Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Matt_Ward on May 01, 2011, 08:38:10 PM
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Had the pleasure in playing C&C's new layout in the Pinehurst area -- The Dormie Club.
A number of people have seen / played the course and I just wanted to add my thoughts on two sensational back-to-back holes.
The short 14th plays about 310 yards -- although the effective distance is slightly longer because of the climb from tee-to-green -- a situation, I might add, comes up frequently when playing the course. The 14th at TDC is similar in certain ways with what C&C did with a similar number hole -- the one at Bandon Trails. Unlike the Oregon course -- the NC-hole plays as I said uphill. You also have a piece of land that was used so superbly by the duo.
There is a solitary bunker that guards the left center of the fairway -- a slot is provided for those who want to squeeze their tee shot through that opening -- and the emphasis is on the word squeeze. If you push to the right to avoid the bunker you only increase your overall demands -- the land then slopes away from the green and you have a daunting pitch shot to an elevated green with sharp falloffs that are cut quite close -- anything that comes up even a smidge short -- will roll back. If you hit it too hard then you face the possibility your shot can scamper across the green which is quite narrow towards the rear portiion.
The hole is quite fair -- something the OR layout has had issues with for many people (personally I like the hole there very much). At TDC you have to accept your limitations -- starting at the tee and positioning yourself so your approach can be made with a direct flight to the green itself. Blasting away from the tee is a dead-propositin and C&C have really added much with what this hole provides.
The 15th has been mentioned on another thread and I have to say for a hole just under 400 yards it is an eyeful for its beauty and strategic brilliance. In many ways it reminded me of the 6th at PV. You can cut off as much as you dare -- push too far right and it's reload city. The hole funnells into a tight landing area the longer you hit the tee shot -- get to the 280-300 yards mark and you really need to marry length and total laser-like accuracy. The further back you play the longer the approach and if you hit it left to avoid the danger on the right you will have a blind approach.
The green is also well done -- balls will bounce in from the left and you need again to gauge the flight time (and roll) in order to get near the pin for a birdie putt.
I will have more to say on TDC -- but I wanted to emphasize these two stellar holes. They use the topography to the best effect and you need to really study your options before you pull the trigger. Hats off to the duo for a winning pair of tour de force holes.
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i tried to tell you it was great...
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Chip:
I never doubted people and I could not say anything until having played the course.
Hard to imagine another course in the broader Pinehurst golf community but TDC is clearly a big time cut above the rest.
There are many fine holes at the course but I really enjoyed what they did with #14 and #15. Shows how creativity can be used to the maximum effect.
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So…I'll be in Pinehurst from May 28-June 1. Anyone want to get together to play at Dormie? I'd rather not go by myself.
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Steve:
You will enjoy TDC - just fantastic golf -- although keep in mind, the first three holes set the stage for when the golf really kicks into gear with the 4th hole.
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Thanks Matt, I will be there Sunday and look forward to seeing the layout. I also can't wait to see #2 the following day.
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Matt,
10 plays vs Sand Hills how do you split them.
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I was kinda hoping for a few pics to see for myself.
In the meantime, a spot of humor:
(http://anitacampbell.com/andertoons-picture-worth.jpg)
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(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5022/5680289571_4d26236051_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28067757@N08/5680289571/)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5680289969_19ffd4b60a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28067757@N08/5680289969/)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5680851804_3e0c5662f1_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28067757@N08/5680851804/)
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I agree 100% with Matt. 14 i found to appear to be very ho-hum off the tee and even considered having a go with the driver but ended up hitting a nice 3iron down to about 45 yards and was perfectly stymied by the well placed greenside bunker. on a second trip back i would much rather lay back with a shorter club or try to ensure my approach was snug against the left side of the fairway. these were two of my favorite holes at the Dormie Club. I can apprecaite the comparison between Dormie & Bandon Trails but i'd say the short par 4 plays better at Dormie however lacks the view and "oh my" moment from the tee box.
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I can see PV #6 in the comparison of #15. How far is it to the bunkers straight away?
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From memory i recall 250-270 yds...
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What I love most about 14 & 15 is the impact the wind has on these two holes. The majority of the loops I've had the wind has been in your face on 15 which makes the tee shot really interesting. Into a stiff breeze I watched a guy kill his drive right at the short bunker on the left and not get close to it. When the wind is with you on 14, 95% of all players I've seen hit driver and go for the green, most of them end up in the woods left having to punch out. The ones that hit a good drive between the tree and the bunker are rewarded with a simpler chip shot. Perfect risk/reward hole.
