Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Kirk on February 23, 2011, 08:19:16 PM
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It seems I get an idea for a significant post every year or so. I've been writing an essay called "Inside The Mind Of A Critic". Perhaps John Kavanaugh's recent thread asking if we considered ourselves true critics prompted the idea. I can't remember. I've been going through a difficult, introspective period of life, and the essay reflects that. I'm apprehensive about how the essay will be received. It is self involved, but I needed to write it, and share how I feel about being a born critic.
After this, it's back to the music blog, though I will check in daily.
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My name is John, and I'm a critic.
I was born in October, 1958, one of the last babies born in the old Stanford hospital, right off El Camino by the shopping center. My mother recognized I was unusual at a very early age, my intense gaze evident within a few weeks. Mom wasn't working at the time, and I was an exceptionally curious infant, demanding attention, demanding to know, demanding to learn. Later in life Mom told my wife Cheryl that she was completely unprepared for the task of raising me.
I was precocious. Mom kept a folder of drawings I made as a child. One, she remembered distinctly, was a bowling alley with all ten pins in proper configuration titled "Championship Bowling", properly spelled, under which she wrote "John, age 3 1/2". My Dad was, among another things, a model railroader. He built me a train set when I was 3 or 4. I became fascinated with trains, and by age 6 I had essentially memorized the entire San Francisco to San Jose commuter schedule, maybe 50-60 trains and 25 stations. I could read and do arithmetic by age 5; the contemporary wisdom was to skip children into the next grade level. I joined second grade in November 1964. Later that year, I had my tonsils taken out, and during one day recovering at home, I completed over 100 pages of problems in the second grade math book, which I finished by April.
After my train fascination subsided, I began a 10-15 year love affair with baseball statistics. My friends and I played a dice baseball game called APBA incessantly, pitting major league teams against each other, while keeping meticulous statistics of the players. Like many American men, I know thousands of useless facts about baseball. The obsession with table baseball (APBA or Strat-O-Matic) compromised my studies, and it certainly didn't help with the opposite sex. We weren’t complete couch potatoes. My friends and I played sports day in and day out. Junior high school was a glorious and simple time for me, and by 10th grade I was playing basketball several hours a day.
I was always the youngest in my class, graduating at age 16 years, 8 months. I wish my parents hadn't skipped me. It was a lost opportunity to excel among my peers. I graduated as a B+ student, with a huge differential between my English and math SAT scores. I took a year off to get strong and try to play in college.
I played college basketball and graduated with a bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering. Sounds great, but there were cracks in the armor. I loved to compete and do my best, but had no passion for engineering, only the math behind it. I developed drug and alcohol problems, and sabotaged my basketball to a significant extent. My coach once implied very directly that I was a loser. Over the years, I have confounded and disappointed bosses and girlfriends alike with a seeming indifference to love and responsibility. Drugs and alcohol were blamed for the most part, but through life I focused on a very few, impractical passions. Things like golf, basketball, statistics, music, and nature. I was never great at the practical stuff.
I barely passed college level English. My teacher, Ms. Owen, did not care for me. My grammar was terrible, and I never had a good idea to write about. But as college progressed, I was increasingly drawn to writing, volunteering to write the engineering papers that accompanied each experiment. Maybe it was a chip on my shoulder, seeing that flaw in my education that must be remedied. Daddy was a technical writer, after all. There was a growing desire to express myself accurately through the logic of language. By age 25 I was misspelling a word about once a year.
I struggled for years to find a productive outlet. A basketball book idea failed to get off the ground; I spent years chatting online while not playing househusband. Family friend John VanderBorght invited me to join GolfClubAtlas in September of 2003. He knew I loved analyzing golf courses, and thought I would enjoy meeting like-minded people. As a young man, I watched “Shell’s Wonderful World Of Golf” on TV. I played a couple of golf table games, including "Thinking Man's Golf", which featured a course of eighteen great American golf holes. I started playing golf at age 21, and was fascinated and motivated to play the best parks. I bought Golf Digest’s “100 Greatest Golf Courses, and Then Some”. I traveled to play good courses. Playing Royal Dornoch in 1998 and Bandon Dunes in 1999 enlightened me to the enhanced complexity of a firm, windy playing field.
In 2005, I made the simple observation that the enjoyment of golf shots correlates closely to the time it takes a ball to come to rest. Tom Doak liked the idea, and asked me to write an article for Links magazine. I am grateful to Tom; the experience gave me confidence that I had something to say. I began to think of myself as a writer.
Today I have two great projects to work on. The golf architecture book is on hold, since the iPod collection blog is so fun. Like baseball statistics, a pop music collection uses my big memory and satisfies a need to evaluate and categorize. Every song is rated. Most importantly, I am practicing the art of writing, reveling in the puzzle of stringing together the most logical and lyrical words.
Recently, a perceptive friend of mine noted my unusual traits: precocity, a computer-like retention of facts, the narrow focus on very few subjects, plus some limitations in my ability to read social cues. She suggested I might have Asperger's Syndrome, a mild version of autism. After resisting the idea for a few months, I read this sentence in the Mayo Clinic description of the affliction:
"Showing an intense obsession with one or two specific, narrow subjects, such as baseball statistics, train schedules, weather or snakes."
I also exhibit many other listed symptoms. I took an online Autism Spectrum Quotient test, and scored near that arbitrary line where those who score higher are typically identified as "Aspies". I read the book “Parallel Play" by Tim Page, a man with Asperger's Syndrome who struggled to find his place in society, but is now a recognized music critic and professor of musicology. His condition is more severe; he struggles with depression and anxiety, whereas I’ve learned to combat depression with physical exercise and menial tasks. Tim Page’s writing is beautiful, more refined and eloquent than I could hope for.
“With collected energy and obvious confidence and, yes, with a blinkered attitude toward life’s rich rewards, they go their own way, the way to which their own talents have directed them from childhood. Thus, the truth of the old adage is proved again: good and bad in every character are just two sides of the same coin.”
-- Hans Asperger
I have a robust circle of friends, but I tend to alienate others with a severe sense of justice and need for “the truth”, tangible evidence to support one’s views. But good social grace does not require the undiminished truth. It requires pleasant interaction. I struggle with that. I look for friends able to quickly dispense with pleasantries and begin serious discussion. People are often guarded and nervous in my presence, feeling their every thought and action is under intense scrutiny. It’s not the case, but that’s not the point.
Golf is mathematical, explainable in terms of distance and trajectory, friction and elasticity. Analyzing golf is intoxicating, but the individualistic nature of playing the game does not suit me well. My ego has limitations, and has trouble handling the responsibility of defeating a competitor. It’s hard to beat somebody I don’t know. I’ve learned how to handle competition reasonably well, knowing I’ll be shaky over the first few short putts. I felt much more comfortable playing basketball with known teammates, where I could hide within the team structure and unselfishly help to create that synergy which maximizes the team’s talents. I miss basketball so much.
"It seems that for success in science and art," he wrote, "a dash of autism is essential."
-- Hans Asperger
My new self-knowledge is a double-edged sword. I’ve always had this powerful memory, which manifests itself in middle age by an increasing capability to synthesize that data into new ideas. I have lots of stories to tell, which means lots of things to write about. It’s great to feel the precocious child within reemerge. At the same time, I’m struggling with arrogance, believing my worldview is clearer than my fellow man. I’ve been very impatient and intolerant lately.
If I had a nickel for every time somebody said “glass half empty”. Friends have referred to me as their “most miserable friend.” I’m just wired that way, not programmed to take things lightly.
I am programmed to categorize, analyze, and evaluate. Music, sports, and a woman’s physique are my favorites, but a good golf course makes a worthy subject as well. A complex, living entity, a golf course should reside comfortably upon its natural setting. It should be beautiful and enjoyable to walk. A good golf course demands a variety of shots, while offering the player visual cues to prompt the imagination. I like to imagine the ideal shot beforehand, execute and note the result, judging my level of execution against the result. I pay attention to my playing partner’s shots and results as well. My experience playing the West Links at North Berwick was sublime in this regard. The resulting position of my ball, measured against my execution of the desired shot, was magic that day. How perfect it all seemed.
When evaluating a golf course, it helps if a host is not overbearing, and allows his guest to interpret and play the golf course without guidance. When I host a guest, I try to only answer questions, though there are times when guidance should be given, such as “aim way right” on the tee shot on #4 at Stone Eagle.
