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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Mayhugh on October 13, 2017, 12:37:51 PM

Title: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: John Mayhugh on October 13, 2017, 12:37:51 PM
Earlier this week I saw a tweet discussing David Kidd's redesign of Rolling Hills CC in Palos Verdes.  I didn't remember seeing any previous mention of this, and in searching only found a couple on GCA. 

This is an article link that Scott Weersing posted in March.
https://www.easyreadernews.com/david-kidd-golf-course-palos-verdes-rolling-hills-country-club/

Kidd's website.
http://dmkgolfdesign.com/coming-soon/rolling-hills/

Some photos on Twitter.  A few of these are really intriguing.
https://twitter.com/rollinghillsgcm/media

Seems like there will be an article coming in GCA magazine.  Maybe Adam can provide a preview, or at least a hint on when it opens?  I'm really intrigued to think of an essentially new course in that location - especially built in sand.  Current Google Maps satellite view shows one big sandbox.

Maybe a good spot for one of our drone pilots to fly over.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Stephen Davis on October 13, 2017, 12:42:13 PM
Being from the area originally, I am really excited about this project. The original course was bland and uninteresting. The use of the nearby quarry will immediately bring more interest to this course. I am going to make a special trip back home to see this, granted I can get an invite.


PS. I don't know how much of the course you will be able to do a drone fly over on. The course is very near the Torrance Airport and I am sure the airspace is restricted for safety reasons.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Alex Miller on October 13, 2017, 12:55:03 PM
Being from the area originally, I am really excited about this project. The original course was bland and uninteresting. The use of the nearby quarry will immediately bring more interest to this course. I am going to make a special trip back home to see this, granted I can get an invite.


PS. I don't know how much of the course you will be able to do a drone fly over on. The course is very near the Torrance Airport and I am sure the airspace is restricted for safety reasons.


+1. I've played Rolling Hills a couple hundred times and if not for this project I'm not sure there would still be a golf course there. The previous version was potentially a Doak 0. Looking forward to playing it as well.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jim Nugent on October 13, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
Alex, I have to ask, if the old course was a zero, why did you play it a couple hundred times?  0 x 200 = 0. 
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Alex Miller on October 13, 2017, 03:16:55 PM
Alex, I have to ask, if the old course was a zero, why did you play it a couple hundred times?  0 x 200 = 0.


Home course for my high school team... still a very gracious club and wonderful staff.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Adam Lawrence on October 13, 2017, 03:42:38 PM
Golf course opens to the members in mid November. The membership is sold out -- they lost a number of members who were opposed to the rebuilding scheme but they have been full for a year, and the joining fee has gone up from $40k to $175k. Enormous new clubhouse is supposed to open 1 December but I will be very surprised if it does, there is a LOT still to do.


Essentially the club had lost its lease and was going out of business. Someone came up with the idea of incorporating the old sand quarry into the course and using some of the land freed up to build houses. There are 110 lots and the houses are selling at between $4-$5 million. Nice work if you can get it.


Problem was that the sand quarry was 240 feet deep. The project has been an enormous earthmove -- around 6.5 million cu m -- and, as much of Palos Verdes drains across the course, a fantastically complex engineering exercise too. Course is NOT pure sand, but it has all been sandcapped to a greater than usual depth.


I have to save the beef for GCA, but I thought the course itself was excellent, with the run of holes from 10-14, which occupy the top of the site, particularly good. Huge props to David's associate Nick Schaan who has been living onsite for more thann two years, and who is responsible for most of the complex engineering.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: John Mayhugh on October 13, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
Thanks for the additional info, Adam.  I'll await the GCA article.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: rjsimper on October 18, 2017, 09:43:59 PM
I worked in the shop at Rolling Hills in 2000, and like Alex I have played the old course hundreds of times as well as it was my high school home course for two years. I'm very excited to see what they've come up with. The holes being replaced by homes are fine with me to lose, and given that the real estate there is some of the most expensive in the country, I'm glad they were able to come up with a solution to make a project of this scale viable.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Peter Kelly on October 20, 2017, 02:54:36 PM
At the Twitter link posted earlier, there are also some drone videos that show the progress at various stages. The latest one is dated September 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjTabcijlz4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjTabcijlz4)  Looks like they built a very cool short game area.


