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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: James Brown on November 21, 2017, 08:48:17 PM

Title: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: James Brown on November 21, 2017, 08:48:17 PM
Anyone got an update on the progress?  Have they started?
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Ted Sirbaugh on November 21, 2017, 09:56:06 PM
James,

Here is the most recent update I've seen:

https://twitter.com/golfarchitects/status/931232099360825344 (https://twitter.com/golfarchitects/status/931232099360825344)


I'm not sure what else has gone on with it besides them clearing out some of the gorse and marking the green location.

Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: David_Tepper on November 21, 2017, 10:13:38 PM
There was a thread on this with pics a couple of months ago.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65027.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65027.0.html)

Almost all of the new 7th hole has been cleared of gorse & underbrush. My understanding is it will take several years before the new 7th hole is ready to be put into play.
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 22, 2017, 04:07:08 AM

Interesting how the land uncovered by gorse removal which is of a very similar appearance as the land the present hole is on is described as 'amazing' where as the present hole is apparently so dull and boring. Yes, it will make a more spectacular setting but I doubt the quality of the hole or course will be improved. Indeed, this could open up a whole new can of worms with players taking an age to finish the hole.


Is the 5 hour round in Dornoch officially on notice I wonder!!!
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 22, 2017, 04:30:06 AM

Interesting how the land uncovered by gorse removal which is of a very similar appearance as the land the present hole is on is described as 'amazing' where as the present hole is apparently so dull and boring. Yes, it will make a more spectacular setting but I doubt the quality of the hole or course will be improved. Indeed, this could open up a whole new can of worms with players taking an age to finish the hole.


Is the 5 hour round in Dornoch officially on notice I wonder!!!

Except...a view will be on offer....no small matter imo.  I don't have an issue with alteration, but then I trust the archie can design a good green or even damn near replicate the old green.  From a different perspective, I think a legger right will actually offer more variation for the course as there are ton of leggers left.  My real worry is the 8th.  While I didn't care for the tee shot, I did find it awkward and therefore interesting.  Mind you, perhaps losing an awkward tee shot at Dornoch is okay because there a few others.

The 5 hour round is already upon at Dornoch.  Most places where tour buses roll in is a place with 5 hour rounds.

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 22, 2017, 10:55:38 AM

Sean,


I have no doubt in the ability of the architects to produce a good hole, at least their track record would suggest it. I do however doubt the course will be improved by it as a whole. If it is the views that they wanted then simply cutting the gorse down and keeping on top of it would have done that. Cheaper, quicker and much less disruptive.


The only real difference is that the hole will be played closer to the edge of the drop which might be more spectacular but I will guarantee you that the greenkeepers will not keep on to of the gorse on that slope leading to many lost balls. With the general wind direction and the prevalence of the slice amongst players the average visiting fourball will be looking for at least two lost balls during the play of the hole and of course the photo call on the tee or green or both will compound this.


I actually think that the changes to 8 will be the only real win in this scheme. My comment about the 5 hour round being put on notice was more about its demise as the new improved 6 hour + round moves into residence in Dornoch and all for a bit of 'golf porn' :-[


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 22, 2017, 01:41:30 PM
Jon

Half of Dornoch's appeal is golf porn.  The club is only taking advantage of what they have.  Its not as if money is an issue.

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 22, 2017, 03:26:52 PM

Sean,


I understand that and I am sure most will not be able to see past the bling. I wonder what the cost will be however.


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 22, 2017, 07:48:01 PM

Sean,


I understand that and I am sure most will not be able to see past the bling. I wonder what the cost will be however.


Jon


The cost doesn't matter...the club is flush.  They could alter several holes and not dent the bank account. Now if they could spend some cash on clearing gorse...


Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 23, 2017, 01:50:45 AM

Sean,


I was not referring to a financial cost. Saddening how price tag and bling effect seem to be all that is considered but I would suggest that there is something more important that might be at risk.


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 23, 2017, 04:53:44 AM

Sean,


I was not referring to a financial cost. Saddening how price tag and bling effect seem to be all that is considered but I would suggest that there is something more important that might be at risk.


Jon


Oh, well I am not convinced by your argument that the 7th is a critical aspect of the course balance/rhythm/flow.  The new hole is over the same type of land, so flat. A legger right gets in the act which if anything helps variety.  I am far more concerned about the knock on effect for 8. It still isn't clear to me how that drive will look.


Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 23, 2017, 11:34:56 AM

Sean,


it will dogleg to the left like majority on the course. Have you actually looked at the land? What 7 does to add to the variety of the course is one of the few straight away holes. One of the few holes that has subtle contours. One of the few holes that play level along the length. One of the few greens that are lie of the land not perched. One of the few two shotters that require two big shots. One of the few holes that does not rely heavily on bling to impress. Removing it will certainly mean losing some of these characteristics though not all but will replace them with things Dornoch already possesses in abundance. Being asked a good question is interesting and fun. Being asked the same good question over and over again can become tedious.


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 23, 2017, 06:18:20 PM

Sean,


it will dogleg to the left like majority on the course. Have you actually looked at the land? What 7 does to add to the variety of the course is one of the few straight away holes. One of the few holes that has subtle contours. One of the few holes that play level along the length. One of the few greens that are lie of the land not perched. One of the few two shotters that require two big shots. One of the few holes that does not rely heavily on bling to impress. Removing it will certainly mean losing some of these characteristics though not all but will replace them with things Dornoch already possesses in abundance. Being asked a good question is interesting and fun. Being asked the same good question over and over again can become tedious.


Jon


Jon

The land is the same, fairly flat...so no difference there.  There are plenty of straightish holes....1, 9, 10 & 15...no great loss there. The green can be replicated or made better and kept lie of the land.  The length/difficulty can be retained.  I was under the impression the hole was legging right...toward the water.  It seems like you are arguing just to argue  8)  Its not as if the 7th is precious in any way.

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on November 23, 2017, 08:22:16 PM
The 7th at Dornoch is in fact very precious to many active players and observers-even a few precious critics-for many reasons, all of which have been articulated on this and other previous similar threads.
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: James Brown on November 23, 2017, 08:35:14 PM
The 7th at Dornoch is in fact very precious to many active players and observers-even a few precious critics-for many reasons, all of which have been articulated on this and other previous similar threads.


Certainly is to me.  Played Dornoch 10 Times and hit about 7 different clubs into #7.  And the green!
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 24, 2017, 03:59:29 AM


Sean,


it will dogleg to the left like majority on the course. Have you actually looked at the land? What 7 does to add to the variety of the course is one of the few straight away holes. One of the few holes that has subtle contours. One of the few holes that play level along the length. One of the few greens that are lie of the land not perched. One of the few two shotters that require two big shots. One of the few holes that does not rely heavily on bling to impress. Removing it will certainly mean losing some of these characteristics though not all but will replace them with things Dornoch already possesses in abundance. Being asked a good question is interesting and fun. Being asked the same good question over and over again can become tedious.


Jon


Jon

The land is the same, fairly flat...so no difference there.  There are plenty of straightish holes....1, 9, 10 & 15...no great loss there. The green can be replicated or made better and kept lie of the land.  The length/difficulty can be retained.  I was under the impression the hole was legging right...toward the water.  It seems like you are arguing just to argue  8)  Its not as if the 7th is precious in any way.

Ciao


Sean,


No, I am not arguing for the sake of it but when something is written that is wrong then I see nothing wrong in pointing that out. Just by repeating misinformation does not make it true even though certain US citizens and self proclaimed golfing experts believe it does ;)   


So you do not know the land then so why not just say so? The general form of the bluff there is a long arc going left and having looked at the area cleared of gorse it is certainly doglegging to the left.


As to Dornoch having plenty of straight holes yes 1 & 9 are straight but 15 is only playable in a straight line if you can clear the mound otherwise it plays as a dogleg which is the case for the vast majority of players and 10 is a par 3 so I am surprised you did not add in 2, 6 and 13 to the list. Are you sure you know the course? ;D


Jon


Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 24, 2017, 04:28:04 AM
The green will be on the far right looking down to the 9th green 10th tees, so it will be a slight dogleg to the right, at the moment not all bushes have been cut down, the reason for this is we will be playing the original hole for the next few years so do not want to break through until we have to, it is difficult to see the exact route at the moment until this happens, we will be concentrating on the green site and green surround first.

According to the post above the hole is meant to turn right, toward the water...which I imagine is how the views are on display.  If the hole does turn left I am not sure that is a great thing.  But also if the hole does turn left I am not sure why Ricardo would say the 9th would be a big legger right....a tee near the current area would be very easy to keep in play.

