Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: TEPaul on July 26, 2010, 10:47:35 PM
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......what do you who have never done that before think or suspect you would learn about golf course architecture?
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I suspect that I would learn more than I can possibly suspect. ;D
I feel like there is so little that I know about actual course construction that I can't even begin to understand how much I would learn by walking a semi-blank site for a week.
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I am thinking you probably wouldn't learn much about punctuation and grammar, which apparently you need to do in order to form a coherent question.
In any event, I'd think I'd learn how someone route's a golf course and perhaps what it means to "not move any dirt" yet still "build a green."
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I am thinking you probably wouldn't learn much about punctuation and grammar, which apparently you need to do in order to form a coherent question.
In any event, I'd think I'd learn how someone route's a golf course and perhaps what it means to "not move any dirt" yet still "build a green."
Hilarious!!!!!!
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"In any event, I'd think I'd learn how someone route's a golf course and perhaps what it means to "not move any dirt" yet still "build a green."
I'm quite sure you would learn a whole helluva lot more than that JC, but at this point there is certainly no reason whatsoever why you would realize it. Why would you if you'd never done it before? Do you think you know what it's remotely like to drive a stock car at 210mph on a steep oval in traffic if you've never been to a race or talked at length to a really good driver about what it's like?
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I'm smart enough to know that I don't know. I just know that I would be underwhelmed by some stuff, and overwhelmed by other stuff. I would probably have a perpetual inquisitive tilt to my cranium, kind of like the RCA dog.
Either way Mr. Paul, your comments here and on the shaping thread lead me to this.
I have 30-something days of leave, youth, ambition, and some good boots. I'd love to hang out on a site for a week if any of our resident architects and shapers will have me.
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"I have 30-something days of leave, youth, ambition, and some good boots. I'd love to hang out on a site for a week if any of our resident architects and shapers will have me."
Well, Ben, why don't you just ask them? There may be a good half dozen of them on this website. Some of the ones I went on site with asked me for various reasons so if they were willing to do that I sure doubt they would turn you down if you asked them.
Is there any chance you could prevail upon both MacWood and/or Moriarty to join you? If you could I believe you would be doing an incredible service for this website and DG.
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I've done construction for 4 different projects now. One of which 4 courses were being built simultaneously right beside each other on a huge site. My two cents would be that with the golf architecture knowledge all you guys already have on here most would be underwhelmed just hanging around discussing the architecture.
I think what would blow you away would be hanging around the project manager, project superintendent, design associate...all of the guys that are leading the charge besides the architect that may or may not be there everyday. You will see how much engineering goes on in the actual "construction" and all of the coordinating it takes between management and all the contractors/subcontractors. It's all a complex yet well orchestrated chaos from my experience. And its soo much fun.
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Never having heaved a pick-axe or shovelled dirt for a living I think I would learn just where a lot of my muscles actually were! In all honesty I think that the eye-opener for me would be just what a synchronised dance it must be; creating well-thought out structures and formations in amongst the chaos which surely is a hallmark of a busy site whilst allowing for a bit of "instant" creativity on the micr-level. I also think that a major realisation would be just how important the role of trusted, involved shapers is. This thread (and the others e.g. the Goalby interview) commenting on construction and shaping etc. have been a revelation to me.
Such is my fascination that I have been printing out the threads over the last 24 hours to try and get an overview of the ideas flying around. More info just keeps coming on stream. Really interesting stuff.
Thanks,
Colin
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Didn't spend a week with the Renaissance Group at Pacific Dunes but in the short times I were there I watched Tom and Jim grade and regrade the fifth green a number of times to get what they thought were the right slopes and tie sections of the green together. Also watched as the bunkers below the greens were placed and shaped.
In construction of holes look at the golf course as a giant tree with the base of the trunk being the entrance/exit of construction equipment and crew. Construction begins at the furthest leaves and sequences back through twigs, branches and limbs to minimize compaction of soil, thus helping retain natural drainablility. How to construct drainage sumps to avoid placing unsightly drains. You don't have to hide cart paths if they aren't there.
The importance of the end of the day rituals. Delegation of authority and ownership of the work. Tweaking (not what it normally means on the south coast). If you can hang out and have the main people spend a lot of time with you, then you know they have confidence in their crew and their workmanship.
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Well, Ben, why don't you just ask them? . . .
Is there any chance you could prevail upon both MacWood and/or Moriarty to join you? If you could I believe you would be doing an incredible service for this website and DG.
TEPaul, What makes you think you know whether I have ever spent time onsite at a golf course project? Are you keeping tabs on me by staring at the dregs left in each emptied wine glass as if reading tea leaves? Given the incoherence of your posts perhaps you've been reading a bit much lately.
