Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on March 27, 2012, 05:48:13 PM
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most likely the narrowing of fairways that's taken place over the last 60 years.
The original and perhaps primary culprit is probably automated irrigation systems introduced in the 50's and 60's.
The more recent culprit is probably the attempts to defend par.
One of the great eye openers for me was my visit and play of Wild Horse in 2005.
On one of the par 5's they had a great centerline bunker complex, one that could only be accomodated by wide fairways.
But, wide fairways have been shrunk over the last 60 years for a variety of reasons.
The recent introduction of a centerline bunker on # 3 at Hidden Creek, while small, physically, is huge mentally and strategically.
Width allows the architect to do so much more in the fairways.
If the trend to eliminate flanking trees and expand fairways takes hold, will centerline bunker complexes be far behind ?
What are some of the best centerline bunker complexes you've PLAYED ?
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Perception of fairness is also an issue. Joe Q Public doesn't like a drive right down the middle to end up in one.
I love them and wish there were more of them.
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Makes sense to me. I have experienced the reverse problem on some courses in recent years - wide fairways with nothing to create interest off the tee. Centerline bunkers address that issue.
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Pat,
IMO one of the worst features in golf is the centreline bunker that doesn't have sufficient width around it. It seems that some architect see that they are a trend and build them without really getting what makes them work.
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Pat,
Good news about the 3rd at Hidden Creek...I'm anxious to see it. Is it on the tee shot or second?
The 16th hole at Applebrook has an incredibly vexing (to my feeble mind anyway...) bunker in the layup area and it should be the prototype for the concept of putting a bunker where you think the best place to play the hole from would be. I've played the hole 8 or 9 times and been in or right near this buner about 7 times. It's only 6 feet across and has a few more feet of rough around it on an 80 yard wide fairway...mindboggling!
I would think figuring out how to maintain fairway turf less expensively with comparable results in playability will be the key to gaining more fairway height width on a golf course (cutting down trees are a different issue in my opinion). Fairway height width is primarily what's needed to add a bunker in the middle of it.
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Pat
I think the biggest impediment to centreline bunkers is golfers don't seem to care for them.
I really like Harlech's centreline bunkers on the 17th.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HARLECH/100_3355.jpg?t=1242558119)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HARLECH/100_3356.jpg?t=1242558164)
Lederach has a plethora of good centreline bunkers.
Stranahan Course - #12 - centreline and hidden.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PLAYERS%20CLUB%20Stranahan%20Course/020.jpg?t=1310334324)
I spose Hell Bunker has to be mentioned, but there isn't fairway around the bunker.
The 12th at Castle Course has very good cl bunker.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Castle%20Course/301.jpg?t=1320143712)
The bunker complex, Stroke and a few others on TOC's 12th. #13 has Coffin's & Nick's!
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/THE%20OLD%20COURSE/415.jpg)
Ciao
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Big fan of the centerline on #1 Kingsley. A great, intimidating opening tee shot to start the round.
Photos from Tim Burke's epic course photo tour:
The view from the clubhouse
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king1fromclubhouse.jpg)
A view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/1Tee2.jpg)
Another view from the tee widescreen style
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king1teews.jpg)
If your tee shot creeps back down the fairway you may be left with this intimidating second shot over the mini-mountain
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/1Fairway.jpg)
Source thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37381.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37381.0.html)
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The 10th at Old MacDonald.
The 3rd and the 6th at Bandon Trails.
The 2nd, 3rd and 12th at Pac Dunes.
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Talking Stick North has beauties: #4 with room both sides and over, #5, small pot dead center, and #12, sandy wash in the middle with dangerous small fairway left by OOB and huge fairway right with dangerous approach toward that OOB.
#5 Friars Head, short par 4 with lots of room both sides, either side okay depending on pin location.
Cuscowilla #5, another short 4 laid out like #12 TSN.
The common denominator? All by Coore and Crenshaw and all loosely modeled on #16 on the Old Course with the Principal's Nose the central hazard.
The irony? That the Links Trust has grown thick rough left of the PN!
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There is one on the Red Course at Bethpage that I have always disliked. I think the width on either side is a contributing factor to my thoughts.
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The 12th at Kingston Heath is a good use of the centreline bunkers. Wide right section gives a longer route home, while the narrower left section shortens the trip, but brings into play all the trouble down the left as you get closer to the hole.
