Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Alex Miller on April 28, 2011, 04:00:11 AM
-
What is it? How do we define it? Some have suggested that it is variety in a round, but I think there's a lot more to it than that. I think that to some degree quirk is bad architecture, or architecture that doesn't really make sense, which appeals to the golfer. Quirk is probably also just another way of describing the uniqueness of a hole or a course, but is that always a good thing? Is there good quirk and bad quirk?
I ask these questions because the term is ubiquitous on here and it's not used the same way every time. "That course has quirk, that hole has quirk, there's too much quirk in that course for my tastes." Maybe we can do a better job of defining the word so we all have a better idea of what the hell each of us really means to say.
For example, which is quirkier?
A)
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000570.jpg)
or B)
(http://0.tqn.com/d/golf/1/0/P/E/augusta1a.JPG)
or C)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC3Tee.jpg)
-
Alex,
I don't really see any quirk there to be honest. I remember a discussion several years ago along these lines, and I'll try and find it, but I was unhappy at using the term quirk, as I felt it had negative feel to it. By the end of this other thread, I was happy with it though... I think it comes from playing on plenty of old courses here in the UK where what people from outside the UK consider "quirk" is actually pretty normal?
I'd say that "quirk" is utilising a feature in the existing landscape, in an innovative or unexpected way, that would otherwise be ripped up and replaced, but gives the green, hole or course a little something extra as far as character is concerned, enhancing the spirit of place?
I'm thinking the 13th at North Berwick: The wall is part of the existing landscape, so using it really ties the hole to the site, but pushing the green to the far side of it brings the green closer to the beach and gives a unique hazard that woukld otherwise be totally ignored or taken away?
Cheers,
James
-
So according to that definition C) would be quirky. It certainly uses the existing landforms in an unexpected way :)
Ulrich
-
Yes, for me C is definitely quirky regardless if the features are man-made or not because of the unusualness of the hole. Growing up aerial golf seemed to be the norm so any feature which encouraged ground golf had a much better chance of being quirky. Its actually pretty unusual for a wall or something to be in play on a golf course in an unusual way (mostly they are used as boundaries). I think the more quirky stuff is down to terrain. I would also say blindness is easy to see as quirky, but for me there has to be something which sets the blindness apart from the usual. There is also the case where there isn't a lot of flat out quirky stuff going, but a fair amount of borderline funk because of the nature of the property. I think Pennard falls in this sort of category. When you think about it, there is very little funk going on, but the totality of bits of quirk add up in the total analysis. For instance, Burnham has several elements of funk with the 3rd green, 7th green, 10th tee shot, bridleway on 13, 15th tee shot and green site and the 16th green. I don't think Pennard has that much pure funk, but few people would think of Burnham as funkier than Pennard.
Ciao
-
I don't see photo C, above as quirky, just boring and dull. Its a hole down the middle of a valley, whether the valley is man made or not, I don't know, but holes along valley bottoms, or through the base of dune valleys happen all the time. This one just happens to be a very boring version of this. Now if the fairway was all down one slope with the cart path at the base of the valley that would be quirky ;D
Sean, I certainly agree with your comment about Pennard as having few significantly quirky features, but as a whole the courses certainly feels that way. However, I don't really agree with Burnham when it comes to quirky? 3rd and 15th green are just good historical examples of punchbowl greens that have survived the test of time. 10th tee shot being blind is only quirky for the fact that I dont think of Colt as being one for blind shots. Yes the bridlepath on 13 or the 16th green are quirky, but as a whole I just see a fine example of a links course utilising the existing land?
Cheers,
James
-
Alex,
I don't really see any quirk there to be honest. I remember a discussion several years ago along these lines, and I'll try and find it, but I was unhappy at using the term quirk, as I felt it had negative feel to it. By the end of this other thread, I was happy with it though... I think it comes from playing on plenty of old courses here in the UK where what people from outside the UK consider "quirk" is actually pretty normal?
I'd say that "quirk" is utilising a feature in the existing landscape, in an innovative or unexpected way, that would otherwise be ripped up and replaced, but gives the green, hole or course a little something extra as far as character is concerned, enhancing the spirit of place?
I'm thinking the 13th at North Berwick: The wall is part of the existing landscape, so using it really ties the hole to the site, but pushing the green to the far side of it brings the green closer to the beach and gives a unique hazard that woukld otherwise be totally ignored or taken away?
Cheers,
James
James
I would also suggest there has to be a rarity value otherwise it would be pretty standard, therefore what is quirky today might have been the norm back in the day such as the case you sight of the 13th at NB. Back then walls were regularly used as obstacles.
