Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mike Cirba on March 25, 2010, 10:15:30 PM
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Juniata was the site of my first golf shot on a course- the infamous first hole at Juniata is a 150y downhiller which could be played with a putter if one chose to do so as it was a really "fast and firm" course. I usually brought a small hammer to use in order to pound a tee in the ground.
It is no longer a muni as it has been operated the past 2 years by a non profit foundation organized by a Philly police officer. I understand conditions have improved there under this group's management. The clubhouse burned down a few years ago. Joe Logan's articles on Juniata are no longer online.
Here's a capsule on the course:
http://delvalley.golfersguide.com/index.php?option=com_ggms&task=course_detail&course_id=2643&Itemid=95
More courses like Juniata need to be built so that beginners and seniors can learn play golf and even walk while doing so.
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Mike
Do you think Wilson's involvement at Cobbs Creek and Juniata helps or hurts his architectural legacy?
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Mike
Do you think Wilson's involvement at Cobbs Creek and Juniata helps or hurts his architectural legacy?
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However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
I've played Cobbs many times and like the course, but this is an asinine statement, even for you, Mike.
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David,
Please name a better, more highly regarded public course between 1916 and 1930.
The fact that you "like the course", even in a state of maintenance disrepair during the time you were here with 33% of it lost to a compromised, greatly constricted routing is pretty amazing, I think.
Have a great day! ;D
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David,
Please name a better, more highly regarded public course between 1916 and 1930.
The fact that you "like the course", even in a state of maintenance disrepair during the time you were here with 33% of it lost to a compromised, greatly constricted routing is pretty amazing, I think.
Have a great day! ;D
I think David is more saying that your proof is akin to proving I've never been to Houston by showing a picture of every building in town without me in front of it.
I think it's safe to have that as an opinion, but without proper context it must remain just that.
I agree it probably was the, if not one of the, top publicly run golf courses in the country at the time frame you suggest - but that is nothing more than an opinion.
As for Juniata - I was very pleasantly surprised at the amount of good stuff under all the years of neglect. The 17th and 18th are very good.
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Kyle,
Are any of us ever offering any more than hopefully informed and sometimes evidence-based "opinion" in any of our discussions here once we get beyond the uncovering and later regurgitation of dry facts?
Joe Bausch has posted contemporaneous, lengthy articles from rival New York papers lauding the course as well beyond anything the city had, and many other articles throughout the 20s are similarly complimentary. Perhaps David missed those in his absence.
If David didn't agree with my "opinion", he could have said so and offered a contrary opinion of his own, and perhaps tried to show similar evidence that some other course or courses at that time were infinitely superior. Instead, he took the cheap and easy road and just shot me another personal insult.
That's fine. It just doesn't make for very interesting or informing discussion.
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Mike
Do you think Wilson's involvement at Cobbs Creek and Juniata helps or hurts his architectural legacy?
However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
I think that's the offending line, that's all.
I know it's infuriating, but these guys are right about the way the information is presented.
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Kyle,
Should we consider opinion here to be self-evident, or should we have to qualify each written statement of opinion with "My opinion is...", or "I believe that...", or "I would venture to venture that..."....
;) ;D
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David,
Please name a better, more highly regarded public course between 1916 and 1930.
You are confused Mike. I am not the one who made the outrageously ignorant proclamation about the vast superiority of Cobb's Creek to every other public course in the nation!! I can't exactly place Cobb's Creek among the hundreds (thousands?) of public courses in existence at the time, because I haven't done a comprehensive study of all the public courses in existence prior to 1936.
Mike Cirba, have you done a comprehensive study of all the public courses opened in the United States before 1936?
- If so, why don't you educate us with your comparative analysis of these and Cobbs.
- If not, then why do you continue to make such asinine pronouncements about matters so far beyond your narrow knowledge base?
The fact that you "like the course", even in a state of maintenance disrepair during the time you were here with 33% of it lost to a compromised, greatly constricted routing is pretty amazing, I think.
This is a good example the sort of specious reasoning that you just cannot seem to escape. What makes you think I am incapable of seeing past the maintenance issues to the quality of the course? What makes you think I am not familiar with what has happened there over the years or that I am incapable of taking that into consideration? What do you know about when I have seen Cobb's or what I know about the place generally?
Of course none of this matters to you, because you are totally agenda driven, result driven. Your predetermined answers shape every supposed question you pretend to ask. That's why you are Philadelphia's Phavorite Phawning sycoPHant.
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Kyle,
Should we consider opinion here to be self-evident, or should we have to qualify each written statement of opinion with "My opinion is...", or "I believe that...", or "I would venture to venture that..."....
;) ;D
Well yes, that can get tedious. But, you did specifically say "fact" in that line.
Perhaps we should just move on in the discussion from the superlatives?
I got it. Let's do a hole by hole match play with Cobbs in the original configuration and some of the other publics? I know it's not everyone's cup of tea - but I think it could be a very lively and fun discussion!
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I know it's infuriating, but these guys are right about the way the information is presented.
Kyle,
Now that's an opinion I find to be very amusing.
I think it's obvious that since no one is buying their theories these days, "these guys" have nothing left to do but sit in the cheap seats and throw potshots when they see opportunity.
Must be a lot of fun, I guess, but "infuriating" is hardly the reaction they are getting from me.
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I know it's infuriating, but these guys are right about the way the information is presented.
Kyle,
Now that's an opinion I find to be very amusing.
I think it's obvious that since no one is buying their theories these days, "these guys" have nothing left to do but sit in the cheap seats and throw potshots when they see opportunity.
Must be a lot of fun, I guess, but "infuriating" is hardly the reaction they are getting from me.
Sometimes the fans in the cheap seats see a bad call on the field.
They're right Mike. They may not be the best at it and may be just trying to be jerks - but they are right.
How about my second point? Think that'd be fun? I'm game.
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David,
Have a great day! ;D
Kyle,
If someone (David included) wants to nominate other public courses from that era for hole-by-hole matchplay-discussion I'd be happy to participate.
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I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time. Any other munis from the same time which were its equal were mighty fine courses.
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David,
Oh, Master Mental Masturb*tor and Misinterpreting Maven of Most things Merion. ;) ;D
I figured you woudn't have a viable alternative as a public golf course from that era that you'd want to nominate. ::)
Kyle,
If someone (David included) wants to nominate other public courses from that era for hole-by-hole matchplay-discussion I'd be happy to participate.
Mike,
Regardless of the intent, the burden of proof lies on those making the claim. You can't negate the opposition for not offering contrary evidence since your argument isn't complete yet. Come now, I figured you would have watched at least one Leary/Liddy debate in your time ;)
Let's dig for some candidates.
I've got an interesting one: Babe Zaharias in Tampa (J. Franklyn Meehan!).
How about Van Cortlandt Park?
Harding Park in San Francisco?
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I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time.
Mike, you look really good for about 100 years old. I hope I can look as good as you when I get to that milestone! ;)
In all seriousness, let's get to Paxon Hollow sometime this year. It looks really good.
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I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time.
Michael,
It's interesting you say that, because I've also played many, if not most of the historical public courses from that time.
In fact, despite my "narrow experience", or whatever else was represented about me above, I've played all the historic public city courses of New York, Baltimore, New Orleans, Atlanta, District of Columbia, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Garden City, Sioux Falls, Minneapolis, San Antonio, San Diego, Denver, Miami, Newark, Wilmington, Elmira, Phoenix, Tucson, and others.
One of my favorite things to do in visiting any city is to find the oldest public course(s) in town and venture out to play them. Many times, no one has ever had much money to futz with them and many of the vintage architectural features and charm are intact.
Kyle,
I don't have to "prove" anything, and the last thing the world needs is another circuitous, long-running argument pointlessly argued without end, redundantly on GCA.
Lord help us...
Those who think my opinion (based on travels and experience) is worthwhile will perhaps find my opinion of value and those who do not (for whatever reason) will not.
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I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time.
Michael,
It's interesting you say that, because I've also played many, if not most of the historical public courses from that time.
In fact, despite my "narrow experience", or whatever else was represented about me above, I've played all the historic public city courses of New York, Baltimore, New Orleans, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, Denver, Miami, Newark, Wilmington, Elmira, Phoenix, Tucson, and many others.
One of my favorite things to do in visiting any city is to find the oldest public course(s) in town and venture out to play them. Many times, no one has ever had much money to futz with them and many of the vintage architectural features and charm are intact.
Kyle,
I don't have to "prove" anything, and the last thing the world needs is another circuitous, long-running argument pointlessly argued without end, redundantly on GCA.
Lord help us...
Those who think my opinion (based on travels and experience) is worthwhile will perhaps find my opinion of value and those who do not (for whatever reason) will not.
That's fine, but don't utter the "f word," as a result. Fact requires proof, don't you agree? Like I said, I agree with your opinion.
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Kyle,
I should have said, "the fact that during those years, Cobb's Creek was the most highly regarded course in the country in the opinion of many of the pundits who wrote at all about public courses", but that gets too long to type. ;)
I'm heading out...too nice a day.
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Back on the first page of this discussion, Kyle Harris tried to turn Mike's hyperbolic boasting into a positive discussion about early quality design. At that point, I responded . . . .
Kyle,
I appreciate your attempts to turn this conversation into something positive, but Mike Cirba has no interest in actually discussing the top pre-1936 public courses in the country, not unless he can easily be twisted into something that fits his agenda.
I'd be very interested in an intelligent conversation of the early quality public designs, but Mike Cirba has no place in that conversation!
Mike, your immature efforts to derail the threads continue to prove me correct. But enough already. Fix the title of the thread and move along.
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As I experience the current routing and imagine the original I'm most impressed with the routing as what makes the original more interesting . If the routing is the test of the architect's skill then whoever routed Cobbs was a very good architect. Taking the course up the hill on #6 is the most important decision that was made. Then breaking up the back and forth across the top of the ridge that now exists is also a more interesting use of the land. The amazing par five # 11 had to be rivaled by few par fives anywhere. The drop shot #12 was a wonderful transition back down the hill. #9 was an angled fairway that we all admire in Flynn's work. #10 at 200 yards uphill would have been a challenge to play. #13 was a serpentine par five with blindness on the approach.
I'm sure if David Moriarity really imagined what I do he wouldn't be saying what he did.
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David,
I understand Mike's tendency to get overly enthused about Cobbs. That's what fuels his efforts for its restoration. Your "lawyerly" attacks are just boorish attempts to catch someone in hyperbole and try to pillory them.
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David,
He's interested, on some level. I just think making superlative statements takes away from such analysis. If something is the best, why discuss it?
It's the best, Jerry! The best!
I'd be curious to discuss the various ways to play the opening hole. How that compares to other openers, public and private, etc. It's always been interesting to me that the first tee shot can be attempted in a variety of approaches but the real need to make a 4 on the hole plays into the mind of the golfer and perhaps clouds that decision.
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Kyle,
I try to get as close to the creek on the left leaving a shorter approach even though the angle is less favorable and the bunker by the green becomes an issue. It certainly is better than the lame #1 at BPB.
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Kyle,
I try to get as close to the creek on the left leaving a shorter approach even though the angle is less favorable and the bunker by the green becomes an issue. It certainly is better than the lame #1 at BPB.
Agreed.
And I think playing out to the right is the key. A restoration of the bunker and fairway around the green would make your angle much more difficult with the potential to be on the road!
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Mike Malone.
Thanks for the insults. Nothing as pertinent as bashing a lawyer who hasn't practiced in years.
I think Cobb's was likely a very good course. I'd like to be a supporter of legitimate attempts to get it respectfully restored. But pretending it is more that it was and or hyping it well beyond reason is dishonest and counterproductive, and is probably not in Cobb's best interest in the long run. Certainly it cuts against what this website is supposed to be about. This is not the first or only time Cirba has pulled this crap. It is a running theme with him, and he cannot seem to control himself. Perhaps if his friends were less willing to put up with his endless embarrassments he wouldn't put himself in these positions. But I guess that isn't the Philadelphia way.
Bottom line is that if Cirba wants to make the case for what he is claiming then let him make it. But you and I both know that he is entirely incapable of making such case. Pardon me for expecting better on this website.
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Kyle,
I'm sure Cirba would be glad to discuss Cobb's forever, but whether Mike is capable of understanding this or not, his comment wasn't just about Cobb's so much as it was about how Cobb's compared to all of the other public courses that existed in he country prior to 1936! But the rest of the courses are apparently nothing but stepping stones from on top of which he can phoist Cobb's ever higher.
While I don't think this is the place for this conversation or Mike a worthy participant, such a discussion would have to start with identifying the better public courses that existed prior to 1936. I am not qualified to offer such list in any completeness, and I doubt anyone here is except possibly for Tom MacWood. Might be a good question to throw open in a different thread, but surely Mike will find a way into turning that into his 932nd thread about the greatness of the usual suspects.
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David,
The thing is, there is significance in these finds. I think what's been underlying is that a massive public campaign can push for accessible municipal golf AND that it requires a public backing to maintain and assemble that.
Furthermore, we can probably learn a little about a certain design process since the methods were so publically reported. In the context of later writings of the players involved, we can use Cobbs as an interesting gauge of the on-going process of learning golf architecture away from prior methods - namely template use.
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Kyle,
I agree that the "finds" are significant. Despite the numbskulls who surround him, Joe Bausch has been a tremendous asset to this website. The travesty is the way these "finds" are twisted to support conjecture that they just do not support. I am a bit shocked that Joe Bausch puts up with it, but to each his own i guess.
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David,
Have a great day! ;D
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David,
I'm glad you came back to show everyone your true colors.
You sound like a very unhappy man and I feel pity for you.
As usual Mike, you are wrong on all counts.
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"I agree that the "finds" are significant. Despite the numbskulls who surround him, Joe Bausch has been a tremendous asset to this website. The travesty is the way these "finds" are twisted to support conjecture that they just do not support. I am a bit shocked that Joe Bausch puts up with it, but to each his own i guess."
Apparently you think a tremendous asset to this website is someone who doesn't carefully question how a numbskull like you twists his "finds" to support conjecture that those "finds" don't support. Exhibit A is the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" and your months of convoluted and idiotic follow-up commentary on here to support it.
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Apparently you think a tremendous asset to this website is someone who doesn't carefully question how a numbskull like you twists his "finds" to support conjecture that those "finds" don't support. Exhibit A is the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" and your months of convoluted and idiotic follow-up commentary on here to support it.
Yawn.
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Like it or not Mike, my critique of your methodology is dead-on. I mean look at this last post! I doubt anyone is surprised you can come to such far reaching and ridiculous conclusions about me (even how I spent my day?) based on so little information. Typical, even in your indignation.
However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
I've played Cobbs many times and like the course, but this is an asinine statement, even for you, Mike.
What else can I say Mike? It was and is an asinine statement. Even for you.
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You know, is it really not possible for you people to act like grown ass men and not like a couple of teenage girls having a slap fight?
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Mike-You actually covered just about every point possible in your last post. So David can't get over the fact that you called his essay junk, fine. I've told him, personally off the board, that I thought the same thing about his essay for reasons that might be a bit different than yours, but I told him nonetheless. However, that comment was directed towards him as well, not just you. The both of you act like children, your sharp remark to Tom MacWood about "whether you like it or not" starting the whole matter and now its just spiraled downhill quickly like it tends to do, and did on ever how many other threads. At this point, this thread has degenerated into a two-way pissing contest between the two of you, the other major combatants from other threads haven't dared to wade into this water.
And yeah, maybe you should just ignore him, if thats the case. If you quite responding to him, he'll run out of stuff to say eventually. Thats what I would do.
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Mike, for what its worth, I didn't really consider Tom MacWood's comment to be insulting or inflammatory. I did, to a certain degree, think your's was meant as a real snap back and not entirely civil. But whatever, these threads all tend to go downhill fast, sadly.
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However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
Is that right?
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Was Cobbs Creek better and more challenging than all these golf courses? By the way that is a rhetorical question.
Harding Park (1925)
Haggins Oak (1932)
Sharp Park (1931)
Griffith Park (1923)
Lake Chabot (1923)
Brookside Muni (1928)
Patty Jewett (1919)
Rock Manor (1921)
Jacksonville Muni (1923)
Hyde Park, Fl (1924)
Bobby Jones (1926)
Tarpon Springs (1927)
Savanah Muni (1926)
Deerpath (1927)
Sandy Hollow (1930)
St. Andrews (1926)
Duck Creek (1920)
Coffin (1920)
Waveland (1901)
Erskine Park (1925)
Keller (1929)
Seneca (1935)
Riverside Muni (1931)
Mount Pleasant (1933)
Rackham (1924)
Swope Park (1934)
Forest Park (1908)
Bayside (1930)
Salisbury Links (1908)
La Tourette (1930)
Split Rock
Durand-Eastman (1934)
Hyde Park, NY (1927)
Bethpage-Red (1935)
Bethpage-Blue (1935)
Ashville Muni (1927)
Ottawa Park (1898)
Community (1912)
Mill Creek (1928)
Eastmoreland (1918)
Hershey Park (1931)
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924)
Brackenridge Park (1917)
Memorial Park (1935)
Brown Deer (1929)
Triggs Memorial (1933)
Indian Canyon (1935)
Janesville Muni
Nemadji Muni (1932)
East Potomac (1920)
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It didn't take long; I have a lot of resources. I missed a couple of Chicago entries:
Harding Park (1925)
Haggins Oak (1932)
Sharp Park (1931)
Griffith Park (1923)
Lake Chabot (1923)
Brookside Muni (1928)
Patty Jewett (1919)
Rock Manor (1921)
Jacksonville Muni (1923)
Hyde Park, Fl (1924)
Bobby Jones (1926)
Tarpon Springs (1927)
Savanah Muni (1926)
Big Run (1930)
Deerpath (1927)
Glencoe (1923)
Palos (1919)
St. Andrews (1926)
Sandy Hollow (1930)
Duck Creek (1920)
Waveland (1901)
Beechwood (1931)
Coffin (1920)
Erskine Park (1925)
Keller (1929)
Seneca (1935)
Riverside Muni (1931)
Mount Pleasant (1933)
Rackham (1924)
Swope Park (1934)
Forest Park (1908)
Bayside (1930)
Salisbury Links (1908)
La Tourette (1930)
Split Rock (1901)
Durand-Eastman (1934)
Hyde Park, NY (1927)
Bethpage-Red (1935)
Bethpage-Blue (1935)
Ashville Muni (1927)
Ottawa Park (1898)
Community (1912)
Mill Creek (1928)
Eastmoreland (1918)
Hershey Park (1931)
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924)
Brackenridge Park (1917)
Memorial Park (1935)
Brown Deer (1929)
Triggs Memorial (1933)
Indian Canyon (1935)
Janesville Muni (1924)
Nemadji Muni (1932)
East Potomac (1920)
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Tom M., I don't see Fox Hills on there. And since I just got back from trip around the USA playing all these courses in my time machine, I'm quite certain that it was the best......
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Tom M., I don't see Fox Hills on there. And since I just got back from trip around the USA playing all these courses in my time machine, I'm quite certain that it was the best......
David,
Your sarcasm is humorous and appreciated, but I have two questions.
1) When did Fox Hills open?
2) How do we know that Garden City and Myopia were the most highly regarded courses in the early 1900s, and then how do we know that NGLA was generally acknowledged as the best course in this country after opening, and then how do we know that Pine Valley is generally acknowedged to have supplanted it a few years later?
Is any such time machine that you refer to necessary? Did either of us play NGLA in 1911, or Pine Valley in 1918? Or, do we use old news accounts and contemporaneous accounts from that period? ;)
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Mike,
If I was able to travel back in time I would be tempted to find myself on a specific train traveling from Atlanta and to see if one Mr. Barker got off at Philadelphia and follow him that day to see where he goes and what he does... Oh wait, this is the wrong thread...
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Mike, you're describing courses that are considered amongst the best. If I'm not mistaken, you're saying before Bethpage, Cobbs Creek was considered the best public course, no?
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Here is my first attempt to add the architects with the courses, hopefully I can figure out the rest.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924)
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924)
Nemadji Muni (1932)
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Tom M., I don't see Fox Hills on there. And since I just got back from trip around the USA playing all these courses in my time machine, I'm quite certain that it was the best......
I wanted to add Fox Hills in the worst way but I'm pretty sure it began as a private course.
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Mike,
If I was able to travel back in time I would be tempted to find myself on a specific train traveling from Atlanta and to see if one Mr. Barker got off at Philadelphia and follow him that day to see where he goes and what he does... Oh wait, this is the wrong thread...
That is funny, but what would be funnier is trying to somehow turn this into a tilly thread!!!!! ;)
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Here is my first attempt to add the architects with the courses, hopefully I can figure out the rest.
Patty Jewett (1919) -
Brackenridge Park (1917)
Patty Jewett (1919) - Willie Campbell (not of TCC fame)
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.W. Tillinghast
If the Memorial Park in the one in Houston - John Bredemus
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Tom you dated Brackenridge Park incorrectly.
Brackenridge Park was open for play on November 28, 1916.
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Tom,
Is there a purpose to your non-sequitur of a list? Are we supposed to be impressed by the architects involved? Why did it take you over a week to name some of the best public ourses from that era, mixed in with a lot of junk? What is the context of your list and why do you name the courses you did? Is spending time trying to look up virtually every public course built by a significant architect during the period, whether the course had substance and standing when it was built supposed to somehow add value to this thread, or simply just listed to appear relevant to those without deeper interest or understanding of that time period?
What can you tell us about the course at Rock Manor that made your list?
How about "Split Rock", from 1901? Which Forest Park from 1908 are you referring to?
How about East Potomac? Have you been there? What did you think of it? La Tourette?? Have you played it?
Brackenridge Park? What architectural features most impressed you?
Perhaps you can describe why you've included courses built after 1930, when I qualified twice on the other thread that I was referring to courses prior to the Depression, and why you then needed to include 33% of your courses in that 5 year time period between 1930-35?
How many of the courses listed have you seen or played? Any of them??
Mike
This is my take on the best public courses in the country pre-1936. It took me this long because I was not following this thread (the second thread on public courses sparked me). I've grown tired of your never ending Cobbs Creek & Hugh Wilson pump jobs. The list is based on contemporaneous reports and profiles. I think you will find that there are as many unknown or unsung architects as high profile. Rock Manor was designed by Wilfred Reid. Split Rock was a significant VanKleek redesign during the Robert Moses era. Forest Park is in St. Louis. East Potomac was a well respected course the result of a collaboration between Travis & White. It was designed to played conventionally or in reverse, and hosted the second US Publinx in 1923. I've not played the course. I've not played Le Tourette either, but it was also a well respect public course. I've not played Brackenridge Park, but evidently you were impressed by it because you place in your top 10. I don't believe you ever mentioned the Depression on this thread...I'm simply responding to your claim CC was the best most challenging course prior to Bethpage (1936). You can back down all you want on that other thread. 66% of these courses are prior to the Depression if it matters. I've played a handful of these courses.
Where do you think CC would fall in this group? I'm thinking somewhere in the middle of the pack and that is on a good day, a very good day.
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Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - J.Bredemus
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Tom,
You might want to add Westwood Public Golf Course (Max Behr) which opened in 1927, as well as Sunset Fields (William P. Bell) which opened around the same time. I believe Sunset Fields had two 18 holes courses and a 9 hole course. Also, Griffith Park (Thomas) is actually two courses (Wilson and Harding) as is Brookside in Pasadena.
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Tom,
Is there a purpose to your non-sequitur of a list? Are we supposed to be impressed by the architects involved? Why did it take you over a week to name some of the best public ourses from that era, mixed in with a lot of junk? What is the context of your list and why do you name the courses you did? Is spending time trying to look up virtually every public course built by a significant architect during the period, whether the course had substance and standing when it was built supposed to somehow add value to this thread, or simply just listed to appear relevant to those without deeper interest or understanding of that time period?
What can you tell us about the course at Rock Manor that made your list?
How about "Split Rock", from 1901? Which Forest Park from 1908 are you referring to?
How about East Potomac? Have you been there? What did you think of it? La Tourette?? Have you played it?
Brackenridge Park? What architectural features most impressed you?
Perhaps you can describe why you've included courses built after 1930, when I qualified twice on the other thread that I was referring to courses prior to the Depression, and why you then needed to include 33% of your courses in that 5 year time period between 1930-35?
How many of the courses listed have you seen or played? Any of them??
Mike
This is my take on the best public courses in the country pre-1936. It took me this long because I was not following this thread (the second thread on public courses sparked me). I've grown tired of your never ending Cobbs Creek & Hugh Wilson pump jobs. The list is based on contemporaneous reports and profiles. I think you will find that there are as many unknown or unsung architects as high profile. Rock Manor was designed by Wilfred Reid. Split Rock was a significant VanKleek redesign during the Robert Moses era. Forest Park is in St. Louis. East Potomac was a well respected course the result of a collaboration between Travis & White. It was designed to played conventionally or in reverse, and hosted the second US Publinx in 1923. I've not played the course. I've not played Le Tourette either, but it was also a well respect public course. I've not played Brackenridge Park, but evidently you were impressed by it because you place in your top 10. I don't believe you ever mentioned the Depression on this thread...I'm simply responding to your claim CC was the best most challenging course prior to Bethpage (1936). You can back down all you want on that other thread. 66% of these courses are prior to the Depression if it matters. I've played a handful of these courses.
Where do you think CC would fall in this group? I'm thinking somewhere in the middle of the pack and that is on a good day, a very good day.
Tom,
For Split Rock, do you mean the Pelham Golf Course on site because I believe the split rock course was a new 18 hole course and the pelham course is the original course by Lawrenc Van Etten that was renovated by John Van Kleek.
Thanks,
Chris
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Chris
You're right, but I think at one time it was one 27-hole complex (old + new).
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I added Wilmington Muni, Tam O'Shanter and North Park.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - J.Bredemus
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Chris
You're right, but I think at one time it was one 27-hole complex (old + new).
I thought it was just the Pelham Golf Course by Van Eten and Van Kleek came in and renovated the 18 hole course and added 18 new holes.
Chris
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I added Wilmington Muni, Tam O'Shanter and North Park.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - J.Bredemus
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
Good call on Tam O'Shanter.
Are you sure than John Van Kleek was the designer of La Tourette golf course?
Where is North Park located?
Thanks,
Chris
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Good call on Tam O'Shanter.
Are you sure than John Van Kleek was the designer of La Tourette golf course?
Where is North Park located?
Thanks,
Chris
Chris
Van Kleek was Robert Moses' golf architect for the municipal courses around NYC. He designed and redesigned a number of courses for Moses in the 1930s and I'm pretty certain La Tourette was one of them. North Park is in Pittsburgh.
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Mike
I like the way you have diversified. In the past you attempted to throw the reputations of CBM, Whigham and Barker under the bus in order to pump up Wilson (at least that is what you thought you were doing), now you are trying to throw some of the top public courses from the 20s and 30s under another bus in an attempt to pump up CC.
Eight down, only about 48 more to go....keep up the good work.
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Mike
I found this in the 1930-31 American Golf Guide and thought you might find it interesting.
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TMac,
I enjoyed your list of names of designers and thought this info might help you flesh out what to put next to Stevens Park. I researched that a bit years ago when I was doing a master plan there and wrote this:
"Siblings Walter and Annie Stevens in memory of their parents donated about 40 acres about the same time as land was donated for Tennison Park (note, I think this was 1924, as Tmac lists)
In 1927-8, the city purchased 90 acres from developer L.A. Stemmons, who was developing several subdivisions in Oak Cliff, for $140,803.00, and in 1941, the final twelve acres near Hampton Road came from the Catholic Church, bringing the park to its current total of 141 acres.
Stevens Park has hosted many fine golfers, some of whom went on to prominence on the PGA Tour, including Ralph Guldahl and Frank Beard. It also has a place in DFW public golf history in its ease of integrating the facility. After several Ft. Worth courses experience trouble with integration, a group of African American golfers simply asked to play one day in 1957, and were allowed on the course without incident."
I recall reading that there was another city course sit in floodplain land consisting of about three holes, probably designed primarily for minorities at about the same time. Obviously, public golf was a bit of a scatter shot in the very early days.
As you can see, the course that exists today couldn't have come into existence until at least 1941. The 1924 version was probably less than 18 holes, and probably just laid out by some now unknown local golfers. Maybe Bredemus helped with the initial layout when he was doing Tennison, who knows.
This is just another example of the problem of trying to attribute those old courses with one gca name. While the private clubs picked the name gca's, those public courses had in many cases even more obscure and indefinite early histories. At least, SP did. I am sure there are others.
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Good call on Tam O'Shanter.
Are you sure than John Van Kleek was the designer of La Tourette golf course?
Where is North Park located?
Thanks,
Chris
Chris
Van Kleek was Robert Moses' golf architect for the municipal courses around NYC. He designed and redesigned a number of courses for Moses in the 1930s and I'm pretty certain La Tourette was one of them. North Park is in Pittsburgh.
Tom,
I know Van Kleek worked for Moses I have posted information about this many years ago (and I have played almost all of the NYC public golf courses), but if JV did anything at La Tourette, it was minimal at best, I believe the 18 hole course was already in place.
I like a lot of the research that you do Tom and appreciate it, but North Park is a stretch for that list. Just so my motives are not misconstrued, I do play alot of public golf courses and am always looking to seek out quality older public courses that I may not have played.
Chris
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Chris
La Touqette was expanded from a nine holes to eighteen by Van Kleek. Regarding North Park I don't know if the course has been changed over the years or not, but I do it was very highly regarded back in the day. It must have been pretty difficult too, in the 1965 US Publinx there were only two rounds below par, both -1 70s.
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Jeff
From what I understand Tenison was designed by SJ Cooper and Jack Burke, both local pros. Cooper was the father of Lighthorse Harry Cooper and Burke the father of Jackie Burke, Jr. In 1926 the course was 27 holes, 18 holes 6400 yds and 9 holes 3200 yds. I'm not sure if Bredemus was also involved or not.
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I added Starmount Forest. I'm not sure how I missed it - there were some (including Sam Snead) who thought it was the best public course in the country
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Jeff
According to the American Golf Guide Stevens Park was a 9-hole course at least through 1927 (I've not seen the 1928 or 1929 Guides) but by 1930 it was listed as an 18-hole course, so sometime between 1927 and 1930 it was expanded. By who, I don't know, but Bredemus would probably be a likely candidate.
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I removed Wilmington...it still had sand greens in the early 1950s. I changed the attribution on La Tourette and Split Rock.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) -E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Mike
There may have been changes to Ottawa Park in the 20s, but Jermain was definitely behind the work in 1898 and 1908 when the original nine and second nine were laid out. Hence his title as "Father of Toledo Golf" and "Father of Public Golf in Toledo." He was also an original founder of Inverness in 1903. I believe he was that club's first president.
I've already cleared up Split Rock.
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Tom,
At least you're willing to learn as you go.
Jermain's work at Toledo's Ottawa Park didn't happen until the early 20s, when he worked with James Standish to revamp the course for the first US Public Links, which Standish (a Toledo guy) was essentially the father of.
Still, news accounts of the tourney seem to indicate a lot of 270 yard par fours.
You may also want to clear up your confusion about Split Rock and Pelham Bay, which are two separate courses operating out of the same clubhouse. The latter was designed by Lawrence Van Etten in 1908, and was the best of the NYC munis until the Depression. It's still a pretty good course, but Split Rock, built in the 30s' is really good.
And I was the first to point out the Pelham / Split Rock attribution / difference!!! ;D
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Chris,
You've got it! I don't care who gets credit for this stuff...I just love that so much of it is coming out.
For all of my differences of opinion with Mr. MacWood, I think he does a great job with his research and I'm happy he does it.
Mike,
I agree that he does amazing research.
Chris
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Would the courses that the USGA picked to host the Publinx Championship during these years give us any indication of what courses were considered amongst the best of their day?
(My home internet is down or I'd look them up myself)
Peter
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Would the courses that the USGA picked to host the Publinx Championship during these years give us any indication of what courses were considered amongst the best of their day?
(My home internet is down or I'd look them up myself)
Peter
Yes and no. I think all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best, for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red, Memorial Park, Harding Park or Starmount Forest never hosted the event.