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Hell
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Prairie Club- Dunes Course
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Patrick - I agree that it's likely that we'll continue to see more centerline bunkers as the influence of C&C, Tom Doak, Lester George, and others with a similar bent continues to grow.
Ballyhack on multiple holes
Greenbrier Old White #12
Bandon Dunes - I seem to remember them on all of the courses
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Pat,
Good news about the 3rd at Hidden Creek...I'm anxious to see it. Is it on the tee shot or second?
The second shot.
While there's ample width on both sides of the bunker, but, the large pit to the right is intimidating and the woods on the left is also disturbing to the golfer.
It's small size makes it more difficult to gage, but, with all of the rangefinders and GPS it's distance can be determined.
Still, it gets into the golfer's head and he can't ignore it.
The 16th hole at Applebrook has an incredibly vexing (to my feeble mind anyway...) bunker in the layup area and it should be the prototype for the concept of putting a bunker where you think the best place to play the hole from would be. I've played the hole 8 or 9 times and been in or right near this buner about 7 times. It's only 6 feet across and has a few more feet of rough around it on an 80 yard wide fairway...mindboggling!
I liken those features to an attractive nuisance where the golfer is drawn to them like a moth to the flame.
I would think figuring out how to maintain fairway turf less expensively with comparable results in playability will be the key to gaining more fairway height width on a golf course (cutting down trees are a different issue in my opinion). Fairway height width is primarily what's needed to add a bunker in the middle of it.
A, if not "the" major impediment to restoring width to fairways may be the cost to alter the irrigation system.
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Great thread, Pat.
Most truly great courses have central hazards. It's that simple. If you walk off a course and were never asked whether to hit right, left, short or try to carry SOMETHING, it probably wasn't very good.
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Do golfers really dislike centerline bunkers ? I have played with plenty of non GCA types and have never heard a complaint about a visible centerline bunker. I have heard plenty of complaints about blind ones.
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The recent introduction of a centerline bunker on # 3 at Hidden Creek, while small, physically, is huge mentally and strategically.
Pat,
The bunker was added in 2007 - five years ago. I won't make any old age jokes.
I really liked the centre line bunkers on 2 and 8 at Hidden Creek as well. all of them really sat well in the landforms that the golfer played over.
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Patrick,
I believe the impediment to centreline bunkers is ................
..... in the single-minded minds of some single-handicap golfers.
Centreline Bunkers are the ultimate „Risk and Reward“ hazards.
If “Risk and Reward” is a strategic principle then there should be more Centreline Bunkers.
Some single-handicap golfers who play my courses complain my Centreline Bunkers are “bad design”.
I often hear “I hit the perfect Drive and it ended it up in a bunker - that' wrong”
My usual reply is “Yes you're right that you're wrong, because a Drive that goes into a bunker can't be perfect - your Drive was either an errant shot or misjudgment– don’t blame the design”
However some still single-mindedly believe they have the rights to perfect lies in their own personal landing zone - so they can take full advantage of their long Drives for a better chance of par - and avoid the fear of bogey that may threaten their single handicap.
Golf Course Designers, that hear this complaint too often, will tend to adjust their designs and avoid Centreline Bunkers, to avoid criticism from the leading golfers.
Personally I love the 12th and 16th Holes at the Old Course St.Andrews - great examples of Centreline Bunkers
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Patrick,
I believe the impediment to centreline bunkers is ................
..... in the single-minded minds of some single-handicap golfers.
Centreline Bunkers are the ultimate „Risk and Reward“ hazards.
If “Risk and Reward” is a strategic principle then there should be more Centreline Bunkers.
Some single-handicap golfers who play my courses complain my Centreline Bunkers are “bad design”.
I often hear “I hit the perfect Drive and it ended it up in a bunker - that' wrong”
My usual reply is “Yes you're right that you're wrong, because a Drive that goes into a bunker can't be perfect - your Drive was either an errant shot or misjudgment– don’t blame the design”
However some still single-mindedly believe they have the rights to perfect lies in their own personal landing zone - so they can take full advantage of their long Drives for a better chance of par - and avoid the fear of bogey that may threaten their single handicap.
Golf Course Designers, that hear this complaint too often, will tend to adjust their designs and avoid Centreline Bunkers, to avoid criticism from the leading golfers.
Personally I love the 12th and 16th Holes at the Old Course St.Andrews - great examples of Centreline Bunkers
Its lovely to think The Principal's Nose is the centre piece of a handsome face, but a few years ago the 16th lost a bout and suffered a broken nose. Said nose is now decidedly bent to the left, adjacent to a bushy sideburn. Don't ask ow I know.