Seriously, how would you know whether I've spent time on site at such projects or not? If I had, it is not as if I'd feel the need to constantly remind everyone that some designer or another nodded politely while I droned on self-importantly and kept them from doing their job.
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For me it would be a chance to learn the under-structure of a course as it is being built. The nuts and bolts that without which the top simply wouldn't work.
In other words, the why's and how's of drainage. The types of materials that go underneath to promote healthy turf. An understanding of why an undulation is simply that while many other times it is a necessity that allows the overall drainage to work.
How routing a course also involves the intertwining, not only of what is seen but what is not; those same underpinnings that allow for an entire area, not just a green site for example, but say several holes, fairways and all, to drain water in ways that will not unexpectedly prevent water from draining elsewhere.
Water is both life and death to a golf course and in ways that few of us, including myself, simply don't understand.
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I spent 3 days at the Bay of Dreams, after initial clearing as it was beginning to be shaped, the last week of January 2006 with TD & Team as the result of winning Golf Magazine's Armchair Architect Contest in the fall of 2005. The easiest comparison to make was in relation to my own field, Architect of Buildings. However, that is a very limited comparison as the "design" element of golf has inherently a lot more fuzzy edges to it while the general "program" element of golf has an ultimate clarity. There are fewer elements to design with but a greater range of design options.
I came to that conclusion because of the inherent margin of error in a topographic survey. If you think that 2 foot intervals is giving you all the information you need about a site, then you miss a lot of detail and a lot of design possibililites. The need to have the qualitative experience or the progression of walking the site can not be minimized. At the Bay of Dreams, that problem was magnified because the topo was in meters.
I came away with an appreciation of the difficulty of the shaping task. People like Brian Schneider and Brian Slawnik have very demanding jobs at a number of different levels.
Tom occasionally updated updated me on the progress of the project. Much of what I saw on the "original" front nine at the Bay of Dreams was completely re-routed and re-worked later.
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I spent a short time during a college internship on a project site, but it was merely a irrigation system replacement, so I think I still qualify for this thread :)
Beyond things I cannot even think of now, from a construction standpoint I think I would be most surprised to see the number of operations that must be completed simultaneously. From an architecture standpoint, I think I would be surprised to see how the land looks before clearing and/or shaping and would probably have lots of questions about how a specific routing was chosen.
Ben
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Wouldn't it depend on what project and who was in charge? Learning the nuts and bolts of how to run equiptment and then how that tool can be used to create the fields and features while considering drainage, play abilities and sustainabilty would likely be only learned from a cooperative teacher.
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Those are some interesting and diverse thoughts and posts, guys; thanks----with the exception of David Moriarty's of course, which is the same old insulting tone that seems to be part and parcel of all his posts on this website. Ben Sims, please belay my suggestion to you to ask him if he would like to join you on a project site. Apparently just the idea that someone might think he had never been on one incites him to spew defensive insults about the tea leaf effect of the dregs of wine in the bottom of a glass or whatever. ;)
I hadn't really thought much of it before but even though it's an education being out there watching the construction of a course in action to me the best education is being out there with the architect before anything was done-----when he was trying to figure out what to do on a raw site.
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......what do you who have never done that before think or suspect you would learn about golf course architecture?
I spent an hour with Jim Wagner and Rodney way back when at French Creek when they were building the course. It was something like 93 degrees and 80% humidity. It was a dry summer so the dust caked on my body and I was there for a brief time.
I learned that golf course architecture is a really hard job and I had no regrets about being a desk jockey posting my "wisdom" in an air conditioned office.
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Mike,
After spending 20+ years in the construction business I came to a similar conclusion, it's much better to be the guy with the plans in your hand than the guy pinning sod to a steep bunker face in 90 degree heat.
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It's like most things that you think about from afar and then would get to experience up close and personal......some notions would be dashed and some new ones would be learned. I liked what Ian Larson and Colin MacQueen said - it would be most interesting to learn about the collaboration required, and the nuts and bolts operations that are necessary for all the things I tend to discuss (macro stuff) to even exist at all.
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Someone should delete this thread.
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I wonder if we could get a new course project to agree to put up maybe 6 or so live web cams. That could be pretty neat! ;D
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Mike Sweeney:
I'm glad you mentioned Rodney Hines and Jim Wagner and French Creek. I really miss seeing Rodney and talking to him about architecture. He was on site all the time at our restoration at Gulph Mills. Next time I get to Boston I'm going to look him up.