“In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. Last night, I experienced something new, an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau’s famous motto: Anyone can cook. But I realize that only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere. It is difficult to imagine more humble origins than those of the genius now cooking at Gusteau’s, who is, in this critic’s opinion, nothing less than the finest chef in France. I will be returning to Gusteau’s soon, hungry for more.”
-- Anton Ego, in “Ratatouille”
Negative criticism can be delivered in a sensitive fashion. At a minimum, a thoughtful explanation should accompany any critique. A nice way to criticize is to use a positive example. We can identify our enjoyment of the sloped putting surfaces at one course to suggest a criticism of a subject course’s flat or dull greens. It is essential to be kind and diplomatic when publicly evaluating golf courses, since these are major business ventures, and negative publicity can damage a club’s reputation.
Asking access to desired courses to further my education now feels too intrusive. Besides, I know what I like. I used to ask a favor every now and then. Last year I asked a longtime friend and GCA member for a favor, which could not be granted, and I felt pretty sheepish and stupid afterwards. No more access requests from me. I have great places to play, and good friends that augment my personal “rotation”.
However, I love to analyze great golf courses, and gladly accept invitations when possible. It’s nice to feel wanted and appreciated. I’m competitive about course analysis, too. I’ll match my ability to analyze architecture with anyone here, except those who build courses for a living. My need to analyze, coupled with a mathematical education and ample experience playing different courses, gives me confidence that I excel at course analysis. Most veteran GolfClubAtlas members are great course analysts, with a few years of experience, have their “degree” in course analysis, and do an excellent job analyzing courses.
I’m fortunate to be a member of a couple of very nice golf clubs, and I’ve spent the last few years existing in upper echelons of society. In recent months I’m struggling with that lofty position. I didn’t earn my way into the club, unless living below your means counts. I don’t agree with the worldview of an overwhelming majority of golf club members. I don’t like the way the American meritocracy is currently structured, and I don’t fit in well. But I am grateful to those friends I have made, many through GolfClubAtlas, who understand me and want to play the game respectfully, while sharing all that is worth knowing.
“It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one’s life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than ‘Try and be a little kinder.’”
-- Aldous Huxley (near the end of his life)
Just a couple weeks before the 2000 Open Championship, Tiger Woods came to Pumpkin Ridge and conducted a golfing clinic, an hour long session after a short ceremony to commemorate his 1993 U.S. Amateur championship. During the friendly chat, Tiger told a story about his early fascination with golf. His father would put him in a high chair, in the garage where Dad hit balls into a net. Tiger would intently follow each shot from the mat into the net, while his mother stood and fed Tiger a spoonful of food after each shot. This is how Kultida Woods fed Tiger when he was 10-12 months old.
Later in the session, Tiger showed how to hit the ball in a low, boring trajectory, by maintaining wrist supination through the hitting zone. After a few consecutive tight draws, with no shot rising more than 20 feet off the ground, he turned to the crowd with a wry smile and said, “How do you think that’ll work at St. Andrews?”
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I don't care how you got so damn wealthy, but I am curious why you didn't tell us.
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That's an excellent essay, John. Congratulations. Thank you for sharing.
I'll leave my deeper or at least more personal thoughts for when we get together for golf and drinks. I'm not uncomfortable getting right to the heart of the matter.
You wrote: "I’ve always had this powerful memory, which manifests itself in middle age by an increasing capability to synthesize that data into new ideas."
In my opinion, that is called Imagination. (That capital "I" is intentional). It is a gift, and an increasingly rare one.
Peter
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I don't care how you got so damn wealthy, but I am curious why you didn't tell us.
I'm surprised, John. I would've thought you knew better.
Peter
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I don't care how you got so damn wealthy, but I am curious why you didn't tell us.
I'm surprised, John. I would've thought you knew better.
Peter
What? Easy money is a much tougher habit to kick than drugs.
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John Kirk,
That was a fascinating essay and thanks for sharing. I have always enjoyed your essays and our IM exchanges. On a night when I am having renewed interest in American Idol doing the Beatles @ The Love Show in Vegas (on your Ipod??), I was not expecting this type of essay at GCA.com.
Having spent the last 13 years with an Autistic son, I was pretty sure by the third paragraph that you had Aspergers tendencies with the model train history. Getting back to GCA, I am curious why you have such a strong preference for modern courses over the "Old Dead Guy" courses that I personally prefer. I would think that that the randomness in nature of the older courses rather than crafted nature of modern courses would be fascinating to you. I recognize that you single out North Berwick in your essay, so I am saying this from past experiences of reading and exchanging with you.
By the way, the 1964 Phillies were my favorite Strat-O-Matic team !!
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Hello John.
“The practical success of an idea, irrespective of its inherent merit, is dependent on the attitude of the contemporaries. If timely it is quickly adopted; if not, it is apt to fare like a sprout lured out of the ground by warm sunshine, only to be injured and retarded in its growth by the succeeding frost.”
a Nikola Tesla quote
I'd add that an occaisional fault to ground, while shocking, is truly insightful. You draw power inductively and the current, must flow somewhere and the critic must be willing to remove his insulation or is it isolation..
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John,very interesting and thoughtful.It seems uplifting because you seem to be comfortable in your skin and from what you say that was not always the case? hit home on several fronts: I had thinking mans golf.To this day I love trains and particularly metro maps,airline maps and schedules and golf course maps.No two people are alike,nor are our brains.Thanks for sharing.
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John,
That was truly a wonderful essay and very well written. It takes courage to post personal details on the worldwide web, especially ones which people don't fully understand. So now I have to ask the question that others have to be thinking:
Is Seth Raynor your favorite architect? :)
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John Kirk,
That was a fascinating essay and thanks for sharing. I have always enjoyed your essays and our IM exchanges. On a night when I am having renewed interest in American Idol doing the Beatles @ The Love Show in Vegas (on your Ipod??), I was not expecting this type of essay at GCA.com.
Having spent the last 13 years with an Autistic son, I was pretty sure by the third paragraph that you had Aspergers tendencies with the model train history. Getting back to GCA, I am curious why you have such a strong preference for modern courses over the "Old Dead Guy" courses that I personally prefer. I would think that that the randomness in nature of the older courses rather than crafted nature of modern courses would be fascinating to you. I recognize that you single out North Berwick in your essay, so I am saying this from past experiences of reading and exchanging with you.
By the way, the 1964 Phillies were my favorite Strat-O-Matic team !!
C Gus Triandos
1B Dick Stuart
2B Cookie Rojas
SS
3B Richie Allen
LF Don Demeter
CF Johnny Callison
RF Tony Gonzalez
SP Chris Short, Jim Bunning, Bo Belinsky
Best I can do without referring to a book. How did I do?
Like I told Sean Arble over an IM, I am a champion of modern courses, but don't attempt to exclude classic courses from my travels. Nowadays I just like to play with friends. Doesn't matter where.
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Hello John.
“The practical success of an idea, irrespective of its inherent merit, is dependent on the attitude of the contemporaries. If timely it is quickly adopted; if not, it is apt to fare like a sprout lured out of the ground by warm sunshine, only to be injured and retarded in its growth by the succeeding frost.”
a Nikola Tesla quote
I'd add that an occaisional fault to ground, while shocking, is truly insightful. You draw power inductively and the current, must flow somewhere and the critic must be willing to remove his insulation or is it isolation..
Steve,
I'm sorry. It is unclear to me what you are trying to say, unless you are saying that a person needs to have an open mind. If that is the case, my mind is as open as the next, but be prepared to show proof.
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John,
That was truly a wonderful essay and very well written. It takes courage to post personal details on the worldwide web, especially ones which people don't fully understand. So now I have to ask the question that others have to be thinking:
Is Seth Raynor your favorite architect? :)
Alex,
I like Tom Doak best. Perhaps Alister MacKenzie second best. I like beautiful natural settings, and place a high value on the quality of the walk. Perhaps you aren't asking a serious question.
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John,
Thanks for sharing that meandering set of thoughts -- connected as narratve by your honesty and your willigness to explore diverse aspects of what links your private life and and your public interets.
The ability to reflect on one's singular interests/obsessions/avocations is what ultimately distinguishes a true Aspie from a partial one, though as with all diagnostic terms there are no clear margins but penumbral overlaps and interlaps. There's lovely recent memoir along these lines I'd suggest: John Elder Robison: Look Me in the Eyes: My Life with Asperger's (2007).