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Here is an article from 1935 that touches on Van Kleek's work in NYC.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1935/ag3810q.pdf
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"Mike
I like the way you have diversified. In the past you attempted to throw the reputations of CBM, Whigham and Barker under the bus in order to pump up Wilson (at least that is what you thought you were doing), now you are trying to throw some of the top public courses from the 20s and 30s under another bus in an attempt to pump up CC.
Eight down, only about 48 more to go....keep up the good work."
I think the above quote shows crystal clear what MacWood's agenda is on this website and should also show crystal clear to those discerning contributors on this website why he is a GCA research and GCA analytical sham on this website. In the future I hope to show how the new and still structuring USGA Architecture Archve can be a superior entity to promote far better collaborative research and analytical development of the architectural histories of clubs, courses and architects. I feel the latter and the latter method will be much more productive educationally and otherwise for all concerned-----eg clubs, historians, GCA students and others.
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Once again, the facts get in the way of Mike's phacts . . .
. . .
1923 (June) Richard J. Walsh d. J. Stewart Whitham, 6 & 5; E. Potomac Park, Washington, D.C.; Medalist - 153, Raymond J. McAuliffe; Entries: 142
. . .
Incidentally, not that difficulty equals greatness, but the 152 36-hole Medalist score at Cobb's Creek remains the highest in the history of the tournament.
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Tom Macwood,
You stated, "Yes and no. I think all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best, for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red... never hosted the event."
You are wrong in this. Although the Black course didn't host the Publinks it was CHOSEN to be the host course. Because of construction delays one of the other courses took its place. That would be the RED course. The BLUE course was ALWAYS part of the TWO courses needed to host the event.
Itv was the BLUE course which served as the course for the final rounds. What you also don't realize is that the original BLUE course was considered to be a better and far more challenging course than the Red which is why it was chosen as one of the original two hosts and was also then chosen to be the site of the final rounds since the Black was no longer going to be used.
Bethpage RED hosted the event along with the BLUE course.
Also, in your lists you keep citing 1917 as the year Brackenridge Park opened for play... it didn't. November 28, 1916 is the correct date.
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Once again, the facts get in the way of Mike's phacts . . .
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1923 (June) Richard J. Walsh d. J. Stewart Whitham, 6 & 5; E. Potomac Park, Washington, D.C.; Medalist - 153, Raymond J. McAuliffe; Entries: 142
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Incidentally, not that difficulty equals greatness, but the 152 36-hole Medalist score at Cobb's Creek remains the highest in the history of the tournament.
My mistake, David...thanks for pointing it out. I guess I didn't see that one in going through all the years.
Still a pretty brutal 36 hole total against par of 142, with only 8 men breaking 160, wouldn't you agree?
Tom MacWood,
You may have missed one, as well.
1937 (Aug.) Bruce N. McCormick d. Don Erickson, 1 up; Harding Park, San Francisco, Calif.; Medalist - 139, Don Erickson; Entries: 190
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Tom,
You might want to add Westwood Public Golf Course (Max Behr) which opened in 1927, as well as Sunset Fields (William P. Bell) which opened around the same time. I believe Sunset Fields had two 18 holes courses and a 9 hole course. Also, Griffith Park (Thomas) is actually two courses (Wilson and Harding) as is Brookside in Pasadena.
David
I couldn't find anything on Westwood. Is that Montebello Park? I'm adding both Sunset Fields courses; they were both top notch. Originally I'd thought they had been private before going public (like Fox Hills), but I confirmed they began as public courses. The Harding course at Griffith Park was the course I was including. The first 18 at Pasadena was the superior course from all accounts. Bell added 9 holes in 1930, which was referred to as a practice nine, and then some point another nine was added. I'm not sure when or by whom.
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I added the two courses at Sunset Fields (NLE) and Metropolitan Parks in Cleveland, called Big Met today. I had thought Met may had been a private course originally, like Sleepy Hollow (Thompson) and Manakiki (Ross), two other top public courses in Cleveland. But I confirmed it was public all along.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) -E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Here is a little blurb on Sylvanus Jermain....its at the very end of the article. I've also attached a photo that includes a short bio. He was a very interesting man.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1927/gi271q.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi133c.pdf
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Mike,
To think that some researcher in 2182 will make an astounding "discovery" about the municipal golf courses of the twentieth century and those who designed them from a WEKEYPEEDIA page...
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Mike,
I think Delray Beach GC should be added to your list:
http://www.jcdsportsgroup.com/delray_beach_golf_club/history.htm
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Mike,
Along with Tom's staunch refusal to change the date of opening for Brackenridge Park from 1917 when it didn't open to 1916 when it did, is there any reason that you can think that prevents him from placing Bethpage BLACK on his list, especially as he has the Red & Bluee courses there... since this topic is talking about course prior to 1930 that is... ;D
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However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
Now, now Mike. I'll be glad to add Cobbs Creek to the list if it will make you feel better, the course does belong, but as you know this list was in response to your silly comment above, that's why its not on the list. Are there any other Philly courses that should be included?
By the way IMO this has been a very educational thread, I've personally learned a lot researching it. The quality and depth of public courses was quite impressive in the 1920s and 1930s.
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Steve:
Interesting article on the history of Delray Beach GC. For starters I never knew the original nine was Ross.
But I think there may be a number of interesting back stories that weren't in that article. For instance, that may've been the place where Dick Wilson went after he left the Toomey/Flynn organization and it just may've been where he got his start on his own in architecture after perhaps being the greenkeeper at Delray Beach GC. During the war Wilson did work on military airfields down there.
And then there's the whole back story of Armour and why he was there for those fifteen years or so. During all those years I think he was still the pro at Winged Foot in the summer but something happened down there in Florida with him and Boca Raton GC in the winter. The story was he got fired and just went up the road to Delray to live and to hang out at the Delray Beach GC to teach.
Armour was definitely the magnet for all those good players hanging around Delray Beach GC, particularly the early LPGA gals hanging around Delray and the Delray Beach GC. I know this because my father was part of that group. In those early years he worked for Spalding and part of his job was to take care of the "LPGA Spalding Stable" of tour pros which many of those on that list in the article were part of. But it was Armour and his teaching that was the real magnet.
In those years it also seems Armour never drove a car for some reason and since he lived right down the street from my father, Dad was also one of Armour's drivers to take him to the course and take him home again when the day was done and after which Armour had had something in the neighborhood of twenty gin bucks.
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I've played Delray Beach GC and there is a reason it wasn't on there.
But, I have no qualms if you want to add it to Tom MacWood's Every public course built through the depression list. I'm sure it fits remarkably well.
Delray Beach was originally a nine hole golf course; the second nine was added in the 50s. The list is supposed to be circa 1936...so that is why DB was not considered for my list.
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Mike:
Like most others on here I too have no idea what MacWood's list of public courses is all about or what point he thinks he's making with it but at least I suppose it's comforting to know that he thinks he's learned something by researching it to compile it.
As for your list on Post #102 I would nominate it for one of the classic posts on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. It is totally hilarious. I can just see some future over-arching researchers/analysts a hundred years from now, like MacWood and Moriarty are today, trying to make some big deal out of those theretofore unknown architects Moriarty and MacWood and how they somehow must have been unfairly over-looked in what they did in their time as evidenced by their inclusion on your list on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com in June 2010.
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I added Tam O'Shanter in Canton. I had mistakenly thought it had been a private club originally.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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My mistake, David...thanks for pointing it out. I guess I didn't see that one in going through all the years.
You didn't see the second tournament on the short list (1922-36) that you posted? You were in such a hurry to stretch some irrelevancy beyond all reasonableness (highest qualifying score implies best course???) that you didn't even bother to get your facts right. Typical.
Also typical are your attempts to undermine and ridicule Tom MacWood's list in defense of your asinine "factual" statement about Cobbs. You even have the nerve to call these courses "rudimentary," as if Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Thomas, Bell, Egan, etc. were building rudimentary courses in the 1920s and 30s. There are some very good courses on this list, Mike. It is hardly a catch all. Just because you've played a few listed courses 80 years (and who knows what changes) after the fact, you are by no means an expert regarding the quality of public courses that existed at the time.
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David
I couldn't find anything on Westwood. Is that Montebello Park? I'm adding both Sunset Fields courses; they were both top notch. Originally I'd thought they had been private before going public (like Fox Hills), but I confirmed they began as public courses. The Harding course at Griffith Park was the course I was including. The first 18 at Pasadena was the superior course from all accounts. Bell added 9 holes in 1930, which was referred to as a practice nine, and then some point another nine was added. I'm not sure when or by whom.
"Westwood Public Golf Course" (that was its name) opened in the late 1920's (fall of 1927) but like the Sunset Fields courses which opened around the same time, it is NLE. As you know, economics and demographics took a heavy toll on California golf in the 30's and 40's. Westwood was a privately owned "pay as you go" public course, par 71 (6120 yards) over a rolling site between Pico and Santa Monica Blvd, reportedly just under 200 acres. Its neighbors were Fox Studio to the West, LACC to the North, Hillcrest CC to the South, Rancho Park to the Southwest, and Beverly Hills High School to the East. Today the site is Century City.
Hard to tell how good it was, but it certainly had the makings of a good course -- plenty of rolling land well suited for golf and a quality designer. Behr, of course, was delighted with the course and thought that every hole bubbled over with character. Reportedly, the bunkers were made to look as if they were formed by nature and the greens blended in with the surrounds.
At the time, one could have golfed from Sunset Blvd to just north of what is now the Santa Monica Freeway, golfing from course to course across LACC North, LACC South, Westwood Public, Hillcrest Country Club, Rancho Park, and California Country Club (plus two par three courses.)
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Mike
Do you actually believe Cobbs Creek was the best, most challenging public course built in America between 1916 and 1936? If you do, you should know there are a lot of people outside Philadelphia who think you are full of it...people in Western Pa, Illinois, Florida, Indiana, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Texas, Oregon, Michigan, New York, California and Ohio.
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Because you spend 90% of your time spreading propaganda...do you think we are all idiots outside Philly?
Do you actually believe Cobbs Creek was the best, most challenging public course built in America between 1916 and 1936?
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Mike
Check out this thread and you tell me if you think this is a representative list of the best public courses for that period. I think it is an exceedingly weak effort and I think everyone knows why.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44812.0/
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Mike,
I don't care what you think and I doubt MacWood does, either. But I do care about what others think and know about golf architecture, particularly the history of golf architecture in America, and I'd prefer is that history was accurate and open. So when you and a few of your Philadelphia brethren obfuscate the record and even just make shit up, I care.
Is it really too much to ask that you back up your "factual" claims with actual facts? I guess in Philadelphia it is.
Fact is, in your never ending quest to aggrandize Cobb's reputation, you made an asinine claim about Cobbs with little or no basis. We called you on it and you have been lashing out ever since.
Unlike you and your Cobbs fluff jobs, MacWood actually took the time to provide some interesting and useful information. Of course your response is to ridicule the list, ridicule the courses, pretend you meant something else. You even ridiculed the fact that MacWood took the time to do the research -- research you should have done before you made your idiotic claim.
All proof that you are not really interested in facts, at least not when they conflict with your phacts.
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Mike
Didn't you say that CC was the best, most challenging public course up until the creation of Bethpage? This must be simple misunderstanding. You actually meant to say CC was the best, most challenging public course up until six year before the creation of Bethpage?
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David,
Let me first state that I don't agree with Mike that Cobb's Creek was the best municipal course built before 1930. If there is any course that can lay claim to that I would think that Brackenridge Park (and NOT because its a Tilly) or Harding Park would be the answer.
Having said that, I think that your last comments to Mike are filled with inacuracies and your own set of obfuscations.
You wrote, "Mike, I don't care what you think and I doubt MacWood does, either. But I do care about what others think and know about golf architecture, particularly the history of golf architecture in America, and I'd prefer is that history was accurate and open. So when you and a few of your Philadelphia brethren obfuscate the record and even just make shit up, I care..."
Really? Then why haven't you confronted Tom Macwood for his CONTINUED lack of accuracy when mistakes have been pointed out to him? This is now the 4th time I've pointed out that Brackenridge Park was opened in November of 1916, yet he continues to ignore it and keeps listing it as 1917. He stated that Bethpage Black and Red were never chosen to host the Publick Links championships. That is incorrect and I pointed it out and he justs ignores it. If the two of you believe historical accuracy is so important, a simple, "thanks, let me correct it" would suffice to prove it, yet despite repeated efforts to achieve this accuracy, nothing is done.
"Is it really too much to ask that you back up your "factual" claims with actual facts? I guess in Philadelphia it is..."
We've yet to see a single "fact" given by you as evidence that Mike's OPINION is incorrect. If you think that giving fact's are so important how about providing some rather than simply denigrating Mike and what he has said without any?
"Fact is, in your never ending quest to aggrandize Cobb's reputation, you made an asinine claim about Cobbs with little or no basis. We called you on it and you have been lashing out ever since..."
Once again you are wrong. The FACTS are that Mike has produced numerous contemporaneous newspaper accounts which he believes backs up his opinions. The FACT is that neither you nor Tom Macwood have presented a SINGLE contemporaneous or even modern day account that states that a particular municipal golf course was considered among or even the best of its time... not one. The only thing you have been "lashing out at" is Mike personally which gives a great deal of credence to Mike's statement about that.
"Unlike you and your Cobbs fluff jobs, MacWood actually took the time to provide some interesting and useful information. Of course your response is to ridicule the list, ridicule the courses, pretend you meant something else. You even ridiculed the fact that MacWood took the time to do the research -- research you should have done before you made your idiotic claim..."
Tom did do research and much is interesting. Unfortunately none of it is USEFUL to the discussion if he simply lists courses and nothing else. It is like someone telling a painter that the color he just painted a wall with isn't blue because here is red, yellow, green orange and black. Tom needs to do more than simply give a list before he can state that it is proof of anything in any way. Heck, from what he wrote one can infer that even he doesn't think all these courses were either the better or even the equal of Cobb's, for he has NEVER even stated such. And, once again, if Tom wants his information to be truly "useful" he should correct the blatant mistakes that have been pointed out to him several times and not ignore them.
"All proof that you are not really interested in facts, at least not when they conflict with your phacts."
No, David, it is you who has yet to present a single fact into the discussion and, therefor it is YOU who isn't interested in facts. The most ridiculas part of this discussion, in my opinion, is that the topic is a discussion of Mike's PERSONAL belief and opinion on the subject and not a discussion of any sort of quantifiable "fact" on it.
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Phil,
Is their some reason you are railing against me because you think Tom MacWood maliciously slighted your man Tillie? Do you have so little control of your hard-on for Tillie that you must lash out at any random person when you feel Tillie has been wronged? If not, then why lash out at me?
-- I have no idea whether Brackenridge Park opened 18 holes in 1916 or 1917, but I do know that both dates are long before 1936. If it is that important to you, why don't you start a thread and produce some evidence that the 18 hole course opened when you say it did? Because right now all you are doing is screaming that Tom MacWood is wrong and you are right, without offering a factual basis. Who do you think you are, Mike Cirba?
As for which courses at Bethpage hosted the Publinks, I didn't say anything and I don't really care.
But since you mentioned it, you and Mike misrepresented what MacWood wrote. He wrote that the Black hasn't hosted a Publinks. It hasn't. Whether Black was chosen in 1936 or not, it didn't host. But it is no surprise that you try to have your cake and eat it too, counting three Tillie courses where one will do.
As for the Red, I guess you can call a course that isn't even used for the final rounds a "host" if you want to. By that logic I guess we should think of Merion West as a Major Championship course.
As for the rest, you have missed the point. I am not trying to dispute the merits of Mike's claim or argue for alternatives. Unlike you, I have no horse in this race. Mike's claim is asinine on its face and needs no refutation except to point out the depth and breadth of quality public courses before 1936. Tom's list works just fine for this purpose.
- Mike's claim was also asinine because he presented it as "fact". Only homers like you and Mike would claim to be able to definitively tell us which public course was best before 1936. (By the way, big surprise you think a Tillie course was the best.)
- It was also asinine because, even taking it as opinion, he had no real basis for his opinion (other than his desire to fluff Cobbs.)
- It was also asinine because those few articles he eventually came up with do not come close to supporting his outlandish claim.
- But the main reason it was an asinine claim is that it is yet another example of Mike trying to build up something Philadelphia by tearing everything else down. He'll fluff Cobbs even if it means he has to throw every other public course in the nation under the bus.
Obviously, Phil, you are here to defend Tillie's honor. But you've no business coming after me for whatever perceived slights you suffer under. Go defend Tillie's honor somewhere else. It is homers like you and Mike that make this place so unproductive for historical research.
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David,
Congratulations Mike. Finally a post without any blatant exaggerations or inaccuracies.
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David,
I see that you are back to not letting an inconvenient truth get in the way of a vitriolic obfuscation...
YOU stated, "Phil, Is their some reason you are railing against me because you think Tom MacWood maliciously slighted your man Tillie? Do you have so little control of your hard-on for Tillie that you must lash out at any random person when you feel Tillie has been wronged? If not, then why lash out at me?"
In what school were you taught that when truth and facts are not on your side that the best response is a vulgar and stupid retort? I am NOT "railing against YOU because I think Tom MacWood maliciously slighted [my] man Tillie." First of all, I never said he slighted Tilly (proper way to spell it not that you care to learn anything). Tom DID give an incorrect date for the course opening, something that he seems to think important as he assigned dates to everyone on his. I pointed it out for the simple reason of historical accuracy and nothing else.
As for "lashing out" at you. I feel that what I wrote was FAR MILDER than the puerile nonsense that you keep heaping on Mike without ANY SUPPORTING FACTS. You keep "Lashing Out" at Mike and accusing him of writing opinions without presenting any facts and when it is pointed out to you that he has, you respond by calling his usage of these contemporaneous accounts as "ASININE" yet you offer not a SINGLE FACT or CONTEMPORANEOUS ACCOUNT or ARTICLE yourself to contradict his opinion or support your own. Coming from one who has treated Mike as poorly as you have in these threads is the height of hypocrisy. After all, aren't you the one who wrote Mike, " Is it really too much to ask that you back up your "factual" claims with actual facts?"
You went on, "I have no idea whether Brackenridge Park opened 18 holes in 1916 or 1917, but I do know that both dates are long before 1936. If it is that important to you, why don't you start a thread and produce some evidence that the 18 hole course opened when you say it did? Because right now all you are doing is screaming that Tom MacWood is wrong and you are right, without offering a factual basis. Who do you think you are, Mike Cirba?"
Sorry David, but I am NOT screaming, and here again you show a complete lack of discernment. I purposefully chose not o cite the proof of date. I wanted Tom to ask for it. My response to him then would have been just as it is to you now. That he provided a list of courses and dates and presented them as FACTS without providing any documentation for it. I'm sorry, but neither Tom nor yourself can demand that Mike offer facts as proof and then present UNSUPPORTED FACTS of their own as proof against. I then would have shown the following/ It is from the November 23, 1916 issue of the San Antonio Light newspaper and the article is inviting the public to come and play the newly finished Brackenridge Park golf course.
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/1916Brack.jpg)
David, there is a point where some have EARNED the right to present facts without having to provide the necessary "corroboration." You seem quite willing to allow yourself and Tom this privilege and not do the same for others.
You ranted on, "As for which courses at Bethpage hosted the Publinks, I didn't say anything and I don't really care. But since you mentioned it, you and Mike misrepresented what MacWood wrote. He wrote that the Black hasn't hosted a Publinks. It hasn't. Whether Black was chosen in 1936 or not, it didn't host. But it is no surprise that you try to have your cake and eat it too, counting three Tillie courses where one will do..."
Once again, it is YOU who is deliberately misrepresenting not only what I wrote, but what TOM MACWOOD wrote as well.
In post #92 Tom wrote, " Yes and no. I think all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best, for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red, Memorial Park, Harding Park or Starmount Forest never hosted the event."
Tom clearly wrote all the courses chosen were good and differentiates them from those that he claimed "never hosted the event." He included both Bethpage Black and Red.
In my response in post #97 I stated, "You are wrong in this. Although the Black course didn't host the Publinks [in complete agreement with Tom's statement] it was CHOSEN to be the host course. Because of construction delays one of the other courses took its place. That would be the RED course. The BLUE course was ALWAYS part of the TWO courses needed to host the event... Bethpage RED hosted the event [an INCORRECT statement which I pointed out] along with the BLUE course."
Please point out how I MISREPRESENTED what Tom wrote? He stated the Black never hosted the event. I stated the Black never hosted the event and then added that it was chosen to do so. The reason for doing that was because it lays the foundation for thy the RED course was chosen to replace it. Tom CLEARLY stated that the Red course didn't host the event. I CLEARLY disagreed with it and pointed out that it did. Now I have EARNED the right of respect to NOT have to post any number of newspaper articles recounting that event as proof that my statement is a factual one. If that is not good enough I will be glad to post one, but ONLY if you ask so politely.
You then stated a TRULY ASININE statement (as you felt so free to use that throughout the rest of your comments in this post I feel it certainly can't hurt your feelings any), "As for the Red, I guess you can call a course that isn't even used for the final rounds a "host" if you want to. By that logic I guess we should think of Merion West as a Major Championship course."
By your twisted logic then, I guess the only rounds of golf played during the AT&T pro-am are those played at Pebble Beach since the other courses aren't used for the final round. By the way, I would love to hear your explanation as to WHY two courses were needed for the Public Links Championship at Bethpage in 1936. I am quite certain that you can't answer it.
You ranted on, "As for the rest, you have missed the point. I am not trying to dispute the merits of Mike's claim or argue for alternatives. Unlike you, I have no horse in this race. Mike's claim is asinine on its face and needs no refutation except to point out the depth and breadth of quality public courses before 1936. Tom's list works just fine for this purpose.
- Mike's claim was also asinine because he presented it as "fact". Only homers like you and Mike would claim to be able to definitively tell us which public course was best before 1936. (By the way, big surprise you think a Tillie course was the best.)
- It was also asinine because, even taking it as opinion, he had no real basis for his opinion (other than his desire to fluff Cobbs.)
- It was also asinine because those few articles he eventually came up with do not come close to supporting his outlandish claim.
- But the main reason it was an asinine claim is that it is yet another example of Mike trying to build up something Philadelphia by tearing everything else down. He'll fluff Cobbs even if it means he has to throw every other public course in the nation under the bus."
The only thing ASININE your reasoning. It matters not "to point out the depth and breadth of quality public courses before 1936" because if there is a course that is clearly "the best" those numbers prove nothing against it being so. It is Mike's OPINION that Cobb's was the best municipal course built before Bethpage. He has backed up his claim with contemporaneous articles that he feels bolsters this claim. His doing so is NOT a case of throwing "every other public course in the nation under the bus.." but rather the logical conclusion of his OPINION is that all other municipal courses did not measure up against Cobb's Creek at that time.
How about instead of name-calling that you try some FACT presenting of your own. My original post stated exactly what I am going to do so once again. YOU HAVE NOT POSTED A SINGLE PIECE OF FACTUAL EVIDENCE. NEWSPAPER OR MAGAZINE ACCOUNT OR ANYTHING CONTEMPORANEOUS TO ANY OTHER COURSE THAT CONTRADICT'S MIKE'S OPINION. It's time that you did.
You close out with more nonsense, "Obviously, Phil, you are here to defend Tillie's honor. But you've no business coming after me for whatever perceived slights you suffer under. Go defend Tillie's honor somewhere else. It is homers like you and Mike that make this place so unproductive for historical research."
David, I posted what I did not for the sake of Tilly's honor, but for MIKE'S HONOR. He hasn't deserved one bit of the crap you've posted. Of course, that is simply my OPINION...
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Phil, I have obviously touched a nerve. Good.
I stand by everything I wrote above. Good Luck in all things Tillie.
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By the way, Phil, the article you posted says nothing about the course opening or having recently been completed. It merely says that invitations would be prepared and guests would be invited. It doesn't say when. I hope they hurried, 1917 wasn't far away.
I have no idea when it opened, and i don't care. But I do know that your reading comprehension appears to be highly subjective and dependent upon what you are trying to prove.
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David,
Nice try...
From the JANUARY 13, 1916 edition of the San Antonio Light:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/1916BBrack.jpg)
The front nine was open for play and enjoyed by local golfers from the Spring onward. The back nine was finished for the Fall which is why the article states, "As soon as the course is re-rolled the first nine holes will be thrown open to the public. It is not planned to complete the remaining nine holes for use this Spring..."
It is YOU who can't read. The November article spoke about "Invitations" being placed in hotel lobbies as a marketing tool for visitors, NOT as some sort of opening day ceremonial announcement.
By the way, there are MANY more articles about the design, building and play at the course if you need them...
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I added Beaver Tail in Rhode Island and Belvedere in Michigan, both daily fee courses. I removed Hyde Park and Bobby Jones from Florida after finding some mediocre contemporaneous reports.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Tom,
I wasn't offended, just disappointed that you ignored the facts when presented. It also wasn't a terrible transgression, just a mistake very slowly corrected...
Thank you for doing so.
The one question I did have for you is why your list doesn't include Bethpage Black? Is it because Mike admits that The Black was the best municipal course designed? Did you choose 1935 as your limit because the Black opened in 1936? Sincere questions.
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However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
Mike
Did you actually mean to say Cobbs was the best, most challenging public golf course up until 1930? Perhaps you should have left Bethpage out of your statement....I think that is where the confusion came in.
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Mike
You didn't mention anything about the Depression in your statement (or in that post)...perhaps that is another reason for the confusion. Why don't you edit the post to reflect what you really meant to say.
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I figured you woudn't have a viable alternative as a public golf course from that era that you'd want to nominate. ::)
Kyle,
If someone (David included) wants to nominate other public courses from that era for hole-by-hole matchplay-discussion I'd be happy to participate.
Let us make sure we are all on the same (well-troden) road here:
1. Mike Cirba makes an outrageous pronouncement as if it were a self-evident truth, even calling it a fact.
2. Mike Cirba offers Zero analysis attempting to back up is unsupported pronouncement.
3. Ignorantly assuming that what he says is true until proven false, Mike Cirba demands that burden fall on others to prove him wrong.
4. When others rephuse to phollow along with his pharce, Mike Cirba takes this as phurther evidence that his bald proclamation was true!
What a Phucking joke!
__________________________
Mike Malone,
To clarify, Mike Cirba claimed that Cobbs Creek was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country prior to 1936.
Have you played all the best public courses built in the US before 1936? To your knowledge, has Mike? Have you studied all the excellent public courses that existed then but are now NLE or have been seriously compromised?
While I understand your desire to jump in and try to save your pal, wouldn't it ultimately be better for the website if people called this joker out on his constant asinine puffery?
_______________________________________________
Kyle,
I appreciate your attempts to turn this conversation into something positive, but Mike Cirba has no interest in actually discussing the top pre-1936 public courses in the country, not unless he can easily be twisted into something that fits his agenda.
I'd be very interested in an intelligent conversation of the early quality public designs, but Mike Cirba has no place in that conversation!
Mike
Yes you did, on another thread, and after David wrote this quote above. This would have been a perfect time for you to address the confusion, but you didn't. In fact you never mentioned the Depression at all on this thread. The creation of the other thread was obviously in reaction to David's post, and by that time you realized how ridiculous your claim was.
Why don't you edit your previous post to reflect what you really meant.
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...until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage...
Mike
I read until the creation of Bethpage in 1936, and so did everyone else. Edit your post.
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This thread looks like a continuation under another title and subject of those endlessly argumentative Merion threads. It also looks like the reason why is MacWood is participating and particularly Moriarty is back with his never ending gratuituously argumentative approach and tone that includes calling others opinions 'ignorant,' 'assinine' and 'phucking jokes.' And that is pretty ironic coming from the person who wrote and continued to defend on here a piece of historical and fact-jaded garbage that the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" is----and has been deemed by just about all who actually read it and tried to consider its fallacious premises, distorted logic and apparent conclusions.
And this same guy actually has the hubris and hutzpah to say the following on here!?
"But I do care about what others think and know about golf architecture, particularly the history of golf architecture in America, and I'd prefer is that history was accurate and open. So when you and a few of your Philadelphia brethren obfuscate the record and even just make shit up, I care."
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Mike Cirba:
Why don't you just go ahead and edit your post if for no other reason than to make the little penny-ante endless arguer, MacWood, content?
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Mike Cirba:
Why don't you just go ahead and edit your post if for no other reason than to make thr little penny-ante endless arguer, MacWood, content?
TEP
Thank you for taking the high ground...you've always shown great discipline in avoiding name calling.
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Tom MacWood:
Whenever you participate on these kinds of threads on here, inherently there basically is no high ground. You pretty much drag all these kinds of threads down to the low ground, particularly any of them to do with Philadelphia. And it always seems to be the same kind of thing as you clearly try to prove just about anyone wrong even about some miniscule point and all apparently to try to make yourself look like some kind of expert on somethiing.
And then occassionally your little ultra argumentative PHOUL-mouthed cohort Moriarty joins in with you and pretty much drags them into the gutter. I don't believe there has been more that a few threads on here that Moriarty has been part of that this has NOT happened. You claim you are some kind of expert researcher, don't you? Well, why don't you go research THAT and I think even you will see what the PHACTS are! ;)
Basically, you two guys were called into question for your really poor research analysis years ago on a couple of subjects that involved Philadelphia architecture and courses, namely Pine Valley and Merion East. You two were proven flat wrong on your assumptions and conclusions, you know it as does everyone else and I suppose you two just never got over it and your ridiculous vendetta just carries on with your usual petty argumentative ways.
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"Tom Paul,
Do you really think my editing of my original post will make a difference?"
Mike:
I really don't know. However, I do think it is completely fruitless to ever try to discuss something that remotely involves Philadelphia (or the so-called "amateur/sportsmen" architects from this town) with MacWood and particularly Moriarty.
I'm certain that MacWood has an on-going agenda on that; and one that I have mentioned a number of times might be potentially most interesting if he could ever figure out how to admit to it. Moriarty, on the other hand, I considered to be a total and complete waste of time on here.
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Merion again? You two should give the Merion crap a rest. Either that, or come up with an IMO, book, essay or other coherent attempt at refutation. Because, as it is and despite your baseless potshots, my IMO is the best and most accurate description of the creation of the East Course out there.
How's that long promised "point by point counterpoint" coming along, anyways? Right there on the to-do shelf next to the Flynn Bible?
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Phil, I still don't care when the course opened. But thanks for posting the two articles, neither of which establishes the fact you claim. If you want to discus it further, start another thread.
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I added Beaver Tail in Rhode Island and Belvedere in Michigan, both daily fee courses. I removed Hyde Park and Bobby Jones from Florida after finding some mediocre contemporaneous reports.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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"....Either that, or come up with an IMO, book, essay or other coherent attempt at refutation. Because, as it is and despite your baseless potshots, my IMO is the best and most accurate description of the creation of the East Course out there."
Shortly after your essay was put on this website there was some notion to doing a counterpoint essay to it and a refutation but that is no longer necessary in our opinions. To all those that matter to us including the club and others on here we feel the follow-up threads on here were refutation enough for this website and the essay itself for those from the club and such who do not participate on this website was its own refutation. Their opinion of it varied from an attempt at clever but fairly transparent fallacious reasoning to a total joke.
I think I can count on one hand the people who have any passing interest left in your essay and what it attempted to explain or believe it contains any historic accuracy or interest. You did discover on your own one thing, however, which of course was interesting as much for curiosity as anything else, and which Merion and its archives have noted----eg that Wilson did go abroad in 1912 and probably not in 1910.
Unfortunately the way you tried to use that relatively minor discovery and what it meant in the broader scheme of things and to try to extrapolate it as some cornerstone point with your distorted logic into your fallacious assumptions and premises and your conclusions in the essay was completely seen through and recognized by all the people whose opinions on Merion East's architectural history matter to us.
There doesn't need to be a counterpoint IMO essay on here to your "The Missing Faces of Merion." It's already been effectively refuted, and there is no one I'm aware of who thinks your admission on that is necessary at this point.
