Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim Colton on March 19, 2014, 09:29:37 AM
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Modern: http://golfweek.com/news/2014/mar/19/golf-courses-golfweeks-best-modern-courses-2014/
Classic: http://golfweek.com/news/golfweeks-best/classic-courses/
Next 100s
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/mar/19/golf-courses-golfweeks-best-classic-courses-next-1/
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/mar/19/golf-courses-golfweeks-best-modern-courses-next-10/
Public by State
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/mar/19/golf-courses-golfweeks-best-state-by-state-2014/
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Okay, why is Lawsonia in free fall?
Is Barton Hills poised to jump significantly next year like Old Town did this year?
Where is Tobacco Road - not top 200 or did I miss something?
Ciao
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Ouch Lawsonia. What happened?
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Is Barton Hills poised to jump significantly next year like Old Town did this year?
Ciao
Interesting that they chose not to show the average rating for the Next 100s. I think less ratings are required to be on the Next 100 than the main list so the courses at the top of the Next 100s could be well up on the main lists if they had the votes.
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Is Barton Hills poised to jump significantly next year like Old Town did this year?
It already skyrocketed from 185 to 101 this year.
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I think the GA state rankings are taking good form.
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Can someone explain the methodology or link to it? Having trouble finding it on the website.
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Nice to see Bandon Trails finally getting the credit it deserves in some very tough company at the resort, even if it does come at Kingsley's expense. Lawsonia's freefall makes no sense whatsoever. Palmetto drops 23 spots? It's not as if these are new courses that are trying to find their true level. Brad, you got some 'splainin' to do...
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Dismal Doak 39
Dismal Nicklaus 152
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I think the GA state rankings are taking good form.
Sea Island Retreat course is a new entrant on the Georgia state rankings at #7. Did it have recent work?
2013 list for reference:
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/07/2013-golfweeks-best-courses-state-state/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest (http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/07/2013-golfweeks-best-courses-state-state/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest)
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Stonewall Old #93!
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Congratulations to Dunlop White!
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Beverly CC in Chicago snuck back into the Top 100 at 93.
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Squire Creek ranked ahead of Hawk's Ridge ! ! !
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Some Modern moves of note:
Dunes Club +5
Streamsong Blue -4
Greywalls +12
Hazeltine +20
Dormie -20
Lost Dunes -12
Black Diamond (Quarry) -24
Caledonia -15
Erin Hills +18
Dismal Nicklaus +41
Rustic Canyon -23
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Congratulations to Dunlop White!
+1
Congrats!
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Can someone explain the methodology or link to it? Having trouble finding it on the website.
http://www.wsj-classified.com/downloads/Golfweek_Rater_Handbook_2009_2010.pdf
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Some Modern moves of note:
Dunes Club +5
Streamsong Blue -4
Greywalls +12
Hazeltine +20
Dormie -20
Lost Dunes -12
Black Diamond (Quarry) -24
Caledonia -15
Erin Hills +18
Dismal Nicklaus +41
Rustic Canyon -23
How about Paa-Ko Ridge going from 63 to 96 and Black Mesa going from 89 to 137. Did a group of GWers lose a lot of money in the casinos?
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Obviously these lists really only exist to get clicks, sell magazines, and provoke discussion. On that front the Golfweek list does just fine.
But when you have classic courses moving 20 or more spots in one direction or another, even without a renovation being done or a total collapse in course conditions, it becomes really hard to take the list seriously. Irrespective of our personal feelings about the list, any process that produces that much variation in an essentially closed system - there aren't any new Classic courses getting built - is too flawed to fret too much over (unless you're in the industry and a few rating points might help your course secure a little more revenue, in which case it really stinks).
It's fun to argue about though. I'll give it that.
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What about Belvedere? I am as big a fan as any, but I am struggling to see how the course is 142 in its current state of Belveder Light - unless bunker work etc happened drecently?
Ciao
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With the exception of Nanea, Tom Fazio owns 101 to 109. :o
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Tamarack CC +31 with a bullet! Is Fazio the king of new buzz courses that start drifting lower the day after their first ranking?
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Old Town Club under Coore restoration moved light years ahead, unprecedented for a Classic Course. Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.
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Some Modern moves of note:
Dunes Club +5
Streamsong Blue -4
Greywalls +12
Hazeltine +20
Dormie -20
Lost Dunes -12
Black Diamond (Quarry) -24
Caledonia -15
Erin Hills +18
Dismal Nicklaus +41
Rustic Canyon -23
Black Sheep +18
A nice reward for Dave Esler in putting up with us at last night's GCA Chicago dinner.
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Old Town Club under Coore restoration moved light years ahead, unprecedented for a Classic Course. Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.
Brad,
This is interesting given Lawsonia's scores have been climbing since 2009. I haven't been there in years, but has the conditioning deteriorated significantly in 2013 relative to prior years? Was the roll-off of old scores? How many new votes did you get in 2013 enough to drop it from 7.34 to something below 6.84?