Ciao
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Good one, Pat.
IMO, the main "impediment" to CBs is the unwillingness of club managers or members to embrace the fact that maybe on some holes the best line of attack from the tee for the great majority of players (i.e. those who can carry the drive regularly <200 yards) is to hit the ball right or left of the "center."
Rich
PS--belated happy birthday!
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:D ;) :)
They are way cool! Love them. The difficulty can be in draining them properly, particularly if you aren't interested in piping them. Of course , some here have more experience with that than others.
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The impediment to centreline bunkers today, I believe, must be placed clearly at the feet or wheels of modern golfers, club/club owners and the attitude to the modern game. In other words, nothing must stand in the way of stopping the long aerial game, of the ultimate aim of the achieving a low score by whatever means.
It seems to matter not at bit as to what the cost is to the game or its great courses let alone to the individual him/herself. The very idea of playing the game is no longer the reason for playing golf, that of thinking and walking. Alas it all centres upon making it easy, forcing rule changes to allow the uncommitted to water down the game. Seemingly proving their unfit nature, be it physical or mental to really be able to play in the first place.
Centreline bunkers are a major player in defending against the long shot and can re-introduce THINKING back into the game of some players (well perhaps).
They are a key weapon in the designer’s arsenal, alas apparently not used for fear of upsetting the modern weak and uncommitted player who always seems to be looking for the easy options (perhaps for the fear of not being really up to the challenge of playing real golf).
Why do we always forget that golf is meant to be a challenge from start to finish, why do some many want to weaken it to no more than a walk ride in the park.
Thank God I am not alone in loving these great equalisers in the fight for the game of golf
Melvyn
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Sebonack #9 also has a big bunker int he middle of the fairway. Even Jack Nicklaus (with Tom Doak) is getting into the act.
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11th at Kingston Heath
3rd at Castle Stuart
9th at North Berwick
6th Carnoustie - Hogan's Alley
The Principal's Nose should be the best of the lot.
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Here`s a good one at White Manor # 15
(http://www.whitemanorcc.com/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=2019662)
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Paramount #5
(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff413/bchapin02/Paramount%20CC/Paramount_5T.jpg)
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Paramount #5
(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff413/bchapin02/Paramount%20CC/Paramount_5T.jpg)
Brian-That is a great one at Paramount. Jim Urbina`s work shines.
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Here`s a good one at White Manor # 15
(http://www.whitemanorcc.com/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=2019662)
Tim, do you really think that's a good one? Does anybody ever go left on purpose?
I think a really good centerline bunker hole has rewarding tee shots to either side of the bunker in the middle, depending on pin location, wind, etc. In this case it appears tee shots to the left will run down that hill and always leave an uphill approach over those daunting bunkers. Tee shots to the right yield what appears to be a much more open approach.
Maybe it's different on site but that's how it looks to me from this photo. Standard disclaimer: I've never played White Manor, so this is JMO. ;)
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Do golfers really dislike centerline bunkers ? I have played with plenty of non GCA types and have never heard a complaint about a visible centerline bunker. I have heard plenty of complaints about blind ones.
YES! Try to put one into an existing club. You might not make it out of the parking lot. We even had one "removed" from #8 at GC of Illinois.
There are several reasons, first and foremost the width issue brought up by Mr. Mucci (and with width goes irrigation system modifications and more fairway (hence maintenance expense argument).
Some other aspects lie in the ol' Fairness issue. The distance off the tee for different classes of players can make it more or less a determenant feature. While the same coud be said for any hazard, the fact that they are right in the middle of where players have been brainwashed into believing that that is where they are supposed to aim leads to increased scurtiny.
Also, whie the bunker remains stationary over time, the driving distances have not and what was once a prodigious carry is not even an after thought for the long hitters - which ruffles the feathers of those who can't carry it.
If the hole is wide enough to actuay have a double fairway setup, as in the 1st at Kingsley, is there a preferred side? And if there is, what exactly is the reason to have the otherside? Both sides have to have a workable outcome which causes one to have to think about which side suits his game. Tim Martin's photo of the #15 at White Manor appears to have this (I have never been there, only commenting on what the picture reveals). It seems the right side is more open and produces a better lbut longer line into the green while the shorter left requires negociating the left bunkering and the sloping fairway (I don't know if the risk/reward balance is enough for me ???). However, if the bunker isn't positioned properly in distance from the tee, all this can be moot if all one has to do is blow it straight over.