Made a mistake about 10...meant to say 11. 

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Marty Bonnar on November 26, 2017, 09:28:40 AM
Iím confused.
Shirley (donít call me Shirley!) the new green will be to the right of the current one, making the hole a dogleg right?
Clarification much appreciated!
Cheers,
M.


Cancel that! Forgot about the other thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65027.msg1550100.html#msg1550100 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65027.msg1550100.html#msg1550100)
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 27, 2017, 04:16:26 AM

Marty,


yes, it seems it will be doglegging to the right so my mistake. Having seen the cleared area of gorse and a sketch of the proposed hole which both appeared to suggest it going the other way. They must be using quite a bit of the existing holes fairway. Having said that, it still does not change the basic questions behind how sensible this plan is.


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 27, 2017, 04:38:16 AM

Marty,


yes, it seems it will be doglegging to the right so my mistake. Having seen the cleared area of gorse and a sketch of the proposed hole which both appeared to suggest it going the other way. They must be using quite a bit of the existing holes fairway. Having said that, it still does not change the basic questions behind how sensible this plan is.


Jon

Jon

I think the plan is sensible...a similar hole creating more variation and more views...what isn't sensible about this if finance isn't an issue?  I can understand not liking the idea, but not sensible? 

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Mark Chaplin on November 27, 2017, 05:53:27 AM
Sean didnít Tralee manage to spend Ä1m on the 9th? Deep pockets can become shallow very quickly. 
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 27, 2017, 08:08:15 AM
Chappers

Tralee ain't Dornoch.  That said, I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of #7 changes if I were a member of Dornoch, but I do think the concept has merit.  I would rather see the gorse cleared and the clubhouse upgraded.  As a visitor...for sure...the changes are positive. 

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 27, 2017, 12:33:02 PM

I guess we will have to agree to disagree Sean.


I can't see where the extra variation is if the hole is similar nor why it is sensible to spend money just because 'you can afford it'. Funny how if you were a member you would like it less yet as a visitor your in favour. I guess it is a question of bling over substance. I wonder if this is the same reason for your doubts about the changes to 8 designed to make taking on the bluff more challenging. 11th a straight hole?


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 27, 2017, 12:53:44 PM

I guess we will have to agree to disagree Sean.


I can't see where the extra variation is if the hole is similar nor why it is sensible to spend money just because 'you can afford it'. Funny how if you were a member you would like it less yet as a visitor your in favour. I guess it is a question of bling over substance. I wonder if this is the same reason for your doubts about the changes to 8 designed to make taking on the bluff more challenging. 11th a straight hole?


Jon

Well, I spose if the club were to offer a year or two with no dues some money in the bank could be spent.  Otherwise....the club is collecting money...the question must be asked to what purpose if dividends aren't paid?  Having money can be a dangerous thing, but there is need to be precious over the 7th...at the same time I wouldn't say altering the 7th is a priority for Dornoch...it isn't the worst hole on the course.  Lets put it this way...altering the 7th is small beer when money is floating about. I am far from precious about the 7th...it ain't a special hole...or if it is, Dornoch must have 17 of the damn things.

Yep, 11 plays pretty straight...I certainly wouldn't call it a dogleg or curving hole.  You can hit a drive down the middle and it will likely drift back to the left. 

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 28, 2017, 03:38:47 AM

Sean,


you have to ask two basic questions.


1. what is RDGC?
2. Why/ for who are they changing the hole?


A straight hole to me is when you can stand on the tee, look down the fairway and see the green all in a straight line. If I stand on the tee at 11, aim a the green and hit it straight the ball comes down in the left hand rough. Not a big dogleg but one none the less.
Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 28, 2017, 05:41:29 AM
It is an interesting question as to why change the hole so dramatically.  I can only surmise it is for the views.  That said, there are plenty of views to be had at Dornoch so if I were a member this wouldn't wash well with me.  That said, I would be concerned about the stockpiling of cash and wondering what other ideas are floating around to drain the bank account....scarey...and in this context the 7th is a fairly benign plan.  I gotta say the concept for a new clubhouse looked a huge waste of money to me.  Sure, I would want want better facilities, but unless the house was going to be moved and a radical rethink of the 18th was in the cards (which is what I would personally rather see explored...maybe it has been) I would look to improve on the existing building. 