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Cory:
Good point on the wind dimension. The breeze was slightly into me from the left on #15 but I hit driver anyway and had roughly 80 yards left as I squeezed the tee shot between the bunkers left and the drop-off right. In the future -- I would likely hit 1-iron or 3-metal and take my chances further back.
The key thing is that the approach is not e-z by any means -- one can fly the ball all the way into the target but the bounce in from the left side is also a fun thing provided one gets the proper kick.
#15 is a marvelous hole because of the scenic "all in front of you" look it provides. It reminds me very much of PV's 6th hole.
The 14th, in my mind, is a better hole than the one (#14 too) at BT.
The driver shot is one any player needs to really think about -- pushing it to the right only ensures the ball will scamper even further to that side and the resulting pitch needed for the 2nd is quite frightening because those who play it too "cute" can easily replay that same shot.
The play is what Brad said -- hit for roughly 200 yards and keep it tight to the left side of the fairway. You then are staring down any pin location. The greatness of the hole is that it looks SO SIMPLE -- but will pick your pocket faster than anyone can imagine.
Sean:
I played Sand Hills not long after it opened -- so from memory I give the Nebraska layout a 7-3 split in its favor -- but make no mistake about TDC is very good in so many ways -- the weak link for me was the first three holes - they are good (especially the short 3rd) but SH has no real weaknesses. TDC does have one thing few ever realize -- the course plays at minimum 200+ more yards than the course indicates because of the elevation changes. When TDC gets the greens at full firmness and speed I could see the 7-3 margin being narrowed. Only time will tell. There's more to the Pinehurst area than #2 now -- a first rate layout by C&C.
Gents:
Although not tied to this thread -- I really liked the par-5 10th - 659 yards. No misprint there ! Just keeps on swinging left from tee-to-green and the narrow funnel towards the green really takes guts to fire a second shot to get closer to the green.
Jim F:
If you want a sleeper course nearby to Pinehurst -- try Bayonet at Puppy Creek in the greater Fayetteville area -- fun layout and wonderful terrain although you will not know it till you get through the 2nd hole.
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Matt -
I wish I had time to check out that course, but I am playing Dormie and then #2 early the next day before I need to get to Charlotte for meetings and a charity outing. Maybe next year I can allot more time to my visit.
On #15, how far is the bunker on the left from the green?
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Matt, Brad, and Cory,
Call me nuts (and this is based on a single play at Dormie), but on #14, I don't think that banging driver or 3 metal and missing to the right is all that bad of a play to try and leave yourself a shorter pitch. There's plenty of room over there and the angle in provides the opportunity to use the green as a backboard of sorts. Sure, the green falls off the front and back, but the majority of the green slopes left to right.
The green does provides a tough shot from almost anywhere. I hit driver and came up about 15 yards short right in front of the green. The pitch I had was so tough because I couldn't get the ball to stop trickling to the right side of the green. I struck it perfectly, it checked, but it wouldn't stop feeding. I then looked over to the short right fairway and thought that's where you could use the slope of the green to get the ball to stop quicker on the approach.
Now, I'm not saying it's the preferred play, but I don't think it's a bad play. But I would much rather take my chances from down there than lay up off the tee and have to hit a full approach into the green. I would worry about ripping it off the front or pulling it left as that's jail over there as well.
Here's a few shots that I took, too.
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Dormie%20Club/IMG_1282.jpg)
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Dormie%20Club/IMG_1285.jpg)
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Dormie%20Club/IMG_1287.jpg)
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Dormie%20Club/IMG_1288.jpg)
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Jim,
They told me 290 to the bunkers on 15. Considering it was 45* and into the wind when I played it, it was no cause for concern.
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Did I hear that this course is semi-accessible for the semi-masses like me?
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Jim,
They told me 290 to the bunkers on 15. Considering it was 45* and into the wind when I played it, it was no cause for concern.
How about from these bunkers to the green for the second shot?
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Jim,
They told me 290 to the bunkers on 15. Considering it was 45* and into the wind when I played it, it was no cause for concern.
How about from these bunkers to the green for the second shot?
This a straight up guess, but I believe I was more back towards the left bunker off the tee and I had 120 left.
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Jim,
They told me 290 to the bunkers on 15. Considering it was 45* and into the wind when I played it, it was no cause for concern.
How about from these bunkers to the green for the second shot?
