Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: William_G on January 07, 2014, 09:02:21 PM
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http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/architect-chosen-for-sand-valley-golf-course-near-wisconsin-rapids-b99179150z1-239117091.html?fb_action_ids=763233880373428&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B1410613555847784%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.recommends%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
it's going to be fun to watch this project 8)
That was quick...
"Sand Valley is progressing quite nicely. So nicely, Keiser has decided to start the second course there, and has narrowed his design candidates to Tom Doak ... or the team of Rod Whitman/Dave Axland. ... Doak appears to be the frontrunner."
See page 2: http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=211327&p=4 (http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=211327&p=4)
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Exciting news...and it's less than two hours away! Great times are ahead for Wisconsin golf.
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You can read more at http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56194.0.html
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thanks Pete...I did look to see if there was a post referring to this news, but didn't see it >:(
I would like to see this site more organized by topic :o
nevertheless, very exciting and nice to see C+C get first crack to find the best routing 8)
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I find it hard to believe that 80% of the 120 investors selected C&C.
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Reading Mike's words closely, he "surveyed 120 founding members. I'd surmise that "survey" was merely an informal conversation that produced some form of majority support for Bill & Ben.
I'm thrilled to know this project is going forward and C&C was chosen for the first course. I'd would be reasonable to believe that others like Jim Urbina, David Kidd and Tom Doak will likely get the next nod, when and if the business model supports multiple courses. Mike also went out of his way to talk with Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio so I'd not be surprised if they get a tract in the future.
I wish all involved great luck and continued success.
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This is going to be a great project and I am excited to see what they put together.
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Mike also went out of his way to talk with Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio so I'd not be surprised if they get a tract in the future.
I'd be pretty surprised. If you read the article, it says Mike also talked to Nicklaus and Fazio, "for whom he has great respect." It doesn't say who called whom.
Naturally, we're bummed we didn't get the nod for course #1 -- it's tough to keep losing out on jobs to the same guys, even if they are friends whom we totally respect. We worked at Bandon and Barnbougle before them, and at Streamsong concurrently; I guess if we work in Wisconsin it will have to be after them, which would make for a different dynamic but could be fun. I just hope there IS a second course, but it sounds very likely from my conversation with Mike a couple of weeks ago.
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Mike also went out of his way to talk with Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio so I'd not be surprised if they get a tract in the future.
I'd be pretty surprised. If you read the article, it says Mike also talked to Nicklaus and Fazio, "for whom he has great respect." It doesn't say who called whom.
Naturally, we're bummed we didn't get the nod for course #1 -- it's tough to keep losing out on jobs to the same guys, even if they are friends whom we totally respect. We worked at Bandon and Barnbougle before them, and at Streamsong concurrently; I guess if we work in Wisconsin it will have to be after them, which would make for a different dynamic but could be fun. I just hope there IS a second course, but it sounds very likely from my conversation with Mike a couple of weeks ago.
Tom,
I read the article quite well thank you. Yes, from the quote below it does not affirm who called whom first. Other than to you, does this really matter?
"In addition to his short list of architects, Keiser also talked to Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus, "both of whom would love to be involved in Wisconsin and both of whom I respect greatly....They've both done amazing courses and we will consider them (for future courses)."
Do you believe Mike deliberately misled the reporter when he mentions his future consideration for their participation? If 4-5 courses eventually get built, do you really believe he might not give either an opportunity? I may certainly prefer playing your designs to theirs, but I'm also reminded by many who don't frequent GCA.com and have the means to travel for higher-end resort golf that they really prefer Nicklaus and Fazio courses. It's a big world these days.
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I'm excited that great architects are going to be building on what appears to be a great site about 4 hours away from home. Here's hoping that the project is a success and Mr. Doak, Mr. Urbina, and Mr. Kidd all get a shot later!
I find it highly unlikely that Kaiser will hand over the land to a Fazio and/or Nicklaus. It's possible, sure, but it would certainly break the successful mold.
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Mike has been informally surveying many over the past year on this subject matter. Who can argue with this selection? Well, me, because my vote went elsewhere! But, in truth, C&C will surely do a terrific job on the first course and then the surveying can begin anew for course #2!
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I find it highly unlikely that Kaiser will hand over the land to a Fazio and/or Nicklaus. It's possible, sure, but it would certainly break the successful mold.
Pat,
I don't think the architect choice is the major component of his successful mold. It very critical but not the biggest part of his success.
SAND
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Midwest Mashie 16?
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Were Doak and Urbina going to work together, or did they make separate, independent presentations?
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I don't think they could have gone wrong picking Coore & Crenshaw or Tom. The land looks spectacular and I'm quite confident this project will be a success and think/hope the 2nd course will be built sooner rather than later. Perhaps the winning formula of having Tom go second needing to clear a very high bar will work again.
The climate and golf market in Wisconsin will make for some interesting choices. I think it’s very wise to maintain a price point below the Kohler properties and Erin Hills to attract a broader range of regional retail golfers. I suspect lower green fees will be possible given the land and construction costs are likely a fraction of what it took to bring Whistling Straits into existence. Another question is will they go fescue which is finally thriving at Erin Hills under a no cart policy. I also wonder given how hot and humid summers get in Wisconsin if they will maintain a no cart policy like Bandon or if they will rotate carts on one of the courses so a walk ride 36 day is reasonable for a broader range of the market in the heat of summer.
Anyone who has doubts should take a look at Brian Zager's photos he posted on the other thread.
http://www.panoramio.com/user/3526258/tags/Future%20Golf%20Course%20Site%3F
They are GPS tagged to location which is pretty neat. I've cribbed a few to post directly here. Thanks Brian.
You can see the extent of land clearing this project will need but also get an idea of the vistas and wide open spaces that will be created once the trees are gone. I can certainly see Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Pine Valley, Sunningdale and Augusta potential in that sand.
I can see Course 4 as a tribute to Harry Colt and Company; “Old Harry.”
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/SV96885673_zps101c82c9.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/96885701_zpsb860cb3a.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/SV96885072_zps3801e73e.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/SV96885582_zps4f982baf.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/96885083_zps42272dd6.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/96884657_zps460977b0.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/96884683_zpsa366030a.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/96884690_zpsf73dfd5e.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/SV96884691_zps24d04814.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Sand%20Valley/96885059_zps44bef2fc.jpg)
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With the paucity of golf courses being built today, I think there's a good chance the early 21st Century is going to be referred to by golf historians as the Coore-Crenshaw/Doak Age of golf course design.
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Seconded on JudT's Mashie 16.
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With all due respect to the many excellent candidates, I dearly hope Sir Nuzzo gets one of the Sand Valley commissions before all is said and done.
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+1 Kyle
I may never get to play Wolf Point so I'd love to see one of his courses with public access.
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Happy to contribute to Old Harry
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With all due respect to the many excellent candidates, I dearly hope Sir Nuzzo gets one of the Sand Valley commissions before all is said and done.
I wonder if Mike Keiser has been to Wolf Point. Hmmmm.
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Another question is will they go fescue which is finally thriving at Erin Hills under a no cart policy. I also wonder given how hot and humid summers get in Wisconsin if they will maintain a no cart policy like Bandon or if they will rotate carts on one of the courses so a walk ride 36 day is reasonable for a broader range of the market in the heat of summer.
Im pretty sure Keiser said its probably going to be bentgrass with carts.
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God, I hope there are no carts. :-X That would be a complete shame on that property.
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God, I hope there are no carts. :-X That would be a complete shame on that property.
+1
It will be interesting to see this flesh out.
Will the founders be casually polled as to carts? Turf? Lodging? or not?
I did hear/read somewhere that it was going to be carts, so how does impact the routing?
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Does that mean it's going to be mandatory carts? And does it mean that there will be designated cart path routes that have to be stuck to... or will the carts be allowed to roam... or travel through sandy waste areas?
I think there are a lot of great courses that allow carts and you wouldn't know the difference.
I really need to get myself to a Coore & Crenshaw course rather than just looking at photos on this site...
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Mike also went out of his way to talk with Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio so I'd not be surprised if they get a tract in the future.
I'd be pretty surprised. If you read the article, it says Mike also talked to Nicklaus and Fazio, "for whom he has great respect." It doesn't say who called whom.
Naturally, we're bummed we didn't get the nod for course #1 -- it's tough to keep losing out on jobs to the same guys, even if they are friends whom we totally respect. We worked at Bandon and Barnbougle before them, and at Streamsong concurrently; I guess if we work in Wisconsin it will have to be after them, which would make for a different dynamic but could be fun. I just hope there IS a second course, but it sounds very likely from my conversation with Mike a couple of weeks ago.
Very well thought out by Mike Keiser and it should be said that it seems only courteous if not fair to have C&C go first and a bit surprised that anyone could be bummed after such a great run.
Sounds like C&C only do a couple of courses per year, so they are far from hoarding all the jobs available.
Doak and C&C are similar yet different in design yet entirely different in personality.
No doubt, without Mike Keiser there would have been no Pacific Dunes etc....
Thank you Mike Keiser.
8)
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Does that mean it's going to be mandatory carts? And does it mean that there will be designated cart path routes that have to be stuck to... or will the carts be allowed to roam... or travel through sandy waste areas?
I think there are a lot of great courses that allow carts and you wouldn't know the difference.
I really need to get myself to a Coore & Crenshaw course rather than just looking at photos on this site...
I'd be shocked if carts were mandatory or if it's cart paths only, except after a big rain. It is a bit dissapointing if they're not growing fescue, which I'd think would be feasible that far north, but if you're talking about a lot of rounds and at least 50% carts it's probably a reasonable concession.
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Naturally, we're bummed we didn't get the nod for course #1 -- it's tough to keep losing out on jobs to the same guys, even if they are friends whom we totally respect.
Very well thought out by Mike Keiser and it should be said that it seems only courteous if not fair to have C&C go first and a bit surprised that anyone could be bummed after such a great run.
Sounds like C&C only do a couple of courses per year, so they are far from hoarding all the jobs available.
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William:
I've only interviewed for three jobs in the past year and a half. Bill and Ben interviewed for two of them and were hired for both. That's a bummer when you've got a crew full of talented people who require opportunities to show what they can do ...
Further, opportunities to build courses for Mr. Keiser are rare, and meaningful.
If I never built another golf course, I could look back on my career with no regrets ... but I think I've got a few more really good courses in me yet, and I hope I have the chance to let them out.
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Golfweek article on Sand Valley:
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/jan/09/sand-valley-mike-keiser-wisconsin-project/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2014/jan/09/sand-valley-mike-keiser-wisconsin-project/)
Includes this paragraph that includes a few dates of upcoming course openings .... including the 2nd courses at SV and Bandon Links.
Keiser will be involved in openings of a new course for the next five years starting with Cabot Cliffs in 2015, Sand Valley in 2016, Bandon Links (the municipal course south of Bandon) in 2017, the second course at Sand Valley in 2018 and the second course at Bandon Links in 2019.
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and to think it was all made possible because of stuff like this:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/205tk3m.jpg)
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From the article in the JournalSentinal:
Founding members pay $50,000 for what is essentially a lifetime membership that is fully refundable and can be passed down to an heir.
What exactly does a founding member receive in benefits? I thought Sand Valley would be a public resort along the lines of Bandon.
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we make news here lol
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2014/01/mike-keiser-along-with-coore-and-crenshaw-looks-to-make-sand.html
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The joys of living in fly-over land, via Geoff Shackelford: "(I)t's tough to argue with any project he (Keiser) undertakes. Even one as remote as this."
I get Geoff's meaning, but to those of us living in the Twin Cities (not to mention Chicago), Bandon Dunes is remote. Streamsong is remote. Cabot Links is really remote.
Sand Valley will be a mere three-hour drive. And I'm excited.
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Rick,
Exactly. There's probably more people within a 4 hour drive of this project than anything else he's been involved with.
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Rick,
Exactly. There's probably more people within a 4 hour drive of this project than anything else he's been involved with.
and it's still remote, LOL
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What's all this chatter about? Tony Ristola already designed Sand Valley, based upon earlier threads.
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In the fall of 2012, (Keiser) sent business partner Josh Lesnik to scout the property. The president of KemperSports promised, "I'll try to make it something you are not interested in."
So much for that.
"I'm very sorry to tell you this," Lesnik told Keiser, "but you are going to love it."
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More details about the discovery of Sand Valley property in this Chicago Tribune article by Teddy:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-golf-sand-valley-spt-0110-20140110,0,1553202.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-golf-sand-valley-spt-0110-20140110,0,1553202.story)
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Howard:
THose of us who are not Tribune subscribers (and I have not since they let Maddux get away) run into a paywall.
Here is how to get around it:
If you use Chrome, go to incognito mode (no cookies), then go to google news and punch in sand valley in the search. First story up.
I think firefox has the same sort of thing but I'm a Chrome man. If you are using explorer, then I have no idea.
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and to think it was all made possible because of stuff like this:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/205tk3m.jpg)
more like this kind of stuff, LOL
(http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a403/thesmiledoctor/sanndra_zps7be1f400.jpg)
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The joys of living in fly-over land, via Geoff Shackelford: "(I)t's tough to argue with any project he (Keiser) undertakes. Even one as remote as this."
I get Geoff's meaning, but to those of us living in the Twin Cities (not to mention Chicago), Bandon Dunes is remote. Streamsong is remote. Cabot Links is really remote.
Sand Valley will be a mere three-hour drive. And I'm excited.
I don't get Geoff's meaning ... but be that as it may:
Make your Sand Valley reservations now. This place is gonna be overrun.
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The joys of living in fly-over land, via Geoff Shackelford: "(I)t's tough to argue with any project he (Keiser) undertakes. Even one as remote as this."
I get Geoff's meaning, but to those of us living in the Twin Cities (not to mention Chicago), Bandon Dunes is remote. Streamsong is remote. Cabot Links is really remote.
Sand Valley will be a mere three-hour drive. And I'm excited.
Rick, from our beloved state, Bandon is really remote, and Cabot Links is just remote :) It probably takes 2-3 less hours from our doors in Minnesota to get to Cabot Links than Bandon
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we make news here lol
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2014/01/mike-keiser-along-with-coore-and-crenshaw-looks-to-make-sand.html
NO JOKE! that blog entry should earn GCA's brain trust some residuals.
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Just please tell me it isn't Sand Valley because of it's appearance as a cross between Sand Hills and Pine Valley...please!!!
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Good news from these parts...
"Keiser briefly considered a collaboration of Coore, Crenshaw and Tom Doak for the first course at Sand Valley. At this point, Lesnik still says Doak is the front-runner to build the second course at Sand Valley. The third course could go to David McLay Kidd, who built the first course at Bandon Dunes."
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/updates-kohler-sand-valley-bandonstreamsong-14472.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/updates-kohler-sand-valley-bandonstreamsong-14472.htm)
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Just please tell me it isn't Sand Valley because of it's appearance as a cross between Sand Hills and Pine Valley...please!!!
Pine Hills was taken. :)
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For the inevitable GCA outing I hereby nominated the name "Cheese Curd Challenge"
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For the inevitable GCA outing I hereby nominated the name "Cheese Curd Challenge"
Wouldn't Sausage Fest be more appropriate?
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It should incorporate the Wisconsin state motto somehow...what about The "Hold My Beer, Honey, and a Watch This" Invitational?
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For the inevitable GCA outing I hereby nominated the name "Cheese Curd Challenge"
Wouldn't Sausage Fest be more appropriate?
Point taken, but perhaps not sufficiently region specific. How about Brat Boondoggle?
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thank god it will be a walking golf place
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For the inevitable GCA outing I hereby nominated the name "Cheese Curd Challenge"
Wouldn't Sausage Fest be more appropriate?
Point taken, but perhaps not sufficiently region specific. How about Brat Boondoggle?
Sausage Fest has a double meaning.
Wisky Walkabout or Beer Brat Brassie.
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This from the GC article:
...though sources suggest Keiser wants to see his Pacific Dunes designer rekindle a partnership with longtime associate Jim Urbina for the design, something Doak has resisted.
Who am I to second guess Mr. Keiser's selection and judgement. Without a doubt C&C will do a fine job. Some articles have gone so far as to say Keiser has been more selective of C&C because they don't design greens and surrounds quite to the slope contouring that TD tends to present. Perhaps we don't know the inside story.
But.... I wonder why Keiser didn't pick TD due to the fact that he has his current talented associate Brian Schneider on the RGD team. This is not to say anything negative about Mr. Urbina. We all know his talent as well. But, Brian is a proven performer from his other significant input in some of RGDs production, since he is one of those that spends all the on-site time shaping and finishing several of their most acclaimed design. The point that Schneider is a native hometown guy from that general area, would suggest he'd give it his all. I sure hope he and the other RGD guys get the next course. It is a no-brainer to me, because just that small tidbit of publicity that a hometown guy had significant input in the project would draw local and regional interest and pride to support the project, iMHO.
Along that same line of thinking, I hope they involve the OJ Noer turf station at the UW in Madison to provide turf species and cultivar decision making assistance. We have a lot of talented folk related to golf design and turf science here in dairyland. ;D 8)
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That was quick...
"Sand Valley is progressing quite nicely. So nicely, Keiser has decided to start the second course there, and has narrowed his design candidates to Tom Doak ... or the team of Rod Whitman/Dave Axland. ... Doak appears to be the frontrunner."
See page 2: http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=211327&p=4 (http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=211327&p=4)
Good luck, Tom.
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Put them together...TDRWDA
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There might be a lot of architectural work to go around...this article says there could be up to five courses at Sand Valley.
http://archive.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140613/WRT01/306130297/Rome-prepares-five-course-golf-resort
The article seems to be down at the moment but I viewed it earler today.
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Is this hipster Mike Keiser in the photo?
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20140613/WRT01/306130297/Rome-prepares-five-course-golf-resort
FYI: THIS LINK IS NO LONGER WORKING.
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That's Mike's oldest son, Michael. He has been involved in the Wisconsin project from the start.
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An update from the Milwaukee paper, with Keiser hinting the first course may be fescue and thus walking only, and a 2017 opening:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/smooth-sailing-for-sand-valley-golf-project-b99315586z1-268208202.html
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Phil,
Thanks. I'm glad he's leaning toward fescue. The main point of differentiation IMO is that there's a dearth of sand based F&F golf with cool season grasses in the midwest, and the country for that matter. There's no reason that far north not to do it, except of course for carts.
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Phil,
Thanks. I'm glad he's leaning toward fescue. The main point of differentiation IMO is that there's a dearth of sand based F&F golf with cool season grasses in the midwest, and the country for that matter. There's no reason that far north not to do it, except of course for carts.
Jud:
I greeted this with mixed emotions:
-- Glad, as you are too, that Keiser is leaning toward fescue, something rarely found in the Midwest. The land up there in Sand Valley would seem to be ideally suited for a fescue-based F&F golfing experience.
-- On the other hand, I do wonder if going to fescue -- and thus presumably a strict ban on carts -- may cut into what is already a truncated golf season for Keiser's venture, esp. relative to his two other well-known projects (Bandon and Cabot). This summer in Wisconsin has been as near-ideal as I can remember for golfng; we just had our first 90+ temps earlier this week, and now it's settled back into this summer's routine of mid-70s/low-80s and low humidity. But it's a small sample size! ;D It's unusual in these parts not to have a decent stretch of ugly high temps with high humidity. Granted, Sand Valley in July isn't Streamsong, but in a region where the normal golf season is typically late-April to early-October, you're looking at 20-25 weeks of dependable golf weather maximum. Can Keiser afford to cut out a week or two of that if his fescue course doesn't allow for the use of carts when the temps get scorching and folks don't want to haul their bags up and down those hills? Maybe he can...
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That's why they have caddies! It is true that 36 will be tricky on hot summer days, but I'd assume that the 2nd course might be more cart-friendly. Get one on the boards, rack up the rankings and PR and then roll out the red carpet...
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I was on a trip past Sand Valley Monday. I intended to get out and take some pix and see how the grubbing of pine and trash bush is going. Unfortunately a pretty decent rain, and lightening storm was passing and I didn't have much time to wait it out. So, the only thing I can report is that an entrance road has had some new heavy crushed rock has been placed presumably to move some heavy equipment in on the sandy road. There was two cars parked at the entry, one with Virginia plates and one with Illinois plates, with that one containing some books in the back seat that were geography manuals apparently of the study of sand dune formations. I wonder if Mr K himself might have been out on the land. I hope they had a lightening proof umbrella or a shelter out there. I walked in with umbrella about 1000 yards and saw no evidence of anyone on the site and no real evidence of work and equipment on site. I wish I had more info to report and would have had a chance to meet some site construction personnel.
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I was on a trip past Sand Valley Monday. I intended to get out and take some pix and see how the grubbing of pine and trash bush is going. Unfortunately a pretty decent rain, and lightening storm was passing and I didn't have much time to wait it out. So, the only thing I can report is that an entrance road has had some new heavy crushed rock has been placed presumably to move some heavy equipment in on the sandy road. There was two cars parked at the entry, one with Virginia plates and one with Illinois plates, with that one containing some books in the back seat that were geography manuals apparently of the study of sand dune formations. I wonder if Mr K himself might have been out on the land. I hope they had a lightening proof umbrella or a shelter out there. I walked in with umbrella about 1000 yards and saw no evidence of anyone on the site and no real evidence of work and equipment on site. I wish I had more info to report and would have had a chance to meet some site construction personnel.
Dick, you would have made a fine cop. [emoticon implied]
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Yeah Rick, probably best not to have been a H.S. English teacher or journalist. ::) :-\
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http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/top-architects-will-compete-right-design-mike-keisers-sand-valley?sct=hp5
Speaking exclusively to Golf.com, Keiser explained that routings have been submitted by Tom Doak, David McLay Kidd and the team of Rod Whitman/Dave Axland. Following an evaluation of all three, a winner will emerge from the bake-off.
“We’re considering all three entries equally,” Keiser said. “On November 15, I’m going to walk the routings, along with a group of advisors. After we’re done, we’re going to blind rate them. We’ll know more after the weekend.”
...
“Jim Craig and Troy Russell (from the Coore-Crenshaw team) are rough grading, roughing in greensites right now,” Keiser said. “We’ll give a few of these greens a trial run before winter sets in.”
[[[Editorial: it is snowing there right now and the long term forecast looks like winter is setting in at this moment.]]]
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Don’t expect to play Sand Valley anytime soon, however. Keiser expects construction throughout 2015, limited preview play in 2016 and a grand opening in 2017. If the track records of Mike Kesier and Coore-Crenshaw are any indication, Sand Valley will be worth the wait.