It takes careful planning to pull off a centerline bunker that works. Perhaps that is why, when we come upon one that does work, we find it to be a great feature.
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Royal New Kent (Strantz) sticks out to me. #5 has an interesting cross-bunker that ends up being a fairly tough (although fun IMO) mental challenge.
The only real strategy is that you have to carry it.
There's a small area between the two right-most bunkers that has a rock blocking the path.
(http://f.cl.ly/items/2S3e0g262D0n0P1J0l0p/RNK%20-%20Hole%205.jpeg)
(http://f.cl.ly/items/0e2V2Q0h0r0I0145281R/RNK%20-%205%20From%20Tee.png)
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Here`s a good one at White Manor # 15
(http://www.whitemanorcc.com/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=2019662)
Tim, do you really think that's a good one? Does anybody ever go left on purpose?
I think a really good centerline bunker hole has rewarding tee shots to either side of the bunker in the middle, depending on pin location, wind, etc. In this case it appears tee shots to the left will run down that hill and always leave an uphill approach over those daunting bunkers. Tee shots to the right yield what appears to be a much more open approach.
Maybe it's different on site but that's how it looks to me from this photo. Standard disclaimer: I've never played White Manor, so this is JMO. ;)
I guess our opinion of what constitutes a good centerline bunker is far different. It never occurred to me that you were supposed to be guaranteed a "rewarding" shot regardless of where you hit it in relation to the hazard. I have been in plenty of fairways where the angle was far better on the other side and not nearly as "rewarding". As we discuss so frequently on the site we are trying to give ourselves the best angle into the green and the farther from perfect our drive is the farther from perfect our angle of approach is. Remember that this is a 330 yard risk/reward par 4 so if you hit it more left of center than you wanted to it becomes a tougher approach. Should they have not put all those bunkers in left of the green so it would be the same shot from the left side of the fairway as the right? I like variety and strategy. ;)
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I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the 4th at Woking, surely one of the most strategic centre line hazards out there. Each of the four options for avoidance is possible (carry, lay-up, go left, go right) each with its pros and each with its cons. As with many of the great centre line hazards it is the combination of the CL bunker with a severe hazard on the preferred side (at Woking as at 16 on TOC, it is out of bounds in play down the preferred RHS) which elevates the hazard to greatness.
As to the impediment, I'm sure that many have correctly identified the unthinking golfer's belief that a shot hit into the middle of the fairway should give an ideal result and the fact that most golfers don't like to have to think about the shot they play. On this it's difficult not to agree with MHM.
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Tim,
From your photo and description I think that the problem with that White Manor hole is that a) it is clearly better to be right than left of the bunker AND b) there is no added danger on the right that makes that shot more hazardous than playing safely left. Why, then, would any golfer do anything other than play right of the bunker?
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impediment - RTJ, who used bunkers as punishment, instead of as Dr. Mac said as thought provoking.
We have suffered with generations of golfers who have been indoctrinated in bunkers as punishment.
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Tim,
From your photo and description I think that the problem with that White Manor hole is that a) it is clearly better to be right than left of the bunker AND b) there is no added danger on the right that makes that shot more hazardous than playing safely left. Why, then, would any golfer do anything other than play right of the bunker?
Mark- To be fair I don`t really understand the question. Isn`t the intention to find the line of charm on any hole? If you pull it left you have a tougher shot. Additionally there is a greenside bunker right which catches a push or blocked shot.
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I love the idea of this, which comes from Mike Riste's interview, in which he describes AV Macan's thought process behind placing centerline bunkers on Shaughnessy:
He placed fairway bunkers in strategic spots near the centre of the fairway to control the distance the players were driving the ball. He placed extreme emphasis on the fact he believed the centre of the fairway was not the position for the player’s drive. Mac placed a large landing area on one side of the central bunker and a smaller more challenging area on the opposite side. If the low handicap player chose the challenging side and placed his tee shot perfectly, Mac rewarded the player by sloping the green towards the player for the second shot.
Apparently Shaughnessy's members disliked the strategy and Mac's bunkers were ultimately removed. Which serves as more evidence that past golfers decided that bunkers were to serve only as "punishment," and that punishment should not be exacted from players who skillfully placed tee shots down the middle of the fairway.
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Patrick,
It's very simple. The majority of golfers believe that the only definition of a good tee shot is straight and long. There is little to dissuade this belief on most golf courses. What you and I consider imagination with regard to pin position and approach angles, the average golfer considers unnecessary analysis. That's the impediment.