2013 7.34
2012 7.30
2011 7.23
2010 7.19
2009 7.17
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Old Town Club under Coore restoration moved light years ahead, unprecedented for a Classic Course. Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.
Brad,
This is interesting given Lawsonia's scores have been climbing since 2009. I haven't been there in years, but has the conditioning deteriorated significantly in 2013 relative to prior years? Was the roll-off of old scores? How many new votes did you get in 2013 enough to drop it from 7.34 to something below 6.84?
2013 7.34
2012 7.30
2011 7.23
2010 7.19
2009 7.17
Not to mention the recent additional tree removal... I wonder how much last season's difficult weather for maintenance in some parts of the country affected the relative conditioning scores...
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Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.
Interesting statement. The recent reviews from GCAers would lead you to believe the playing conditions have been steadily improving ???
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I'm gonna start a magazine, just so I can have a rankings issue -- but only one such issue, ever. And I'm going to select raters, but there will only be 4 of them, and never more than that: Brett H, Sean A, Shel and Don M. They will play 150 classic courses over 3 or 4 years (and while they are doing that I'll just fill the magazine with long-formed and superlative writing, nothing under 10,000 words, by me and my friends). When they're done, I'll have Brett, Sean, Shel and Don rank the best classic courses, and that will be it. It will never have to be done again, since no new courses will ever be added to the 'classic' category and since, well, excuse me, but if a course hasn't proved its worth in 40 or 50 or 60 years, it's not going to do it next week.
Peter
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Big moves in the modern rankings aren't that remarkable, to me at least, when the 36-spot difference between #64 and #100 is only .18 points -- a smaller difference than between #1 and #2, and between #2 and #3, and between #3 and #7.
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Did Golfweek have an outing at Spring Island?
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Big moves in the modern rankings aren't that remarkable, to me at least, when the 36-spot difference between #64 and #100 is only .18 points -- a smaller difference than between #1 and #2, and between #2 and #3, and between #3 and #7.
Carl,
Good point, but that only serves to highlight the silliness of the entire endeavor in this type of format, unless of course your goal is to sell magazines, advertising or website hits. A lot of people, stupid as they may be, continue to place a lot more importance on #64 than #101 in terms of time, effort and money than is justified by the methodology or math.
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I think the GA state rankings are taking good form.
Sea Island Retreat course is a new entrant on the Georgia state rankings at #7. Did it have recent work?
2013 list for reference:
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/07/2013-golfweeks-best-courses-state-state/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest (http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/07/2013-golfweeks-best-courses-state-state/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest)
My guess is that they are only now categorizing it as publicly accessible. I prefer it to the Reynolds Plantation courses.
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Big moves in the modern rankings aren't that remarkable, to me at least, when the 36-spot difference between #64 and #100 is only .18 points -- a smaller difference than between #1 and #2, and between #2 and #3, and between #3 and #7.
Carl,
Good point, but that only highlights the silliness of the entire endeavor in this type of format, unless of course your goal is to sell magazines, advertising or website hits. A lot of people, stupid as they may be, place a lot more importance on #64 than #101 in terms of time, effort and money than is justified by the methodology or math.
Jud--
Note that I didn't say anything inconsistent with what you're saying!
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Ouch Lawsonia. What happened?
Seriously, WTF. That makes no sense to me. I was there in the fall and it was in the best condition I've seen it in and they continue to restore more of its features.
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Old Town Club under Coore restoration moved light years ahead, unprecedented for a Classic Course. Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.
Lawsonia struggled in 2012 with the drought conditions but rebounded nicely last year. I played July 4th weekend and conditions were quite fine. It will be interesting to see what happens this year with Oliphant taking over all operations at Lawsonia. They took all the trees out on the hill surrounding the 13th and 14th greens this winter so that will be something to see. I plan to get some photos once its nice enough to golf up there.
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Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it.
That's interesting, because I thought the course was in incredible condition this past Columbus Day weekend.
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Amazing how Winchester has fallen. It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic. I don't get it. And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years. Way under-appreciated, I think.
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What about Belvedere? I am as big a fan as any, but I am struggling to see how the course is 142 in its current state of Belveder Light - unless bunker work etc happened drecently?
Ciao
+1. Belvedere is a "nice" golf course. I'm even more puzzled by Mimosa Hills' debut at 179, another "nice" golf course.
WHAT HAPPENED TO LULU?
Surprised by the dramatic drops for Rustic Canyon and Erin Hills. Alotian at 101 - lights out indeed.
Bogey
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Bogey,
Erin Hills went UP 18 spots vs. last year. Not sure there's 141 classic courses I'd rather play than Belvedere...
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Amazing how Winchester has fallen. It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic. I don't get it. And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years. Way under-appreciated, I think.
Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible. But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?
Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett
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Amazing how Winchester has fallen. It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic. I don't get it. And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years. Way under-appreciated, I think.
Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible. But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?
Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett
Mark:
That's a good list; it's amazing we don't have a Boston contingent on here, shouting down the Philly guys about who has the best metro area.
However, to your question, I'd put Winchester equal to or ahead of Worcester, Newport, Salem and Brae Burn. Also, I haven't seen Vesper or Charles River, but I would be shocked if I thought either was better than Winchester.
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Amazing how Winchester has fallen. It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic. I don't get it. And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years. Way under-appreciated, I think.
Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible. But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?
Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett
Mark:
That's a good list; it's amazing we don't have a Boston contingent on here, shouting down the Philly guys about who has the best metro area.
However, to your question, I'd put Winchester equal to or ahead of Worcester, Newport, Salem and Brae Burn. Also, I haven't seen Vesper or Charles River, but I would be shocked if I thought either was better than Winchester.
Tom, I'll give you Salem and may even concede Worcester (though the restoration is excellent), but I can't see it ahead of Newport.
I'd also have Winchester ahead of Vesper and Charles River but wouldn't argue it strongly.
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A course ranked 50th in the nation gets 8 points. A course ranked 51st gets 7 points. So minuscule changes in ranking can sometimes lead to big moves in the ranking.
On the other hand, ranking a course 16th gives it the same score as ranking it 50th (8 points). i.e. GW's system does not lend itself to much precision.
A few other interesting points:
Pac Dunes average score is under 9. That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses. In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking.
Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best. Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do. Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.
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Amazing how Winchester has fallen. It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic. I don't get it. And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years. Way under-appreciated, I think.
Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible. But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?
Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett
Mark:
That's a good list; it's amazing we don't have a Boston contingent on here, shouting down the Philly guys about who has the best metro area.
However, to your question, I'd put Winchester equal to or ahead of Worcester, Newport, Salem and Brae Burn. Also, I haven't seen Vesper or Charles River, but I would be shocked if I thought either was better than Winchester.
I agree with your assessment of Winchester vs. Brae Burn and personally prefer the golf course to Charles River. I think Worcester post-renovation is close to a draw. I have not played Newport, Salem, or Vesper, although most people I know love Salem.
There is a Boston contingent, we are just quiet because we know the strong feelings that most have towards Philly. Throw in two modern top 20's (Boston Golf and Old Sandwich), Eastward Ho! down on the cape, and Sankaty on Nantucket and the list is even more compelling. But I digress...
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Pac Dunes average score is under 9. That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses. In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking.
Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best. Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do. Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.
I suppose that could be ... but even the rating for Sand Hills is only 9.22, which means less than half the panelists put it in the top 5 modern courses. That seems unlikely to me.
I suspect that fewer 9's and 10's are awarded to the modern courses, because voters are comparing the numbers to the classics. They are supposed to be separate polls, but the magazine has produced a bunch of derivative lists which combine the numbers, and the panelists vote on both at the same time, so it wouldn't be surprising if they think of them together.
Of course, there are lots of GOLFWEEK panelists here, so they can certainly correct me if my hunch is wrong.
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A course ranked 50th in the nation gets 8 points. A course ranked 51st gets 7 points. So minuscule changes in ranking can sometimes lead to big moves in the ranking.
On the other hand, ranking a course 16th gives it the same score as ranking it 50th (8 points). i.e. GW's system does not lend itself to much precision.
A few other interesting points:
Pac Dunes average score is under 9. That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses. In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking.
Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best. Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do. Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.
Jim, I'm not a GW rater, but I'm fairly certain that they have the ability to enter in gradients and not just whole numbers.
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Jim, that is correct.
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No reason to be coy...
Golfweek raters score the course on a ten point scale using .1 gradients. So, despite Tom's comment above, the raters might all rank Sand Hills number one modern but the raters are not required to give it a 10. I, for example, would hesitate to give any course a 10 because that leaves me no room to ever rate a course more highly.
Bart
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No reason to be coy...
Golfweek raters score the course on a ten point scale using .1 gradients. So, despite Tom's comment above, the raters might all rank Sand Hills number one modern but the raters are not required to give it a 10. I, for example, would hesitate to give any course a 10 because that leaves me no room to ever rate a course more highly.
Despite my comment? I think we're agreeing there ... the numbers submitted for the top courses are lower on the modern side, which is why the numbers for Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes are lower than for the top classic courses, rather than it being a matter of "less unanimity" about which are the best modern courses.
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Bogey,
Erin Hills went UP 18 spots vs. last year. Not sure there's 141 classic courses I'd rather play than Belvedere...
Well, I know two classic courses in Michigan very well which I think best Belvedere.
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Pac Dunes average score is under 9. That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses. In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking.
Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best. Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do. Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.
I suppose that could be ... but even the rating for Sand Hills is only 9.22, which means less than half the panelists put it in the top 5 modern courses. That seems unlikely to me.
I suspect that fewer 9's and 10's are awarded to the modern courses, because voters are comparing the numbers to the classics. They are supposed to be separate polls, but the magazine has produced a bunch of derivative lists which combine the numbers, and the panelists vote on both at the same time, so it wouldn't be surprising if they think of them together.
