 13th) that fit in well with the course, and then bold internal contoured greens like the (2nd, 10th, 12th). 

Most peopleís first time around they will be very impressed with the 4th (now 6th), 7th, and 18th holes.  My personal favorite is the 14th hole, where the bunker gives you the clue to hit a hard fade off the tee.  What I love about the hole is the reverse scale, where the green is very small for a long par 4.  The second shot requires less club and the player must anticipate how the ball will react to the ground short of the green.  There is a nice mound in the center of the green that is bold for such a small green. 

The course just went under the knife this year and will re-open next year.   3 of the 4 Fazio holes were removed and the last was altered a great deal.  A few Ross holes and features, along with a Nichols hole, are being restored on additional land owned by the club.  The original routing isnít able to be replicated with modern technology and lawyers today.  Lastly these changes have me so excited to play the course next year, I feel like a 10-year-old kid on Christmas.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: PCCraig on December 08, 2017, 09:54:26 AM
I don't have nearly the experience playing in Ohio that others do, but if a neat and fun Tillinghast course west of Cleveland is #39, then Ohio has a pretty deep bench of golf courses.


My grandfather was a member of Lakewood CC for many years and I always enjoyed playing the course. Some really fun (and severe) greens there, although it has long been in need of tree removal. It reminds me a lot of Rochester G&CC here in Minnesota. [size=78%]  [/size]
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Michael George on December 08, 2017, 09:58:40 AM
For what it is worth, I think the top 11 is pretty good....and in a pretty decent order.


I have a very difficult time differentiating between many of the courses in that top 11, but Brookside, Kirtland, CCPP, Canterbury and Pepper Pike Club each definitely deserve inclusion in that top 11 and I am glad that they received it.  As many who know me are aware, I love Canton Brookside and think it is a truly great golf course (certainly one of the best Ross courses in the country) and I really think it deserves to be that high.  Obviously, some will have MVGC much higher (if you can accept the houses) and others will have Inverness and Scioto higher (I am very excited to play Inverness post changes as many of the original holes are really special), but it is also very reasonable and justified to have them where they fall.  I would rely upon this list if visiting the state for golf and think Brian Finn did a good job.


However, I have no clue how you rank most of the courses after maybe the top 18.  I don't think it is top 11, but Sand Ridge should be on the list somewhere, same with Coldstream,and there are many other courses that are better than some on the bottom of this list.  For that reason, I would have probably stopped the list at 20 and replaced Sugarbush with one of many courses, like Sand Ridge, Coldstream, Shaker Heights, Congress Lake or Wedgewood.   


For disclosure, while having played most everything in Ohio, I didn't participate...........for no good reason other than I didn't get to it. 
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Michael Wolf on December 08, 2017, 10:03:04 AM
Glenview would be a Cincinnati public that I think would be worthy of a spot on the list if more people saw it. They've held USGA qualifiers there for decades.


I know several good players who prefer Coldstream over Camargo as a better test of their games. That's not what your list is trying to rank, but I do think Coldstream belongs somewhere on the list.


And Miamiview, on the border with Southern Indiana, has long been said to have the two hardest starting holes in the state.


My personal preferences:
Shaker Heights and Inverness would be higher
Double Eagle would be lower
Clovernook I think has the most opportunity to make a big move up the list if it was being properly looked after


MW
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 08, 2017, 10:31:34 AM
For what it is worth, I think the top 11 is pretty good....and in a pretty decent order.

I have a very difficult time differentiating between many of the courses in that top 11, but Brookside, Kirtland, CCPP, Canterbury and Pepper Pike Club each definitely deserve inclusion in that top 11 and I am glad that they received it.  As many who know me are aware, I love Canton Brookside and think it is a truly great golf course (certainly one of the best Ross courses in the country) and I really think it deserves to be that high.  Obviously, some will have MVGC much higher (if you can accept the houses) and others will have Inverness and Scioto higher (I am very excited to play Inverness post changes as many of the original holes are really special), but it is also very reasonable and justified to have them where they fall.  I would rely upon this list if visiting the state for golf and think Brian Finn did a good job.

However, I have no clue how you rank most of the courses after maybe the top 18.  I don't think it is top 11, but Sand Ridge should be on the list somewhere, same with Coldstream,and there are many other courses that are better than some on the bottom of this list.  For that reason, I would have probably stopped the list at 20 and replaced Sugarbush with one of many courses, like Sand Ridge, Coldstream, Shaker Heights, Congress Lake or Wedgewood.   