The solution is to introduce golfers to more forms of strategy on a golf course and see how they react. Once they understand that there is an advantage to being on a particular side of a hazard, then the bunker becomes more fair in their eyes.
The worst centerline hazards are the ones where there is no reason to ever hit to one side and the goal--no matter the wind or pin position--is to always be on the opposite of that side.
One of my favorite centerline hazards is the center fairway bunker on #14 at Ballyneal. It creates not just a "left/right" problem, but a "front/back" problem as well. One of the few centerline hazards that asks you to think with regard to distance and directions.
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Tim,
But shouldn't the "line of charm" be something to be discovered, rather than being obvious. The great thing about 4 at Woking is that it's obvious that much the easier approach comes from playing right of the bunker. The green can even be reachable on that line. However, playing right brings OOB into the equation, so the cautious golfer might play left, making par (and certainly birdie) harder but taking double bogey out of the equation. It's that balance between risk and benefit that makes the centreline hazard great. I don't see that balance at White Manor. Right is obviously the better line in and seems no riskier than left. Why would any golfer choose to go left? He doesn't avoid any risk that way, he doesn't make the tee shot easier and he certainly makes the approach harder.
I guess I agree entirely with the third paragraph of Ben's post.
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Tim,
But shouldn't the "line of charm" be something to be discovered, rather than being obvious. The great thing about 4 at Woking is that it's obvious that much the easier approach comes from playing right of the bunker. The green can even be reachable on that line. However, playing right brings OOB into the equation, so the cautious golfer might play left, making par (and certainly birdie) harder but taking double bogey out of the equation. It's that balance between risk and benefit that makes the centreline hazard great. I don't see that balance at White Manor. Right is obviously the better line in and seems no riskier than left. Why would any golfer choose to go left? He doesn't avoid any risk that way, he doesn't make the tee shot easier and he certainly makes the approach harder.
I guess I agree entirely with the third paragraph of Ben's post.
Mark-Fair enough but wouldn`t a back right pin be more accessible from the left of the bunker?
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Tim, at 330 yds, it's hard to say the amount of impact this bunker has without knowing the distance from the bunker to the green. Without a doubt there is a degree of visual impact - something that GCA's use to obfuscate the golfers. I originally thought this was a long par 4 as green appeared much further to me. Now, if that was the case and the right side left me around 200 and the left in the 160-170 range, I'm beginning to consider the added risk of the approach for a 3 club benefit.
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Do golfers really dislike centerline bunkers ? I have played with plenty of non GCA types and have never heard a complaint about a visible centerline bunker. I have heard plenty of complaints about blind ones.
YES! Try to put one into an existing club. You might not make it out of the parking lot. We even had one "removed" from #8 at GC of Illinois.
There are several reasons, first and foremost the width issue brought up by Mr. Mucci (and with width goes irrigation system modifications and more fairway (hence maintenance expense argument).
Some other aspects lie in the ol' Fairness issue. The distance off the tee for different classes of players can make it more or less a determenant feature. While the same coud be said for any hazard, the fact that they are right in the middle of where players have been brainwashed into believing that that is where they are supposed to aim leads to increased scurtiny.
Also, whie the bunker remains stationary over time, the driving distances have not and what was once a prodigious carry is not even an after thought for the long hitters - which ruffles the feathers of those who can't carry it.
If the hole is wide enough to actuay have a double fairway setup, as in the 1st at Kingsley, is there a preferred side? And if there is, what exactly is the reason to have the otherside? Both sides have to have a workable outcome which causes one to have to think about which side suits his game. Tim Martin's photo of the #15 at White Manor appears to have this (I have never been there, only commenting on what the picture reveals). It seems the right side is more open and produces a better lbut longer line into the green while the shorter left requires negociating the left bunkering and the sloping fairway (I don't know if the risk/reward balance is enough for me ???). However, if the bunker isn't positioned properly in distance from the tee, all this can be moot if all one has to do is blow it straight over.
It takes careful planning to pull off a centerline bunker that works. Perhaps that is why, when we come upon one that does work, we find it to be a great feature.
Tim
Yes, well in general centreline bunkers work better on windy courses because on any given day they may not be carryable. I would say the the same for f&f courses where conditions may encourage/discourage golfers from taking on added risk.