And, to go back to this particular thread, your characterizations on your posts on this thread of others' opinions on here as assinine, ignorant and 'PHUCKING Jokes' is just more in a long laundry list of reasons why you are a total waste of time participant on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and its DG.
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Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah . . .
Meanwhile, my essay stands.
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"Meanwhile, my essay stands."
That is no problem at all. If someone actually believes that essay and actually says so then that in and of itself would pretty much speak to what they lack as competent and interested parties in the golf architectural history of a very important course. And that just might be quite the useful barometer and indicator, come to think of it.
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Mike,
If you meant something else, then my post shouldn't make sense....
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Did you all get that? If you disagree with TEPaul on this issue you must be stupid, and he will so judge you and treat you accordingly.
Imagine, TEPaul, all you've written on the subject, all the time you've spent, and the essay has never been seriously challenged in any remotely coherent format? Imagine the time you have wasted! Oh well. I guess you probably didn't have anything better to do, anyway.
If my essay is so bad, it shouldn't be a big problem it refute it. You could have done so ten times over in a fraction of the time you have spent posturing against me. But you guys obviosly can't touch it. Which is why your and Wayne's many promises to refute it in the form of and IMO, Essay, book chapter, etc. have gone unfulfilled.
Isn't it about time you guys put up, or shut up?
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I didn't say if someone disagrees with me on this issue they must be stupid-----I said:
"If someone actually believes that essay and actually says so then that in and of itself would pretty much speak to what they lack as competent and interested parties in the golf architectural history of a very important course. And that just might be quite the useful barometer and indicator, come to think of it.
There are certainly plenty of people out there who aren't stupid at all who don't know much of anything about the architectural history of Merion East. In that case they may tend to believe almost anything that is put out there that is purported to be authoritative. You just said on here that you think your essay is the best and most accurate description of the creation of Merion East out there.
That right there is complete garbage. Your essay completely pales in comparison to Wayne Morrison's 150 page detailed description of the entire creation and design evolution report of Merion East. And furthermore your essay is essentially fallacious reasoning and a real distortion of facts and documentary material held by and within the club.
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Ah yes, the often mentioned but never revealed 150 page Super Secret Morrison Merion Manifesto. Sorry Tom, but I am afraid hidden and unvetted vanity pieces just don't cut it.
Besides, isn't that part of the long-promised-but-never-to-be-produced 47 million page (without graphics) Flynn Bible, King Wayne Version? That has about as much chance of seeing the light of day as I do of becoming a Member at Merion. I wonder which will have been longer in the end, the amount of time it takes you two to come up anything resembling a coherent book, or Flynn's entire design career?
As for the rest, your endless yammering doesn't change that my paper has yet to be seriously challenged in any sort of coherent or cohesive manner by you, Wayne, or anyone else. Too bad, I was hoping that you supposed Merion experts could teach me something. I guess not.
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Moriarty:
To start with the last first, I doubt anyone who has anything to do with Merion or who knows about the architectural history of Merion has any interest at all in teaching you anything about Merion or anything else. If learning about the architectural history of Merion or Merion East had ever actually been your intention you most certainly went about that endeavor in an assbackwards, unintelligent and confrontational way from the start.
But that just seems to be your constant and continuous MO on here and not just with Merion but pretty much every other subject you participate in on here. No wonder you and MacWood seems cohorts on here; apparently you two think you can make a name for yourself by just proving others wrong and about anything, no matter how trivial. It seems pretty clear that most all involved with this website and otherwise recognize that at this point.
Again, as to why no one needs to refute or counterpoint your fallacious essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion" at this point, try reading my post #149 again. It's not necessary. Your essay is transparently illogicial and fallacious and to all that really matter with the accurate architectural history of Merion East your essay refutes itself with those from Merion and who know Merion and its history and it was completely refuted on the long running threads on here.
As for the Flynn book or Wayne's now 269 page creation and architectural evolution chapter on Merion East, I'm quite sure he and Merion would be more than willing to work with anyone actually interested in that history and learning about all the details of it. Too bad for you that you never fit that description.
But if making some kind of significant contribution to GCA research and history has been your interest all along perhaps not all is lost for you. I believe the way you (and to a lesser degree your cohort MacWood) have gone about things on here has definitely helped not just Merion but a number of other significant clubs with what kind of so-called GCA researcher/analyst or so-called historian not to deal with or take seriously in the future. I guess that's at least something of a GCA contribution, huh, Moriarty!? ???
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Are you still yapping? What a waste of good wine.
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I doubt anyone would expect a more intelligent response from you than that, at this point. I know I don't.
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I'm going to play Merion this fall. ;)
And when I get out there I'm going to lay my hands on the ninth green and channel the ghost of all the guys who deserve attribution of what is there. I'll let you all know what I discover.
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I'm going to play Merion this fall. ;)
And when I get out there I'm going to lay my hands on the ninth green and channel the ghost of all the guys who deserve attribution of what is there. I'll let you all know what I discover.
That ought to be about as accurate as the tale these jokers are telling.
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It's a great golf course, Bradley, but it's still just a golf course, not the Oracle of Delphi. ;) However, I, for one, will be most interested in your take on it knowing you've never seen it before. What we need on here, in my opinion, is a lot more particpants and contributors like you who really do know something about golf course architecture and its history and definitely less like David Moriarty who don't know much despite their protestations to the contrary! I don't have much doubt that you could suss more out about Merion East in one trip around it than Moriarty ever could in a lifetime.
Moriarty's contenton that C.B. Macdonald was the router or designer or even the 'driving force' ::) behind Merion East is the biggest jot of horsehit any self proclaimed "interested learning party" has ever tried to foist on a significant golf course.
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I'm going to play Merion this fall. ;)
And when I get out there I'm going to lay my hands on the ninth green and channel the ghost of all the guys who deserve attribution of what is there. I'll let you all know what I discover.
That ought to be about as accurate as the tale these jokers are telling.
David, In your essay you should have just come right and accused Hugh Wilson of being a joker.
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I'm going to play Merion this fall. ;)
And when I get out there I'm going to lay my hands on the ninth green and channel the ghost of all the guys who deserve attribution of what is there. I'll let you all know what I discover.
That ought to be about as accurate as the tale these jokers are telling.
David, In your essay you should have just come right and accused Hugh Wilson of being a joker.
Now why the hell would I say that? I certainly don't believe it. Unlike the Philly boys I don't need to tear anyone down to try and make someone else look good.
Besides, I am the only one who respected Hugh Wilson enough to take him at his word, and the only one who actually figured out what he was talking about.
All this time and you still have no concept of what the essay actually is about, yet you still are more than willing to draw strong conclusions. Why am I not surprised?
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I'm going to play Merion this fall. ;)
And when I get out there I'm going to lay my hands on the ninth green and channel the ghost of all the guys who deserve attribution of what is there. I'll let you all know what I discover.
Its good to see your sucking up is finally paying dividends. Your post asking everyone if it was worth reading on after reading half of David's essay is still the single most ignorant post I've seen on GCA....and that is saying something.
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I've added Baederwood. I think a case could be made that Baederwood was the top public course in Philadelphia in the late 20s and 30s.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Baederwood (1928) - CH.Alison
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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"I've added Baederwood. I think a case could be made that Baederwood was the top public course in Philadelphia in the late 20s and 30s."
Tom, instead of simply implying it, make the case.
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"David, In your essay you should have just come right and accused Hugh Wilson of being a joker."
"Now why the hell would I say that? I certainly don't believe it. Unlike the Philly boys I don't need to tear anyone down to try and make someone else look good.
Besides, I am the only one who respected Hugh Wilson enough to take him at his word, and the only one who actually figured out what he was talking about."
It's too bad the same can't be said for what you wrote and why about the thngs all the others said (Francis, Lloyd, Griscom, Toulmin, Alan Wilson, Sayers et al) about Wilson who worked with him on the creation of Merion East and watched him do it for their benefit.
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Phil-the-Author
Read Daniel Wexler's profile in Lost Links. I would also suggest you check out the historic aerials of the two courses in the Hagley Archive.
Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement. I believe it was his last American design. Both courses do a good job of utilizing a stream - at Baederwood it comes into play on 15 of the 18 holes. But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme.
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"But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme."
That remark shows me MacWood's fundamental misundertanding of golf architecture and specifically the roll of bunkering in it. That remark reminds me of his interpretation and opinion of the restoration of Aronimink-----eg more bunkering equates to better architecture.
One of the true beauties of CC (perhaps akin to ANGC) is the designers went low on bunkering because the beautiful rolling topography didn't need it and being a municipal course it would've unrealistically driven up the cost.
And again, it also helps if a researcher/analyst/historian/critic actually sees a golf course before offering comments about its quality----an aspect Tom MacWood has not yet figured out as he offers his "IMO" ;) thoughts from his Ivory Tower in Ohio on golf courses he has never even seen! Some feel one must play a course before offering an opinion on its architecture. Perhaps, but at least seeing the course is definitely a must before offering any cogent opinions on it and its architecture. This is a fundamental MacWood has apparently not yet figured out. What does that say about him and his "INOs?" ;)
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Tom,
Mike has been criticized by some for not providing "facts" to back up his claim. I disagree with this assertion because he has provided numerous contemporaneous articles praising Cobb's Creek. I respect anyone whose opinion differs either on what the articles state or the conclusions drawn from them. But if Mike needs to present "facts" because he stated an opinion, than those who make similar statements of SPECIFIC opinions, e.g.- yours with Baederwood, must be held to the same standard.
This includes that they be CONTEMPORANEOUS "facts" and/or articles as that has also been demanded of him. With that in mind, even Daniel will admit that as old as he may feel at times, he wasn't around way back when. What he has written is NOT acceptable as a contemporaneous fact by the standards that Mike's critics have demanded of him.
So, in my opinion, if you want your contention that Baederwood was superior to Cobb's Creek up until the Depression, for that is the timeframe that Mike delineated in his opinion, than YOU need to provide those contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof. And, by the way, since the 6 aerial photographs of Baederwood in the Hagley collection were taken between July and October of 1939, they are too far past the timeframe mike is talking about to serve as proof... in my opinion.
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Phil:
Your Post #170 is a good one and an important one----eg that you call on MacWood to provide "facts" to support his claims (or "INOs" ;) ) if he is going to ask Cirba to do the same.
However, I don't see that it has ever been MacWood who has ever called on anyone on here to provide "facts" to support what they say. It is Moriarty who has been doing that, not MacWood. Of course Moriarty has provided no "facts" or "PHACTS" at all or whatever else he calls them on here while calling on others to provide them or else be considered "assinine," "ignorant," or "PHUCKING jokers."
Moriarty has apparently always viewed this website and DG as something akin to a court of law and not an opinion entity for discussion purposes. He provides no facts himself while always calling on others to provide facts. That at least is misguided and at most is just hypocrisy.
The truth is with Moriarty his MO is to just throw some undocumented bullshit opinions, assumptions, premises and conclusions of his own on the wall and when others refute them and criticize him for them he responds by demanding from others that they must provide him with facts to refute the horsehit he produces. I guess he does this as some sneaky and clever way of trying to get documentary and material information from others he was too lazy or to ineffective to try to get himself first.
That kind of back-handed, back-door and hypocrtical research philosophy and MO is never going to fly on here or with any golf club either and either his he with them! People like particularly Moriarty but also MacWood really only serve to give other serious minded and dedicated researchers, analysts, historians, writers, particularly with specific clubs something of a bad reputation with some clubs who have not yet had the opportunity or experience of working with really good historians.
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Hundred if not thousands of tantrums and malevolent attacks on me and the idea of my IMO, yet still no attempt at a coherent substantive refutation.
It shouldn't take a genius to figure out why this is.
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Baederwood was Huntingdon Valley Country Club's original course...
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Tom,
Mike has been criticized by some for not providing "facts" to back up his claim. I disagree with this assertion because he has provided numerous contemporaneous articles praising Cobb's Creek. I respect anyone whose opinion differs either on what the articles state or the conclusions drawn from them. But if Mike needs to present "facts" because he stated an opinion, than those who make similar statements of SPECIFIC opinions, e.g.- yours with Baederwood, must be held to the same standard.
This includes that they be CONTEMPORANEOUS "facts" and/or articles as that has also been demanded of him. With that in mind, even Daniel will admit that as old as he may feel at times, he wasn't around way back when. What he has written is NOT acceptable as a contemporaneous fact by the standards that Mike's critics have demanded of him.
So, in my opinion, if you want your contention that Baederwood was superior to Cobb's Creek up until the Depression, for that is the timeframe that Mike delineated in his opinion, than YOU need to provide those contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof. And, by the way, since the 6 aerial photographs of Baederwood in the Hagley collection were taken between July and October of 1939, they are too far past the timeframe mike is talking about to serve as proof... in my opinion.
Phil
How do you rationalize your statement the other day that Bethpage-Blue was superior to Bethpage-Red?
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Phil:
Your Post #170 is a good one and an important one----eg that you call on MacWood to provide "facts" to support his claims (or "INOs" ;) ) if he is going to ask Cirba to do the same.
However, I don't see that it has ever been MacWood who has ever called on anyone on here to provide "facts" to support what they say. It is Moriarty who has been doing that, not MacWood. Of course Moriarty has provided no "facts" or "PHACTS" at all or whatever else he calls them on here while calling on others to provide them or else be considered "assinine," "ignorant," or "PHUCKING jokers."
Moriarty has apparently always viewed this website and DG as something akin to a court of law and not an opinion entity for discussion purposes. He provides no facts himself while always calling on others to provide facts. That at least is misguided and at most is just hypocrisy.
The truth is with Moriarty his MO is to just throw some undocumented bullshit opinions, assumptions, premises and conclusions of his own on the wall and when others refute them and criticize him for them he responds by demanding from others that they must provide him with facts to refute the horsehit he produces. I guess he does this as some sneaky and clever way of trying to get documentary and material information from others he was too lazy or to ineffective to try to get himself first.
That kind of back-handed, back-door and hypocrtical research philosophy and MO is never going to fly on here or with any golf club either and either his he with them! People like particularly Moriarty but also MacWood really only serve to give other serious minded and dedicated researchers, analysts, historians, writers, particularly with specific clubs something of a bad reputation with some clubs who have not yet had the opportunity or experience of working with really good historians.
TEP
I'm so glad you have lent your expertise to this thread. Sharing your knowledge of the great public course designs of that era has been a tremendous benefit to everyone following this thread. I don't know how you do it, but you always add great substance to these threads.
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Tom MacWood:
You're right, I have no expertise on public courses and as such I probably shouldn't participate on this thread or the others on here like it. The only reason I do is it just disturbs me the way you and particularly Moriarty try to turn any thread on here by Mike Cirba or with Mike Cirba on it on public golf courses into just another opportunity to take pot shots at him and Philadelphia and apparently for his interest and promotion of Cobbs Creek even if he does it by implication.
If one put together the grand total of what you and Moriarty have actually contributed to the subject and field of golf course architecture in your combined lives it would pale in comparison and by a factor of at least ten to the effort and time over the last few years he has put into the hopeful restoration of Cobbs Creek which is now looking more like it may eventually and potentially enure to the benefit of many golfers.
I've never had much connection to public or municipal golf courses but Mike Cirba sure has throughout his life. It never really occured to me previously what the vast difference is between doing what he has for a municipal facility compared to someone who may do the same thing with a private golf course. The latter inherently only enures to the benefit of a limited group, perhaps as much as a few hundred (a membership), while what he's done and is continuing to do is more comparable to a very fine civic responsibility. Again, I'm no expert at all on public or municipal golf courses but the only man I can think of who has arguably done more in that vein recently is San Antonio's Reed Myers; a man I doubt you or Moriarty are even aware of.
In the meantime what have you two done for golf or golf course architecture on here or elsewhere in the last ten years but sit by your computers and pontificate in some attempt to minimize the opinions and deeds of others? And for what reason? At this point, it seems pretty clear for no reason other than to assuage your own insecurities. The only beneficial thing I would say about you, Tom MacWood, is you're not quite as egregious as Moriarty is.
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Imagine, being accused by none other than TEPaul of doing nothing but "sitting at our computers and pontificating." TEPaul! The man has deleted more posts than any of us could ever hope to write. Let's see Tom, you are approaching 40,000 posts, aren't you? And that doesn't even include the thousands you deleted out of embarrassment about your prolific pontification, or the hundreds you deleted to cover your tracks on you obnoxious drunken rants. Ah, but those were the good old days when you could still cover your tracks by deleting your posts once you sobered up.
So somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 posts-- a library worth of words-- yet you still haven't found the time to come up with a coherent substantive critique of my IMO? Too busy, I guess?
As for Mike's efforts at Cobbs, I wish him luck. I like Cobbs. It was a very good early public course, and I hope someday they manage to find the money and the right guys to restore it properly. I don't think the hysterical partisanship or the heavy-handed fluff jobs are necessary or productive, but I guess they just do things differently in Philadelphia.
I won't even get into the matter of you lecturing on public golf. That is funny enough on its face.
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Moriarty:
40,000 of my posts on this website aside, what have you ever done with or for golf or golf architecture on the ground for actual golf clubs and courses compared to me or to Mike Cirba? And what has MacWood ever done in that vein and in that comparison?
And what have you ever written on golf architecture other than that pathetic distorted essay on here entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion?" ;) There are a ton of people who still can't figure out how in the world Ran Morrissett let a piece of garbage like that get on his website.
That seems to be the extent of your contribution to golf and golf architecture, other than your follow-up on all those argumentative so-called Merion threads where you tried to defend yourself and your bullshit essay by playing the part of your argumentative semi-failed lawyer MO and all the rest of your "Oh Woe is Me, why is everyone attacking and insulting me and sullying my reputation?" ::)
Compared to us you two haven't done anything and after your constant and continous insulting shennanigans on here you will probably never have the opportunity.
But all is not lost for you two, as it now looks like you have shown golf clubs all over the world via this Internet website how not to deal with self-promoting researcher/analysts likw you two who don't even have the commonsense or manners to contact clubs first before making them the objects and subjects of your misguided interest.
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"As for Mike's efforts at Cobbs, I wish him luck."
Yeah, right, Moriarty! From your posts on this thread it really sounds like you wish him luck. Shall I pull them all up and quote them or would you prefer to just delete them? Are your descriptions like "asinine," "ignorant," and "PHUCKING joker" or 'this is the 932 time he is trying to promote Cobbs Creek' your idea of how to wish someone luck on a municipal golf course architectural restoration effort?? ::)
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"As for Mike's efforts at Cobbs, I wish him luck."
Yeah, right, Moriarty! From your posts on this thread it really sounds like you wish him luck. Shall I pull them all up and quote them or would you prefer to just delete them. Are descriptions like "asinine," "ignorant," and "PHUCKING joker" or 'this is the 932 time he is trying to promote Cobbs Creek' your idea of how to wish someone luck on an architectural restoration effort?? ::)
Did I really say 932? I probably underestimated.
I like and respect Cobbs. I'd like to see it properly restored. It has nothing to do with my opinion of Mike.
Not surprisingly, you seem to be confused between an honest historical assessment and overzealous sycophantic advocacy. I think being honest about Cobbs would be the best approach. Mike apparently thinks over-the-top cheerleading, exaggerating, legend-building, obfuscation, and tearing others down is the best approach. Must be a Philly thing.
If you want to discuss anything further with me, I suggest you do it in the form of an IMO. Perhaps one of the many you promised but never delivered.
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"Quote from: Bradley Anderson on Yesterday at 09:26:12 PM
I'm going to play Merion this fall.
And when I get out there I'm going to lay my hands on the ninth green and channel the ghost of all the guys who deserve attribution of what is there. I'll let you all know what I discover."
Tom MacWood responded:
"Its good to see your sucking up is finally paying dividends. Your post asking everyone if it was worth reading on after reading half of David's essay is still the single most ignorant post I've seen on GCA....and that is saying something."
Tom MacWood:
In my opinon, and hopefully in the opinions of most on here (hopefully vocalized) you own Brad Anderson a sincere apology for a cheap-shot crack like that.
Hopefully through me and Merion member and historian, Wayne Morrison, Bradley will come to Merion in the fall for himself and a group of his Green Committee for his club. This kind of inter-club education and collaboration is basically always welcomed and encouraged!
What have you done in that vein other than to send a bunch of misguided emails to the club "CCing" the wrong people as well as trying to disassociate yourself from the essayist of that bullshit essay on here "The Missing Faces of Merion?"
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"Not surprisingly, you seem to be confused between an honest historical assessment and overzealous sycophantic advocacy. I think being honest about Cobbs would be the best approach. Mike apparently thinks over-the-top cheerleading, exaggerating, legend-building, obfuscation, and tearing others down is the best approach. Must be a Philly thing.
If you want to discuss anything further with me, I suggest you do it in the form of an IMO. Perhaps one of the many you promised but never delivered."
You just don't get it do you Moriarty?
You wouldn't understand an honest historical assessment of Merion East if it slapped you upside your grubby unshaven fadish no-count face!
Cirba isn't tearing down anyone as you two jerks are and have been with some of our best Philadelphia "amateur/sportsmen" architects such as Wilson and his club's members.
Your essay doesn't need and definitely doesn't deserve any IMO counterpoint piece or refutation. We thought of that in the very beginning a couple of years ago when it first came out but its reception with the people we care about and respect was refutation and counterpoint enough for us.
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"Not surprisingly, you seem to be confused between an honest historical assessment and overzealous sycophantic advocacy. I think being honest about Cobbs would be the best approach. Mike apparently thinks over-the-top cheerleading, exaggerating, legend-building, obfuscation, and tearing others down is the best approach. Must be a Philly thing.
If you want to discuss anything further with me, I suggest you do it in the form of an IMO. Perhaps one of the many you promised but never delivered."
You just don't get it do you Moriarty?
You wouldn't understand an honest historical assessment of Merion East if it slapped you upside your grubby unshaven fadish no-count face!
Cirba isn't tearing down anyone as you two jerks are and have been with some of our best Philadelphia "amateur/sportsmen" architects such as Wilson and his club's members.
Your essay doesn't need and definitely doesn't deserve any IMO counterpoint piece or refutation. We thought of that in the very beginning a couple of years ago when it first came out but its reception with the people we care about and respect was refutation and counterpoint enough for us.
If you want to discuss anything further with me, I suggest you do it in the form of an IMO. Perhaps one of the many you promised but never delivered.
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"If you want to discuss anything further with me, I suggest you do it in the form of an IMO. Perhaps one of the many you promised but never delivered."
Your essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion" doesn't deserve an IMO and either do you. Again, by ALL the people we care about and respect it was taken as at best transpanently distorted and at worst a real joke. Who needs to counterpoint or refute something that was roundly received like that? I'd say it produced its own refutation. Consequently, no counterpoint or refutation is necessary at this point.
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"If you want to discuss anything further with me, I suggest you do it in the form of an IMO. Perhaps one of the many you promised but never delivered."
Your essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion" doesn't deserve an IMO and either do you. Again, by ALL the people we care about and respect it was taken as at best transpanently distorted and at worst a real joke. Who needs to counterpoint or refute something that was roundly received like that? I'd say it produced its own refutation. Consequently, no counterpoint or refutation is necessary at this point.
Just keep telling yourself that and maybe some day you will be able to get over it.
In the mean time, put it in an IMO or shut the hell up.
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"Just keep telling yourself that and maybe some day you will be able to get over it.
In the mean time, put it in an IMO or shut the hell up."
Would you be willing to allow me to introduce you to the people most interested, most concerned about and closest to this particular subject of the archtectural creation of Merion East to see what THEY say about the necessity of an IMO on here or some counterpoint or refutation of your essay on Merion East entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion?"
And if not, why not? ;)
In the meantime, Moriarty, if you think I'm ever going to shut the hell up on the subject of you and your shennanigans on here, as I've told you many times before, that's not going to happen.
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"Just keep telling yourself that and maybe some day you will be able to get over it.
In the mean time, put it in an IMO or shut the hell up."
Would you be willing to allow me to introduce you to the people most interested, most concerned about and closest to this particular subject of the archtectural creation of Merion East to see what THEY say about the necessity of an IMO on here or some counterpoint or refutation of your essay on Merion East entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion?"
And if not, why not? ;)
In the meantime, Moriarty, if you think I'm ever going to shut the hell up on the subject of you and your shennanigans on here, as I've told you many times before, that's not going to happen.
No, I don't want any introductions from you. You are an imbalanced creep, and I want nothing to do with you, which is why I've asked you to put your supposed refutation in an IMO and leave me the hell alone.
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Baederwood was Huntingdon Valley Country Club's original course...
Kyle
Do you know if Baederwood was a redesign of HV or a new course built on the site of the old HV?
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Baederwood was Huntingdon Valley Country Club's original course...
Kyle
Do you know if Baederwood was a redesign of HV or a new course built on the site of the old HV?
As far as I know it was the HVCC Noble Course modified to eliminate the road crossings. I know it's profiled in Wexler's one book, but I don't have that handy at the time.
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Baederwood was a golf club formed in 1927 on the site of the original HVGC (formed in 1897) in Noble. The original nine hole course is attributed to John Reid and the added nine (reputedly in 1899) is unattributed. The course was considered to be one of the longest in the country with one nine of 3400+ yards.
In 1903 this course (HVGC) hosted an important match between the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society and the Golf Association of Philadelphia. One of the competitors for GAP was A.W. Tillinghast and one of the competitors for the Oxford/Cambridge Golfing Society was ironically Hugh Alison who would return to this site in 1927 and redesign the course after HVGC had moved to its present site and the Baederwood GC had been formed on HVGC's original site.
Apparently this Baederwood GC course lasted until the 1950s when the site was developed for purposes other than golf.
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Baederwood was Huntingdon Valley Country Club's original course...
Kyle
Do you know if Baederwood was a redesign of HV or a new course built on the site of the old HV?
As far as I know it was the HVCC Noble Course modified to eliminate the road crossings. I know it's profiled in Wexler's one book, but I don't have that handy at the time.
Kyle
Does your info on Baederwood come from Wexler's book or some other source?
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Mike
There may have been changes to Ottawa Park in the 20s, but Jermain was definitely behind the work in 1898 and 1908 when the original nine and second nine were laid out. Hence his title as "Father of Toledo Golf" and "Father of Public Golf in Toledo." He was also an original founder of Inverness in 1903. I believe he was that club's first president.
I've already cleared up Split Rock.
Tom,
Do you know the yardage of Ottawa Park for the US Publinks? B/c the course that is in play right now is a whopping 5,079 yards. I do not have to have overly long courses, but sub 5500 yard courses seem short even for me. I have always wondered if Ottawa Park GC has undergone major changes from when it opened. I know Art Hills redesigned it around 1977, but I do not know exactly what those changes were.
Thanks,
Chris
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Chris
I don't know....i'll see if I can find out. I know in 1930 the course was listed as 5321 par-69, and the professional course record was 67 (set in 1924).
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Here is the scorecard from the 1922 US Publinx:
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Here are the qualifying scores from 1922. It appears the medalist blew the field away.
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. . . I know Art Hills redesigned it around 1977, but I do not know exactly what those changes were.
Thanks,
Chris
Two articles from the Toledo Blade about the opening:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8cYxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0g0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6738,6284454&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1gkVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cQIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5212,6360053&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en
Another article reported the changes cost $600,000.
Sounds like the course fell into disrepair pretty quickly thereafter:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Y3UUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YgIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4776,6472229&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en
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How can one attempt to present a list of the best public courses of the era when it's pretty clear they are researching this on the fly and then making it up ass they go? ::) :-\
Funny coming from a guy who declared the "fact" that Cobbs Creek was better than any public course opened prior to Bethpage Black.
Why don't you tell us about your extensive survey of all the public courses in existence prior to the opening of Bethpage Black???
Lest you continue on with this nonsense about how MacWood's list is a catch all, there were reportedly 700 public courses in America by 1931.
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MikeC:
Regarding your last post-----don't worry about it. The only two who seem to take you to task on this thread and others are MacWood and Moriarty and it seems it has become crystal clear to most everyone on here those two are just a couple of blatant hypocrites saddled by a long time agenda to promote themselves by knocking Philadelphia architects, architecture and Philadelphians interested in the subject generally.
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Most of the "sophisticated bunkering" at Baederwood, formerly Huntingdon Valley, was due to the efforts of Ab Smith, the first Philadelphia Amateur champion (1897), who repeated in 1911, and who was one of the co-creators of Cobbs Creek.
For a number of years in the early teens, as head of the Green Committee at HVGC, Smith worked tirelessly in an effort to strengthen that course, and make it a real test of golf. In fact, until Merion was bunkered in 1915/16 for the US Amateur, Huntingdon Valley was deemed as the only course in the Philly area (fully open) that was a worthwhile championship test. Even though Philly Cricket had hosted major events, everyone in town saw that it was flawed and unable to keep up with changes to the golf ball.
Ab Smith? CH Alison doesn't deserve any credit? Do you know if Alison redesigned the existing golf course or built a new course on the old site?
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"The funniest and saddest thing is that this train wreck is happening under the banner of poor little, modest Juniata Golf Course, which even in its shabbiest form as an run-down muni in a bad neighborhood deserves a little bit more dignity and civility than these "historians" have provided here."
MikeC:
Yes indeed, the fact of poor little modest Juniata on this thread is the funniest and saddest thing-----particularly as MacWood wants to know and has asked a number of times if Wilson's name attached to it should serve to drag his reputation as an architect down! ;)
Apparently MacWood never considered that the clearly humble Hugh I. Wilson did not exactly intend to try to hit a home run with some of the other golf courses he got involved with other than Merion East and CC. That's quite the architectural oversight for a guy who constantly promotes himself on here as some kind of 'expert researcher/writer/historian' on golf course architecture and architects, don't you think?
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I added two courses from the Twin Cities and one more from Cleveland.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadwobrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Baederwood (1928) - CH.Alison
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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"I added two courses from the Twin Cities and one more from Cleveland."
Tom MacWood:
Why don't you just go ahead and add to your evolving list the remainder of the 700 public courses your cohort Moriarty just claimed existed in this country up to the end of this particular timeframe so we can all be done with it?
Is an expert researcher such as yourself having a hard time researching what they are? If so maybe some of the others on here can help you out. I suppose there must be some point to your slowly evolving list even though it appears most have not yet figured out what that point is.
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Ab Smith? CH Alison doesn't deserve any credit? Do you know if Alison redesigned the existing golf course or built a new course on the old site?
Tom,
What did C.H. Alison do at Baederwood and how different was it from the Huntingdon Valley course it replaced?
You said,
Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement. I believe it was his last American design. Both courses do a good job of utilizing a stream - at Baederwood it comes into play on 15 of the 18 holes. But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme.
Could you please compare and contrast the bunkering that was at HVGC previously with the work Alison did and tell us when he did it?
Mike
If I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have asked you and Kyle if Alison redesigned the existing course or created a new course on the old site. From your nimble non-answer that would make three of us who don't know the answer. Whoever is responsible it is a much more sophisticated design than CC.
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"I added two courses from the Twin Cities and one more from Cleveland."
Tom MacWood:
Why don't you just go ahead and add to your evolving list the remainder of the 700 public courses your cohort Moriarty just claimed existed in this country up to the end of this particular timeframe so we can all be done with it?
Is an expert researcher such as yourself having a hard time researching what they are? If so maybe some of the others on here can help you out. I suppose there must be some point to your slowly evolving list even though it appears most have not yet figured out what that point is.
TEP
Again, I thank for your participation on this thread, as usual you have lent us great insight into this subject, and in general golf architecture history. Keep up the good work.
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Tom,
For what its worth you should remove Beaver Tail. It wasn't a municipal course. It was actually one of the first semi-private courses, with a private club playing out of the club house while the public was given access of play. It was built and owned by Audley Clarke who was also the President of the Beaver Tail Golf Club. The original "club house," which was used for many years was, the parlor of his own home.
Since Mike's theory is based upon municipal golf courses, Beaver Tail must go as it wasn't one.
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"TEP
Again, I thank for your participation on this thread, as usual you have lent us great insight into this subject, and in general golf architecture history. Keep up the good work."
Thank you, thank you very much, Tom MacWood. I wish I could say the same for your participation and particularly Moriarty's on this thread.