Having grown up with an OCD mechanical and electrical engineer for a father, I've become very attuned to the ubiquity of such traits. Some folks are more productive than others with it. I know of one very well known golf course architect who is squarely in that camp. But if you find an outlet and a publicly acceptable (i.e. legal) outlet for that, then great, you're on your way towards genius or virtuoso status. Or at least peace of mind.
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Some engineers are perfectly normal.
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John Kirk,
Very well done. I had to cheat and use Google. Bobby Wine was the shortstop on the "64 Phillies. Here is a great excerpt of the pain that team inflicted on Philadelphians:
What I learned from ‘64 was that no matter how good things look, no matter how smoothly life is going, no matter how close you are to success, something will happen at the very end to ruin everything. That’s what a calamitous choke can do to an impressionable kid. So for the Phils to choke and miss the playoffs the last two seasons truly sucks, but compared to the choke of 40 years ago, it was nothing at all.
http://missioncreep.com/mw/phils64.htm
Perhaps the Merion threads here were a nice release for some!!
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Mike,
Don't you root for the Yankees now?
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Mike,
Don't you root for the Yankees now?
No.
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That's right, not nearly New England enough. Probably a proud owner of a pink Boston Red Sox hat.
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John,
Very interesting essay. Thanks for sharing. I had my wife read it last night and her repsonse was, "no wonder you're on that site all the time."
Can you provide a link to your music blog?
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That's right, not nearly New England enough. Probably a proud owner of a pink Boston Red Sox hat.
JC- MLB has to employ hundreds of extra staffers in their licensing department just to keep up with the dizzying array of styles and colors after Boston finally won a couple of championships after a 100 year drought. Glow in the dark is currently the rage. Grin inserted.
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John,
Very interesting essay. Thanks for sharing. I had my wife read it last night and her repsonse was, "no wonder you're on that site all the time."
Can you provide a link to your music blog?
What did she see that would explain your interest in the site? Are you like the guy in Fight Club that enjoys jumping into other peoples pain? What is John trying to teach us here?
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A wonderful read John K and thank you very much for sharing. I can certainly relate to some of the things you write about and found your essay to be very helpful.
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John,
Very interesting essay. Thanks for sharing. I had my wife read it last night and her repsonse was, "no wonder you're on that site all the time."
Can you provide a link to your music blog?
What did she see that would explain your interest in the site? Are you like the guy in Fight Club that enjoys jumping into other peoples pain? What is John trying to teach us here?
http://theperfectipodcollection.wordpress.com
Music for baby boomers. Next up is Steve Winwood, on hold until I wrote this nonsense, which was in fact, kinda painful.
John, your remark is quite curious. I thought you'd see the main point, which is to suggest an innate desire to analyze, perhaps a common trait among some Golf Club Atlas members.
By the way, I think of myself as pretty normal. I'm not off the charts weird. I like girls and sports and debating the merits of golf courses. And self-deprecation.
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Hi, my name is Terry, and I'm a critic.
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This morning a question can to me -- Does anyone think that the person John is describing does indeed have the 'mind of a critic'?
Personally, I don't think so -- though I'd suggest that it is a knife-edge between critic and creator, and a matter of intention.
On the other hand, I'm reminded of Edmund Wilson (I think) -- excellent critic who was tormented by the thought that he wasn't 'creative', as was someone like Ernest Hemmingway. Wilson concluded that it was a matter/difference of temperament that could not be bridged.
Brad K - interesting (and good, I think) analysis of John's essay and how/why it works. But for my tastes, if only more writers had the talent and taste to create/utilize such a subtle -- and true -- narrative engine. IMO, writers of all kinds often forget or don't realize that their readers have a good sense of what is artificial and false, and they have an aversion to it -- even if they rarely express it in those terms.
Like with the golf course we like here, I can't explain or describe 'the authentic' but I know it when I see it.
Peter
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By the way, I'm not sure what to do with this newfound information, this diagnosis of my mental makeup. It helps explain me, but doesn't change anything. It makes for a good story, and I like telling stories.
All in unison: Hi Terry!
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For those of you who have not checked it out, I would highly recommend John's music blog. His analysis of the artists on his ipod is thoughtful and thoroughly documented. There is also the same kind of writing that appears in this post: personal, introspective and honest (sometimes painfully so).
John Kirk-Having played one round of golf with you at Kingsley, I will confirm that you are well within the acceptable norms of weirdness.
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John,
I was asking Ben the question because the very few times I have asked my wife to read this site it was for a specific reason. I have not had the chance to review your essay outside of mobile devices and will respond in full when I can. We are only weird if we choose to hang with people unlike ourselves.
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Great. Thanks John, just what I needed, another man-crush in my life.
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Great. Thanks John, just what I needed, another man-crush in my life.
Ha, ha - good one, Charlie. And that tells me you're man enough to admit to man crushes! Trouble is we live is such prosaic times -- if we were around in 500 BC, we would be describing it as "philios" (as oppossed to agape or eros) and would thus be feeling pretty proud instead of mildly embarrassed.
Of course, if we were around back then we'd probably not have any time for discussion boards, only for getting ready to fight the Spartans (eeeck!) or maybe listening to Socrates.
Poison?! That means's I'm going to die.
Well yes, but what are you worried about Socrates? I thought you said everything is eternal.
I meant "heavy things" -- rocks, and statues...
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This is a little scary:
I own two model train sets (L&N passenger trains circa 1950).
I played Strat-O-Matic baseball as a kid and kept statistics and league records.
I still own my Thinking Man's Golf game and designed numerous courses on posterboard to play.
Nice work, John. I admire an honest man.
Mike
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Hi, my name is Terry, and I'm a critic.
Hi, my name is Ryan and I am a cynic and just love playing golf....but this site and my growing golf architecture reading collection is slowly turning me into a critic....and I'm not sure whether I like it or love it.
But, I was really hoping that Terry would write his life store on here. Damn publc service. :)
That said, John, great read and thanks for sharing. I always find reads like this so interesting as I am the exact opposite.
I hope to play golf sometime.
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John,
I like the essay. I took the spectrum quotient test and it just reaffirmed a lot of things I've known for awhile. And though it's not an excuse, it is an explanation as to why people react to me the way they sometimes do. I was not blessed with self-awareness, especially when it comes to speaking about golf courses.
I find that the more I want to learn about all of this stuff, the more critical I become. It is hard to remain so exuberant and positive the more you learn. I wish I could bottle the attitude I first had about being a student of golf courses and not a critic. Maybe this is the burden of the critic.
Thanks for being so honest with us.
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John,
I am bothered by this quote taken from your essay:
"However, I love to analyze great golf courses, and gladly accept invitations when possible. It’s nice to feel wanted and appreciated. I’m competitive about course analysis, too. I’ll match my ability to analyze architecture with anyone here, except those who build courses for a living."
If you are so good at analyzing architecture why did you join Stone Eagle?
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John Kav,
I thought it was fascinating that John bared his soul on the forum. It's part of what makes this such a unique place. My point to her was with regard to the human side of things. It's not every day you stumble across an essay written with so much introspection.
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John Kav,
I thought it was fascinating that John bared his soul on the forum. It's part of what makes this such a unique place. My point to her was with regard to the human side of things. It's not every day you stumble across an essay written with so much introspection.
Exactly, that is why the only things I have shown my wife from this site were the writings of Dr. Childs and the pictures of Anthony.
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John,
Enjoyed both ...essay and blog.....
Mike Y
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John,
I am bothered by this quote taken from your essay:
"However, I love to analyze great golf courses, and gladly accept invitations when possible. It’s nice to feel wanted and appreciated. I’m competitive about course analysis, too. I’ll match my ability to analyze architecture with anyone here, except those who build courses for a living."
If you are so good at analyzing architecture why did you join Stone Eagle?
Because Stone Eagle just looks and plays sweeter every day, my friend. Perhaps you'd like to play it three times and see. Nice architecture, and I can walk it every now and then. It's so beautiful, and should continue to gain acceptance and credibility.
With respect to the arrogant, competitive remarks about golf analysis, a friend who reviewed the essay before I posted noted the harsh nature of that statement. I left it in anyway. I tried to make arrogance/confidence a recurring theme.
Gotta go! Back later, and thanks so much for participating in this thread.
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John,
Honestly I'm shocked someone reviewed your essay before it was posted. I just figured you used the same editor as Wayne and Tom.