This a straight up guess, but I believe I was more back towards the left bunker off the tee and I had 120 left.
Thanks. That is what I was looking for.
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Jonathan B:
OK -- I'm calling you "nuts." ;D
Going too far right is a bad play -- the pitch shot is more than a simple one and the "backstop" you claim is a slight one at best and I'm being generous with that usage.
The best play is about 100 yards out and towards the left side of the fairway hugging the tree line -- all the pin locations are in full view from that spot.
Much tougher option to drive the green because it's slightly uphill and one needs to slot the ball perfectly. Unlike the 14th at BT - the tee shot there is much easier since you are hitting "down" towards that green.
We can quibble on whether it's bad or not so bad -- but I don't see far right or anything that is green high and towards the right -- leaving a ticklish 20-30 yard pitch to be anything remotely close to ideal. Just too much risk to possibly chunk it or hit it short and the ball returns to your feet.
The 14th at TDC will spark plenty of discussion and when you have a hole that is THAT short -- you expect to have a good shot at birdie - that doesn't happen if you hit down the far right side in my mind.
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Carl:
Get there soon !
Believe the base rate is $150 plus the cart and/or caddie fee.
Well worth it indeed !
Jim:
The smart play on #15 is to leave something in the 100-120 yard range. The choke point is quite narrow and the slightest pull / push can be the end of the story before it even begins ! Enjoy -- eager to hear your thoughts.
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Matt,
What's funny is that I don't consider myself an overly aggressive player, but I'm hitting it down there on this hole. Mainly because I hate having a short iron or wedge hanging below my feet and that's this hole. My miss is to stand up on it which bring thats right bunker into play.
It's all what you're comfortable with as a player, but I would rather come in from the odd angle with a better stance and use the slope of the hill to my advantage to loft the ball high and soft and get it to land more dead instead of it coming in ripping with wedge spin. That's just me though.
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Jonathan:
The front bunker is ONLY in play with the driver or one's longest club -- could be a 3-metal for the strongest of players.
A wedge shot to VIEWABLE PINS (wherever it may be positioned) is promoted much more so with a left side of the fairway position. It's a dead on shot from that side. You keep on saying about the backstop element -- what backstop. You make it sound like one can hit it hard and ipso facto the hill with whatever spin you can put on a ball from say 30-40 yards will suck the ball nearer to the hole. You're right -- "that's just you (me) though."
I played several shots from different angles and the far right side can easily become a repetitive exercise because you are hitting to a narrow elevated target and the slightest -- and I mean the slightest chunk -- and it's a repeat game again. Going long is no bargain either.
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Matt,
All I'm saying is that it's a preference thing. Looking at my last photo, based on the hole location and the fact that the green slopes from left to right, I feel more comfortable playing a shorter lofted pitch back into that green slope.
On most any other hole of this length I would normally tend to lay up and play safer, but with the ball below my feet on a fuller swing, I would feel more comfortable with the shorter shot. The target is so small I could easily miss it from anywhere.
I understand I'm probably in the minority regarding how this hole should be played.
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Matt, that green is small. Hitting a wedge in is no bargain. In my opinion, laying up does not materially increase your odds at making birdie and hitting driver (even if it goes to the right) does not materially increase your odds of making worse than par. You have to hit a damn good second shot regardless of whether it is a full wedge or a little pitch. I'm with Jonathan. It's a matter of personal preference.
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Ed:
If one cannot hit a green with a wedge -- the answer is simple -- head to the range and work it out.
Playing a fuller shot from 100-120 yards is much better than the half pitch. Check out why pros do this all the time.
If it's your personal preference then knock yourself out and do it. Just don't chunk it a hair or blade it. Very e-z to do in those half-yardage situations.
Or if you're up for it -- just bomb the driver on the green and forget the wedge approach in either situation. ;D
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Matt, did you birdie the hole with your wedge?
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Ed:
I had a shorter putt for birdie when laying-up from 90-100 yards then having beat driver and finished all the way near the end of the fairway on the right.
Ed, there's no doubt that one can score from either situation -- the issue is one of probability and no doubt personal preference is part of tha dynamic. The half-wedge shot is a tough one -- a good bit tougher than the full shot. Watch the pros on TV and you will see exactly what I am saying. If you like your chances in the way you mentioned -- then by all means do it.
In any case - the 14th is a superb short hole -- on that front, we all agree.