For disclosure, while having played most everything in Ohio, I didn't participate...........for no good reason other than I didn't get to it.
Thank you for your input, Michael.  You make some very good points. 

There are several courses that I would have expected to make the list that either did not receive enough votes to be included (e.g. Coldstream), or were simply not favored (for whatever reason) by those that chose to contribute (e.g. Sand Ridge).

Ben Cowan (Michigan) really deserves the credit for this list, as he did most of the heavy lifting.  Perhaps next time around, we will receive enough submissions to add a little more statistical rigor to the ranking process. 

One last thought - like many of these lists (even those done with far larger sample size), there is a point in the ranking where courses get very tightly grouped together.  In this case, that started around course #20.  From 20-40 (and really to 50 or 60), the perceived quality of the courses gets extremely similar. 
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Michael H on December 08, 2017, 10:34:30 AM
Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other.  I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list.  Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.

Not to mention Miami Valley which snuck in at 40.  While hardly "great" I like the course quite a bit and the club's vibe, or lack thereof suited my sensibilities.  It brings to mind Holston Hills in the 1980's - a generally untouched Ross on the wrong side of town in need of a little tree removal here and there. 

Mike
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Nigel Islam on December 08, 2017, 10:35:51 AM
Interesting list. I have long felt that I need to make it to Cleveland. I really want to see Kirtland, but maybe I need to have Brookside, Canton higher on my list. I'm still disappointed I couldn't make it to the Mashie at Canterbury a few years back.  Ohio golf is terrific. You can't go wrong with any of the 9 I have had the great pleasure of playing. I personally might have Scioto a touch higher, but I tend to me more of Scioto apologist than most.


Thanks for doing this list guys!
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Josh Bills on December 08, 2017, 10:44:34 AM
With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?


While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.


Jerry,


In my ranking I had them equal.  Springfield to me was a more enjoyable round as the rough was not overly penal like at NCR S.  If you missed the fairway at NCR it was at least a one shot penalty, which frankly I don't enjoy.  However, the holes were all interesting and both are excellent courses.  As to Springfield, I love the elevation changes and greens and thought the layout was great.  While different in their asks, I felt they were equal in their presentation and both deserved the same grade on the Doak scale as worth seeing.  Mind you I am not a rater, so that is my subjective determination.  I was able to rank over 30+ courses and probably could have done a few more, but just haven't updated my numbers.   
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: JLahrman on December 08, 2017, 12:44:43 PM
Glenview would be a Cincinnati public that I think would be worthy of a spot on the list if more people saw it. They've held USGA qualifiers there for decades.
Are they still hosting qualifiers there? I know they used to have a Publinx qualifier there, and I believe the 1987 Publinx was played at Glenview. The last time I played it was probably 10 years ago and it had become seriously overgrown with trees. I liked playing Glenview, but to be honest I'm not sure it's any better than Sharon Woods, although Sharon Woods' greens are a weakness.

I know several good players who prefer Coldstream over Camargo as a better test of their games. That's not what your list is trying to rank, but I do think Coldstream belongs somewhere on the list.


I agree and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so (at least one other poster mentioned Coldstream as well). It's certainly not top 10 in the state but I would think it belongs in the top 40. And yes, it can be a real bear. You can definitely put up a higher score at Coldstream than Camargo, if that's what tickles your pickle.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Jeff Shelman on December 08, 2017, 03:34:09 PM
Agree that Coldstream should be somewhere on the list. It is certainly challenging, but it is also pretty good.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Tim Rooney on December 08, 2017, 03:43:29 PM
Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
[/size]Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
[/size]Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 08, 2017, 03:47:57 PM
Agree that Coldstream should be somewhere on the list. It is certainly challenging, but it is also pretty good.
Find us enough people that have played it and are willing to submit a rating, and it will be added.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: BHoover on December 08, 2017, 03:55:24 PM
Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.


Stunned? Really? Itís a list that averages the personal preferences of a group of posters. Itís meant to be a fun exercise, so please relax.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brad Tufts on December 08, 2017, 04:00:23 PM
How many ballots do you have so far?  Just curious how stat-significant the numbers are.

I've only played a few while passing through several times.

TCC (wow), Canterbury (wow again), Brookside (wow!), Inverness (the 2010 or so version, very good), Denison (hidden gemmy with a couple clunkers), Stonelick Hills (pretty good when I expected very little), Sleepy Hollow (scruffy but good bones).

Edit:  Not making fun with my stat question, just curious...this will be a useful list come next visit to OH!
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 08, 2017, 04:01:14 PM
Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
[/size]Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
[/size]Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.