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I concur with everything the esteemed Mr. Kirk wrote about himself, except he omitted the part about how many diet sodas he drinks throughout the day.
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...I’ve always had this powerful memory, which manifests itself in middle age by an increasing capability to synthesize that data into new ideas....
As, I have noticed.
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Generally down to a single diet Coke each morning before switching to Lipton tea.
Hey, John...why are you busting my balls so hard on this? What's the point? You started a couple threads recently, one asking whether you are a critic, and one asking why anybody would want to play with you. I was just answering your question.
Ben K., I only "bared my soul" to make the case for Asperger's. Also, to suggest I don't have much of a filter, and what you see as "baring my soul" doesn't seem that personal to me. I contend there are several contributors here that share this mental organization, or whatever you want to call it. It comes with the territory.
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Hey, John...why are you busting my balls so hard on this? What's the point? You started a couple threads recently, one asking whether you are a critic, and one asking why anybody would want to play with you. I was just answering your question.
John,
Is was not my intention to bust your balls. When I first read your essay I was confused what you wanted from us. Unlike most on here, I didn't feel obligated to say something so you could feel better about yourself and I could go on with my life like I did a good deed. You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are.
I get that you like numbers and stats and all that crap that engineers find easy to function around. What I don't get, and what you didn't expose is why you are qualified to tell anyone what is better for them then they can discover for themselves. You see, I respect people who play the critic con game to feed their family rather than earn an honest living. What I have trouble with are those who believe they have the gift of universal taste discernment. When I asked if anyone thought they were a critic is was a fools game to see who would answer. I'm sorry you got caught up in it as it was never my intention to embarrass you.
Damn, and you think you got problems.
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You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are.
You really are in fantasy land. What is it like in Jakaworld? Gib, Gib where are you !! LOL.
If you find two other people here who think you are similar to John Kirk, I will pay your dues at Hotchkiss this season and support your application to The Seth Raynor Society.
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You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are.
You really are in fantasy land. What is it like in Jakaworld? Gib, Gib where are you !! LOL.
If you find two other people here who think you are similar to John Kirk, I will pay your dues at Hotchkiss this season and support your application to The Seth Raynor Society.
Ahhhhh........no!
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You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are.
You really are in fantasy land. What is it like in Jakaworld? Gib, Gib where are you !! LOL.
If you find two other people here who think you are similar to John Kirk, I will pay your dues at Hotchkiss this season and support your application to The Seth Raynor Society.
What did John ever do to you. It's not that big of a stretch.
An interesting turn of events happened since my last post. I'm heading out for a whirlwind trip from Omaha to Denver and called Adam Clayman about Awarii Dunes. I didn't call him as a critic but took value in his opinion which I am using to formulate my trip options.
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Thank you, John. I've got a lot to work with here.
I don't "want" anything from the group, except for them to read my essay. I want them to think about it. I fancy myself a writer these days, and now and then I think up a good story to tell. In my opinion, a good story makes people think; hopefully the readers will interpret the story in different ways. I was quite nervous about posting this essay. It is a wild story to post here, with seemingly distant ties to golf course analysis, but it has served its purpose. The responses are varied and interesting. My theory is that analytical people like me populate this site.
I did not intend to make this a sob story about my life. I have received a few friendly messages from longtime friends suggesting I'm too hard on myself. I am compelled to see the flaws, highlight the mistakes I've made, but the greater message I'm trying to convey is: I'm 52, I'm still learning about myself every year, I'm still figuring out what to do with that knowledge, and I'm equipped to do this better than you can. And yes, I really like girls.
In the Ratatouille quote, the great critic Anton Ego says:
"But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is more meaningful than our criticism designating it so."
If we are not here to judge and assess golf courses, why does Golf Club Atlas exist? I thought the purpose of the website, the overriding passion of this website, is to analyze and evaluate what makes golf enjoyable. It is not a fool's game, as you suggest. There are tangible, measurable aspects of golf courses which compel many of us to evaluate them.
I've been collecting music since I was a kid, and when I received my first iPod for Christmas in 2004, I started transferring music into it. The project snowballed into a full blown quest to create the ideal collection for a typical guy my age. What methodology do I use to create the best collection, without spending undue time reviewing music to identify the best songs?
I refer to music reviews, and analyze the writing of critics before me who've already done the strenuous work of identifying the best songs. I take their suggestions and filter them through my own lens to determine my list. That's the only way I have a fighting chance to present the reader with a strong list of songs to suggest.
Similarly, we use this website to identify which golf courses sound good to us, and seem worth the effort and money to play. Critics matter because they help us narrow the list, so we can find what we like best without excessive investigation.
Now, you and I engaged in what I consider a fine debate by comparing The Riviera and Sand Hills golf courses. You are clearly capable of engaging in debate and criticism. Like me, you choose to critique in a positive manner, though it's hard to find fault with the two grand subjects. It was great fun, and I loved participating. But I must ask you, if you are not here to evaluate golf courses, why do you participate?
I do not have the gift of universal taste discernment. I am programmed to evaluate and assess. I am competitive about it.
"But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new."
Several people latched onto this part of the Anton Ego speech, thinking I was alluding to my support for new courses. I knew it was there, but it wasn't trying to make a big deal about it. I like all golf courses.
If I had to write it again, I might have left out my disillusionment with the country club social scene. But I'm a bit weary of it. I'm tired of golf in general. I've earned my degree in course analysis, I've played the best I'll ever play, and there's nothing left except to make friends. However, there's a subtle, secondary message I'm trying to make. Golf Club Atlas is a very exclusive club, where we are able to gain access to many of the country's best golf clubs. If you are not here to "promote frank commentary on golf courses", Ran Morrissett's own words, then why are you, meaning all participants, here?
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"I'm tired of golf in general. I've earned my degree in course analysis, I've played the best I'll ever play, and there's nothing left except to make friends."
John,
You are not the first person who I have seen enter this site as an enthusiastic golfer and end up a tired critic. Somewhere in there is this fools game that I have been trying to identify for years.
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(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/IMG_1063.jpg)
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You are not the first person who I have seen enter this site as an enthusiastic golfer and end up a tired critic. Somewhere in there is this fools game that I have been trying to identify for years.
"Of course there are still those who resist the tide and cling to the ways they’ve always known, who look at multiple channels and only see fragmentation, who look at millions of people talking about what’s important to them and only perceive self-indulgent and distracting noise."
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You are not the first person who I have seen enter this site as an enthusiastic golfer and end up a tired critic. Somewhere in there is this fools game that I have been trying to identify for years.
"Of course there are still those who resist the tide and cling to the ways they’ve always known, who look at multiple channels and only see fragmentation, who look at millions of people talking about what’s important to them and only perceive self-indulgent and distracting noise."
I have never been on facebook so I skipped the movie. So why the quote and is it an insult or a compliment?
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One John writes like Aaron Sorkin and one John writes like Adam Sandler. Both are entertaining, but one really makes me think.
If the fact that both of you post on a discussion group makes you similar, well maybe I am a critic as I want to dig a little deeper than surface level BS.
Sorkin is a genius, so go see the movie. It has nothing to do with Facebook.
PS. You have 732 post on Golf Course Facebook.
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.
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(deleted, and discussed with Don offline)
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I enjoy the process of an opinion expressed and watching people react to it. Very few of you know me well enough to dislike me. I do not not mind taking criticism for what I say, because I learn things that way. I am not sure that I believe all that I say either. Everyone has a right to believe what they want to and it may be almost as valid as what I believe, but please do not stop disagreeing and do not stop having opinions, for it is that, that helps me to learn about this sport that I love.
John do not stop writing, I enjoy reading it whether I agree with everything that is said or not. I also enjoy tHe responses.
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I find myself going back and forth a little here on the critic side.The thoughtful critic is the one to identify ,the one that matters.I have conditioned myself in my somewhat public profession to follow the thoughts of "the man in the arena...it is not the critic who counts..."But sometimes critics speak truth.It is figuring out who to listen to and learn from.Otherwise,we end up with the lesson of the emperor's clothes. so John,you have made me think.
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The fact is, we need critics. If I didn't have critics whose judgement I trusted I'd go broke trying to find movies I liked. Now, maybe some would say that if I can't afford to see every movie then I can't really afford to see any movie, but that's not how I choose to live my life. The same is true of golf courses on a much larger financial scale.