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Yeah Rick, probably best not to have been a H.S. English teacher or journalist. ::) :-\
And why not? You'd have revolutionized this tired old language, Rico!
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http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/top-architects-will-compete-right-design-mike-keisers-sand-valley?sct=hp5
Speaking exclusively to Golf.com, Keiser explained that routings have been submitted by Tom Doak, David McLay Kidd and the team of Rod Whitman/Dave Axland. Following an evaluation of all three, a winner will emerge from the bake-off.
“We’re considering all three entries equally,” Keiser said. “On November 15, I’m going to walk the routings, along with a group of advisors. After we’re done, we’re going to blind rate them. We’ll know more after the weekend.”
...
“Jim Craig and Troy Russell (from the Coore-Crenshaw team) are rough grading, roughing in greensites right now,” Keiser said. “We’ll give a few of these greens a trial run before winter sets in.”
[[[Editorial: it is snowing there right now and the long term forecast looks like winter is setting in at this moment.]]]
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Don’t expect to play Sand Valley anytime soon, however. Keiser expects construction throughout 2015, limited preview play in 2016 and a grand opening in 2017. If the track records of Mike Kesier and Coore-Crenshaw are any indication, Sand Valley will be worth the wait.
Well look at that... A good, old fashioned architectural competition... Plus he's going to blind rate the routings.
I wonder how much weighting he will then put on those routings once he has taken the blindfolds off?
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All those architects are better people (and better professionals) than I am, or sadly could ever imagine myself being.
If I had 30 years of successful experience and had already done great work(s) for a client and then he came and told me I'd have to work my ass off and "audition" as if I were an unproven rookie just to serve his own personal marketing ends I think I'd tell him to go f--k himself.
It would of course be stupid of me, and ego-driven, and would cut off my nose to spite my face...but I don't think I could stop myself. Is there even one of the rich and powerful who actually respects anyone else/any talent more than he does his own whims and self-conceits?
Peter
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Peter,
I am curious how this process would be serving Keiser's own marketing end? I must be missing it.
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Keith,
It is marketing or why would we even be hearing about it?
Just like the article about the "investors" playing dirt golf "as a bald eagle lazily soared overhead"
And it isn't truly blind or we wouldn't even know the names of the architects involved.
I'm sure it will be great, and I'm sure it will be lauded, but this is starting to feel funny....if Trump was doing any of this the press wold be all over him.
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It's a bake off. Pretty common in a lot of professions.
Everyone submitting is highly qualified, so this seems like a pretty good way to choose an architect - choosing people he highly respects, but then basing the decision on their vision for the property.
I don't see what the issue is.
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If I had 30 years of successful experience and had already done great work(s) for a client and then he came and told me I'd have to work my ass off and "audition" as if I were an unproven rookie just to serve his own personal marketing ends I think I'd tell him to go f--k himself.
I had the same reaction. But it's clearly a buyer's market, and Keiser is the most valued buyer of all.
Still amazes me that Doak -- who will end up as one of the top few architects of all time IMO -- has to 'prove' himself, to a guy he has already designed three of the world's top 30 or 40 ranked courses for.
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1. Tom Coughlin has won a few super bowls, but his Giants are currently in sad shape. Does he get his pick of the next coaching opening? Not if it's the most important and successful owner in the game.
2. If Mr. Keiser continuously gives work to group A and group B only, he eliminates hope from the lexicon of young and/or deserving architects.
3. Mr. Keiser seems to repeatedly break ground in this industry. I can't recall a process like this before.
4. None of the architectural firms in the "finals" was forced to be there, just as none of them was forced to submit a proposal to Rio Olympics.
5. I would have different words for Mr. Keiser, like "Thanks for the opportunity to bid on stateside work."
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Don,
I get the fact that the article is written as a marketing ploy. What I don't get is what Peter thinks Keiser's marketing goal is. It seems like Most people are directly referencing Doak having to audition for the job. Doak is also the most famous of the remaining architects. Why is this process a better means to a marketing end than just hiring Doak and having a press Blitz?
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As we learned at a questionable course in a well known location, routing is only a part of the process. ::) ::)
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As we learned at a questionable course in a well known location, routing is only a part of the process. ::) ::)
And this is the reason it is a marketing ploy; to pretend it's blind.
Other than that, it's a perfectly fair and reasonable approach. I can't understand Peter (and others) outrage.
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Like the Olympic course process, which wasn't blind, this might bode well for the underdogs. Too hard to tell, and I have no doubt all are motivated, but sometimes architecture is just like sports and the guy who is most motivated wins.
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Don,
I get the fact that the article is written as a marketing ploy. What I don't get is what Peter thinks Keiser's marketing goal is. It seems like Most people are directly referencing Doak having to audition for the job. Doak is also the most famous of the remaining architects. Why is this process a better means to a marketing end than just hiring Doak and having a press Blitz?
I'm not referencing Doak or anyone else. I've been pretty consistent on the topic of Sand Valley's marketing and that is I think it is being over done, over hyped. But maybe it is just not possible to do that and everyone is more than happy to read the same breaking news over and over.
I am excited to see the course(s) when they are done.
Re the "contest" I don't believe for a second that the key principles are going to be seeing the routings for the first time or that they will not know who did what. I think this group is just too hands on (a good thing) to let that happen. Which is why I think it is a bit of a marketing ploy; the blind taste test and all.
The interview itself which includes demonstrating the route one would take to build the golf course seems a reasonable process, but the idea that the key decision makers are going to go out there completely blind and say...ok, course 1 starts here and is the blue stakes, course 2 starts here and is the red...
If that truly is the case I hope Coore is one of MK's advisers.
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Don,
I agree with everything you say. I have never been part of a bid process, and just assumed that some form of competition was always part of it.
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I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the winning architect winds up adopting concepts raised by the unsuccessful "bidders". This process is no sham; its Keiser's way of getting a lot of input from very talented people.
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Tom Coughlin has won a few super bowls, but his Giants are currently in sad shape. Does he get his pick of the next coaching opening? Not if it's the most important and successful owner in the game.
Ron, do you really think Doak's courses are in 'sad shape?' Seems to me he keeps designing US or world top-100 courses.
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Tom Coughlin has won a few super bowls, but his Giants are currently in sad shape. Does he get his pick of the next coaching opening? Not if it's the most important and successful owner in the game.
Ron, do you really think Doak's courses are in 'sad shape?' Seems to me he keeps designing US or world top-100 courses.
Jim,
I'll allow you the latitude to make that inference, but it was not my intent to suggest that RGD has had any clunkers. My intent was to suggest that laurels are to be worn on the head, not sat upon. Neither RGD nor any other design firm is owed an automatic contract, based upon prior successes.
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Tom Coughlin has won a few super bowls, but his Giants are currently in sad shape. Does he get his pick of the next coaching opening? Not if it's the most important and successful owner in the game.
Ron, do you really think Doak's courses are in 'sad shape?' Seems to me he keeps designing US or world top-100 courses.
Jim,
I'll allow you the latitude to make that inference, but it was not my intent to suggest that RGD has had any clunkers. My intent was to suggest that laurels are to be worn on the head, not sat upon. Neither RGD nor any other design firm is owed an automatic contract, based upon prior successes.
Ron, your analogy to Coughlin made precisely the suggestion that Tom has had a bunch of recent clunkers.
Prior success is almost all Keiser or just about anyone can really go on. As Don Mahaffey points out, without maybe Bill Coore advising him, he's not really capable of choosing based on the plans' merits.
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I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the winning architect winds up adopting concepts raised by the unsuccessful "bidders". This process is no sham; its Keiser's way of getting a lot of input from very talented people.
Did Keiser pay these very talented people for their input, that he will put into the ground? If not, that's pretty close to sham territory IMO.
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If your familiar with one's work, which Keiser would be for at least 2 out of 3 of these, how easy would it be to tell who submitted based on their style? I can tell immediately whose fingerprints are over the work - whether it be design work, writing style etc. Do archies have a specific style for their routings that are easily identified?
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Prior success is almost all Keiser or just about anyone can really go on. As Don Mahaffey points out, without maybe Bill Coore advising him, he's not really capable of choosing based on the plans' merits.
I don't think I can agree with the above. I hardly think a fellow as successful and educated as Mr. Keiser is not capable of choosing based on solid understanding of any plans as proposed by any competent architect submitting said comprehensive plans. MK has been through this process extensively for like two decades. The passion and long time involvement probably makes him as qualified as most any construction superintendent of any of the big construction companies, with the sensibilities of learned input by the great architects he has had over the years as to what works in what land situation, and what doesn't. And, he undoubtedly has learned about what doesn't work in certain land use and design upon certain ground circumstances by seeing a few holes or construction/design efforts not turn out as conceived. Everything is a learning process, and this fellow has been through it many times now.
But, i do agree with what Don and a few are suggesting that the practice of this 'blind walk-about" of the three archies routings is a bit if PT Barnum and could turn into a bit of free riding off the other architects submitting ideas by the winning architect.
November 15 is a week before the deer gun season. But it is Adams County and I would probably still be wearing orange and a strobe light along that particular walk. They got outlaws in them thar woods. ::) :o ;D
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As an earlier post said, laurels should be worn on the head, not sat upon. What is wrong with a little competition? Is that not the core of free market capitalism? When did competition become a bad thing?
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As an earlier post said, laurels should be worn on the head, not sat upon. What is wrong with a little competition? Is that not the core of free market capitalism? When did competition become a bad thing?
When the person running the competition steals the work/ideas of the competitors, without paying for them.
I don't know that's the case here. But several people here, including some industry professionals, expect to see some of the losers' work show up in the final product.
So again, my question is if MK is paying them for their ideas?
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As an earlier post said, laurels should be worn on the head, not sat upon. What is wrong with a little competition? Is that not the core of free market capitalism? When did competition become a bad thing?
When the person running the competition steals the work/ideas of the competitors, without paying for them.
I don't know that's the case here. But several people here, including some industry professionals, expect to see some of the losers' work show up in the final product.
So again, my question is if MK is paying them for their ideas?
Hopefully these architects have language in their contracts that entitles them to some sort of royalty. If not, then that's unfortunate. I suggest you contact Keiser and voice your concern.
Actually, an interesting concept is what part of a golf course design is entitled to copyright protection? Certainly, a particular architect's overall design is protected by copyright. But an individual design feature may not necessarily be subject to copyright. I remember my copyright class from law school and I don't think an idea is necessarily entitled to protection; it's only when that idea is expressed in some form of media that it is subject to protection (in other words, the architect's particular manner of expressing that idea/feature in his/her own design plan is copyrighted, but not the feature itself). It's a very amorphous concept. Perhaps we have an IP attorney here who could do a better job of articulating copyright law.
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This is interesting, seems with one simple request MK, has gone from a visionary who created great public golf courses and started with an unknown architect, to a PT Barnum like intellectual property thief. I guess you really do have to be careful out there.
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I don't want to continue with too much negativity, but since a couple of posters asked me to clarify my thinking:
Here on this website and in those golfing magazines/blogs interested in such things, the news of a second course and of the architect of choice would've been all the publicity that Sand Valley could ever use or need.
If you're Mr K and you start discussing architectural competitions and bake offs and blind taste tests you're hardly adding one iota of publicity to the project. Not one extra golfer is ever going to come to play the course because the design is the result of a 3-person competition.
So Mr K is not marketing the project. What he is doing instead is building/marketing himself, the Keiser brand -- "Look at what that man is doing now. He's a genius with the Midas touch, I tell you -- a genius who is saving golf!!".
Fine, build your personal brand. (Meh). But the cost of that seems to be expressing a level of disrespect and ingratitude to the very people most responsible for your success. Each of those architects is a proven veteran -- and even if you could pick what will turn out to be 'the best' course simply from the routing, asking them to come 'audition' strikes me as simply a matter of ego and self-importance.
An analogy: name me the last time you think Robert DeNiro or Denzel Washington or Meryl Streep has had to audition for a part. If Spielberg was directing and producing a new $200 million picture, do you think he'd turn to Denzel and say -- I know you've done great work in the past, but this role is, well, unique, and I'm not sure whether you or Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise would be best. So -- can you all come in an audition and show me what you've got!".
Anyway, enough of this.
Peter
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paranoia and pessimism are a-muck in this thread.
I doubt any of us believes that Mr. Keiser could go wrong with any of ten different firms. What he seeks, in my estimation, is what isn't apparent and what isn't there yet.
The honor of being among the final three should equal a tryout for courses 3 and 4.
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Seems to me those whose work Mr. Keiser was most impressed by and that he values, are getting the chance to impress him once again. As in most professions, unless you are Kobe Bryant, you simply can't rest on what you have done in the past to earn your living. The quality of each architects' prior work gives them an invite to the table, but their work product will determine who gets the nod. If I were looking at this from an architect's standpoint, sure I would be hurt it was not given just to me, but then I would be pretty focused to make sure I got the job. I think most of us have to prove our worth everyday and can't simply rest on what we have done in the past. I don't have a problem with it at all. In the end I think a great course(s) will be built.
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Brian: I am not an IP attorney but the old memory bank remember Tour 18 was sued 20 years ago. http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/sep/11/golf-verdict-gets-tour-18-off-the-hook-lighthouse/ (http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/sep/11/golf-verdict-gets-tour-18-off-the-hook-lighthouse/)
They could keep the holes but could not make exact copies or use trademarked logos and such.
There is a NLE 9 hole par 3 course like this on the old Sexton Dump on Grand Ave. in Bensonville. That course was awful.
How does this pertain to Sand Valley? I have no idea.
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Peter:
Has Mike Keiser done anything so far to make you think he is interested in anything other than creating the best course(s) possible?
I am simply amazed that this man, who has done so much to elevate golf (and public golf in particular) in America doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from everyone on this board.
I wonder, if you invested millions in a golf course, would you just hire an architect without seeing what his vision is for your property first?
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I have been involved in these competitions.
First, some pay a nominal fee to cover expenses, while others pay nothing, figuring most architects will take the chance on a prize commission.
Second, I have seen entries stamped with all sorts of copyrights, etc., in an effort to keep the owner and/or other architects from using any ideas contained in their plan. When I submit such an entry, I simply tell the owner that win or lose, use what you want. Not sure if anyone ever signs a contract for competition (other than the Oly course, which had one) but I believe the good relationship and class gesture helps you somewhere down the line. For that matter, I would bet many holes out there will be found and similar by different architects.
Lastly, while this did get some press, I have no doubt Mr. K basically is looking for some inspired vision. This is his first non-ocean course. He may feel he needs all the inspiration he can get, and hopes that he is spurring good architects to greater things.
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Last post on this for me:
Jeff - thanks. I know it's 'the way of the world'. I happen to think it sucks, for reasons I've already mentioned. But I also know that professionals just learn to deal with it.
Kevin - yes, Mr K has had a hand in creating some wonderful courses. I appreciate that. But correct me if I'm wrong: he has previously (and very succesfully) developed Pacific and Dunes and Trails and OM and the Cabot courses etc by simply choosing an architect and then having input into the process. This time (for the only time) he's using the bake off method - a competition, involving not newbies or up-and-comers but seasoned and acclaimed professionals who have already served him admirably in the past.
See my answer to Jeff for how I feel about that. You and Ron and others are obviously free to disagree. And Ron - if you are going to use alliteration to maxium effect you should try to pick words that actually make sense - there is nothing paranoid nor pessimistic in anything I wrote; you could have used "a pesky and pernicious palavar of personal pique" instead.
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Jeff,
I don't think Mk is looking for inspired vision; not for a second.
He has already built the "magic kingdom" of golf at Bandon and he is trying to build something like that in the Midwest.
Sand Valley feels planned out, like there is a perfect blueprint in place. That, to most in business probably feels right, to me, I want some improvisation.
I don't think Bandon was a perfectly planned golf resort. I think there was some "on the fly" decision making.
With Sand Valley, MK is showing us what a perfectly planned out golf resort is supposed to be.
If you are given two cups of coffee and one is Starbucks and one is McDonalds, do you think everyone given the taste test will get it right?
Sand Valley will be great, we've all already decided it will be great, and we can't be wrong.
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Don,
That's a pretty jaded view even by our standards 8). Given the quality of the turf most of us play on, unless they royally cock it up it will be a big win. Not sure what you're looking for in terms of risk-taking. Yes, it'd be nice if guys like Nuzzo and DeVries got a crack at it, but I wouldn't rule that out for course 3, 4 or 5. There's plenty of room in them thar hills, and he's got investors to appease.
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JUD,
When Don says :"Sand Hollow will be great, we've all already decided it will be great, and we can't be wrong. " I don't see that as a jaded view at all. It's just the nature of this site and the business. I think Peter has this exercise pegged though. I do feel for MK in that I would assume he has developed good relationships with several of the guys who have worked with him in the past and it has to be delicate. But anyway, I like DM statement above....it sums up the way most of us and especially the less attuned golfer, developer etc have viewed the entire business when it comes to the signatures and especially someone like DR...I have seen bad DR courses...JMO
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If we were rolling back the clock 20 years in the golf development life of Mr Keiser, and he were just contemplating his grand opus based on his passion for golf, I could buy into the idea that he was going o approach this 1300 acres with the idea of whatever it takes to find the best course possible on the land track, similar to the legend of Sand Hills with the constellation map of potential routing corridors and selecting the best of the best for the final 18 product. But, as noted above, Mr. Keiser has been there and done that with Bandon Resorts and his sponsorship of the already conceived course plan by the time he got into it at Cabot Links. He goes back to Lost Dunes and the relationship with all these architects is long standing. I have to believe that everything being put out for public consumption is the purposeful intention of a slow rolled out marketing plan to keep the interest level of the golf geek world high.
Wouldn't it be logical that the tract where the C&C course is to 'fit' would be in a quadrant that doesn't preclude the follow-on of more courses to have logical corridors to also be routed, and not that the first architects would get 'the best' possible land as first choice, like the Sand Hills GC was routed?
I had expressed some skepticism from the beginning about the long run viabilitiy of Adams County as strictly a proposition of whether it can sustain the intrepid golf geek market high dollar resort, also considering the short season. No question the land tract is special. But, once you cross that bridge of deciding it is a go, you have to sell it and flog it to give it the best opportunity for economic success. The commitment is made, and you MUST SELL it or perish, it seems to me. So, in my mind, I am not going to be surprised or put off by any and all clever means to keep the interest high, and the golf writers salivating to get a scoop on the latest developments of the project.
It remains my belief that Doak should have led off, due to key personnel of his crew having Wisconsin ties, and the lead status he has in the reputation of the course products at Bandon. Not a darn thing wrong with C&C, just a strategic choice in my view. If I were a marketing director, I just think I could generate more interest as a back story with a Doak course leading off. And, I fully understand that Crenshaw's name brings a lot to the picture where Doak doesn't have the world famous golfer as partner for that aspect of name recognition.
Hell, it I were driving this bus, and I were Doak, for this project, I'd be schmoozing Steve Stricker to be a player consultant for this project and ask Keiser to pay Stricker off with the promise of all the hunting rights he cares to exercise on this prime hunting territory in Adams County. ;D
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Don,
That's a pretty jaded view even by our standards 8).
I agree with Mike Young that it doesn't seem jaded by Don is the new store at the mall.
If you discover that you are content, can you continue being so?
You cannot repeat the spontaneity of Oregon. There is no way to replicate the minor and major actors, the level of experience nor the impromptu changes in direction.
Sand Valley has to be more organized in its execution, given the work done in Oregon, Tasmania and Canada.
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If we were rolling back the clock 20 years in the golf development life of Mr Keiser, and he were just contemplating his grand opus based on his passion for golf, I could buy into the idea that he was going o approach this 1300 acres with the idea of whatever it takes to find the best course possible on the land track, similar to the legend of Sand Hills with the constellation map of potential routing corridors and selecting the best of the best for the final 18 product. But, as noted above, Mr. Keiser has been there and done that with Bandon Resorts and his sponsorship of the already conceived course plan by the time he got into it at Cabot Links. He goes back to Lost Dunes and the relationship with all these architects is long standing. I have to believe that everything being put out for public consumption is the purposeful intention of a slow rolled out marketing plan to keep the interest level of the golf geek world high.
Wouldn't it be logical that the tract where the C&C course is to 'fit' would be in a quadrant that doesn't preclude the follow-on of more courses to have logical corridors to also be routed, and not that the first architects would get 'the best' possible land as first choice, like the Sand Hills GC was routed?
I had expressed some skepticism from the beginning about the long run viabilitiy of Adams County as strictly a proposition of whether it can sustain the intrepid golf geek market high dollar resort, also considering the short season. No question the land tract is special. But, once you cross that bridge of deciding it is a go, you have to sell it and flog it to give it the best opportunity for economic success. The commitment is made, and you MUST SELL it or perish, it seems to me. So, in my mind, I am not going to be surprised or put off by any and all clever means to keep the interest high, and the golf writers salivating to get a scoop on the latest developments of the project.
It remains my belief that Doak should have led off, due to key personnel of his crew having Wisconsin ties, and the lead status he has in the reputation of the course products at Bandon. Not a darn thing wrong with C&C, just a strategic choice in my view. If I were a marketing director, I just think I could generate more interest as a back story with a Doak course leading off. And, I fully understand that Crenshaw's name brings a lot to the picture where Doak doesn't have the world famous golfer as partner for that aspect of name recognition.
Hell, it I were driving this bus, and I were Doak, for this project, I'd be schmoozing Steve Stricker to be a player consultant for this project and ask Keiser to pay Stricker off with the promise of all the hunting rights he cares to exercise on this prime hunting territory in Adams County. ;D
I had expressed some skepticism from the beginning about the long run viabilitiy of Adams County as strictly a proposition of whether it can sustain the intrepid golf geek market high dollar resort, also considering the short season. No question the land tract is special. But, once you cross that bridge of deciding it is a go, you have to sell it and flog it to give it the best opportunity for economic success. The commitment is made, and you MUST SELL it or perish, it seems to me. So, in my mind, I am not going to be surprised or put off by any and all clever means to keep the interest high, and the golf writers salivating to get a scoop on the latest developments of the project.
Why is Adams County a bad location? It is in driving distance of 3 or 4 big cities? The land I am sure is terrific. Short season is a plus, probably 100 perfect days and x amount of okay days for golf. They are closed 5 or 6 months a year and aren't open losing money like private clubs do. I bet the green fees will be in the $150 range. With people now a days playing golf less times a year, there will be a small portion of people leaving there clubs and prob making 2-3 visits to SV a year. I think he will put a dent into the America's Club too. Hopefully he will go with the new Bent variates and not go with Fescue for the fairways. I think this is his least risky venture of all, seems like a no brainer. It is hard to use words like Risky when you have those deep pockets.