Niall
-
I don't see photo C, above as quirky, just boring and dull. Its a hole down the middle of a valley, whether the valley is man made or not, I don't know, but holes along valley bottoms, or through the base of dune valleys happen all the time. This one just happens to be a very boring version of this. Now if the fairway was all down one slope with the cart path at the base of the valley that would be quirky ;D
Sean, I certainly agree with your comment about Pennard as having few significantly quirky features, but as a whole the courses certainly feels that way. However, I don't really agree with Burnham when it comes to quirky? 3rd and 15th green are just good historical examples of punchbowl greens that have survived the test of time. 10th tee shot being blind is only quirky for the fact that I dont think of Colt as being one for blind shots. Yes the bridlepath on 13 or the 16th green are quirky, but as a whole I just see a fine example of a links course utilising the existing land?
Cheers,
James
James,
You are way wrong on that! C is a do it yourself Dell hole. The fairway is only 12 yards wide, so if you miss over the dunes right or left, you have just created a Dell hole for yourself. Other than the cart path, the hole is entirely natural landscape with a truly minimalist design.
I think we have quirk all wrong. Melvyn is correct! What we call quirk is simply acceptance of golf in a natural environment. The massive movement of earth to create artificial features to me is the true quirk. If you build a course where every green only accepts a high fade, then you have the epitomy of redundant quirk. That is of course if quirk can be redundant. ;)
-
To answer Alex's question, the 12th at Augusta is quirky. My understanding is that it has been modified by backing up water into the stream in front. It has been modified by creating unsightly deep bunkers and filling them with unnatural colored sand.
The other two are examples of golf in a more natural environment. True to the origins of the game.
-
I will attempt a very modern definition:
Quirk = Any feature of a golf course that will cause some golf players to say WTF ... while at least many of the true golfers, if not all of them, will say OMG.
Quirk = Any feature of a golf course that causes an architect to wonder if too many golf players will say WTF, while too few true golfers will say OMG.
Of course, the best architects will plow ahead despite their doubts -- because all true golfers love quirk. There is no such thing as bad quirk.
When true golfers don't love a bit of quirk, it's not quirk. It's bad design.
-
I'd say that "C" is quirky. If I recall correctly, this is a photograph from Astoria?
-
I'm not sure that you can isolate quirk to one hole. In my opinion, it needs to be a thread which is present throughout the round / course. I view photo C as quirk because I have played the entire course and there is a bit of quirk that is present throughout the course. In isolation, photo C would just result in a "WTF is this?" moment on the course.
Any of the holes from Prestwick, Lahinch, Elie, The Island (or any number of courses) when viewed individually and out of context would be strange and potentially bad architecture. However, viewed in context, they are charming and add to the experience.
Maybe similar to the difference between being weird versus eccentric? (although, that is usually just a function of money, so maybe not appropriate)
-
In a perfect world where I owned 200 acres of at least workable, if not primo land and money is no big deal...I'd hire one of the best in the biz and give them only 1 instruction.
"Let your imagination run wild and build an 18 hole golf course with nothing but over the top crazy, unfettered, and un-orthodox quirk....the further-out-of-the-box, the better".
It probably wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but that'd be fine as it'd be private! ;)
-
A. Great quirk.
B. I would never think of quirk there--at least nowadays :( #11 is long, straight, matter of fact and bail right. #12 is as non quirk as it gets--hit it an exact distance to a pancake of a green. Penal hole demanding correct distance control more than anything--it's like hitting to an island green surrounded by hazards.
C. Crap
-
I think the truest definition of quirk is probably INTEREST. The 8th green complex at Pebble has what some might say is quirk, narrow entrance, bunkers all around, kind of an oddity; but its a very interesting shot. I suppose I could say that same about #7 green as well. The enormity of the greens at Old Macdonald is kind of quirky/odd, but also add interest to the course (BTW, since I know a lot of guys have played there recently, how are the greens doing? When I played last July, they were rather lean, I thought). In my opinion, the term quirk has been used by many in a near derogatory form for features that simply aren't liked by them. Not saying the initial writer here thinks that about the holes he posted though.
-
How about something like this? This bunker is approximately 4' x 4' with a 2 1/2 to 3 foot high face. It is one of the last places you would ever want to find your ball and located directly in the bend of the dogleg. So, while serving a purpose, the chances of actually ending up in there are pretty unlikely given its size. To me, THIS is quirky. Just one of those Pete Dye things, you either love em or hate em...
(http://filebox.vt.edu/users/bross/River%20Course/IMG_1508%20scale.jpg)
-
For all J/Ks talk about half pipe bunkers and such...I've never seen a more perfect half pipe than that one.
I understand its a completely natural land form and all, but I gotta agree with Chris on this one...looks like crap!