Of course, there are lots of GOLFWEEK panelists here, so they can certainly correct me if my hunch is wrong.
Tom:
The rating of 9.22 does not mean that half the panelists voted it outside the top 5 modern....all of the panelists may have voted it the number one modern at it still could have scored a 9.22. There is no 10 point must system for the number one course.
Bart
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Sean,
You need to play Battle Creek CC (MI)
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Tom:
The rating of 9.22 does not mean that half the panelists voted it outside the top 5 modern....all of the panelists may have voted it the number one modern at it still could have scored a 9.22. There is no 10 point must system for the number one course.
Bart
Bart: I get that. But Jim Nugent was saying the score of Pacific Dunes meant that "quite a few panelists did not vote for it among the top 15," and I questioned that for the same reason.
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Sean,
You need to play Battle Creek CC (MI)
B
"Need" implies desperation ;D I haven't yet hit that stage in life. There are far too many wonderful courses to worry about being too particular.
Ciao
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U are as particular as they come :o
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U are as particular as they come :o
It depends on what it costs me in time and money :D
Ciao
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Congratulations to Dunlop White!
+1
Congrats!
+2
Let's all re-read Dunlop White and resist trying to apply science to an art form.
Having said that, rankings are with us for the duration and debates that follow here do tweak the mind.
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One more time!!!
Golfweek raters do NOT Rank courses. They assign ratings. The rankings are done by averaging the ratings provided by all raters who submit a rating for a particular course. That is why I always object to being referred to as a "ranker: I don't rank. I rate. I may give two courses the exact same rating which means I would not necessarily rank one above the other. I leave the ranking to Brad and his large and capable staff of mathematicians
Jim
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Good to see Jeff Brauer's work getting recognized on the public list, i.e. the top 3 courses in Kansas and the top 2 courses in Minnesota are each his.
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I'm confused how the worst Nicklaus got third in the entire state of TN when no one I know likes it better than Harrison bay or even Tim's Ford?
Also, how did Legends Moorland beat out Strantz True Blue, Tidewater, and Tpc of Myrtle in S Carolina?
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I simply must say it again,
The story behind this year's Golfweek Ratings is Old Town.
Kudos!!!
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However, to your question, I'd put Winchester equal to or ahead of Worcester, Newport, Salem and Brae Burn. Also, I haven't seen Vesper or Charles River, but I would be shocked if I thought either was better than Winchester.
Winchester is a better course than Vesper. I've played all on that list except the River and Winchester compares very capably with those.
I would rather though play Newport over Winchester any day.
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Top 100 Classic #24- The Country Club composite course.
What is the criteria for compiling what I assume is a "best of" routing of an 18+ hole venue? Seems to me there are other "composite" courses that would rank quite high if you could cherry pick the best holes on the property.
Scott
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also need a shout out to Kyle Franz and Mid Pines making an appearance at 77 on the Classic list. I love the restoration and the course. It is definitely a course on which I want to immediately return to the first tee after finishing and play again. Well done.
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Good to see Jeff Brauer's work getting recognized on the public list, i.e. the top 3 courses in Kansas and the top 2 courses in Minnesota are each his.
Also Gaylord Springs in Nashville
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My thoughts on Oregon's Ratings:
Oregon
1. Pacific Dunes, Bandon (No. 2, m) (Yes)
2. Old Macdonald, Bandon (No. 6, m)(Yes)
3. Bandon Dunes, Bandon (No. 8, m)(Yes)
4. Bandon Trails, Bandon (No. 22, m)(Yes)
4a Bandon Preserve (not sure how this could have been included)
5. Tetherow, Bend (m) (not even the best in Central Oregon)
6. Pronghorn (Nicklaus), Bend (m) (worthy)
7. Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek), Cornelius (m)
8. Sunriver (Crosswater), Sunriver (m) (Worthy)
9. Running Y Ranch, Klamath Falls (m) (No comment)
10. Black Butte Ranch (Big Meadow) (m) (2nd best course at the resort)
Courses I feel should be in contention for this list
-Stone Creek
-Aspen Lakes
-Juniper
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A course ranked 50th in the nation gets 8 points. A course ranked 51st gets 7 points. So minuscule changes in ranking can sometimes lead to big moves in the ranking.
On the other hand, ranking a course 16th gives it the same score as ranking it 50th (8 points). i.e. GW's system does not lend itself to much precision.
A few other interesting points:
Pac Dunes average score is under 9. That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses. In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking.
Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best. Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do. Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.
Jim, I'm not a GW rater, but I'm fairly certain that they have the ability to enter in gradients and not just whole numbers.
As I understand it, you guys aren't quite right.
There are two issues, or numbers, at stake. How the raters score each course, and how they rank them. They are different altogether. The scoring is a tool, to help the raters analyze the various courses. But the rankings are what really count. In theory you could score a course at 9.90, but still rank it 50th or 100th -- so long as you gave 50 or 100 courses higher scores.