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Ben, I'm curious why you prefer Bent grass over fescue fairways? The few times I've played fescue, I would say it is far superior as a playing surface. If Sand Valley can handle fescue, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be used. Why do you disagree?
As a soon to be resident of Minnesota, I can't wait for Sand Valley to open. It will be much easier to get their than to make the trip to Bandon or Cape Breton (not to say that I don't want to see those places).
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Ben, I'm curious why you prefer Bent grass over fescue fairways? The few times I've played fescue, I would say it is far superior as a playing surface. If Sand Valley can handle fescue, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be used. Why do you disagree?
As a soon to be resident of Minnesota, I can't wait for Sand Valley to open. It will be much easier to get their than to make the trip to Bandon or Cape Breton (not to say that I don't want to see those places).
Brian,
I believe MK said that there would be carts at SV. Cart traffic kills fescue. Have you played any of the new Bents on Sand based fairways? We talk about rolling the ball back, does 60 yards of roll vs 40 yards of roll matter, when you don't have to worry about losing your fairways? Also Poa creeps in Fescue when cart traffic picks up.
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Ben, I'm curious why you prefer Bent grass over fescue fairways? The few times I've played fescue, I would say it is far superior as a playing surface. If Sand Valley can handle fescue, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be used. Why do you disagree?
As a soon to be resident of Minnesota, I can't wait for Sand Valley to open. It will be much easier to get their than to make the trip to Bandon or Cape Breton (not to say that I don't want to see those places).
Brian,
I believe MK said that there would be carts at SV. Cart traffic kills fescue. Have you played any of the new Bents on Sand based fairways? We talk about rolling the ball back, does 60 yards of roll vs 40 yards of roll matter, when you don't have to worry about losing your fairways? Also Poa creeps in Fescue when cart traffic picks up.
I wasn't aware that Sand Valley would have carts, but to be honest I haven't read mucb abbout the project. Are there any examples of courses that effectively manage cart traffic and fescue? I suppose private clubs can do it because they tend to have less play than resort courses (Kingsley comes to mind). Regardless, it's not my course or my decision, so I'll leave it up to Mr. Keiser and his team; same with his choice of architect (s) for his course (s).
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Guys:
See post #57 of this thread; Keiser has indicated it will be fescue, which I then assume means no or limited cart traffic and thus a healthy caddie program.
Ben -- the traffic for Sand Valley will have to be nearly entirely out-of-town day-trippers/overnighters; Adams County remains one of the poorest counties in Wisconsin, and unlike Erin Hills (located in and near a pretty prosperous section of Wisconsin), $150 for a round of golf is a TON of money for most locals. You make a good point about the constrained nature of the season, which may even help w/ expenses, and we'll see if Sand Valley can take away market share from the likes of the Kohler courses, Erin Hills, even nearby Lake Arrowhead and the Lawsonia courses. But I don't see the market for golf growing in Wisconsin; it may be shifting, among the high-end courses themselves and from low-end courses to high-end courses. Bjt the overall economy in Wisconsin is still puttering along, and SValley is going to require a lot of traffic from the Twin Cities and Chicago to maintain itself. I think a bit of skepticism of this project as a business model -- not as a worthy site for some really good architecture -- is still warranted.
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Phil,
It may take a while to be fully developed, but aside from the lack of lake views (aren't there some river views?), if this project is managed with some semblance of fiscal responsibility I don't see how it won't eventually be a big success with 3 or more courses. Thousands (tens of thousands?) of guys and gals from Chicago, Milwaukee and the Twin Cities have been to Bandon and GB&I and have experienced what playing the game on sand is like and will be chomping at the bit for a similar public venue within driving range and without a big ticket plane fare, a full day of travel each way, a passport, jetlag (and 35 mph winds) involved. All they have to do is deliver the goods in terms of course quality (and ratings and PR) and amenities IMO. I can even imagine some of the locals ponying up once a year for a special occasion (birthday, bachelor party etc.). And this doesn't even include the traveling bedpost-notcher crowd if they end up with a couple of top 50 courses, which doesn't seem like a huge stretch given MK's track record and the early reports of the quality of the land. The price point may in fact end up looking very attractive relative to the American Club and Erin Hills depending on one's predilections. Hell, there's hundreds of guys right here who are checking plane fares to the 2017 Midwest Mashie as we speak... 8)
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Jeff,
I don't think Mk is looking for inspired vision; not for a second.
He has already built the "magic kingdom" of golf at Bandon and he is trying to build something like that in the Midwest.
Sand Valley feels planned out, like there is a perfect blueprint in place. That, to most in business probably feels right, to me, I want some improvisation.
I don't think Bandon was a perfectly planned golf resort. I think there was some "on the fly" decision making.
With Sand Valley, MK is showing us what a perfectly planned out golf resort is supposed to be.
If you are given two cups of coffee and one is Starbucks and one is McDonalds, do you think everyone given the taste test will get it right?
Sand Valley will be great, we've all already decided it will be great, and we can't be wrong.
Don,
We aren't so far apart. Yes, I believe MK has a better handle on planning big projects now. I also happen to think:
1. He is slightly worried that no ocean will be a hindrance. A mind blowing concept might be, in his mind, necessary to distinguish this from his oceanfront properties.
2. He knows past success doesn't guarantee future success.
3. He is just idealistic enough to hope beyond hope that he sees something totally different to blow him away. I would bet you and I (and every other architect has that balance of learned practicality vs. still some wonder at the possibility of something new, as in your last OP!)
While I am not really putting my thinking hat on, I wonder just how different the ideas might be. Obviously, the model is PV up there. Just how different will each of these guys propose on theme?
Maybe one will propose all double greens or something.....how about one envisioning how Desmond Muirhead (or other equally unlikely candidate for the work) would have done PV, sort of a fantasy vision course? Maybe putt-putt?
Like you, I think it may be part a fishing expedition, but I do think he holds out 1% hope for something really great and different....and at least better than the two ideas I threw out above, LOL>
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Guys:
See post #57 of this thread; Keiser has indicated it will be fescue, which I then assume means no or limited cart traffic and thus a healthy caddie program.
Ben -- the traffic for Sand Valley will have to be nearly entirely out-of-town day-trippers/overnighters; Adams County remains one of the poorest counties in Wisconsin, and unlike Erin Hills (located in and near a pretty prosperous section of Wisconsin), $150 for a round of golf is a TON of money for most locals. You make a good point about the constrained nature of the season, which may even help w/ expenses, and we'll see if Sand Valley can take away market share from the likes of the Kohler courses, Erin Hills, even nearby Lake Arrowhead and the Lawsonia courses. But I don't see the market for golf growing in Wisconsin; it may be shifting, among the high-end courses themselves and from low-end courses to high-end courses. Bjt the overall economy in Wisconsin is still puttering along, and SValley is going to require a lot of traffic from the Twin Cities and Chicago to maintain itself. I think a bit of skepticism of this project as a business model -- not as a worthy site for some really good architecture -- is still warranted.
Phil,
Benton Harbor in Michigan is a very depressed area. JN track is doing okay i think. Locals aren't going to be playing the course, maybe May/oct. Forrest Dunes is in the middle of no-where. SV has a 3 big cities to draw from. The only stupid thing that MK is doing is going with fescue. You can have a walking only track if it's located next to an Ocean/great lake, top 100, or is hosting a major. He is going to help Lawsonia get spill over. People now don't have to mortgage their house to play Kohler. He can always have a cart fee for riders. The new bent grasses require 30% less water. GCA guys aren't the golf course market. I would love to sit and ask Bandon resort players if they can tell me difference between strategic and penal architecture. The advantage you have in Wisconsin over Michigan is you have great tracks that are routed for walking. I would bet 95% of Forrest Dunes play is carts. The difference is MK has deep pockets and great reputation. If left to the golfers choice at SV, 70% riding, 30% walking would be my guess for a slam dunk, no worries success.
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I can't remember if we have talked about the other newly renovated golf course in the area, Sentry World. Jay Blasi has done a collaboration with his former full time employer, RTJjr to get the new SW open next spring. Bruce Charlton, head associate with RTJjf and with the original project continues to refer to it as "the ANGC of the Northland". Welll, that is a mighty stretch. But I wouldn't discount SW as a big factor in the competitive market. Or, it might be on many weekender's dance card for one of multiple rounds on the lang weekend golf trip to the area. Local Wisconsin resident Jay Blasi of Chambers Bay experience with RTJjr will draw cheesehead homer interest, IMO. SW had a soft opening event in Sept with a big dollar charity outting, and a raters day. Anyone know how that turned out?
I'm sure that on turf selection, C&C top turf wizards and consultants Peterson and Hegland will have big input on that decision. They will get it right, however it goes. Hegland has revitalized SHGC FW and foregreens and surrounds to a huge extent. Why wouldn't they tap Hegland, a Wisconsin native for some wise counsel, given their close working relationship on projects at SHGC?
But, if I know the Wisconsin golfer market at all, I am skeptical that at a price point north of 150 dollar rounds, with a lower competitive price out of SW, and much lower at Lake Arrowhead, and Lawsonia, Northern Bay and the other likely day trip courses from Madison, Miilwaukee and GB, not to mention Stevens Point and Wausau, Sand Valley is going to have to come up with something of a come-on regional rate, IMO.
One comparable that may define the tastes of the Wisconsin golfer who likes to day trip, is that the percentage of play of these sort of players is to pick Lawsonia Woodlands more often as a choice if playing only one of the courses, than the Langford classic. They are more likely to say, let's go play "the ANGC of the Northland" for 100 a round, than the Pine Valley of the north, at greater price than that. Or they will play it one and done and go to the more economic value on successive golf day trips.
Just my opinion, of course.
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Really, the success of Sand Valley won't be on how many people go and see it. Success will depend on how many people see it and then choose to go back.
I imagine they will offer local residents a price break while charging everyone else a premium. I believe they do this at Bandon, correct?
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Really, the success of Sand Valley won't be on how many people go and see it. Success will depend on how many people see it and then choose to go back.
I imagine they will offer local residents a price break while charging everyone else a premium. I believe they do this at Bandon, correct?
Jim:
The comparison to Bandon is somewhat apt -- the Coos Bay economy wasn't exactly booming when Keiser came along, and he's now building courses on land no longer needed for timber/paper mill purposes because that industry has gone south. RJ makes a very good point above about Sentry World -- which, before Kohler came along, really was the destination course in Wisconsin; I've heard very good things about the renovation work there, which would make for even more competition for SValley.
Keiser wanted to re-create the British links experience for American golfers without having to cross the Atlantic; he's done pretty well in that regard at Bandon. Now he wants to re-create Pine Valley, or make a larger, public model of his beloved Dunes Club in Michigan. That's a pretty discerning golf market to go after -- as I've said, disproportionately represented here on GCA, and maybe it's out there. But, he's chosen a market (Wisconsin) already saturated with a lot of high-end golfing options.
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Really, the success of Sand Valley won't be on how many people go and see it. Success will depend on how many people see it and then choose to go back.
I imagine they will offer local residents a price break while charging everyone else a premium. I believe they do this at Bandon, correct?
Jim:
The comparison to Bandon is somewhat apt -- the Coos Bay economy wasn't exactly booming when Keiser came along, and he's now building courses on land no longer needed for timber/paper mill purposes because that industry has gone south. RJ makes a very good point above about Sentry World -- which, before Kohler came along, really was the destination course in Wisconsin; I've heard very good things about the renovation work there, which would make for even more competition for SValley.
Keiser wanted to re-create the British links experience for American golfers without having to cross the Atlantic; he's done pretty well in that regard at Bandon. Now he wants to re-create Pine Valley, or make a larger, public model of his beloved Dunes Club in Michigan. That's a pretty discerning golf market to go after -- as I've said, disproportionately represented here on GCA, and maybe it's out there. But, he's chosen a market (Wisconsin) already saturated with a lot of high-end golfing options.
Phil,
Don't you think 3-5 courses at SV will be the Pinehurst of the Midwest? My thinking is (having not played them) that Erin Hills and Whistling straights are going to appeal more to the under 50 crowd for repeat play. I imagine SV will be more user friendly for the average retail golfer 50-65 years old. At a price point of $100-150(weekends) he is going to put a dent in Kholer repeat play for above age group imo just looking at it from afar. WS is an expensive experience that many will do once, why do it over when you can go to outstanding courses for less that would be much more playable? Expecting people to walk (when its not hosting a major or ocean side course) is not smart. MK has morning drive PR all the time, does average Chicagoian or twin cities core golfer know about Sentry World? Re creating PV for the public is genius, i doubt they are going for as demanding 2nd shots. lots of width, visuals, and great maint. is what the avg golf wants imo. Limited carts and fescue is the biggest risk he has, but he has very deep pockets and will be able to be successful. Does PV have fescue fairways?
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There’s a lot of talk about how to make SV successful which incudes a wide range of analysis as to why Bandon is successful.
In my opinion one of the most important, and rarely discussed, reasons why Bandon is successful is the general equality between the four courses. This idea may sound a bit silly but try and stay with me here. Each course at Bandon has established itself as a spectacular stand-alone course. Yes, in the ratings system Pacific Dunes tends to shine more brightly then its brothers, but it doesn’t take the wonder out of the other courses. People go to Bandon to play all four courses not just Pacific Dunes. This mentality would not be possible if Bandon or Sand Valley hosted a major or even a tour event. Just about every public major venue provides the example of how this is true. People go to Pinehurst to play #2, and just so happen to play a few other courses. People go to Kohler to play Straights and just end up playing the other courses. People flock to Kiawah to play the ocean course, and might just find themselves on the other courses. When a single course hosts a major all other courses on the property get overshadowed. Everyone who visits comes for to tackle one specific course. People don’t get to make up their minds about which course is best, because like sheep they cant find themselves disagreeing with the flawed rating system in place. When one course gets hyped up as a Major venue or even tournament host the other courses simply drop in ranking and in respect.
This is not an issue at Bandon. Once again, people visit Bandon to play all four, not just one or the other. When all the courses on property are given some sense of equal respect (which cannot happen with a major) golfers will flock to the destination of high-density quality courses (Bandon being the perfect example). If Keiser can repeat this formula in Sand Valley he will find success regardless of what kind of grass the courses have or wither carts are available or not.
Although I wasn’t able to articulate the concept to its full form, I believe it to be entirely accurate even if most golfers are unaware of the impact on their decisions.
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There’s a lot of talk about how to make SV successful which incudes a wide range of analysis as to why Bandon is successful.
In my opinion one of the most important, and rarely discussed, reasons why Bandon is successful is the general equality between the four courses. This idea may sound a bit silly but try and stay with me here. Each course at Bandon has established itself as a spectacular stand-alone course. Yes, in the ratings system Pacific Dunes tends to shine more brightly then its brothers, but it doesn’t take the wonder out of the other courses. People go to Bandon to play all four courses not just Pacific Dunes. This mentality would not be possible if Bandon or Sand Valley hosted a major or even a tour event. Just about every public major venue provides the example of how this is true. People go to Pinehurst to play #2, and just so happen to play a few other courses. People go to Kohler to play Straights and just end up playing the other courses. People flock to Hilton Head to play Kiawah, and might just find themselves on the other courses. When a single course hosts a major all other courses on the property get overshadowed. Everyone who visits comes for to tackle one specific course. People don’t get to make up their minds about which course is best, because like sheep they cant find themselves disagreeing with the flawed rating system in place. When one course gets hyped up as a Major venue or even tournament host the other courses simply drop in ranking and in respect.
This is not an issue at Bandon. Once again, people visit Bandon to play all four, not just one or the other. When all the courses on property are given some sense of equal respect (which cannot happen with a major) golfers will flock to the destination of high-density quality courses (Bandon being the perfect example). If Keiser can repeat this formula in Sand Valley he will find success regardless of what kind of grass the courses have or wither carts are available or not.
Although I wasn’t able to articulate the concept to its full form, I believe it to be entirely accurate even if most golfers are unaware of the impact on their decisions.
''Expecting people to walk (when its not hosting a major or ocean side course) is not smart.'' this is what I said. Do you honestly think the Bandon courses would be as highly reguarded if they were NOT on the Ocean? Notice what I had in parentheses. Arcadia bluffs and I believe the Kohler courses are very profitable. Hence I said Ocean, great lakes, or courses that host majors. Which SV isn't any of the 3. What other top courses in Cali are there besides Pebble that people flock to go to on the West coast? If you don't think people play Mid Pines and Pine Needles in addition to #2 and then I bet a good portion return to Pinehurst with PN and MP top on their list. The river course at Kholer hosted 2 Woman's Opens. All models are profitable. Grass is very important, you might want to look at courses that went under with FESCUE grass. Maint is a very important ingredient in being successful. You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2? My only hope is SV is $100-150 and I will probably visit it once a year from Michigan. The question is why would you limit cart play, most people ride and the question is the land/course great enough for people who normally ride to walk? I also never said Bandon needed a Major, it has an Ocean (people like Water).
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On a west coast trip with my wife played Pacific Dunes. Did not play the others. There are some that don't go to Bandon to play all four courses. Price is a factor as well as the walking factor.
Walking only severely limits the number of seniors and those with disabilities that will play. Yes, the disabled can get a cart, but a cart fee, naturally is required, as well as a caddy, significantly raising the rate. If the financials work without that demographic so be it, but it does limit, at least somewhat, revenue.
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There’s a lot of talk about how to make SV successful which incudes a wide range of analysis as to why Bandon is successful.
In my opinion one of the most important, and rarely discussed, reasons why Bandon is successful is the general equality between the four courses. This idea may sound a bit silly but try and stay with me here. Each course at Bandon has established itself as a spectacular stand-alone course. Yes, in the ratings system Pacific Dunes tends to shine more brightly then its brothers, but it doesn’t take the wonder out of the other courses. People go to Bandon to play all four courses not just Pacific Dunes. This mentality would not be possible if Bandon or Sand Valley hosted a major or even a tour event. Just about every public major venue provides the example of how this is true. People go to Pinehurst to play #2, and just so happen to play a few other courses. People go to Kohler to play Straights and just end up playing the other courses. People flock to Hilton Head to play Kiawah, and might just find themselves on the other courses. When a single course hosts a major all other courses on the property get overshadowed. Everyone who visits comes for to tackle one specific course. People don’t get to make up their minds about which course is best, because like sheep they cant find themselves disagreeing with the flawed rating system in place. When one course gets hyped up as a Major venue or even tournament host the other courses simply drop in ranking and in respect.
This is not an issue at Bandon. Once again, people visit Bandon to play all four, not just one or the other. When all the courses on property are given some sense of equal respect (which cannot happen with a major) golfers will flock to the destination of high-density quality courses (Bandon being the perfect example). If Keiser can repeat this formula in Sand Valley he will find success regardless of what kind of grass the courses have or wither carts are available or not.
Although I wasn’t able to articulate the concept to its full form, I believe it to be entirely accurate even if most golfers are unaware of the impact on their decisions.
''Expecting people to walk (when its not hosting a major or ocean side course) is not smart.'' this is what I said. Do you honestly think the Bandon courses would be as highly reguarded if they were NOT on the Ocean? Notice what I had in parentheses. Arcadia bluffs and I believe the Kohler courses are very profitable. Hence I said Ocean, great lakes, or courses that host majors. Which SV isn't any of the 3. What other top courses in Cali are there besides Pebble that people flock to go to on the West coast? If you don't think people play Mid Pines and Pine Needles in addition to #2 and then I bet a good portion return to Pinehurst with PN and MP top on their list. The river course at Kholer hosted 2 Woman's Opens. All models are profitable. Grass is very important, you might want to look at courses that went under with FESCUE grass. Maint is a very important ingredient in being successful. You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2? My only hope is SV is $100-150 and I will probably visit it once a year from Michigan. The question is why would you limit cart play, most people ride and the question is the land/course great enough for people who normally ride to walk? I also never said Bandon needed a Major, it has an Ocean (people like Water).
Im not entirely sure where i singled you out and wrote that everything you have said has been wrong. It was a general thought that included a few concepts from the entire thread and was in no way directed at you specifically. Im not going to argue the point of wether people like to view the ocean (or lakes) while they golf. Has anyone ever argued against this? Many of your points (which once again i wasnt really arguing with) i agree with. So lets just leave it at that.
My main goal was to discuss a reason (in my mind a rather large one) behind Bandons success that isnt really talked about. And I hope that MK can apply those same concepts to SV.
I also..... hope its priced in the 100-150 range to start off. As the reputation grows the price should be increased incrementally (again just like bandon). Or they can just price it at $900 a round and market it as the most expensive public course in the world (or that i can think of). But really all the courses should be priced the same as to not direct favor to one or the other.
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You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2?
I would be stunned if Dormie is in the average guy's top ten after #2, if that's what you intimated. I would guess that a bunch of the post golden-age courses (Mid-South, Little River Farm, Tobacco Road, Talamore, Pinewild, Seven Lakes, et al) that are included in packages would rate higher. Next would come Southern Pines (for the cost) then Pine Needles and Mid Pines (because they heard that they're Ross courses but not as $$$ as The Deuce) and finally the courses at the resort that don't rhyme with Moo.
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K Rafkin,
It's all good, I am sorry for my tone. I hope the SV project is very successful which will stimulate more projects. I think over $150 a round and walking restrictions will damper his momentum, but what do I know ;D ;D ;D
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You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2?
I would be stunned if Dormie is in the average guy's top ten after #2, if that's what you intimated. I would guess that a bunch of the post golden-age courses (Mid-South, Little River Farm, Tobacco Road, Talamore, Pinewild, Seven Lakes, et al) that are included in packages would rate higher. Next would come Southern Pines (for the cost) then Pine Needles and Mid Pines (because they heard that they're Ross courses but not as $$$ as The Deuce) and finally the courses at the resort that don't rhyme with Moo.
Ron,
I am playing Dormie in two weeks. Many people can't stop talking about it. Talamore over Dormie? I'd rather play the Southern Pines 4 hole course than Talamore. Mid Pines has been in the mags with renovation but is expensive.
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BC,
I'm not saying what you or I would rather play. If you talk about "Average Joe," he's not playing Dormie. We've met kids from Canada on winter break down there and they haven't a clue about Dormie. If it's not part of a CVB package, it's not on the itinerary of the Average Joe.
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BC,
I'm not saying what you or I would rather play. If you talk about "Average Joe," he's not playing Dormie. We've met kids from Canada on winter break down there and they haven't a clue about Dormie. If it's not part of a CVB package, it's not on the itinerary of the Average Joe.