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“Mike
If I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have asked you and Kyle if Alison redesigned the existing course or created a new course on the old site. From your nimble non-answer that would make three of us who don't know the answer. Whoever is responsible it is a much more sophisticated design than CC.”
Tom MacWood:
If you did not know the answer to that question then why did you say the following earlier about Baederwood and Alison’s involvement there?
“Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement. I believe it was his last American design. Both courses do a good job of utilizing a stream - at Baederwood it comes into play on 15 of the 18 holes. But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme.”
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I asked earlier if we had any reason to believe that the USGA, in choosing sites for the Publinx Championship, did a good job of identifying the best venues of the day. (I really don't know the answer to that - I assume that then, as now, the choice of USGA championship venues is based on many factors, with architectural quality being only one). But, in the absence so far of any other method of whittling down the list of all public courses around at the time, I thought I'd just recap:
The first bunch of courses (1922-36, I think) that the USGA chose to host the Publinx (and the USGA seemed to do a decent job of moving the championship around the country - though I'm surprised there is no course from Chicago there) are:
Ottawa Park, Toledo, Ohio;
E. Potomac Park, Washington, D.C
Community C.C., Dayton, Ohio;
Salisbury C.C., Garden City, N.Y
Grover Cleveland Park, Buffalo, N.Y
Ridgewood G.L., Cleveland, Ohio
Cobb's Creek, Philadephia, Pa
Forest Park, St. Louis, Mo
Municipal Links, Jacksonville, Fla
Keller G.C., St. Paul, Minn
Shawnee G.C., Louisville, Ky
Eastmoreland G.C., Portland, Ore
S. Park Allegheny C.L., Pittsburgh, Pa
Coffin Course, Indianapolis, Ind
Bethpage State Park, Farmingdale, N.Y
Tom M noted that "all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best -- for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red, Memorial Park, Harding Park or Starmount Forest never hosted the event.".
So if we add those to the list, again, the question - Do we think this grouping of courses represents a useful first-step in identifying what public courses were thought of as the best of their era?
Peter
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Peter:
When it came to the USGA scheduling tournaments back in that era, one thing you may keep in mind was that in that era of that list the USGA had only one or two people in a small office in New York City actually working for the board of directors who were all volunteers with other careers. Even when the 34 year Executive Director, the famous Mr. Joe Dey, took over in 1935 the only staff was he and two other guys in NYC. By comparison today in Far Hills, NJ, the present home of the USGA they have over 300 people working there. Back in that day I suspect the quality of the courses used as venues for the Publinks championships may've occured to them but I probably wasn't all that high on their priority list.
But back then and still today, the USGA doesn't exactly go out looking for clubs and courses to hold championships-----the latter still pretty much have to come to them with a request first and if they pass a board vote they are extended an invitation.
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Peter
All those golf courses are either on my list or were strongly considered for the list. The courses that didn't make the grade were either private clubs or in cities which had better public courses. And I didn't stop at 1936, there are worthy courses that hosted the US Publinx after 1936, including the three I just added.
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Tom,
For what its worth you should remove Beaver Tail. It wasn't a municipal course. It was actually one of the first semi-private courses, with a private club playing out of the club house while the public was given access of play. It was built and owned by Audley Clarke who was also the President of the Beaver Tail Golf Club. The original "club house," which was used for many years was, the parlor of his own home.
Since Mike's theory is based upon municipal golf courses, Beaver Tail must go as it wasn't one.
It is not a list of municipal courses, it is a list of public/daily fee courses, and Beaver Tail falls under that category. Resort courses and private courses turned public do not qualify. By the way we are still waiting for you to respond to post 174.
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“Mike
If I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have asked you and Kyle if Alison redesigned the existing course or created a new course on the old site. From your nimble non-answer that would make three of us who don't know the answer. Whoever is responsible it is a much more sophisticated design than CC.”
Tom MacWood:
If you did not know the answer to that question then why did you say the following earlier about Baederwood and Alison’s involvement there?
“Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement. I believe it was his last American design. Both courses do a good job of utilizing a stream - at Baederwood it comes into play on 15 of the 18 holes. But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme.”
Because Alison was involved, and the course exhibited a number of his tail tell signs.
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Tom,
As the word "Muni" is in the title I must have been mistaken...
I also missed the question in Post #174.
The answersare several and all quite simple. First, the courses chosen for use in the Public Links Championship were the Black and the Blue. When the Black was not available they changed to the Blue and the Red. The final rounds were played on the Blue. It was considered superior for the tournament's use by the USGA.
Secondly, from 1935 when the Blue opened as the first of the three new courses to do so, until well into the 1940's, there were only TWO courses used for exhibition matches for professional men to compete on; the Black and Blue. In fact, the first few exhibition matches were hosted on the BLUE course. Players such as Paul Runyan, Jimmy Hines and other big names competed in them and all sung its praise.
In addition, there are numerous articles from those years which more than allude to it being the superior course. For example, if you visit the Tillinghast Association website and take a look at the slideshow on Bethpage, there is an article detailing defending champion Strafaci's first round of play on the "Red course" while others "scores mounted on the much tougher, par 72 Blue course..."
Below is a typical article about the Blue course. This is from May 10th, 1935, New York Times, the day after a number of professionals played a "test round" on the course. Nopte the quote from "Whiffy Cox" found in the headline: "The Finest Public Links I Have Ever Seen."
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/BlueCourse1stExhibitionmatch5-9-193.jpg)
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/BlueCourse1stExhibitionmatch5-9--1.jpg)
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/BlueCourse1stExhibitionmatch5-9--2.jpg)
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/BlueCourse1stExhibitionmatch5-9--3.jpg)
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What you also don't realize is that the original BLUE course was considered to be a better and far more challenging course than the Red which is why it was chosen as one of the original two hosts and was also then chosen to be the site of the final rounds since the Black was no longer going to be used.
So, in my opinion, if you want your contention that Baederwood was superior to Cobb's Creek up until the Depression, for that is the timeframe that Mike delineated in his opinion, than YOU need to provide those contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof.
Phil-the-Author
That wasn't the question. The question was how do you rationalize your Bethpage Blue/Red comparison after getting on your high horse with the Baederwood/Cobbs comparison? You ought to practice what you preach.
By the way courses involved in the qualifying rounds are not considered a course that hosted the championship. For example North Shore shared the qualifying rounds for 1920 US Am with Engineers, but NS has never hosted the US Am.
As far was the title of the thread that is Mike's not mine. For someone who has participated on this thread for long time now I'm surprised you were not aware of that. The thread took a turn when Mike wrote:
"However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country."
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Because Alison was involved, and the course exhibited a number of his tail tell signs.
Tom,
I'm really very, very curious to hear you tell us what those tell-tale Alison signs at Baederwood were.
Like the Huntingdon Valley course, Baederwood occurpied a very narrow strip of land, was low-lying and stayed very wet, and crossed public roads twice. Both courses were barely 6000 yards.
You Tom, were the one who questioned Ab Smith's work there, instead preferring to credit Alison, I guess because he had some cache', but probably more because Ab Smith was another of those blasted Philadelphia amateur architects.
So please, I'm all ears...why don't you tell us what Hugh Alison did at Baederwood that made it the epitome of Philadelphia sophistication.
Mike
Don't be so defensive. I'm sure once we are able to determine exactly what happened we will be able to give Ab his just deserves (or not). Regarding Baederwood showing signs of Alison work two things standout to me: the maximization of the stream in the routing and the large prototypical Alison bunkers.
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Tom M noted that "all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best -- for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red, Memorial Park, Harding Park or Starmount Forest never hosted the event.".
So if we add those to the list, again, the question - Do we think this grouping of courses represents a useful first-step in identifying what public courses were thought of as the best of their era?
Peter
Peter,
Tom was wrong. Bethpage Red and Harding Park hosted the Publinks in the 1930s, and the Black was selected but wasn't ready, as Phil explained.
I was wrong about Harding Park, but the Red or Black never hosted the event....the Blue hosted it.
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Phil-the-Author
That wasn't the question. The question was how do you rationalize your Bethpage Blue/Red comparison after getting on your high horse with the Baederwood/Cobbs comparison? You ought to practice what you preach.
Tom, please refer to my earlier post. I added just a few of the "facts" that allow me to "rationalize" as I do. I hit the enter buttion by mistake before I added the rest. I DO practice what I preach. When are you going to show some "FACTS" for your rationalizations? And just so you know, my horse has been going to AA meetings for several years now and is no longer "High."
By the way courses involved in the qualifying rounds are not considered a course that hosted the championship. For example North Shore shared the qualifying rounds for 1920 US Am with Engineers, but NS has never hosted the US Am.
Really? Still, even by your own definition the BLUE course hosted a national championship as the FINAL ROUNDS were played over it."
As far was the title of the thread that is Mike's not mine. For someone who has participated on this thread for long time now I'm surprised you were not aware of that. The thread took a turn when Mike wrote:
"However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country."
As someone who has participated in this thread for quite a while it is quite obvious that you are commenting to a different theme and supposition that Mike posted. For example, he has stated over and over again that THIS THREAD was about courses designed no later than 1930. He has explained that many times to you and yet you continue to list courses opened AFTER that date. He even went so far as to edit a response in BLUE ink (which is why I used Red here to differentiate) that explained it again after which you kept on citing courses opened after 1930. You are the one either not paying attention or not caring. And yes Tom, I was well aware that it was MIKE who started the thread and posted the title and the theme he wanted to discuss...
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Phil
That is not proof...YOU need to provide contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof. Under your logic Bethpage-Blue is superior to Bethpage-Black.
I don't think you understand how one determines who hosts the event. In the case of match play the course that hosts that portion of the championship is considered the host. The course or courses involved in the qualifying are not necessarily the host although in most cases the course who hosts the match play championship is also involved in the qualifying. For example Merion East & West in 1916. The East hosted the championship event and was also involved in the qualifying (along with the West).
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Tom,
What if I told you those large, prototypical Charles Alison bunkers, the same one's you're viewing in 2-dimensions in Daniel Wexler's book, were there when the course was still Huntingdon Valley in the mid-20s?
What if I told you that the as much of the prototypical elegant, sophisticated Charles Alison routing you're viewing in Dan Wexler's book in 2-dimensions, that allows you to compare and contrast the courses that were on the ground 80 years ago without actually ever seeing them, or understanding their landforms in three-dimension, was there when the course was still Huntingdon Valley in the mid-20s?
What if I told you that despite Ab Smith's diligent efforts to give Philadelphia a championship worthy course at HVGC, guys like Tillinghast wrote that he'd probably gotten everything out of the land that it would permit,simply because it stayed wet, agronomics were a constant problem, and the property was limited?
Yet, you sit here and determine and pontificate that one course you've never seen that you obviously know nothing about HAS to be better than another course you've never seen, and which you obviously know nothing about, all because you're viewing a two-dimensional drawing that looks to have some cute bunkers.
Now, I know this will send you scrambling, but don't waste your time. I'm sure you will find a news article proclaiming that the great Mr. Alison is in town and is going to make the course at Baederwood the finest of it's kind anywhere.
There is no shame in not being an expert in every course ever built, but don't try to come off as one.
I'm looking at the aerials from the Hagley, not Daniel's drawing.
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Phil-the-Author
I just saw your article. Doesn't that article state that neither the Red nor Black was open for play? Are saying that article is proof the Blue was considered superior to the Red?
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Mike
I thought a couple of those bunkers at Baederwood were a bit odd ball looking, now we know what is AH Smith and what is CH Alison. Like I said Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement.
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Tom,
Now I'm wondering if YOU are high and not simply on your own high horse!
Phil
That is not proof...YOU need to provide contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof. Under your logic Bethpage-Blue is superior to Bethpage-Black.
I DID! Or is an article written the DAY AFTER the course opened not contemporaneous enough for you? As far as the article even intimating that it was superior to the Black, you OBVIOUSLY didn't bother to read the article. It states, "the third unit, the 'Black' course, which will be a real championship unit, will probably not be opened for a year or more..." Whiffy wasn't including the "Black" course in his opinion as to the Blue being the "Finest Public Links" he had ever seen since it wasn't even finished yet!
I don't think you understand how one determines who hosts the event. In the case of match play the course that hosts that portion of the championship is considered the host. The course or courses involved in the qualifying are not necessarily the host although in most cases the course who hosts the match play championship is also involved in the qualifying. For example Merion East & West in 1916. The East hosted the championship event and was also involved in the qualifying (along with the West).
Once again you show that you didn't read what I wrote. Here it is once again, "Still, even by your own definition the BLUE course hosted a national championship as the FINAL ROUNDS were played over it." The BLUE Course hosted the championship portion which is why the FINAL ROUNDS were played on it. Why, though, wouldn't the RED Course also properly be considered as having "hosted" the championship since it, TOO, hosted the final rounds of championship play... the TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP portion of the event! There was a TEAM portion to the Publick Links as well as an INDIVIDUAL portion. Evidently you weren't aware of that. Clubs and cities actually sent entire teams to copmpete. I'd be more than happy to post an article about it and photos of some of the teams, but I don't think you'd think them "contemporaneous" as they were written and taken days BEFORE the event started and during it...
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Correct Tom, the Red wouldn't open for another month. Sorry, but there are simply too many articles that cite the Blue as being superior to the Red course before the Black opened for play. Again, the Red course is not used for exhibition matches durinmg the next decade plus while the Blue was and quite often.
By the way, can you show me a SINGLE article that states that the Red course was even its superior? I don't think you'll be able to.
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Correct Tom, the Red wouldn't open for another month. Sorry, but there are simply too many articles that cite the Blue as being superior to the Red course before the Black opened for play. Again, the Red course is not used for exhibition matches durinmg the next decade plus while the Blue was and quite often.
By the way, can you show me a SINGLE article that states that the Red course was even its superior? I don't think you'll be able to.
Saying there are too many articles to cite is not proof.
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Mike
Nice picture...you can really see the detail. Here is the link for those interested. The 1927 aerial looks like it may be taken in the later phases of construction....I assume that is the Flynn course.
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=445&CISOBOX=1&REC=6
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6906&CISOBOX=1&REC=8
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I'm taking Baederwood off the list....I think it is pretty clear it was a redesign of HV.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadwobrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Not showing ANY as you haven't is certainly even less...
C'mon Tom, what is so hard with imagining that the ORIGINAL Blue Course at Bethpage was considered superior to the Red? The USGA believed it so, which one has to believe they did since they held the Public Links Championship on it. The park itself believed it as well as they could have used any of the courses for exhibition matches but they didn't use the Red and did use the Blue.
CONTEMPORANEOUS nationally recognized professionals such as Whiffy Cox and others considered the Blue to be the best in the country before the Red was opened.
By the way, here's another one, the last one that I'll post. It's also from the New York Times and was published on September 26, just a few months after the Publick Links was held on it. It is an announcement that the Metropolitan Professional Golfer's Association Championship would be held on the BLUE course. Now WHY would they choose to use the BLUE if the RED was superior to it? The Black, though it was now open for play, was still not in good enough shape with its turf to host it. So why not use the RED if it was better?
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Bethpage259-26-1936-1.jpg)
Even you can see the logic in that, especially when you read what it says about the BLUE course. "The Blue Course is already well known because of the National Public Links Tournament which was played on it in July..." Then it mentions a few pretty well known pros who had an exhibition on it in September...
I'll let you look up the articles about that match and the comments made about the course...
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Tom,
Nice try...Too funny.
Should I post the 1927 pic too? The course was still HVGC at that time.
Mike
Is that 1927 pic the old course or the new course?
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6906&CISOBOX=1&REC=8
Who originally designed HV, and when did AH Smith make his changes? What do you know of George Low and HS Colt's redesign work on the course? I suspect Alison redesigned HV, and not Baederwood, and that was probably around 1921 when his was in Philly working on PVGC.
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Phil
That is proof the Blue was considered superior to the Red? Whatever you say...
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TMac,
Please help me understand...you ask Phil for articles and he supplies them. You post articles about the courses you value that basically tout the tournaments they have held, as being evidence that they were good. Phil posts an article about how well known the Blue was, and the tournaments it held and you are very dismissive?
Not really knowing either course well, can you supply your opinion as to why that isn't at least some evidence that the Blue was good, compared to some of your posts in a similar vein?
BTW, I did some work at Nemadji when working up in Minnesota. Its a nice public course, but I didn't see huge amounts of architectural signifigance. In some ways, I wonder just how valid this whole thread is, since none of us played any of these in the time period listed. In the end, its your opinion vs Mike Cirbas or anyones opinion against anyone elses, no?
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"Phil, That is proof the Blue was considered superior to the Red? Whatever you say..."
Well look at that Tom, you're finally starting to get it.
Now its time for you to supply some articles or proof of any kind. Despite your having been asked to do what you keep demanding of others you simply refuse to supply a single article to prove any of your claims.
I can provide you with DOZENS of similar articles about the BLUE course but why should I bother when you refuse to supply even a single one. Why should anyone bother when you simply won't and then respond with sarcasm for what has been posted? You've lost any and all credibility until you do.
This thread is 100% about individuals OPINIONS. There is no correct or incorrect answer, simply opinions held and disagreed with. I am more than willing to respect any opinion you state on here but can't when you won't respect those of anyone else. So, you wanted contemporaneous articles, etc... and you got some. Now its time for you to do the same...
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. . . I know Art Hills redesigned it around 1977, but I do not know exactly what those changes were.
Thanks,
Chris
Two articles from the Toledo Blade about the opening:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8cYxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0g0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6738,6284454&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1gkVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cQIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5212,6360053&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en
Another article reported the changes cost $600,000.
Sounds like the course fell into disrepair pretty quickly thereafter:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Y3UUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YgIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4776,6472229&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en
'Scores in the low and upper 60's by the better golfer were fairly common on the old layout . . .' hardly seems like one of the best public golf courses around. Especially at a yardage of 5,613 yards.
It is also interesting to note that the course went from 5,613 yards to 5,478 (1977) to a present day 5,079 yardage.
Thanks for the articles on the course.
Chris
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Mike
You seem to be wound a little tight tonight. Here is a link to an aerial of Baederwood and the bunkers in this picture are typical of Alison.
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6140&CISOBOX=1&REC=6
Did AH Smith lay out HV originally? George Thomas's book claims Low and Colt were involved at some point, what do you know about that?
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I've removed Ottawa Park based on Chris's recommendation. Nemadji was at one time private so it is off too.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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TMac,
Please help me understand...you ask Phil for articles and he supplies them. You post articles about the courses you value that basically tout the tournaments they have held, as being evidence that they were good. Phil posts an article about how well known the Blue was, and the tournaments it held and you are very dismissive?
Not really knowing either course well, can you supply your opinion as to why that isn't at least some evidence that the Blue was good, compared to some of your posts in a similar vein?
BTW, I did some work at Nemadji when working up in Minnesota. Its a nice public course, but I didn't see huge amounts of architectural signifigance. In some ways, I wonder just how valid this whole thread is, since none of us played any of these in the time period listed. In the end, its your opinion vs Mike Cirbas or anyones opinion against anyone elses, no?
Jeff
If you think those articles prove the Blue was considered superior to the Red thats good enough for me. I personally don't see it, but lets move on.
I just discovered Nemadji was originally a private club (Gitchinadji GC) so I'm taking it off the list.
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TMac,
I don't really know what they prove, but they seemed to be similar in scope to some of the ones you posted to prove your points, and I was curious as to what the difference was, other than Mike posted them and you posted yours. I have no real interest in joining the cat fight.
I do appreciate your list of courses, as it kind of gives a good snap shot of where public golf was in the era. I am not sure we can tell a lot from various opinions we might have based on aerials, newspaper articles, etc.
I read a golf industry article the other day that said even today, with private courses comprising a much smaller % of the total golf courses than publics, that overall, a surprising amount of the total rounds are still played at private clubs. Pre coffee, I can't recall where I saw that or I would post it. However, I presume public play is proportionally greater today, leading me to wonder if any of those articles post actual rounds played at these places back in the 1920's?
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Tom,
Nice try...Too funny.
Should I post the 1927 pic too? The course was still HVGC at that time.
Mike
Is that 1927 HV pic the old course or the new course?
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6906&CISOBOX=1&REC=8
Who originally designed HV, and when did AH Smith make his changes? What do you know of George Low and HS Colt's redesign work on the course? I suspect Alison redesigned HV, and not Baederwood, and that was probably around 1921 when his was in Philly working on PVGC.
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I found this little blurb on Ottawa Park in the Philadelphia Inquirer:
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Tom,
You do know that Flynn did work on the Noble Course at HVCC too, right? And that it is fairly well documented - even with the changes outlined on Flynn individual hole plans.
Not to be a real bother - but can you tell the work Flynn did from the aerial? I'll try to find the original changes on the Flynn plan and post once you answer.
Yes, I'm being a real chore here, but I don't think you quite understand the full extent of the evolution of the Baederwood/Noble course and especially not based on the aerial and a few secondary sources.
And yes, the 1927 aerial is of the current Flynn course. Very interesting to see the similarities and differences in the design for me.
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How in the world is Tom MacWood (or anyone else for that matter ;) ) going to pick out Flynn changes to the Noble course or Alison changes or anyone else's changes from about 5,000ft aerials if he doesn't seem to even recognize the difference between the old Noble course and the present golf course on just two aerials? ??? It is just amazing to me some of the things that man tends to say on here under the guise of certainty. Too bad Cirba is about the only one on this thread who's actually laughing at him.
If you'd like to know what Flynn did on the old Noble course I'd be glad to tell you; it's in the book. And it seems like HVGC has a pretty decent record of what happened on both courses (other than who originally did the second nine on the old Noble course) and it sure doesn't look like Alison did anything to the old Noble course until it became the Baederwood club after HVGC moved. But what the hell if MacWood says he can spot Alison bunkers on a 1921 aerial of the old Noble course I guess that proves Alison was there in 1920 or 1921 when he was around here doing a master plan for Pine Valley! ::)
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(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:KU__VK678EiJ6M:http://thisfragiletent.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/israel-125year-old-man-laughing.jpg)
"Too bad Cirba is about the only one on this thread who's actually laughing at him"
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Tom,
You do know that Flynn did work on the Noble Course at HVCC too, right? And that it is fairly well documented - even with the changes outlined on Flynn individual hole plans.
Not to be a real bother - but can you tell the work Flynn did from the aerial? I'll try to find the original changes on the Flynn plan and post once you answer.
Yes, I'm being a real chore here, but I don't think you quite understand the full extent of the evolution of the Baederwood/Noble course and especially not based on the aerial and a few secondary sources.
And yes, the 1927 aerial is of the current Flynn course. Very interesting to see the similarities and differences in the design for me.
Kyle
I didn't know that....what year did Flynn rework the Noble course?
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I added Opa Locka, Pasadena and Mount Plymouth in Florida. There was a lot of quality (and quanity) in Florida in the 1920s.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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EDIT - To be clear, what I meant by "until the 1930s" should have been more accurately stated as "until the depression". Government work programs during the 1930s poured tons of money and construction efforts into existing and new public golf courses, making it a very blurry decade in terms of relational course comparisons. We only know that by the end of the decade, Bethpage Black emerged as the clear best and most demanding, and several other new great public venues were built.
Mike
No, I would not agree. CC was not even close to being the best or most demanding public golf course in America. On a good day it was somewhere in the middle of the pack, and that is on a very good day.
Also your elimination of all the courses built in the 1930s is ridiculous. The WPA and other public work programs did not begin until late in 1933, so the cut off should be 1933 at the earliest.
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'Scores in the low and upper 60's by the better golfer were fairly common on the old layout . . .' hardly seems like one of the best public golf courses around. Especially at a yardage of 5,613 yards.
It is also interesting to note that the course went from 5,613 yards to 5,478 (1977) to a present day 5,079 yardage.
Thanks for the articles on the course.
No problem. I was curious myself. I am not sure we should dismiss Ottowa because they were tearing it up score-wise in 1977, especially because we don't know what had happened to it prior to 1977. For example, as you mention, the course had lost over 500 yards somewhere along the way.
Also, early last century, 5613 yards was not all that short. For example, one of the articles Mike posted listed Cobbs Creek (according to him the best and most difficult public in all the land) at only 6072 yards. And given the way they used to measure golf courses in Philadelphia, there is a very good chance that Cobbs was significantly shorter than 6000 yards.
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I feel more confident than ever stating that until the Depression, Cobb's Creek was acknowledged as the best and most demanding public course in the country.
1. It was acknowledged as "the best and most demanding"? By whom? Because your supposed contemporary newspaper accounts do not even come close to making your case. How can you possibly pretend that articles from 1916 support your claim that Cobbs was the best and most demanding course prior to 1936, or even before 1930? I doubt the authors had supernatural powers; they weren't even from Philadelphia. Your "support" is yet another example of that absurd Cirbaian logic, where you start with a conclusion and then stretch and twist whatever phacts you can to pretend to support it. An abcirbaty.
2. Your pretension that you meant 1930 instead of 1936 is beyond specious. The 1936 date was mentioned multiple times on this thread and you never had a problem with it, never clarified, never mentioned the 1930 date, never said you were misunderstood. It wasn't until a few days later when you tried to put together a list of your own that you must have realized the absurdity of your claim and started trying to narrow it. But even then, in your new thread, you didn't initially claim that you had been misunderstood and you meant 1930 from the beginning. Rather, when asked why you narrowed the date range, you claimed it was because too much was going on in the 1930's-- nothing about being misunderstood. The whole misunderstanding cry was invented later, in response to MacWood's list. And I agree with Tom that your explanation of your change of heart is ridiculous. In addition to his point, I'd add that many of the courses opened in the early thirties were in the works, even planned and partially constructed, before WPA became an issue.
3. Your continued mockery and dismissal of courses you obviously know nothing about is too much. Believe it or not, Mike, there were very good public courses outside of Philadelphia and even outside of your knowledge base. I've played Cobbs and know a bit about its history. I also know something about about some of the West Coast courses on the list (and a few not on it) and for you to proclaim Cobbs the absolute best and hardest in the land until 1936 (or even 1930) is ludicrous.
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" Your "support" is yet another example of that absurd Cirbaian logic, where you start with a conclusion and then stretch and twist whatever phacts you can to pretend to support it."
MY GOD, YOU should talk!! I doubt there has ever been a a more egregious example of trying to distort facts to arrive at predetemined premises and conclusions than your absurd essay "The Missing Faces of Merion." That was precisely the overwhelming impression of all those who read it who actually know something about the history of that course and its actual arachitects!
When it comes to the art of distorted logic (vaguely a technique Brad Klein accurately labeled "positivism" with MacWood's "Arts and Crafts" essay) that is essentially the only thing you and MacWood are stars at on here.
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Chris,
Please do not concern yourself with inconvenient facts like this as it will only make you think and question and get a headache.
Instead, please just accept our word that Ottawa Park was one of the greatest public golf courses ever built, even at 5600 yards, and we know that because we have our subscriptions to newsarchive.com and can find you some articles about this awesome course in seconds.
We've never seen or played there, but we can quote that S P. Jermain was involved with its inception and was even brought back in the 20s for a redesign, so it's gotta be good.
If nothing else, it's better than any course ever built in Philadelphia.
Thanks,
David Moriarty and Tom MacWood
Golf Course Historians, Extraordinaire
[/quote]
Mike,
I have played the current Ottawa Park GC numerous times and it is fun a quirky and has a solid finishing 18th hole and a TON of driveable par 4’s for me and that is saying something. But, I would never confuse this course for being great. I have read the info on S. Jermain in the old American Golfer or Golf Illustrated articles (I just don’t have the time to find and then post them like Tom has). I have also played many of the courses that Tom has on his list and would not even think about playing this course over any of the ones that I have played (Triggs, Tam O’Shanter PA and OH, Belvedere, Rackham, Split Rock, etc). I have not played Cobb’s Creek and that is why I did not reference it, so please do not read into my not including it. I have wanted to play the course, but I figure I will need to play it in the late season to not go nuts trying to get a round in in under 5 hours.
On a positive, note I think you Tom, David, etc do great research!!!
Thanks,
Chris
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I added Tam O'Shanter in Canton. I had mistakenly thought it had been a private club originally.
Tom,
Why is the Tam O'Shanter Dales course on the list over the Hills course? As the Hills course opened in 1931? I have played both and they are a ton of fun on some wild undulating terrain?
Thanks,
Chris
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" Your "support" is yet another example of that absurd Cirbaian logic, where you start with a conclusion and then stretch and twist whatever phacts you can to pretend to support it."
MY GOD, YOU should talk!! I doubt there has ever been a a more egregious example of trying to distort facts to arrive at predetemined premises and conclusions than your absurd essay "The Missing Faces of Merion." That was precisely the overwhelming impression of all those who read it who actually know something about the history of that course and its actual arachitects!
When it comes to the art of distorted logic (vaguely a technique Brad Klein accurately labeled "positivism" with MacWood's "Arts and Crafts" essay) that is essentially the only thing you and MacWood are stars at on here.
Another swipe, one of thousands, and yet still no substantive refutation of a single key point in the IMO. It must really bother you that an outsider could have figured out what happened at Merion East, given you were sitting on everything and had no clue.
As you say, no substantive rebuttal is necessary. The essay was and is correct on every major point, so there really isn't much to correct, especially when doing so would confirm the accuracy of the major theses. If you disagree, put it in an IMO. Otherwise, quit boring us with your pettiness.
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Mike Cirba,
Mind explaining how the 1916 article acknowledged that Cobbs was the best and most difficult public course prior to 1936, 1930, or any other date after 1916?
Surely the article you just posted isn't your proof is it? According to the Philadelphia commissioner, in 1925, one guy likes Cobbs better than the New York courses and one in Dayton, Ohio? And your conclusion was that Cobbs was absolutely the best in the land. An abcirbaty.
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"As you say, no substantive rebuttal is necessary."
Yes, that is what I've said a number of times and that is the way I (and everyone I know and respect) feels about that essay, at this point.
"The essay was and is correct on every major point, so there really isn't much to correct, especially when doing so would confirm the accuracy of the major theses."
If I knew of more than a handful of people (I frankly know of less than that) who actually share YOUR OPINION of your OWN essay ;) I might actually consider doing a good IMO counter-point essay to that absurd piece just to enlighten them, but at this point I don't know of more than a few (including you and MacWood and perhaps still Mucci) who think it's necessary. Everyone else I know and respect pretty much saw through it on their own and gernerally for its remarkably transparent fallacious reasoning.
Therefore, the necessity to do a counterpoint IMO just isn't there anymore.
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TEPaul, Fortunately for me, the opinion of you and your cronies has no bearing on the truth or accuracy of my essay. I look forward to your IMO. I am sure it will be fact filled and fully supported by the source material.
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Mike Cirba,
I'll gladly admit when I am wrong. Wrong about what, exactly?
I wrote that you never objected or clarified the 1936 date until after you started the second thread. As usual, your understanding has little relationship to what you've read.
But I understand why you will not explain how a 1916 article acknowledged Cobbs greatness long after that date, or how the these articles could possibly justify you claim.
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"I have no desire to continue any communications with you, at all, David, and no, I won't explain another thing."
Michael:
You don't? Oh come on fella, what's the matter with you? I guess this means you no longer like shooting a fish in a barrel, huh? ;)
As Tom Cruise's reo said in TOP GUN; "Come on Maverick, shake it off, RE-ENGAGE and get back in the game!"
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Tom,
Why is the Tam O'Shanter Dales course on the list over the Hills course? As the Hills course opened in 1931? I have played both and they are a ton of fun on some wild undulating terrain?
Thanks,
Chris
Chris
I chose the Dales because it was the tougher (slightly) of the two, and the long time host of the Ohio Open. I thought about including both courses, but I thought I might be accused of being an Ohio homer.
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TMac,
I doubt anyone would bother much even if your list exhibited a little homerism. It is prevalent around here, no?
That said, I wonder how you or anyone can discern if one course was "slightly tougher"? How many of these have you seen in their current form? How do you make your judgements on the past? I am not criticizing because I appreciate the effort you put into this. But, as long as its sort of a ranking, and we critique everyone elses ranking methods, we will probably comment on yours!