Those average scores we see next to each course give the average of the RANKINGS. I'm pretty sure for that there are no decimal points. i.e you, the rater, give the course a 10 if you think it's in the top 5 courses. You give it a 9 if you think the course is among 6 to 15.
So if I'm right about that, then it's almost a sure thing that lots of raters rank Pac Dunes outside the top 15. The only other alternative is that some of them give it a ranking score of 2 or 3. Seems real unlikely to me -- the statistical models would probably throw them out as outliers -- and would still require a fair number of them, so long as Pac Dunes gets lots of ballots.
btw, the average scores also tell us the majority of raters (though not all) ranked both Pine Valley and CPC as 10s -- they consider both courses among the top 5 classic in the country.
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One more time!!!
Golfweek raters do NOT Rank courses. They assign ratings. The rankings are done by averaging the ratings provided by all raters who submit a rating for a particular course. That is why I always object to being referred to as a "ranker: I don't rank. I rate. I may give two courses the exact same rating which means I would not necessarily rank one above the other. I leave the ranking to Brad and his large and capable staff of mathematicians
Jim
Jim,
Yes, I also rate. Ranking is done by Brad etal. Never meant to imply anything else.
John
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John, I don't do the ranking. The numbers do that for us - obviously sequential, based on average rating. I know you knew that.
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Guys, I'm wrong, confused or both. Brad, perhaps you can clear up some of my questions.
What exactly does the overall vote (score) each rater gives a course represent? Is it how that rater ranks the course, given the scale in the GW Rater Handbook? In that scale courses ranked in the top 5 get 10 points each. Courses ranked from 6 to 15 get 9 points.
If it's not based on that scale, what exactly does the vote (score) mean? i.e. what does giving, say, an 8 to a course mean to the rater? And also, what then is the purpose of the scale in the handbook -- the one that gives points according to rankings?
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Although incremental, the move of Friars Head ahead of Whistling Straits into the #3 spot finally confirms the ascension of natural vs. manufactured architecture as well as the possibility that GW raters may even know what they are looking at. 8)
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Jim Nugent:
Brad cam correct or confirm my explanation, but I am going to take a stab are responding to your last post regarding the guidelines in the GW rater handbook.
All raters necessarily evaluate courses against some standard. Also, since raters are human, some are naturally inclined to assign liberal ratings while others are more conservative. The guidelines were developed in order to allow raters to have a common standard. All raters are well traveled and have played many of the great courses. A very few have played a high percentage of the great courses. The presumption is that in order to rate a top 100 course, the rater should have played several. Otherwise, a novice might overrate a course simply because it is the best he has ever played.
The guideline is just an aid to help raters have a similar, if not common, standard. A 10 should be assigned to a course only if you think it is deserves to be among the 5 best courses in the category. Naturally, that means that you should not give that rating to more than 5 courses. You are not necessarily comparing it to the other 4 best courses. In fact, it may be the only top 5 course you have ever played. The guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are not hard and fast. It just means that you should be very careful about assigning 8's, 9's, and 10's, because there are not many courses that deserve them. The rater is not being asked to RANK courses. Personally, I resist the temptation to even try to rank courses. I know that I consider my 9's to be better than my 8's, etc., but that is as far as I go.
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Top 100 Classic #24- The Country Club composite course.
What is the criteria for compiling what I assume is a "best of" routing of an 18+ hole venue? Seems to me there are other "composite" courses that would rank quite high if you could cherry pick the best holes on the property.
Scott
This is an interesting point. Where would Royal Melbourne fall, for instance, if they played the composite there? I wonder how many raters actually played the composite course at TCC in sequence as opposed to playing the main course and the Primrose (I guess that doesn't really work though because of the combination of 1 & 2 on Primrose). I don't think they play the composite very often over there- once a month or so.
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Just curious, how many GolfWeek panelists have actually played the composite course at TCC Brookline?
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Just curious, how many GolfWeek panelists have actually played the composite course at TCC Brookline?
I played it in their member/guest. I know of others who have as well.
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The rating of the composite at TCC does create a few issues, as it is rarely in play like that. GD rates the Clyde/Squirrel 9s, which to me is more historic...but probably does knock TCC down a notch or two because its not the current championship layout.
As for the Winchester debate, here's how this lifetime Boston-area resident lists 15 top Mass. courses (not including RI):
Essex
Myopia
TCC (composite or C/S)
Old Sandwich
Kittansett
Boston GC
Taconic
Salem
Concord
Charles River
Winchester
Eastward Ho!
Brae Burn
Longmeadow
Oyster Harbors
My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list: Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset
I would put Newport in the 4-5-6 range above, and Wannamoisett maybe half a notch lower, 5-6-7. Both are great but NCC is just more unique as a course and so important to golf as a sport.