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Niall C on November 28, 2017, 07:00:21 AM
Sean
 
Iím with you. To me there are perhaps other design issues that Iíd address before the 7th and I think the 18th is one of them. That said, I think the 7th and possibly the change to the 8th will be an easy win in the sense that I think it will go down well with visitors and a lot of members alike.
 
With that win tucked under their belt it might be easier for them to get approval for other changes.
 
Niall   
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: BCrosby on November 28, 2017, 02:21:16 PM
Sean/Niall -


What are the issues with the 18th?


Bob
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on November 28, 2017, 03:06:03 PM
Sorry to interrupt, Bob, but as a long term observer, the answer is nada!
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 28, 2017, 03:53:40 PM

Sean,


I am with you on your last post. If they were to build a new clubhouse then it should be close to the 18th green. If I were a member there I would want them to address the lack of diversity in the par 3s especially the dire 10th as well as keep on top of the gorse better. As to what to spend the money on? Well, maybe getting in one of the big guns such a Coore or Doak to finally upgrade the Struie to a respectable standard. I should add a disclaimer in that I have not played it for over 25 years but should be in the next two weeks so might alter this point of view.


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on November 28, 2017, 09:07:58 PM
Jon


I've been arguing with the powers that be for years for a better and expanded Struie (27 holes), but we don't need Doak or Coorshaw, as Robin Hiseman's work several years ago (9 to 14) is superb and he knows the place.


As for the 10th, I think it is one of the top ten "Short" holes in the world of golf.  Please look at it carefully and lovingly and report back.


Slainte


Rich
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 28, 2017, 09:25:12 PM
Sean/Niall -


What are the issues with the 18th?


Bob


Bob


The golfer is stranded in no man's land after 18 and its not as if the hole current hole is memorable.  If I were a member I would like to see the idea of playing to the practice green explored. 


Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on November 28, 2017, 10:00:34 PM
Dornoch's 18th reminds me of Merion's 18th, but it is significantly better than the latter due to the green complex.  Merion 18 has a green simplex IMO, and it is probably the worst hole on the track.


Sean, you should be happy to know that the 18th at Dornoch was a 215 yard uphill shot from deep into the trees to the right of what is now the 18th green for the Struie (The Witch) up to the current putting green--pre-WWII.  In the 70's and 80's it was the 9th of the Struie and was a great finish.


Sic transit gloria struie.
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Ted Sirbaugh on November 28, 2017, 10:52:24 PM



The golfer is stranded in no man's land after 18 and its not as if the hole current hole is memorable.  If I were a member I would like to see the idea of playing to the practice green explored. 


Aren't we talking about only a ~150 yard walk back to the 1st tee/clubhouse? I certainly wouldn't say that's in no man's land. I also agree with Rich that it is a great green complex, and I don't think the hole needs to be changed at all, especially if it's only to bring the golfer closer to the clubhouse
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: David_Tepper on November 28, 2017, 11:21:00 PM
Ted S. -


I doubt it is even 100 yards from the 18th green to the front door of the clubhouse.


DT
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 29, 2017, 04:08:48 AM

Jon


I've been arguing with the powers that be for years for a better and expanded Struie (27 holes), but we don't need Doak or Coorshaw, as Robin Hiseman's work several years ago (9 to 14) is superb and he knows the place.


As for the 10th, I think it is one of the top ten "Short" holes in the world of golf.  Please look at it carefully and lovingly and report back.


Slainte


Rich


Rich,


I haven't seen the work Robin did but am excited to be able to in the coming days. I would be happy if anybody did work to bring Struie up to a level just behind the main course and am sure Robin could be that person.


As for the 10th or the par 3s in general this is something discussed else where. Individually 2,6 &13 are all excellent holes but the all set the same challenge and lack even variety in club selection. 2 & 6 play the same club as do 10 & 13. You are asked to hit the green or miss short. The punishment for not hitting the target is the same steep uphill shot. I would prefer to see atleast one of the left hand traps filled in on 6 and the front two lefthand traps on 13.


As to the 10th. It is a horrible hole devoid of charm or strategy. In a two club downwind it is all but impossible to keep the ball on the putting surface. By removing the front bunker it would be much enhanced.