Mark - while Woking's bunker only works these days as it was meant to from the back tee and with a bit of head wind, there is an added element these days. With the long ball guys can get caught out left with no shot and be forced to execute a brilliant pitch or bail out for the par. The retreating green and front left bunker (and right side bunker) aren't given enough credit for making the 4th a cracking hole.
Ciao
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Tim,
Yes, I agree. However, in that case, doesn't my argument still apply in reverse? What then is the added danger of playing left? The pin position changes the preferred line but the decision on the tee is still a straightforward one, it seems to me.
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Sean,
Exactly. The bunker at Woking works so brilliantly because of the way it interracts with the architecture of the rest of the hole. The green is set up to be approached from the centre or right. Right is threatened by the OOB. An approach from the left makes par tricky. Middle and short of the bunker offers an easy ish par. Right of the bunker offers a birdie chance but is dangerous. Long and left leaves a short but horribly tricky pitch. Remove any feature of the architecture and it becomes a lesser hole, I think. Great centre line hazards almost always work in conjunction with other architectural features of the hole.
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Sebonack #9 also has a big bunker int he middle of the fairway. Even Jack Nicklaus (with Tom Doak) is getting into the act.
I've seen plenty of centerline bunkers on Nicklaus courses. His design at Dove Mountain has four holes that feature them, all of them effectively.
I will say with regards to the topic, that one of my pet peeves is the faux centerline, bunker--that is a bunker that is surrounded by fairway but has such a small amount of fairway to one side of it that it just seems ridiculous to even keep the fairway cut.
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Talking Stick North has beauties: #4 with room both sides and over, #5, small pot dead center, and #12, sandy wash in the middle with dangerous small fairway left by OOB and huge fairway right with dangerous approach toward that OOB.
#5 Friars Head, short par 4 with lots of room both sides, either side okay depending on pin location.
Cuscowilla #5, another short 4 laid out like #12 TSN.
The common denominator? All by Coore and Crenshaw and all loosely modeled on #16 on the Old Course with the Principal's Nose the central hazard.
The irony? That the Links Trust has grown thick rough left of the PN!
As a golfer with little no classic course experience, I spent my entire adult golfing life playing Phoenix area courses built post 1980 and thus, the centerline bunker was an unknown feature to me... until I first played Talking Stick North. I should thank C&C for helping to bring back this feature to the modern golf course.
Chambers Bay #14 features a diagonal fairway with a pretty neat bunker in the middle that defines the strategy of the hole. Either play safe to the right and face a long shot to the green, or go for it left with a longer tee carry and a much shorter shot to the green.
(http://www.pbase.com/teejaywhy/image/130603986/original.jpg)
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I think my two favorite holes that incorporate centerline bunkers are...
#2 Pacific Dunes
I love this hole in general - perhaps one of my favorites at Pacific Dunes – along with #6, #7, and #16. The 'Shoe' bunker is fairly small - I would certainly guess well below the average bunker size at Pacific Dunes, but it certainly makes you think off the tee. Right of the bunker off the tee is probably the safer play, but the approach to the green becomes more difficult in my opinion - especially if you are not as familiar with the course and green surrounds.
#8 Kingsley Club
One of the very good, short par fours at Kingsley - the tee shot really provides you some options. Right of the bunkers is a little bit more intimidating off the tee as the landing area is partially blind from the tee - but the approach is a little more straight-forward given the angle to the green and slope. A long drive down the left between the bunkers and the tree line looks very good off the tee, but again, the angle to the green is a little more intimidating.
Both great holes in my opinion with very clear, differentiated routes to the green - along with the decision of when you want to put a greater premium on accuracy - off the tee or into the green.
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I think #3 at Pac Dunes is the best example of the ones I've played.
So many options on the tee shot, and then again on the layup. And it probably varies massively with a winter wind or the prevailing summer wind.
Good stuff all around!!
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Patrick:
I think the main impediment to centerline bunkers on American courses has been -- fairway width. When you have a course with fairways that are consistently 25-30 yards wide, it is difficult to integrate a centerline bunker that fits. If play to either side of the bunker is really going to be a viable option, you need at least 50 yards of width in the landing area [including the bunker], and that doesn't fit very well with a bunch of other holes that are half as wide.
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;D ;) 8)
Actually that centerline at White Manor (Bobby Weed redo) is quite interesting. If you can carry it 250 plus/minus you can try to knock it over the bunker and get it real close to the green. The fairway cants hard right to left if your angle of attack isn't spot on , so it's not a gimme , and if you block it right those trees come into play. If the green is firm , requires a quality shot to stuff it.