Most puzzling to me GW-wise is the public top 10 in Mass...I've played all of them, and I have Cape Cod National as my #10 public in Mass. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind the GW top ten too much if you just moved CCN to #10 and moved all of them up one spot.
I would love to fight with Philly golf guys about Boston's obvious golf course dominance ;), but I have not played enough of their courses. I've seen the top several but not many of the #5-#15-ranked in Philly courses.
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My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list: Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset
Go run to see Sankaty. Nice to see it move +10 this year to #85.
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Brad,
Not much love for Eastward Ho! or are Winchester and the others simply that good?
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I honestly have love for all of them...they are all very good.
I do like Eastward Ho very much, but it fails just slightly for me in this day and age because it can be overpowered. Same thing for Brae Burn, which is another cool quirky layout. For scratch players the above is true, but for an 18 handicapper, they are both great.
Pretty much all courses above EH on my list are as much as the scratch player can handle. Essex and Myopia are on the shorter side, but both offer such variety and quirk and history that I consider them a cut above.
Winchester did get a bit better with the recent work, especially the amazing 10th green that now has three tiers with 5 or 6 feet of elevation change, and now about 60 yards from front to back!
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Jim Nugent:
Brad cam correct or confirm my explanation, but I am going to take a stab are responding to your last post regarding the guidelines in the GW rater handbook.
All raters necessarily evaluate courses against some standard. Also, since raters are human, some are naturally inclined to assign liberal ratings while others are more conservative. The guidelines were developed in order to allow raters to have a common standard. All raters are well traveled and have played many of the great courses. A very few have played a high percentage of the great courses. The presumption is that in order to rate a top 100 course, the rater should have played several. Otherwise, a novice might overrate a course simply because it is the best he has ever played.
The guideline is just an aid to help raters have a similar, if not common, standard. A 10 should be assigned to a course only if you think it is deserves to be among the 5 best courses in the category. Naturally, that means that you should not give that rating to more than 5 courses. You are not necessarily comparing it to the other 4 best courses. In fact, it may be the only top 5 course you have ever played. The guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are not hard and fast. It just means that you should be very careful about assigning 8's, 9's, and 10's, because there are not many courses that deserve them. The rater is not being asked to RANK courses. Personally, I resist the temptation to even try to rank courses. I know that I consider my 9's to be better than my 8's, etc., but that is as far as I go.
Thanks for the response. It clears up some things for me, while raising a few other questions. It sounds like you loosely follow the scale in the GW handbook. If so, while you don't consider yourself a ranker, it seems to me that's what you do, although you rank by groups.
Can you only assign a whole number as your final vote/score for a course? i.e. 10, 9, 8 etc. Or can you assign 9.5, 8.5 and so forth?
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Jim,
Mac and others confirmed that you can submit scores in tenths.
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Just curious, how many GolfWeek panelists have actually played the composite course at TCC Brookline?
I played it in their member/guest. I know of others who have as well.
I played it. Oh wait, I am not a Golfweek rater. Nevermind.
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Jim,
Mac and others confirmed that you can submit scores in tenths.
Do they mean their final scores for the course, or the scores they give in each of the ten categories? The GW handbook seems to indicate the final scores can come in 0.5 point increments. I'd like to know what 7.5 means to a rater.
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Although incremental, the move of Friars Head ahead of Whistling Straits into the #3 spot finally confirms the ascension of natural vs. manufactured architecture as well as the possibility that GW raters may even know what they are looking at. 8)
Agreed. I don't have firsthand knowledge of Whistling Straits, but based on commentary, and what I've seen in pictures, I am surprised that there aren't more of these less manufactured courses ahead of it.
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In my opinion as a member of the Boston Contingent, I'd say that the ranking of the MA/RI courses is about right. Maybe Kittansett is a bit better than its spot indicates, maybe Wannamoisett is ranked closer to Salem - but neither is outrageously out of position.
As for TCC's Champ (composite) Course, it's my perspective that the course is available for play more frequently than most here believe. In season, it's set up for play about two days per month. On top of that, some of our biggest m/g tournaments have one round played on the Champ Course. On top of that, as long as the course is quiet (early mornings in April/May/September/October/November) one can easily just play the Champ Course. I certainly do that a handful of times per season. The course can be played, and is played, relatively frequently - it's just not always available.
-Stephen
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Shout out to Champion Lakes for making the PA list. Designed, designed, built and run by former Pirates Dick Groat and the late Jerry Lynch. Inexpensive too.
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I played the US Open holes of TCC in an after luncheon 16 person 8 ball, does that count?
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Shout out to Champion Lakes for making the PA list. Designed, designed, built and run by former Pirates Dick Groat and the late Jerry Lynch. Inexpensive too.
Pretty happy about the Jerry Lynch reference. For those younger, or not well versed in baseball history, Jerry Lynch is one of the great "pinch-hitters", a substitute hitter. I looked up some records, and found that Lynch is 10th all-time in career pinch hits, and in 1961, had an amazing 5 home runs and 25 RBIs pinch hitting. If Lynch had played in recent years, he would have been an American League designated hitter.