However, you love for this hole is one of the great things about such discussions in that two people can look at the same thing and reach polar opposite conclusions and both be right.


Jon
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on November 29, 2017, 04:46:28 AM



The golfer is stranded in no man's land after 18 and its not as if the hole current hole is memorable.  If I were a member I would like to see the idea of playing to the practice green explored. 


Aren't we talking about only a ~150 yard walk back to the 1st tee/clubhouse? I certainly wouldn't say that's in no man's land. I also agree with Rich that it is a great green complex, and I don't think the hole needs to be changed at all, especially if it's only to bring the golfer closer to the clubhouse

Ted

Yes, I am an outlier in that I highly value a house which is incorporated into the 18 holes.  IMO a hole just as good or better than 18 could be built using the site (or very nearby) of the practice green thereby using the house more efficiently and promoting club social life (who doesn't enjoy the 1st tee and 18th green by the house?). 

Rich...thanks, yes, I knew the practice green used to be part of the course.

BTW...I agree with Rich, Merion's 18th is not the awesome folks make it out to be. 

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Niall C on November 29, 2017, 02:01:07 PM
Sean/Niall -


What are the issues with the 18th?


Bob


Bob


I like to say that you judge the great courses and just enjoy the lesser ones. In that vein RDGC deserves to be judged although in truth I don't think it nearly as good as a lot of others do. There are a couple of issues for me.


Firstly, there are too many plateau greens at Dornoch for my liking. The 18th green kind of comes into that category in so much as I remember it the green more or less is at grade but it has a bit of a dry moat to the front of the green that effectively strongly favours a pitching shot.


That brings me to the second issue. The back nine tends to be a slog. To reference David Teppers quote about the Olympic Course and needing to get his fairway woods re-gripped after every time he plays it, well that's what I feel like with the back nine at RD. There is too much emphasis on length. If getting up isn't really on then there is little interest left in some of the holes IMO. So it is with the 18th to an extent although I accept the pitch with the 3rd shot, assuming you can't reach in 2, has some interest/degree of difficulty in terms of dealing with the moat as I referred to earlier.


That's my issues but I suspect others might have an issue with the green relative to the clubhouse etc which to be honest doesn't bother me too much.


Niall
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: BCrosby on November 30, 2017, 11:03:28 AM
Niall -


Thanks for getting back. For different reasons, I share your reservations about Dornoch. I have played it and Muirfield twice and both, while very good courses, felt more like very good American courses than other Scottish courses I played. Which is why neither is high on my list for return play.


Both should be played, however. And both offer a memorable day of golf, on and off the course.


Bob


P.S. As you know, our man John Low was an early Dornoch enthusiast. He traveled to play the course for a number of years before the First World War. I don't have a good picture of the design of the course he would have played. 


 
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: David_Tepper on November 30, 2017, 12:26:59 PM
"The back nine tends to be a slog."

Niall -

Really? The back nine has a shortish par-5 (#12), two mid/short-iron par-3's (#10 & #13) and a drive & pitch/chip par-4. #17 is a 3-wood & mid-iron par-4 (even for a short hitter like me).

Granted, the other par-4's can play very long if there is a strong wind out of the west. But if they are downwind, they are reachable (even for a short hitter like me).

DT   
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on November 30, 2017, 03:00:43 PM
Niall -


Thanks for getting back. For different reasons, I share your reservations about Dornoch. I have played it and Muirfield twice and both, while very good courses, felt more like very good American courses than other Scottish courses I played. Which is why neither is high on my list for return play.


Both should be played, however. And both offer a memorable day of golf, on and off the course.


Bob


P.S. As you know, our man John Low was an early Dornoch enthusiast. He traveled to play the course for a number of years before the First World War. I don't have a good picture of the design of the course he would have played. 




Bob


There is a good map of the 1906 course in the clubhouse and copied by Dr. John McLeod, who wrote a book on the history of the course.  You can probably get John's book online from the pro shop.


I wrote an IMO essay on the architectural history of Dornoch, 15 years ago, and it is still embedded on the tool bar on this site.  It's mostly reliable, and let me know if you have any questions.


All the  best


Rich
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: BCrosby on November 30, 2017, 03:27:05 PM
Thanks Rich. Will check out those sources. I had forgotten you had done a piece on Dornoch history.


Shame on me.


