Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Will E on September 22, 2010, 08:46:45 PM
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so that I can explain it to a friend of mine that is a wicked good architect
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No, but that won't stop them from trying. ;D
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,20633.0/
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Shot values are whatever you want them to be. I usually count one for each one of mine. :)
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Shooter,
If your head has stopped spinning here's a few more threads on the subject:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4329.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7190.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14654.0/
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so that I can explain it to a friend of mine that is a wicked good architect
I thought you explained to me a couple of years ago that they didn't matter as long as the rough was fescue not bluegrass ;)
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Are they like pornography? I'll know it when I see it?
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Well I know this. When chipping, wedges and bunker shots it ain't a good shot until you make the putt?
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The premium placed on trajection, distance and accuracy?
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Being called upon to hit the fullest range of shots -- beyond what Mike H mentioned -- also calls upon shot shaping as needed.
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Shot value relates to the degree of difficulty a course presents. A 180-yard shot to a flat green with no bunkers has little shot value, because a poor shot will be barely worse than a good shot. A shot of the same distance to an undulating green with bunkers, and perhaps a stream running alongside, has much more shot value, because it requires more precision, and precision requires skill.
Perhaps it should be called skill value.
Other people may have different definitions, but that's mine.
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Nice post, Tim, that's probably one of the clearest and most concise explanations I've read.
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I don't know if I can be clearer, but I can be more concise: shot values measure the variety of shots played during a round of golf.
A course has good shot values if it makes you play all kinds of shots using every club in your bag. So in my mind it doesn't pertain directly to the degree of difficulty or skill required.
Also, if at one point you are forced to hit a draw or fail utterly, then that is not a sign of good shot values. If the draw will give you an advantage, but the fade will also get you there, then you have two options instead of one - albeit with a different risk/reward profile, but two options nonetheless. That is more variety and thus higher shot values.
Ulrich
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A course has good shot values if it makes you play all kinds of shots using every club in your bag. So in my mind it doesn't pertain directly to the degree of difficulty or skill required.
Ulrich
Love the way you put this. I've said before, I don't care if I hit 3 7 irons in a row, if they differ in shape/trajectory/etc. In fact, I'd rather hit a 7 iron for every shot - provided they are different and unique shots - than the vaunted "every club in the bag" if every club is a stock shot (ie. normal swing, drop and stop type shot).
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I am not sure what shot values are, but I can say shot values have nothing to do with using "all the clubs in the bag". What if one guy uses 6 clubs and another 14? Does this somehow mean the 14 club guy is tested more in the shot value department? Honestly, its a poor descriptor to use for an indication of a the quality of a design. Why not just describe how the, terrain, elements and architecture worked together over a few of the shots, holes or sequence of holes to get the variety message across?
Ciao
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From Golf Digest's methodology:
1. SHOT VALUES
How well does the course pose risks and rewards and equally test length, accuracy and finesse?
Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100greatestgolfcourses_methodology#ixzz10UuKSc1O
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Shot value is a term that you hear a lot but no one ever has explained what it means. So I'll try:
I think it refers to the quality of the spot on the golf course you are hitting from, through the green. When you stand over the ball and consider all your options to the hole, you have at least one challenging and interesting shot to consider, and possibly more, with each stroke. And the more challenging and interesting the shots are, the higher the shot value.
A high shot value spot of the golf course would be one that requires some thought, before hitting, in addition to skill. Usually when I look back at a round of golf I can pick out as many shots where I made a bad decision as those where I made a bad shot. So those where spots on the golf course that had a high shot value because the right shot wasn't obvious at first glance.
When we talk about a golf hole having a high shot value, I think we are saying that every spot on the hole has interesting and challenging options through the green.
That's my take on the term shot value.
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IMHO shot value is determined from the green back....the difficulty of placing the golf ball in a particular location on the green from a particular location on the golf course is the value of that shot...various locations into the green from the fairway or rough create the value of the tee shot....and the combination of shot values determine the strategy.....uhhhh.... ;)
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Here's the best explanation I've ever seen:
http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci-0710-shot-values-jeffrey-brauer.aspx
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What if one guy uses 6 clubs and another 14?
I am assuming no one is carrying clubs that he can't or won't hit. One guy is comfortable with 6 clubs, but can hit different shots with them. Another guy needs all 14, because he likes to make the same swing every time. A course with good shot values will cater to both. They will both use all the clubs in their bag and hit all the shots they can possibly hit with those clubs.
An extremely limited player may not hit as many different shots as a more versatile one, but he will hit more different shots on a course with good shot values than on one with bad shot values.
Urlich
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True shot value is the fully allocated cost of your round divided by the total number of strokes. The higher the score the better the deal
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I don't know why I am entering this fray, since it's obvious from the answers above that the term is used so many ways by different people that it's essentially meaningless.
The GOLF DIGEST definition is about the course as a whole and how it tests one's game. Some people think this implies that every hole and every shot should test length, accuracy and finesse, but I believe it's enough for each of them to be tested over the 18 holes.
Others apply Mike's first definition, that every shot should matter, but the degree to which they should ideally matter is subjective. By Tim's definition, the harder the individual shots, the better the shot value, and I don't think that is correct -- even though many GOLF DIGEST panelists do it that way, which is why hard courses are overrated in their poll.