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Is the problem with the driver approach a "half wedge" or is it a chip shot? I know the pros like to bomb driver or 3 wood on par 5 seconds to get close. they hate the half wedge but like a short chip.
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Jim:
There is no "short chip" because when you finish on the right side after hitting driver or 3-metal you have an elevated green which run at a direct different angle than where you are. If you hit it ONE INCH short of the green itself -- the ball WILL roll back to where you were before. From the tee the right side looks so inviting -- and that is the trap that C&C have set for the unsuspecting player.
If the situation on the right side were nothing more than your garden variety "chip shot" I'd be the first to say it's a no brainer and one should opt for it 98%+ of the time. It's just not.
Jim, preferences do matter -- but some people have preferences that run counter to ensuring a high rate of probability of success.
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Thanks Matt, sounds like a good layup to the left for me.
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Jim,
Assuming you get it down there on the right, it's more of a "soft with loft" floater approach. I know a lot of people don't like that shot, but I've had to hit it a million times at the course I grew up playing and I'm comfortable with it.
If you end up short and center while staring down at the green, it's a chip or pitch shot.
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Jim:
Keep this in mind -- the "effective" distance for quite a few of the holes at TDC is more than what the scorecard suggests. The 14th is listed at 309 I believe but it's a bit longer because of the slightly uphill nature of both the land and where the green sits. Also, bermuda isn't exactly the fastest surface when in full bloom even when cut tight as it is at TDC. I just think the prudent play is the 90-100 yard lay-up on the left side. When there try it both ways and see what works best for you.
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Matt,
I found this photo from sand hills insider....and this is in the general area that I want to hit my approach from. Once again, we both agree it's preference, but on this hole I'll take this shot.
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/14a1.jpg)
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Great looking approach. If my caddy won't mind, I will try both.
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How big is the green?
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For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14. 3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot. I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.
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For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14. 3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot. I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.
Let's hope it is 5 after Sunday ;D.
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I played the DC two weeks ago. The terrain is spectacular and the routing is brilliant. The terrain reminds me a little of the Colorado Club, though the green sites seem to have more undulations and roll more at the DC. What I loved the most were the options for second shots. If you can fly it high and softly hit at the hole if not bump and run it, but judge the speed and ground properly or pay the price.
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Or you could hit it right like I did with the driver, hit it over the green and have a wicked downhill chip coming back.
I don't recommend that route.
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14 is undoubtedly a terrific short hole. When I played DC, one member of the group drove the green and had a reasonable eagle putt, other hit irons and one had to fly the bunker from down the right slope. Lot's of possibilities.
I really like the approach to 15 but would like to see a tee further to the left to create a wider angle and introduce a little more risk. As it stands it is not a difficult carry and you can play it at close to 90 degrees from the approach with little risk.
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Rory / Tommy:
Agreed with your comments -- the hole can bite very quickly for those who nap even just slightly.
Rory -- don't know how a tee could be moved further to the left on #15. Maybe you can highlight where
it would be.
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I just got back from playing Dormie and loved it. As for #14, I hit two balls as promised, but my driver hooked badly into the trees while my 4 iron left me a little under 80 yards. My approach with the 4 iron was to within 6 feet to a back pin, but my opponent picked it up before I could make my birdie ;D. My original drive was found and played through the trees and went long for a nightmarish chip back.
As for #15, I tried cutting a driver at the second bunker and hit a hook >:(. All in all I thought DC was a terrific course and reminded me a lot of Old Sandwich. I hope they survive because it is a deserving course in a golf rich town.
BTW, #2 was AWESOME! So much better than when I played there in 1998.
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For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14. 3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot. I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.
Yes, but how many times have you seen somebody hit the green in two and walk off with a 7 (or was that just me)?
Played it for the first time last week, once with hickories and once with steels. My first C&C experience, and it left me yearning for another.
14 was simply incredible to me in its simplicity of design. One bunker, a slippery green and tons of room to pick your plan. I think the photo is the perfect angle, as you have a little angle into the left-to-right tilt of the green which helps you avoid the bunker, without the risk of a heavy pitch rolling back to your feet. Also, if you are a little long, the comeback pitch isn't as daunting. Playing down the right off the tee does give you a little benefit of hitting into the green slope, but I would hate to miss long and face the frightening chip directly down the slope (as Bruce indicated). I putted off the green from the high side - I don't even want to imagine the risk on a pitch.