Tim,

First, great job with the font sizes.  Really makes your points clear. 

Second, you clearly have different taste than the large group that contributed to this exercise.  That's great.  We'd welcome your list, if you'd care to submit one, rather than just calling it a shitty list.  Or just post your own list for comparison.

I love Muirfield Village.  It's either 1 or 2 (along with The Golf Club) among courses in Ohio that I have personally played.  However, I thought Moraine was a better golf course than Scioto, even before Moraine's most recent work was completed.  Scioto remains a great course, but it has suffered through several disjointed renovations over the last 40+ years.  It's an amazing club with tremendous history and a very good golf course, but this group of guys thinks it is a 7.2.  Oh, well.

Regarding Camargo, you are definitely in the minority.  While I haven't had the pleasure myself (closest I got was rained out while waiting in the pro shop), it not only ranks highly here, but also on all of the major magazine lists (31st Golf, 52nd Golf Digest, 19th classic Golfweek).
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 08, 2017, 04:38:06 PM
How many ballots do you have so far?  Just curious how stat-significant the numbers are.

I've only played a few while passing through several times.

TCC (wow), Canterbury (wow again), Brookside (wow!), Inverness (the 2010 or so version, very good), Denison (hidden gemmy with a couple clunkers), Stonelick Hills (pretty good when I expected very little), Sleepy Hollow (scruffy but good bones).

Edit:  Not making fun with my stat question, just curious...this will be a useful list come next visit to OH!


It is not statistically significant. At all. There were about 20 participants (more since the list was posted - will re-publish list eventually), and most courses got between 8 and 12 ratings.  We very purposely went with the simplest possible approach, with the only limitation being that 4+ votes were needed to be counted.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: ward peyronnin on December 08, 2017, 04:48:06 PM
I have not played many on that list but they are mostly quality: Camargo, Morraine, TGC. I am glad to see Hickory Hills at least made the list.

I enjoyed the lo impact no frills atmosphere of the place and thought Kidwell's design is very well done. I would like to hear any comments regarding why it might be underrated at a 5.5 or if that is all it merits.

There is little glam but trees are properly pruned cared for, bunkers play fairly, grass is neatly trimmed w/o collateral damage but maybe conditioning is a reason? Routing and hole variety are solid. Anyway you guys who posted know better than I.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Mark Saltzman on December 08, 2017, 04:48:43 PM
Brian, is this like the Michigan list in that the ballot is open to OH residents only? I've played about half of the courses listed and would be happy to submit next time if it's open to all.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Tim Rooney on December 08, 2017, 04:48:56 PM
Apologize for the 'font' exercise---Old Man(me).
Camargo had some interesting holes, but the course featured the largest greens I've ever played, rendering more a putting game.
Sand Ridge unrated below Denison is ridiculous.Denison now has the finest greens in fifty years, with a scheduled renovation within the next 3-5 years----course before Kidwell renovation was much better.
Did not use your "S....."word.Just an opinion.
Merry Christmas!!
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Jerry Kessler on December 08, 2017, 10:40:11 PM
With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?
While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.
Which holes at Springfield do you find uninspiring?  What about NCR do you feel makes it superior?

Personally, I have NCR ahead of Springfield, but not by much.  NCR had quite a wide distribution of ratings.  Seems to be a polarizing course.


It has been a few years since I played Springfield. Many of the par 4s down on the flatter part of the course were just uninspiring.


NCR just does not have any real weak holes with the exception of 5 and 14. 1, 3, 6, 9, 10, 12, 15, and 16 are all strong holes.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on December 09, 2017, 12:25:09 AM
I don't have a lot of experience with the OH courses.  I've played 6 of the courses on the list.  3 were courses I considered joining and ended up at 1 of them.  Obviously I think my home course is ranked too low.   ;D   On the other end of the spectrum I've played Firestone N. a few times and like it less each time I play, so don't really get how it is included on lists like this.  The first hole is my least favorite hole on the property.  I'd rather play the West course for sure.

The other thing I realize is people are clearly much better at networking than I am as it amazes me how many people come through and play courses I live right next to but haven't played.


NCR just does not have any real weak holes with the exception of 5 and 14. 1, 3, 6, 9, 10, 12, 15, and 16 are all strong holes.

Just like opinions on courses vary, opinions on holes vary.  14 is one of my favorite holes on the course.  It's a hole I stand on the tee and think it's a birdie hole but I usually walk away with bogey or worse.  Every shot brings a decision on what to do and I usually play the part of the sucker.