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The fact is, we need critics. If I didn't have critics whose judgement I trusted I'd go broke trying to find movies I liked. Now, maybe some would say that if I can't afford to see every movie then I can't really afford to see any movie, but that's not how I choose to live my life. The same is true of golf courses on a much larger financial scale.
Charlie,
I only read movie reviews after I have seen a film. Given modern trailers and promotion it is often difficult to not know how a movie ends before you have purchased the popcorn. Perhaps 20 years ago you would have had a point but today we all have so much information at our finger tips that critics have become obsolete. The only people who need critics are those who wish to raise little critic babies themselves.
Just curious, which movie have you recently avoided thanks to the critics that you may have seen otherwise.
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Charlie,
Obviously since I am a member of both a Fazio and Nicklaus course I don't listen to critics opinions. I was just trying to think where I would play if I did and how much less I would enjoy golf. Interesting, isn't it, that I would end up like John Kirk, tired of the game thinking I had already seen the best I will ever see. If I am content where I play golf and believe that they are great courses why do I need a critic to burst my bubble?
Aren't you a little ashamed you said you need critics.
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Charlie,
Obviously since I am a member of both a Fazio and Nicklaus course I don't listen to critics opinions.
John,
You have got to be kidding. Okay you joined Victoria before your first post at GCA.com but there are more than a few here who think you joined Dismal River specifically to "stick it to the man/rater/critic at GCA.com and Golfweek" !!
To be fair, you have been Dismal's greatest fan and you have obviously been a positive force for the club. Maybe you can be the one to get Jack Nicklaus to do an interview here when the course settles into its most recent changes.
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:<))
Analytical thought is one thing, being a professional student is another..
Relying on a critic's voice can be like taking directions from a stranger.. but beware of mule skinners if you're real smart..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWGAdzn5_KU
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What is a competitive critic? I don't understand.
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Criticism in its traditional form is not about complaining. It's about explaining, elaborating, pointing to strengths, explaining why something works aestheticallly, and why some things don't work, where they could be better. It's not about dismissing things as worthless or mindlessly extolling them as ingenious. It's like any other field of study that requires discipline, study, research, field work, locating traditions, identifying trends. The fact is that anyone can have an opinion, but having an opinion doesn't make it a form of criticism without some significant work behind it. Playing golf is the easiest part of it. And if that's your primary engagement you'll make extremely limited judgments.
Various forms of new media have enabled more people than ever to be more thoughtful critics, and the line between professional critic and amateur critic has effectively been erased, which is a very good thing. But just because more people can do it doesn't mean that everyone' s judgments and opinions are based on the same evidentiary base. Some people here on GCA base their thinking on more varied experience, a more extensive engagement with the literature, the personalities, the breadth of courses, and others have extremely narrow focal points.
I find John Kirk's little memoir revealing and fascinating because he's honest about his circumstances and commitments and also that his interest comes from various forms of complex emotional engagement. If you don't love what you are looking at and you aren't moved by your involvement then your criticism and judgment suffer and you will not be taken as seriously by others -- or worse, yet, you'll just be dismissed as crank or a raving, miserable wretch. For some, that's okay -- the price we pay for the internet, for new media and for living in a democracy. But just because everyone's entitled to their opinions doesn't mean that everyone merits equal attention for their opinions.
To make a living doing this is much harder work than it seems. And while I would never claim that it's harder work than entailed by those who work in a box factory or a Dilbert office or who can't find work at all, doing the work of a critic is its own peculiar and demanding form of engagement if it's to be done well. Not that everyone needs to acknowledge or respect that, or that anyone else really cares.
The interesting thing is that the business of golf architecture has gotten better because of criticism and because many -- by no means all, maybe not even most -- architects are sensitive to criticism. Some are sensitive because they are insecure and just want to be liked, but many are sensitive because they care about their work, want to learn, appreciate an independent or fresh and honest perspective, and enjoy the back-and-forth of engaging in walking and talking with folks who have a perceptive eye, a vast memory, and a compelling engagement with the craft. Those of you who have had that experience with a designer or owner or superintendent in the field know the excitement and joy of such an engagement. It enables people to do better work, and when (some) designers respond like that in a non-defensive way, the whole craft benefits.
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Brad,
Thanks for saving this thread with an example of professional writing. For whatever reasons, based in my own insecurities, I get a kick out of watching your travels during rater camp season. There is no doubt even to a putz like me that what you do is difficult work indeed.
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Thanks for starting the thead. I decided a long time ago that I am obsessed with the game and might as well embrace that obsession and enjoy it rather than squelch it.
I became interested in architecture as a result of finding other ways to enjoy the game when the frustrations inherent in playing the game made it less enjoyable. I started out by doing a lot of reading and found that the writing I enjoyed most about the game had to do with architecture. Biographies of players are of limited interest because the pursuit of a high quality golf game is actually a pretty boring story - essentially training the body and mind to perform under pressure. Fiction on the topic is generally pretty weak. Architecture, on the other hand, is the subject with the best writing in the sport in my opinio
As a result, I often find myself alternating the way in which I enjoy the game. I find my personal struggle to play the game as well as possible the most engaging aspect of the game. Analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of a golf course, learning to take decent pictures, improving my ability to communicate by written word, learning about course maintenence, trying to understand the arcane politics of a long established country club, enjoying people I meet along the way and planning travel are other methods. I find that by alternating my focus I can enjoy the game rather than obsess about my shortcomings as a player.
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"Aren't you a little ashamed you said you need critics."
Given the various and many things of which I am rightfully ashamed, I can honestly say "no".
You asked for a recent example of movies that critics have steered me clear of. I tend to forget them rather quickly but I'll give you an older example which I remember because it led to a fight. I had read a negative review, by a critic I have been often in agreement with, of the movie Fahrenheit 911. As a result I got into a nice row with my wife over going to see it. I refused to waste my meager cash on it, she wanted to see it (and wanted me to see it). I don't regret not seeing it at all.
Actually that brings to mind another time. Same critic, different movie. My wife wanted to see The Life of David Gale. Said critic said it sucked, I acquiesced (probably in hopes of getting laid). After the movie I said "god that sucked" I didn't get laid. I should have stood my ground, at least I'd have had those hours back.
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Charlie,
Honestly, if I had married a woman who delves deeper than the front page of Yahoo News for social commentary I'd never get laid either.
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"Aren't you a little ashamed you said you need critics."
After the movie I said "god that sucked" I didn't get laid. I should have stood my ground, at least I'd have had those hours back.
Charlie - your error was in expressing your opinion before the next day. :)
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It's ALL art - design, criticism, writing. I think the word art comes from the German word for trick. The trick either works or it doesn't; You either pull it off or you don't. The difference? Talent!
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Don, that's painful to read, because there is truth in there.
My intent is not to share my troubles here. The blog has some personal stories mixed in. Sorry I have offended you.
The only thing similar about Barney and Captain Kirk is their initials.
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I disagree...I think they both speak their minds very directly and openly...rare traits in this world.
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I disagree...I think they both speak their minds very directly and openly...rare traits in this world.
OK, Two things. ;)
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I generally don't care for too much navel-gazing, but perhaps that's a function of AS and too much time on your hands.
BTW, I've heard it said that Lisbeth Salander (the girl with the dragon tattoo) has AS so please don't kick my ass, John.
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John,
You posted, "By the way, I'm not sure what to do with this newfound information, this diagnosis of my mental makeup. It helps explain me, but doesn't change anything. It makes for a good story, and I like telling stories."
I just want to thank you for putting yourself out there and raising awareness about Aspergers. A very close relative is an "Aspie." You're right about the diagnosis not changing things for the person with it, but it sure was a relief for family members to have an explanation. We could change the way we reacted to certain behaviors, and that has truly made a difference for the better for all of us.
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Thanks for increasing the awareness and sharing your Aspergers. My grandson, 12 has Aspergers. He is very smart, 131 IQ, very quirky, and lots of fun to be with. His parents have their hands full with "issues", but he's a love. Bringing awareness to others about Aspergers, why kids are so quirky or different, helps a ton.
Thanks again
Cary
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John Kirk,
I am uncertain of something from reading your essay. Have you actually been diagnosed with Aspergers, or did you diagnose yourself from doing your own research? I have good friends whose son suffers from Aspergers. I would say you function far far higher than he does.