One day I was at French Creek with Rodney around the 16th green and Rodney said to the half dozen or so Spanish speaking laborers out there as they were attempting to float the 16th green: "Do you guys want to listen to me this time or would you prefer to just do this about ten more times?" I think I fell over laughing at that one.
And then I turned around and looked at the 17th hole from the tee that was set at about a 45 degree angle to the line of play and I asked Rodney what in the world was going on with this hole to which Rodney said: "Oh that's Bill Kittleman's hole. There seems to be more stuff going on with that one but of course none of us have any idea what any of it means."
And then he showed me Bill Kittleman's so-called "garage" which is built in to the side of that long-running bank along the right side of that hole.
As I walked back to my car down what is now #18 I could see Jim Wagner who was over on the middle of #16 trying to wrestle an enormous "chunk" of sod off a bucket and up into the side of that big bunker (they were using the "chunking" method of bunker sodding). The thing came loose and pushed him backward and over into the bunker at which point he got up and started screaming at the large piece of sod and slugged and kicked it into some kind of submission.
You guys have got to make the effort to get out on some of these projects if they are somewhere around you. You can't believe what you learn, and there is always some memorable and incredibily funny stuff too, like the foregoing.
As for Moriarty, I have no idea if you've ever been out on a golf architecture project when it is being conceived and created but I highly recommend it if you haven't been----which frankly I couldn't care less if you have or haven't, and I apologize if you thought I was implying you never had been. And yes, one time on a project down around Delaware and Maryland, the inimitable Paul Cowley and I actually did discover an amazingly novel architectural/strategic concept in the "tea leaf" effect in the dregs of wine in the bottom of a wine glass. I think that was just before Paul arrived at his inspiration for "Mars Debris" architectural mounding.
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"I wonder if we could get a new course project to agree to put up maybe 6 or so live web cams. That could be pretty neat! ;D"
That would be pretty neat, Joe, and certainly edifying for us all on here----that is providing you don't put the web-cams in the back of your car and forget about them and ruin them as you did the video of the last architectural meeting here at the barn office! ;)
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If I spent a week on site with Jack N. I'd probably see about 3/4 of the earth and 17 different golf courses. THAT would certainly be a learning experience!
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Even though I sure to do believe it is such an interesting (and unexpectedly interesting) education to be out there on various sites with these architects, particularly in the "designing up" phase there is one particular aspect that I have to admit was pretty disappointing and disallusioning to me and particularly on the sites that seemed to offer a number of really interesting landform opportunities for golf.
And what I am about to say is true of all the architects I've been out on sites with which includes all my favorite architects. It seems to me when they all run into some problem or obstacle with a landform----problems with perhaps drainage patterns or percieved problems with playability issues their first inclination seems to be to just throw a bunker at it.
I have nothing per se against sand bunkers but I feel of all the architects I've known there is an inclination to use too much sand bunkering. I think some of them feel it's an opportunity to make some artisitc statement of their own or perhaps even that if there are not a certain number of sand bunkers on any golf course they will be perceived as not really doing their job.
Again, I have nothing against sand bunkers in most cases but I would personally use far less of them on sites that have good natural topographical opportunities for golf and particularly on sites where there is no natural sand for perhaps hundreds of miles around.
As Max Behr said, sand bunkers seem to be that odd vestige of the original linksland that completely held on to golf and golf architecture all over the world and oddly on so many sites that have no natural sand as the linksland did.
The fact is sand bunkers are not inexpensive to make and they surely are not cheap to maintain!
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......what do you who have never done that before think or suspect you would learn about golf course architecture?
Mostly I think I'd learn how little I know, especially about construction.
Ben Sims, I'd be surprised if almost all of the architects on board wouldn't appreciate some volunteer work... :) I once suggested GCA Fantasy Camp, where you'd go spend a week or month with some architect building a course, so I suppose if you do it, you should send me some sort of royalty!
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I'd probably learn just how important the boring, mundane things really are to a course. Things like drainage, irrigation, and the effect on certain species of trees on turfgrass.
Tom - you mention Kittleman's #17 at French Creek. There's so much going on that hole that it actually plays with your mind. It could have been a cookie-cutter 200 yard par 3, but what fun would that have been. Where else do you see no greenside bunkers, but a "garage" of bunkers on the right side of the fairway? Where else do you see a wave bunker that obscures the land between it and the green? And where else do you see a tee canted 45% off axis?
The design of just that hole would have been amazing to see in person, and would have been very educational.
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Dan:
That's true. Have you ever actually tried to get Bill Kittleman to describe in detail why it is the way it is? ;)
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Tom,
No, not Mr. Kittleman, but I do have Gil on video explaining the cross bunker. It's an amazing story - he was trying to build a bunker that had the visual properties of a wave crashing on the beach. He also put the higher part of the wave to the left (the safer side) which actually encourages shots to be played to the right and find the garage.
