Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Anthony Gray on January 24, 2011, 07:30:03 PM
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Pictures please.
Anthony
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Call Seth Raynor and have him built you some template holes. Frankly, I think flat land is ideal for the use of templates. But I'd love to hear some real expert's thoughts on this.
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Anthony,
Do you know how many threads there are on courses on flat(ish) property?
A lot...
Try these on for size:
www.mnuzzo.com/wpc
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Anthony,
Do you know how many threads there are on courses on flat(ish) property?
A lot...
Try these on for size:
www.mnuzzo.com/wpc
Thanks for the pictures Mike.What are your thoughts on making flat land interesting?I'm waiting.
Anthony
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Wolf Point looks great Mike.
Anthony
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Call Seth Raynor and have him built you some template holes. Frankly, I think flat land is ideal for the use of templates. But I'd love to hear some real expert's thoughts on this.
Mac, there are several template holes that require elevation changes, and how much better it is if no earthworks are required.
I'm thinking of Valley, Sahara, Alps, Redan, Hogsback......
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isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat? You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son? That one and that course!
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Bill...I was thinking Yeamans Hall, specifically. That site had very little elevation change, except for pushed up greens. Even the redan seemed to just be a pushed up green with a weird angle.
Here is the Redan...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/YeamansHall6Redan.jpg)
And here is the Alps...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/YeamansHall5Alps.jpg)
And Ron...I think the course you are talking about is the Jubilee course. Duh!
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nope...that one is newer...YH must be a sublime blast to play. My only Raynor is Fox Chapel and it was a sublime blast to play...went by way too quickly. I wish I knew then what I know now about the (Knights) Template holes.
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I love the idea of templating some of my favorite holes for use on flat land. I just drew the plans for what could be a long par-4 this morning... I'm unable to post photos, the button isn't working for me, sadly.
Holes I think that I would template well for a flat site/landfill:
Friars Head- 5
Bethpage Black - 12
Winged Foot West - 10
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nope...that one is newer...YH must be a sublime blast to play. My only Raynor is Fox Chapel and it was a sublime blast to play...went by way too quickly. I wish I knew then what I know now about the (Knights) Template holes.
Ron...I think Yeamans is a special, special place. The course could be nit-picked and criticized for a variety of things, but the bottom line is that it is a great golf course/club. It would be an absolute honor to be a member there and have the ability to golf it at will.
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See C&C's Talking Stick North in Scottsdale:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/talkingstick
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I think the question should be how did two generations of architects fail to make interesting holes and courses on flat land. TOC was around as well as any number of Mac/Raynor courses.
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1. Move the soll to one side.
2. Insert bulldozer.
3. Put the soil back.
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Chechessee Creek is a great template for designing a tough, fun course on flat, flat land (makes Yeamans Hall look like there is a lot of undulation). The formula I observed at Chechessee is small, push up greens, with a good and bad side to be on (short and straight is excellent at Chechessee) if you miss. Holes that bend both ways. Light use of fairway bunkering to dictate tee balls as its more about the dog legs and tree lines. Lots of variation in length within the 3, 4, and 5. Most of this is good desgin regardless of land movement but I think the small, thoughtfully protected greens and use of doglegs and treelines make Chechessee really well done for such flat land. Lots of restraint there but a super fun place to play. Really tough too.
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isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat? You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son? That one and that course!
....er, no its not. Very little elevational changes granted but flat ? No !
Niall
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Create a pseudo-road-hole or a bottle hole.
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I love the idea of templating some of my favorite holes for use on flat land. I just drew the plans for what could be a long par-4 this morning... I'm unable to post photos, the button isn't working for me, sadly.
Holes I think that I would template well for a flat site/landfill:
Friars Head- 5
Bethpage Black - 12
Winged Foot West - 10
Jaeger-Any template for WFW 10 will require the home behind it with the bedroom window in the perfect spot. On a more serious note that would be a great template hole.
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I love the idea of templating some of my favorite holes for use on flat land. I just drew the plans for what could be a long par-4 this morning... I'm unable to post photos, the button isn't working for me, sadly.