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No, I have not been diagnosed with Asperger's, and I'm not sure I have Asperger's syndrome. However, I exhibit many of the same traits as those who do, and scored very close (30) to an arbitrary line where 80% of people who score 32 or higher are diagnosed as having Asperger's.
Perhaps that was not clear enough in the essay. I will mention it to the doctor the next time I see him, but I'm not sure it's necessary to pursue it any further.
I'm not sure what value this all has. I was trying to suggest that that I obsess over a few things, and as self-centered as it may seem, I think it helps me have a keen eye (or ear) for detail.
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John,
Great essay and thanks for sharing. You've got me thinking now about all those strat-o-matic games and stats I scribbled in notebooks back in the day. I'm going to have to dig into the Ipod blog and try and poke some holes in there if possible. I'm currently struggling with storing WAV files on my new Synology NAS drive and what it means for my ipod/car setup. I'll IM you with comments when I have 'em....
Brad,
Nice post. Your thoughts are always valued even if you did rip my old home club a new one! In hindsight, that was actually the event that got me thinking more critically about GCA.
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You know John, no offense, but people who suffer from Aspergers really suffer. If you have a borderline case of any disaese, I feel for you, but before you claim to be afflicted, why don't you find out. For all I can tell, you're just a hypochondriac looking for an excuse.
I said "no offense", and I mean that. But knowing a family that has to deal with this affliction on a daily basis, in my opinion, you're out of line at this time.
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This thread sure has gone off the rails.
BTW - I'm pretty sure I have ADD.
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You know John, no offense, but people who suffer from Aspergers really suffer. If you have a borderline case of any disaese, I feel for you, but before you claim to be afflicted, why don't you find out. For all I can tell, you're just a hypochondriac looking for an excuse.
I said "no offense", and I mean that. But knowing a family that has to deal with this affliction on a daily basis, in my opinion, you're out of line at this time.
John Cullum:
I would have to say that I think it is you who are out of line. Human personality and human traits exist on a spectrum. Yes, many folks with severe Aspergers do really suffer. John Kirk is not denying that. He is pointing out that he shares some or even many traits with Aspergers syndrome. I saw nowhere that he diminished the tragedy of those who are severely suffering...but John, himself, indicates that some of these traits may have contributed to difficulties in his own life, even if they don't measure up to the devastating difficulties of a severe Aspie.
Everyone is a critic to some degree...if you have any opinion at all, you are a critic.
Bart
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Sorry Bart, But I'm not going to be an enabler. We all have some screwed up traits. John K has had a pretty good life by any man's account. I would prefer that someone else call him out on it, but most of the participant's on golfclubatlas.com won't call out a guy who has the proper club affiliations. I have been a participant on this sight for a long time, and I have gotten to the point where I let others fight the battles, but sometimes the old sarge just needs to come in and say what has to be said
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I think my essay accurately identifies myself with Asperger-like traits, and does not conclude I have Asperger's.
"I also exhibit many other listed symptoms. I took an online Autism Spectrum Quotient test, and scored near that arbitrary line where those who score higher are typically identified as "Aspies". I read the book “Parallel Play" by Tim Page, a man with Asperger's Syndrome who struggled to find his place in society, but is now a recognized music critic and professor of musicology. His condition is more severe; he struggles with depression and anxiety, whereas I’ve learned to combat depression with physical exercise and menial tasks. Tim Page’s writing is beautiful, more refined and eloquent than I could hope for."
This has turned out to be a more sensitive subject than I imagined. My reasons for writing the piece are complex, but they have their origins in two of John Kavanaugh's threads ("Why would someone want to play with you?" and "Are you a critic?"), plus the global warming thread.
"Bared my soul to the crowd eh but oh what the cost
Most of them laughed out loud like nothing's been lost
There were hypocrites and parasites and people that drain
Tell me why must I always explain."
-- Van Morrison, "Why Must I Always Explain?"
I was angry when I first wrote this, and modified it later. There are many examples of successful people who were identified as having Asperger's, and the listed symptoms are so consistent with my personality traits that I see no need to investigate further. In fact, thinking about all this the last two or three months has made me half crazy. Half.
I wrote a story for this website, one that makes people think. This site is to "promote frank commentary on golf course architecture." I'm happy to have prompted some serious discussion about the role of a critic, and the nature of course analysis.
And Sarge, I modified things a bit so they didn't seem so angry.
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John
I don't want you to be angry, and I don't want to insult you or offend you.
For the record, I will only continue this discussion in a more private forum
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Maybe a re-statement, but as the father of an Autistic son, I appreciated John's essay and I thought his position and/or lack of position in the Autism/Aspergers world was appropriately stated.
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Intereesting thread. I took the test and scored 20:
Your score: 20
0 - 10 = low
11 - 22 = average (most women score about 15 and most men score about 17)
23 - 31 = above average
32 - 50 is very high (most people with Asperger Syndrome or high-functioning autism score about 35)
50 is maximum
Link to the test that John references:
http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/AutismSpectrumQuotient/AutismSpectrumQuotient.aspx
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9 here. Interesting test.
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You have to score 28 or higher to join Golf Club Atlas.
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29 here, though such a self-administered quiz is a weak and only vaguely suggestive diagnostic device.
Never did Strat-o-Matic baseball but had memorized all of the relevant stats in baseball and knew every stadium inside and out by the time I was 10 or 11 -- including field dimensions and seating capacity, and would draw them to scale thanks to a wonderful little guide book I got from MLB that also enabled me to build a scale model ball park with wood when I was about 13.
Then I turned to inventing my own golf board game with dice and specially created golf courses that I drew up to scale for the occasion -- based upon the best of the Met area (NY) or other golf holes i saw, watched on TV and read about.
Luckily, I gave all of that up to become a responsible adult and laborer.
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(delete - unnecessary)
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delete unnecessary
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Although I skipped a grade, invented a solitaire baseball game played with five dice (anybody else a fan of "The Universal Baseball Association?") and memorized all the sorority house phone numbers, I scored 18.
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You have to score 28 or higher to join Golf Club Atlas.
Probably why I love playing golf with a good caddy.
He just tells me where to hit it....and I do my best to comply.
Sitting there thinking about it is not my idea of fun.
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33. No surprise.
I need to play some golf. Getting my golf fix only through the internet is driving me crazy. Even my friends want me to get home so I'll stop emailing them about golf chat rooms.
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Wow - I scored 28 - a huge surprise. I know I have issues, but nothing that I would consider serious or in anyway a hinderance to carrying on with life. I wonder about the validity of this quickie.
Ciao
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30... not a huge surprise i guess...
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Is it possible we do a disservice to those actually afflicted if we run and self-diagnose ourselves using an internet test?
Not everyone who is quirky, OCD about a few things, enjoyed baseball cards and making up games before television and internet killed imagination, and doesn't like parties should be diagnosed with Aspergers. And, not every child who is exposed to television from birth and thus bored when he has to sit in front of a teacher writing on the board automatically has A.D.H.D.
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I am asonished at the breadth of opinion my son receives in portfolio reviews of his artwork by college professors and in conjunction with pieces submitted for local, regional and national competitions. I can't help but wonder if art criticism is far more complicated and subjective than the criticism of golf course architecture. After all, isn't golf course architecture more science than art? I also can't help but wondering that if I am so ignorant as to what constitutes fine art, must I also be far more clueless about golf course architecture than I care to admit.
My first inclination is to ask is if it's easier to be "wrong" when criticizing art than golf course architecture. What a stupid and clumsy question. After all isn't golf course architecture more science than art?
While I rarely offer insight on this web-site, invariably I find that few of the posters that I actually have had the privilege to play with demonstrate the kind of passion about golf course architecture that I experience. From a character trait standpoint I'm blessed to be both expressive and analytical and perhaps I fail to appreciate the approach of the more stoic critic. Not to say I don't enjoy their insight immensely.
Approaching my 53rd birthday, I've been studying golf courses for 40 years and believe I know a thing of two. Does that make me a critic? Probably not - merely a professional student.
Bogey
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I wonder what score Bill James would get?
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_9a55d71f-dd48-5c2a-b251-e55425ed77c5.html
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...After all, isn't golf course architecture more science than art? ...
... After all isn't golf course architecture more science than art?
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What on earth would make you think golf course architecture is more science than art?
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I don't know what I would do this morning without the critics who explain to me what is wrong with Anne Hathaway. We do need em.
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I don't know what I would do this morning without the critics who explain to me what is wrong with Anne Hathaway. We do need em.