Also note that fellow 60s era Pirates Manny Mota and Smoky Burgess are also in the top 10 of all time pinch hits.
OK, one more piece of trivia. Dick Groat was a 2-time All-American basketball player at Duke University.
Alright, back to golf.
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Jim,
Mac and others confirmed that you can submit scores in tenths.
Do they mean their final scores for the course, or the scores they give in each of the ten categories? The GW handbook seems to indicate the final scores can come in 0.5 point increments. I'd like to know what 7.5 means to a rater.
Jim
Final score, the only one that counts for the rankings, is given in .1 increments.
Bart
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Bart, if you give a score of 8.1 to a course, what does that mean to you? According to the GW handbook, a score of 8 goes to a top 50 course. Do you follow that same guideline?
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Jim
It means I think it contains slightly more architectural merit than a course I gave an 8.0 and slightly less than a course I scored 8.2
It is really that simple.
As long as I am internally consistent, have seen and scored a relatively large number of courses, and there are a fair number of other opinions to minimize the effect of my one particular score, then that is as good as you can do given any particular group of raters. (The value or lack thereof of the final score then depends on the "quality" of the raters -- which I suspect simply means that high quality raters agree with your point of view about what makes good architecture ;))
Bart
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was it golf digest last year that had the clyde/squirrel 18 ranked for TCC? i think i recall they mentioned that they had more votes in for that loop than the composite so ranked that (or am i entirely off base with my memory??).
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was it golf digest last year that had the clyde/squirrel 18 ranked for TCC? i think i recall they mentioned that they had more votes in for that loop than the composite so ranked that (or am i entirely off base with my memory??).
Correct. "The Country Club's 18 holes that were the scene of the 1963 and 1988 U.S. Opens is not the 18 holes presently ranked by Golf Digest. Those events were played on a composite course, utilizing a few holes from the club's third Primrose nine. For years, the so-called Open Course was available for play one day per week, and enough Golf Digest panelists were able to play the makeshift routing that we were able to rank it. That changed in 1995 and ever since panelists play the Clyde & Squirrel combination, itself good enough to be one of the top courses in the nation. In something of a surprise, architect Rees Jones, whose renovation prior to the '88 Open catapulted his career and triggered an nostalgia craze within the golf design world, was not retained to update the course for the 2013 U.S. Amateur (which will honor Francis Ouimet's famous 1913 upset U.S. Open win over Harry Vardon and Ted Ray). Instead, architect du jour Gil Hanse (of Rio Olympics 2016 fame) was hired to perform some course restoration."
#24 for reference: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-02/americas-100-greatest-golf-courses-ranking?currentPage=3
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The rating of the composite at TCC does create a few issues, as it is rarely in play like that. GD rates the Clyde/Squirrel 9s, which to me is more historic...but probably does knock TCC down a notch or two because its not the current championship layout.
As for the Winchester debate, here's how this lifetime Boston-area resident lists 15 top Mass. courses (not including RI):
Essex
Myopia
TCC (composite or C/S)
Old Sandwich
Kittansett
Boston GC
Taconic
Salem
Concord
Charles River
Winchester
Eastward Ho!
Brae Burn
Longmeadow
Oyster Harbors
My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list: Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset
I would put Newport in the 4-5-6 range above, and Wannamoisett maybe half a notch lower, 5-6-7. Both are great but NCC is just more unique as a course and so important to golf as a sport.
Most puzzling to me GW-wise is the public top 10 in Mass...I've played all of them, and I have Cape Cod National as my #10 public in Mass. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind the GW top ten too much if you just moved CCN to #10 and moved all of them up one spot.
I would love to fight with Philly golf guys about Boston's obvious golf course dominance ;), but I have not played enough of their courses. I've seen the top several but not many of the #5-#15-ranked in Philly courses.
Brad- I think the one that you really want to see is Worcester. They just finished quite a restoration effort last fall including tree clearing and superintendent Jason Harrison has worked very hard to have the course look and play as Ross originally intended. There is a great mix of holes and plenty of elevation change to compliment a very good set of greens. They were interested in having raters out last Fall and it occurs to me that not enough ballots have been cast since the work was completed to improve their standing because I really think it is worthy of Top 100 consideration. Additionally they are very aware of their history as hosts of the inaugural Ryder Cup as well as a Men's and Women's US Open. I would be interested in your opinion after you get a trip around.
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Shout out to Champion Lakes for making the PA list. Designed, designed, built and run by former Pirates Dick Groat and the late Jerry Lynch. Inexpensive too.
Pretty happy about the Jerry Lynch reference. For those younger, or not well versed in baseball history, Jerry Lynch is one of the great "pinch-hitters", a substitute hitter. I looked up some records, and found that Lynch is 10th all-time in career pinch hits, and in 1961, had an amazing 5 home runs and 25 RBIs pinch hitting. If Lynch had played in recent years, he would have been an American League designated hitter.