They succeeded.
This isn't the best angle to see the wave effect, but it does show the bunker well:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/FrenchCreek4GCA/17a.jpg)
Photo courtesy of Joe Bausch
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Dan:
Do you realize that the delightful Kate Kittleman (Bill's wife) once said she lost her favorite set of sterling silver tea spoons and she suspected Bill copped them from her to do some of the final finish detail work on bunker surrounds? What does that say about this mad genius? ;)
If you ever have tea at the Kittlemans you can know that the sterling silver tea spoon you are stirring your tea with once helped make a really cool bunker. How often can one say THAT?
To me it is vaguely reminiscent of that wonderful line in the Rupert Brooks poem about WW1 and the Englishmen who died and were buried abroad-----"a little plot of ground in a foreign field that will forever be---ENGLAND."
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TEPaul,
If you want less push-back from me about your obvious alcohol problem, then you need to leave me out of your booze fueled rants and swipes. Better yet, try a different kind of 'on-site' visit, one that lasts 28 days or so. Now that "would be doing an incredible service for this website."
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TePaul,
According to legend, I haven't been on a site visit since I bought my CAD system......I am not sure what I would learn!
Seriously, when I have had newbs on site, I think the thing they learn is that the stuff we talk about here accounts for about 10% or less of what it takes to get a golf course built.
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TE - just to take this in a slightly different direction:
I imagine that what I'd learn/experience would have a lot to do with when/at what stage in the process I spent the week there. I did construction work as my summer job for many years. The initial stage (demolition) was always satisfying, and the end stage (the finishing work) was satisfying as welll; but that middle period, when the work site was a mess and I couldn't envision what the professionals-contractors were doing and in what order, and the whole project had yet to reach a tipping point and or to take shape, was a frustrating period.
I guess if I was hanging out with an architect at this stage, I'd mostly just marvel at how they could keep their eye on the prize, i.e. the finished golf course, in the midst of a complex orchestration of various tasks/duties and the turning of theoretical ideas into concrete reality.
Peter
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"Seriously, when I have had newbs on site, I think the thing they learn is that the stuff we talk about here accounts for about 10% or less of what it takes to get a golf course built."
Jeffrey:
I would hope they would learn that. That's one of the reasons I created this thread!
PeterP:
To me the most educational aspect of being on site is at the beginning on the raw site when the architect is just beginning to route and just beginning to visualize holes. I think the routing process is the most important thing for most on here to actually see done on the land. I also think it is by far the most important aspect for anyone to really begin to understand what golf course architecture is fundamentally all about. Construction itself is of course important and interesting to watch but for me nothing quite like what comes before it.
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I would suggest that before anyone goes on a construction site they spend at least six months doing day-to-day golf course maintenance as a prerequisite.
You can't do calculus until you've passed math.
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I think what Steve Okula just said is also fundamentally important and I would note that some of the best golf course architects were also former greenkeepers (superintendants) like William Flynn was. Bill Coore was too. Pete Dye even said he was.
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David Moriarty:
Your #30 is totally unnecessary and pretty much the last straw. If you want to say things like that to me or about me it would be far better for all to say them to me on an email or the IM so the rest of the people on this website don't have to see it and read it. All I said to you or about you on this thread is that Ben Sims should invite you to go out with him to visit a project site, and your responses were a couple of really obnoxious posts----eg #30 and #10. I suggest you do the right thing and delete them by the end of today or I have no compuction at all about sending them to Morrissett to get him to ask you to delete them or perhaps delete you as well. The ball is in your court----what are you going to do about it?
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This is hilarious. Tom starts a thread which he quickly turns into a continuation of his passive-aggressive campaign (assuming that was not in fact the impetus for the thread), calls out the usual suspects, then gets all offended when one of the targets returns fire.
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1. No matter what, water flows down hill, unless pumped.
2. Refer to #1.
3. Blowing up things in person is even better than talking about it....unbelieveable!
4. Construction crews start early, so you need to be on site early or they may have taken a shortcut to get something done before you arrived that won't work. Sometimes the shortcut is to get a task done, sometimes to save money, or both.
5. No matter how well you read plans and contour maps, seeing the roughly finished green or hole corridor gives a great sense of accomplishment. Seeing the finished product (with plating and grassing compete) even more so.
6. You can never install enough drainage in fairways...there are always puddles that need to be fixed (unless your site is 100% sand).