Holes I think that I would template well for a flat site/landfill:
Friars Head- 5
Bethpage Black - 12
Winged Foot West - 10 ? ? ? You need elevation at the tee and green[/b]
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You elevate the green.[/b]
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1. Dig a lake along the length of the left side of the hole
2. Use material to build a hig mound between fairway and green
3. Open hole
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angles and small humps.
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Actually Anthony its my favorite kind of dirt....just a pure palette of unrestricted routing combined with strategic design and features...at least conceptually. Its never really that way though...unfortunately.
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I thought Patrick might suggest elevating the greens. His Pine Tree GC is an outstanding course on perhaps the most level site in the US. Most greens are elevated (by Dick Wilson) and most are fronted by bunkers. You will almost certainly have a level lie in the fairway, but you are then faced with the need for a lofted second shot with excellent distance control. Add the wind and you have a very challenging course. If the fairways were not level, it would be too tough for most of us.
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isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat? You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son? That one and that course!
TOC taught me that flat (no macro contour) is fine if there is firm turf, strategic bunkering (in the fairways) and lots of contour in AND AROUND the greens (and if at all possible, lost of wind).
Examples - 2, 12, 13, 14, 17
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I thought Patrick might suggest elevating the greens. His Pine Tree GC is an outstanding course on perhaps the most level site in the US. Most greens are elevated (by Dick Wilson) and most are fronted by bunkers. You will almost certainly have a level lie in the fairway, but you are then faced with the need for a lofted second shot with excellent distance control. Add the wind and you have a very challenging course. If the fairways were not level, it would be too tough for most of us.
Jim, what Wilson did on an incredibly flat site is amazing.
Pine Tree is a very interesting and fun course to play despite the monotony of the land.
The challenge presented, especially with the wind, is fabulous.
From very short holes, to medium and very long holes, he crafted a gem on what most would consider very boring land.
I think he's one of the most underrated architects of the 20th century
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When faced with flat ground, I also use the gentle fw shaping that Adrian mentions. Sometimes, the trick is tying back in the edges, but for the most part, 2-5% slopes are quite pleasing without looking too artificial.
I am not quite sure that either template holes or raising greens is enough to make flat land interesting.....
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Leave it alone or better yet, disturb it.
I really like the small yet bold shaping around the greens at TPC - Sawgrass. If I recall correctly, in response to my question as to whether shaping is often random, Tom Doak has shared that Pete Dye told his shapers to :f@#k it up a little over there" when building that course.
Anthony, for an example closer to home study the fairway bunkering at Holston Hills' 5th hole next time you're there.
Mike
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Mike,
I have always thought of random as more of the angles of the splines and valleys. One problem of working in plan first is the tendency to relate green side contours to the green itself. One thing I learned from Prairie Dunes is that Maxwell related his green side shaping to the angles and slopes of the surrounding grounds, not the green, which looks much more natural. Fazio does this in a lot of his shaping.
The problem with the "shape a bit over there" mode is that once you start shaping, finding a place to stop becomes problematic on flat ground. It seems you need to shape the entire hole, or accept the elevated greens and tees, and built bunkers as looking built, which is not all bad either.
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Some I like:
Woodlands #4 – 251 Meters (from website)
(http://woodlandsgolf.com.au/upload/wysiwyg/holes/hole4.jpg)
TPC Sawgrass 11 – 535 yards (from a Links Magazine ad):
(http://www.linksmagazine.com/special_sections/asset_upload_file809_5393.jpg)
Woking 4 – 350 yards (from Ran’s Profile):
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Woking4t.jpg)
Riviera’s 10th (from Scott Warren)
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1980/pa240505.jpg)
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Jeff, I'm intrigued by your opinion that it's rough to find a place to stopwhen shaping. I don't universally believe that features have to be blended into the landscape and in fact like features that battle the land or otherwise abruptly pierce the landscape. Examples just up the road -the fairway mounding at Holston Hills' 15th and the large pimple at the back right of the 17th green there.
I also like the peek-a-boo or eye-brow bunkering on flat ground or a very low, but abrupt fairway berm.