On my lone trip to Pinehurst, I was invited with a group of "Average Joe" golfers, who probably play very occasionally but who make an annual trip to Pinehurst. I suggested Dormie as a possible course to play. The guys I was with had never heard of Dormie. Instead they wanted to play the Nicklaus and Palmer courses that they knew from prior trips. It was their trip, so who was I to complain. But architecture was the last thing on their minds.
If these guys ever go to Sand Valley, it will be because there are multiple courses at decent prices, good food and cold beers. A decent looking cart girl or two wouldn't hurt either.
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With all due respect to the many excellent candidates, I dearly hope Sir Nuzzo gets one of the Sand Valley commissions before all is said and done.
+1 and or Rob Collins
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If these guys ever go to Sand Valley, it will be because there are multiple courses at decent prices, good food and cold beers. A decent looking cart girl or two wouldn't hurt either.
I think the beer will be cold; Wisconsin's pretty good at that. But the pricing better be competitive, and the food darn good; there is not an interesting thing to do or see within a 50-mile radius of that place.
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I do think some skepticism is still warranted, not just for Sand Valley but for its potential effect on the Wisconsin golf landscape overall. Kohler, Erin Hills, Lawsonia, Sentry World, the courses around Wisconsin Dells, and now Sand Valley will all be places that rely heavily on intrepid out-of-towners traveling to play them. Depending on their price point and overall package, Sand Valley will inevitably end up competing in a certain bracket of that traveling-golfer market within the region. It's feasible that if the courses and accommodations are good enough, Sand Valley will increase traffic to the area overall and boost those other courses in the region. However, it's equally feasible that Sand Valley could siphon play away from other courses in its same bracket.
Sand Valley will clearly be geared toward traveling golfers with more "sophisticated" tastes - guys who care about playing architecturally notable courses and are willing to pay a hefty green fee at a walking-only resort. Up to this point, Wisconsin's most noteworthy public destinations for that crowd could easily be played on a single trip without ever venturing too far from the Milwaukee area. Now, here comes a resort that's a little further off the beaten path and that will offer, presumably, somewhere between 2 and 5 courses within the next 5-10 years. As a result, those taking the average weeklong Wisconsin golf trip may have to make a choice about which of the "big courses" to leave off their itinerary if they don't feel like scrambling wildly to play 8 or 10 courses in a week.
Maybe those golfers will skip a round or two at Kohler, it's probably no great tragedy. But it does seem to me that Sand Valley will make Wisconsin an unusual golf destination. Thinking of Erin Hills, Kohler, and Sand Valley, I wonder if there is another location in the US with three resorts that are:
* High-dollar
* Traveling-golfer reliant
* Walking-only (at least at each resort's most noteworthy course)
* Located in the same general geographic region but just far enough apart that travel between them is inconvenient
* Located in an area with generally little out-of-region tourism otherwise
It's certainly an unusual market if not a totally unique one, and I can see the possibility that another major resort geared toward a similar target audience will oversaturate it. It seems that there's an obvious chance these three competing destinations cannibalize business from each other. However, the bigger worry for me would be the little guy - does Lawsonia become a bit of an afterthought for the target market as the cheaper course with cart tracks all over the place and lacking fabulous onsite accommodations and stuck in the middle of nowhere?
I don't necessarily THINK that Sand Valley is going to be the tipping point that oversaturates the Wisconsin high-end traveling golf market, but it's at least a possibility right? My hope is that it will bring more attention to the region and more money to the little guys - not just Lawsonia but some of the other daily fee courses in Wisconsin that deserve a little more recognition. But I can also see the potential of those less expensive, less heralded courses becoming further marginalized by tourists who represent a smaller but crucial percentage of their overall business. It'll be interesting to follow.
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Jason, just for clarification on the 'inconvenient drive times', it is about the same drive time from EH to Kohler, or EH to Green Lake Lawsonia, or Green Lake to Sand Valley. Those drives are all in the time span of about one hour and fifteen minutes. If a rabid golfer was so motivated on a long summer day, I could see one playing early morning EH, mid aft, Lawsonia and twilight Sand Valley. ;)
Phil, I can't vouch for the quality, but there are a few interesting looking roadhouse restaurants within 10 minutes of SV in all directions from the course site. I fellow wouldn't go too wrong snapping up a vacation cottage up along the Pentwell Res., or one of the smallish lakes that dot the area, or just some 40 acre hunting land. But, if and until Keiser gets his F&B and lodging situation squared away, a guy won't starve up there. ;D
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RJ, there's no doubt that a rabid golfer COULD do that. If I still lived in Madison, I probably wouldn't hesitate to play 36 at Sand Valley on a day trip. But Sand Valley's business model will require and expect tourist play. As a tourist, I don't generally travel to a place so that I can drive all over hell while I'm there.
My only real point is that it comes down to a simple question of supply and demand. Is demand for high end resort golf in Wisconsin high enough to justify another high end destination course? Will demand increase simply through the construction of another must-see golf destination some 90 minutes from the others in the area? And if there isn't quite enough demand, then what happens?
Hopefully there's enough demand. I don't doubt that there is. I just wonder what happens if there isn't. It could be a really good thing - maybe Kohler and Erin Hills see a drop in play and subsequently drop their prices, which would be great for me. I'm just interested to see what happens.
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Jason, a couple of things strike me about your last comment.
Both Erin Hills and SV will have developers and principle backers behind their enterprise that have deep enough pockets to sustain marginally small numbers of paying golfers. Erin Hills will have the cache or world focus when all eyes turn on it for the US Open, that SV will never have. SV in that regard will have to be more of a cult following. One thing I am not sure of is that if I understand it correctly, thee are a number of founding "members" who ponied up $$$ just on Keiser's reputation to do something spectacular and the unique sand barrens nature of the property, in anticipation that something special would get done there. ERin Hills seems fully reliant on CCFAD model of intrepid golfers, just as the American Club courses rely on that traffic. But, SV will have members, and presumably some form of dues, and some system of parcelling out tee times on the semi private basis. If a membership yearly dues system covers basic maintenance costs, and green fees and other F&B and lodging cover operational expenses, maybe Keiser can afford to just let it break even. ;D ;)
This also raises questions in my mind, perhaps more suited for another thread; but is it possible to get enabling legislation for some version of what is used by donors in living land trusts for public land preservation, where after the developer and owner depart the scene a successor entity can operate within a not-for-profit basis if the ongoing activity is used for the public good (healthful recreation and promotion of fellowship) and whose yearly excess earnings are kept not for profit but designated for some charitable designation, health, welfare, education?
All these aging ultra wealthy golf Impresarios can't take it with them, but could bequeath it for a wider general public good, that could help preserve the game and lifestyle activity they love and have found pleasurable and beneficial in their lifetimes, rather than just leave it to generate more corporate profit that accrues all the benefits to a very small segment of society.
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This also raises questions in my mind, perhaps more suited for another thread; but is it possible to get enabling legislation for some version of what is used by donors in living land trusts for public land preservation, where after the developer and owner depart the scene a successor entity can operate within a not-for-profit basis if the ongoing activity is used for the public good (healthful recreation and promotion of fellowship) and whose yearly excess earnings are kept not for profit but designated for some charitable designation, health, welfare, education?
All these aging ultra wealthy golf Impresarios can't take it with them, but could bequeath it for a wider general public good, that could help preserve the game and lifestyle activity they love and have found pleasurable and beneficial in their lifetimes, rather than just leave it to generate more corporate profit that accrues all the benefits to a very small segment of society.
Interesting you mention this, as two good friends of mine work both in Wisconsin and nationally on land trust issues, and deal with these sorts of covenants all the time. I'll ask one of them; I don't know of any state laws that would disallow that, but am hardly an expert. I know of some similar arrangements here in the greater Madison area aimed at permanently preserving farmland that might otherwise get developed into another use.
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Jason,
Based on Bandon, the real worry IMO is that Erin Hills and Whistling Straits end up losing business, not Lawsonia. Most guys who go to the American Club have never even heard of Lawsonia and would get their Brooks Brothers tightey whitey's in a serious bunch over the whole middle class feel of the place. If Sand Valley ends up with 4 or 5 courses that are all highly rated, have better turf, competitive pricing, and quality lodging and food you can bet that many people won't feel the need to ever leave the property.
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Tom Doak:
"The masses would perceive it as substandard."
That depends on where you are! Can anyone here recall anyone coming back from Sand Hills or Bandon Dunes and complaining about the "substandard" turf? [I've only heard it once or twice, and it was from someone who was emphatic before they saw the course about fescue being the wrong choice.]
I think the fescue works better at Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes because they're isolated, and there's nothing else to compare them to. On the other hand, when High Pointe was practically across the street from The Bear, or Spanish Bay from Pebble, or Whistling Straits from Blackwolf Run, and when the green fees are high, the paying customer wants to know why they didn't use the "better" turf next door.
Fescue will work in heat [I've seen the Sand Hills when it's 100] or humidity [not many dry days in the U.K.], but not heat AND humidity. It's also not worth a crap unless the soil is truly sandy, and I'm not sure the soils at Whistling Straits were suitable. But, I still think they should mow it tighter and see. If it doesn't hold out, then overseed it with bent like everyone else wants them to.
RJ: One of the most brilliant decisions they made at Wild Horse was how to grass the place. They used the bluegrass fairway mix you discussed to address divot-healing concerns, but switched to fescue 30-40 yards in front of the greens, so you can play all the links shots around the greens which I talked about.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4902.5/wap2.html
This is copied from an old post (see above). It makes sense with having fescue 30-40 yards short of every green. I don't think there is too much High end retail, i don't know if there is room for a 3rd Walking only course (EH, WS) stand alone until the others get built. The 2nd course at SV will open 1-2 years after the 1st? If the green fees are low ($100) the first two years I think he will do well until the other courses get built. thoughts about walking only with 1 golf course at SV, when 2 others exist (EH,WS)? Are there enough walkers?
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Jud, you're probably right. I just think it'll be interesting to watch the Wisconsin destination golf market sort itself out once Sand Valley is opened.
Ben, I also think the walking-only nature of Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, and now Sand Valley will mean something within that market. I don't know if it's a boon to them or if it will lead to travelers skipping one because of tired legs. I do see a trend beginning to develop nationally in which high-end golf is becoming more synonymous with walking, and I think that makes sense as part of a business model. Part of the expectation of a "high-end" experience, regardless of industry, is that you're going to get something different and something more satisfying that won't necessarily appeal to everyone, but will appeal to the person with more "discerning" tastes. I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that high end customers will find the experience of playing golf in a special place to be far more satisfying when their legs have that perfectly tired and relaxed feeling at the end of the day, and when they've moved around the course at a pace that lets them take it all in, and when they haven't seen ruts from cart traffic or listened to squealing tires zipping around the course.
Most people won't cognizantly think "Wow, it sure was nice being on a course with no carts!" in the same way that after a dinner at a nice restaurant I don't generally think "Wow, that slow service sure was nice!" But I do think most people who sign up for such an experience will find themselves more relaxed and satisfied when they take a load off over dinner after a day of walking the course. And when you're selling an overall experience of golf, lodging, and dining, as opposed to just a quick trip around a course, there's science to back up that the food tastes better after you've burned the calories from walking all day, and the beds feel more comfortable and you sleep better when you go to bed truly fatigued. It's a great recipe for customers who leave with the feeling that they've had an overall experience that demands a return trip.
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Jason,
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. It is great that all the courses will be routed for walking. I just think the distinguished pallet will wait till the 2nd and 3rd course gets built. I'm curious the folks that walk WS, if they ride a buggy at the other tracks. If the price is right at SV the first couple of years, he will get the $50-$100 a round retail crowd until the 2nd and 3rd courses get built. Once he gets a 3rd course i see this being very very successful. MK is disproving that exclusivity is the only sell... ;)
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How long is the golf season again out their in WI? ;D
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This year? About four months -- or so it seemed.
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Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.
Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:
"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240)
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Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.
Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:
"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240)
I don't see this teaser meaning the Sand valley architect. Keiser has a number of golf course developments and it could be anything? My guess is the Streamsong joint venture?
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Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.
Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:
"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240)
Special "guests"?
as in plural?
hmmmm.......
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Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.
Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:
"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240)
Why would you follow a guy who uses Twitter this way?
The suspense is not killing me....
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Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.
Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:
"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240)
Why would you follow a guy who uses Twitter this way?
The suspense is not killing me....
He is self promoting. Is there another way to use twitter?
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And the 2nd course goes to... David McLay Kidd. On GC right now...
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Given the properties he's had, the results have been mixed.
There were other choices available.
One architect in particular who has consistently delivered premier product for whom it would've been virtually a home game.
or perhaps a talented, hungry architect/associate waiting for his first great property.
Superior routing?
Punishment for handing out a 0?
Better interview?
More time?
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David Kidd is
going to walk through the routing on Golf Channel at approx 7:35a central.
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Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.
Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:
"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240)
Why would you follow a guy who uses Twitter this way?
The suspense is not killing me....
He is self promoting. Is there another way to use twitter?
Seriously? He's promoting that he had a story of interest to break.
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And the 2nd course goes to... David McLay Kidd. On GC right now...
Wow that's really cool...I would say slightly out of the box. Maybe half a foot out. Perhaps his success at Gamble Sands played a part as well. Will be very interested to see how it turns out.
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The courses I've played designed by DMK, I thought, were really good to great. Sure, there will be some disappointment that Tom Doak didn't receive the commission as it is close to his home base and his portfolio is outstanding, but it's not exactly like MK hired Fazio or Nicklaus for a "signature" design.
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David Kidd is
going to walk through the routing on Golf Channel at approx 7:35a central.
Watched it. I'll never get those five minutes back.
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Very surprised that he got the gig over Mr Doak, strange decision considering the reviews over their respective works, and history of Doak with Keiser.
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Watched it. I'll never get those five minutes back.
[/quote]
No, they didn't get into much detail. But they had breaking news - Tiger was practicing his putting.
The things I learned from the 2 segments were:
1) Keiser visited Gamble Sands and loved it. That gave Kidd the chance.
2) Kidd's course will open in 2018, 1 year after Coore and Crenshaw's opens in 2017.
3) Kidd was able to pick the land he wanted (other than C&Cs). He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.
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No, they didn't get into much detail. But they had breaking news - Tiger was practicing his putting.
The things I learned from the 2 segments were:
1) Keiser visited Gamble Sands and loved it. That gave Kidd the chance.
2) Kidd's course will open in 2018, 1 year after Coore and Crenshaw's opens in 2017.
3) Kidd was able to pick the land he wanted (other than C&Cs). He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.
Ginella's accompanying article that captures most of the above:
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm)
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Exciting project irrespective of who gets the job for this course and following courses, another destination to add to our lists.
100 years from now, how will Mr Keiser be seen in terms of golf course architecture, what a pioneer he was in creating a new form of venue?
A welathy man with a passion for the game and as such created an array of canvasses for architects to show off their craft?
Or just a good business man with a winning model to create more money.
Combination of the above.
Either way thank you Mr Keiser for giving all on this site many monets of fun in both writing and playing your creations.
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Ginella's accompanying article that captures most of the above:
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm)
Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did. So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.
"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."
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The courses I've played designed by DMK, I thought, were really good to great. Sure, there will be some disappointment that Tom Doak didn't receive the commission as it is close to his home base and his portfolio is outstanding, but it's not exactly like MK hired Fazio or Nicklaus for a "signature" design.
Pat, totally agree with you. I didn't mean to say DMK was a bad choice, just a slightly unexpected one. I guess I had assumed the job would go to Doak or Hanse.
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Ginella's accompanying article that captures most of the above:
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm)
Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did. So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.
"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."
Josh Lesnik just might be the smartest and most honest guy I've ever known in the golf business, so I'll place a lot of confidence in that statement.
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I can't believe the talk about 3rd and 4th courses at this stage. I guess it is "the vision thing". ::)
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The courses I've played designed by DMK, I thought, were really good to great. Sure, there will be some disappointment that Tom Doak didn't receive the commission as it is close to his home base and his portfolio is outstanding, but it's not exactly like MK hired Fazio or Nicklaus for a "signature" design.
Pat, totally agree with you. I didn't mean to say DMK was a bad choice, just a slightly unexpected one. I guess I had assumed the job would go to Doak or Hanse.
Latter rather unlikely as he wasn't on the (publicly disclosed) shortlist
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... He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.
Will there be hole(s) crossing the ridge? Or, didn't they go into that much detail?
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RJ, there's no doubt that a rabid golfer COULD do that. If I still lived in Madison, I probably wouldn't hesitate to play 36 at Sand Valley on a day trip. But Sand Valley's business model will require and expect tourist play. As a tourist, I don't generally travel to a place so that I can drive all over hell while I'm there.
My only real point is that it comes down to a simple question of supply and demand. Is demand for high end resort golf in Wisconsin high enough to justify another high end destination course? Will demand increase simply through the construction of another must-see golf destination some 90 minutes from the others in the area? And if there isn't quite enough demand, then what happens?
Hopefully there's enough demand. I don't doubt that there is. I just wonder what happens if there isn't. It could be a really good thing - maybe Kohler and Erin Hills see a drop in play and subsequently drop their prices, which would be great for me. I'm just interested to see what happens.
Jason,
I don't know whether you have ever played golf in Scotland or Ireland, but there have long been many Americans who have been willing to "drive all over hell" to play quality golf courses.
Based on the distances Dick Daley describes, travel wouldn't seem to be a barrier. Certainly not for golf architecture junkies.
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... He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.
Will there be hole(s) crossing the ridge? Or, didn't they go into that much detail?
Kidd talked about getting to the other side of the ridge in a couple of spots. He said that was his biggest challenge in doing the routing. They had a routing map sitting on an easel. But they didn't focus in tight enough to show any detail.
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Saw this over on Twitter...
https://twitter.com/jcolton31/status/540303884527624192
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j341/deej696/Sand-Valley_zpsb32f2114.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/deej696/media/Sand-Valley_zpsb32f2114.jpg.html)
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Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did. So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.
"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."
What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....
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What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....
No doubt
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Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did. So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.
"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."
What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....
....and to know enough people willing to fork over $40thd a piece to be a "founding member" of what will be a public facility and to act as the equity behind what is surely a construction loan.
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Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did. So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.
"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."
What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....
....and to know enough people willing to fork over $40thd a piece to be a "founding member" of what will be a public facility and to act as the equity behind what is surely a construction loan.
I do have to say that this is the most appealing membership I have ever heard of. Then again I'm a man of the people and have no interest in a gated off golf course. ;D
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I'm just glad to know that there could be 5 courses on this property.......
Congrats to Kidd for winning the bid- no doubt this also helps draw some more attention to what he did at Gamble Sands
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I wish they had published that drawing of the winning routing prior to announcing who actually designed it. Reading the guesses would've been an early Christmas gift.
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Am I nuts to think that given the initial huge buzz he got very early in his career and the mixed reception many of his more recent courses have gotten that the stakes are rather high for David with this project?
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"Am I nuts to think that given the initial huge buzz he got very early in his career and the mixed reception many of his more recent courses have gotten that the stakes are rather high for David with this project?"
Jud T -
You might be! ;) Aside from the Castle Course, what other DK courses have received a "mixed reception?" Haven't many of his recent courses have been very well received?
DT
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Am I nuts to think that given the initial huge buzz he got very early in his career and the mixed reception many of his more recent courses have gotten that the stakes are rather high for David with this project?
No bigger than others. I think the 'mixed reception' is for, if you like, David's previous batch of courses - Tetherow, Castle, Stonebrae. His recent work - Guacalito and Gamble for example - has been very well received, and from what I've seen of Comporta and Beaverbrook, I'd be surprised if they didn't go down very well too.
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Jud, he's going to get a boost in name recognition no matter what and all signs point to Sand Valley turning out as an excellent golf resort and destination. How bad would the course have to be to hurt his brand as opposed to helping it? Even if it's the least popular course at the resort in 10 years, his future clients still get to say that they have "David McLay Kidd, of Bandon Dunes and Sand Valley fame" as their designer.
The stakes are high in terms of his reputation on GolfClubAtlas.com. I'm not sure that there's much risk to offset the reward he will undoubtedly reap in real life though.
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Adam,
Although not recent, wouldn't Mach Dunes also be in the 'mixed' column?
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Jud - I would agree the initial reaction to Mach Dunes was pretty mixed, but would argue that most of the negative responses were caused by things that weren't within David's control. You have to remember the restrictions under which that course was built; they weren't allowed to move any earth, except for tees and greens complexes, and there were many areas of the site they were forced to avoid. It was largely this that led to the complaints of excessive blindness and a tough walk.
I remember shortly after we reviewed Mach Dunes in GCA receiving a letter from an American golf tour operator saying that in his opinion the course should never have been built, because the restrictions were too tight to allow something good to have been created. I disagreed at the time and still do. And it's interesting to note that, over time Scottish Natural Heritage and the golf course have developed a more cooperative, trusting relationship, and thus they've been allowed to fix a lot of the problems. I note also that negative reviews of the course are much fewer now than they were at first.
I've contrasted the development of Mach Dunes with that of Trump Aberdeen in print a number of times. In Kintyre, the developers were required to tread very carefully and proceed slowly; at Trump, the MO was bluster and confrontation, and that got him most of what he wanted. But I know which model I think is better for golf and its relations with the world around it. And I know which is more sustainable.
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The stakes are high in terms of his reputation on GolfClubAtlas.com.
This being all that matters to the cognescenti anyway... 8)
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DMK talked about Sand Valley on Morning Drive today:
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/plans-sand-valley-wisconsin/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/plans-sand-valley-wisconsin/)
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Thats actually the December interview. The ridges sound quite dramatic.
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thank you Howard, love how DMK said essentially " this big ridge, which a golfer could understand, the golf would then be the excuse to explore it"
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Thats actually the December interview. The ridges sound quite dramatic.
Thanks for the heads up. I didn't realize that they re-ran the same segment.
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Actually yesterday was new. At the end of yesterday's segment Ginella said he was going to tweet a link to the December Sand Valley segment so I'm assuming that what they have available online.
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New pictures
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/11224129_908215129254239_390227594293029514_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)
Sand Valley Golf Resort
The approach at the short par-4 #9 (for those who don't go for it off the tee). Photo taken by our talented shaper, Ryan Farrow
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/11850745_907608805981538_890793069683468045_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)
Grass is growing nicely on #8 (a short but demanding Par 3) at Sand Valley!
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/t31.0-8/11705465_891913160884436_7817376867603981614_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)
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On the bottom 2 photos the bunkers on the front left look really deep.