7. Even with EZ-Go's or other vehicles, you walk an awful lot. No real need to hit the gym.
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David Moriarty:
Your #30 is totally unnecessary and pretty much the last straw. If you want to say things like that to me or about me it would be far better for all to say them to me on an email or the IM so the rest of the people on this website don't have to see it and read it. All I said to you or about you on this thread is that Ben Sims should invite you to go out with him to visit a project site, and your responses were a couple of really obnoxious posts----eg #30 and #10. I suggest you do the right thing and delete them by the end of today or I have no compuction at all about sending them to Morrissett to get him to ask you to delete them or perhaps delete you as well. The ball is in your court----what are you going to do about it?
Do what you want. I am not deleting a thing. I didn't inject me into this thread, you did. With yet another unprovoked pot shot at me and Tom. You've done it over and over again, even when I haven't posted for months at a time.
So take it to Ran. I'm sure he is well aware of your inability to control yourself, especially when you drink. He can pretend he doesn't see the white elephant staggering around his discussion group, but I am through pretending.
If Ran wants me to silently put up with your endless crap, then I'd rather he throw me off.
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Just like numerous other threads on here, this one's really going to excell..OH BOY, I CAN'T WAIT. ::)
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This is the funniest stuff I've ever read on here!
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8).. I would pitch a tent and watch it morning noon and night..
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"Is there any chance you could prevail upon both MacWood and/or Moriarty to join you? If you could I believe you would be doing an incredible service for this website and DG."
David Moriarty:
Is that what you mean about me injecting you into this thread? Do you find something insulting about me suggesting that Ben Sims prevail upon you and MacWood to join him for a week or so on some architectural project site to learn what happens out there, and that that might be of service to this website? If so, why is that? I started this thread because I think it is a great learning experience for anyone really interested in golf architecture to do that, and do it as much as possible. I have and I just couldn't recommend it strongly enough to others interested in golf course architecture who may not have done it, including you and MacWood.
I have no idea if you've ever done it. If you have why don't you tell us about it and what you learned rather than saying what you did to me about wine or the dregs of wine or whatever? And if you haven't ever done it then why are you so insulted by the suggestion?
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I know this is probably stupid to do, as I might be stepping right into the middle of this crazy fighting stuff...but oh well, I may not be the brightest bulb in the shed. :)
But awhile ago, frankly I can't recall the exact thread or the exact time, David M. told me that it might be worth my while to visit a golf course in the middle of construction in order to further round out my education. I haven't made the time or the connections in order to accomplish that goal yet. I hope to, perhaps in a year or two I might be ready for that. I think I have a few more things to get caught up to speed on first...grasses for one.
Regardless, I don't know if David is like me and hasn't made the time to do this yet, but he certainly has thought of it. And for what it is worth, I think it would be amazingly educational.
EDIT...here is that thread from November of last year. Post 27. Great stuff! http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42039.0/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42039.0/)
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Mac:
Show me where on this website Moriarty suggested you should visit a golf architecture website and why it's so educational. Are you thinking of Moriarty making that suggestion or are you somehow getting him mixed up with me making that suggestion?
Frankly, I'm not aware that Moriarty ever has visited an architectural site project in the routing, design or construction phase. Maybe he has and maybe he hasn't. I have no idea at all. All I know is when I suggested to Ben Sims who seemed to want to do it that he invite Moriarty and MacWood to join him, Moriarty took great umbrage at that and accused me, for even mentioning it, of drinking too much wine or consulting some tea leaf effect in the dregs of a wine glass or some such other of his usual defensive, obviously highly insecure garbage on here.
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Post 27 on that link I posted. The thread is called "Golf Courses to Learn from".
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Post 27 on that link I posted. The thread is called "Golf Courses to Learn from".
Mac,
If you want to see a mini construction job being done (drainage, tee work, fairway shaping green and bunker construction) that is within about 15 minutes of your house, send me an IM :D
Chris Cupit
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Mac:
Thanks so much for that "find" on Moriarty mentioning to you the benefits of visiting site projects. I don't remember seeing that one and I wasn't aware he made that suggestion to you.
I noticed from that thread from a year and a half ago you sent me to that he did mention that to you on Post #27 and then he mentioned apparently he did that in Post #29. But he never mentioned where or when or with what architect or project he did that.
I wonder why? Do you suppose he thinks that kind of thing should be classified information for some odd reason and if so what in the world reason could that be?
Too bad he didn't just mention what site project it was on the thread I just started in the last 24 hours suggesting that everyone should do this for a helluva education rather than just jumping into his usual insult MO when I mentioned to Ben Sims on that recent thread of mine that he should invite Moriarty and MacWood to join him.
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There you go, Mac. Look at the post from Chris Cupit. Take him up on it by all means. You surely won't regret it. Spending project site time over the years on numerous projects with numerous archtiects is the best education on golf course architecture I've ever had and by a huge country mile.