Bob
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: David_Tepper on November 30, 2017, 03:57:28 PM
"There is a good map of the 1906 course in the clubhouse and copied by Dr. John McLeod, who wrote a book on the history of the course.  You can probably get John's book online from the pro shop."

BCrosby -

The Golf Links to the Past shop in the little shopping arcade across from the Lodge at Pebble Beach has copies of Dr. MacLeod's book on the history of Dornoch in stock.

https://www.golfspast.com/ (https://www.golfspast.com/)

I was in there a couple of weeks ago. The proprietor claimed he had bought the remaining new copies of the book from MacLeod's daughter.

https://www.amazon.com/History-Royal-Dornoch-Golf-1877-1999/dp/1870151100/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512075156&sr=1-1&keywords=royal+Dornoch (https://www.amazon.com/History-Royal-Dornoch-Golf-1877-1999/dp/1870151100/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512075156&sr=1-1&keywords=royal+Dornoch)

DT
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on November 30, 2017, 06:59:44 PM
Thanks for the info, David.  I think I will give them a call to see if they might want to sell some of my books.  Interesting about Dr. John's daughter.  I knew her, briefly, and think she was married to an erstwhile poster on this forum who was edgy but very interesting and informative.  'Tis a small world out there.


Rich
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on November 30, 2017, 07:41:04 PM
Thanks Rich. Will check out those sources. I had forgotten you had done a piece on Dornoch history.


Shame on me.


Bob


No shame at all.


As a history buff, you might be interested in a book recently published called "Golf Causerie" which reproduces the weekly columns re: golf for the London Daily News and written by John Sutherland.  It also has several forwards from Sutherland groupies, including Todd Warnock, the force behind the project of the book as well as the creation of Coull Linkks.  It is well presented, and the forwards are passionate.


Your icon, Mr. Lowe, is referenced often in the archives, and he did have a passion for the Dornoch Links, even though he was beaten in the Dornoch Invasion of Muirfield by a commoner, a Mr. Alec Morrison.


There is also a good reproduction of the 1892 Dornoch map, which varies much from the 1906 one.  I don't think that Low made it up there until the 20th century.


Slainte


Rich


PS--the number for the book is ISBN 978-90-821625-2-3


j-p p





Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Niall C on December 01, 2017, 05:29:15 AM
Excellent stuff. The 1892 map was reproduced in the Golf Annual some time in the 1890's from memory.


Niall
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: BCrosby on December 01, 2017, 08:51:51 AM
Rich -


I saw a couple of reviews of Golf Causerie when it first appeared. It didn't seem to touch on areas I am rooting around in. But sounds like I should check it out.


Bob
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on December 01, 2017, 02:53:15 PM
Bob


90% of the 500+ pages tome are replications of John Sutherland's 1906-1912 brief essays for a London raggie, but as he was very well kent by the golfing powers that be in those days, it is very informative.  During that period he visited NGLA, Myopia, Garden City and Merion, amongst others and also took a trip Japan, all of which he discussed in depth.  He also reported on Opens, Amateurs and other high level tournaments, many of which he participated in.  The first 50+ pages are devoted to the editors and funders and interesting if not particularly informative.  It's worth the 25 quid it sells for, but shipment to the US would possibly double the cost due to its weight.


Slainte


Rich
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: James Brown on December 01, 2017, 09:52:14 PM
151 yards from the edge of the 18th green to the door of the clubhouse. 
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: David_Tepper on December 01, 2017, 10:48:10 PM
James B. -

I stand corrected. But even at 151 yards to the clubhouse, I have never felt "stranded" walking off the 18th green. I have had other feelings however. ;)

DT

Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on December 02, 2017, 04:32:19 AM
James B. -

I stand corrected. But even at 151 yards to the clubhouse, I have never felt "stranded" walking off the 18th green. I have had other feelings however. ;)

DT

By stranded I mean the golfer (and folks in the house) is some distance from the house and a hole over.  I am not sure how folks could argue this is ideal or even close to ideal.  It is more like "I'll put up with it, it isn't so bad".  It sort of piles on to the indifferent finish of the course and leaves me feeling let down.  That said, many courses are like this or worse.  That makes the courses which do have an incorporated house into the design that much more noticeable. 