Adam, do you know how many equity members comprise a sell out? Impressive to do that at $175k which is the same as Bel Air. Riv gets $250,000+, but that's non-equity. I think Hillcrest is a little more than $175,000, but the L.A. area clubs are less than that, including LACC.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Mark Kiely on December 07, 2017, 12:20:53 AM
Apparently this has re-opened. Anybody had a chance to check it out yet?
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Brad Tufts on December 07, 2017, 12:31:47 PM
I drove by it last week and people were out playing, although some of the bunkers looked unfinished.

The holes surrounding Palos Verdes Dr. looked intriguing, but I didn't go into the club past the guard gate so couldn't see much else.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jeremy Blumberg on January 10, 2018, 09:54:34 AM
Hello all,


New member here at GCA and a member at Rolling Hills. I am going to do my best over the next months to provide an in-depth look at the new course. We have been playing since November, and I have about 10 rounds under my belt. I will say this--the course is completely unlike any other course in Southern California, and to me that this a good thing (not to say we don't have some incredible courses here). Headed out to play this morning--we've had 2 days of rain so I suppose I'll see what our drainage looks like.

Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Brad Tufts on January 10, 2018, 02:51:01 PM
Please do!  I love photos!  ;D
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Laz Versalles on January 11, 2018, 02:03:14 PM

Welcome Jeremy,
I was just getting coffee in El Segundo and heard a few guys talking about how spectacular the course is. Can't wait to see the pics!
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Matthew Petersen on January 11, 2018, 10:43:48 PM
Definitely would like to see this. The bits posted on the web site are intriguing.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jeremy Blumberg on January 13, 2018, 11:07:14 AM
Having played less than 24 hours after 2 solid days of rain, I'd say the course handled it quite well. There were soggy spots for sure, but the greens drained well and there were very few areas in the fairways that I would consider casual water. 48 hours later the course was reasonably dry. They're letting carts back out today (I personally have never played the course in a cart!).


Unfortunately, on hole 8 (a downhill, dogleg left with a punishing waste bunker to the front right of a narrow green) there was a minor mudslide from a residence up the hill on the left side of the fairway. Won't take much to clean it up, but the underlying issue will need to be addressed of course.



One interesting advantage I found in terms of "learning" my new course was my play just after the rain. The challenge and interest in the design so far comes mainly from the green surrounds and undulating greens. Seeing where the water drained confirmed some of what I had been seeing, but also revealed subtle breaks and undulations that were less obvious.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Adam Lawrence on January 13, 2018, 11:49:36 AM
GCA is out; for those who don't get the paper magazine, here's my piece on Rolling Hills.


http://digital.tudor-rose.co.uk/golf-course-architecture/issue51/#58 (http://digital.tudor-rose.co.uk/golf-course-architecture/issue51/#58)
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jeremy Blumberg on January 14, 2018, 11:28:39 AM
Nice article Adam. Did you get a chance to play the course in its entirety?


I was worried about the bunker in the middle of the 18th green when they first announced that play. I though it would be gimmicky, but in reality it is a fantastic addition to the finishing hole that makes strategy (starting on the tee box) paramount. For example,
if the hole placement is directly behind the bunker (back right) a tee shot that ends up way right (on the 16th tee box) offers a blind, but often easier approach. If the hole is in front of the bunker, I like to be on the left side of the 18th fairway (but, there is a large barranca and large fairway bunker running the left side of the fairway that makes this tee shot more difficult.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Adam Lawrence on January 14, 2018, 11:56:59 AM
Nice article Adam. Did you get a chance to play the course in its entirety?


I was worried about the bunker in the middle of the 18th green when they first announced that play. I though it would be gimmicky, but in reality it is a fantastic addition to the finishing hole that makes strategy (starting on the tee box) paramount. For example,
if the hole placement is directly behind the bunker (back right) a tee shot that ends up way right (on the 16th tee box) offers a blind, but often easier approach. If the hole is in front of the bunker, I like to be on the left side of the 18th fairway (but, there is a large barranca and large fairway bunker running the left side of the fairway that makes this tee shot more difficult.