If its intuitive, I am fine with that. But it seems you go by tournaments held, and other more tangible reports from your newspaper file. In the end, I guess that is about as close as we can get it for this excersize, and in reality, nothing you write opinion wise should be subject to such harsh criticisms, even if it seems old battle lines are forming.
I had no idea the civil war was fought between Philly and Ohio!
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Jeff,
Those are fair questions, but better directed at Mike Cirba than Tom MacWood. Mike is the only one here who as claimed the superiority of one course over all others publics. My understanding is that Tom is merely attempting to provide a cross section of the better public courses of the era, and that he would gladly consider altering the list (and repeatedly has) as further information becomes available. I don't think he is foolish enough to try to pretend he can accurately rank them or come up with a single course that was objectively better and harder than the rest. That is Mike Cirba's gig, not Tom MacWood's.
I presume a secondary purpose of the list is to make clear the ridiculousness of Mike Cirba's claim. How on earth could Mike Cirba know that Cobb's Creek was better than both of George Thomas' Griffith Park Courses or both of Billy Bell's Sunset Hills courses or Harding Park or Haggin Oaks? How could he say that Cobbs was harder (or better) than the first Brookside course in Pasadena, which remains a bear to this day? (Nothing necessarily special about these courses, mind you, just ones that came to mind as I was typing.) Surely his 1916 newspaper article doesn't address any of this, does it?
In short, I read Tom's list as a round-about way of asking Mike the same type of questions that you and others pose to Tom MacWood. On what basis could he possibly have made the claim he has? Surely two old newspaper clippings don't cut it, do they?
But you, Phil the Author, and others don't seem interested in posing these questions to Mike. Only TomM.
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Deleted...
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Phil the Author,
Huh? My comment has nothing to do with Brackenridge Park or "your feelings for Tillie." (But nice job getting the Tillie plug in.) It has to do with the double standard, where you demand facts from me and Tom MacWood, yet you give Mike Cirba a pass. Ironically, I haven't even made any such claims that would merit the sort of proof you are demanding, and I don't think MacWood has either (but he can speak for himself.) You and Mike are the only ones here who have pronounced any courses better than the rest.
I didn't claim that any single course was better than Cobb's. In fact, from the beginning I have claimed that Mike's claim is absurd in large part because . . .
1) He has never supported his claim with anything remotely reasonable. You may find that a 1916 article is support enough to establish greatness decades later, but I dont.
2) He doesn't have the knowledge base to make such a claim. None of us do.
3. Mike stated it as a FACT.
You are all wet here, Phil the Author. You apparently have grasped neither the nature of my critique nor the significance of MacWood's list, despite that I have explained both a few times now.
You understand what you want to understand, despite what is written.
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Tom,
Why is the Tam O'Shanter Dales course on the list over the Hills course? As the Hills course opened in 1931? I have played both and they are a ton of fun on some wild undulating terrain?
Thanks,
Chris
Chris
I chose the Dales because it was the tougher (slightly) of the two, and the long time host of the Ohio Open. I thought about including both courses, but I thought I might be accused of being an Ohio homer.
Tom,
I have played both and I believe the Dales is a very good course and a solid assition to the list. I just wanted to know if you have any rationiale for including one over the other. I agree with this course a heck of a lot more than Ottawa Park.
On a side note, I played a 9 hole course in the area recently that I am positive is a Leanoard Macomber course - very similar greens, use of terrain and grassed in bunkering as the Hills and Dales at Tam O'Shanter. I have not had time to dig into it to find out more about it.
I am enjoying your researching of this list - keep up the good work!!! :)
Thanks,
Chris
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TMac,
I doubt anyone would bother much even if your list exhibited a little homerism. It is prevalent around here, no?
That said, I wonder how you or anyone can discern if one course was "slightly tougher"? How many of these have you seen in their current form? How do you make your judgements on the past? I am not criticizing because I appreciate the effort you put into this. But, as long as its sort of a ranking, and we critique everyone elses ranking methods, we will probably comment on yours!
If its intuitive, I am fine with that. But it seems you go by tournaments held, and other more tangible reports from your newspaper file. In the end, I guess that is about as close as we can get it for this excersize, and in reality, nothing you write opinion wise should be subject to such harsh criticisms, even if it seems old battle lines are forming.
I had no idea the civil war was fought between Philly and Ohio!
I can tell you this, the Hills and the Dales have changed very little from their orginal form, except for some of the bunker being grassed in, I would say the routing is the same and all of the greens appear to be original. That is there are not modern looking holes that a Brian Huntley snuck in!!! ;D Fo the record, I like the work of Huntley in general terms, but he has done a lot of renovation work to older courses in Ohio.
Chris
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Chris,
I like Brians new stuff a lot, but haven't played his redos in Ohio.
DM,
I agree in a way - no doubt MC is a homer! TMac has postulated what his opinons as to better courses were, sometimes just to keep the battle going (and he is not alone) It seems to have started with the argument over the "best year" to make the list, because he just couldn't let Mike have his thread ending at 1930. Shouldn't the author be allowed to pick a date for God Sake?
Under different circumstance, and without many feeling the need to elevate one over the other, his list of "Good Public Courses in the US pre 1936" is a nice accomplishment. I have enjoyed reading his research and old articles.
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Mike can make whatever claims he wants in whatever threads he wants. And he can clarify or change his mind or just flat out contradict himself all he wants, too. He did pick a date and started a different thread using that date. But MacWood chose to address something he said on this thread, when he used Bethpage Black as the end date. 1935 or 1936 seem to be reasonable dates, and much closer to the actual time that these WPA courses started coming on line. Besides, surely MacWood can choose whatever approach he wants, whether Mike likes it or not.
In reality it doesn't matter much. Mike's claim about Cobb's is just as absurd whether it cuts off in 1930 or 1936, because he has offered no reasonable basis for making either such a claim. That is just the way he operates.
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David,
You are right. I didn't check too carefully which thread (or as I like to call it, alternate universe) I was in. And I do understand the logic for both the start of the depression or 1936.
IMHO, neither "side" in this debate has clean hands when it comes to supplying proof, and what constitutes good proof. Its all just (we hope) good natured discussion and opinion both ways. I have always wanted to start a thread called "Is the sky blue" and watch you guys battle it out!
Thinking about it, I do NOT think the CC claim is absurd. It may or may not be true, but its certainly a plausibe idea, at least to me. Arguing over it is just plain silly, as is adopting a high horse attitude that you "know better" than anyone else based on your individual knowledge. And I am not picking you out specifically, nor TMac. The Philly boys are guilty too. Hey, we are all guilty to a degree of the holier than thou attitude here.
Even yours truly......right now! ::)
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Jeff,
I am certainly having trouble communicating the past few days. Good to know I haven't lost my touch.
My point in this thread is not all that much different than yours. As you wrote, arguing over which was best course prior to 1936 is just plain silly, as is adopting a high horse attitude that you "know better" than anyone else based on your individual knowledge. But what you don't seem to understand is that the only one who has made such claim is Mike Cirba. (Phil the Author as well, but let's leave that aside. I never quite get his posts.)
For example, take Mikes latest pronouncement: Until 1930 (earlier it was the creation of Bethpage Black) COBBS WAS KNOWN AND ACKNOWLEDGED as the best and most difficult course in the country. That is not purely a matter of opinion, but a question of fact. WAS COBBS KNOWN AND ACKNOWLEDGED as the best? By whom? When? All he has offered is a 1916 NY article and and a 1925 article with a third-hand statement about someone liking Cobbs better than the NYC courses and some course in Dayton. That isn't reasonable proof of what he is claiming.
And Jeff, while I understand your desire to remain impartial, there is no lumping Tom MacWood in with Cirba this time. Tom's list is an evolving work in progress. He as added and subtracted names as his information has changed. He even had the nerve to choose not to include one of my suggestions for inclusion. While I may disagree, his choice is certainly reasonable and supportable. Mike's proclamations are neither.
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I agree that Mike Cirba's claim that Cobbs Creek was the best municipal or public course in the country prior to 1930 (or whatever other year you guys have argued over for about the last five pages) is not and cannot be used as a true statement of fact. It is just Mike's opinion obviously, and he has every right to have it as anyone else does about anything else.
However, I don't see that anyone else can actually PROVE that any other public course was better than Cobbs as a true statement of FACT either, from newspaper accounts or anyone else's opinion.
This entire issue just boils down to anyone's opinion, and there is nothing someone like Tom MacWood can do by his ongoing laundry list of public courses in these time frames to make it legitimately or provably (as a fact) otherwise.
So this time, and completely contrary to the over-arching debater on here, Moriarty, there most certainly is the actual and real ability in existence to lump MacWood in with Cirba or Cirba in with MacWood. ;)
Or to put this discussion into the context of the Rules of Golf and whether any particular Rule or Decision is right or wrong----I give you the inimitable, and highly intelligent and philosophically correct Rules expert, Lew Blakey, when I ask him, from time to time, if a Rule or Decision is right or wrong.
He always says; "Tommy, it is not a matter of just black and white and right or wrong; it is only a matter of which side of the argument or discussion gets enough votes to carry the decision of what to resolve, rule on and do."
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Moriarty:
That last paragraph in Post #284 is the perfect and frankly the ideal example of precisely WHY you are a transparently specious and fallacious reasoner. It is just so obvious but for the time being we should just wait for some other logical minds on here of the likes of Dan Kelly or Shivas to explain exactly why by taking that paragraph apart, parsing it and exposing its lack of logic! ;)
And when that is done and has been done hopefully everyone on here will recognize your MO and the technique you used to write and present that absurd essay on Merion East and Wilson entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion." ::)
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Mike:
That was quite the post you wrote there! It must have taken you quite a time to arrange.
But the following is most certainly worth commenting on and discussing on here in a cool and deliberate way because there is so much validity to it for what this particular website is and is supposed to be and perhaps NOT supposed to be (by the way, I had an excellent conversation earlier today with the inimitable Ran Morrissett about just these things and other things of importance on here);
(By the way, I told Ran, as I generally do when he calls that his lead-in on his telephone calls is definitely worth recording and perhaps highlighting for all time to come in some important repository and in an audio manner. In this day and age of things like "Call Identification" you can see it's him but invariably when you pick up the phone and say "Hello", there is this dramatic silence for 2-5 seconds and then comes the usual and stentorian and dramatically paced; "RAN.......MORRISSETT!" There is no preceding lead-in like, "Hi, how are you, this is Ran Morrissett"..... to it; it is always that dramatic pause and then the stentorian... "RAN....MORRISSETT!" What the FLUB is his actual first name anyway? Is It Randolph or Ranulph or is it actually just RAN? ;) What in the hell kind of name is RAN anyway? To me it sounds sort of like the PAST TENSE of somethng but if you know him that isn't indicative of who he is or the way he thinks. In the course of that conversation today we got into the subject of "original thought"....particularly original thought in GCA...the kind of thing that most can tell somebody didn't just borrow or glean from someone else but probably thought of all by themselves in and for some unknown or even ineffable reasons. We talked about the people who seem to have that, and have it where and how it actually makes sense to a lot of people somehow....people like Doak, or George Thomas, or a Mackenzie or a Geoff Shackelford. I suspect ....RAN....MORRISSETT ;) might have it too judging from some of the things he said today as well as in the past). (Actually, my good buddy, Pat Mucci, also has some "original thought" too but unfortunately it doesn't make a lot of sense to 98% of the human population even though the precentage may be a tad less in the Italian "neighborhoods" of Nort Jusee and Nu Yawk).
"There are no "facts" here.
There was no Golf Digest "Greatest 100 You Can Play" in 1930, and even if there were, it would be simply opinion.
Hell, 99% of what is on this website is opinion. Could it be any other way? Isn't that what a discussion group is about?
In "Frank discussion of golf courses", what else could it be? Are we to somehow prove our beliefs beyond some court-standard burden of proof, or then be subject to public insults, continued harassment, and constant name-calling by a trained lawyer? Is that what we want this forum to be??
Don't even get me started on the continued personal insults and attacks, all under the guise and supposed search for truth, openness, and the American Way regarding architectural history. What a crock.
I'd ask any of the antagonists here to name a truly public course that opened before 1930 that was better architecturally, and/or had greater respect among those who played public courses than Cobbs Creek."
Tomorrow, Big Fella; for as the eternally wise Scarlett O'Hara said; "For TOMORROW is ANOTHER day."
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Congratulations Mike!
After eight pages on this thread, another thread, and almost three weeks, you (Joe Bausch?) have finally found a single article that somewhat supports your claim. Never mind that you had absolutely no support for your statement when you first made it -- or even earlier today -- you finally have a reasonable basis for at least part of your opinion. If in the beginning you had said that in 1928 Frank McCracken of the Philadelphia Phactoid had claimed that Cobbs ranked as the finest public links in the land, then that would have been a reasonable basis for your claim, at least up to that point. Questionable and hyperbolic, but not asinine, because it had some at least with some sort of basis. Now if only you could only learn that the facts are supposed to come before the opinion, we'd be on to something.
Unfortunately things go immediately downhill from there. You wrote:
Unbelievably, even some guys from Los Angeles seemed to agree, which is just plain funny in this context.
Seriously? Read the article Mike. It isn't the Los Angeles golfers who said that Cobbs ranked best, it was the effusive McCracken. I guess you saw Los Angeles and just figured you would fill in the rest?
As for the rest of the articles, they are not reasonable support for your claim, for reasons previously given. In fact, the first McCracken article calls your support into question. Cobbs when from being one of the best, to the best. How did that happen? Are you related to Mr. McCracken?
By the way Mike, it is really bad form to continually post articles without providing the paper or date.
Finally, I'm not sure if it's a badge of honor or not, but I would venture to say that I've probably played more vintage municipal and public courses of that era than anyone in the world.
Here we go again! Obviously you've learned nothing by your past statements. Another asinine statement, even for you.
There are no "facts" here.
There was no Golf Digest "Greatest 100 You Can Play" in 1930, and even if there were, it would be simply opinion.
Hell, 99% of what is on this website is opinion. Could it be any other way? Isn't that what a discussion group is about?
In "Frank discussion of golf courses", which is the purpose of this website, what else could it be but personal opinion?
Some of us like to base our opinions on fact, but to each his own I guess.
I'd ask any of the antagonists here to name a truly public course that opened before 1930 that was better architecturally, and/or had greater respect among those who played public courses than Cobbs Creek.
So you've changed your claim again? It is hard to keep up.
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(by the way, I had an excellent conversation earlier today with the inimitable Ran Morrissett about just these things and other things of importance on here);
I hope you told him how you have again been harassing me via private email and how you are again trying to pressure me to leave the site, under threat of further harassment.
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Mike,
Really? I thought I was being honest and accurate.
-- Did you or did you not misread the article that supposedly had the Los Angeles players calling Cobbs the best?
-- Didn't McCracken puff Cobbs a bit more in the second piece than in the first? As you said, there were no rankings (at least none I am aware of) so what was he talking about in the second, except of course for his opinion?
-- Dont you agree that your claim to have played more old public courses than anyone on the world is more than a bit hyperbolic?
-- Don't you agree that the 1916 article and the others do not address your claim?
I have plenty of knowledge, personal and otherwise, about qualifying courses I think were probably at least as good as Cobbs. They were very possibly much better and more difficult than Cobbs, but that discussion would just be my opinion against yours. Plus, I'd have no basis for saying so with much conviction because I didn't play them at the time of your comparison.
Between the two of us, though, my guess is that I am the one with knowledge of Cobbs and the possible challengers I can think of. But such a discussion would be pointless. Who cares which course was hardest? Plus, your mind was made up before you even had your facts straight, so why would I think you'd give my opinion or its basis a fair shake?
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"Mike,
Really? I thought I was being honest and accurate."
Moriarty:
Are there any others on here you'd feel comfortable citing who subscribe to what your version of what 'honest and accurate' is?
Just wondering, but please don't feel constrained to have to actually answer that question, in case it might prove to be embarrassing to someone.
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Moriarty:
Are there any others on here you'd feel comfortable citing who subscribe to what your version of what 'honest and accurate' is?
Again TEPaul, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that honesty and accuracy are somehow beholden to the opinions of you and your cronies. Fortunately for those of us interested in the truth, that is not the case.
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Tom,
Why is the Tam O'Shanter Dales course on the list over the Hills course? As the Hills course opened in 1931? I have played both and they are a ton of fun on some wild undulating terrain?
Thanks,
Chris
Chris
I chose the Dales because it was the tougher (slightly) of the two, and the long time host of the Ohio Open. I thought about including both courses, but I thought I might be accused of being an Ohio homer.
Tom,
I have played both and I believe the Dales is a very good course and a solid assition to the list. I just wanted to know if you have any rationiale for including one over the other. I agree with this course a heck of a lot more than Ottawa Park.
On a side note, I played a 9 hole course in the area recently that I am positive is a Leanoard Macomber course - very similar greens, use of terrain and grassed in bunkering as the Hills and Dales at Tam O'Shanter. I have not had time to dig into it to find out more about it.
I am enjoying your researching of this list - keep up the good work!!! :)
Thanks,
Chris
The more I learn about Macomber the more I want to check out his courses. He was a disciple of Colt's. He travelled to the UK to be tutored by him and built one or two of HS's courses over here. By the way I played Belmont Hills last week and thought about you and your appreciation of Emmet.
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Here is an interesting picture of Split Rock.
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I've added Jackson Park in Seattle which had the reputation of being one of the top public courses in the West.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1928) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
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Tmac,
Seeing Tucker had designed Jackson Park, I know that he also designed Pioneers Park in Lincoln, NB. I think it opened in 1927 and was later expanded to 27 holes. It is on some really nice rolling property and a lot of great natural golf holes.
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Chris,
I like Brians new stuff a lot, but haven't played his redos in Ohio.
DM,
I agree in a way - no doubt MC is a homer! TMac has postulated what his opinons as to better courses were, sometimes just to keep the battle going (and he is not alone) It seems to have started with the argument over the "best year" to make the list, because he just couldn't let Mike have his thread ending at 1930. Shouldn't the author be allowed to pick a date for God Sake?
Under different circumstance, and without many feeling the need to elevate one over the other, his list of "Good Public Courses in the US pre 1936" is a nice accomplishment. I have enjoyed reading his research and old articles.
Jeff,
I like his new courses as well:
The Quarry GC, Canton, OH i
Windy Knoll GC, Springfield, OH
Deer Ridge GC Bellville, OH
Shale Creek GC Medina, OH
Firestone Farms , Colubiana, OH
are all very good courses.
Some of his renovation work I do not like as much like Ellsworth Meadows GC, etc
Thanks,
Chris
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Mike,
I disagree with all your responses above, but I did get quite a laugh. Not at you, more because after all this talking we are right where we always are . . . You with unshakeable and apparently sincere beliefs about things Philadelphia golf related and positive the facts are on your side; Me shaking my head and wondering how on earth you can write such things, let alone believe them.
For example: You think you have probably played more "vintage" public courses than anyone in the World. And the reason you believe this is because you don't know anyone who has played more old public courses than you.
I can't argue with that logic. Or at least I won't bother.
Good luck in your endeavors with Cobbs. As I have always said, I do think it is worth restoring, so long as it was done right.
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I've added Jackson Park in Seattle which had the reputation of being one of the top public courses in the West.
Would be curious to see where you read that....
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Tom M,
Would it be possible to include the location of the courses on your list?
PS - I think you hurt your argument when you include Hyde Park (Niagara Falls NY) in your list - if this is the same Hyde Park I'm thinking of. I grew up playing William Harries designs and they're not exactly Donald Ross quality!
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I've added Jackson Park in Seattle which had the reputation of being one of the top public courses in the West.
Would be curious to see where you read that....
I found this in The Golf Course Guide written by Anthony Merrill.
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Tom M,
Would it be possible to include the location of the courses on your list?
PS - I think you hurt your argument when you include Hyde Park (Niagara Falls NY) in your list - if this is the same Hyde Park I'm thinking of. I grew up playing William Harries designs and they're not exactly Donald Ross quality!
Hugh Wilson ain't exactly Donald Ross either. I don't know about the other Harries courses, but Hyde Park had a very good reputation back in the day. I reckon something happened to the course over the years....I do know William & David Gordon redesigned the golf course in the 60s.
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"Hugh Wilson ain't exactly Donald Ross either."
Maybe he wasn't in your mind; particularly since Wilson always had another day job that was not golf architecture, but Hugh Wilson was the architect of Merion East and I sure doubt Ross would not have loved to have that great course attributed to him as part of his career inventory! ;)
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"Hugh Wilson ain't exactly Donald Ross either."
Maybe he wasn't in your mind; particularly since Wilson always had another day job that was not golf architecture, but Hugh Wilson was the architect of Merion East and I sure doubt Ross would not have loved to have that great course attributed to him as part of his career inventory! ;)
Was that the same Hugh Wilson who was involved with Seaview? If I'm not mistaken Ross overhauled that course a year or two after it opened.
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William Harries also gave us Brighton Park, Sheridan Park, and Beaver Island. He's known to me as the muni architect for metro-Buffalo. His work is fair at best. I grew up playing all three - Sheridan's the by far best of the lot, but it's really not a course that you would ever want to go out of your way to play. (I love it for sentimental reasons)
Hyde Park a City of Niagara Falls course, is definitely nothing special. The best public up there is Whirlpool, a Stanley Thompson design on the Ontario side.
To quote from Ron Montesano from another thread (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41814.msg888879/topicseen/#msg888879):
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 09:57:09 »
Quote
I volunteer William Harries' slanted inverted bowl greens...found on many munis in western New York, they are devoid of any subtlety, break, and interest...See Brighton Park, Beaver Island and Audubon.
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Dan
Shouldn't you revise your statement to Hyde Park is nothing special today?
I know very little about Harries, but apparently his career is separated into two phases: a 1920s/30s phase and a 1960s phase when he worked for someone named Tryon.
Here is an advertisement from 1920. H&H built Cherry Hill for Travis and Park CC for Alison.
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Actually, the whole question of Donald Ross and Philadelphia is probably a pretty interesting one, particularly early on. My own club, GMGC, just might be a fairly important part in that story.
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"If I'm not mistaken Ross overhauled that course a year or two after it opened."
Overhauled it? That's an interesting interpretation. I think what he actually did is add some bunkering that had not been done early on which seemed to be something of an MO of Wilson's and later Flynn's if and when the opportunity to do it that way presented itself as it had at Merion East.
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Dan
Shouldn't you revise your statement to Hyde Park is nothing special today?
I know very little about Harries, but apparently his career is separated into two phases: a 1920s/30s phase and a 1960s phase when he worked for someone named Tryon.
Here is an advertisement from 1920. H&H built Cherry Hill for Travis and Park CC for Alison.
Tom,
I played 9 holes on a Harries designed course (I believe Shorewood) built in the 20's and found the holes to have strategic bunkering (albeit grassed in). The greens were raised / built up almost reminded me of something Banks or Raynor would construct. There were 9 others holes added by the club pro taht were very forgetable.
Chris
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Tom,
The builder of the course (H & H) wasn't the architect. Harries is credited as the architect for Hyde Park, and my point is that Harries designed courses would probably be a 2 on the Doak scale. Sheridan Park might be a 4 on a good day.
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Dan
H&H was a landscape architecture firm that was involved in construction and design in the 1920s and 1930s.
What would have Hyde Park gotten on the Doak scale 80 years ago in 1930...in other words do you know how good (or bad) the course was in 1930?
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Dan, I think what TomM is saying is that we cannot necessarily judge the quality of these courses in based upon playing them decades many decades after the relevant time period. At least not without understanding their history. [I see now he just said it himself. Sorry for the redundancy.]
That being said, Ron Montesano's description of what you think are Harries greens reminded my of CBM's "pie faced woman with a marvel wave" description in Scotland's Gift.
. . . they are all built similarly, more or less of a bowl or saucer type, then built up toward the back of the green, and then scalloped with an irregular line of low, waving mounds or hillocks, the putting green for all the world resemling a pie-faced woman with a marcel wave. I do not believe any one ever saw in nature anything approaching these home-made putting greens. . .
If that was Harries' style, I wonder if he built any courses along the way to Southhampton? (I guess CBM doesn't say where he was coming from; it seems unlikely, but given CBM's connection to the Niagarra area maybe he was referring to the drive to Southhampton from there. Nah.)
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Tom Mac,
A couple of serious questions. You state that you believe that "Jackson Park in Seattle which had the reputation of being one of the top public courses in the West" based upon what you found "in The Golf Course Guide written by Anthony Merrill."
Is this the ONLY contemporaneous information that leads you to your conclusion?
I can understand you being in agreement with the writer based simply on what was written there, yet it makes one then wonder why you qustion Mike having reached his conclusions based on the number of different articles he has posted praising Cobb's Creek? For example, in his post #287 he has posted 4 different articles where people from New York to Los Angeles praise the course, one of which includes the following:
"Two courageous Californians were among the late arrivals yesterday afternoon, and after taking a first glance ast the pretentious Cobbs Creek layout, which ranks as the finest public course in the land, they expressed their admiration... Many of the visitors stated that they had not expected to see a course of such attractiveness as Cobb's Creek. Some of them are frank enough to confess that the many hazards on the links and its natural beauty almost took their breathe away..."
What is it about Mr. Merrill that gives greater veracity in your mind to the believability in what he wrote in the single advertisement than to what McCracken and a number of others wrote in many articles and containing quotes of praise from golfers across the country or the article which copied one from the Brooklyn Eagle in which the question "Would you call the Philadelphia course better than the two links at Van Cortland, the long course at Pelham Bay or the City Links of Chicago at Jackson Park?" was asked and answered leaving no doubt that the writer considered Cobb's Creek far superior to all of them?
Why should one give greater credence to your conclusion about the quality of the Jackson Park course in Seattle which seems to be based solely upon what is written in the singular advertisement than what Mike has presented about Cobb's Creek from numerous different sources? Especially as you seem to keep ignoring these postings and not commenting on them.
Don't you think that it is time that you simply stated that you can recognize how Mike MIGHT conclude what he has but that you simply disagree with his conclusions?
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Philip, Amen!
Basing research on an ad is risky at best. For example, I just Google'd "Championship Golf Course" and got about 350,000 hits. "5-star golf course" got 1,300,000 hits.
I also think David and Tom would make their point better if they would have chosen genuinely good courses. I'm 50 years old and grew up 9 miles from Niagara. I've never heard good things about Hyde Park, yet you note it as a design of note. And trust me, to play a Harries is to know a Doak 2 ("A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. As my friend Dave Richards summed up: “Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer.”")
I'm 100% convinced that Mike is correct - CC was an exceptionally well-regarded course -the Bethpage or Torrey Pines of its day. I base my conclusion on my reading of Mike's findings.
PS - I'm not anti-West. I completely enjoyed living in Beaverton, OR from 1985--1993. And the inclusion of Eastmoreland is definitely deserved.
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"Why should one give greater credence to your conclusion about the quality of the Jackson Park course in Seattle which seems to be based solely upon what is written in the singular advertisement than what Mike has presented about Cobb's Creek from numerous different sources? Especially as you seem to keep ignoring these postings and not commenting on them."
Phil:
I'll tell you why MacWood thinks that as well as why he keeps ignoring those other postings and not commentig on them. It's because Tom MacWood found that irrelevent blurb by Merrill and Philadelphia researchers found all those other articles from different sources about Cobbs Creek.
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Phil-the-author
No, its not the only information that leads me to that conclusion. This little blurb is from A Guide to 1,870 North American Golf Courses written by Harold Pond. Pond produced the first version of Doak's Confidential Guide several decades earlier and rated the private, semi-private and public golf courses in America based on his own rating system. He gave grades of A, B, C, D, and E along with + and -. A+ being the best of the best. As an example he gave Bethpage Black an A+ and the Blue and the Red an A.
I've also attached the info from the 1930 Golf Course Guide for those who get freaked out by yardages under 6000.
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Philip, Amen!
Basing research on an ad is risky at best. For example, I just Google'd "Championship Golf Course" and got about 350,000 hits. "5-star golf course" got 1,300,000 hits.
I also think David and Tom would make their point better if they would have chosen genuinely good courses. I'm 50 years old and grew up 9 miles from Niagara. I've never heard good things about Hyde Park, yet you note it as a design of note. And trust me, to play a Harries is to know a Doak 2 ("A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. As my friend Dave Richards summed up: “Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer.”")
I'm 100% convinced that Mike is correct - CC was an exceptionally well-regarded course -the Bethpage or Torrey Pines of its day. I base my conclusion on my reading of Mike's findings.
PS - I'm not anti-West. I completely enjoyed living in Beaverton, OR from 1985--1993. And the inclusion of Eastmoreland is definitely deserved.
I'm glad you enjoyed Beaverton. How good was Hyde Park in 1930?
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Why should one give greater credence to your conclusion about the quality of the Jackson Park course in Seattle which seems to be based solely upon what is written in the singular advertisement than what Mike has presented about Cobb's Creek from numerous different sources? Especially as you seem to keep ignoring these postings and not commenting on them.
Don't you think that it is time that you simply stated that you can recognize how Mike MIGHT conclude what he has but that you simply disagree with his conclusions?
Phil-the-author
With Mike's articles its difficult to know what the writer's level of experience and expertise may have been. The mention of a mediocre course (Van Cortland Park) as a guide for comparison I think says a lot. With Merrill and Pond you know what courses they have played and seen (hundreds if not thousands from coast to coast) and based on their comments about all sorts of courses it is fairly easy to appreciate their level of expertise.
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MacWood's MO on here is getting more revealing frankly. I see he just tries to avoid anything I say to him or ask him on here or off here by IM or email. ;)
His new philosophy seems to be just to avoid it all or ignore it altogether.
Can't say I blame him really, as, at this point, he just apparently ain't got the guts or the response, research and particularly analytical capability to deal with it.
This is what I frankly have been hoping for on here for some time now and I am quite happy that time has apparently come. I think the marginalizing of the crap fostered and foisted on here by the likes of MacWood and Moriarty for too long is an important thing to concentrate on for a website like this.
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TEP
I'm not sure if I've thanked you before or not, but I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for lending so much substance to this thread. I think everyone appreciates your level of expertise.
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Tom, what rating did Pond give Cobb's Creek?
I could be wrong but if he had been critical of the course in any way I believe that you would already have posted it as you value his opinion so highly.
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Tom,
You reasoned, "With Mike's articles its difficult to know what the writer's level of experience and expertise may have been. The mention of a mediocre course (Van Cortland Park) as a guide for comparison I think says a lot. With Merrill and Pond you know what courses they have played and seen (hundreds if not thousands from coast to coast) and based on their comments about all sorts of courses it is fairly easy to appreciate their level of expertise."
What difference does McCracken's of Philadelphia and the other writer's outside of Philly that Mike quoted from matter as to their experience of play when they are QUOTING those who have and are playing courses all over the country and are competing in tournaments such as the Publick Links championships and stating that Cobb's is among the best and some who say it is the best?
Isn't it really their credibility that matters?
Also, the ability to play well doesn't automatically enable one to understand the quality of golf course architecture otherwise nor does it prevent the poorer player from being able to design a great course. There have been some of those...
Actually, your statement, "With Merrill and Pond you know what courses they have played and seen (hundreds if not thousands from coast to coast) and based on their comments about all sorts of courses it is fairly easy to appreciate their level of expertise" flies in the face of the many golf course raters of today who play hundreds, and in the case of some like Matt Ward, possibly thousands, and yet are constantly having their "comments [reviews] about all sorts of courses" disagreed with and criticized.
So, what it boils down to is that you trust the opinions of certain ones from that time while Mike trusts the opinions of others.
So then, once again, don't you think that it is time that you simply stated that you can recognize how Mike MIGHT conclude what he has but that you simply disagree with his conclusions?
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"TEP
I'm not sure if I've thanked you before or not, but I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for lending so much substance to this thread. I think everyone appreciates your level of expertise."
Tom MacWood:
That has become one of your many standard responses over the years to those on here who at this point have become a vast majority, if perhaps not yet a total 100% consensus.
Your other usual responses to people on here rather than actually trying to answer their questions intelligently or factually, apparently because you obviously can't, are;
1. I don't understand the question
2. Why are you being so defensive
3. Or to just ask another deflective question in response to a legitimate question to you which apparently you aren't prepared to answer for pretty obvious reasons.