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You can follow San Valley on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/sandvalleygolfresort?fref=photo&sk=photos
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Update from the Milwaukee paper, including a video interview with Bill Coore:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/a-treasure-in-the-sand-b99563927z1-322902711.html
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Earlier in this thread, someone opined that it was better from a financial perspective that these courses will have a relatively short playing season, as they won't have (significant) costs during the non-playing months. I've never worked in the golf business, but that doesn't seem right to me--seems like you'd rather be open as many months as possible, unless you're losing money by being open vs. being closed, of course. Am I missing something?
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What's the business model here -- will Sand Valley be a public destination-type venue (as I thought) or private (as a friend has suggested)?
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What's the business model here -- will Sand Valley be a public destination-type venue (as I thought) or private (as a friend has suggested)?
Brian:
Everything I've read and heard says the former -- similar to Bandon, a public destination course with on-site housing/dining. It'd better be (re. the housing/dining); there is literally nothing else in that part of the state in Adams County. Whether the "founders" who provided the first dose of money for the place get some preferred times or preferences, I'm not sure.
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Funny .. I was talking with someone from Wisconsin yesterday who's familiar with the state but isn't much of a golfer. I asked him if he'd heard about the new development near Rome, and he responded: "Yeah, but I don't know what they're going to do over there. All there is sand and dunes in that part of the state."
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I missed this earlier this month. Thanks DJohnson for those photos of what looks to be a lovely course; and, indeed, while it's not worth much coming from me, Ryan F has done some excellent shaping work there.
Peter
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Peter, I wish I could take credit for the shaping out here but my input has been minimal compared to the likes of Jim Craig, who is leading the charge out here along with Dave Axland and Rod Whitman. Zach Varty & Tony Russell have done the bulk of the bunker shaping.
This is pretty much the first time I sat in a piece of heavy machinery since interning for Tom Doak at Rock Creek. I feel pretty lucky to be surrounded by such a talented team, and some pretty stellar ownership!
Here are some updated pictures from a few weeks ago of the 1st and 9th holes.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5781/19904241394_07c49ae365_b.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5746/19904189694_5a6089dd95_b.jpg)
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Via Matt Ginella on Twitter...
"In addition to Dornoch (see @golfadvisor.com), Mike Keiser confirmed Gil Hanse moves to the front of the line for 3rd course at Sand Valley."
"... if and when there's a third, and having lost out on Bandon Muni, Keiser will go with Hanse."
"Keiser hired Gil Hanse 7 years ago, but Bandon Muni never became a reality. Hanse, & the idea of a Jr. caddie program, shift to Sand Valley."
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/660210903183433728 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/660210903183433728)
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/660212869368299524 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/660212869368299524)
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thanks Howard
the government folks in Oregon don't know what they missed out on
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One of the replies to Matt Ginella's post was this question--will Keiser give Tiger a chance to design an 18 at Sand Valley?
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thanks Howard
the government folks in Oregon don't know what they missed out on
How do you figure? They already got 4.5 world class courses in their backyard. I'm pretty sure they knew what they were dealing with.
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I understand that MK probably feels like he owes Hanse a shot. That being said, I really wish that he would give Tom Doak either the 3rd or 4th course at Sand Valley.
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thanks Howard
the government folks in Oregon don't know what they missed out on
How do you figure? They already got 4.5 world class courses in their backyard. I'm pretty sure they knew what they were dealing with.
yes, they have the best golf resort in the world golf in spite of themselves, and thanks to Howard McKee
the South Coast needs all the economy it can get despite those that are anti-capitalism or blind enviromentalists
many who opposed the deal, were in opposition regardless of the Resort or any merits of the project, let alone never visiting the site....oppose to oppose...that is ignorance
:o :o :o
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thanks Howard
the government folks in Oregon don't know what they missed out on
How do you figure? They already got 4.5 world class courses in their backyard. I'm pretty sure they knew what they were dealing with.
yes, they have the best golf resort in the world golf in spite of themselves, and thanks to Howard McKee
the South Coast needs all the economy it can get despite those that are anti-capitalism or blind enviromentalists
many who opposed the deal, were in opposition regardless of the Resort or any merits of the project, let alone never visiting the site....oppose to oppose...that is ignorance
:o :o :o
William, how much time did Keiser spend trying to get that project moving? Five years? More?
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Initially it was reported that Doak and Whitman had picked sites that didn't overlap with any of the other proposed routings allowing for the possibility of 4 courses where the architect gets their first pick of the land. Now that its being reported that Gil Hanse will the the third course, Im starting to wonder about if how this will affect the other two architects routings assuming there is a 4th and possibly 5th course.
Could the Hanse course occupy land chosen by both the Mr. Doak and Mr. Whitman?
The pictures are making this place look really special, but I'm wondering if Sand Valley can sustain 4 or 5 courses. Im not questioning the economics of this project I'm just wondering if there is enough variety from site to site to make each course stand out to Mr. Keiser's "retail golfer".
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Im not questioning the economics of this project I'm just wondering if there is enough variety from site to site to make each course stand out to Mr. Keiser's "retail golfer".
I haven't seen as much of the property as some here, but based on what I have seen, I would make two comments in answer to your question:
1. Although the property has an overall look and feel, there are some landforms that can give each course distinction depending on the routings they ultimately choose.
2. At Bandon, there isn't that much of a difference in the land on which Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, and Old MacDonald sit. They each have their own look and feel, however, because of the styles that the GCAs applied to them. The same is also true at Streamsong.
No reason to think that, based on #1 and #2 above, there won't be plenty of variety from course to course at Sand Valley.
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I just heard from someone who just visited, and played, that the "plan" now is for four courses and a par-3 course a la Bandon.
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There is a lot of variety between different parts of the 1,500 acre property that was initially purchased. As initially conceived, Course 2 by David McLay Kidd will utilize a v-shaped sand dune that is 80 feet high and a couple hundred yards long on each side. The course starts within the V then loops around the back of one side, and then the back nine loops around other side of the dune before climbing up and over and finishing back inside the bowl of the v-shaped dunes. Its quite dramatic and very different than the broad, wider open Sunningdale like areas selected by Coore Crenshaw. Other parts of the property offer more abrupt elevation changes than those two areas. I doubt there will much of an issue with various architects delivering substantially different and unique courses. More significantly the land is like nothing else I've seen in the Upper Midwest. I suspect the third architect will get a free hand to select whatever land they want for the next course.
edit: after seeing Kidd during architecture week 12.10.15 on tv it's clear his routing has changed significantly and now starts at the west end of the V instead of the east end as was the case initially.
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Story about Sand Valley from Matt Ginella on "Morning Drive" Architect Week...
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/boy-scouts-america-offer-land-mike-keiser/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/boy-scouts-america-offer-land-mike-keiser/)
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Just received an e-mail saying that preview play is now open.
Sorry if German.
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Sorry if German.
Man, I haven't heard that since the old Illiniboard.
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Just got an email, SV is open for preview. $70 per round. 18 open plus maybe some others.
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talked to them last night. 9 holes are open but you can play that 9 twice for 18. There will be some days that extra holes are open. Need to reach out to arrange the limited play, and it appears they will have very limited times available initially.
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I played it today. Holes 1-9 are open for preview play as Andrew stated. Holes 10, 16, 17 and 18 look close to ready. Holes 11-15 are in varying stages of construction. It is my understanding that they are hoping to have all 18 open for preview play by September 1.
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A review from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's longtime golf writer:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/381085081.html
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A review from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's longtime golf writer:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/381085081.html
Hahahaha!
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A review from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's longtime golf writer:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/381085081.html (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/381085081.html)
Hahahaha!
Mark, I often do not see what you do. What is funny in the story?
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Guy plays nine holes, declares course one of best publics in America.
Looking forward to his recommendations for best first halves of movies and top halves of paintings.
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Guy plays nine holes, declares course one of best publics in America.
Looking forward to his recommendations for best first halves of movies and top halves of paintings.
LOL
In Sand Valley's case the reality will most likely exceed the hype...just like Keiser's other projects, and unlike Star Wars #??? and most everything else
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Guy plays nine holes, declares course one of best publics in America.
Looking forward to his recommendations for best first halves of movies and top halves of paintings.
LOL
In Sand Valley's case the reality will most likely exceed the hype...just like Keiser's other projects, and unlike Star Wars #??? and most everything else
If you're talking about Episode VII then I think you're mistaken. Definitely met the hype and in my opinion exceeded it.
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II ;D ???
I'm available
Think he'd interview a second time starter?
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Guy plays nine holes, declares course one of best publics in America.
Looking forward to his recommendations for best first halves of movies and top halves of paintings.
Didn't Tom Doak give Sand Hills a 10 before it was open?
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Didn't Tom Doak give Sand Hills a 10 before it was open?
Sand Hills opened? Am I the only guy who missed this?
RE: Sand Valley...Acorn...Tree...nice metaphor.
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Eric,
for VII only 6 months out, despite it's commercial success, I've already forgotten about it except for Rey,,,Hype or Hype Not
destroy another death star, yawn
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/star-wars-reviews-force-awakens/420594/
Sand Valley will go and on and on and on, we're "Talking Body"
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Darth Smiledoc - Thanks for the link. For me, opening night was a first time at Friar's Head experience and one I'll hopefully not forget (despite having seen the movie now many more times.)
Anyway, I think it's silly to compare a movie to a golf course but as far as the hype argument goes, you'd have to be living on Dantooine to believe that The Force Awakens didn't live up to the massive expectations bestowed upon it. Nothing should have to be perfect to be a success. As long as it evokes feeling and, if lucky, sustains it, then by gum you've won me. I wish I could bottle the moment I heard Snoke telling Kylo Ren (and the audience!) that the droid was in the hands of his father, Han Solo. That's the E green at Ballyneal shit right there. 8) Ok, so maybe we can compare film and golf courses. ;D
I'm sorry for the derailment ... May the Force be with you.
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hahaha
Love Friar's Head, remember it very well with only one visit...no hype needed
Sand Valley needs no hype, yet the 9-hole preview is hardly the crapola kind of hype our society happily and eagerly consumes daily
8) 8)
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Sand Valley needs no hype, yet the 9-hole preview is hardly the crapola kind of hype our society happily and eagerly consumes daily
8) 8)
I agree with you. A friend is playing there today and just posted some photos on his Facebook - really really special piece of land and GCA it looks like. See you there in 2017.
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Didn't Tom Doak give Sand Hills a 10 before it was open?
Actually, I gave Sand Hills a 9 in the limited-edition Confidential Guide from 1994, based on walking it in the dirt. I don't think that was an example of over-hyping a course, it was just an early recognition.
Note that architects are perhaps a bit more qualified than others to rate a course from what they see in the dirt, since it is our milieu when we are working on our own projects. However, I would have to watch a bunch of people play a course before I gave it a 10.
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Eric,
for VII only 6 months out, despite it's commercial success, I've already forgotten about it except for Rey,,,Hype or Hype Not
destroy another death star, yawn
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/star-wars-reviews-force-awakens/420594/
William,
Can't agree more. Its like they shut all the writers into the room and said you aren't leaving until you come up with something. So they took episode IV, made a few tweaks and voila....Star Wars all over again!! ;D
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Eric,
for VII only 6 months out, despite it's commercial success, I've already forgotten about it except for Rey,,,Hype or Hype Not
destroy another death star, yawn
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/star-wars-reviews-force-awakens/420594/
William,
Can't agree more. Its like they shut all the writers into the room and said you aren't leaving until you come up with something. So they took episode IV, made a few tweaks and voila....Star Wars all over again!! ;D
Worked for Macdonald and Raynor. ;)
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Eric,
for VII only 6 months out, despite it's commercial success, I've already forgotten about it except for Rey,,,Hype or Hype Not
destroy another death star, yawn
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/star-wars-reviews-force-awakens/420594/
William,
Can't agree more. Its like they shut all the writers into the room and said you aren't leaving until you come up with something. So they took episode IV, made a few tweaks and voila....Star Wars all over again!! ;D
Worked for Macdonald and Raynor. ;)
But unlike MacDonald and Raynor courses....there's only way to "play" star wars with the same outcome again and again!! ;)
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Definitely met the hype and in my opinion exceeded it.
A friend of mine played it. He's a member at Pine Valley and close to the 14 club limit. Said it's unlike anything he's ever seen.
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Now we're getting somewhere -- Joel, how does the back compare to the front? Similarities, differences, etc? And how did you find the overall routing, rhythm, etc?
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Didn't Tom Doak give Sand Hills a 10 before it was open?
Actually, I gave Sand Hills a 9 in the limited-edition Confidential Guide from 1994, based on walking it in the dirt. I don't think that was an example of over-hyping a course, it was just an early recognition.
Note that architects are perhaps a bit more qualified than others to rate a course from what they see in the dirt, since it is our milieu when we are working on our own projects. However, I would have to watch a bunch of people play a course before I gave it a 10.
Fair enough, my mistake. I was trying to make the point that it is possible to recognize a great course very early on.
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Didn't Tom Doak give Sand Hills a 10 before it was open?
Actually, I gave Sand Hills a 9 in the limited-edition Confidential Guide from 1994, based on walking it in the dirt. I don't think that was an example of over-hyping a course, it was just an early recognition.
Note that architects are perhaps a bit more qualified than others to rate a course from what they see in the dirt, since it is our milieu when we are working on our own projects. However, I would have to watch a bunch of people play a course before I gave it a 10.
LOL....missed this earlier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLIerfXuZ4
who are you?
even to the average goofer, the Sand Hills have 9's everywhere the eye can see :)
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http://www.sandvalleygolfresort.com/
nuf said...let the golf begin!
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Yeah, I think we're going to like this place. The first 9 are fully playable, with the need for a few rough spots to fill in, and some bunker work. There's some long holes and short holes, but even now you're getting good run out on drives. Here's a few snaps:
From the drive in... unlike most of the scenery along the way here
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_1165.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/IMG_1165.jpg.html)
The first tee. Interestingly enough, they have a full tennis court laid out just to the left of it. Sorry, no pics!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_1167.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/IMG_1167.jpg.html)
First fairway, what will turn into a fine bunker.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/DSCN1393.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/DSCN1393.jpg.html)
And off to the left... a future hole
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/DSCN1392.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/DSCN1392.jpg.html)
The behind the green bunker of the long par 5 Fourth hole.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_1171.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/IMG_1171.jpg.html)
The flexible par 3 Fifth... thank the clouds for the lighting, eh?
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_1172.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/IMG_1172.jpg.html)
Up the hill to the short par 3 8th. Like if #9 at Greywalls mated with #17 at Arcadia... so much wind up there.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_1174.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/IMG_1174.jpg.html)
And the 9th.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_1175.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/IMG_1175.jpg.html)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_1177.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/IMG_1177.jpg.html)
Off of the 9th is a small lake that the cottages will overlook. Make your reservations now...
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/DSCN1410.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/jheise29/media/DSCN1410.jpg.html)
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I believe the area "inside" of the front nine loop is going to be a driving range/short course combo. Similar to the south range at Bandon.
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I was up there yesterday. I'll post some photos later. The area left of the first hole is an additional/alternate hole that will come back to the start to create a 6-hole loop. If I understood the explanation, players will hit their tee shots on the par-3 5th, and then their tee shots on that alternate hole, from the same high point teeing area (a la Olympia Fields North). They will go play out the fifth, and then continue down the hill to their drives on the alternate "home" hole.
We also heard that the grass tennis court between the 1st tee and 9th green that they created for fun is going to stay (at least for a while).
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On our visit yesterday, we played the front nine twice, and 10, 16-18 once. We also got a peek at the work on the DMK course, which is starting to look really neat.
The way I would describe Sand Valley (that is what both the C&C course and the resort will be called) is:
The expansive feel of Colorado GC or Old Sandwich, with the color and texture contrast of Friar's Head or Streamsong.
There are some familiar strategic C&C themes and features, but there are also holes (7 and 17 for example) that are unlike anything that I have ever seen.
When we finished playing, we ran into the Superintendent Rob (formerly the Assistant at Kingsley), and he mentioned that the 11th through 15th holes are his favorites on the course. Those holes were in the rough shaping phase when I visited last fall, and we didn't walk out that way this time, so I don't know how they could be better than the others. The holes that are open are that good.
I echo the recommendations of others - go to Sand Valley as soon as you can.
Photos to come in next post...
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The light wasn't the best for photos for much of the afternoon, but you'll get the idea.
#1 - Par 4
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley1-tee-e1465006233421.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley1-approach1-e1465006295509.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley1-shortleft-e1465006340189.jpeg)
#2 - Par 4
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley2-tee-e1465006404935.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley2-fairway-e1465006379782.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley2-approach-e1465006363544.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley2-greenright-e1465006391462.jpeg)
#3 - Par 3
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley3-approach-e1465006418476.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley3-shortleft-e1465009284905.jpg)
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#4 - Par 5
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley4-tee-e1465006467180.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley4-fairway-e1465006444403.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley4-approach-e1465006432890.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley4-greenback-e1465006456733.jpeg)
#5 - Par 3
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley5-tee-e1465006493374.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley5-greenback-e1465006480934.jpeg)
#6 - Par 4
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley6-teezoom-e1465006546245.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley6-fairway-e1465006507875.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley6-shortright-e1465006533721.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley6-greenback-e1465006520568.jpeg)
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#7 - Par 5
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley7-teezoom-e1465006605725.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley7-fairway-e1465006558860.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley7-fairwaybunker-e1465006571154.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley7-greenback-e1465006583560.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley7-greenbehind-e1465006594157.jpeg)
#8 - Par 3
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley8-teezoom-e1465006638423.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley8-shortright-e1465006626633.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley8-bunker-e1465006616936.jpeg)
#9 - Par 4
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley9-tee-e1465006682982.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley9-fairway-e1465006658903.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley9-approach-e1465006648594.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley9-greenback-e1465006670185.jpeg)
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#16 - Par 4
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley16-approach-e1465006694132.jpeg)
#17 - Par 3
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley17-teezoom-e1465006739338.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley17-greenshort-e1465006729209.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley17-backright-e1465006707977.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley17-greenback-e1465006717570.jpeg)
#18 - Par 5
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley18-approach-e1465006749358.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/sandvalley18-greenback-e1465006765386.jpeg)
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Jason:
Thanks for posting these -- obviously, pretty fascinating stuff. The 9th looks like a candidate as the course's "signature hole" (not necessarily the best one, but the most photographic). One question -- what % of holes would you say have an uphill approach? This is one of the few truly sand-based environments for a golf course in the Midwest, and I'm hoping the designers have utilized the ground game as an element in the overall scheme of building/routing holes.
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(http://www.drudgesiren.com/siren.gif)
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One question -- what % of holes would you say have an uphill approach? This is one of the few truly sand-based environments for a golf course in the Midwest, and I'm hoping the designers have utilized the ground game as an element in the overall scheme of building/routing holes.
Of the holes we played, 1,2,4,8,9,16,18 have uphill approaches. Of those holes, the only green where it would be really difficult to run the ball in is 8, but that hole is 135ish from the back tees and 120 from the the regular tees, if I recall correctly. The 5th is more of a drop shot par 3, but it is also not that long.
The ground game works well on every other hole we played and there are cool slopes, contours and mounds around the greens that allow for creative shot making. We gave ourselves a rule that shots inside 100 yards could not be played with wedges, and it was a blast.
Once the fescue matures and the turf firms up, a player will be able to play whatever kind of approach floats their boat.
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Looks very promising. 8 and 9 comprise a thrilling tandem. I'll head up in August if all works out.
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I played here twice last weekend.
The Fried Egg has a nice review which I can find little to disagree with.
http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/sand-valley-review
Beginning with his intro picture "minimalism is a theme from the start at Sand Valley"
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5662fbfce4b03851361678d4/t/5790e52037c58134d4734c49/1469113650646/?format=750w)
The drive in (for now) is about 1/2 mile down a gravel/sand road. It is manned by some local kids sitting there with a tee sheet, allowing those with tee times to pass (the area loves this development as far as i can tell, because of the local employment in an area that could use some). The entrance drive is through some dunescape, and that set the tone for me. This was going to be some adventure golf.
Since Jason Way's trip - it looks like they may have opened #10, pics and description from Fried Egg:
Hole #10 - Par 5 - 580 yardsOn to the back side and the downhill par 5 10th. A good drive must avoid the large bunker that sits in the middle of the wide fairway. From the fairway, a player is left with a downhill shot to the green protected by a massive bunker on the right side. A good shot will funnel the ball down to the middle of the green and close to the pin with this punchbowl like green complex.
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5662fbfce4b03851361678d4/t/5790f443e58c624620796f2c/1469117514663/?format=750w)
My comments: this tee shot confused all of us. You can see the left-center line bunker in the landing zone. My first time through, I guessed that there must be some advantage to hitting it left of the bunker in the narrow cut of fairway. So did my playing partners, so we all aimed there. Some of them hit it into that slot, some others ( :-[ ) didn't. In the end, none of us saw any advantage gained by threading that little needle, so next time through just wailed away to the right of that bunker.
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5662fbfce4b03851361678d4/t/5790ec775016e14d27cc6645/1469115518437/?format=750w)
At the end of the day: most of us loved it. The few that didn't preferred greener traditional U.S. parkland golf. But not me. From the very first tee, strategy was required (the better strategies weren't evident until after playing the holes). Something always lured us into taking more risky lines than advisable. Take #1 for instance:
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5662fbfce4b03851361678d4/t/5790ecff414fb5cf069f8e34/1469115657200/?format=750w)
With a right to left wind, most of us wanted to cut something off and head more directly towards the green. After playing it, we turned back and said "there's 80 yards of fairway out to the right" which, while giving a bit tougher approach, was an obvious play that the visual from the tee concealed.
Views, terrain, strategy, elevation change, ground game, seclusion - that's how I'd sum it up. I'll be back there as often as I can.
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Thanks for the kind words about my review on my site.
I love the way Coore & Crenshaw's design provides infinite shot options around the greens and is extremely playable for players of all skill levels. I am really looking forward to going back and seeing holes 11-15 and the rest of the course mature and grow in.
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I got an email yesterday that mentioned that all 18 will be open post labor day.
I went up two weekends ago. The course is a blast to play and the views are amazing. The halfway house is open, brats are excellent and the beer is cheap.
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Just played today and WOW ;D Played the front nine twice plus four bonus holes (10, 16, 17 & 18). Loved the front. Every hole offered a different challenge. Ground game in play all over the place :) 17, the punchbowl, was a blast!