My least favorite hole is 1.

As Josh said NCR is a course that will dole out punishment for errant shots.  It was built in the penal school of design, if you hit an errant shot your score will reflect that.  That being said it's not a mindless course.  There are lots of places where you have options on the tee as well as into the greens.  The greens are no cake walk either and I've managed to three putt every hole out there.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Criss Titschinger on December 09, 2017, 06:43:57 AM
When I turned in my scores, I told Ben that Coldstream was going to be the most notable course NOT represented due to no one having played it. I suspect it would crack the top 40.

I had NCR South over Springfield, but only by a hair.

The private courses in Ohio are really that much better than the public courses. Fowlers Mill is the lone exception in my book. Sleepy Hollow could be really good with some touch-ups and cart path removal. I still need to see Manakiki. The Quarry has a view dull holes that keep it from being special, but itís solid regardless.

I think the majority of the participants were from Central and Northern Ohio, and the list may reflect that. However, I have no argument the best golf in the state is also up that way. I was glad to see Dayton represented well. Cincinnati was not well represented when I got the list. Carmago, Hyde Park, and Stonelick were accounted for, but I felt a couple with top 40 potential that Iíve played were missing: Clovernook and Maketewah. The former (Langford/Moreau) is the best course in the city Iíve played (have not played Camargo, Coldstream, Hyde Park, or TPC Riverís Bend). Clovernook could be even better if they more funds to spend. Mak is much improved after their bunker renovation.

As far as Miami View (not to be be confused with Miami Valley), Iím a member there and I didnít include it on the list. I love playing out of there. No first hole scares me anymore because of the 477 yard par 4 1st I play all the time. I tell guests be happy with a 10 after the first two holes, because there plenty of birdie holes after that. The course has great variety and land variation. Itís one of the rare golf-only clubs in Cincinnati. We spend the majority of our money on the golf course, and thatís the way I like it. I donít think itís not worth traveling for, but Iím happy to host if people want to check it out. We recently approved some minor renovations (Hurdzan Group) that will be taking place over the course of 2018. We also just hired a new superintendent who worked with at Scioto when Hurdzan was doing work out there. Iím excited to see what he can do with the View.

I havenít seen Glenview in over 10 years, but I canít see it breaking the top 40. I prefer Sharon Woods over Glenview, but letís be honest: Stonelick is the only public in SW Ohio worth even considering for top 40.

I havenít played in NE Ohio since 2015, and that needs to change next year. I must find a way to get, if nothing else, Brookside Canton in my 2018 rota.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Ari Techner on December 09, 2017, 11:47:45 AM
Good list guys thanks for taking the time to do that. 


I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9.  I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there.  Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors.  It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.


I really need to play Brookside. 


LOVE Moraine.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Ronald Montesano on December 09, 2017, 01:19:54 PM
I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9.  I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there.  Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors.  It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.


Ari,

I loved my time on the course, as I had the chance to photograph it for 2 consecutive days (did not play.) I wonder which holes you think are the weak ones, or is it a weakness that can not be ascribed to individual holes?
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Ari Techner on December 09, 2017, 01:49:40 PM
I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9.  I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there.  Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors.  It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.


Ari,

I loved my time on the course, as I had the chance to photograph it for 2 consecutive days (did not play.) I wonder which holes you think are the weak ones, or is it a weakness that can not be ascribed to individual holes?




I thought it had an amazing set of par 3s but the 5s are average and same with a few of the 4s.  Great routing, better than average piece of land.  Cool old school Raynor greens.  Weak is definitely not the right word but a 9 ranking is an extremely high standard.  I don't think the course is up to that high of a standard.  Its top 10 MacRaynor but not top 5 and I'd have it closer to a high 7 than a 9.  Which still makes it a fantastic place to spend a day playing golf.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: ward peyronnin on December 09, 2017, 08:52:50 PM
Ari I will agree with you. 1 and 18 are not inspiring holes with not much to make them memorable bookends; not bad but not nineworthy rating. Also the greens are impressive  like aircraft carriers are or they remind me of the PreColumbian Indian mounds we have in the Ohio Valley and internal movement is not in keeping with inspired MacRaynor execution. The threes are good but I have definitely seen better Redans and Shorts.

It is good but nowhere near a nine; Morraine tops it in my book.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Joe Bausch on December 10, 2017, 07:40:19 AM
Ohio golf is strong as this list confirms.

I've played 3 of the 40 and enjoyed each very much.  I think Maketewah may be a bit underrated.