That you may do that with Chris Cupit frankly makes this particular thread worthwhile to me. You will learn not just why architects do the things they do but why they sometimes have to do things they otherwise may not want to do.
There is no education on golf course architecture quite like project site time. I guarantee it.
And I would be most interested to learn what site and project Moriarty implied he visited and what he learned at it. ;)
Do you think I have a right to actually question him on what it was or if he actually did it since he implied on that thread you mentioned that he did?
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Tom...I reached out to Chris and anxiously look forward to that. And I agree with you, this could be an amazingly educational opportunity and it all came about from this thread and, therefore, this site. Stunning to me!!
As for your last question...that is not my business nor my place to voice an opinion.
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Go to that project site Mac; you will not believe what you will learn.
Once again, as with your trip to NGLA, I'd like you to visualize and imagine what you think it will be like to go out on a site project and then tell us later how your image differed from what you saw and learned.
Guys like you are most of the reason I'm on here anymore. Guys like you, J.C. Jones, Pallotta, Gill and some others are real learners and open-minded GCA analysts and historians and you're a joy to discuss things with. I don't think 10,000 MacWoods and Moriartys are worth a single one of you guys!
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TP and Mac,
The mini-x has Mac's name all over it and I will bring a camera! You will get to see a balancing act between Michael Riley, the architect and me with the checkbook!
Seriously, to watch the crew and architect work together to create something out of nothing is absolutely amazing. This is a 4-6 week project but you will see:
drainage work, creek bank restoration, tree removal, greens construction, bunker construction, fairway shaping, cart path removal and replacement (figuring out where to put the damn thing :() and watching me watch the budget and having to make painful decisions to say no to some great ideas.
Plus just listening to all the BS is pretty fun too ;D
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you'll learn to things:
1) golf course architecture is a lot less glamourous than the least glamourous experience in your life...
2) it's 10% concepts and ideas... the rest is just work (RW)
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Chris:
You're number 52 just makes my day and makes this thread worthwhile for me even if I have to put up with the usual Moriarty crap and posts from others like the following:
"This is hilarious. Tom starts a thread which he quickly turns into a continuation of his passive-aggressive campaign (assuming that was not in fact the impetus for the thread), calls out the usual suspects, then gets all offended when one of the targets returns fire."
Things like the above quote are just the minor distractions of life and the times on here compared to what I believe Mac Plumart is about to experience (and hopefully others with other projects) because of a thread thought like this one.
Thanks, Pal. What Mac Plumart is about to get into, in my book, is what GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is ultimately all about or should be.
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Tom Paul,
The last time I was on site during a golf course project was at Old Macdonald.
Looking over the Redan and the Road Hole I learned that Tom Doak and Jim Urbina have a far greater ability to visualize golf holes than I do.
Can't wait to see the finished product which may reallly confirm this point.
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Just like numerous other threads on here, this one's really going to excell..OH BOY, I CAN'T WAIT. ::)
JKM,
So you are anticipating another fun filled gca thread that is full of excrement....er I mean excitement?
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You're number 52 just makes my day and makes this thread worthwhile for me even if I have to put up with the usual Moriarty crap and posts from others like the following:
"This is hilarious. Tom starts a thread which he quickly turns into a continuation of his passive-aggressive campaign (assuming that was not in fact the impetus for the thread), calls out the usual suspects, then gets all offended when one of the targets returns fire."
Things like the above quote are just the minor distractions of life and the times on here compared to what I believe Mac Plumart is about to experience (and hopefully others with other projects) because of a thread thought like this one.
Since you've quoted me, I'll reply. When you made your original post, I thought this thread was going to be useful. If in your reply #6 you'd written only the first sentence and not the gratuitous second, this would have been a great thread solely for its educational value. But it turns out you aren't just content with pissing on others' threads - apparently if you don't see a suitable vehicle for tweaking a couple people, you must resort to using your own thread. That's OK in this case - we wound up with substantial entertainment value.
I imagine you'll blame others for misinterpreting what surely were your innocent observations. But your prods are few, predictable, and the worse for wear.
Mac and Ben, I look forward to your reports. I've gotten to see a couple sites under construction, and it's great stuff. If possible, I especially recommend walking in lots of greenside bunkers to get a feel for the myriad options they'll offer.
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Ben Sims:
What do you mean you have 30 days of leave? Are you in the military?