That being said, surprised they are going all 18 on September 1st. Still a lot of grow in to go on 16. Maybe the other 5 on the back are closer but was a bit surprised when I heard about the 18.
Regardless, the course is a blast and can't wait for it to fully grow in and mature!
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For those who have been, how does the DMK course/site/land compare to Sand Valley?
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The DMK land is similar yet different. Similar in that it probably will have the same pine barrens look, different in that it is designed in and around a dramatic v-shaped dune that is 60' high and 200 yards long. I haven't looked at the land since they started working on it and know the routing has changed a few times as they have updated the overall infrastructure plan for the site in terms of where to put roads, the clubhouse etc. I suspect DMK will work to differentiate the look of the bunkers etc from the CC course to give his course its own personality. Next visit, maybe later this week, I hope to take a much closer look at Course 2.
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Dan:.
Using the halfway house as the center of the compass, in which general direction is the second course?
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North and to the east of the current entrance road.
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Thanks Dan. Would love to hear your thoughts/observations on the second course once you've had the chance to scope it out a bit. Please post when you return!
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Was there yesterday. Played 14 holes and walked 4. One word sums up the course - scale. It's a very big golf course with extreme fairway width and large greens. Passed the one ball test with ease. I enjoyed it immensely and highly recommend a visit.
I will be interested in other opinions, but my main thought is an odd one: Bandon Trails (a personal favorite) is two points better on any scale and perhaps one of the top ten modern courses in America.
Mike
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SI's Gary Van Sickle gushes about the C&C course at Sand Valley...
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/exploring-wisconsins-new-sand-valley-golf-resort (http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/exploring-wisconsins-new-sand-valley-golf-resort)
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Sorry if it appears earlier in the thread, but what is the anticipated schedule for the 2nd course?
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Here are a few shots from my trip up this week. Sand Valley is going to be a very special place...
#1
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/SV1_1.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/SV1_1.jpg.html)
#5
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/SV5.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/SV5.jpg.html)
#9
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/SV9.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/SV9.jpg.html)
#10
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/SV10.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/SV10.jpg.html)
#17
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/SV17.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/SV17.jpg.html)
#18 - Looking back towards the tee
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/SV18.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/SV18.jpg.html)
#10 at sunset
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/SV1.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/SV1.jpg.html)
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George,
Any insights you would like to share. Thoughts about the routing, variety of holes, primary characteristics, what defines it as a course, favorite holes etc.
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Golf Channel's Matt Ginella this morning reported on the first and second courses at Sand Valley:
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/ginella-sand-valleys-second-course-taking-shape/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/ginella-sand-valleys-second-course-taking-shape/)
A few other items of note in an accompanying article:
* Next summer, six holes (Nos. 1, 2 and 15-18) of Kidd's yet-to-be-named course will be available for preview play, with an official opening of all 18 holes in 2018. Meanwhile, the Coore-Crenshaw course, called Sand Valley, will officially open May 1, 2017.
* Keiser is also working with Coore-Crenshaw on a 30-acre short course."Right now we're calling it the Bump-and-Run," said Michael. "There are 20 holes and they will be everything from 20 to 160 yards. It will be a hybrid of Preserve and Punchbowl." (Bandon's par-3 and putting course, respectively.) “It's really taken on a life of its own. It's awesome."
* There are also alternate routings by multiple architects for more 18-hole courses and additional short courses. Names include more Coore-Crenshaw, Doak, Mike DeVries and Jim Urbina.
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/sand-valley-golf-resort-16123.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/sand-valley-golf-resort-16123.htm)
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I believe the name for the second course was (or still is?) Mammoth Dunes. For a brief period after the website launched, the resort map had that name listed for the second course but after a few days it was changed to "Course 2"
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Just posted a recap of my two visits this year to Sand Valley on my blog, including photos and updates from when I was there for a walkabout on Nov. 30th:
https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/
Hope you enjoy. With single digit temps and a covering of snow here, I am already looking forward to getting back up there in the spring.
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Just posted a recap of my two visits this year to Sand Valley on my blog, including photos and updates from when I was there for a walkabout on Nov. 30th:
https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/ (https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/)
Hope you enjoy. With single digit temps and a covering of snow here, I am already looking forward to getting back up there in the spring.
Thanks for posting. Can't wait to get out there.
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I played 14 holes in August and walked the other four. It's a very good golf course but perhaps I "didn't get it." It does photograph nicely.
My overall impression is that the course was designed to be accommodating - this coming from one who needs all the accommodation an architect will grant. There were no hard edges and the architecture seemed rounded off, for lack of a better term. Can extreme width be boring? What about giant greens void of internal contouring (okay I'll admit to a little hyperbole there). For crying out loud I hit all four one-shotters - the 14th was not open for play and is the most stunning hole there in my opinion (and perhaps as close to Pine Valley as I'd like to get), and lipped out birdies on the redan and punchbowl. Damn near died coming up 18 on what must have been the only windless 100 degree day in Wisconsin this year. I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.
I don't have my yardage book handy so I'll need to follow up but I must say that it's an indictment against a course when I can't vividly remember each hole or draw a stick routing from memory. Perhaps it was the heat. For the digitally enamored crowd, I'd go with a 7. Among moderns it's a couple of notches below personal favorites Ballyneal (which somehow gets better based upon visiting the next big things) and Bandon Trails. In the region, it's a full notch below Lawsonia. Coore, Crenshaw and Langford are all geniuses in my book, but only at Lawsonia is the genius on display. Splitting 10 rounds, I go 8/2 Lawsonia over Sand Valley.
Dallas drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs says "check it out."
Bogey
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Thanks, Bogey. My from-photos-only perspective is (for others) understandably not worth the paper it's written on; but (for me) it's comforting that someone who has played the course confirms what my eyes are telling me. More damning perhaps (though equally uninformed) is this sinking feeling I have that I can no longer distinguish one course from another; looking at those photos I can't tell if I'm on Long Island or in Oregon or the Midwest or New Jersey or North Carolina - and that doesn't seem like a good thing.
Peter
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I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.
If 18 at Pac is your "litmus test" of an uphill finisher, I'd suggest you get out a bit more. Its technically downhill from tee to green.
Perhaps it was the walk up to the tees that got you. In that case, you'd be happy to know its played from the lower up tees in the winter (in which case it might technically be an uphill hole, but only slightly).
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I played 14 holes in August and walked the other four. It's a very good golf course but perhaps I "didn't get it." It does photograph nicely.
My overall impression is that the course was designed to be accommodating - this coming from one who needs all the accommodation an architect will grant. There were no hard edges and the architecture seemed rounded off, for lack of a better term. Can extreme width be boring? What about giant greens void of internal contouring (okay I'll admit to a little hyperbole there). For crying out loud I hit all four one-shotters - the 14th was not open for play and is the most stunning hole there in my opinion (and perhaps as close to Pine Valley as I'd like to get), and lipped out birdies on the redan and punchbowl. Damn near died coming up 18 on what must have been the only windless 100 degree day in Wisconsin this year. I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.
I don't have my yardage book handy so I'll need to follow up but I must say that it's an indictment against a course when I can't vividly remember each hole or draw a stick routing from memory. Perhaps it was the heat. For the digitally enamored crowd, I'd go with a 7. Among moderns it's a couple of notches below personal favorites Ballyneal (which somehow gets better based upon visiting the next big things) and Bandon Trails. In the region, it's a full notch below Lawsonia. Coore, Crenshaw and Langford are all geniuses in my book, but only at Lawsonia is the genius on display. Splitting 10 rounds, I go 8/2 Lawsonia over Sand Valley.
Dallas drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs says "check it out."
Bogey
Mr Bogey,
Thank you for a detailed review. It's refreshing to hear someone with honest viewpoint. Lawsonia is in my top 5 short list, maybe 2018 i will fit it in....
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Just posted a recap of my two visits this year to Sand Valley on my blog, including photos and updates from when I was there for a walkabout on Nov. 30th:
https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/ (https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/)
Hope you enjoy. With single digit temps and a covering of snow here, I am already looking forward to getting back up there in the spring.
Jason,
Great write up as always. Would love to see Andy Staples and or Mike Young get a shot at one of the last few courses. I think i prefer the Kidd course to the C&C course just viewing by photos.
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I was able to play Sand Valley 3x in 2016. I played the front 9 on the first trip and the full 18 on the 2nd and 3rd trips.
Here are a few thoughts. Hopefully they address some of the questions that were asked in earlier posts.
Perfect terrain. The familiar views of lakes and trees just outside the entrance changes dramatically once inside. Suddenly the land has morphed into hilly terrain consisting of sand dunes and sandy hills and ridges. The course has enough changes in elevation to offer terrific views and a variety of uphill, downhill and flattish holes. The slopes are gradual and soft enough to make for a fairly easy walk . The walk is less extreme than what is encountered at Erin Hills, Kingsley, Dismal Nicklaus, or even White Bear or Northland in MN. Lawsonia or Bandon (x Trails) are better comparisons. There are very few blind shots because the slopes are gradual. Sand dunes and ridges provide interesting fairway contours and green sites.
Playability for different skill levels. Duffers like me will appreciate the wide fairways that catch balls that would normally land in the rough or rattle around in a tree's branches. Forced carries were optional on all of the holes I played. The player can choose his line and level of risk. Low cappers can take aggressive lines over the sand to catch a speed slot and maximize distance. There are 6 tee boxes ranging from 6800 to 5300 yards (par 70). Mike Kaiser has expressed an interest in creating courses that are more forgiving and playable. The C+C course has accomplished that. It is certainly less difficult than Erin Hills or Kohler's Blackwolf/Whistling courses. Many golfers will not lose a ball during a round.
Expansive feeling. The feeling of expansiveness is similar to what one experiences at Kingsley or Lawsonia Links. At least 7 holes are visible from the combined 1st and 10th tees. The fairways are very wide (2-3x a parkland course) with lots of sand on the sides. There aren't many trees left. There are no tee boxes as the teeing areas are an extension of the fairways. Bunkers emerge from the sandy area next to the fairways. It's a very natural and uncluttered look.
Excellent routing. The green to tee walks are mostly short. The way to the next hole is intuitive in most cases and follows the natural flow of the land. Holes move up, down, and through the sand dunes.
Great hole and green variety. Each hole and most of the greens were distinct. Some greens had tiers, some had significant contours, some had minimal contours with significant slopes, and some were rather flattish. As a collection, they are less extreme than at many of the peer courses I've mentioned above.
Optimal turf. The fescue fairways are already fast and firm. The greens are bent and are rolling smooth.
Best holes. The front 9 is the stronger of the 2 for me. I think that the last 3 holes of both the front and back are the standouts for each 9. Hole 7 (par 5) has a fascinating serpentine bunker that emerges from the left side and then runs in the middle of the fairway for about 30-40% of the length of the hole. Hole 8 (par 3) is the one of the best short par 3s I have played. There are a lot of elements on this little hole: uphill tee shot, infinity green, massive bunkers short, lots of wind, green with more slope than you think. Hole 9 (par 4) is a dramatic downhill short par 4 that big hitters can reach. The green has an interesting horseshoe-shaped back tier that makes judging the 2nd shot - even a short one - challenging. Hole 16 (par 4) has really bold and interesting fairway contours and a great kick plate left of the green. Like number 7, this one will take more plays to figure-out the best ways to play it. Hole 17 is a long uphill par 3 to a punchbowl green that is hidden behind 2 grassed dunes. This green reminded me of some I saw at Dormie where there were many little sections within the green itself. Hole 18 is a long par 5 that travels up the hill. The green looks so far-away from the tee. Imposing bunkers must be avoided with all 3 shots. The green is massive; I believe it's 50 yards deep. This is a BIG hole, which is the perfect way to end your 18 hole journey.
Management. The Kaisers and their team are dialed-in and making all the right choices. It took many years for the short course and the Punchbowl to be built at Bandon. They are not waiting at Sand Valley. A short pitch and putt course is being built right now. An alternate 6th hole that runs from the 5th green back to the starters/half way house has been built to create a 6 hole loop. Beers and cocktails are $3. Burgers/brats and (awesome) Italian beef sandwiches are 4 or $5. Some of the employees were transferred from Bandon. Clark was their front man when I visited and couldn't have been more accommodating and enthusiastic. The on-course lodging is being built adjacent to the courses and looks to have the perfect mix of nice but laid-back finishes.
I will post some pictures soon.
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Michael H, I may be a bit biased having spent 2 years on the project at Sand Valley but to say you would play Lawsonia 8 out of 10 rounds there is a bit of a head scratcher. I like Lawsonia as much as the next guy but the two golf courses are not in the same league in many respects. I think Lawsonia's greens are fantastic but they lack variety in shape and size in my opinion. There are a few outliers but after my first round I suffered a bit from remembering the holes, especially on the back 9 where 7 or so holes run parallel to each other on a fairly uninspiring piece of ground.
If you are having a difficult time remembering the holes at SV I see that as more of an indictment on you ;) The course weaves in and out of some pretty unique and varying land forms/environments and each hole and green site is vastly different from the next. I couldn't disagree more with your assessment.
The extensive width is fine to me, there are plenty of pins out there which dictate all 60-80 yards of fairway at times, it is not width for the sake of width. You also need to understand the ground out here is big and broad. With firm an fast fescue fairways you need to leave a lot room for the ball to roll out or otherwise well placed shots will end up in sand and/or native vegetation. I know you were a bit playful with your comment about green contouring but they are certainly not flat or boring. We have punch bowls, perched greens, greens with one strong consistent tilt like the 2nd, greens like the 9th with a massive tier that separates the front and back.
With that said, I recommend Lawsonia as a must play for anyone coming to visit Sand Valley. The shaping work and contours coming off of those massive bunkers is a thing of beauty in and of itself. Believe me when I say that Sand Valley will be the go to summer golf destination in the US. I know this message board kind of poo pooed the comparison to Pine Valley when this place was getting off the ground but if you had the chance to walk around the 1,000's upon 1,000's of acres they have available for golf you would have felt the same way. The future of Sand Valley is brighter than anyone could have imagined.
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Ryan, I have not yet played Sand Valley, so I will preface my remarks with that upfront. Having played Lawsonia, I think I understand where Bogey is coming from when he says he prefers Lawsonia over Sand Valley. I thought Lawsonia was an incredible value. I played it the same weekend I played Erin Hills. I enjoyed Erin Hills, and I'm glad that I've played it. But I could play two days (all day) at Lawsonia for the cost of a single round at Erin Hills. I don't know what the costs will be to play Sand Valley, but I think I'm safe in assuming that Lawsonia will continue to be a better value versus Sand Valley. So I probably would play Lawsonia more often than Sand Valley.
That said, I do hope to play at Sand Valley at some point.
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Ryan, I have not yet played Sand Valley, so I will preface my remarks with that upfront. Having played Lawsonia, I think I understand where Bogey is coming from when he says he prefers Lawsonia over Sand Valley. I thought Lawsonia was an incredible value. I played it the same weekend I played Erin Hills. I enjoyed Erin Hills, and I'm glad that I've played it. But I could play two days (all day) at Lawsonia for the cost of a single round at Erin Hills. I don't know what the costs will be to play Sand Valley, but I think I'm safe in assuming that Lawsonia will continue to be a better value versus Sand Valley. So I probably would play Lawsonia more often than Sand Valley.
That said, I do hope to play at Sand Valley at some point.
I played Lawsonia in the Spring for $30. Probably the best value round I ever played but you are looking at $95 in the summer, on the weekend (still a great deal). $155 all day. Keep in mind, not many people are going to travel 5,6,7,8 hours to play Lawsonia. I am just going to ignore the fact that you valued a round of golf without ever experiencing it.
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Ryan, I have not yet played Sand Valley, so I will preface my remarks with that upfront. Having played Lawsonia, I think I understand where Bogey is coming from when he says he prefers Lawsonia over Sand Valley. I thought Lawsonia was an incredible value. I played it the same weekend I played Erin Hills. I enjoyed Erin Hills, and I'm glad that I've played it. But I could play two days (all day) at Lawsonia for the cost of a single round at Erin Hills. I don't know what the costs will be to play Sand Valley, but I think I'm safe in assuming that Lawsonia will continue to be a better value versus Sand Valley. So I probably would play Lawsonia more often than Sand Valley.
That said, I do hope to play at Sand Valley at some point.
I played Lawsonia in the Spring for $30. Probably the best value round I ever played but you are looking at $95 in the summer, on the weekend (still a great deal). $155 all day. Keep in mind, not many people are going to travel 5,6,7,8 hours to play Lawsonia. I am just going to ignore the fact that you valued a round of golf without ever experiencing it.
I'll try to get to Sand Valley in 2017, but I can't say it's my top priority. Living in the Twin Cities, I did drive 4 hours to Lawsonia, and I will do so again in 2017.
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Twin cities, you are practically next door. It should be your top priority. Why are you not convinced?
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Twin cities, you are practically next door. It should be your top priority. Why are you not convinced?
I never said I wasn't convinced. I have two small boys at home who take up most of my free time. So when I do have the time to play, I'm going to maximize the value and play as much as I can, hence the reason I'll be going back to Lawsonia.
I'll get to SV when I am able to do so.
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Ryan -
I enjoyed meeting you at Sand Valley last year. You have certainly done some exceptional work there.
I agree that the width of the fairways is important. I was quite windy on all 3 of my trips there (approx. two clubs). When the wind was coming directly from the side, the width was definitely appreciated and it made the shot really fun. This was also a heavier rain year. In more normal years I expect that the fairways will be drier and the ball will run more.
What are the next steps for the C+C course?
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Having played SV and Lawsonia in the same day back in August, I find myself between Bogey and Ryan's POVs, but closer to Ryan's. I thought the rolling shaping at SV blended the course into the surroundings nicely, and even though I shot a pleasant score, I didn't by any stretch feel as though the course was too easy or anything like that. Nor did I find the greens as lacking in internal contour. I imagine they'll get at least a little faster in the coming years, and will continue to be a lot of fun to putt and pitch to.
Ryan, I did like Lawsonia's back nine a bit more than you do. Part of it may have to do with the fact that I arrived on that open sloping bit of land late on a perfect-weather day and experienced the "Golden Hour," which I thought highlighted the contours splendidly. I was inspired, but will admit to having been taken in by the whole scene.
If pressed, I'd go 6-4 in favor of SV. But both courses exist in very different contexts. That said, visitors to SV should absolutely check out Lawsonia, at least until there are more than two or three "big" courses on-site at SV.
As an addendum, I think the Keisers' aggressive focus on short courses is brilliant, because a lot of the folks who were okay walking 36 in a day at Bandon a decade or more ago are getting to the age where it's going to be beyond their desire or capability at SV. 18 and a knock around the Bump & Run will be perfect. Bravo.
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Ryan, you are justifiably proud of you work at Sand Valley, and your comments and Morgan's are far more thoughtful than mine. I appreciate them.
I'm likely biased as we continue to be inundated with the "next big thing" almost universally sited on rollicking, heaving, dunesy landscapes in unlikely locales. It's a good thing for golf architecture, but I can't help but wonder if the genre might become dated a few decades down the road. I can't help but think that Ben and Bill should have broken the mold after Sand Hills and Bandon Trails (though Friar's Head looks mighty tasty!) and Tom should have done the same after Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes. I am so fond of their work and a man's got to make a living and I guess I'm just aggravated that they won't be building anything in my back yard during our collective lifetimes.
Fwiw, my preference for Lawsonia has nothing to do with value. I'm biased because it's darn near perfect for me. I think it's a solid 8 but suspect that's a point higher than most would have it. I think Lawsonia is the quintessential American golf course, made all the better by the fact that no one has seen fit to ruin it over an extended period of time.
I visit Madison annually in August and hope to make many more trips to Sand Valley. After all, it's a lot more convenient than Brora.
Cheers ya'll.
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I echo your melancholy, amigo. We have no Doak, no CC, in Buffalo-Niagara (nor over the border, for that matter.) We have an RTJ2PostChambers north of Niagara Falls, that RTJ2 had the sense to not push up and create faux-dunes. It's a flat piece of land and he allows it to play that way.
I suspect it would be nice to have one of their tracks as a home layout, but alas, not all are fated to have that benefit.
Happy Holidays, y'all.
I am so fond of their work and a man's got to make a living and I guess I'm just aggravated that they won't be building anything in my back yard during our collective lifetimes.
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I played 14 holes in August and walked the other four. It's a very good golf course but perhaps I "didn't get it." It does photograph nicely.
My overall impression is that the course was designed to be accommodating - this coming from one who needs all the accommodation an architect will grant. There were no hard edges and the architecture seemed rounded off, for lack of a better term. Can extreme width be boring? What about giant greens void of internal contouring (okay I'll admit to a little hyperbole there). For crying out loud I hit all four one-shotters - the 14th was not open for play and is the most stunning hole there in my opinion (and perhaps as close to Pine Valley as I'd like to get), and lipped out birdies on the redan and punchbowl. Damn near died coming up 18 on what must have been the only windless 100 degree day in Wisconsin this year. I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.
I don't have my yardage book handy so I'll need to follow up but I must say that it's an indictment against a course when I can't vividly remember each hole or draw a stick routing from memory. Perhaps it was the heat. For the digitally enamored crowd, I'd go with a 7. Among moderns it's a couple of notches below personal favorites Ballyneal (which somehow gets better based upon visiting the next big things) and Bandon Trails. In the region, it's a full notch below Lawsonia. Coore, Crenshaw and Langford are all geniuses in my book, but only at Lawsonia is the genius on display. Splitting 10 rounds, I go 8/2 Lawsonia over Sand Valley.
Dallas drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs says "check it out."
Bogey
Bogey,
You have really pissed me off this time. Normally, I refrain from responding to your comments, but I can't hold back with this. What exactly is the problem with the most accomplished modern architectural company on the planet applying their philosophy to a rolling sandy terrain?
You work so hard to be a contrarian that you lose sight of what is in front of you. I do not deny that Lawsonia is a great course -- better than SV? Come on.
In the end, what irritates me most is that you have no idea what it takes to convert raw land into what C&C built at Sand Valley. To make unfounded, intentionally contrarian comments without the foundation to back up your thesis is insulting.
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8) :-\
Boy it would be fun to get a good site like that to build a course on !
Woo woo
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Bogey,
You have really pissed me off this time. Normally, I refrain from responding to your comments, but I can't hold back with this. What exactly is the problem with the most accomplished modern architectural company on the planet applying their philosophy to a rolling sandy terrain?
You work so hard to be a contrarian that you lose sight of what is in front of you. I do not deny that Lawsonia is a great course -- better than SV? Come on.