Ciao 
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 02, 2017, 08:24:45 AM
Sean, whilst you are no doubt correct that an 18th hole finishing right by the house is the best solution, I have a perverse affinity to closing holes with greens that finish stranded in a field... Not sure why... I think it sometimes comes with old style traditional courses that are some of my favourites... So that's probably the only reason.
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: BCrosby on December 02, 2017, 08:29:17 AM

90% of the 500+ pages tome are replications of John Sutherland's 1906-1912 brief essays for a London raggie, but as he was very well kent by the golfing powers that be in those days, it is very informative.  During that period he visited NGLA, Myopia, Garden City and Merion, amongst others and also took a trip Japan, all of which he discussed in depth.  He also reported on Opens, Amateurs and other high level tournaments, many of which he participated in.  The first 50+ pages are devoted to the editors and funders and interesting if not particularly informative.  It's worth the 25 quid it sells for, but shipment to the US would possibly double the cost due to its weight.


Thanks Rich. I was intrigued by the book when it appeared. So much of the history of the game is still buried in weekly/monthly golf periodicals from that era. Which is why Causerie looked interesting. It extracts and organizes some of that.

Bob
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: David_Tepper on December 02, 2017, 01:19:53 PM
"It sort of piles on to the indifferent finish of the course"

Sean -

"Indifferent finish," seriously? The last 5 holes of the course are about as different and distinct from one another as imaginable.

I will grant you they are all par-4's, which does introduce a certain level of sameness. But aside from that, I don't see how they constitute an indifferent finish.

DT 
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Rich Goodale on December 03, 2017, 04:40:58 PM
Agreed, David


Sean must have OD'ed on malt whisky if and when he visited Dornoch.  It happens.........


rfg
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Norbert P on December 03, 2017, 07:32:42 PM
RG . . . 
[/size]             "Sean must have OD'ed on malt whisky if and when he visited Dornoch.  It happens........."[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]    'Tis where I learned The Macallan Song . . .  quickly forgotten.        [/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]    Best hangover I ever had.   [/color]
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on December 03, 2017, 08:38:10 PM
"It sort of piles on to the indifferent finish of the course"

Sean -

"Indifferent finish," seriously? The last 5 holes of the course are about as different and distinct from one another as imaginable.

I will grant you they are all par-4's, which does introduce a certain level of sameness. But aside from that, I don't see how they constitute an indifferent finish.

DT

David

After Foxy, Dornoch fizzles, with the exception of 17 and technology has mucked that hole up.  The other three holes...nothing special.  The 15th green spoils the party being so huge. 16 is a crap driving hole and often a slog.  18 isn't bad, but certainly not a memorable hole.  Like some others have said, to me Dornoch is not as heavenly as many make it out to be.  It is simply one among many excellent courses in GB&I.

Ciao
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: David_Tepper on December 03, 2017, 09:27:02 PM
"The 15th green spoils the party being so huge."

SERIOUSLY??? The large, well contoured 15th green is what makes it such a good (and challenging) short par-4.

#15, combined with #5, gives Dornoch two very good and very different short par-4's.
 
But, as the saying goes, there is no accounting for taste. ;)

DT

Please note I make no claim regarding Dornoch's stature among the better & best courses in either GB&I or the world. Having played the course 400+ times by now, I clearly am a little biased in that regard.
Title: Re: Dornoch #7 Update
Post by: Sean_A on December 04, 2017, 04:48:13 AM
"The 15th green spoils the party being so huge."

SERIOUSLY??? The large, well contoured 15th green is what makes it such a good (and challenging) short par-4.

#15, combined with #5, gives Dornoch two very good and very different short par-4's.
 
But, as the saying goes, there is no accounting for taste. ;)

DT

Please note I make no claim regarding Dornoch's stature among the better & best courses in either GB&I or the world. Having played the course 400+ times by now, I clearly am a little biased in that regard.

Meh, it is far from an exceptional hole...not bad though.  I watch guys blast around either side of the mound and have a target as large as the moon to hit.  Me thinks this is another hole spoiled by technology.  A similar hole (with a large mound in the middle of the fairway and raised green) is Cruden Bay's 17th, but it is a far better hole...perhaps because it is longer and getting around the mound off the tee is much harder.  The strength of Dornoch is resoundingly the front side and that is with one of the best holes in GG&I on the back 9....#s11 and 12 are damn good too. Only a Dornochian could think the finish is anything special  8)

Ciao