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Maketewah/index.html

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Inverness/index.html

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Sylvania/index.html
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Tom_Doak on December 12, 2017, 06:52:49 AM
I'm quite fond of Camargo, but I'm surprised it is so far ahead of everything else in this poll.  Your voters don't seem to have followed tradition at other spots on the list.  I guess it's the only Raynor course in Ohio so that makes it more distinct.  It is a great piece of ground for golf.


I was also a bit surprised that the quality of the list falls off so hard after the top 15 or so.  Everyone always points out how many great courses Columbus has, I think Cleveland's courses are underrated, and there are other cities to chime in as well, yet when you put them all together I'm surprised it doesn't add up to more.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Phil McDade on December 12, 2017, 02:47:50 PM
Top 10 or so looks about right to me -- I might have the Canterbury over Muirfield, but that's my bias (old trumps new).


Mayfield is #25 -- a course that few ever discuss here on GCA, yet has all of the attributes that GCAers usually fall over themselves exulting: quirky design by relatively obscure architect, overshadowed by neighbors (Canterbury, TCC, Kirtland et al), once cited by Vardon (according to the late Tom MacWood) as his favorite course  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,149.msg1376091.html#msg1376091 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,149.msg1376091.html#msg1376091))


Has anyone played it or seen it?
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Brian Finn on December 12, 2017, 03:37:37 PM
Following the lead of the Michigan contingent, a group of Ohio-based contributors (past & present) submitted their ratings for the best courses in Ohio.  In this golf-rich state, perhaps best known for the "Big 4" of Columbus, the Northeast proves to have the deepest bench of courses that appeal to gca enthusiasts.  You have to go to the opposite end of the state to find top-rated Camargo, but the list shows that you need not go far from any point in Ohio to find an architectural gem. 

1.  Camargo 8.93
2.  Brookside (Canton) 8.13
3.  The Golf Club 8.11
4.  Moraine 8.01
5.  Kirtland 7.87
6.  The Country Club 7.60
7.  Muirfield Village 7.41
8.  Canterbury 7.28
9.  Inverness 7.21
10. Pepper Pike Club 7.18
11. Scioto 7.03
12. Springfield 6.82
13. Double Eagle 6.67
14. Fowlers Mill 6.59
15. Hyde Park 6.54
16. NCR S 6.53
17. Sleepy Hollow 6.50
18. Firestone S 6.49
19. Elyria 6.45
20. Sugarbush 6.27
21. OSU Scarlet 6.23
22. Westbrook 6.17
23. Urbana 6.13
24. Brookside (Columbus) 6.12
25. Mayfield CC 6.04
26. Maketewah 5.98
27. Shaker Heights 5.97
28. Sylvania CC 5.94
29. Denison (Granville) 5.91
30. Firestone N 5.83
31. Congress Lake 5.83
32. Pinnacle 5.82
33. Manakiki 5.80
34. Stonelick Hills 5.80
35. Columbus CC 5.78
36. Wedgewood 5.72
37. Hickory Hills 5.70
38. Clovernook 5.68
39. Lakewood 5.65
40. Miami Valley 5.60

Thank you to the many contributors who participated in building out this list. We'll soon be sharing write-ups of many of the courses on the list, drafted by those that know and love them best. 

I look forward to hearing from the broader group concerning the (de)merits of the list.  Any courses you expected to see that aren't represented?  Any rankings unusually high or low, in your view?  Hopefully this list spurs some discussion, especially about courses that don't necessarily come up often on the site.
Saving original post #1 & revising list in opening post to reflect several more ballots.
Title: Re: Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)
Post by: Joe Zucker on December 12, 2017, 03:46:12 PM
Iíve played about half the courses on the list (5 of the top 10) and contributed my rankings.  For the most part, I agree with the group based on the courses I have played.  I also strongly agree with the sentiment that after the top 12, weíre really splitting hairs. 

There are only three quality publics in Cleveland worth playing: Fowlers, Sleepy Hollow, and Manikiki.  All three could have their own thread on merits and deficiencies.   Unfortunately, Fowlers is the only one in great shape, with the park district owning the other two. I think it is well noted that Sleepy and Manakiki have the bones to be great courses, but itís unlikely to ever happen.  There is no shortage of good golf in Ohio, but most of it is private like everywhere else.
 
Phil, Iíve played Mayfield a few times and agree that is a fun course. I think it falls into a group with Shaker just below the premier east side clubs.  There are several really good and interesting holes on both courses, but also several mundane and boring ones.  Accacia and Oakwood could be in that group too, before they became shopping malls a few years back.