Let's find you a good project and site to go visit. Which architects would you most enjoy meeting and hanging around on a site with? Have you asked MacWood and Moriarty to join you yet? If so which architects do you feel they would most like to hang out with? For MacWood, I would personally recommend Ron Prichard. Moriarty is a bit harder to tell but Tom Fazio or Rees Jones just might be the ticket for him. Or if you guys would like to learn from a true "macro thinker" and with a military background and an incredible knack for all things Topo Maps, I would be delighted to introduce you all to my new best friend, the one and only LESTER George! He's a trip and if you really buy into his outlook then I suggest all of you go over to Afganistan with him and win this damn war for us once and for all.
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8) TEP,
I seem to remember a long time ago a thread where you were out in the hills or somewhere with C&C? Where or when or with what architect or project did you get to do that?
p.s. Bens Sims is a pilot and I believe has done more than his part in military service..
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Steve:
With Coore it was at particularly Friars Head and Hidden Creek which pretty much were going on simultaneously. Before that I got to know him and spent a number of days on a project called "Ardrossan" which was a move of my club and which never happened in the end. I've only met Ben Crenshaw once, at Friars Head, but for various reasons over the years I've talked to him on the phone quite a lot. Ben is one of the easiest guys to talk to I've ever known. You can't really deal with either of them on something like the Internet. I think they still joke that neither one of them even knows how to turn on a computer, and they don't plan on learning either.
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"p.s. Bens Sims is a pilot and I believe has done more than his part in military service.."
No problem. If Ben Sims goes to Afganistan with "Macro Guy" Lester George he may get to watch Lester design and plan a 670,000 square mile golf course outta the whole damn country. Lester likes big challenges and I hear the topography over there is a pretty big challenge. When Lester is reaming out the big redan bunker on his 57 mile long redan iteration it would not surprise me if he finds and captures that SOB Osama Bin Laden.
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He's a trip and if you really buy into his outlook then I suggest all of you go over to Afganistan with him and win this damn war for us once and for all.
We're not real big on ending wars around here, win or lose.
Joe
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He's a trip and if you really buy into his outlook then I suggest all of you go over to Afganistan with him and win this damn war for us once and for all.
We're not real big on ending wars around here, win or lose.
Joe
Good thread jack. Always a reason to start a war, never a reason to end one.
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that was some fun reading - Sans the cat fight. Having spent more time than I can remember on-site, I would guess that the one thing that would become evident is just how short one week really is. A couple other things:
How the scale of the site changes as different tasks are accomplished. For instance, laying out side by side golf house in an open field and it 'feels' like they are right on top of one another but clear 100' in a forest and you would think you have "all the room in the world to play in".
How many times what looks to be completed work is torn up to install more stuff - drainage, irr, etc.
How serine and beautiful a site is after the topsoil has been floated prior to seeding and the sun is setting over the landscape and all the shadows come out.
Alas, it takes more than just a week to take it all in. I would suggest at the least 4 weeks, one every couple months, just to get a sense of the magnitude of the undertaking and the metamorphis that the site goes through.
I realize it is far away from most (Ville Nurmi is the only local GCA'r I know of), but I will on-site shaping in Helsinki starting the end of Aug if anyone wants to stop by. Wish I had something closer but... not in this economy.
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Ben Sims:
What do you mean you have 30 days of leave? Are you in the military?
Let's find you a good project and site to go visit. Which architects would you most enjoy meeting and hanging around on a site with? Have you asked MacWood and Moriarty to join you yet? If so which architects do you feel they would most like to hang out with? For MacWood, I would personally recommend Ron Prichard. Moriarty is a bit harder to tell but Tom Fazio or Rees Jones just might be the ticket for him. Or if you guys would like to learn from a true "macro thinker" and with a military background and an incredible knack for all things Topo Maps, I would be delighted to introduce you all to my new best friend, the one and only LESTER George! He's a trip and if you really buy into his outlook then I suggest all of you go over to Afganistan with him and win this damn war for us once and for all.
Indeed. I'm in the Air Force. I fly trainers as an Instructor Pilot, with a former life as a C-17 pilot. Been to Iraq and Afghan on many, many occasions.
I'll probably contact any architects on my own Mr. Paul. Thank you for the help, but I doubt any of them would answer this sort of thing publicly, as it would create a firestorm of other wannabes like me wanting to trudge around a site being a walking insurance nightmare.
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"I'll probably contact any architects on my own Mr. Paul. Thank you for the help, but I doubt any of them would answer this sort of thing publicly, as it would create a firestorm of other wannabes like me wanting to trudge around a site being a walking insurance nightmare."
Contacts any architects you want on your own Ben, but if you want our help don't worry about petty stuff like insurance and such; we generally arrange this kind of thing through like the NSA or CIA and the like. ;)
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As an FYI, today Chris got me out to see his course and the work being done. Hole 7 was just finished, and hole 8 is being worked on right now, with 9 green to follow.