In the end, what irritates me most is that you have no idea what it takes to convert raw land into what C&C built at Sand Valley. To make unfounded, intentionally contrarian comments without the foundation to back up your thesis is insulting.
Which comments of Bogey's are unfounded?
If he thinks Lawsonia is better than SV, that's what he thinks. What makes that opinion objectively wrong?
The construction/design process C&C went through to build SV seems to me completely irrelevant when comparing the course to others.
Overall, I thought Bogey made concise, detailed comments. Your response to him seems to me a bunch of name-calling and ad hominem attacks.
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I wonder what Bill and Ben would think (not what they would say) about the comments on the last couple of pages (about Sand Valley, Lawsonia, and Sand Valley vs. Lawsonia).
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John, there is far more motivation on this site to endear oneself to Messrs. Coore and Crenshaw than there is to Mr. Langford. is there not?
I don't mind being wrong when the stakes are so low, but I know what I like and I like poking the bear every now and then. Oh, and Lawsonia.
Cheers,
Mike
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So are there right and wrong opinions?
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So are there right and wrong opinions?
As one of my architect friends often reminds me, the answer is yes...and mine are WRONG!
So I let him be right sometimes....
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So are there right and wrong opinions?
Hoov,
The 3 by 5 cards were just sent out a few days ago. Sent them to Lawsonia this year. :)
Mr Bogey,
Reading ur 2nd post has me in total agreement. Having only played 2 original C&C and one restored on clay Old Town, which I believe was outstanding, CLAY it is. You are ahead of the game, you get it, they are lagging behind. I solitified my agreement after reading Ran's most awesome Wykagyl write up last night.
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John, there is far more motivation on this site to endear oneself to Messrs. Coore and Crenshaw than there is to Mr. Langford. is there not?
I don't mind being wrong when the stakes are so low, but I know what I like and I like poking the bear every now and then. Oh, and Lawsonia.
Cheers,
Mike
Bogey
Could this be a case of "looks like .... and ..... and ...." I have said it before, but the I don't believe the problem (if thats the right word) is architects and their designs, but that people travel to see a decent percentage of these designs. I don't care who you are (except for Fowler), if one is committed to a certain style of design then eventually the courses will start to look the same. I dare say for the sandy and hilly sites, they will play similar as well...and if they don't play like a sandy site folks will be disappointed and feel cheated somehow. Its good that you can identify what it is you like and what it is you really like because that is all that matters.
For the record...should I ever make it Sand Valley way...the main course I want to see is Lawsonia....Sand Valley is the icing on the cake. Why? I don't really care which is better and which has the higher Doak score...I don't play many Lawsonias....they are rare.
Merry Christmas & Ciao
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I can't help but think that Ben and Bill should have broken the mold after Sand Hills and Bandon Trails (though Friar's Head looks mighty tasty!) and Tom should have done the same after Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes.
Gotta admit, I don't really understand what this means. Do you mean they shouldn't have accepted jobs on similar sites to those which they've built highly regarded courses upon previously? Or do you mean they have some sort of formula for these courses that they are following?
Nice post, Sean.
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I find it highly unlikely that Kaiser will hand over the land to a Fazio and/or Nicklaus. It's possible, sure, but it would certainly break the successful mold.
George,
The above post is #9 on this thread. To borrow Pat's term, Sand Valley definitely doesn't "break the successful mold." I'm simply wondering if this genre of golf course is quickly becoming a stylistic brand for today's golden boys or at least the darling of the architectural cognoscenti, who are suckers for the next big thing and can't resist"gushing" about it pre-opening.
I know it's apples to oranges but Crump and Neville went out on top with one song and a mic drop.
With apologies to Alan Jackson, is too much of a good thing a good thing?
Bogey
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Michael H -
I was referring more to the tone than to the content of some comments (as Bill and Ben are true gentlemen). A healthy, respectful discussion is a good thing.
For what it's worth, I absolutely love Lawsonia. I have played Sand Valley only once and need to get to know that course better.
Thanks.
John
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To borrow Pat's term, Sand Valley definitely doesn't "break the successful mold." I'm simply wondering if this genre of golf course is quickly becoming a stylistic brand for today's golden boys or at least the darling of the architectural cognoscenti, who are suckers for the next big thing and can't resist"gushing" about it pre-opening.
I remain confused.
Would you prefer that they not accept jobs? Or depart from the practices that have resulted in many highly regarded courses?
We are not talking about a painter looking to break new ground in his art form. We are talking about golf courses that golfers actually play golf on.
You're a wise guy (a guy who possesses wisdom, not a wiseguy). What do you suggest?
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George, I'm grateful for Sand Valley since I travel to Madison each summer. I can't fathom not playing there and at Lawsonia every single year. Oh, and I did give it a cursory 7 and recommend folks to play there.
The architect and developer don't need to change a thing - we're all the better for their work and investment. I just don't think this genre/style automatically qualifies for gushing and hype and an easy 8 as soon as we get photographs with grass growing. The quality is more granular than the prevailing sentiment. If I'm wrong, it will be a pretty boring top 100 modern list a few years from now.
Make sense?
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Dear Mr. Bogey,
You are a dumba** redneck who should not try and make intelligent comments on a site such as this...."Sand is the new Black" ;D ;D ;D ... Comparing Lawsonia and SV are like comparing the new first lady Trump with Jackie Kennedy...there is no way to compare brand new with old...give it time. Plus there is no legitimate way to do it. And here is the thing about C&C...very nice guys and they did not create the issue. BUT the golf writer types treat them just like composer David Foster treated Trump when he turned down the Trump inauguration music while calling him a dear old friend BUT if he took the job it might keep many of his friends who are Hillary supporters from donating to his foundation... Same crap....
I find it interesting that Golfweek was down rating and playing Bluejack National with just 7 holes done...hell we all knew it was going to be ranked number one when we kept seeing the photo of the owner with the nice sweater wrapped around his neck...all about selling a lifestyle and it's maybe his second project..
Just remember , Yankees will try to intimidate you if you let them....don't fall for that crap...
My question for the new year is are you good if you are ranked or should it be if you are ranked you are good? Being ranked 9th best new when only 6 are built is very confusing ;D ;D ;D
Merry Christmas
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Make sense?
Not really, no.
Different for the sake of being different is a childish notion, imho. It draws praise from the almost intelligent, like some of the posters on this site, but it does nothing to advance the art, nor does it do anything to advance the game among the rest of us.
Be happy with your embarrassment of riches and leave it at that.
That is true wisdom...
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Thank you Mike. You so get me. I completely mis-stutter stepped.
Also, I suggest your next course be called Billy Jack National.
Merry Christmas
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Bogey, I think I get what you're saying, and what Mike is saying, but I also think you should consider this: maybe Bill and Ben and Tom and Jim and Gil and whoever are simply building what they believe is the best golf course for the people who will play golf there, according to the principles and ideas that have worked for them in the past. If that sounds repetitive to you, well, so be it.
The logical extension of "break the mold" is Desmond Muirhead in Atlantic City, or wherever that course with the shark head was.
This is golf, not painting.
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Thank you Mike. You so get me. I completely mis-stutter stepped.
Also, I suggest your next course be called Billy Jack National.
Merry Christmas
I was thinking more along lines of The Buford (Pusser) ball bats in every cart ;D
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Bogey, I think I get what you're saying, and what Mike is saying, but I also think you should consider this: maybe Bill and Ben and Tom and Jim and Gil and whoever are simply building what they believe is the best golf course for the people who will play golf there, according to the principles and ideas that have worked for them in the past. If that sounds repetitive to you, well, so be it.
The logical extension of "break the mold" is Desmond Muirhead in Atlantic City, or wherever that course with the shark head was.
This is golf, not painting.
George,
I got zero problem with anything they do there...I'm just saying you can't compare for a while...
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Bogey,
Would it be fair to interpret your position as one of wanting the developers to utilize different designers as the way to change it up a bit? Like others, I see little reason, from a success standpoint, to critize the formula apart from ones own desire to want something different.
If that's the case, you, being a banker-type, could find some investors. Then you hire me to design and build something not on every menu! That would solve your issue.
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Thank you Mike. You so get me. I completely mis-stutter stepped.
Also, I suggest your next course be called Billy Jack National.
Merry Christmas
I was thinking more along lines of The Buford (Pusser) ball bats in every cart ;D
Ax handle, lad. Ax handle.
Fun fact, the actor Woody Harrilson's father is reputed to have shot Sheriff Pusser's jaw off.
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George Bernard Shaw said “Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.”
In architecture, Post Modernism was a backlash against Modernism. This movement was partially fueled by the emergence of the historical preservation movement. Society became fed up with watching old buildings being replaced with universal modern block of glass and steel. There was a strong desire to have more detail and culture in our built form.
Eventually that would give way to offshoots including Neoclassicism right through to what’s called Blobitecture. That’s where technology and software have allowed architects, such as Frank Gehry, to build just about anything they can imagine. But it keeps pushing providing us with ideas the Turning Torso by Calatrava. The advantage architecture has is the large volume of opportunities. This disadvantage golf has is how few there are.
When Minimalism came along it was met with some criticisms, eventually if found acceptance. Finally Modernism gave way to Minimalism. Once it became the dominant movement it suffered what all other movements suffer ... "the style" being extensively copied. This began to take away some of the freshness of seeing new work by the top Minimalist designers, because it just didn’t seem quite as original as before.
And here’s the thing about Sand Valley – its no longer original. The formula was used at Cabot Links … and Streamsong ... and Bandon Dunes. Nobody has any criticism for the work. The mild criticism is its working in the same style with the same designers and expecting the same reaction. Eventually, the impact won't come. For Mike ... that appears to be now.
I think what Mike is suggesting is how exciting would it be if someone took a completely different approach at Sand Valley and put something different side by side with the other courses. The comparison would be engaging ... and it just might open up some new ideas on architecture.
Shaw also said “There are two tragedies in life. One is not to get your heart's desire. The other is to get it.”
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I think we are on the gaining side of the paradox with Mike Keiser :) Thank you
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What Ian said. I'm out.
Bogey
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Agree with Ian's broader perspective, but also add this - someone really did ask if CC should just change their style for the sake of change and freshness. While I am not sure of the answer, its a valid question to any designer.
I recall seeing Fleetwood Mac. They introduced "Tusk" by recalling the record company wasn't too happy, because the formula in rock is to crank out similar style albums until sales drop. But as artists, they wanted a different sound (you might recall Tusk featured the USC marching band).
I long said I didn't want to reach the age I am now and have people say "oh, that's a Brauer course" as has happened to so many architects. Always consciously looking to change my style. IMHO, a style can be put on (nearly) any site, while still designing in principle for those who are likely to play, as its two separate issues. Obviously, we think some styles fit some sites better, a la, style gets more rugged on rugged, more refined in subdivisions, etc.
I have heard many say that CC are getting a bit too stylistically predictable, but I wonder why they should be any different than RTJ, JN, Fazio or Dye before them? They get hired to do what they did before, no? They will change when they are no longer getting the prime jobs, IMHO. Or rely on fewer commissions and stick to their guns, which they may be ready to do anyway.
Similarly, the problem with deciding whether their style still sells at SV, is that the Keiser concept, away from the ocean, may actually not be as good a business model, so cash register success may not equal design quality success.
All in all, a valid, but tricky question.
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Jeff,
That was a good analogy with music except Kieser kinda of did things different then the script. More like let's say the grateful dead who made their money touring vs enriching the record company. It was about the experience. I think if SV was his first project it would of taken him longer due to not being on the water like u said. Since he is branded it should do just fine. Plus I think he has a membership element? Many great sized markets real close to SV.
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I think what Mike is suggesting is how exciting would it be if someone took a completely different approach at Sand Valley and put something different side by side with the other courses. The comparison would be engaging ... and it just might open up some new ideas on architecture.
And all I'm asking is some sort of hint or inkling of what that difference might be. When you consider the amount of resources - land, money, not least of all time - is that an unreasonable request? Would you expect any developer or investor to just say, have at it?
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Furthermore, I'd bet a lot of money that Ben and Bill and Tom and Gil and whoever likely feel that they DO do things differently, but most of us simply don't notice it.
You (Ian) and Mike Young would probably recognize the differences, but I'm guessing the overwhelming majority of even the golf architecture obsessed posters on here would completely miss it.
Please, Mike, Mike, Ian, or anyone else who longs for something different, explain even just a tiny amount what "different" means to you in this case.
Just a hint.
Pretty please. With sugar on top.
I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I'd submit it is far more reasonable than "I'd like to see something different, something breaking the mold", but maybe that's just me...
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I think what Mike is suggesting is how exciting would it be if someone took a completely different approach at Sand Valley and put something different side by side with the other courses. The comparison would be engaging ... and it just might open up some new ideas on architecture.
And all I'm asking is some sort of hint or inkling of what that difference might be. When you consider the amount of resources - land, money, not least of all time - is that an unreasonable request? Would you expect any developer or investor to just say, have at it?
I think you all are missing something here. The model for Sand Valley isn't Bill and Ben's model -- it's Mike Keiser's model. He found them a big, open, sandy site and asked implicitly for the same sort of course that they were so successful building in Bandon and Nova Scotia and at Streamsong. He hired David Kidd for the second course, once David had demonstrated at Gamble Sands that he was willing to build exactly the same kind of course that's been part of Mike's successful formula.
I could have suggested the concept of The Loop to Mike at Sand Valley instead of at Forest Dunes, but apart from it making more sense on the flatter site, I thought the concept was more likely to appeal to Lew Thompson, because he really wanted to do something different. The question is whether Mike Keiser wants to do something really different ... or even if he should, considering how successful his formula has been. If Mike isn't ready to break the mold, then he's not going to hire an architect who wants to.
There's a commercial aspect to all of this. If you want to keep doing different things design-wise, then you're not a safe choice for many developers. It's not like the music business at all, because the capital investment is so big. It's more like making movies. And you may have noticed that the theaters are full of disappointing sequels.
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TD,
Your message can be interpreted a few ways, either pro same or pro different.......but movie makers obviously feel more comfy investing big bucks in a known commodity over a new plot or character.
The retail golfer also has a bigger investment than going to the movies, when going once per year to a nationally known resort.
What I question is whether Sand Valley will get more of the national crowd in the summer, without the draw of water? But, even if it doesn't, the buddies trip is more regional than most think, and Central Wisconsin is in the middle of the highest golf participation area of the US (MN, WI, IA, IL) so he will do fine, unless it, and WS and Erin Hills make just one too many golf resorts in WI.
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Jeff, I don't think SV will be hampered financially by its inland location. I can fly in and play same day and play and fly out same day - that's very appealing.
George, even though I signed out I feel like I owe you an answer. I point to the 7th hole at Pacific Dunes, ironically an inland hole on a course renowned and named for its spectacular ocean front setting. I think it's the best hole on the entire property and as good as any two shotter in America - i.e., it's truly gushworthy (to me). It's "something different" or a juxtaposition hole if you will. It is treed and if I recall correctly has actual fairway lines befitting a more traditional hole. It's a right hook slipped in between a series of left jabs. That makes it all the more special in my opinion - a bit of an unexpected surprise.
I can't recall "something different" at SV. That's really all I'm saying.
Mike
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Please, Mike, Mike, Ian, or anyone else who longs for something different, explain even just a tiny amount what "different" means to you in this case.
George:
How about this? I just got back from Woodhall Spa, which is renowned for its deep, gnarly bunkers, which have a different feel to them than anything I've seen in America. But they aren't flashy to the eye, like the bunkers at Sand Valley or most other modern courses. Also, Woodhall Spa isn't so wide, and it's got a lot of fairways on par-4's and 5's that are interrupted by heather and/or cross-bunkers ... kind of like the 7th at Pacific Dunes, actually :)
Anyway, that would certainly be something different, as I see things. Nevertheless, if I built it, I suspect people would just see it as more of the same, because it's sandy and whatever.
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Sometimes it's fun (though not usually edifying) to put the matter too bluntly, in much too starkly black and white terms. So here goes:
If minimalism is at least in part about utilizing a site's natural features to their (uniquely) best and maximal degree, and if the history of course architecture has taught us that there are no hard and fast rules underpinning this particular art-craft, then how can it possibly be that golf courses in several very different places end up looking so strikingly similar, and that any such clear cut and exacting 'formula' could be the reason/driving force behind the creation of great golf?
Answer: minimalism has lost its true and essential spirit/raison d'etre and hard and fast rules work just fine as long as we happen to agree with them.
I started a thread quite a while ago that was almost universally disliked, misunderstood and/or reviled: it was called "we're living in conservative times". Does anyone now better understand what I was getting at?
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Thanks Mike and Tom for the answers.
Still awaiting Mike and Ian. :)
Nevertheless, if I built it, I suspect people would just see it as more of the same, because it's sandy and whatever.
That's kinda my point.
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Just for clarity:
1. I'm not suggesting any of the architects to change - don't care whether they do or don't
2. I'm certainly not asking Mike to change - don't care if he does or does not.
3. Don't care if others copy his formula or select the same architects.
4. I think Mike H is entitled to have his opinion.
Ian
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Here's an example from my own (somewhat pitiful) t shirt business:
I do most of the designing for us, and it's boilerplate stuff - arch a name above and below and basketball, etc. But there was a brief time when we employed a friend who was between jobs, and was/is a fantastically talented guy (maybe the most talented person I've ever met, name is Mark Spaeder, google him if you need art/animation/design/web work). I had a client come in and say he wanted t's for his football team that won their local division. I told Mark black and gold on a grey t, have at it.
Mark put together this phenomenal design, way better than anything I could ever do. The guy came in to look at it. He looked, paused, said, I like where you're going... Can you delete the crown? Center the words over a football? Change the text to such and such?
When all was said and done, the shirt went from being unique and original to being a grey t shirt with a name arched over a football and "Championship Season" underneath.
I made a conscious decision that day to never offer anyone anything unusual unless they specifically requested it. I'm not suggesting for a moment that that is what Bill and Ben and Tom and Gil and whoever are doing. I believe they are simply building the best possible course given the land they have, utilizing their principles combined with experience. But I think the most golf critics don't understand the distinction, not can they see the differences in the final product.
My apologies if that comes across harsh, it is not intended as such. Just reality.
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Sometimes it's fun (though not usually edifying) to put the matter too bluntly, in much too starkly black and white terms. So here goes:
If minimalism is at least in part about utilizing a site's natural features to their (uniquely) best and maximal degree, and if the history of course architecture has taught us that there are no hard and fast rules underpinning this particular art-craft, then how can it possibly be that golf courses in several very different places end up looking so strikingly similar, and that any such clear cut and exacting 'formula' could be the reason/driving force behind the creation of great golf?
Answer: minimalism has lost its true and essential spirit/raison d'etre and hard and fast rules work just fine as long as we happen to agree with them.
I started a thread quite a while ago that was almost universally disliked, misunderstood and/or reviled: it was called "we're living in conservative times". Does anyone now better understand what I was getting at?
Peter, is it possible that the nature of the sites are similar so the end result looks similar? I've only seen a handful of the great moderns, but if minimalism is applied on sites that are similar it would make sense that the courses would have a common look. I suppose a test of this would be applying minimalism to a different (i.e non sandy) site and seeing if it looks the same.
Many of the minimalist architects have built on non-sandy sites, so I guess the question is do they look alike? I would say they do have a lot in common and the minimalism look comes from partly from the land and partly from the style of the architect. Perhaps that is a long way of saying that I think I agree with you.
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I'm not really concerned whether anyone changes or not. I sort of think all of this stuff evolves and may be changing even when we don't notice it at the time. I do think some very good strategic and dramatic design could be done if we were not so in love with bunkers. If I had any changing to do it would be along those lines. It might not photograph as well and the writers might not be able to easily hype it but it could be a change. Bunkers are overrated and costly both initially and to maintain.
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I made a conscious decision that day to never offer anyone anything unusual unless they specifically requested it. I'm not suggesting for a moment that that is what Bill and Ben and Tom and Gil and whoever are doing. I believe they are simply building the best possible course given the land they have, utilizing their principles combined with experience. But I think the most golf critics don't understand the distinction, not can they see the differences in the final product.
George: Well stated. And like you do, we in golf design do have customers / clients, and it behooves us to be sure they're okay with it when we start building something that might be different than what they expect.
I like to have the client around a lot for the first 4-5 holes of construction, so he can see what we're up to and have a chance to weigh in if he's not comfortable with it. I can't remember the last time a client was really not okay with what we were doing -- perhaps that's a sign that I'm not taking enough chances, but I think I take more than most designers do.
The thing I've been thinking about for the last few years is that there are not many architects in position to really take chances. Many are afraid that one well-publicized mistake could be their last new project ever. I'm one of the few* that's in position to be daring, and I want to make the most of that ... but I just have to find some more clients who want to go there, too, and it's proving harder than I imagined it would be.
* Ironically, one of the only other architects I know who thinks this way is Jack Nicklaus. He has done so many courses that I think he's a bit bored with the same old thing, and he's made plenty of attempts to try something really different.
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Just for clarity:
1. I'm not suggesting any of the architects to change - don't care whether they do or don't
2. I'm certainly not asking Mike to change - don't care if he does or does not.
3. Don't care if others copy his formula or select the same architects.
4. I think Mike H is entitled to have his opinion.
Ian
Ian, you are one of my all time favorite posters on here, so it pains me a bit to say, I think you completely missed my point(s). I'm not saying Mike doesn't have a right to an opinion, nor am I saying you shouldn't seek variety. I'm simply asking for some sort of clue as to what you might see as different on any given site.
I think different exists even where most don't see it. Going back to my consistent usage of Oakmont (my apologies, it's one of the few courses I know that others know as well), I see a downhill approach to a green falling away on a long-ish 1st hole, a short but not really driveable par 4 with a diabolical green 2nd, a hilltop, almost crownlike green on a fairly long par 4 3rd, etc. Most people just see narrow fairways, thick rough, deep bunkers, and the fastest greens in the world. And I'm not saying either view is right or wrong, just different.
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I'm not really concerned whether anyone changes or not. I sort of think all of this stuff evolves and may be changing even when we don't notice it at the time. I do think some very good strategic and dramatic design could be done if we were not so in love with bunkers. If I had any changing to do it would be along those lines. It might not photograph as well and the writers might not be able to easily hype it but it could be a change. Bunkers are overrated and costly both initially and to maintain.
Good answer, thanks.
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The thread didn't start out as a topic on design, but it sure has developed into an interesting and educational thread. Thanks.
I think often of how to mix it up, so to speak, but the site really does dictate so many aspects of the design, it's tough to have an idea without a site.