John, she's a "wooo girl."
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...After all, isn't golf course architecture more science than art? ...
... After all isn't golf course architecture more science than art?
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What on earth would make you think golf course architecture is more science than art?
Angles, vectors, friction, velocity and gravity are the key elements in the game. How can they not be in its architecture?
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...After all, isn't golf course architecture more science than art? ...
... After all isn't golf course architecture more science than art?
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What on earth would make you think golf course architecture is more science than art?
Angles, vectors, friction, velocity and gravity are the key elements in the game. How can they not be in its architecture?
So all architects know about angles, vectors, friction, velocity, and gravity. Therefore, those with the most facility calculating and engineering with those clearly must produce the best courses. Therefore, we must pay great homage to Mike Nuzzo, since as an aeronautical engineer, he clearly produces the greatest courses, it's just that his output is so small that he has not been recognized as the greatest architect of the age!
Methinks the proper spelling of Bogey in your case is "Joshua Crane".
:P
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Garland,
Are you arguing that building a golf course is more art than science? Or just arguing?
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Garland,
Are you arguing that building a golf course is more art than science? Or just arguing?
Golf course design is more art than science. The evaluation of golf courses is based more on art than science. For example, an example of a wonderful golf course that recently came into play is Askernish. They simply went out and found the holes, and began mowing.
If you claim it is more science, then presumably the best scientist would produce the best golf courses. We don't celebrate the work of Tom Doak for his ability to apply science. We celebrate it for his vision in seeing how the game should be played across a landscape.
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I wonder if you're correct.
I think you'll agree that there is some of both art and science involved so you wouldn't necessarily celebrate the best scientist if they have no art.
In my opinion, a course can be stunningly beautiful and never playable due to engineering errors...but it seems less likely to be perfectly playable at all times and considered unattractive.
I would back the engineer and then try to provide help with the aesthetics if I were funding a golf course.
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...
In my opinion, a course can be stunningly beautiful and never playable due to engineering errors...but it seems less likely to be perfectly playable at all times and considered unattractive.
...
But yet those engineering errors could be rectified by a man with a shovel (and enough time ;) ), without any science coming into play.
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Engineering errors fixed with no science coming into play?
Are we on a Merion thread? You're swinging at air...
Not saying I have the answer, but poor engineering has ruined more courses than poor art has.
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From Wikipedia . . .
critic (plural critics)
A person who appraises the works of others
A specialist in judging works of art
One who criticizes; a person who finds fault
An opponent
I have never considered the fourth definition and looked the word up in my 1954 Funk and Wagnall and it didn't offer that choice.
I am not a Wiki member but the definitions could use some embellishment, methinks.
We are all shaped a priori, experiencially, environmentally, and socially to perceive objects, subjects and concepts uniquely. I would assume Don Mahaffey has a critical eye for functionality and his critique would eminate from that moreso than from the aesthetics of a golf course, giving a more complete report. I tend to glom onto his words more than most because he has good "Balance of Reason" skills - both in the field and in his writing. Some may focus more on yardages, strategies, walkabilities, naturalism, and craic!
We are all critics but the spectrum of our appreciations is too vast - and not excluding the metaconcepts from infra to ultra - to define a critic. Perhaps we need an adjective in front of the word critic. "Hi, my name is Slag and I am a $%^&ing critic."
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You have to score 28 or higher to join Golf Club Atlas.
Good thing I got in on the ground floor.
Wow - I scored 28 - a huge surprise. I know I have issues, but nothing that I would consider serious or in anyway a hinderance to carrying on with life. I wonder about the validity of this quickie.
Ciao
That's why I don't place a lot of stock in tests like this. Half the questions, I was thinking, none of the above. I hate "best fit" responses, reminds me of political polling.
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It's interesting to note that John titled the essay "Inside the mind of A critic" and not "Inside the mind of THE critic".
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Garland,
There are points in favor regarding art and aesthetics, especially in that I think the vast majority of us consider the look of a course far more than we might realize or be willing to admit. People like to be inspired, and its much easier to be inspired at a artistic masterpiece than at a course lined by condos.
However, the vast majority of issues that have anything to do with playing a golf course have more to do with science than art. Simply determining contour on a green and potential pin placements is relatively scientific. Ditto playing angles that determine strategy and drainage patterns. Now, golfers and architects might often use a pretty simple version of scientific concepts to make these things work, but its still there. That's not to mention that the course is a living organism that brings biology into play especially regarding maintenance. If you think of mathematics as an applied science, then you start including length of holes, length of walk from green to tee ;-), placement of hazards at distances likely to come into play, carry distances and I'm sure other aspects of course design in the scientific field.
So from my consideration of golf courses, its 75/25 in favor of science when all is said and done. However, if I get 75% on my accounting test tomorrow night I'll get a C, and no one on this website discusses C golf courses. So you still have to get the art right to achieve greatness. And FWIW, I originally wrote 80/20, but wanted to give art a bit more credit based on my comment that most of us underestimate art's importance.
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Engineering errors fixed with no science coming into play?
Are we on a Merion thread? You're swinging at air...
Not saying I have the answer, but poor engineering has ruined more courses than poor art has.
Perhaps I don't understand your meaning of "never playable". Do you have some for instances?
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I mean when a course can't shed water, grow grass or maintain its foundation due to some "engineering errors" in the planning stage.
The "for instances" are probably in the thousands.
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I suppose it doesn't answer the question of relative importance, but getting the science right seems to be both a necessary and a sufficient component of golf course design, while getting the art right [if there can be such a thing] seems neither necessary nor sufficient without the science.
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I mean when a course can't shed water, grow grass or maintain its foundation due to some "engineering errors" in the planning stage.
The "for instances" are probably in the thousands.
So you are just talking about gross negligence. Remember this part of this thread started with Bogey (Joshua Crane) comparing GCA critiquing to art critiquing. If a course can't grow grass, no one is going to bother critiquing it.
Courses that can shed water, that can grow grass, and that can "maintain their foundation" (whatever that means) have been created or built from the beginning of the sport with little or no science involved.
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No they haven't.
Take Pat's thread on the first page now...if you had a dead flat piece of land would you hire an engineer or an artist?
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Do you think green locations were selected for aesthetic or functional purposes in the 1800's?
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No they haven't.
Take Pat's thread on the first page now...if you had a dead flat piece of land would you hire an engineer or an artist?
A common sense artist.
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Do you think green locations were selected for aesthetic or functional purposes in the 1800's?
What has that got to do with science?
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Do you think green locations were selected for aesthetic or functional purposes in the 1800's?
What has that got to do with science?
Your answer first, please.
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Courses that can shed water, that can grow grass, and that can "maintain their foundation" (whatever that means) have been created or built from the beginning of the sport with little or no science involved.
As Jim said, no they haven't. They might have done it with less engineering required, but you need physics to understand drainage and biology to grow grass.
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We don't celebrate the work of Tom Doak for his ability to apply science. We celebrate it for his vision in seeing how the game should be played across a landscape.
Garland:
Yes, exactly. But that vision of how the game should be played across a landscape is a form of engineering, not raw art. I'm good at math, but I can't draw (or sculpt) a lick.
Engineering is not pure science, of course; the guys who treat it as pure science produce things that are often ugly to look at. It is a blend of science and art. But even the artistic part [a good sense of proportion and harmony] can be explained in mathematical terms if you want to.
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We don't celebrate the work of Tom Doak for his ability to apply science. We celebrate it for his vision in seeing how the game should be played across a landscape.
Garland:
Yes, exactly. But that vision of how the game should be played across a landscape is a form of engineering, not raw art. I'm good at math, but I can't draw (or sculpt) a lick.
Engineering is not pure science, of course; the guys who treat it as pure science produce things that are often ugly to look at. It is a blend of science and art. But even the artistic part [a good sense of proportion and harmony] can be explained in mathematical terms if you want to.
Yes, a good sense of proportion and harmony can be explained in mathematical terms. However, you don't need a mathematician to develop the formulas to enable a good sense of proportion and harmony. Would not the good artist have the good sense of proportion and harmony inherent in his make up?
I would take exception to your claim of not being able to sculpt a lick. Not only do you sculpt very well, but you do it with such a good sense of proportion and harmony that you can ask the members of this website to try to identify what you sculpted, and they fail miserably, because you have done it with such a good sense of proportion and harmony.
It's just that your chisel is very much larger than Michaelangelo's.