I took some photos of the work in progress on 8 and will get back out there as things progress and take photos of the finished hole.
Got to meet Chris, Mike Riley (the architect), and the crew. Awesome experience thus far. And the course looks truly amazing!! It might be one of the biggest hidden gems I've ever seen. No joke!
I'll post the pictures after my next visit, assuming it is ok with Chris.
Chris, thanks! This morning was awesome!!
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;D :D ;)
I think most would be shocked at how much the construction aspects of the job overwhelm the architecture discussions/ work....the architect needs to get his construction guys to understand his thoughts and plans .. this is why so many "name architects" used to refuse a job without imput on the construction company doing the work....mnay architects have confidence in people who knowtheir "style" ....I might argue that this isn't great and results in formulaic shaping and green sites ....THATS WHY architectural firms need loyalty from their key employees who really have some skills in this area, or the boss should stay on the job , this is often the key shapers . If you leave all the supervision of the work to the construction company watch out below!
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I'd like to see how the architect shapes green slopes. I'm amazed at the contours they build while having to take boring stuff like drainage into account.
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No, but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express.
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Yeah, Tom MacWood, I see on one of the high-tech click options of this website that you are looking at this old thread. As I have said to you for years on this website, spending a week or more on the site of an architectural project is something you should try which apparently you never have. Don't believe me, because you obviously don't like to----listen to others then----and if you do or can you would just not believe what you could and probably would learn about golf course architecture that you pretty obviously do not know.
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Its obviously done wonders for you.
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Yeah, Tom MacWood, I see on one of the high-tech click options of this website that you are looking at this old thread. As I have said to you for years on this website, spending a week or more on the site of an architectural project is something you should try which apparently you never have. Don't believe me, because you obviously don't like to----listen to others then----and if you do or can you would just not believe what you could and probably would learn about golf course architecture that you pretty obviously do not know.
Wow. TEPaul monitors Tom MacWood's movements from thread to thread. Creepy.
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We're all watching ;)
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As an FYI, today Chris got me out to see his course and the work being done. Hole 7 was just finished, and hole 8 is being worked on right now, with 9 green to follow.
I took some photos of the work in progress on 8 and will get back out there as things progress and take photos of the finished hole.
Got to meet Chris, Mike Riley (the architect), and the crew. Awesome experience thus far. And the course looks truly amazing!! It might be one of the biggest hidden gems I've ever seen. No joke!
I'll post the pictures after my next visit, assuming it is ok with Chris.
Chris, thanks! This morning was awesome!!
Mac,
It was my pleasure. I hope you can come back and watch more of the actual work. We began shaping of #9 green this morning and watching that process is pretty cool. As you saw, a lot of the stuff is standing around and giving each other a bunch of grief. ;D
Once they get going though the shapers are amazing. Come back and we'll even let you bring your bedazzled, PINK camera with you :D
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Just in case anyone was holding their breath for an update on this, here goes…
I’ve been out to Rivermont (Chris Cupit’s course) three times now. Twice to check up on the construction and once to play it (today with Bryan I.). It was really neat to talk to Chris and Mike Riley (the architect) about the changes taking place and how they designed it and went about actually building it. Cool stuff for me to see!! Thanks!!
Here are a few shots on hole #8 from the tee box…
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont8viewfromteebox.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont8teeboxII.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont8viewfromteeboxII.jpg)
And here is the approach shot…
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont8approach.jpg)
And here are some shots of the 9 green area…
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont9bunker.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont9frontbunker.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont9sideofgreen.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont9green.jpg)
And just for giggles, here are some more pictures from the course…
#16 approach…
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont16approach.jpg)
And the Redan #4…
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont4.jpg)
The experience of seeing the construction unfold was really neat and playing the course was great as well. If anything fits the bill of a true hidden gem, Rivermont does! Great work guys, great course!!
Thanks Chris, Mike and Bryan!!!
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I was fortunate enough to go through a major restoration at a Donald Ross golf course in the Boston area last Fall. Every original bunker was rebuilt, non-originals were removed, every green was rebuilt to USGA specs while retaining their original contours, the driving range was completely rebuilt, hundreds of trees were removed and several new tees were added all in about a fourteen week period. The short time-frame for which the project needed to be finished allowed for a hectic and chaotic but incredible (for lack of a better word) experience. With so many things to pay attention to and so many opportunities to learn, those fourteen weeks seemed like fourteen days. The day I spent in a skid-steer roughing out and then shaping one of our new bunkers was for me, the experience of a lifetime.