Jeremy -- no, it wasn't open. But I spent a couple of days walking round the property with David and Nick, and also on my own, and several hours chipping and putting on some of the greens. I suspect that the kicker mound on the Redannaritz isn't quite big enough -- it was hard to get the ball off it to a back pin -- and, like you, I really love the bunker in the eighteenth green. David said to me that the reason they had the green so big is that if the bunker doesn't work, they can just convert the green to the area behind the bunker. But I spent A LOT of time putting around that green. The hardest -- possibly impossible -- shot, I felt, would be if you went to the back of the green, especially on the top side, and the pin was front left. I couldn't see how you get to that pin. But for the situation to arise you'd have had to miss your approach by about sixty yards, so you probably deserve all you get  :)
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Mark Kiely on January 15, 2018, 12:23:53 AM
Yes, wonderful article, Adam!


Also looking forward to hearing more from Jeremy. Welcome to the site! I, too, would love to see pictures if you ever take any.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jeremy Blumberg on January 18, 2018, 12:48:46 PM
Nice article Adam. Did you get a chance to play the course in its entirety?


I was worried about the bunker in the middle of the 18th green when they first announced that play. I though it would be gimmicky, but in reality it is a fantastic addition to the finishing hole that makes strategy (starting on the tee box) paramount. For example,
if the hole placement is directly behind the bunker (back right) a tee shot that ends up way right (on the 16th tee box) offers a blind, but often easier approach. If the hole is in front of the bunker, I like to be on the left side of the 18th fairway (but, there is a large barranca and large fairway bunker running the left side of the fairway that makes this tee shot more difficult.


Jeremy -- no, it wasn't open. But I spent a couple of days walking round the property with David and Nick, and also on my own, and several hours chipping and putting on some of the greens. I suspect that the kicker mound on the Redannaritz isn't quite big enough -- it was hard to get the ball off it to a back pin -- and, like you, I really love the bunker in the eighteenth green. David said to me that the reason they had the green so big is that if the bunker doesn't work, they can just convert the green to the area behind the bunker. But I spent A LOT of time putting around that green. The hardest -- possibly impossible -- shot, I felt, would be if you went to the back of the green, especially on the top side, and the pin was front left. I couldn't see how you get to that pin. But for the situation to arise you'd have had to miss your approach by about sixty yards, so you probably deserve all you get  :)


Adam, having successfully used the kicker mound to get to the back tier of the Redannaritz green on the 10th hole, I think it is big enough, but it is a particularly difficult feat if you are doing so with a fairway metal. I think I'd be able to pull off that shot a small percentage of the time. But, the hole is a shorter length Par 5 and so there is certainly an option to play 3 clever shots to the green. I actually find the pin placement in the lower middle tier to be the easiest to get to. When the pin is on the front portion, it tends to create (for me at least) a tendency to hit a tentative shot for not wanting to end up on another tier. All in all, a very interesting hole with many options.


The issue of getting to a front left pin from the back of the 18th green (behind the bunker)--I've not been in this position yet, but I am certain there is a way to get the ball down there. You'd be putting the ball up one of the slopes off the green in an attempt to get around the bunker and down to the front left (but yes, it would be a big miss, so the punishment is apt)
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jeremy Blumberg on January 21, 2018, 12:33:14 PM
Wanted to add another important impression I realized during a round this past week:


There is not one hole on the course that requires an aerial shot directly at a pin--there are certainly instances where one may play this way, but all 18 holes (Par 3s included) offer a ground play, or play well away from the pin that can be rewarded. This is in stark contrast to some of our other local courses where often the only play is direct to the pin or center of the green. But there is a course conditioning component to this as well and our Superintendent Bob Vaughey and his team are committed to keeping the course conditions firm so that the undulations of the design can be used as intended.
The course is in it's infancy, but it is already firm enough to play the ground game and and I look forward to it becoming even firmer.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Tim Leahy on January 21, 2018, 02:53:36 PM
Any chance this might be a future Kings Putter venue? Maybe mix in a round at PVCC or Los Verdes.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jeremy Blumberg on January 26, 2018, 09:25:26 AM
Tim, can you send me more detailed information (or a link to more information) about the King's Putter?