-
Quirk...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/stilwellpark.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Inwood2.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DismalRiver10I.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/TobaccoRoad7.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Paiute8.jpg)
-
Quirk:
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/Redlands%20Mesa/RM_05_Fairway.jpg)
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/Redlands%20Mesa/RM_17_Tee2.jpg)
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/STA72945.jpg)
-
Quirk, like beauty, seems to be in the eye of the beholder. I would bet that 90 percent of this site would say that the Dell hole at Lahinch is a great example of quirk. On the other hand, if Tom Fazio built the same hole on his next course, I would guess that 90 percent of this site would hate it and it would generate 20 pages of discussion.
-
I would bet that 90 percent of this site would say that the Dell hole at Lahinch is a great example of quirk. On the other hand, if Tom Fazio built the same hole on his next course, I would guess that 90 percent of this site would hate it and it would generate 20 pages of discussion.
True that!
Kalen...where is that last picture from? That is neat!!
-
I would bet that 90 percent of this site would say that the Dell hole at Lahinch is a great example of quirk. On the other hand, if Tom Fazio built the same hole on his next course, I would guess that 90 percent of this site would hate it and it would generate 20 pages of discussion.
True that!
Kalen...where is that last picture from? That is neat!!
That's Black Rock in CDA, Idaho.
But be careful about what you "like", you might get labeled an "Engophyte" ;D
-
Kalen...
I can't help what I like, God made me what I am and I've found if I fight it, it just makes it worse. 8)
Regardless, I'd love to hit that shot at Blackrock. It looks really neat.
-
Kalen...
I can't help what I like, God made me what I am and I've found if I fight it, it just makes it worse. 8)
Regardless, I'd love to hit that shot at Blackrock. It looks really neat.
I was fortunate to play it...the hole is nothing short of fantastic and thrilling.
As for me, I bounced my approach shot off one of the rocks but still saved single bogey! ;D
-
It may just be me, but I'm struggling to see anything quirky in most of the pics on this page.
As with a lot of terms and catchphrases, it gets overused to the point that it no longer means anything.
-
Quirk, like beauty, seems to be in the eye of the beholder. I would bet that 90 percent of this site would say that the Dell hole at Lahinch is a great example of quirk. On the other hand, if Tom Fazio built the same hole on his next course, I would guess that 90 percent of this site would hate it and it would generate 20 pages of discussion.
Can you point to anything in his work that would lead you to believe that Fazio would design anything like that?
-
Scott...
Why don't you define quirk and/or post a picture of what you think quirk is? I'm finding this thread is useful in showing that we all think different things are quirky. To me the Sitwell green looks quirky, per your comments you don't. I find Tobacco Road quirky...again per your comments you don't.
What is quirky to you?
-
David,
I was trying to make a point aboiut personal bias. I was speaking in hypotheticals in regard to Fazio and not hinting at an actual hole he has designed.
Interestingly, I think you helped make my point. The mere use of Fazio in a hypothetical comes at the peril of having to use his portfolio to justify bringing his name up.
-
I have to agree with Scott; I just don't see quirk in any of the above examples.
Quirk seems to be dependent on time and geographical location and also what you've experienced. In the UK&I, none of the above examples would be regarded as quirky. I also think that what some regard as quirk (e.g. the Dell) today, would not have been regarded as quirk 100 years ago.
In my opinion, quirk equates with something unusual, perhaps surprising, and quite often a little impractical, or even "unfair". Quirk isn't manufactured, it's the result of having to make do with what you find (the Pit at NB, Dell and Klondyke at Lahinch, the sheds at TOC) and incorporating it into the layout.
The course where I learned to play has a huge rock in the middle of the LZ of a par 5. The rock couldn't be moved or covered, so it was left there. I never considered it quirky, but a visitor might think it is.
Some of the modern attempts at at quirk fail, because they are manufactured. I think Hurdzan has done a couple of courses where the foundations of an old shed are visible. I don't view this as quirky, as it could have been removed in an afternoon.
-
Mac,
I did say "most", not "all" of the pics.
I tend to agree with Donal that quirk is more often than not found rather than built. Building quirk to me is like breaking a beautiful girl's nose so she isn't as classically gorgeous.
The unique situation we're all in is that we have only our own experiences to guide us and form our views - I'd be amazed if anyone who has played any of the really quirky courses and holes of GB&I looked at the pics posted above and saw quirk in more than a couple (and the Sitwell green may well be one).
Perhaps you might write a sentence or two above about each example describing what you find quirky about them.
-
...
Kalen...where is that last picture from? That is neat!!
No it's not. It is totally unmitigated crap.
-
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/STA72945.jpg)
[/quote]I can see how somebody might not like this, cant say I like the waterfall bit but overall I like this. Whats the feeling of others?
-
Quirk seems to be dependent on time and geographical location and also what you've experienced.
Building quirk to me is like breaking a beautiful girl's nose so she isn't as classically gorgeous.
Donal...I think you've NAILED it on why people say something is "quirky".
Scott...Freakin' classic!!!
Perhaps you might write a sentence or two above about each example describing what you find quirky about them.
Great idea, Scott. I'll do only the pictures I posted.