Your a total joke these days, MacWood, and even in your reseach, which you think is all about quantity, no matter how irrelevant and trivial vs quality, compared to contributors like Cirba and the contributions he provides.
My interest on here these days with you is simply to minimize and expose your ridiculous self-promoting MO which is evidenced by your on-going contributions to this thread which are incredibly weak, to say the least, and continuing in that direction.
I can't see there are two to three people left on this website or anyhere else who support or believe in you anymore or accept much of anything to do with your golf architecture reserach and analysis! Unfortunately for you one who still seems to support you is David Moriarty who is frankly worse than you, in this vein, with even less currency out there with a club such as Merion probably because of the fact you actually tried to separate yourself and divorce yourself from him and his absurd essay on Merion when you tried to create an access opportunity for yourself with that club while stupidly trying to cc some members of it to apparenly embarrass other members.
Essentially, you have become a poster boy for how not to do research and analysis with architectural history and with significant clubs. At least that in and of itself may be a valuable contribution on your part for us all in what NOT to do.
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Phil the Author,
I don't see the double standard. Surely the article doesn't conclusively establish that Cobb's was the best and hardest in the country, does it? If not, then just what is it exactly that you expect TomM to accept?
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Dan Herrman,
It isn't my list. But the listed courses with which I am familiar were considered were considered to be very good.
I'm 100% convinced that Mike is correct - CC was an exceptionally well-regarded course -the Bethpage or Torrey Pines of its day. I base my conclusion on my reading of Mike's findings.
That is NOT Mike's claim. Mike claimed Cobbs was the best and hardest public course in the land.
-- Are you 100% convinced that Cobbs Creek was the best and hardest public course in the land?
-- Do "Mike's findings" establish that Cobbs was the best and hardest public course in the land.
Say, for example, do "Mike's findings" conclusively establish that Cobbs was better than both courses at Sunset Fields? Griffith Park? Brookside? Harding Park? The 1930 version of Eastmoreland? Every other public course in the land?
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Tom, what rating did Pond give Cobb's Creek?
I could be wrong but if he had been critical of the course in any way I believe that you would already have posted it as you value his opinion so highly.
Phil-the-author
Neither Pond not Merrill bothered to play the golf course, which says something in itself. I reckon the bloom was off the rose by then, that is if the bloom was ever there.
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What difference does McCracken's of Philadelphia and the other writer's outside of Philly that Mike quoted from matter as to their experience of play when they are QUOTING those who have and are playing courses all over the country and are competing in tournaments such as the Publick Links championships and stating that Cobb's is among the best and some who say it is the best?
Isn't it really their credibility that matters?
Also, the ability to play well doesn't automatically enable one to understand the quality of golf course architecture otherwise nor does it prevent the poorer player from being able to design a great course. There have been some of those...
Actually, your statement, "With Merrill and Pond you know what courses they have played and seen (hundreds if not thousands from coast to coast) and based on their comments about all sorts of courses it is fairly easy to appreciate their level of expertise" flies in the face of the many golf course raters of today who play hundreds, and in the case of some like Matt Ward, possibly thousands, and yet are constantly having their "comments [reviews] about all sorts of courses" disagreed with and criticized.
So, what it boils down to is that you trust the opinions of certain ones from that time while Mike trusts the opinions of others.
So then, once again, don't you think that it is time that you simply stated that you can recognize how Mike MIGHT conclude what he has but that you simply disagree with his conclusions?
What exactly do Mike's articles say that I'm not accepting?
If you've only played a few public courses in a couple of cities you are not qualified to judge which are the best public courses in America IMO. What public courses had they seen? Van Cortland Park? Hardly the gold standard at the time.
I'm not talking about golfing ability when I speak of experience and expertise. I'm talking about experience as in playing courses from all over the country, and expertise as in showing an ability to recognize quality designs.
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Tom,
You stated, "Neither Pond not Merrill bothered to play the golf course, which says something in itself..."
All it SAYS is that they hadn't played the course. It certainly doesn't intimate anything about the quality of the golf course as you seem to be implying. For example, I've been to St. Andrews, Scotland, on two week-long occasions. I never played the Old Course. What can someone imply from hearing that? Not a damn thing.
Your conclusion is wrong... of course that is my OPINION, just as it is nothing more than your OPINION that you've drawn the correct one. THAT is what you are not accepting about Mike's articles and how they convince him of his belief.
By the way, you describe Merrill and Pond thusly, "I'm not talking about golfing ability when I speak of experience and expertise. I'm talking about experience as in playing courses from all over the country, and expertise as in showing an ability to recognize quality designs..." so how does Merrill show a superior "expertise" and "ability to recognize quality designs" in what he wrote about Jackson Park?
He wrote, "This course has the REPUTATION..." REPUTATION, not "I CONSIDER" or "FROM PLAYING IT I AM CONVINCED," no he QUOTED FROM OTHERS just as McCracken and the other writers that Mike quoted from did.
Are you trying to imply that those whose comments, MADE BY OTHERS, which stated that "This course has the reputation of being one of the finest municipals in the West" were made by FAR more experienced players who had a BETTER expertise and ability to recognize quality designs than the players quoted from in the articles that Mike has presented.
The absurdity of that would be off the silly meter.
Tom, what I maintain is simple. Both you and Mike have made statements of OPINION that you base on information that you each accept as FACT from various newspaper accounts, etc...
For you to simply state that you can understand how Mike has COME to his conclusions even though you DISAGREE with them is only reasonable after what you have posted and to not do so quite disingenuous... in my opinion of course...
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Tom,
You stated, "Neither Pond not Merrill bothered to play the golf course, which says something in itself..."
All it SAYS is that they hadn't played the course. It certainly doesn't intimate anything about the quality of the golf course as you seem to be implying. For example, I've been to St. Andrews, Scotland, on two week-long occasions. I never played the Old Course. What can someone imply from hearing that? Not a damn thing.
Your conclusion is wrong... of course that is my OPINION, just as it is nothing more than your OPINION that you've drawn the correct one. THAT is what you are not accepting about Mike's articles and how they convince him of his belief.
By the way, you describe Merrill and Pond thusly, "I'm not talking about golfing ability when I speak of experience and expertise. I'm talking about experience as in playing courses from all over the country, and expertise as in showing an ability to recognize quality designs..." so how does Merrill show a superior "expertise" and "ability to recognize quality designs" in what he wrote about Jackson Park?
He wrote, "This course has the REPUTATION..." REPUTATION, not "I CONSIDER" or "FROM PLAYING IT I AM CONVINCED," no he QUOTED FROM OTHERS just as McCracken and the other writers that Mike quoted from did.
Are you trying to imply that those whose comments, MADE BY OTHERS, which stated that "This course has the reputation of being one of the finest municipals in the West" were made by FAR more experienced players who had a BETTER expertise and ability to recognize quality designs than the players quoted from in the articles that Mike has presented.
The absurdity of that would be off the silly meter.
Tom, what I maintain is simple. Both you and Mike have made statements of OPINION that you base on information that you each accept as FACT from various newspaper accounts, etc...
For you to simply state that you can understand how Mike has COME to his conclusions even though you DISAGREE with them is only reasonable after what you have posted and to not do so quite disingenuous... in my opinion of course...
That is your interpretation...IMO it does say something about CC.
What exactly do Mike's articles say that I'm not accepting? What public courses had they seen?
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Tom,
Now you are simply ignoring what I have written. You know EXACTLY what those articles state. All you have to do is read them again if you've forgotten them.
"What public courses had they seen?" That is also an absurd question and you know it.
Why do you avoid reasonable questions? For example, you ignored or avoided or refuse to answer these two:
"Are you trying to imply that those whose comments, MADE BY OTHERS, which stated that "This course has the reputation of being one of the finest municipals in the West" were made by FAR more experienced players who had a BETTER expertise and ability to recognize quality designs than the players quoted from in the articles that Mike has presented?"
More importantly, despite, once again, asking NUMEROUS TIMES, you simply will not even acknowledge the question, no less answer it, when I ask, "So then, once again, don't you think that it is time that you simply stated that you can recognize how Mike MIGHT conclude what he has but that you simply disagree with his conclusions?"
When you answer those two I'll give you very detailed and specific answers to your two questions to me, "What exactly do Mike's articles say that I'm not accepting? What public courses had they seen?"
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Did Pond and Merrill claim to play all the courses they rated? I ask because Merrill's blurb doesn't sound to be based on first-person experience.
Pond did and he listed his score. I'm not sure about Merrill. When I get little time later I'll find what they said about Rock Manor and East Potomac pass it along.
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Phil-the-author
I've read them. You tell me what they say that I'm not accepting or move along.
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I don't know where they were based. Pond's book was published in 1954 and Merrill's in 1950.
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Tom,
You must enjoy your arrogance... "I've read them. You tell me what they say that I'm not accepting or move along."
You simply refuse to ask or even acknowledge reasonable questions as if your continued ignoring of them is proof that you are correct.
I will answer your question along with the other one you posed ONLY when you have answered the two that I have asked of you NUMEROUS times. I already stated that.
Do that or maybe YOU should move along...
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I've changed the title of this thread to better reflect the discussion.
I am surprised you didn't retitle it "Tom MacWood's #@**&^#** List of Public Golf Course Thru Bethpage".
I am trying to stay out of this one. I will agree with Tmac that any claim of the "best of the best" is arguable, but note that they are arguing more because its you than out of any real concern for truth, justice and the American way!
I am interested in who these guys were, writing travel books in the 50's, given TM's reliance on them. Again, my take is a little different than his. I think they wanted a comprehensive book, but didn't necessarily have time to travel before deadline, and thus, relied on outside reports for some courses. I don't see how TMac can conclusively draw the opinion that they didn't play because it wasn't good. I mean, is there anyone here who is going to claim Cobbs Creek IS NOT a good public course in design terms?
I think his basic logic of relying on writings 25 years later is flawed. At least, when the Merion guys relied on a club history published that long after the fact, he and DM thrashed the veracity of that soundly, did they not? And yet......here is he using later documents to trump your first hand accounts from good players in national championship qualifiers, etc.
Of course, we have seen these Terrier like tendencies out of Tom before, and we have seen some stretches of logic, too. For instance, how do train schedules tell us about CC and its status in the world? The only consistencies I see are that he likes to argue needlessly with Phillly guys (and to be fair, vice versa) It would seem to most that you could admit CC was a very good course, and possibly the best, and certainly one of the best, and he could admit the same. Either that, or pull out the rulers, measure your penis' and we will solve this that way.
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Jeff,
As I do not have a copy of either "A Guide to 1,870 North American Golf Courses" written by Harold Pond or "The Golf Course Guide" written by Anthony Merrill I have simply taken on good faith that these were CONTEMPORANEOUS documents to the 1915-30 timeframe.
You stated, "I am interested in who these guys were, writing travel books in the 50's, given TM's reliance on them... I think his basic logic of relying on writings 25 years later is flawed."
Are you aying that these two works that Tom is quoting from as PROOF that Cobb's Creek was not considered among the best municipal golf courses in the country from 1920-1930 were written in the 1950's?
If that is the case Tom has gone well beyond disingenuous to downright hypocritical. I am hoping that I have read what you wrote incorrectly...
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I mean, is there anyone here who is going to claim Cobbs Creek IS NOT a good public course in design terms?
Let's start out with the disclaimer! ;)
I am a former Philly kid now living in New York. My home course for high school Friday matches and practices was Cobbs Creek. I doubt there is anyone here who has played the course more than me, but I have not played it in 25 years.
I have seen the old design here (I did not play it) and it does not change some basic design issues at Cobb's:
1. The holes along the creek are interesting, but they have always had drainage/washout issues. Strategic design is not my point as they are interesting. Jeff Brauer, you tell me is it good design to have a public course with these types of issues?
2. The old routing and bunkering was obviously more interesting, but it does not change the fact that Cobbs away from the creek holes (most of the now back 9) is one big gigantic hill that is not rolling or unique terrain, IMHO.
I have not followed this thread closely but I would put the potential of Pelham and Split Rock in the Bronx at much higher than Cobbs. They may have been private at one time which may disqualify them and Split Rock came later.
Signing off for the day! :D
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"I think his basic logic of relying on writings 25 years later is flawed. At least, when the Merion guys relied on a club history published that long after the fact, he and DM thrashed the veracity of that soundly, did they not? And yet......here is he using later documents to trump your first hand accounts from good players in national championship qualifiers, etc."
Mr Jeffrey Sir:
I think it would be more accurate for you to say MacWood and Moriarty TRIED to thrash the veracity soundly of the latest Merion history book but what in actual fact did they find in it that was historically inaccurate?
The only thing I'm aware of that was historically inaccurate in that history book was the mention that Wilson went abroad in 1910 and not 1912 when he actually did go abroad. However, that history book or the former one by the same author also mentioned that rumor that had always been around Merion that Wilson also almost sailed on the Titanic and the book mentioned that that was interesting since the Titanic maiden voyage was almost two years AFTER they mentioned Wilson went abroad. So the truth was that that story was in fact not a rumor and that he did almost sail from France on the Titanic. Luckily, for him, he delayed his return by a few weeks for reasons we are not aware of.
Moriarty in his usual logic and fact distorting way, and with MacWood's assistance, apparently used that single mistaken fact in that Merion history book as some kind of building block to go on to create the perception that Merion's architectural history back then was all wrong by creating premises and assumptions and then conclusions that numerous other things about Merion's history were wrong as well such as that later trip proved that Wilson and his committee could not have routed and designed that course in 1911.
His initial fallacious premise to that effect proved nothing of the kind. He even tried to use the perception that Wilson and committee could not have done it on their own because the story at Merion HAD ALWAYS BEEN that he had to go abroad and do drawings and such BEFORE he began to route and design the course. THAT story was NOT around Merion back then. Matter of fact, THAT story did not crop up until about a half century AFTER Wilson and his committee routed and designed that course in 1911 and then later went abroad in 1910.
That history book also included the fact that Macdonald and Whigam lent some help and advice to Merion back in those two early years; a fact that Tom MacWood did not seem to realize when he started a thread on here in 2003 ("Re: Macdonald and Merion?") that included some articles he had found that mentioned Macdonald and Whigam had lent their support. Apparently MacWood thought he had discovered something that Merion never knew and never acknowledged, and thereby must have minimized Macdonald's contribution apparently for the purpose of inaccurately glorifying Wilson's contribution. That was not true either----they always acknowledge Macdonald's contribution; matter of fact their contemporaneous meeting minutes back then (1910 and 1911) comprehensively reflect that.
Those two birds didn't soundly thrash the veracity of Merion's recorded history at all---even if they still try and make people think they did somehow. And that is precisely why Merion and anyone around it who really do know the facts of the history of Merion saw right through that absurd IMO piece of Moriarty's entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion." ???
Of course MacWood, seemingly on his own, even tried to take the thing a step further into absurdity by suggesting that HH Barker must have routed and designed Merion East rather than Wilson and his committee. ::)
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Mike Cirba:
Some months ago while down at the Old White at the Greenbriar with Richmond architect Lester George, he made an interesting observation which perhaps should be noted as a comparison of Macdonald's and Raynor's career in architecture with Hugh Wilson's career and his architectural friends in Philadelphia.
Lester, who had restored Macdonald/Raynor's Old White, wondered if Macdonald and particularly Raynor in his career of more course projects than Macdonald had ever got involved in any public or municipal golf course project.
I told him that I'm not aware of any but I will leave that question and its answer to the rest of you good to expert GCA researchers. ;)
PS:
I have heard there was some correspondence that once was floating around the Metropolitan Golf Association of New York that the MET once asked C.B. if he and his friends and his engineer architect would like to get involved in doing a municipal course that could enure to the benefit of the public and the common golfer of New York with no private club affiliation and C.B.'s response was; "Let THEM eat cake."
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I don't know where they were based. Pond's book was published in 1954 and Merrill's in 1950.
Tom,
I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to my original point?
Jackson Park opened in 1930, correct?
Ponds and Merrill's books were published 20 years later and 24 years later, respectively.
I'm sure they are very interesting tomes and I'd love to read them someday, but I can't see the relevance to disputing my point about how well-regarded Cobb's Creek was from inception in 1916 until the Depression.
Lots of stuff happened after the Market Crash, some of it good for public golf, some of it not-so-good.
In any case, it was a real delimiter in golf once the world economy hit the skids.
In any case, I'm not sure you can read anything into their omission of Cobb's Creek, right?
If they were from out of town, wouldn't they do they typical thing of trying to hit the best privates if they visited Philly, and try to line up a dance card of Merion, PV, Philly Country, Philly Cricket, HVGC, etc??
What courses did each rate in the Philly area?
I'm not sure what the relevance of the 1930 date for Jackson Park may be. No doubt it took years for these men to play and see all these courses, just as it took years for you to see and play the courses you've experienced. We don't know when they may have played the course other than it was some time between 1930 and 1950 or 1954, and obviously it was not during the War years, but whatever the case twenty years is a relatively short window of time. The one thing they both have in common, they were both high on the golf course.
As far as CC is concerned like I said it would appear the bloom was off the rose if it was ever on the rose. Conceivably they could have played CC in the 20s, 30s, 40s or 50s, but for whatever reason they chose not to.
Pond played Aronomink, Gulph Mills, Llanerch, Merion-East, Overbrook, Philadelphia Bala & Spring Mill, Rolling Green, PV, and Springhaven. Merrill profiled Saucon Valley, Lancaster, Jeffersonville, Llanerch, Merion-East, Philadelphia Spring Mill, Seaview, Atlantic City, Pine Valley, Torresdale-Frankfort.
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Tom M,
What was your rationale for the list of courses you provided in post 296?
You failed if you tried to prove that CC wasn't one of the top public courses by evidencing that list. That list, if anything, hurts your argument, IMHO.
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"I am a former Philly kid now living in New York."
Well, in that case, Michael, you should be considered an expatriate and even a heretic!
I am a former New York kid now living in Philly and I guarantee you that is the right and true direction to go in if one ever wants to reach the sunlit uplands of life.
However, when I once told my ultra New Yorker stepmother I was moving to Philadelphia she said: "Oh my God, poor thing, you are moving to the boondocks where they do unimaginable things like wear colored trousers with tuxedo jackets and refuse to stand up for toasts at debutante parties."
And personally I think Cobbs Creek is not only the best public course in the country, it's probably the best in the universe and that includes that thing in New York they call Bethpage Black. What kind of architecture is that anyway? It was done by some third tier municipal employee by the name of Burbeck! ::)
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Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
Dan
This list? You are entitled to your opinion. The reasoning behind the list was to show the depth and breadth of very good public golf courses in America during the period in question, and to show how ridiculous Mike's claim was.
Do you think Cobbs Creek was a better and more difficult course than Opa Locka, Sharp Park, Sunset Fields, Belvedere or Starmount Forest? I don't. In fact I think CC would be lucky to make it into the middle of this pack.
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::sigh::
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"The reasoning behind the list was to show the depth and breadth of very good public golf courses in America during the period in question, and to show how ridiculous Mike's claim was.
Do you think Cobbs Creek was a better and more difficult course than Opa Locka, Sharp Park, Sunset Fields, Belvedere or Starmount Forest? I don't. In fact I think CC would be lucky to make it into the middle of this pack."
THAT is still JUST your opinion, Bucko, and unfortunately for you, your opinion has depreciated considerably and continues to! ;)
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Actually all this endless jabbering on both sides of the debate is ridiculous and irrelevent as anyone of real architectural sophistication knows that Fernandina Beach Municipal, by the phenonenal Timucuan Indian architect, Tommy Birdsong, is the best public golf course ever done in any era.
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For the record, what I said, which continues to get twisted and misrepresented, is that before the Depression (pre 1930) and the subsequent creation of Bethpage, many observers felt that Cobb's Creek was the best and most demanding public course in the country. I think the facts support that statement, and the articles I posted from the New York and Philly papers, and the opinion of the leading public course player and former US Publinks champion all support that contention.
". . . many observers felt . . .?" For the record, that is NOT what you said. Plus, one does not "many" make.
As for your 36/30 switcharoo, I suggest you review posts 90 and 91, where PPallotta asked: "Would the courses that the USGA picked to host the Publinx Championship during these years give us any indication of what courses were considered amongst the best of their day?"
You answered: "That's a great question. Here are the years in question." You then listed the publinks winners to 1936.
Funny how your "years in question" went to 1936 early in the thread, but not now.
No one yet has cited any other public course in that era having the same cache', nor despite what I'm sure has been exhaustive research have we seen an article making the same type of claims about any other public courses, although I'm sure that statement might lead to another spin thru newspaperarchive.com.
You are wrong again. It would be easy enough find comparable articles about other courses. (I probably have some in files somewhere.) But I am not interested in debating which public course was the best or hardest, and I know to take assessments for the local paper with a grain of salt. I find the whole idea of you claim absurd unless I could back it up with a comprehensive survey of ALL the contenders, and even then it would just be a matter of opinion. That is what I said in my second post on this thread, and what I still believe.
I don't have the knowledge base to put together a comprehensive survey. For example, my list would be West Coast centric and of those I couldn't pick an absolute best even in the West. And although the Mid-West reportedly emerged as the real leader in public golf during this period, I could not do that region justice.
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More info on Tommy Birdsong (a real hero): http://peoplelikeusdublinlaurens.blogspot.com/2009/08/tommy-birdsong.html
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Mike
Dayton? If we were rate these courses on quality do you believe Dayton would be near the top of the list?
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
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Dan, Thanks for the link. Nice to have some reality to offset TEPaul's repeated snarky posts and references.
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Mike Cirba,
Go ahead and explain all that to Mike Cirba, who, in post 91, identified the courses in question as running to 1936, which is probably a pretty accurate date for when the WPA courses started to come online.
As for the opinion of this one guy, that would bring your total to two (which still does not many make), except for the fact that he certainly can't speak to any of the many courses built after 1925 and we have no idea where he had played before this, except for the few he mentions. Did he play on the West Coast? The Publinks didn't make it out there until 1933.
An aside. It is generally a good idea to take reports coming from New Yorkers about New York Municipal golf with a grain of salt during this era. They reportedly had a running battle going with the City about the quality and conditions of the NY munis. The courses reportedly ran at a surplus, but the money did not come back to the courses, even when the rates were jacked up to $10 dollars.
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Mike
You really like beating that dead horse don't you?
I made a mistake with Harding Park as I have admitted about five times now; I did not a make mistake with the Red and Black.
Here is a link from the USGA as to which courses have hosted the event and it clearly says Bethpage-Blue. The Red and Black have never hosted the event. Other courses that have never hosted the USGA Public Links: George Wright, Starmount Forest, Swope Park, Memorial Park, Taconic, Patty Jewett, BeaverTail, Mill Creek and Bayside.
http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/USGAHome/press_room/media_guide/06APL(2).pdf
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Nice try Mike, but it is you who is misrepresenting what you stated. Your identification of the years in question in post 91 had absolutely nothing to do with Tom MacWood. It was in response to Peter's question and in that response you identified the years in question.
As for Walsh, that would be no more unreasonable than assuming he was knowledgeable about every public in the country, including those not yet built.
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Mike
Dayton? If we were rate these courses on quality do you believe Dayton would be near the top of the list?
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
Does anybody else get the impression that this list of worthy publics is impossibly long? I for one am not buying that anywhere near all of these courses were considered exceptional unless we are talking some sort of mystical "its okay because its public" PoV. I can point to Rackham as an example. Yes, it hosted a Publinx, but I would be wholly surprsied if it was considered a top 7 course in Metro Detroit in 1930 and there weren't 7 really good courses in Detroit in 1930.
Ciao
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"Mike
You really like beating that dead horse don't you?"
Tom MacWood:
You should talk! The only one on this website who likes beating this dead horse more than you do is your twin-ego Moriarty.
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Mike
Speaking of Starmount Forest doesn't this little blurb sound familiar...admittedly Gene Sarazen and Sam Snead are no Mike Cirba, but certainly they saw a few golf courses in their time.
I've also attached one on East Potomac, and Pond gave Potomac Golf Course a B grade. I'm not sure if that is East or West Potomac. Neither man played Rock Manor, its inclusion was based on comments from Wilfred Reid. None the less I'm taking both courses off the list. I don't think the match the quality of the other courses.
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I can point to Rackham as an example. Yes, it hosted a Publinx, but I would be wholly surprsied if it was considered a top 7 course in Metro Detroit in 1930 and there weren't 7 really good courses in Detroit in 1930.
Ciao
I'm not sure what the number of good golf courses in Detroit has to do with the list considering there is only one course from Detroit on the list, but I would dispute your comment about the number of quality courses in Detroit in 1930: CC of Detroit, Indianwood, Detroit GC N&S, Oakland Hills N&S, Franklin Hills, Plum Hollow, Aviation, and Colony. That is ten and I think there may have been a few more.
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I'm taking off East Potomac and Rock Manor. There are 64 courses on the list; 46 were built in 1925 or later.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
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David, My post about Tommy Birdsong was a compliment to Tom Paul's golf history knowledge, not a knock.
Tom M - When did Starmount Forest Country Club go private? The following quote from their website suggests that they MAY have always been private:
"Dating back to its beginning in 1930, Starmount has become the distinguished country club of the Greater Greensboro area service our members' every needs. Our 6,600-yard golf course provides challenges to the most avid golfers, and has hosted numerous professional and Pro-Am golf tournaments, including the 2007 North Carolina Amateur Tournament."
Mike Cirba - while you're in Far Hills, be sure to spend some time on the putting green and in the history center. It really is a fantastic place, and I'm sure you'll love your week there :)
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"Does anybody else get the impression that this list of worthy publics is impossibly long? I for one am not buying that anywhere near all of these courses were considered exceptional unless we are talking some sort of mystical "its okay because its public" PoV."
Sean:
Oh yeah; count me in on that. It's not just ridiculously long but it also seems completely pointless and irrelevent to me if it is MacWood's attempt to refute Cirba's statement that he believes Cobbs Creek was the best municipal course in the country in some timeframe. But you know me; I've felt most everything MacWood and his sidekick Moriarty have said on here in the last seven years or so, particularly about anything to do with Philadelphia golf is pointless and irrelevent.
Even the time frame itself has been debated and who said what about that has been debated for about the last ten pages.
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"David, My post about Tommy Birdsong was a compliment to Tom Paul's golf history knowledge, not a knock."
Danderino:
Haven't you noticed how Moriarty has always had an interesting way of distorting even a compliment by someone to someone else as an example of a snarky comment or reference being pointed out? That's apparently his REALITY, don't you know? ;)
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Sean,
Like I said in post 347:
Tom M,
What was your rationale for the list of courses you provided in post 296?
You failed if you tried to prove that CC wasn't one of the top public courses by evidencing that list. That list, if anything, hurts your argument, IMHO.
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Tom Paul - Actually, I just looked up 'snarky'. It's actually a compliment: Snarky: Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse
Color Me Amused
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Yes, MikeC, when you're in Far Hills be sure to spend plenty of time on that putting green. The most prominent and complex mound fairly near the center of that mammoth green is known as "Mont Paul." :P
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"Tom Paul - Actually, I just looked up 'snarky'. It's actually a compliment: Snarky: Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse,"
Thank you for that definition. I guess that means just another in a long laundry liist of things Moriarty is wrong about on here since there is very little chance that twit could bring himself to compliment anything I said. :-\ :'( ;)
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David, My post about Tommy Birdsong was a compliment to Tom Paul's golf history knowledge, not a knock.
Tom M - When did Starmount Forest Country Club go private? The following quote from their website suggests that they MAY have always been private:
"Dating back to its beginning in 1930, Starmount has become the distinguished country club of the Greater Greensboro area service our members' every needs. Our 6,600-yard golf course provides challenges to the most avid golfers, and has hosted numerous professional and Pro-Am golf tournaments, including the 2007 North Carolina Amateur Tournament."
Mike Cirba - while you're in Far Hills, be sure to spend some time on the putting green and in the history center. It really is a fantastic place, and I'm sure you'll love your week there :)
Dan
I'm not sure when it went private. In Bob Labbance's biography of Stiles he indicates the course was still public in the 1940s and 1950s, and struggling with maintenance in preparation of Greensboro Open.
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Dan
While you've got the dictionary out you should look up the word 'sycophant.'
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You guys know the whole world can read this stuff, don't you?
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Tom M, Nah... Wrong word. I consider Tom Paul a friend, and friends don't need to resort to that type of false flattery.
Anyway, back to topic.... What exactly was the raison d'etre of this thread?
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Dan. I know what 'snarky' means.
Next time you may want to try a real dictionary rather than relying on "Greg's" third place entry on urbandictionary.com. Generally, if "Dane Cook" is mentioned as the first entry, it is probably not a reliable dictionary.
Were you really complimenting TEPaul for making the same tired crack he has made dozens (hundreds?) of times, often with descriptions of Birdsong being 7'9' and covered with tattoos from head to toe? I hope it pays off for you.
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Sean
To give you an idea of the depth of quality public courses during that era, here is a quote from an American Golfer Article written in 1929.
Although I have had the privilege, and that privilege still stands, I be- lieve, of playing over nearly all the private courses of the State, I want to say right here that I would just as soon play such public layouts as Montebello, Westwood, Sunset Fields, Western Avenue and the Griffith Park courses in the Southern part of the State and Harding Park and Lincoln Park in the San Francisco district as almost any privately owned golf course I know. They are beautifully kept up and represent the very finest there is in modern golf architecture.
Some golf writer puffery, no doubt, but from what I can tell these were all quality layouts by well respected designers on good sites. There were more quality public courses in California than that (bad ones as well-- the author mentions that some of them should be overhauled) but only half of the mentioned courses make Tom's list.
Maybe other regions were different, but there were some very good public courses out here.
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I guess I'm off to Far Hills with Mike.
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Who is Laura?
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"often with descriptions of Birdsong being 7'9' and covered with tattoos from head to toe? I hope it pays off for you."
You see Danderino, that remark above is why Moriarty is a sham and a fake and a virtual con artist in the realm of history----history of all types---the history of the architecture of Merion, and now the history of the remarkable Timucuan Indians, a North Florida tribe from which Tommy Birdsong came.
I've spent a good deal of time in North Florida around Amelia Island and Fernandina Beach etc. This area was the home of the remarkable Timucuan Indians.
And I get up always very early in the morning, always before daybreak, to see the incredible colors in the eastern sky over the Atlantic as the sun begins to rise and then to hie on down towards the Jacksonville Naval Base on old AIA and across both Big and Little Talbot Islands (a state park) on which there are some of the most beautiful natural blowout dunes and dunescapes to study and commune with that allows me to become more and more of a genius on natural golf course architecture. And after studying that remarkable dunescape for a few early morning hours I drive back up again and study the shapes of the waterways dilineated by sea grasses which give me great inspiration for wonderful and original golf holes shapes and strategies.
When Fernandina Beach opens up I go up in there and study the history of the remarkable Timucuan Indians----a tribe that anthropoligists say were perhaps the gentlest people in the history of human kind. Part of their culture was they were tatooed from head to toe. And they were also reputed to be perhaps the tallest people ever known.
But my indepth research on them proved to anthropoligists that was not actually true.
I discovered that another part of their culture was they never cut their hair and so they simply piled it on top of their heads and it got ever higher and higher as life went on, leading other peoples, other people like the white man (of which Moriarty is one of the most despicable and unintelligent examples, albeit extremely pompous) to assume they were the tallest people ever known.
Tommy Birdsong actually looked 7' 9'' but in fact he was only about 5' 4''. The top 2' 5" of the man was actually his cultural Timucuan pompadour!
Do you think Moriarty ever knew any of that or could ever figure out something that historically important? Of course not! Moriarty is no researcher and no historian. It appears he knows no more about Tommy Birdsong and the remarkable Timucuan Indians than he does about the architecture of Merion East and Hugh I. Wilson.
And he has obviously never seen or even heard of Fernandina Municpal golf course, Tommy Birdsong's career architectural tour-de-force and the greatest hidden gem in the world. Matter of fact it has clearly the most strategic Spanish Moss ever known in golf and architecture.