My favorite, however is Charles Bank's use of what I can only describe as mole tracks on several of the greens I saw at Knoll West and Forsate last fall. I believe his drawings refer to them as deflection plates.
Some (very) random thoughts.
Mike
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Jason,
The last two photos show one of the problems of using bunkers to make flat ground interesting.
At Woking, you notice the bunkers are not stacked one behind each other, but carefully angled in. At Riv, you show a hole with an elevated tee which makes all flat land bunkers visible. The guy in the cart in front of the tee would only see the first bunkers, and not any behind them, reducing the visual impact of the hole.
And the Pete Dye style works on flat ground because those long bunkers are so easy to see. I happen to think his style also works there because of the steep banks. If it is not possible to really elevate something, then steepening its surrounding banks makes it much more of a focal point. Contrast this with Dick Wilson or RTJ who used longer slopes to make it look more natural and Petes greens seem elevated much higher.
Mike,
I agree and some have commented on my designs that its actually just "more sincere" to accept the fact that a built bunker is a built bunker, blend it in as best you can at the toes of slopes, and forget the oft difficult mantra of "natural" since in reality, golf courses are built and not natural, at least to one degree or another.
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12th at the Old Course
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Jason,
The last two photos show one of the problems of using bunkers to make flat ground interesting.
At Woking, you notice the bunkers are not stacked one behind each other, but carefully angled in. At Riv, you show a hole with an elevated tee which makes all flat land bunkers visible. The guy in the cart in front of the tee would only see the first bunkers, and not any behind them, reducing the visual impact of the hole.
And the Pete Dye style works on flat ground because those long bunkers are so easy to see. I happen to think his style also works there because of the steep banks. If it is not possible to really elevate something, then steepening its surrounding banks makes it much more of a focal point. Contrast this with Dick Wilson or RTJ who used longer slopes to make it look more natural and Petes greens seem elevated much higher.
Thanks for the analysis Jeff
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isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat? You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son? That one and that course!
TOC taught me that flat (no macro contour) is fine if there is firm turf, strategic bunkering (in the fairways) and lots of contour in AND AROUND the greens (and if at all possible, lost of wind).
Examples - 2, 12, 13, 14, 17
Wade, I have never really thought of the Old Course as "flat.". Think of the valley below #5, the mounds in the 7th fairway, the slope behind 7/11, the ridge and broken ground in front of #13, the mounds in #15 fairway, the "Valley of Sin"..........
I love the undulations, bumps, swales....
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isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat? You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son? That one and that course!
TOC taught me that flat (no macro contour) is fine if there is firm turf, strategic bunkering (in the fairways) and lots of contour in AND AROUND the greens (and if at all possible, lost of wind).
Examples - 2, 12, 13, 14, 17
Wade, I have never really thought of the Old Course as "flat.". Think of the valley below #5, the mounds in the 7th fairway, the slope behind 7/11, the ridge and broken ground in front of #13, the mounds in #15 fairway, the "Valley of Sin"..........
I love the undulations, bumps, swales....
Bill,
I agree, TOC certainly has some great microtopography. What I am trying to point out is that a hole can be mostly flat and still be great. For example, #2 is very flat up until about 50 yards from the green and then it is wild (and I love that hole). What this suggests to me is that an architect might be able to take a flat piece of land and build great holes by focusing efforts of creating great contours around the greens.
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I love the idea of templating some of my favorite holes for use on flat land. I just drew the plans for what could be a long par-4 this morning... I'm unable to post photos, the button isn't working for me, sadly.
Holes I think that I would template well for a flat site/landfill:
Friars Head- 5
Bethpage Black - 12
Winged Foot West - 10 ? ? ? You need elevation at the tee and green[/b]
The house is irrelevant! The rest is pretty simply really, there is a big cut running all the way up the right side and behind the green remember. Nobody said you couldn't add fill from somewhere else on the property either.
Not that it matters really, but I hadn't really considered this hole either until someone from C&C pointed it out to me while standing on #11 tee looking back. Winged Foot is a great place to steal ideas for what can be done to make flat land interesting... and difficult!
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Rustic Canyon's 13th is actually uphill, but it seems pretty flat.