The cool thing about a potential event that would include Rolling Hills CC and Palos Verdes GC is that the courses could not be more different despite the fact that they are only a few miles from one another. Los Verdes (also very close) enjoys distant ocean views, but the conditioning is typically so-so and the rounds can last 6 hours!
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Brad Tufts on January 26, 2018, 12:23:25 PM
Having played PV and Trump, Palos Verdes may have the most diverse set of golf courses in any town in the USA, if not worldwide!


PV, old and quirky
Trump, modern and wild
RH, new inspired by old
LV, old-ish, muni
Terranea, new, par 3 course


What town boasts a Thomas/Billy Bell, a Billy Bell Jr., a Dye/Trump, an Eckenrode, and a Kidd course?
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Daryl David on January 27, 2018, 01:15:19 PM
Having played PV and Trump, Palos Verdes may have the most diverse set of golf courses in any town in the USA, if not worldwide!


PV, old and quirky
Trump, modern and wild
RH, new inspired by old
LV, old-ish, muni
Terranea, new, par 3 course


What town boasts a Thomas/Billy Bell, a Billy Bell Jr., a Dye/Trump, an Eckenrode, and a Kidd course?


Need to reclassify from "what town" to perhaps what peninsula can boast.  Palos Verdes CC is in Palos Verdes Estates, Rolling Hills is in Rolling Hills Estates, Trump, Los Verdes and Terranea are in Rancho PV Estates.  Different towns.   ;)
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Tim Leahy on January 27, 2018, 01:57:12 PM
Tim, can you send me more detailed information (or a link to more information) about the King's Putter?


The cool thing about a potential event that would include Rolling Hills CC and Palos Verdes GC is that the courses could not be more different despite the fact that they are only a few miles from one another. Los Verdes (also very close) enjoys distant ocean views, but the conditioning is typically so-so and the rounds can last 6 hours!


You can use the search function on this site for "Kings Putter" and find prior tourny's. It is basically an annual regional tourny open to GCA posters that is organized by a member or a few members over two or three days on interesting courses in their areas. In the past we have played Stone Eagle, Sherwood, Ojai and others. If you want to guage interest and find others who might want to help set it up just post a topic titled Kings Putter. Right now there is no scheduled host for 2018. Last year was at Bandon and the tourny usually winds up North vs South with the winning team receiving the Kings Putter. Costs and travel dates are variable and open to whatever you can come to a consensus.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Pete_Pittock on January 29, 2018, 03:42:39 AM
Sent Jerry a PM giving more c ompletedetail about the KP, since Tim chimed in.. Sounds like an interesting course, have seen DMK's work and Tetherow and Gamble Sands. Hope this is somewhere in between and you really enjoy your membership.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Pete Lavallee on January 29, 2018, 08:28:43 PM
We have certainly exhausted all the interesting public venues on the west coast. We have been lucky to be hosted at several private facilities and are always grateful for the opportunity to enjoy them with the Ryder Cup style format. Iím sure Rolling Hill would generate a lot of interest should a member be willing to host us.
Title: Re: Rolling Hills - Palos Verdes CA David Kidd redesign
Post by: Jeremy Blumberg on February 24, 2018, 10:11:17 AM
On the topic of King's Putter--sounds great and I would love to participate at some point. I'll discuss with our director of golf as well.




Past 2 days have been BRUTALLY windy and the course picks up so much more character (in my opinion). I even just love how it looks when the flagsticks are bowing sideways.


The almost complete lack of trees on the course--there are really no trees that are actually in play--exposes us more to the wind and I think it is adding an element of interest that is not commonly found these days in Southern California.


Also, because the ground game is playable--even preferable in many spots--I feel the course is playable in the stiff wind if done correctly.