The left side is safe, and an easier play off the tee, but now you have to hit a severely uphill 2nd shot.
All in all a fun hole with some interesting angles and strategy , it's quite good!
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Talking Stick North has beauties: #4 with room both sides and over, #5, small pot dead center, and #12, sandy wash in the middle with dangerous small fairway left by OOB and huge fairway right with dangerous approach toward that OOB.
#5 Friars Head, short par 4 with lots of room both sides, either side okay depending on pin location.
Cuscowilla #5, another short 4 laid out like #12 TSN.
The common denominator? All by Coore and Crenshaw and all loosely modeled on #16 on the Old Course with the Principal's Nose the central hazard.
The irony? That the Links Trust has grown thick rough left of the PN!
As a golfer with little no classic course experience, I spent my entire adult golfing life playing Phoenix area courses built post 1980 and thus, the centerline bunker was an unknown feature to me... until I first played Talking Stick North. I should thank C&C for helping to bring back this feature to the modern golf course.
Chambers Bay #14 features a diagonal fairway with a pretty neat bunker in the middle that defines the strategy of the hole. Either play safe to the right and face a long shot to the green, or go for it left with a longer tee carry and a much shorter shot to the green.
(http://www.pbase.com/teejaywhy/image/130603986/original.jpg)
And yet on many of the newer courses, they are everywhere. Off the top of my head, you can find them on at least one hole at:
Talking Stick North
WeKoPa Cholla
WeKoPa Saguaro
Golf Club at Estrella
Raven at Verrado
Southern Dunes
TPC Stadium
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And yet on many of the newer courses, they are everywhere. Off the top of my head, you can find them on at least one hole at:
Talking Stick North
WeKoPa Cholla
WeKoPa Saguaro
Golf Club at Estrella
Raven at Verrado
Southern Dunes
TPC Stadium
That is my impression as well. Without doing an actual review of yardage books or photos I believe that they feature significantly in the majority of the last 20 newer courses that I have played.
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New courses over here I have played with CL bunkers: Crail Craighead, Close House Colt (several, really good ones), Renaissance Club.
New courses over here without: Slaley Hall Hunting, Slaley Hall Priestman, Ramside.
There is a complete corellation here with quality. Three good to excellent courses, three crap ones.
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A couple standout for me- The 2nd at Ballyhack has 3 of them, somewhat staggered...and plenty of width to accomodate various options. Very fun hole because of them.
Southern Dunes (AZ) has one on a tough par 4 on the back nine that is devilish.
One I just hit into the other day was the 2nd at Morgan Hill.
I think one of the reasons mid-handicappers like me with serious driver directional control issues don't mind em is because my "strategy" on many is to usually aim right at it...for obvious reasons. And if I happen to be in one...well, a moral victory :)
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Even my local muni, which was renovated a few years back has one.
Its a lot better in person...review is soon to come.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=47.659109,-117.085829&spn=0.002103,0.003409&t=h&z=19
P.S. I've always wondered. If a centerline bunker is small enough like a principals nose....do you really need to put a bunch of extra width in?
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Southern Dunes (AZ) has one on a tough par 4 on the back nine that is devilish.
That's the 15th hole. A long right-to-left par 4 where the drive plays downhill and the second shot uphill. The fairway slopes right-to-left with a bunker center-right in the fairway. You can find a flat lie short and right of the bunker, but that's making the hole quite a bit longer. Someone who draws the golf ball meanwhile will enjoy aiming one at the center bunker and peeling it off. That will save some distance on the hole, but the left side of the fairway is much lower than the right, so you are playing much more uphill on your second and it's harder to find a flat lie down there.
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Patrick:
I think the main impediment to centerline bunkers on American courses has been -- fairway width. When you have a course with fairways that are consistently 25-30 yards wide, it is difficult to integrate a centerline bunker that fits. If play to either side of the bunker is really going to be a viable option, you need at least 50 yards of width in the landing area [including the bunker], and that doesn't fit very well with a bunch of other holes that are half as wide.
Tom,
I wonder how many centerline bunker complexes were lost when fairways on existing courses were narrowed to accomodate automated irrigation systems.
If the trend to remove trees and restore fairway width takes hold, I wonder how many centerline bunker complexes will be restored or introduced.
Another good example of a centerline bunker feature is # 8 at Hidden Creek, with it's huge fairway.