Geoff Shackelford has a nice step by step photo overview of how the hole was created at http://www.geoffshackelford.com/rustic-canyon-photos/13th-hole-sequence/
A quick before and after from that series:
(http://www.geoffshackelford.com/picture/1_13beforelowpix.jpg?pictureId=310587)
(http://www.geoffshackelford.com/picture/9_4_nov18.jpg?pictureId=310662)
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David, thank you for posting that photograph of the 13th at Rustic Canyon. It's a fantastic example. The centerline bunker reachable off the tee nicely refutes my theory that abrupt features are the way to go. Hanse did a nice job of extending the back side of the bunker through an uneven shoulder that gradually wanders and disipates to the right.
It's a stellar hole with top notch bunker placement throughout.
Mike
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Go play New Zealand and Huntercombe. Usually, archies slap bunkers all over the place on flat holes when I think hazard/hump/hollow placement is a its highest premium in flat areas. It is even more important to be judicious and utilize/accentuate any feature possible. For geeens, Huntercombe is also a good model. I would think the Raynor style minus much of the sand would also be an excellent model.
Ciao
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Really depends upon ones definition of FLAT. 1st off, anything less than 2% won't drain. Jeff likes 2-5% but at 5%, that's 5' verticle in 100' or 15' in 100 yds. Not very flat in my book. I would offer that Flat is <2%. Flat is when you don't see anything dug below the groundline and anything above it blocks the view of the ground behind.
Drainage become paramont in flat land design. The soil type is also a big determinant as to how you plan your concepts. If you have a sandy soil or are blessed with deep topsoil, you can create a lot of rolls and valley swales to move water without having to strip the entire area (but drainage inlets will be needed to pick up that water).
If the topsoil is thin and must be salvaged for any grading, there are several options.
1) cut a swale down the inside of the hole and use the cut dirt to raise the outside of the hole. slice several swales across the fairway and use that dirt to elevate the areas in between.
2) keep green "at grade" knowing that greensmix and gravel will raise it 1' and cut out around the green, pushing that soil away from the green. Also depress the approach to a swale about 30 yards from the green. Push this material back into the fairway to create enough movement for drainage/interest. For Bunkers, these are really tricky. The best way is to start cutting about 100' back along the line of site. Push this cut material to the beyond the rear of the bunker to raise the backing several feet. The end result will be a bunker 2' deep bunker that a) you can see and b) appears to be 3-4' deep. A low basin in fornt of the bunker will pick up water before it reaches the bunker and allow more vison. The leading sand edge is only 6-8" deep. These work especially good at being gathering bunkers while providing a kick-slope if one carries it so having them more internal to the fairway rather than along the sides works to add strategy. Having them cut into the ground without shape backing mounding makes them appear more natural.
Cut the area between the tees and fairway to generate material to elveate the tees a bit. You can also swale the non-access site to make the tees appear more elevated.
Like Jeff allluded to, all this has to be tied back into an existing grade at some point so the gentler and broader you can be with your slopes, the more natural it will appear. However, you may wish to do some "out-in-rough" grading along the same line to make it looks more cohesive. One problem I see is when archies only grade the play areas and the terrain becomes disjointed or when greens, tees, bunkers and mounds are all built above the grade while everything else is pancake flat. I call this the 'ice cream scooper' look.
BTW, I did template #10 WFW, great hole. And Pat Mucci, you and my father think alike when it comes to Dick Wilson.
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Anthony, check the European Tour coverage of the Volvo from Bahrain. That is a good looking example of a modern course on flat land - not sure who designed it but Monty is claiming it. Looks like an improved Castle design.
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In addition to a number of the good suggestions above, some of the flatter courses I enjoy in Houston take advantage of the plant life. In semi-native areas, as opposed to bare land being reclaimed, I think designers/architects have good opportunities to "frame" the course and dictate its playability through the use of vegetation. You can provide more than just aesthetics by routing around more of the motre interesting native areas an area has to offer.