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"Who is Laura?"
And now you're asking who Laura is, MacWood? For someone who keeps claiming on here he is an expert researcher you definitely ask far too many questions of others followed by claims that they are wrong about things you apparently had to ask about in the first place. What, by the way, is THAT constant MO all about? You really are an idiot in your Ivory Tower in Oh-Hi-Hee who knows less than zero about Philadelphia and Philadelphia architecture.
Laura is Dan's wife and the driving force behind French Creek GC. There is also quite clear evidence that she routed and designed it too, perhaps even in her spare time, and she is such a sweet and non-proprietary person she actually let Gil Hanse put his name on it as the architect!
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Was that the woman at your winter get together last year or the year before?
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Wasn't Starmount Forest designed by Perry Maxwell? I could be wrong but I seem to remember it that way.
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Chris
No, you're right Maxwell has been credited with SF for years. I believe both the Maxwell and Stiles biographies set the record straight that Stiles and Van Kleek actually designed the golf course.
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TEPaul,
You've posted over 60+ times on this thread, yet you know nothing about the topic and have contributed nothing of value or substance.
You should read the profile of the real Tommy Birdsong to which Dan linked. His life was infinitely more cogent and compelling than your mocking fantasies.
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MacWood:
It seems you are virtually incapable of getting anything right with architectural attribution. Starmount Forset wasn't designed by Stiles and Van Kleek it was designed by the prominent jewelery firm Van Cleef and Arples.
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Make that 61.
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Dan. I know what 'snarky' means.
Next time you may want to try a real dictionary rather than relying on "Greg's" third place entry on urbandictionary.com. Generally, if "Dane Cook" is mentioned as the first entry, it is probably not a reliable dictionary.
Were you really complimenting TEPaul for making the same tired crack he has made dozens (hundreds?) of times, often with descriptions of Birdsong being 7'9' and covered with tattoos from head to toe? I hope it pays off for you.
_______________________________________________________
Sean
To give you an idea of the depth of quality public courses during that era, here is a quote from an American Golfer Article written in 1929.
Although I have had the privilege, and that privilege still stands, I be- lieve, of playing over nearly all the private courses of the State, I want to say right here that I would just as soon play such public layouts as Montebello, Westwood, Sunset Fields, Western Avenue and the Griffith Park courses in the Southern part of the State and Harding Park and Lincoln Park in the San Francisco district as almost any privately owned golf course I know. They are beautifully kept up and represent the very finest there is in modern golf architecture.
Some golf writer puffery, no doubt, but from what I can tell these were all quality layouts by well respected designers on good sites. There were more quality public courses in California than that (bad ones as well-- the author mentions that some of them should be overhauled) but only half of the mentioned courses make Tom's list.
Maybe other regions were different, but there were some very good public courses out here.
Well Dave - all I can say is I would much rather play a 2010 list of publics than the one posted by Tommy Mac. I don't believe his list in anyway compares with the privates of 1930, but today it is a totally different story.
Tommy Mac
I suspect my standards of what is really good is much higher than yours. I have seen most of those courses you mention and I wouldn't maake a special effort to play many of them nr would I recommend other travel to see many of them. Rackham falls well down the list and that is how I know the course isn't special - plus I have played it. Believe me, the course is more important as a historical "black club" than it is architecturally.
I think your list of wonders would be far more believable if folks had heard of half of them. I suspect even you didn't know many of these courses existed until conducting your recent search. Tell me again, what is the point of what is now known as The List?
Ciao
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What were the really good golf courses in Detroit in 1930?
Higher standards? It goes without saying you have higher standards than just about everyone on GCA. What exactly are your standards for what constitutes really good?
Rackham has been redesigned over the years. The front nine is no longer Ross; the back is mostly intact, but the original course has been severely compromised. You can not compare Rackham of today with the Rackham of the 1920s and 1930s. By the way I forgot to add Essex CC and Red Run to my Detroit 1930 list, which brings the total to an even dozen.
I knew the majority of the courses because I've researched the majority of the architects.
I answered your question in post 349. I believe for anyone truly interested in golf architecture history it has been a very interesting and educational exercise. What more can you ask.
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Earlier in the thread you asked this same question, but obviously it slipped your mind. I've played a handful, and a couple of them would not be on the list had I relied on their current state (Sharp Park and Community). I doubt Cobbs Creek would make the list based on its current state. The only effective way to put an historic list like this together is through contemporaneous reports. For example six or seven of the courses are NLE; hard to play those courses unless you have a time machine a la TEP.
The architectural attributes of a number of these courses have been discussed on other threads and in books like Daniel Wexler's Lost Links. Even after pages and pages of posts I don't recall the architectural attributes of CC being discussed much (if at all), but I have to admit I stopped reading those threads a while back. It seems to me those threads have been more about who contributed to the design and how you would change that course in a perfect world.
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Tom MacWood,
Griffith Park - Wilson seems to have fallen off your list (if it was ever on) and I think you should consider including it. It was designed (or redesigned) by George Thomas in 1923, hosted three Los Angeles Opens (1937-1939), and was considered by some to be among Southern California's best courses. (See blurb above, for example.)
On the eve of the Los Angeles Municipal Championship in 1927, the Los Angeles Times had this to say:
The Woodrow Wilson Course, one of the very finest municipal layouts in the United States, has been carefully groomed for the championship opening Monday.
(Those signed up to play included top golfers from all the area clubs, with a particularly strong team from Lakeside featuring George Drugstore Cornes, Howard Hughes, and Jack Neville.)
A 1938 Times article announced that the Griffith Park courses would again host the Los Angeles Open in 1939:
Held the last two years at Griffith Park, the tournament drew the largest total attendance in its history with Southland fans flocking by the thousands to the beautiful public courses, said to be the finest municipally owned links in America.
(Competitors planning to play included Eddy Loos, Joe Degal, Jimmy Thomson, Sam Snead, Horton Smith, Ed Dudley, Lawson Little, Byron Nelson, Harry Cooper, etc. Prior hosting courses had included LACC North, Riviera, and Wilshire CC, and the tournament returned to LACC in 1940.)
Take it for what its worth because he is certainly no Mike Cirba, but here is what Daniel Wexler wrote about the Griffith Park Courses in 2007:
Griffith Park, Harding and Wilson Municipal Golf Courses (Los Angeles): Though golf made its debut in Griffith Park in 1914, today's facility dates to a 1923 expansion to 36 holes by the legendary designer George Thomas — a project that the philanthropic Thomas reportedly augmented from his own pocket when city funding ran short. The site of three late-1930s L.A. Opens, as well as the longtime home of 1961 PGA champion Jerry Barber, Griffith Park once ranked among the world's finest period municipal golf facilities. Today, after decades of ill-advised modifications (e.g., Harding course's now-removed "water bunkers") and the building of the Golden State Freeway, it remains among the most historic.
Don't get me wrong. I am not claiming it was the absolute best public in the country -- such a claim would be asinine-- I wasn't there so how would I know?? But surely it deserves consideration to be added to the list . . .
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David
If I'm not mistaken it was the longer and tougher of the two, although most reports I've seen say the other course was the more interesting and fun. There are a couple of courses I'm considering adding and I'll will add it to that list.
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David
If I'm not mistaken it was the longer and tougher of the two, although most reports I've seen say the other course was the more interesting and fun. There are a couple of courses I'm considering adding and I'll will add it to that list.
I think that Wilson was always a bit longer. Both courses have suffered through too many changes, including encroachment by the Los Angeles Zoo and I-5, yet still they are both fun routings with good use of the available land. I believe that in 1938 and 1939 they played the first two days of the LA Open on both courses and the final round on Wilson. Not sure about 1937. I don't think it was ever a case of a very strong A course and a much lesser B course, like some. I would have loved to have seen them in the late 20s.
Wilson is currently a bit longer (about 6950 compared to about 6540) and probably a bit harder. Currently I'd say they are fairly comparable as far as interest and fun goes, with maybe a slight edge to Harding. More a matter of preference. When I used to regularly play LA Tee Time Roulette I was equally happy to get a time at either.
The toughest tee time in the city is still Rancho Park (ineligible for the list because it was built as a hotel course) so I suppose Rancho is the top municipal in the City of Los Angeles, but I think that might have something to do with Rancho's more recent history of hosting professional tournaments. In their current forms Rancho may be a bit better but all three are pretty comparable and a few steps above the other LA City munis.
P.S. Don't get excited Mike. The course is named after Woodrow Wilson, the former President. Not Hugh.
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There was a pretty interesting connection between President Woodrow Wilson and the Wilson brothers of Merion, at least an "almost connection." The Wilson brothers via their contacts, Piper and Oakley, at the US Dept of Agriculture, and Walter Harban of Columbia CC, and with the support and backing of their friends and fellow board members of the USGA came remarkably close to convincing President Wilson to get the US Government (via the Dept of Agriculture) to completely take over and fund agronomic reseach and the development of golf grasses (dwarf grass, and particularly what became known as the "bent vegetative process").
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Tom,
I just thought of a good western course that isn't in your list... Why didn't you include Rose City? IMHO, it's better than some on the your list that I've played.
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I've never heard of Rose City. In the 1920s and 30s how did it rate with the other public courses in the Pacific NW?
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Tom and David,
I see you guys are both still very hard at work trying to come up with a better public golf course than Cobb's Creek prior to 1930. That's nice...good luck.
Carry on.
Mike, you said almost the exact same thing on the first page of this thread, when you pretended it was our burden to provide you with "a better, more highly regarded public course . . .." You are still pretending. My answer is the same then as now, as are my questions to you . . .
You are confused Mike. I am not the one who made the outrageously ignorant proclamation about the vast superiority of Cobb's Creek to every other public course in the nation!! I can't exactly place Cobb's Creek among the hundreds (thousands?) of public courses in existence at the time, because I haven't done a comprehensive study of all the public courses in existence prior to 1936.
Mike Cirba, have you done a comprehensive study of all the public courses opened in the United States before 1936?
- If so, why don't you educate us with your comparative analysis of these and Cobbs?
- If not, then why do you continue to make such asinine pronouncements about matters so far beyond your narrow knowledge base?
Those three questions still apply. Moreso now since you have been given plenty of information to get you started, yet you still haven't made your case. I recall you dismissing some courses as rudimentary (wasn't Cobbs in some ways?) but surely that doesn't apply to many of the courses designed after Cobb's by some of the best designers of the time, does it?
Was Cobbs really better and harder than Thomas' Wilson and Harding Courses? Better and harder than Bell's first Brookside Course, which is still known for its difficulty. Better than both of Bell's NLE Sunset Hills courses? Better than Harding Park in SF?? Better than Egan's Eastmoreland? Better than Haggin Oaks? Better than Bayside? Better than every course on the list? Surely you haven't even begun making your case, have you?
And Mike, don't take my refusal to put forth a best as any sort of concession. It is your claim, not mine.
As for the dates in question I again refer you to Mike Cirba, post 91. He set out the dates in question. And unless that Mike Cirba has the Brooklyn Eagle's time machine, he couldn't possibly have been responding to post 92, where Tom MacWood mentioned the Black, Red, and Harding Park.
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Tom and David,
I see you guys are both still very hard at work trying to come up with a better public golf course than Cobb's Creek prior to 1930. That's nice...good luck.
Carry on.
The question is not was there a better public golf course than Cobbs Creek, but how many public courses were better. Of course it is all subjective, but I'd guess we are up to 20 to 30 or more that were better. At this point it is farcical to believe CC was the best.
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I've added Gulf Hills in Mississippi, Ridgewood in Ohio and Cleveland Heights in Florida. I'm still considering some other additions and subtractions.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
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For anyone interested there is a very good article (in American Golfer 8/8/1925) on HA Stahl the man developed both Ridgewood in Ohio and Cleveland Hts. in Florida.
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Mike - I hope you know how highly I think of you, and of your efforts to restore Cobbs Creek; but I wish you hadn't started this thread. I believe, with you, that there are many and very fine reasons to restore Cobbs Creek - historical, architectural, and practical reasons. There are so many reasons, in fact, that I don't think you need to JUSTIFY such a restoration with the claim that CC was the best municpal course in the country before 1930. You don't need to justify CC at all in fact, especially not to anyone here - its lineage, its reasons for being, its championship history are justification enough. You don't need to PROVE that it was the best of its kind; and honestly, I don't think you HAVE proven it. I don't think you've done enough -- or CAN do enough, given the decades that have passed -- to prove that CC was the best of its kind. But NEITHER do I think that Tom Macwood, unless he is sitting on a wealth of relevant contemporary reports about each of the courses on the long list he's compiled, has provided much if any evidence to suggest that ANY OTHER municipal course was considered the finest in the land. (My brief internet search on some of them yielded surprisingly little; I guess no one who was very important in the golf world in the 20s and 30s cared ALL THAT MUCH one way or another about municpal courses back then....aside from the usual blather and meaningless compliments golfers tend to toss off, then and now.) So what we have left is an unpleasant re-packaging of old batttles between you guys, yet another version of the same old mean-spirited attempts to diminish each-other in the eyes of the reading public. And it gets tiring to read - I mean, you are all bright men, and yet you come off like idiots the way you constantly misunderstand and misintepret eachother's posts. (Worse, since I know you're not idiots, I have to assume you're all being a--holes) Anyway, Mike, I hope very much that you don't mind this post -- again, you deserve support for the good cause you're fighting for CC's restoration; but I think you really need to understand that you WON'T GET that support HERE...and that you won't get it even if you had a more defensible/provable claim than the one that started this thread. And again - I don't know if you're WRONG in that claim; only that your trying to prove it seems as much of a mug's game as Tom M trying to disprove it.
Peter
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Here is the article on Mr.Stahl.
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Mike - yes, I CAN see that. And I know you are busy with other things. That's why I posted - to try to say to everyone involved that it was best, IMO, to let the thread drop. (Tom M can start another one of municipal courses in America before 1936). The debate -- as has been waged for many pages now -- is proving frutiless and futile. You deserve better than that.
Peter
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Peter
Which course would you rather see restored, Sharp Park or Cobbs Creek?
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I can't answer that, Tom - despite the very impressive names attached to Sharp Park, I have no idea if architecturally and historically it was/is more worthy of a faithful restoration than was/is Cobbs Creek. And I think these kinds of 'more worthy' debates always ends in tears.
Peter
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Peter, I understand your comments; it is the same old discussion. But there is more to it from my perspective other than pettiness. For some strange reason, I care about the history of golf course design, and I am tired of seeing it misrepresented and mischaracterized by people with very obvious agendas and hometown biases. Mike's statement wasn't just about Cobbs, it was about every public course in the country before Bethpage, and without much reasonable basis at all. Wishing something was true doesn't make it true. But Mike doesn't seem to understand that, and he isn't the only one. If he or anyone else has a case to make the should make it. He hasn't.
And yes, it is just a matter of opinion, but there are informed opinions backed up by facts and reasonable analysis, and then there is what we have here. A homer newspaper article doesn't mean much and a self-proclimation as an old public course expert doesn't cut it with me. I am tired of people around here pretending to be experts and then coming up with nothing to back it up.
And when Mike does bother with facts, he picks and chooses facts here and there and twists them however he pleases. A homer puff piece in a Philadelphia paper is proof positive that Cobbs was the best; but similar statements in papers about courses elsewhere are ignored. Cobbs hosted a Public Links, therefore it must be a prerequisite that a course host a public links to even be considered the best. Never mind that the Griffith courses were hosting the well respected Los Angeles Open along with courses like Wilshire, Riviera, and LACC, and never mind the American Golfer article quoted above where some of CA's publics (including Griffith Park) were said to rival the best privates in CA. Never mind that the LA Municipal Championship didn't just attract public course players but rather the top players from every club in town.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Griffith was the best in the nation. As far as I know, it might not have been the best in LA County. But to dismiss it because it didn't host a Publinks? Too much.
-- While hosting is Cobbs sign of greatness, Mike dismisses many of the early Publinks host courses as primitive and rudimentary. Then he has the gall to suggest that because Griffith didn't host a publinks it can't be one of the best? Which is it? Typical Cirba hypocracy. Twist the evidence to fit whatever point you happen to be trying to make at the moment, never mind consistency.
-- Mike apparently missed the fact that of the first 10 publinks championships (through 1932) not a single one was on the West Coast.
-- And despite the shut out by the USGA when it came to host cities, there must have been some decent courses on the West Coast in the 1920s, because, if the Publinks Championships are any indication, the West Coast publinks were doing something right. Beginning in 1931 the West Coast teams thoroughly dominated the Publinks team competition, winning 8 of 10 through 1940 and 11 of 15 through 1950. The city of Los Angeles won four championships in the 1930s (1933, 1934, 1938, 1939), another in 1950, and six more since. Long Beach won once and Pasadena twice, so LA County has won 13 Publinks Team Championships. While Pittsburg has 3 Championships, Philadelphia has never won.
-- Never mind that Daniel Wexler wrote that Griffith Park was once one of the finest municipal golf facilities in the World, it didn't host a Publinks, so Mike knows it was not all that good.
Do I think Wilson at Griffth was the best in the United States? I have no idea, but I doubt it. It may not have been the best at Griffith Park. But this does give some idea, I hope, how strong the competition was, at least out west, and how thin of a case he has made for Cobbs. I think he forgets that I have played Cobbs, and the Southern California comparables I would probably have come up with aren't even on Tom's list!
By the way, Los Angeles has hosted a Publinks (Rancho Park,) as has Pasadena (Brookside.) From what I can tell, at one point Rancho Park was really something special, but because it was originally a hotel course, it does not make Tom's list.
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Mike,
Well said.
Peter,
Thanks for your wisdom
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Tom,
I would love to see Sharp Park restored, but it was built in 1931 and outside the scope of my original point.
The larger issue with SP however, is that most of it fell to the sea shortly after it was built, and even its staunchest advocates today are very uncertain whether the original design was environmentally sustainable, much less economically feasible, and doing a restoration to the original design is deemed impossible by virtually everyone at this point due to the construction of the sea wall.
1930? Was Sharp Park built by the WPA or some other public works program? No. 1930 is a bogus date and you know it and everyone else knows it. If it wasn't obvious to everyone before it certainly is obvious now CC was no where close to being the best, most difficult public course in America. That is why you continually change the paramaters. First it was 1936, then it was prior to the WPA, now it is 1930, before we are done it will prior to US involvement in WWI, East of the Mississippi, North of the Mason-Dixon and on an inland site.
Sharp Park did not fall into the sea, you are thinking of Olympic Club's Ocean Course. The sea washed over SP damaging the golf course, not unlike the numerous floods that washed away Cobbs Creek. SP is a low lying site; the Ocean course was up on a cliff.
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I can't answer that, Tom - despite the very impressive names attached to Sharp Park, I have no idea if architecturally and historically it was/is more worthy of a faithful restoration than was/is Cobbs Creek. And I think these kinds of 'more worthy' debates always ends in tears.
Peter
Who cares about the names. You can not look at that schematic and compare it to similar maps of CC and judge which was a more interesting, bolder, better designed golf course?
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"If it wasn't obvious to everyone before it certainly is obvious now CC was no where close to being the best, most difficult public course in America."
Tom MacWood:
No, that is not obvious now to everyone. That you would suggest such a thing only reinforces how shallow, uninformed and uninformative your posts and arguments on this thread have been, including your evolving and ever increasing "list" which says just about nothing of any comparative value regarding any of these golf courses including Cobbs Creek.
Peter Pallotta is an intelligent and excellent observer on this website and I believe all three primary protagonists on this thread should carefully consider his advice and suggestions in his Post #406. It seems he offered it with the best of intentions.
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"If it wasn't obvious to everyone before it certainly is obvious now CC was no where close to being the best, most difficult public course in America."
Tom MacWood:
No, that is not obvious now to everyone. That you would suggest such a thing only reinforces how shallow, uninformed and uninformative your posts and arguments on this thread have been, including your evolving and ever increasing "list" which says just about nothing of any comparative value regarding any of these golf courses including Cobbs Creek.
Peter Pallotta is an intelligent and excellent observer on this website and I believe all three primary protagonists on this thread should carefully consider his advice and suggestions in his Post #406. It seems he offered it with the best of intentions.
Let me rephrase my comment...obvious to anyone outside Philadelphia.....
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"Who cares about the names. You can not look at that schematic and compare it to similar maps of CC and judge which was a more interesting, bolder, better designed golf course?"
Tom MacWood;
That right there is such a fundamentally misguided remark and thought it should be used as the subject of a thread on here; or perhaps even an IMO piece. It probably largely explains why your MO on here has always been what it has been about many of the courses you try to discuss and argue about on here.
Only looking at schematics and maps of golf courses and trying to compare their architectural worth or value does have some value but most certainly not much compared to actually going to those courses and their sites for that purpose. The reasons should be completely obvious to anyone with a passing understanding of golf course architecture! I remind all that is something you very rarely do with the clubs and courses you critique and that is essentially why your evaluations of them are so uninformed and ultimately misguided and argumentative.
I've told you this 10-20 times on here over the years but like everything else you can't answer, or refuse to, I suppose to avoid embarrassing yourself, you either ignore it or dismiss it----and seemingly every time without fail.
And you do it even with public or municpal courses which you certainly appear to have an interest in, and which most certainly do not present the complexities of access compared to private courses which you clearly have some inherent problem figuring how to access to establish working research relationships with.
This is ironic to me as I certainly don't have the interest in the histories of public or municipal courses you do or seem to, and yet I certainly know Cobbs Creek and its site spending the appropriate time on it studying it with people who know it well, and in the last month I spent (with Bob Crosby) about half a day studing Sharp Park right there on the course and with the people there who apparently know and understand the most about its history, architectural and otherwise.
It's too bad you don't do that (apparently only relying on schematics and plans, as you say, or an ever increasing laundry list of names and irrelevent articles) and it's even worse that you continue to avoid acknowledging it and the importance of it or just continue to rationalize it away, as I'm quite sure you will do again after reading this post or any others like it on here from other contributors.
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"Let me rephrase my comment...obvious to anyone outside Philadelphia....."
Tom MacWood:
I appreciate your rephrasing of your comment, but it appears it most certainly is not obvious to others OUTSIDE PHILADELPHIA either as evidenced on this very thread from a contributor from Texas, another from Canada and another abroad who is an American. I'm quite sure there are others who've been on this thread who are from outside Philadelphia who feel the same.
Don't worry, I won't ask you to acknowledge this since you most certainly have proven over the years you are heretofore completely incapable of that.
Again, I think all three of you should consider again Peter Pallotta's good post, #406, and heed his advice on it. He surely seems to have offered it with the best intentions for all on this website, including the three primary protagonists.
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But NEITHER do I think that Tom Macwood, unless he is sitting on a wealth of relevant contemporary reports about each of the courses on the long list he's compiled, has provided much if any evidence to suggest that ANY OTHER municipal course was considered the finest in the land.
Peter
I am sitting on a wealth of contemporaneous reports, photographs, maps, aerials, etc. That is how I came up with the list. The purpose of this exercise was not to identify the finest public golf course in America, the purpose of this exercise was to show the depth and breadth of very good public golf courses in America during the period in question, and to show how ridiculous Mike's claim was....which you have acknowledged.
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"Peter
I am sitting on a wealth of contemporaneous reports, photographs, maps, aerials, etc."
Tom MacWood:
Then where is it?
I think you either missed or perhaps intentionally avoided a very important qualifier in Peter Pallotta's statement that you even quoted in your post just above. And that is the word and qualifier----RELEVANT! ;)
"But NEITHER do I think that Tom Macwood, unless he is sitting on a wealth of relevant contemporary reports about each of the courses on the long list he's compiled, has provided much if any evidence to suggest that ANY OTHER municipal course was considered the finest in the land."
Peter Pallotta
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"If it wasn't obvious to everyone before it certainly is obvious now CC was no where close to being the best, most difficult public course in America."
The trouble with MacWood, and generally Moriarty too, is they too often tend to make statements like the one by MacWood (from this morining) above. They seem to try to make those statements on here look like facts in that they KNOW there is a total consensus of opinion that EVERYONE agrees on and apparently agrees with them on.
At least I don't see that you have done THAT on here, Mike Cirba; and thankfully so.
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I found this in the Chicago Tribune. I get the impression they probably would have disputed Mike's claim.
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I fail to see how that article has much value at all in comparing the quality of Cobbs Creek to any other good municipal course in America in 1928. As I read it that article certainly didn't do that or try to but maybe you see something in it that others don't.
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Yet another trainwreck of a thread with seemingly no purpose or point. One thing is clear, if this list is the "best of", public courses weren't very good 80 years ago. This is something I never really thought of before. It makes me wonder how good the privates were. I know Mike Young bangs on the cage every once in a while with his thoughts on how few very good courses there were from the Golden Age. Maybe there is something there.
Ciao
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Mike:
I think this kind of thing is increasingly underscoring the unreliablity of some, perhaps most newspaper articles and even contemporaneous ones as a reliable research and analysis tool for the purposes many have on this subject of golf architecture and its history. Unfortunately for Tom MacWood it seems to be the only golf course architecture research and analysis tool he uses and has ever used.
And I must say in defense of Moriarty, he doesn't really do that or at least nowhere near the extent MacWood does. I think his research avenues on Merion of determining Hugh Wilson went abroad in 1912 by apparently plying old ship manifests or even his discovery of the so-called "Sayers Scrapbook" apparently on the website of the Pa Historical Society is far better and far more impressive research. It's too bad he didn't just come to Merion first though, as the latter and far, far more resides there and in essentially one place.
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Here is an interesting article on public golf in Chicago. It appeared in the Chicago Tribune in 1924.
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I've added the Wilson course in LA and Pickwick in Chicago. I've taken off Deerpath (Chicago) and Hyde Park (Buffalo).
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
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TMac,
Thank you very much for sharing that Chicago article. It reminds me that when I left there 25 years ago, they still made a similar claim in terms of numbers of public courses.
It also reminds me that in the early days, golf courses were laid out near the rail lines for easy access. For me, that would be a perfect day - round of golf and a train ride!
BTW, I would still be interested in the background of those two pubic golf guides from the 50's. I googled the authors and titles and came up with some related stuff, but no concrete mention of the actual books, or qualifications of the authors. One seemed to have been involved in the commerical mowing tractor biz and it would seem like a natural extension of his interests.
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Tom MacWood - Hyde Park is in Niagara Falls, NY - not Buffalo.
And I still think your list would be 100x more valuable if it included the location of the course.
(PS - you sure you want to say that Duck Creek is better than Cobb's Creek? The Duck Creek in Hobart, IN? Have you researched Duck Creek?)
OK - I'm headed back to Far Hills now.
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TMac,
Thank you very much for sharing that Chicago article. It reminds me that when I left there 25 years ago, they still made a similar claim in terms of numbers of public courses.
It also reminds me that in the early days, golf courses were laid out near the rail lines for easy access. For me, that would be a perfect day - round of golf and a train ride!
BTW, I would still be interested in the background of those two pubic golf guides from the 50's. I googled the authors and titles and came up with some related stuff, but no concrete mention of the actual books, or qualifications of the authors. One seemed to have been involved in the commerical mowing tractor biz and it would seem like a natural extension of his interests.
Jeff
I don't know what their qualifications were other than they were obvious enthusiasts. They were exposed to a hell of a lot of golf courses from coast to coast, not unlike Ralph Kennedy. I imagine they had sales jobs. In my judgment they had pretty good taste and a good understanding of golf architecture (and golf architects). I don't rely on them exclusively, they are just part of the equation. By the way those guides are for all golf courses...private, resort, daily fee and municipal.
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Tom MacWood - Hyde Park is in Niagara Falls, NY - not Buffalo.
And I still think your list would be 100x more valuable if it included the location of the course.
(PS - you sure you want to say that Duck Creek is better than Cobb's Creek? The Duck Creek in Hobart, IN? Have you researched Duck Creek?)
OK - I'm headed back to Far Hills now.
I don't know if Duck Creek was better than CC or not. As I've said before I believe CC would fit somewhere in the middle of the pack on this list. Duck Creek is in Davenport, Iowa.
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Mike,
You put forth those blurbs above as some sort of conclusive, conversation ending proof of Cobbs' nationwide superiority? Really? This says more about your analytical skill and interest-driven reasoning than I ever could.
-- You might want to do some actual research on how much the term "famed" is thrown around. You might be surprised with the result.
-- You might also want to consider how a blurb like this generally gets in a paper like those you listed. You don't actually think they sent a reporter, do you?
You and TEPaul try to mock MacWood for posting the description of Cobbs from the Chicago paper above. What in the article was grossly inaccurate?
-- The course originally relied mostly on natural hazards, did it not?
-- My understanding is that Cobbs Creek was always on the short side, was it not? , listed at the opening at around 6070 yards. The way they measured in the Philly area at the time, it was likely significantly shorter than that.
-- The course did contain a number of drive and pitch par fours, did it not? (And by the way, early in the thread weren't you dissing courses you hadn't played for containing too many short par fours on the scorecard? Cobbs was not much longer than these courses, was it?)
-- About the only thing I can take issue with was the articles apparent reliance on the hole distances to judge the difficulty of the par 5s, but that is about it.
-- You say they increased the distance of the holes for the tournament. Did the listed yardage reflect that, or had it been lengthened multiple times? If it had, why would such a great course have to be lengthened twice in its first dozen years of existence?
In short, your mockery aside, it sounds like the article had it about right, didn't it?
As for your comments to me about Griffith Park, you are all wet. I cite California Courses because that is what I know. Call me a homer all you like, but I have made no outrageous proclamations about the superiority of any California public over all others. I understand why you are confused; even without making such claim, I've made a better case than you have for Cobbs. Still, though, I make no such claim because I don't believe it, and couldn't back it up. We certainly have different understandings of what constitutes proof. What is unfair about bringing up Wexler? He is more an expert than you, is he not?
Your continued reliance on who hosted the Publinks isn't genuine and is hypocritical. You cannot trash the quality of the other hosting courses then hold out hosting as some sort of prerequisite for quality. Were all those courses better than the California courses that never hosted? If not, then how come you assume that hosting means that Cobbs was better?
As TEPaul said somewhere, hosting was at least in part a function of a course coming to the USGA and wanting to host. I've no reason to believe Los Angeles Griffith Park would have bothered, their municipal championship drew a much higher quality golfer, as did the Los Angeles Open. That some of California's public courses were considered along with California's best privates ought to tell you something about their quality.
As for my reminders that I've played Cobbs and am familiar with its history it is because I know first-hand the outrageous nature your claim. I have no interest in knocking Cobbs, but you've overstepped reason, and in fine Philly fashion have done so in a way that puts down everything else. Had it been enough for you to say Cobbs was one of the best, or even one of the very best before 1920, there would be little room to argue and a more reasonable discussion, but by putting it above every other course in the country? Too much.
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Tom MacWood,
I'll have to do some checking, but I think Griffith Park Harding (originally but briefly called Riverside) was not a redo of a previous Bendelow course. I think that the Wilson course may have been built over the old Bendelow Course, but will confirm when I get the chance.
Have you considered Long Beach Recreation Park or San Diego Balboa Park? I don't know too much about either one, but I believe that at least Rec Park still contains some pretty cool stuff. I think these courses are a bit older than some of the other California publics, and might be more in line with where I was thinking Cobbs might fit.
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David,
Help me out - you're stating that if the original claim was, "Cobbs was one of the best, or even one of the very best before 1920" that you'd have been OK with the claim?
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David,
Help me out - you're stating that if the original claim was, "Cobbs was one of the best, or even one of the very best before 1920" that you'd have been OK with the claim?
I'd may not have agreed with it, but I definitely would have been okay with it. It is at least arguable, meaning that enough information existed so that a reasonable case could be made, even if it was ultimately just an opinion. It might have promoted a more reasonable and productive discussion. As it is, Mike could not possible make his case, and his claim amounted to just more puffery and building his favorites up by knocking everyone else down.
I view public golf as sort of an evolution, and think we really need to consider who the public golfer was at the time these courses came into existence. Cobbs' place in that evolution is sort of interesting, in that Philadelphia was reportedly relatively late in coming to public golf, especially for East Coast cities and cities were golf was already well established. That being said, it was built during an era where public golfers were still considered much less capable (often for good reason,) and their golf courses generally reflected that. It was also built during an era where there was still much hostility toward (or at least a lack of acceptance of) public golfing from public officials, and this impacted the decisions about the makeup of the courses and how resources expended upon them.