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As a side note. My job title has the word engineer in it. However, I consider the work I do to be artistic, not engineered.
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You have a negative connotation of the word "engineer"...that explains the lack of your usual clarity on this topic...
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You have a negative connotation of the word "engineer"...that explains the lack of your usual clarity on this topic...
How could you conclude I have a negative connotation of the word engineer? Are you an engineer? I probably have a much more negative feeling about what you are professionally than I have about engineer. For me, achieving the title of engineer was a big step up from what we used to be known as.
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A - I was completely joking, in an effort to end the discussion.
B - It occurred to me from your use of "engineered" in the post immediately prior. I wouldn't have said it other than as a needle to get you off point.
Seriously though, I meant no offense and am happy to agree to disagree on this.
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I think since Tom made an extensive study of golf courses, he internalized the sense of proportion and harmony that he speaks of. It did not come from any engineering study that he may have made.
If I were to use the scientific foundations for the area that I work in, I would produce just what he said, "things that are often ugly to look at". In my work I make no conscious effort to apply science, but instead rely on the abilities that are inherent in my make up.
However, just as Tom says about mathematical underpinnings being there in his results, you can also find the mathematical underpinnings in my results too.
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Warning!!!
An old joke . . .
What do engineers use for contraception?
Their personalities.
It's just a joke!
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That's it Slag, I'm taking you off my speed dial list!
;D
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You have to score 28 or higher to join Golf Club Atlas.
Good thing I got in on the ground floor.
Wow - I scored 28 - a huge surprise. I know I have issues, but nothing that I would consider serious or in anyway a hinderance to carrying on with life. I wonder about the validity of this quickie.
Ciao
That's why I don't place a lot of stock in tests like this. Half the questions, I was thinking, none of the above. I hate "best fit" responses, reminds me of political polling.
George
I spent several years as a special ed teacher. One of the reasons I got out was the due to the eagerness of educators and parents to label their kids with vague disorders such as emotionally impaired, dyslexic and learning disabled (ie - we don't know what is wrong only that it is wrong). I often believed it was just a ploy to drug kids up to keep them quiet. This isn't so bad if you were to actually experience what some of these kids do in school, but so many times this last form of treatment was used before real behavioral programs were put in place and believe it or not, not in conjuction with a well designed behavioral program. It was a very disheartening way of doing business and I use the word "business" because that is exactly what it felt like. In the end, I found I couldn't sign the legal documentation required for some of the kids. I felt the decision-making was more about how the school functions rather than about the kid - which flies in the face of the concept of an Individualized Education Plan. A teacher who doesn't play along doesn't last long in this business and there is always another young one on the bottom of the ladder who will follow instructions. Anyway, believe me, my first questions are what is the validity (all forms of) and reliability of these dandy little tests and those are just starter questions. Anyway again, Aspergers is one of those labels that is vague and difficult to distinguish from Autism, so I am very skeptical in thinking of it as a disability.
Ciao
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We don't celebrate the work of Tom Doak for his ability to apply science. We celebrate it for his vision in seeing how the game should be played across a landscape.
Garland:
Yes, exactly. But that vision of how the game should be played across a landscape is a form of engineering, not raw art. I'm good at math, but I can't draw (or sculpt) a lick.
Engineering is not pure science, of course; the guys who treat it as pure science produce things that are often ugly to look at. It is a blend of science and art. But even the artistic part [a good sense of proportion and harmony] can be explained in mathematical terms if you want to.
I have to criticize Tom's engineering definition: " a blend of science and art". It is science, art, and technology.. with the latter enabling the productivity and at times creativity to its implementation.
(http://www.cat.com/cda/files/876207/7/images/overview_page_shot.jpg)
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Steve,
I don't think anyone would disagree with that, other than to ask...isn't technology itself just a result of science?
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Jim,
Easy to think that way, sure, however its the system or the integrated approach used to get something done that counts, with open inputs, not just science..
Origin: Greek tekhnologiā, systematic treatment of an art or craft : tekhnē, skill; see teks- in Indo-European roots + -logiā, -logy
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I rather enjoyed reading this as G.B. Shaw rides roughshod in his musical criiticisms:
http://uh.edu/engines/epi532.htm
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Steve,
I'll accept that.
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I just took that goofy test and got a 15. That's probably the average for people with hints of both Auspergers and the Irish gift/curse of Blarney....
Shivas you should be happy, BTW i got a 17 and i think it just reinforces why we could bs for 5-10 minutes at kingsley, have some laughs and disengage without issue.. or a second thought and go play..
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I just took that goofy test and got a 15. That's probably the average for people with hints of both Auspergers and the Irish gift/curse of Blarney....
Flunked eh? Off the website with you DS! ;D
Klien stays, Schmidt goes.
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Although saying I got a 17 might not make Steve and Shivas feel good, it sure makes me feel alot better!
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...has now identified Brian Sheehy and Ben Sims as exciting new friend possibilities, sending Garland Bayley into a deep funk.
Thanks to Bob Huntley for the amusing and insightful discussion of G.B. Shaw the critic.
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Although saying I got a 17 might not make Steve and Shivas feel good, it sure makes me feel alot better!
Hey Pete,
Au contraire mon ami. You know I'd rather pop the cap on one of your garage home brews and toast our golf experiences and the venues.. than argue over and rank their design nuances.. where will the next match be?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/FH000012.jpg)
Life is good..
p.s. been to Barona lately?
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My closest friend has been diagnosed with A.S, and he is the hands down the smartest, and most beautiful person that I know. His new found understanding of how his brain operates and how it stores and receives information has been "life changing" for him.
Thanks you so much for sharing John.
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Although saying I got a 17 might not make Steve and Shivas feel good, it sure makes me feel alot better!
With my 16 I'd be happy to join that foursome.
Bogey
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...has now identified Brian Sheehy and Ben Sims as exciting new friend possibilities, sending Garland Bayley into a deep funk.
Thanks to Bob Huntley for the amusing and insightful discussion of G.B. Shaw the critic.
No wonder Ben won't answer my PMs. Maybe I'll have to PM Brian to see if he at least knows what a Dell hole is. ;D
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28 here!!!!!
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...has now identified Brian Sheehy and Ben Sims as exciting new friend possibilities, sending Garland Bayley into a deep funk.
Thanks to Bob Huntley for the amusing and insightful discussion of G.B. Shaw the critic.
No wonder Ben won't answer my PMs. Maybe I'll have to PM Brian to see if he at least knows what a Dell hole is. ;D
Sorry. I'll probably bring down the 33 club. Ask Wyatt or Colton, they'll tell the truth.
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I retook the test and scored 31 this time, versus 30 the first time. So, the test is pretty consistent from month to month.
To the foursome of Hendren, Lang, Lavallee and Shivas, may I just walk along and observe?
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...has now identified Brian Sheehy and Ben Sims as exciting new friend possibilities, sending Garland Bayley into a deep funk.
Excellent news! Of course when we meet we will now feel under immense pressure to live up to the "32 and above" characterisation, immediately dispensing with small talk, sticking to one narrow field of conversation (golf related stats) and generally behaving in a weird fashion ;)
I will try to act as if golf related stats fascinate me. Do you think "Basin Street Blues" by Louis Armstrong is a three or four star song?
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I retook the test and scored 31 this time, versus 30 the first time. So, the test is pretty consistent from month to month.
To the foursome of Hendren, Lang, Lavallee and Shivas, may I just walk along and observe?
ok by me, but where would you suggest the best venue be??? somewhere between TN, TX, CA, and IL?
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I retook the test and scored 31 this time, versus 30 the first time. So, the test is pretty consistent from month to month.
To the foursome of Hendren, Lang, Lavallee and Shivas, may I just walk along and observe?
ok by me, but where would you suggest the best venue be??? somewhere between TN, TX, CA, and IL?
How about Outer Mongolia?
:P
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ok Garland,.. when we play at Ghengis Lniks, you can forecaddy .
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I retook the test and scored 31 this time, versus 30 the first time. So, the test is pretty consistent from month to month.
To the foursome of Hendren, Lang, Lavallee and Shivas, may I just walk along and observe?
ok by me, but where would you suggest the best venue be??? somewhere between TN, TX, CA, and IL?
I believe that Ballyneal would be the geographic center of that trapezoid!
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the kid in this month's GD "Golf Saved My Life' article has Asperger's as well as one of the main characters in the book The Big Short