I know that Archie Struthers isn't high on that hole, but, I think it's a wonderful feature, visually and from a playability perspective.
Certainly, choices at the tee can't be ignored.
To carry or lay up >
To aim right, left or right at it ?
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::) ::) ::)
Hey Pat, love the use of center lines , did two sets at Twisted Dune .
Think the bunker design at Hidden Creek is beautiful on #8 , natural and rumpled. Just don't see he risk reward for long hitters given the green lol !
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::) ::) ::)
Hey Pat, love the use of center lines , did two sets at Twisted Dune .
Think the bunker design at Hidden Creek is beautiful on #8 , natural and rumpled. Just don't see he risk reward for uo long hitters given the green lol !
Archie,
Some questions.
What do you think of the introduction of the centerline bunker on # 3 at Hidden Creek ?
What prompted you to introduce centerline bunkers at Twisted Dune ?
Why did you introduce them on more than one hole ?
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>:( 8) :D
Loved the randomness of bunkers in the old country. Given the genre was more Irish than American at Twisted Dune , wanted to be a little quirky, hence the centerline on # 4 and the smaller pots on #12. Tend to think the second shot on five pars is often under thought. Certainly the bunkers as positioned make you pay attention.
In retrospect, think I played it a little too close to the vest at Twisted, as crazy as that may sound. When I played there recently kept thinking of ways to tinker. If I hit the lottery Friday will ask Eric B if we can do some work there next winter on my dime. He's already built a new tee that we had envisioned on #11 and it makes the second shot there semi blind . Would love to play there soon with you there soon before it gets too busy . Lots of birdies and bogeys out there! We can surely get a good game and barbeque set up .
Think the bunker at Hidden Creek will work well. Might entice a few more players to challenge the big pit in front of th
e green. It's a real good par five and will be better now.
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Archie,
Would love to take you up on your offer, but, my MRI on Sunday is going to dictate my playing schedule for the next few months.
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We did a few at Royal Queensland - a course with particularly wide fairways.
Some of the members hated them because they caught their 'perfect drives'.
The club held was a information night about a year after the courses opened and one member asked me about the 'ridiculous' bunker at the 9th hole. It is about 265 yards off the tee.
There is 30 yards of fairway right of the bunker and 25 left of it.He agreed that 30 yards was a reasonable width for a fairway.
I suggested that if we just grew all of the left side as rough then the bunker would not be in the middle of the fairway but,rather, in the left rough and 'it wouldn't be unfair'
'I had never thought of it like that' It was a nice concession.
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Mike,
In my limited experience, my observation is that golfers tend to view the golf course, solely, from their playing perspective.
Rarely does a golfer view a golf course through the eyes of the broad spectrum of golfers, choosing instead to narrow the focus to their game.
Your response was well thought out, even if it was spontaneous.
What prompted you to want to introduce centerline bunker complexes ?
Do you feel, that restored width on older courses could lead to the reintroduction of more centerline bunker complexes ?
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.. my "strategy" on many is to usually aim right at it...for obvious reasons. And if I happen to be in one...well, a moral victory :)
My strategy exactly!
Southern Dunes #15 is a good one. You need to stay left of the bunker to get the tee shot as close to the waste area as possible to have a decent shot at the uphill green. But from the tee it looks so much more inviting to the right but that leaves a very long approach with possible interference from the tree.
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The original Augusta National was chock-a-block full of centerline bunkers.
The first centerline to bite the dust might have been the centerline bunker at the present 11th. The story was that Col. Jones abhorred the bunker at this hole and obviously would have had the ear of his son Bobby.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/jstiles/Aug_Nat_14th_stiles_.jpg)
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Patrick
We did them at the 2nd,7th,9th, 12th,15th and 18th holes. The fairways at those holes are probably all between 60 and 80 yards wide - so we made the space to build them. Aside from 12 which is a drivable four for long hitters but a 3 iron and wedge for me they are tee shots that can easily be played with a driver - you just decide to go over, left,right or short. There is always plenty of space around them if you want to avoid them but the angles are not as good from far away from them.
We did them because the holes were wide enough to do them well and bunkers in the road of where you want to go can be so much more interesting than just having them down the sides. The problem is golfers think that if they hit 'straight' they should be rewarded.
For me well placed bunkers in the fairways simply make the game much more interesting. Of course the key is not to overuse them but I don't think we did that at RQ.
I am sure if old courses restored width they could introduce or reintroduce the concept. It's fun if they are taken in the right spirit.