15 was another great hole, starting with the cape decision off the tee and then followed up by the numerous options for attacking the green. On many holes at TDC, you could drop 3 balls in the fairway and find 3 different paths to the pin. Phrases like "sling it off the slope" or "let it trundle down" were very common in our groups. We had aerial artists, ground ball artists, hookers and faders in our group, and all had great fun at Dormie.
As the owner told me after our round (paraphrasing) "once you've reached Dormie, you can't lose."
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Kevin, you had hookers in your group? ;D
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For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14. 3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot. I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.
Yes, but how many times have you seen somebody hit the green in two and walk off with a 7 (or was that just me)?
Played it for the first time last week, once with hickories and once with steels. My first C&C experience, and it left me yearning for another.
14 was simply incredible to me in its simplicity of design. One bunker, a slippery green and tons of room to pick your plan. I think the photo is the perfect angle, as you have a little angle into the left-to-right tilt of the green which helps you avoid the bunker, without the risk of a heavy pitch rolling back to your feet. Also, if you are a little long, the comeback pitch isn't as daunting. Playing down the right off the tee does give you a little benefit of hitting into the green slope, but I would hate to miss long and face the frightening chip directly down the slope (as Bruce indicated). I putted off the green from the high side - I don't even want to imagine the risk on a pitch.
15 was another great hole, starting with the cape decision off the tee and then followed up by the numerous options for attacking the green. On many holes at TDC, you could drop 3 balls in the fairway and find 3 different paths to the pin. Phrases like "sling it off the slope" or "let it trundle down" were very common in our groups. We had aerial artists, ground ball artists, hookers and faders in our group, and all had great fun at Dormie.
As the owner told me after our round (paraphrasing) "once you've reached Dormie, you can't lose."
KLynch, an opposing view :) ...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50104.html
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KLynch, an opposing view :) ...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50104.html
Mark,
I read those, now that I have played the course. I try to avoid discussions / photo tours of courses I may end up playing, since I want to enter the round with as few preconceptions / expectations as possible.
On 14, I think there is more of a trade-off than you give credit for. If you are a solid lob wedge player, it may be a no- brainer to lay-up and play to your strength. But, not everyone has that strength and the very firm, tight lies at Dormie can cause some doubt.
I'm someone who's much more confortable flighting a lower ball or hitting a ground ball. I also can't resist the thrill of trying to drive a par 4. This hole is wonderful for that combination. I can hit a runner only from the high left, which brings trees into play. My 90 yard fairway just became 10-15 yards wide for that. I try to drive the green (or get very close) and hit a slice, I'm facing a shot which is not my forte. There are just so many options and trade offs, it's a great hole.
As for 15, I wasn't too focused on the cape tee shot. A blind shot doesn't really phase me too much, so I'm not going to bite off too much. The challenge for me on that shot is more distance control, as I may fly the fairway if I'm too safe. But I really loved he last 50 yards of the hole and the green. Just so many different options to get to the flag.
However, I probably need to play the cape version of the hole a few more times to really appreciate the trade offs. I played the hickories in the morning, so we used the up tees, which makes it a completely different hole (potentially drivable with high risk/high reward).
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However, I probably need to play the cape version of the hole a few more times to really appreciate the trade offs. I played the hickories in the morning, so we used the up tees, which makes it a completely different hole (potentially drivable with high risk/high reward).
We played the forward tees once as well. Amazing drivable par-4 from there, for sure!
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I thought this might be a good time to pull up this thread since we have had several people get to see these two holes recently. Truth be told I was looking for the 15th alone and succeeded in finding it with the search function.
Thoughts? On the holes not the search function.
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14 is a strange hole for me. I love the simplicity, but I just can't bring myself to love the hole. When I played during the HHH a few years ago I always felt puzzled when I walked up to the tee. The hole just feels strange to me. My favorite thing about 14 is that I know 15 is next.
15 is my favorite hole on the course. I always seem to play this hole well and I love the view from the tee box. I also think the approach shot is interesting because of the mounding on the left and the trouble on the right. Playing the ground game on the left is great - watching the ball disappear over the mound and the anticipation to see where it ends up when it comes back into view is amazing.
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Just back from Pinehurst and a visit to TDC.
Hit a driver up the left on #14 and chipped and two putted. Birdied 15 having driven thru the fairway on the left. I was left with a dead straight 15 footer and holed it!
It's funny reading threads like this. Having thought about it, 14 and 15 are great golf holes.
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I really like those holes, too.
Off-season photos from last winter:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/DormieClub/