Also note that fellow 60s era Pirates Manny Mota and Smoky Burgess are also in the top 10 of all time pinch hits.
OK, one more piece of trivia. Dick Groat was a 2-time All-American basketball player at Duke University.
Alright, back to golf.
Lynch was a really nice guy too. Groat is too, just a little more intense. He was drafted #3 overall by the Pistons, but only played a year before going to the military then playing baseball when he returned (NL MVP in 1960). He is 83 now and has been the color commentator for Pitt Panther basketball since 1979. Ok now back to golf. Champion Lakes opened in 1966.
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...... Additionally they are very aware of their history as hosts of the inaugural Ryder Cup as well as a Men's and Women's US Open. I would be interested in your opinion after you get a trip around.
Worcester is the only club that can lay claim to hosting all three of these events (for now). WCC is also one of the few remaining bldgs where you can smoke indoors (men's grill) in MA, & when there is a man working you can also have lunch brought down to eat at the locker room bar. A truly great club.
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...... Additionally they are very aware of their history as hosts of the inaugural Ryder Cup as well as a Men's and Women's US Open. I would be interested in your opinion after you get a trip around.
Worcester is the only club that can lay claim to hosting all three of these events (for now). WCC is also one of the few remaining bldgs where you can smoke indoors (men's grill) in MA, & when there is a man working you can also have lunch brought down to eat at the locker room bar. A truly great club.
That solo distinction will change in two years. When Hazeltine hosts the 2016 Ryder Cup, it will join Worcester as a club that has hosted a US Open, US Women's Open and a Ryder Cup.
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Although incremental, the move of Friars Head ahead of Whistling Straits into the #3 spot finally confirms the ascension of natural vs. manufactured architecture as well as the possibility that GW raters may even know what they are looking at. 8)
Agreed. I don't have firsthand knowledge of Whistling Straits, but based on commentary, and what I've seen in pictures, I am surprised that there aren't more of these less manufactured courses ahead of it.
The incremental rise of Ballyneal also deserves some mention. It is yet further proof to my hypothesis.
John, you are only missing confusion and excessive and borderline regressive eye candy at Whistling Straits. Blackwolf Run's River Course remains the most worthy 18 at Kohler.
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The rating of the composite at TCC does create a few issues, as it is rarely in play like that. GD rates the Clyde/Squirrel 9s, which to me is more historic...but probably does knock TCC down a notch or two because its not the current championship layout.
As for the Winchester debate, here's how this lifetime Boston-area resident lists 15 top Mass. courses (not including RI):
Essex
Myopia
TCC (composite or C/S)
Old Sandwich
Kittansett
Boston GC
Taconic
Salem
Concord
Charles River
Winchester
Eastward Ho!
Brae Burn
Longmeadow
Oyster Harbors
My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list: Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset
I would put Newport in the 4-5-6 range above, and Wannamoisett maybe half a notch lower, 5-6-7. Both are great but NCC is just more unique as a course and so important to golf as a sport.
Most puzzling to me GW-wise is the public top 10 in Mass...I've played all of them, and I have Cape Cod National as my #10 public in Mass. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind the GW top ten too much if you just moved CCN to #10 and moved all of them up one spot.
I would love to fight with Philly golf guys about Boston's obvious golf course dominance ;), but I have not played enough of their courses. I've seen the top several but not many of the #5-#15-ranked in Philly courses.
Salem above Eastward Ho?? No way...
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...... Additionally they are very aware of their history as hosts of the inaugural Ryder Cup as well as a Men's and Women's US Open. I would be interested in your opinion after you get a trip around.
Worcester is the only club that can lay claim to hosting all three of these events (for now). WCC is also one of the few remaining bldgs where you can smoke indoors (men's grill) in MA, & when there is a man working you can also have lunch brought down to eat at the locker room bar. A truly great club.
That solo distinction will change in two years. When Hazeltine hosts the 2016 Ryder Cup, it will join Worcester as a club that has hosted a US Open, US Women's Open and a Ryder Cup.
Hazeltine's also hosted the PGA Championship (2002, Rich Beem won), the U.S. Senior Open and the U.S. Amateur.
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St Louis CC moves up 10 spots into the Top 50 on the Classic list-- nice to see it continue to climb.
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Musgrove Mill, at one point a top 50 course on the modern list, has fallen off the second hundred list. I never understand why it is not ranked as one of the best in the country.
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Jim
It means I think it contains slightly more architectural merit than a course I gave an 8.0 and slightly less than a course I scored 8.2
It is really that simple.
Does it also mean you place the course around 40th or 50th in the nation? i.e. do you follow, more or less, the scale in the GW Handbook?
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More or less, yes
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Is Dormie's slip due to the conditioning challenges that some have spoke of? It was moving up nicely until this year:
2011: #101
2012: #78
2013: #64
2014: #84