MP
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In addition to a number of the good suggestions above, some of the flatter courses I enjoy in Houston take advantage of the plant life. In semi-native areas, as opposed to bare land being reclaimed, I think designers/architects have good opportunities to "frame" the course and dictate its playability through the use of vegetation. You can provide more than just aesthetics by routing around more of the motre interesting native areas an area has to offer.
MP
Now, could we start working on eliminating the mud puddles in front of every push up green in Southeast Texas? Thanks. ;-)
Come on, Matt. We all know that most Houston golfers think native ain't pretty. It's gotta be greeeeeen and lush -- fountains are good too.
Yes, there are some courses here that use native lands effectively but I'm afraid that the Tropical Storm Allison Recovery Project will forever alter how courses will be built or renovated here. We need retention volume to hold all the water runoff that is being displaced by our out of control suburban sprawl.
Drew
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In addition to a number of the good suggestions above, some of the flatter courses I enjoy in Houston take advantage of the plant life. In semi-native areas, as opposed to bare land being reclaimed, I think designers/architects have good opportunities to "frame" the course and dictate its playability through the use of vegetation. You can provide more than just aesthetics by routing around more of the motre interesting native areas an area has to offer.
MP
Now, could we start working on eliminating the mud puddles in front of every push up green in Southeast Texas? Thanks. ;-)
Come on, Matt. We all know that most Houston golfers think native ain't pretty. It's gotta be greeeeeen and lush -- fountains are good too.
Yes, there are some courses here that use native lands effectively but I'm afraid that the Tropical Storm Allison Recovery Project will forever alter how courses will be built or renovated here. We need retention volume to hold all the water runoff that is being displaced by our out of control suburban sprawl.
Drew
A couple of things there. To my point, while I do not like the course that much overall, there are some holes on the Redstone Tournament course that I think do a really neat job of utilizing the native vegetation and utilizing it to influence shot values. Specifically, numbers #2, #5, #10, and #13-#15. Not necessarily great holes, but they make good use of the trees and native areas.
But you also just reminded me of my favorite hidden obstacle for flat courses, especially in areas of the South with push-up greens. It is the mud puddles you mentioned, the saturation of the turf in the 10-15 yards of turf leading up to the green, especially those open fronts. God forbid we would want to allow someone to play a rolling approach or recovery shot short of the greeen.
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I have always thought that the best use of a flat land base was at the Empire Lakes golf course near Ontario, Ca. It is a Palmer design and you drive through a business park to get to it on some of the flatest land I have seen in SoCal. But, as I played the course I never got the feeling of playing a flat course that was virtually treeless. Maybe somebody can provide more design info on it and some more pictures. They had to move a lot of dirt I am sure.
http://www.golfcalifornia.com/deegan7.htm
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Some I like:
Woodlands #4 – 251 Meters (from website)
(http://woodlandsgolf.com.au/upload/wysiwyg/holes/hole4.jpg)
TPC Sawgrass 11 – 535 yards (from a Links Magazine ad):
(http://www.linksmagazine.com/special_sections/asset_upload_file809_5393.jpg)
Woking 4 – 350 yards (from Ran’s Profile):
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Woking4t.jpg)
Riviera’s 10th (from Scott Warren)
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1980/pa240505.jpg)
I love golf!
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Jockey Club -- http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42257.0.html
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Jeff Brauer:
At Riv, you show a hole with an elevated tee which makes all flat land bunkers visible. The guy in the cart in front of the tee would only see the first bunkers, and not any behind them, reducing the visual impact of the hole.
The tee you see in the foreground of the pic is the back tee of the hole. A lot of pics of the hole are taken from up on the hill because it photographs better from there, but the tee is at the same level as the fairway and green.
And as you say, that makes the visibility of how much room you have between the bunkers much less than from an elevated vantage point.
You can see the far bunkers from the tee, but the expanse of land between them is hidden somewhat.
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Yeamans Hall has little elevation change, but it is not flat. #11 is a prime example - you don't create visibility risk/reward approach shots like Raynor did at Yeamans without non-flatness (better word?)
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Scott,
I always thought that the hiding of the room between the far left bunkers was one of the strengths of the hole, making you play even further left than you need to, and resulting in a longer approach with a delicate shot.