First off, I suppose I define quirk along the lines of something unique or peculiar, in fact I think this lines up with Webster's definition as well. So, I think right off the bat Donal is spot on regarding his thoughts. By definition, your idea of "quirk" is defined by what you've seen or experienced as inherent in the concept of quirk some is unique or peculiar. If you haven't seen it or experienced it, it is unique to you.
Sitwell Green...quirky to me because I've never seen a green anywhere near the severe.
Inwood mounds...I never seen little mounds surrounding the green in almost a perfect semi-circle. Totally unnatural looking and odd, but I kind of found it neat.
Dismal River...a bunker right in the middle of a highly contoured green. I've never seen it before or after.
Tobacco Road...That green looks to me like something Dali would paint. Kind of like a false front near the front of the green, but instead of taking you off the green it flattens out into a putting surface. Surreal bunkering surrounding it. Almost nauseating to look at for me.
Paiute Wolf...A big man-made looking mound half hiding the green, three circle bunkers varying in size but in a staight line...and the basic idea of green green grass in the middle of a mountainish desert is odd/peculiar to me.
Anyway, that is what I see there and why, to me, they are quirky. But, again, I think Donal has nailed it. It is quirky to me as I haven't seen things like that before. Perhaps others have and to them it isnt' quirky. This concept is without question why having a universally accepted standard for quirk on a golf course is next to impossible.
And, Scott...my bad, you did say "most" not "all" of the photos were not quirky. My apologies for the oversight.
-
Taking the lead of Mac,
I too looked at several definitions of quirk. In all of the definitions, I didn't see anything even remotely related to golf architecture.
So it would appear quirk will have to remain in the eye of the beholder as it pertains to golf holes. Putting conditions on it like "must not be man-made", or "must be old timing" are complete subjective personal opinion.
-
Leaving cool, natural features within the field of play that otherwise might be considered impractical is bold, creative, genius, etc to some...maybe not so much to others. Personally, I'm all for quirk. Preferably the natural kind.
The fronting dune at Friar's Head's 10th is a good example, imo.
Here's Ian Andrew's take (http://ianandrewsgolfdesignblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/10th-at-friars-head.html).
-
Here are the first three definitions of quirk from my Websters
1. A sudden twist, turn, or stroke
2. an evasion, subterfuge, or quibble
3. a peculiarity, peculiar trait, or mannerism
When I am walking through nature and see something unnatural, I could consider it "a sudden twist, turn"; "an evasion, subterfuge"; or "a peculiarity". I find the picture of Engh's Black Rock all of these. It is as if Engh doesn't understand the concept of gravity. It certainly is a subterfuge.
Therefore, I think Melvyn is correct in saying that this website is mistaken in applying the concept of quirk to the golf courses on the British Isles, as they are laid out on natural landforms, and are the opposite of an evasion or subterfuge.
-
Seems that there are two different issues:
What is quirk?
I think terms from dictionary definitions do fine here: peculiarity, idiosyncrasy, odd, distinctive. To me, quirk comes from those features that are part of a course and/or its setting that help to make it unique and memorable. Something like the bunker in the middle of a green at Dismal River (and also present at Riviera) that Mac mentioned is surely quirk.
What quirk is good?
This is really more the question. For me, natural can be really, really good, but man-made often detracts rather than adds to the experience. Good or bad is really in the eye of the beholder.
-
I'm going to disagree with the proposal that quirk needs to be natural to be good. To me, Kington is as quirky a course as I have played. It is also almost as artificial a course as I have played (at least at the greens).
-
Mac, John and Mark,
The hole that made me stop short of saying quirk can't be built is #6 at Riviera. It's unconventional and it works.
But I do think building quirk is a tightrope walk over a tank filled with mutated sea bass and I'm certain that of those who attempt it, many more fail than succeed.
-
I'm certain that of those who attempt it, many more fail than succeed.
I think you just might be correct.
-
I have to agree with Scott and Donal's earlier posts, I'm still not seeing that much quirky stuff here, some, but not much.
Perhaps a good definition of quirk would be that unless it would fit in at Painswick, its not really quirky? ;D
Cheers,
James
-
David,
I was trying to make a point aboiut personal bias. I was speaking in hypotheticals in regard to Fazio and not hinting at an actual hole he has designed.
Interestingly, I think you helped make my point. The mere use of Fazio in a hypothetical comes at the peril of having to use his portfolio to justify bringing his name up.
Fazio's name caught my eye in your post because, while you were using him to make a hypothetical point, to me his style is characterized by its utter lack of quirk so it seemed out of place.
The problem is that if you start with the assumption that someone's opinion is the result of a bias then a discussion has nowhere to go. The type of people that come to this website are not a random sampling of golfers, by and large most of them have a similar outlook on golf course architecture and the word outlook is not a synonym for bias.