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By Tim's definition, the harder the individual shots, the better the shot value, and I don't think that is correct -- even though many GOLF DIGEST panelists do it that way, which is why hard courses are overrated in their poll.
Good point Tom...
Rich Harvest Links 78.5/153………46th Golf Digest., not rated by Golf Mag.
Butler National GC 78.1/152………93rd Golf Mag., 37 Golf Digest
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I always associate a shots value with the potential for reward or punishment that it presents (unless the hole doles out those results somewhat arbitrarily). In my mind it means that there is a marked strategic advantage gained by the player that can tailor and execute certain types of shots. The soft flat green with a center hole location and empty surrounds offer little advantage to a player who can shape shots, control spin, control trajectory, etc. The hole is just as easily accessed with any of those shots, and the player need not fret to much about which shot he choses or how well he is able to execute that particular shot, because missing that shot still leads to an easy pitch and putt or easy 2 putt for par. I think we call it shot value, because depending on which shot is selected and how well it is performed, a player can quickly move from a birdie try to a double bogey. That is what makes the shot important or valuable and thus demands our full attention. So I guess in a sense, it is a volatility factor (although one that measure just volatility).
However, when we rate a course for shot values I know I kind of combine this with an assessment of variety. It is possible to build a course with very high shot values where a high, spinning fade yields the greatest probability of success on every shot. However, I normally say that a course has high shot values only if over an entire round, a that course demands that (in order to score well) you carefully and skillfully plan and execute all of the proverbial shots in the bag (shots with different shapes, trajectory, spin, etc.) with all of the clubs in the bag.
It seems to me that one needs to play a course many times to get a sense of aggregate shot values since 1) hole locations are probably the biggest factor and 2) wind and other conditions will have a huge effect on shot values.
Anyway, after all of this ranting I will try a short and sweet mathematical definition: A course presents shigh shot values if modest positive perturbations in the selection and execution of shots over an entire round generally results in a commensurate improvement in scoring.
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Shot Values
It’s another nail in the coffin on enjoying golf with a whole load of BS – it helps take your mind off the game and fills it with useless irrelevant information.
Just go and open your eyes and enjoy the course that awaits you, don’t kill the sense
Melvyn
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Shot Values
It’s another nail in the coffin on enjoying golf with a whole load of BS – it helps take your mind off the game and fills it with useless irrelevant information.
Just go and open your eyes and enjoy the course that awaits you, don’t kill the sense
Melvyn
I agree 100% here. I think the concept of "shot values" is garbage. It assumes that every player is hitting the same shots on every hole. It de-emphasizes subtlety and rewards flash and drama. I think "shot values" are worthless.
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Says the guy, whose favorite courses are North Berwick, Royal Dornoch, Prestwick, Merion, Deal ;-)
Ulrich
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I think Mr. Morrow makes a good point. While there may be a time and place for categorical analysis of golf courses (ex. rankings or tournament venue selection, attempting to understand and replicate great architecture), it is really hard to quanitfy the magic of a great golf course. While I will continue to assess shot values, perhaps in the end it is more of a smell test than anything else. Perhaps it is just a way of saying the course really grabbed my attention and I felt pleasantly challenged.
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Says the guy, whose favorite courses are North Berwick, Royal Dornoch, Prestwick, Merion, Deal ;-)
Ulrich
How is there a tension between my view on shot values and my favorite courses? I think Dornoch and Merion get ranked pretty highly (though Merion more for championship pedigree than design quality), but NB, Prestwick, and Deal are never highly valued by the rankings that value shot values so much.
My opinions on those golf courses have nothing to do with shot values. In fact, I would not even really now how to calculate a shot value as part of my evaluation of any golf course.
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in my opinion, shot values are how well rewarded a good shot is and how severely punished a bad shot is.
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Thomas
Meaning what exactly - its back up in the air as to how we define good bad, it’s just words that help complicate the game for - let’s be honest for no real constructive help. What’s good in your opinion may be bad in mine, or we could agree or not - it’s just complicated the issue when no complication is required.
Melvyn
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@JNC Lyon:
I just found it amusing that you think shot values over-emphasize flash and drama, while all your favorite courses are some of the most dramatic and exciting in the world. Well, I don't know Merion, it may be in the camp of subtlety.
Anyhow, I don't know what ranking according to shot values you speak of, but there have been many different definitions of the term in this thread alone, so I think it's a bit of a sweeping statement to say that the concept is garbage and useless. Some of the definitions brought forth may be, but I'd like to think that everyone has a personal use for his definition. In most cases I should think that the concept helps to form a clearer picture in one's mind about the relative merits of course A vs. course B.
I certainly agree with Melvyn that everyone has different standards and different opinions, but from that fact I would draw much different conclusions ;-)
Ulrich
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Shot values are the set of abilities and tools required by the golf course in order to manuever the golf ball from the tee to the hole using the most efficient series of strokes.
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Kyle
Love it but you made one spelling mistake - I think you meant "Shot values are the set of abilities and tools required by the golf course in order to MANURE the golf ball from the tee to the hole using the most efficient series of strokes".
Reads much better with that minor spelling correction ;) Anyway if many do not understand what it is how can it be defined as useful?
Melvyn