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George,
Pete Dye said if he was going to make a name for himself in this business, he should just do the opposite of whatever Trent Jones was doing. There's no point in trying to one up Bill or Tom, because: a) you're unlikely to and b) even if you do a good job, you'll be seen as ripping off their ideas by many
So do the opposite - go Costanza - or at least do something clearly different.
Style is a great starting point - but so is scale.
Bunker patterns are another - or are their more non bunker options available now?
You could even be far more audacious with what you build - there's always Maximalism - whether Lido or Yale as a borrow
I'm stunned nobody hasn't gone super-neoclassical and built something right out of the late 1800's
One of my greatest golfing experiences was Royal North Devon - talk about picking your own path ...
But as it has been mentioned before, you can't preplan any of this because in the end the site will tell you what to do.
There are always options ... that's why we visit so many places to find ideas ... so can put our own unique spin on things when given that opportunity. What there isn't is opportunities ...
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But that's just the point, Ian: the site ISN'T telling C&C what to do anymore, the FORMULA is...or so it seems.
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But that's just the point, Ian: the site ISN'T telling C&C what to do anymore, the FORMULA is...or so it seems.
And what makes you say that?
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Peter,
I guess I see it differently than you.
I think owner and architect are on the same page.
It's one of golf's great collaborations.
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Ian, George - yes, just my opinion. I would feel foolish to pretend that my opinion is of equal worth/value to those of the professionals on this board, or even to those of the many well-travelled golfers here. But it would be a fake modesty and false humility to pretend that I don't believe what my eyes are telling me, or that I don't think the formula (which DMK has so clearly described) is not a dominate driver of the final product.
Best wishes to you both
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Peter,
Opinions are good.
My choice of words should have been more passive ... so I changed it.
Happy holidays to you and your family.
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Peter:
Does it change things if you think of the formula driving where they decide to build their courses?
Once you commit to a certain type of land, hasn't the "style" already been dictated?
Sven
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But that's just the point, Ian: the site ISN'T telling C&C what to do anymore, the FORMULA is...or so it seems.
I don't agree with this at all. The way I've always explained Coore and Crenshaw's style to those unfamiliar with their work is that, for better or worse, they take exactly what the site gives. I've always suspected that this feeling had to do with Bill Coore's routing style and the idea that he routes by walking the property, almost blindly, letting the land lead him down paths that feel intuitive until eventually a vision of the routing comes into his uniquely gifted mind. I've probably completely romanticized the actual process he follows, but that's basically how I've always interpreted it. No one builds courses where the walk feels more intuitive, or where the holes fit the land they're on quite as well as Coore and Crenshaw. The downside is that sometimes the most intuitive routing produces long runs of holes that feel just a bit too repetitious, but the walk always feels like it explores the property in just the right way.
Going back to my friend Mike Hendren's post that really got this thread rolling after 10 or so pages, this is almost the opposite of the feeling that I get at Lawsonia. The routing there feels a lot less "natural" to me, starting with the first tee shot, then the odd way that the 2nd, 3rd, 7th, and 8th holes seem to burrow as far into the corners of the property as possible before reversing course like a Roomba working its way around the corners of a room, or the way the 11th just juts out almost randomly into the middle of a field before the hairpin turn that takes us back out 13 before we start doing the Roomba thing again as 15 and 16 almost belligerently insist on turning right and smashing up against the treeline instead of just taking the obvious path in front of them. If Lawsonia was still a dairy farm instead of a golf course, the cows would never walk the property quite the way that Langford routed it. And while holes like 2, 9, 10, 11, 13, and 16-18 seem to fit the land they're on like a glove in almost the way a C&C hole does, holes like 1, 6, 7, 12, and 15 seem to totally ignore the conventions of what an architect would intuitively build on the land they occupy. And maybe that sounds like a bad thing, but it's one of my favorite things about the course. It has a delightful audacity and, while not particularly difficult, it presents an awful lot of uncomfortable shots in part because it does the unexpected or unintuitive so frequently. It's not dissimilar to Crystal Downs in that way.
I haven't played Sand Valley, but I have admired the intuitiveness of Coore and Crenshaw's work while also wishing it wasn't always quite so perfectly married to that intuitiveness. I like to think maybe I understand some of what Mike might have been getting at originally, but then again, it's also possible that I'm just feeling the effects of the season of Love Actually, eggnog, and "Son, step away from the keyboard" again.
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Ian - yours is a generous spirit. Thanks.
Sven - that's a terrific question. It seems reasonable to answer "yes, the land does dictate the style". But then I think of the wide variety of courses (in terms of playability) and styles (in terms of aesthetics) that were all built on linksland/sandy soil in GB&I, and I'm not sure anymore. Carnoustie is not St Andrews nor is Muirfield like Dornoch. I think the trouble with the 'formula' is that it seems to be dictating not only a certain style but also a certain *kind* of golf course.
That of course is no crime; but it does seem worth pointing out ie raising for discussion on occasion.
Best
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But that's just the point, Ian: the site ISN'T telling C&C what to do anymore, the FORMULA is...or so it seems.
And what makes you say that?
George
I think because so many courses from these top stables look the same....there must be a formula in play. Pietro is definitely on to something, but in the end it may not be all that important if folks are generally happy and convinced things are better than the 80s.
I am not saying its a good or bad thing, but I know I would prefer to see something a bit different. P Dye was able to do this on more than one occasion and he seems to have done quite well in the business. That said, I really do think Doak would and will do some stuff which stands apart from his well known work....The Loop is evidence of this. I know he has talked about wanting to do some courses with very few bunkers, even no bunkers. The will is there on the part of some designers, but they must all earn a crust.
Ciao
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If all of these "formula" courses, however different or not in style they may be, are closer to the carnousties, muirfields and dornochs than the courses that were built leading up to this age, I'm fine with it.
That being said, I'm not so sure I'm sold on the similarity of what we're seeing built. Maybe they all look the same because there's no housing and the water feature is no longer so omnipresent. But to my eye, the Warren Course is not Sand Hills which is not Lost Farms. And when we start throwing in other designers and other business models (like an Angels Crossing, Mystic Hills, bandon Crossings or Shepherds Crook), there seems to be enough spice in the mix for anyone's tastes.
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But that's just the point, Ian: the site ISN'T telling C&C what to do anymore, the FORMULA is...or so it seems.
I don't agree with this at all. The way I've always explained Coore and Crenshaw's style to those unfamiliar with their work is that, for better or worse, they take exactly what the site gives. I've always suspected that this feeling had to do with Bill Coore's routing style and the idea that he routes by walking the property, almost blindly, letting the land lead him down paths that feel intuitive until eventually a vision of the routing comes into his uniquely gifted mind. I've probably completely romanticized the actual process he follows, but that's basically how I've always interpreted it. No one builds courses where the walk feels more intuitive, or where the holes fit the land they're on quite as well as Coore and Crenshaw. The downside is that sometimes the most intuitive routing produces long runs of holes that feel just a bit too repetitious, but the walk always feels like it explores the property in just the right way.
Going back to my friend Mike Hendren's post that really got this thread rolling after 10 or so pages, this is almost the opposite of the feeling that I get at Lawsonia. The routing there feels a lot less "natural" to me, starting with the first tee shot, then the odd way that the 2nd, 3rd, 7th, and 8th holes seem to burrow as far into the corners of the property as possible before reversing course like a Roomba working its way around the corners of a room, or the way the 11th just juts out almost randomly into the middle of a field before the hairpin turn that takes us back out 13 before we start doing the Roomba thing again as 15 and 16 almost belligerently insist on turning right and smashing up against the treeline instead of just taking the obvious path in front of them. If Lawsonia was still a dairy farm instead of a golf course, the cows would never walk the property quite the way that Langford routed it. And while holes like 2, 9, 10, 11, 13, and 16-18 seem to fit the land they're on like a glove in almost the way a C&C hole does, holes like 1, 6, 7, 12, and 15 seem to totally ignore the conventions of what an architect would intuitively build on the land they occupy. And maybe that sounds like a bad thing, but it's one of my favorite things about the course. It has a delightful audacity and, while not particularly difficult, it presents an awful lot of uncomfortable shots in part because it does the unexpected or unintuitive so frequently. It's not dissimilar to Crystal Downs in that way.
I haven't played Sand Valley, but I have admired the intuitiveness of Coore and Crenshaw's work while also wishing it wasn't always quite so perfectly married to that intuitiveness. I like to think maybe I understand some of what Mike might have been getting at originally, but then again, it's also possible that I'm just feeling the effects of the season of Love Actually, eggnog, and "Son, step away from the keyboard" again.
Helluva post, though I have mixed feelings about the inclusion of Love Actually.
:)
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Not sure the site entirely tells Bill and Ben what to do....certainly, the site together with their preferences develops the routing, although other gca's would probably route differently, due to say, less emphasis on walking, or less tolerance for quirky holes.
On the other hand, CC COULD choose to do RTJ or someone else bunkers as a tribute, well after the routing, rather than their now typical jagged edge bunkers. Can you imagine Robert Bruce Harris bunkers on a CC golf course? Of course not, but no technical reason it couldn't happen.
And, it goes back to that creative vs. commercial tension....they (and Mike K) know the jagged edges work to draw customers whereas they don't know if RBH bunkers would (probably have evidence that they wouldn't.....) The safe choice is to keep with the jagged edge bunkers.
That is probably why I can't think of a situation where an established architect has been the author of "the next big thing" although if anyone could point out an example, this would be the group! It takes a young'un who wants to prove himself different than an old'un who wants to maintain his track record.
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[quote author=Jeff_Brauer link=topic=57622.msg1523307#msg1523307 date=1482786144
That is probably why I can't think of a situation where an established architect has been the author of "the next big thing" although if anyone could point out an example, this would be the group! It takes a young'un who wants to prove himself different than an old'un who wants to maintain his track record.
The key to doing something new is having one of the big magazines behind it...If Golf Digest gets behind a guy and tells the devloper he will get "Best New" then a developer can feel comfortable doing something different. The closest thing I have seen to really different in the last 20 years has been Jim Engh...it's not me but the guy has done one helluva job marketing his product and people must like it...
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Mike,
I see a lot of Dick Nugent influence in Jim's work, and maybe some came from his days at IMG or wherever it was he was the in house designer. But, all those combinations did make for a bold new style when he went out on his own, I agree. Dick was big and bold, but Jim added the "muscle bunker" style.
To be honest, I have been friends with Ron Whitten and other golf writers for years, and never once would I seek out (or expect) any kind of pre-approval of my design style for a new course. Or any sort of implied guarantee a course would make the list, much less win. Would be interested if we have evidence that it happened for someone like Faz, Rees, or any architect who has won one of their awards. I haven't heard if it has, although there is always the big schmooze for those awards, of course.
The closest was when Ron played Quarry on the grand opening, was impressed, and assured me that he would make an effort to get panelists to such an out of the way place, because he felt it would do well. That was more for the integrity of their process than my benefit, but I did benefit!
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Mike,
I see a lot of Dick Nugent influence in Jim's work, and maybe some came from his days at IMG or wherever it was he was the in house designer. But, all those combinations did make for a bold new style when he went out on his own, I agree. Dick was big and bold, but Jim added the "muscle bunker" style.
To be honest, I have been friends with Ron Whitten and other golf writers for years, and never once would I seek out (or expect) any kind of pre-approval of my design style for a new course. Or any sort of implied guarantee a course would make the list, much less win. Would be interested if we have evidence that it happened for someone like Faz, Rees, or any architect who has won one of their awards. I haven't heard if it has, although there is always the big schmooze for those awards, of course.
The closest was when Ron played Quarry on the grand opening, was impressed, and assured me that he would make an effort to get panelists to such an out of the way place, because he felt it would do well. That was more for the integrity of their process than my benefit, but I did benefit!
Jeff,
I never said you would seek such....doubt you will ever find proof but Sh*t happens....and I don't think I ever mentioned an individual....There is a lot on the line with big RE developments...you got to lock up what you can and magazines are easy....cheers.
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Yup, all those catch basins and bird baths in greens sure are different! ;)
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Perhaps this thread heralds the end of the "honeymoon period" of Minimalist golf course architecture. A "seven year itch" type of thing, if you will.
Me, I don't believe we're anywhere near a point in the playing-out of this GCA philosophy such that we need to get really exercised about seeking out a new one just for the sake of it. To the extent it may seem that way given the general rota of courses most often discussed here, it behooves us to remember that the total number of courses like this is still a long way from representing even a significant minority of all golf courses. It seems that even those who seem a bit weary of the alleged emerging sameness of C&C courses would agree that that sameness is better than the sameness that ruled GCA for much of the latter half of the 20th century.
It's not that I reject the efforts of mold-breakers - Jim Engh's Creek Club at Reynolds Lake Oconee in GA was the most fascinating golf course I saw in 2016 - it's just that if you're going to go in a new direction, you'd better come out guns a-blazin'. And the nature of truly visionary creative work is that it is very, very, very rare.
We should welcome minimalist GCA as a "new normal" and hope it stays around for a good long while, IMHO.
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Lots of talk about doing something "new" and "off formula". Would someone please enlighten me as to when Ross, Raynor, MacKenzie, etc altered their style and started doing something new? Half the time when you're on one of their courses and it feels completely different, it ends up actually not being their course. It seems to me that the better modern architects have gone off formula far more often than the heralded architects of yesteryear.
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It seems to me that the better modern architects have gone off formula far more often than the heralded architects of yesteryear.
Probably so. If the old-timers went off formula it was probably because the construction foreman did so, and they weren't likely to do so if they wanted to build another course for the same architect after that!
We in the modern era, making more visits to see our projects under construction, are probably more likely to get bored with what we've been doing and try something different.
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When Ross got to Pinehurst they were on sand greens by the end, well you know what #2 evolved into.
Everything that Mac and Raynor did to essentially creat or better yet "build" golf hadn't been done before.
You really don't think they were doing anything different?
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If I am not mistaken, Old McDonald was pretty innovative, right? Yes, it had wide fairways and big greens, but I don't see much wrong with one finding their tee shot and not spending 20 minutes a round searching for golf balls in tall grass.
Now Mr. Keiser starts building a multi course resort in Wisconsin and we get upset that it is a big golf course that was built on a big site with big contours. Could it be that course 3,4, or 5 may be something very different? Could we take a deep breath and wait for course 1 to get a full season in the books until we start picking apart why it wasn't what you wished it could be? That is all I ask.
George, to answer your question, no, I do not think the guys at the top are all that different, but they have their quirks. For example, if you leave a pile of trash sitting in the fairway when Mr. Coore walks around on a site visit, chances are it will turn into a golf course feature of some sort. The final products are similar and many of the same people have worked on each others courses. You are not getting the answer you want because it is not that obvious and sexy and frankly, .000001% of golfers would ever notice the difference. And that is OK. Lets just enjoy the courses that are being built because the truth is, they are not being built near us, and most of them are private.
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So, is the 2nd course reallynamed "Mammoth Dunes??"
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They must have settled on that name now, as its being used on their website. Definitely some unique logo possibilities with that name.
So, is the 2nd course reallynamed "Mammoth Dunes??"
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Me? I would have gone with "Bodacious Dunes."
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Before y'all go too far down the "they looked up 'large' in the thesaurus" joke road, I suspect that the name is a reference to the fact that Sand Valley is located immediately west of what was a massive glacier that covered much of Wisconsin.
There is a trail that runs through the entire state along the boundary line of that glacier called the Ice Age Trail (http://www.iceagetrail.org/ice-age-trail/ (http://www.iceagetrail.org/ice-age-trail/)). Both Michael and Craig are enthusiasts of that trail, and the rich natural history that it represents, so my assumption is that the name is an homage to the natural history of the site.
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P.S. In case you haven't heard about it, KemperSports is running an opening-day giveaway that is pretty neat.
https://kemperclub.com/contests/sand-valley-opening-day-experience/ (https://kemperclub.com/contests/sand-valley-opening-day-experience/)
You gotta be in it to win it.
Also, throwing a link to Morgan's Mammoth Dunes preview thread in here as a bread crumb for folks to follow later -> http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64124.0.html
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Good insight Jason. I like the tie-in.
(http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/morganclawson/Ice%20Age%20Trail%20Logo_zpsn4npwbms.jpg) (http://s967.photobucket.com/user/morganclawson/media/Ice%20Age%20Trail%20Logo_zpsn4npwbms.jpg.html)
Before y'all go too far down the "they looked up 'large' in the thesaurus" joke road, I suspect that the name is a reference to the fact that Sand Valley is located immediately west of what was a massive glacier that covered much of Wisconsin.
There is a trail that runs through the entire state along the boundary line of that glacier called the Ice Age Trail (http://www.iceagetrail.org/ice-age-trail/ (http://www.iceagetrail.org/ice-age-trail/)). Both Michael and Craig are enthusiasts of that trail, and the rich natural history that it represents, so my assumption is that the name is an homage to the natural history of the site.
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A long out-take from the Madison WI paper (bias alert -- the writer is a friend of mine) on the prospects and challenges that Sand Valley represents for the nearby rural communities in central Wisconsin:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/business/sand-golf-and-hopes-for-an-economic-boom-in-central/article_5acf774b-0ad5-5737-a2b1-24d0dd29efb5.html
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Well-reported story. How long does it take to build a big tank for jet fuel? Sound like the airport needs it yesterday.
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Anyone have a guess about the % of play at Bandon Dunes Resort that comes from people flying directly into Bandon airport? Paging Sven...
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A well done article. I'm looking forward to the Official Opening May 2nd. It's been interesting to see the site evolve from wall to wall trees to what it is today. There is great variety in the land used by Course 2 and the other land as yet untapped. Driving in to the property after miles and miles of flat terrain it's hard to believe what you see and there is really nothing else like it in the MW.
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Sand Valley opened yesterday under extremely cold and windy conditions.
Did anyone attend?
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Gary,
It was a proper spring day in the upper Midwest! Actually, it was a bit brisk up at Craig's Porch and Messers Coore and Crenshaw deserve credit for braving the elements and greeting the inaugural guests. Vaughn Halyard, Jason Way, Peter Korbakes, Dan Moore, and many others were there. The course looks and plays great, and I've enjoyed each successive round more than the prior. The staff was wonderfully welcoming and cheerful. The pulled pork/beef taco/brat slider trio is the best $4.50 lunch you'll ever enjoy. We played 72 holes over three days and I finished the 72nd hole with the same ball that I used on the first. Michael and Chris Keiser, Glen Murray, Josh Lesnik, C&C, and the local Adams County citizens and administrators all deserve a hearty round of applause for bringing Craig Haltom's vision to fruition. A job exceptionally well done.
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Anyone have a guess about the % of play at Bandon Dunes Resort that comes from people flying directly into Bandon airport? Paging Sven...
If you're talking about commercial flights, I would think a pretty low %, since there are fewer flights/day than there are courses, and the planes are not big.
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Anyone have a guess about the % of play at Bandon Dunes Resort that comes from people flying directly into Bandon airport? Paging Sven...
If you're talking about commercial flights, I would think a pretty low %, since there are fewer flights/day than there are courses, and the planes are not big.
Two rules of thumb that developers and all who serve high-end markets eventually learn...there are not near as many trust-funders on the ground nor tail numbers in the sky as you want to believe.
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New York Times article about SV:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/travel/sand-valley-wisconsin-golfing-destination-homage.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/travel/sand-valley-wisconsin-golfing-destination-homage.html)
Of note...
- Six-hole loop of DMK’s Mammoth Dunes is expected to open for preview play this summer, and the full 18 holes might be ready as early as September.
-[/size] C[/size]oore and Crenshaw are also designing a short par-3 course, which should be ready in 2018.
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I will echo what Charley had to say. It was 42 degrees with a 20-25 mph wind. Driving to the course there were puddles alongside the road and lakes in the fields from several days of heavy rains that finally ended that morning with a few final sputters. The first tee is located on the volcano, a high dune affording great views of the surrounding landscape. I first stood there with Craig Haltom and Young Mike Keiser on April 7, 2014 when the site was wall to wall trees. I have a couple of photos from that date standing on the high dune that looking down what are now the first and tenth fairways. Truly a remarkable transformation with much much more to come. Kudos to Craig and Mike and the entire crew and local community.
Sounds like a miserable day to play but everyone in my group had a blast. The course was not only dry but fast and firm and the greens were rolling true. The width and wind made it so much fun to play requiring you to use your imagination to create shots to counter the wind. One of the neatest things about the Coore Crenshaw course is the way the routing converges at various points as the holes wind through different sectors of the landscape.
I can't wait to see the entire McKlay Kidd Course as it is located on a slightly more rambunctious part of the property.
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Did they plant more trees since last fall? Like along the entrance road? Thought I saw them along the left part of #7 as well...
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via an email from SV:
-- Six holes of the highly-anticipated Mammoth Dunes course will open to lodging guest preview play launching on June 12th. Beginning and ending at the Clubhouse, guests may preview the loop of holes 1, 2, 15, 16, 17, and 18.
---- The Clubhouse will be the heart of the resort and is opening ahead of schedule on June 1st.
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Golfweek review of Sand Valley:
http://golfweek.com/2017/05/17/sand-valley-golf-resort-heathland-in-the-heartland-hideaway/ (http://golfweek.com/2017/05/17/sand-valley-golf-resort-heathland-in-the-heartland-hideaway/)
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What is the timeline for courses 3 and 4?
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Word on the street is that the architect is close to being officially picked. From what I heard its between Hanse and Devries.
Anyone hearing anything else?
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Word on the street is that the architect is close to being officially picked. From what I heard its between Hanse and Devries.
Anyone hearing anything else?
I heard the third HAS been picked....
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Word on the street is that the architect is close to being officially picked. From what I heard its between Hanse and Devries.
Anyone hearing anything else?
I heard the third HAS been picked....
And...
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Anyone one have the current Vegas line on Tom Doak? ;D
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I brought this topic up with some of the SV management when I was there a few weeks ago.
They gave me the impression that a decision on the 3rd course was not imminent.
At this point they are working on quite a few things:
*final touches and grow-in of Mammoth
*grow-in of short course
*grow-in of driving range and practice area
*expansion of club house - new kitchen and dining room
*building walking trails
*restoring non golf areas to natural habitat
My guess is that they will make a call on the third course based on the number of advance bookings they get during the off season.
There certainly seems to be a large number of architects in play. And part of the decision has to be the availability of those architects.
One thing I'm certain of: the management team is very thoughtful and experienced and spends a lot of time on their decision making. The execution of everything from the courses to the bratwurst sliders is impressive.