For example, when Cobbs first opened, an article reported that Cobbs was thought to be a course ultimatley for those who shot in the 120s or higher, and presumably that more challenging public courses would eventually have to take its place for the better golfers. For another example, while local commentators were always careful to praise Cobbs in relation to mostly unnamed public courses elsewhere, there was generally no confusion as to where Cobbs stood in relation to the areas' private courses.
I recall reading about a dispute that arose when the club pro (I think) at Cobbs (possibly a relative of Mike Cirba's?) supposedly claimed something like that Cobbs was every bit as good and as difficult as Pine Valley. One of the very same writers who had been a big advocate of public golf and had declared Cobbs to be a top public course absolutely ripped the guy, going through numerous reasons (I remember some of them, but don't want to risk getting them wrong in this crowd) why Cobbs couldn't possibly compare to Pine Valley, or even to a whole list of other area Clubs, some of which I don't think were considered to be all that great at the time. I think this set off the Cirbian-like Cobbs supporters and they went back and forth a bit, but I don't think the commentator budged much. I'll try to dig up the articles later, if you are interested.
My point is that, in Philadelphia, Cobbs was apparently considered very good for a public, but that is about it. And in their minds that wasn't necessarily saying that much during this early wave of public courses. As time went on and golf became more popular and public golfers gained skill and respect, the public courses changed accordingly, and in some cases it became less necessary to compare the publics only to the other publics. See the article above, where the American Golf commentator places the best California publics up there with the best privates in the state (Remember that California has some very good privates.)
So in sum, in my opinion it is not as if Bethpage Black just appeared from a void with this novel idea that a public golf course could be comparable in quality to the best and most difficult privates; this was something that public golf courses had been heading toward for quite some time, and some of the publics built later in the era were actually very good on by any standard, public or private.
That is why Mike's arbitrary 1930 switcharoo is so annoying. It doesn't create the division he claims to want to create, and it ignores the culmination of what seems to have been a progression of quality throughout the pre WWII era.
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I think everybody's made their points now. Perhaps it's time to move on?
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I think everybody's made their points now. Perhaps it's time to move on?
I take it you aren't interested in my finding the articles where the merits of Cobbs are compared to some of the private courses in the area?
That aside, I thought we had moved on until Mike pulled the thread up for a few more articles that didn't address his claim. But I do think Mike has had plenty of opportunity to prove up his claim, and since he hasn't yet I don't expect that he can. I remain interested to see Tom's list continue to evolve, and at some point I may put it into chronological order as that may be a more telling way to look at the evolution of public golf in America.
Also, I never have quite understood why Tom has excluded private courses that became public during the relevant era. I am curious as to how these compared to those courses built as publics from the beginning.
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David,
Your last sentence is quite interesting... There's an exhibit at Golf House on public golf, especially those courses built as part of the New Deal. Fascinating stuff that's beyond this thread, but deserves study.
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David,
Your last sentence is quite interesting... There's an exhibit at Golf House on public golf, especially those courses built as part of the New Deal. Fascinating stuff that's beyond this thread, but deserves study.
Sounds interesting. I'll be sure to take a look if I ever make it out there.
If the exhibit only covers courses truly built as part of the New Deal, then most or all of the courses must have opened in the mid-1030's or likely later. Roosevelt was elected in 1932, began serving in 1933, and if my memory serves he signed legislation creating the WPA in 1934 or 1935. Some state programs may have started slightly earlier, but not much earlier, as they needed new deal money to survive
This is why Mike's dates are so preposterous. He insists of a cut-off in 1930 supposedly because New Deal government programs allowed for the creation of so many courses, but it is impossible for these courses to have come on line until the middle of the decade! It is not as if the market crashed on October of 1929 and by 1930 "new deal" courses had been designed, built, and were opening up.
If he doesn't want to include New Deal courses in his analysis it is easy enough to exclude those built on the New Deal dole without falsely and artificially interrupting the evolution of public golf up until that point.
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David,
Pluheeze - I'm trying to facilitate a movement to a topic that we could all learn from together. Let's lay off negativity and move forward :) (Myself included)
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Mike,
When are we gonna get out there to see the hidden architectural relics?
I'm starting to get the itch again after visiting Valley Forge and seeing the Revolutionary War-era earthworks.
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David
I did consider Balboa Park, Recreation Park and Montebello Park. The golf course guides from the early 30s claimed Balboa Park still had sand greens, I don't know when that changed. Also the yardage was listed as less the 6000 yards, which is sort of my unofficial cut off. I'm still considering the other two.
I did not consider the private courses gone public just for clarity's sake. The transition from private to public was not always clear cut. Also I did not want open to the flood gates for resort courses. I wanted to avoid the pure public courses being dominated by the private and resort courses, which is what would have happened. There are exceptions to the private/public transition, I will consider those courses that began as private projects but opened as daily fee courses for whatever reason.
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[
At least Tom MacWood realized he reached his Waterloo with his ridiculous and now disproven claims that the course wasn't extremely well-regarded back them and wisely knew enough to keep silent, but that didn't stop David from his usual verbal diarrhea, self-appointed expert posturing, and nonsensical blathering at the mouth, sandwiched between his now habitual Turrets like string of childlike personal insults that lack both humor and insight..
Huh? I believe that CC was in the middle of the pack of the course I've listed. Do you think everyone of these courses is worthy of restoration?
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"So, in the immortal words of Paul Harvey, now you know the rest of the story
Good day..."
Mike:
Rather than Paul Harvey's immortal closing words, it might be more appropriate for this particular thread to cite the immortal closing words of Edward R. Murrow...."Good Night, and Good Luck" or perhaps better yet, the immortal closing words of Walter Cronkite...."And that's the way it is."
;)
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nichts mehr gesagt werden muss
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Sleep tight don't let the bed bugs bite.
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Dan,
Unfortunately, Mike apparently isn't quite ready to let go. I think my last few posts must have touched a nerve. Rather than address anything in them, I guess he figured he'd take his mentor's approach and just throw insults. I wonder why Mike goes into near hysterics whenever someone actually addresses the substance of the issues at hand?
And Dan, I don't view challenging Mike's 1930 deadline as negative. We could all learn something by exploring it further. Mike claimed his reason for changing the date was because he did not wish to include the new deal courses. So a simple question is, why cut off courses opened before the New Deal got going? Another simple question is, why not simply exclude New Deal courses and include others that came into being independent of the New Deal programs. Another simple question is, which of the courses on Tom's list was a WPA or "New Deal" project? You and Mike could copy a list of New Deal courses while you are at the Golf House, and that would give us a good place to start.
I am fascinated that no one is interested in hearing more about Cobbs Creek vs. Pine Valley, but I suppose Mike already knows all about it, and would rather it not come up. Sounds familiar.
If Mike ever calms down, I'd love to let Mike's portion of the conversation drift away. I said from the beginning that he neither capable of nor interested in discussing the early public courses rationally, and he proves me right in almost every post.
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Tom MacWood, I thought I read recently that Balboa was redone by Billy Bell in the early 1920s with grass greens, etc. but I could be mistaken. I know it has always been a fairly short course, but then so has Cobbs.
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David
I've read the same reports about Bell and Balboa. I'm thinking either he didn't convert the greens or his involvement came later.
You asked yesterday about the attribution at Griffith Park. I took the description George Thomas gave of the process in his book. He took a few holes and green sites from the original course (which I believe was opened in 1915) to make a new 36 holes. Its a little misleading to give Bendelow as much credit as I have because his course was altered so much, but I thought he did at least deserve mention.
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I've added Lawsonia, and it has to be one of the top courses on this list. Lawsonia began as an exclusive real estate development and private club in 1927, but by the time the course was formally opened in May 1930 that plan was out the window. It was a daily fee golf course and remained so at least through the early 50s.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford
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Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba. When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread. It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.
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Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba. When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread. It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.
Which board game involves a ball?
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Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba. When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread. It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.
Which board game involves a ball?
. . . kicking over the gameboard OR trying to take his ball and go home.
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I can point to Rackham as an example. Yes, it hosted a Publinx, but I would be wholly surprsied if it was considered a top 7 course in Metro Detroit in 1930 and there weren't 7 really good courses in Detroit in 1930.
Ciao
I'm not sure what the number of good golf courses in Detroit has to do with the list considering there is only one course from Detroit on the list, but I would dispute your comment about the number of quality courses in Detroit in 1930: CC of Detroit, Indianwood, Detroit GC N&S, Oakland Hills N&S, Franklin Hills, Plum Hollow, Aviation, and Colony. That is ten and I think there may have been a few more.
Orchard Lake CC as well
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Mike
The thread had been dead for two days when I posted my list so I don't see how I killed it. If you had a problem at the time you should have said something, I would have gladly started a new thread....like the one you started (1895-1930) in order to revise your original claim.
David
I don't have a problem with Mike changing the title of the tread or erasing some of his posts. There aren't too many threads without titles. I think it brings greater attention to what is IMO an interesting thread, and also shows who is willing to stand by their convictions and who is not. People are used to that kind of response from the city of brotherly love.
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I've added Lawsonia, and it has to be one of the top courses on this list. Lawsonia began as an exclusive real estate development and private club in 1927, but by the time the course was formally opened in May 1930 that plan was out the window. It was a daily fee golf course and remained so at least through the early 50s.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford
Given this list, do you suppose it would be possible to list where these courses are, if they still exist or if they are still public at this time? You know, for those of us who might want to play them and are not sure where they are.
Thanks.
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John
Yes, it may take me a little time, but I will add all the locations.
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Tom,
If you and David want to share this room together privately, I guess that doesn't really concern me.
After all, you might as well continue to work in tandem to derail anything you don't agree with, and why should you start respecting the wishes, requests, and opinions of others now?
I also have to say that you two are a perfectly matched pair and sort of a cute couple the way you finish each other's sentences.
Just clean up after yourselves and turn the lights off once you've both finished.
Mike
It doesn't bother me one way or the other if anyone participates or not, basically I'm sharing what I've found and if anyone wants to comment that's fine, but either way I will continue to share my findings.
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**&^%$#@!
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To save me the agony of going through the 13+ previous pages :P , does anyone know if Sonoma Golf Club (1928-Sam Whiting) should be on this list?
According to their website, "It was Sam Whiting who took the former J. K. Bigelow ranch and fashioned an 18-hole jewel that was first named the Sonoma Mission Inn Golf and Country Club to capitalize on the historic lore and romance of the Sonoma Valley and to serve as a prestigious amenity for the popular resort."
So it was somewhat open to the public but perhaps the resort affiliation keeps it off this thread's list.
It's a lovely place: http://www.sonomagolfclub.com/pages/home.html
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That is what is nice about Tom updating the list as we go along. Anyone can skip the 13 pages and still get the information. I wish I had thought of that.
I think for now the list excludes resort courses. But there are a few privately owned pay-as-you-play courses and I assume there is a blurry area somewhere between the two. This sounds like a resort course, though.
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That is what is nice about Tom updating the list as we go along. Anyone can skip the 13 pages and still get the information. I wish I had thought of that.
I think for now the list excludes resort courses. But there are a few privately owned pay-as-you-play courses and I assume there is a blurry area somewhere between the two. This sounds like a resort course, though.
When it opened,it was an "amenity" for the resort. I think the Sonoma Mission Inn closed during the Depression, so at that point the golf course was probably public. It definitely was purely public when I was a kid and played there a lot (1957-1978). Now it is again a resort amenity, plus having a high dollar private membership.
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Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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To save me the agony of going through the 13+ previous pages :P , does anyone know if Sonoma Golf Club (1928-Sam Whiting) should be on this list?
According to their website, "It was Sam Whiting who took the former J. K. Bigelow ranch and fashioned an 18-hole jewel that was first named the Sonoma Mission Inn Golf and Country Club to capitalize on the historic lore and romance of the Sonoma Valley and to serve as a prestigious amenity for the popular resort."
So it was somewhat open to the public but perhaps the resort affiliation keeps it off this thread's list.
It's a lovely place: http://www.sonomagolfclub.com/pages/home.html
Bill
I'm pretty sure it was a resort course. I've seen it referred to as the Mission Inn GC and Boyes Hot Springs Hotel GC.
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Here are a couple views of the 18th green at Hershey Park. The Pennsylvania Public Links championship was played on the this course for decades.
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Here is an aerial of Pickwick in Chicago which was originally posted by Dan Moore.
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Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba. When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread. It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.
Which board game involves a ball?
. . . kicking over the gameboard OR trying to take his ball and go home.
Yes, I see that. It was an attempt to lighten the mood.
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I've added Montebello Park and Cobbs Creek.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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Tom,
Belvedere was not public when it opened. My recollection was it opened for public play in the 60's but I'd have to go back and check.
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California had an inordinate number of golf courses period for a state of its size. Climate, a lot of available land (and lot of interesting sites), money and vacationers were probably factors. The state had relatively few golf courses through the 1910s, so all that growth occurred during the golden age and they had many talented architects based out there during that time, and the result was a lot of quality golf courses.
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Mike Cirba,
I thought when you threw your last childish fit and stormed off in a huff you invited us to continue on discussing the matter as we saw fit? So why is it that you are still trying to sabotage what has turned into a very interesting and informative thread?
Dan Herrmann,
Yours was in interesting question worth exploring. Why did you delete it? Surely the Philadelphia Posse is at it again, trying to control conversations in which they won't even participate. I am sorry to see you are behaving like just another lackey.
____________________________________
For those that missed it, Dan had asked about the abundance of California Courses on the list. I agree with the reasons Tom mentioned, and emphasize it was largely a matter of timing. The listed California courses opened between 1923 and 1935, near the end of whichever period we are discussing. Had the cut-off been a little earlier, then the Mid-West would have most likely been the stongest region, as almost 1/2 of the public courses in existence in 1920 were reportedly located in the Midwest. Had the cutoff been earlier still, only those cities with very early public courses would be represented.
As for the demographics behind the timing, it is hard to imagine that in 1900 Los Angeles had a population of just over 100,000, less than cities like Paterson NJ, Fall River MA, And St. Joseph MO. The entire state only had about 1.5 million people, less than Chicago. The population really took off thereafter, and much of California was booming in the 1920s, when many of the public golf courses were built.
Also as Tom mentioned, by the time golf design really took off in California, the golden age was arguably at its peak and there happened to be a congregation of excellent architects working in the state. Many of California's great courses became great in the 1920s, and this goes for public courses as well as private. Behr, Thomas, MacKenzie, Bell, and Watson were all designing courses in California during this time, and all designed public courses.
Another important factor was irrigation technology. Much of California was too dry to maintain all grass golf courses without extensive irrigation. As irrigation became more advanced, common, and affordable, golf in California flourished.
I am not sure this is the case, but I get the feeling from looking at some of the old literature, that public courses were viewed differently in the West than in the East. In the East it seems like perhaps there was an attitude among the golfing establishment that while public courses served a purposes, they were by no means anywhere near the quality of the private courses and they weren't really intended to be. In the West, I am not so sure that was the prevailing viewpoint. But then this could be a product of the timing of the respective regions courses.
Ironically, the timing that led to many of the many good municipal courses in California also lead to the creation of many very good private and daily fee courses that ultimately didn't survive the depression and post war expansion.
All that being said, it is possible that California is simply overrepresented on the list. All the courses listed CA courses belong, but I cannot help but think there are more courses out there that should be on the list, but aren't yet. The late edition of a course like Lawsonia seems a perfect example of how an apparently worthy course can almost be overlooked, and I wouldn't be surprised if we come up with others that, in retrospect, will seem obvious.
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Here is a map of Beavertail from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links.
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Tom,
Belvedere was not public when it opened. My recollection was it opened for public play in the 60's but I'd have to go back and check.
This is from the 1926 Golf Course Guide, and it continued to be listed that way through the last Guide in 1931. It was a daily fee course in Fifties too.
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Dan
You must have gotten the memo late. :)
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Back on the first page of this discussion, Kyle Harris tried to turn Mike's hyperbolic boasting into a positive discussion about early quality design. At that point, I responded . . . .
Kyle,
I appreciate your attempts to turn this conversation into something positive, but Mike Cirba has no interest in actually discussing the top pre-1936 public courses in the country, not unless he can easily be twisted into something that fits his agenda.
I'd be very interested in an intelligent conversation of the early quality public designs, but Mike Cirba has no place in that conversation!
Mike, your immature efforts to derail the thread continue to prove me correct. But enough already. Fix the title of the thread and move along.
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Tom,
Beavertail was neither a municipal golf course nor was it a public course. It was a private course that allowed public play. Unfortunately I am away from home and cannot access my files, but I already posted this information earlier in the thread whcih you seem to have ignored. Tilly built it on the private estate of a gentleman (whose name escapes me but is mentioned in my original post), the Golf Club's clubhouse was in the front parlor of his home. He allowed public play simply for the monies it generated. The public came last in every peckingorder and so on the occasions where there was club tournament's or heavy club play the public couldn't get on the course...
I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to...
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Phil,
I don't know anything about Beavertail, but I do know that the list has never been limited to "municipal courses" and has always included pay-as-you-go publics. I think Tom MacWood explained that multiple times. Not that it matters now, but even Mike Cirba indicated that his claim was not limited to muni's and excluded only resort courses.
I am curious, though, as to what other motivation you would expect from a publicly accessible course built on private land rather than that is was publicly accessible "simply for the monies it generated."
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William Flynn did a few public courses. Marble Hall was one of them (not on the existing list on here). Opa Locka, that is on the list was not a public course, it was a golf course built for a development community, in this case the Curtiss concept of the town of Opa Locka.
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David,
As has been typical of you throughout this thread in your replies, you misrepresent what others have stated.
I said, "I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to..."
I'm very glad that Tom has produced a fine list of golf courses that the public played back then. Unfortunately the list contains courses that do not fit with the ORIGINAL TOPIC which is all I stated. Yes, Tom has stated numerous times what and why he has posted his list; you keep ignoring the numerous times that Mike has DEFINED what the topic was that HE posted and THAT is what I was referring to.
I have no problem with Tom's list other than a few instances of courses that I feel shouldn't be included , Beavertail having been one, and that several dates were incorrect.
Since you seem to have now redefined Tom's list, stating that it contain's "pay-as-you-go publics," once again Beavertail does not meet this requirement for two important reasons. First, it was a designed and opened for play as a PRIVATE golf club. When not enough members joined, the owner began accepting public play. Look throughout the thread and there have been numerous courses removed from the list because they started out as private before becoming public, with the word "Municipal" used quite often. The second reason is because even when he allowed public play it was LIMITED. This was a true "Semi-Private" course and the list doesn't include those.
Finally, and one last time, the ORIGINAL title of the thread referred to "MUNI'S" and was changed long ago by Mike in response to comments made by others. MY COMMENT definitely referred to that...
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Phillip, you are all wet on this one. Everything in my post is accurate. The original title of the thread had nothing to do with the list or with Mike's absurd claim about Cobbs. Both Mike and Tom have written that that any such list should include courses open for public play and not just munis. I don't know what distinction you are trying to make and I don't care.
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Tom,
Beavertail was neither a municipal golf course nor was it a public course. It was a private course that allowed public play. Unfortunately I am away from home and cannot access my files, but I already posted this information earlier in the thread whcih you seem to have ignored. Tilly built it on the private estate of a gentleman (whose name escapes me but is mentioned in my original post), the Golf Club's clubhouse was in the front parlor of his home. He allowed public play simply for the monies it generated. The public came last in every peckingorder and so on the occasions where there was club tournament's or heavy club play the public couldn't get on the course...
I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to...
Phil-the-author
I'll be glad to take it off if you can provide the documentation.
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~
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Tom,
For what its worth you should remove Beaver Tail. It wasn't a municipal course. It was actually one of the first semi-private courses, with a private club playing out of the club house while the public was given access of play. It was built and owned by Audley Clarke who was also the President of the Beaver Tail Golf Club. The original "club house," which was used for many years was, the parlor of his own home.
Since Mike's theory is based upon municipal golf courses, Beaver Tail must go as it wasn't one.
It is not a list of municipal courses, it is a list of public/daily fee courses, and Beaver Tail falls under that category. Resort courses and private courses turned public do not qualify. By the way we are still waiting for you to respond to post 174.
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Phil-the-author
I responded to your concern on the 4th of the July. Did you not understand my response?
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David,
As has been typical of you throughout this thread in your replies, you misrepresent what others have stated.
I said, "I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to..."
I'm very glad that Tom has produced a fine list of golf courses that the public played back then. Unfortunately the list contains courses that do not fit with the ORIGINAL TOPIC which is all I stated. Yes, Tom has stated numerous times what and why he has posted his list; you keep ignoring the numerous times that Mike has DEFINED what the topic was that HE posted and THAT is what I was referring to.
I have no problem with Tom's list other than a few instances of courses that I feel shouldn't be included , Beavertail having been one, and that several dates were incorrect.
Since you seem to have now redefined Tom's list, stating that it contain's "pay-as-you-go publics," once again Beavertail does not meet this requirement for two important reasons. First, it was a designed and opened for play as a PRIVATE golf club. When not enough members joined, the owner began accepting public play. Look throughout the thread and there have been numerous courses removed from the list because they started out as private before becoming public, with the word "Municipal" used quite often. The second reason is because even when he allowed public play it was LIMITED. This was a true "Semi-Private" course and the list doesn't include those.
Finally, and one last time, the ORIGINAL title of the thread referred to "MUNI'S" and was changed long ago by Mike in response to comments made by others. MY COMMENT definitely referred to that...
Phil-the-author
I've been following this thread fairly closely and I don't recall this thread ever being about municipal courses. My list was in response to the quote below. As I said I don't believe this thread ever had the word 'municipal' in the title, and if it did I didn't put it there. As you can easily observe I have no control over the title of this thread. Where did you see municipal?
However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
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MacWood:
Opa Locha golf course was part of a "concept" community known as Opa Locka that Glen Hammond Curtiss, the aviation pioneer, created (both the course and the town/community). It became a town in Florida. The golf course was part of a community course and may not have been open to play other than residents of Opa Locka. As such it probably should not be considered a public golf course. You or any other researcher should probably take the time and make the effort to find out about these historic ramifications and distinctions rather than depending on a single word in some golf course listing publication as apparently you just did above? To suss out the accurate historical details of some of these courses one needs to be a bit more research detail oriented than apparenly you are!
I've said it perhaps 25 times on this website, but you are pretty good at coming up with all kinds of trivial and extraneous research material (it appears you seem to think that alone makes you a good researcher/historian ;)) but you have unfortunately been a virtual disaster at analyzing and figuring out what it really means!
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TEP
I'm sorry I don't follow your practice of ignoring the info if it doesn't match your perception or proposed theory.
http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/docs/g/golfcrs.htm
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Thanks for the hyperlink but we actually do contemporaneous historical reasearch on golf courses and their creation histories instead of depending upon modern-day WEBSITES like that hyperlink you just posted and apparently depend on. ;) You're funny, Tom MacWood, as your research and the information you apparenly base your opinions and posts on is laughable.
Who was it again you suggested designed Merion East? Was it HH Barker due to a train trip schedule from New York to Georgia in December 1910???? ;)
Uh Huh, right! Really intelligent research and analysis, THAT!
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MacWood:
Opa Locha golf course was part of a "concept" community known as Opa Locka that Glen Hammond Curtiss, the aviation pioneer, created (both the course and the town/community). It became a town in Florida. The golf course was part of a community course and may not have been open to play other than residents of Opa Locka. As such it probably should not be considered a public golf course. You or any other researcher should probably take the time and make the effort to find out about these historic ramifications and distinctions rather than depending on a single word in some golf course listing publication as apparently you just did above? To suss out the accurate historical details of some of these courses one needs to be a bit more research detail oriented than apparenly you are!
I've said it perhaps 25 times on this website, but you are pretty good at coming up with all kinds of trivial and extraneous research material (it appears you seem to think that alone makes you a good researcher/historian ;)) but you have unfortunately been a virtual disaster at analyzing and figuring out what it really means!
What a joke. TEPaul claims that Opa Locka "may not have been open for play other than residents of Opa Locka" then jumps to "it probably should not be considered a public course."
Based on nothing more than this, he then has the nerve to berate MacWood for sloppy research and even accuse him of being a "virtual disaster at analyzing and figuing out what it really means!" But never mind taking two or three minutes to check the facts. Not when TEPaul is determined to paint Tom MacWood as incompetent! It is much easier to pretend the facts are as he wants them to be, essentially just making shit up!
The problem is that, as usual, TEPaul doesn't know what he is talking about. Opa-Locka was a municipal course, at least according to multiple articles in the Miami papers, including the June 13, 1928 Miami News: "Jimmy Thom was named professional of the new Opa-Locka golf course . . .. The appointment . . . now gives Miami two active munipal golf courses. . .."
One thing is for certain, while TEPaul's attempted criticism completely misses its intended mark, it speaks volumes about his own competence, research skills, and analytical abilities.
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Tom,
I NEVER stated that YOU claimed it was about municipal golf courses. I stated that MIKE originally used the word "MUNI'S" in the title and therefor he wanted to discuss courses of that type. That is the reason for my statement and my disagreement over its inclusion in your list.
I can easily provide the documentation about Beavertail including photos of both the course and clubhouse (private home of the owner). Unfortunateky I am out-of-town and can't access my files. Still, I DID provide earlier documentation for you in this thread on the subject when I first brought it up. I brought it up again because you posted the drawing from Daniel's book and I think that for the simple sake of accuracy it must be understood what the history of the course actually was.
I am not going to respond to post #174 since I have already done so NUMEROUS times. It is disningenuous of you to write that "By the way we are still waiting for you to respond to post 174" when each time that I did YOU RESPONDED to what I wrote. So HOW can you be waiting for me to respond when you know I have. I have no problem at all providing numerous articles that speak to the ssuperiority of the Blue course and, in fact, told you so earlier in the thread. I stopped posting examples because you refused not only to not answer a number of questions I posed to you but ignored them completely despite the numerous times I asked them. And before you ask, you can look them up yourself...
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Well, alright, Moriarty, I will give you the fact Opa Locka could've been legitimately considered a municipal golf course given the fact Glen Hammond Curtiss created the entire MUNICIPALITY of OPA LOCKA (community and municipality of Opa Locka and the golf course) as a "concept community"! But did that mean the course was open to all public play other than those living in Opa Locka?
If that fits into your petty, trivial and no-count argumentations on this particular thread, then go for it! After-all, that's about all you've ever been good for on this website.
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Phil & TEP
This thread was better, more interesting, and more informative when you were posting *. Get with the program.
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Tom MacWood:
Obviously you have an incredibly inflated opinion of your posts and opinions on here, but I'm afraid most have known that on here and for quite some time now.
We deal with the real world, like the clubs and their memberships and friends with these subjects and it seems since you never go to them or get involved with them or establish any kind of relationship with them you never do anything like that and consequently your "community" on here seems to be pretty much limited to David Moriarty which definitely is NOT something any serious or competent golf architectural historian would claim or be proud of! ;)
The bad blood or whatever it is between you two with me, or Cirba, or Morrison, or most of the rest of us here or perhaps Philadelphia generally has been very obvious and I fully admit my interest and intention with you two is to limit and minimize your credibilty wherever and whenever I can, and I expect that will be ongoing. At this point, I feel, thankfully with the help of numerous others, that to date we have been roundly successful in that effort!
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Well, alright, Moriarty, I will give you the fact Opa Locka could've been legitimately considered a municipal golf course given the fact Glen Hammond Curtiss created the entire MUNICIPALITY of OPA LOCKA (community and municipality of Opa Locka and the golf course) as a "concept community"! But did that mean the course was open to all public play other than those living in Opa Locka?
If that fits into your petty, trivial and no-count argumentations on this particular thread, then go for it! After-all, that's about all you've ever been good for on this website.
Wrong again. You just don't get it, do you? It was a Miami municipal golf course, along with Miami Springs. But go ahead and keep throwing insults my way, while at the same time proving you couldn't research your way out of a library.
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Moriarty, the very last thing I ever need to do is even attempt to justify myself or what I do or have done in golf or what I know about golf and golf course architecture, golf administration or frankly anything connected to golf and its history to some insecure little argumentative light-weight nitwit like you!
If you don't understand that or don't think it's true, then let me ask you what in the world have you ever done for a golfer or golfers, or a golf club, golf architectural research, analysis or writing or anything else of the kind?
Don't use this website as your ridiculuous little platform to do whatever the hell it is you think you are doing or can do on here in your petulant attempts to criticize people like me. Get into the real world of golf and when you do just ask around who I am and where I've been and what I know----that is if you even EVER have the vaguest idea who to ask, which frankly I doubt!
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Moriarty, the very last thing I ever need to do is even attempt to justify myself or what I do or have done in golf or what I know about golf and golf course architecture, golf administration or frankly anything connected to golf and its history to some insecure little argumentative light-weight nitwit like you!
If you don't understand that or don't think it's true, then let me ask you what in the world have you ever done for a golfer or golfers, or a golf club, golf architectural research, analysis or writing or anything else of the kind?
Don't use this website as your ridiculuous little platform to do whatever the hell it is you think you are doing or can do on here in your petulant attempts to criticize people like me. Get into the real world of golf and when you do just ask around who I am and where I've been and what I know----that is if you even EVER have the vaguest idea who to ask, which frankly I doubt!
Jeez Tom. This makes absolutely no sense. Open a second bottle a little early tonight?
It is simple. You don't know what you are talking about. Next time you want to attack someone, do yourself a favor and spend three minutes researching the matter first. Is that really an unreasonable request?
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Again, Moriarty, there is no conceivably way someone like me needs to justify anything I say or do on here to someone like you! If you don't believe me then just start asking around to some people who actually are in golf. Your last post with your insinuations about a bottle or whatever is not even worth or deserving of a response from someone like me to someone like you; that's pretty much just the way it is. If you don't believe it, then just try getting actually involved in golf, in a golf club, in committees, with a memberhip, in researching architecture and history FOR clubs and their memberships and in golf administration for golfers and clubs and their memberships. If you did even YOU might actually learn some things, some things about golf, about golfers, about golf architecture, about golf administration and perhaps even about human nature you apparently don't now know.
Have you even begun anything like the foregoing? If you have then please tell me about it and what it is and perhaps I might understand you better.
Try that tack for a change and that may not be a bad start after-all.
And for God Sake's please do not cite as your contribution to golf and golf architecture that ridiculuous essay about Merion entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion." THAT is a total joke to anyone and everyone who has anything to do with that club or who knows its history and membership.
So, what have you got Moriarty? We're all ears, I'm sure.
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What the hell are you talking about?
Let's review: You made up some facts to try and berate Tom MacWood. Ironically, your research was non-existent and your facts all wrong, and your post was only an indictment of you.
From that you lecture me about what, exactly?
You bore me, Tom. Go rant somewhere else so we can get back to what was becoming an interesting discussion.
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What I am talking about Moriarty has nothing whatsover to do with your trivial, inconsequential ramblings on that last post of yours. Read your previous one a bit more carefully, if you're capable, and you may get some glimmer of what my last post was all about.
But do not let me disabuse you in any way whatsoever! My interest and intention on this website and elsewhere, at this point, and until convinced otherwise, and due to your constant insults to me, my friends here and by implication my city and its golf architectural history, is to limit and minimize your credibility with and about golf course architecture wherever and whenever and to whomever I can! And if that impacts negatively what you seem most concerned about----your reputation----let me assure you that is precisely what I intend to do at any time and in any way and with anyone I can.
You deserve it, and not only in my opinion but in the opinions of many both within and without this website, and you continue to prove you deserve it by just about every post you make on here to everyone and particularly those from this city.
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What I am talking about Moriarty has nothing whatsover to do with your trivial, inconsequential ramblings on that last post of yours. Read your previous one a bit more carefully, if you're capable and you may get some glimmer of what my last post was all about.
But do not let me disabuse you in any way whatsoever! My interest and intention on this website and elsewhere, at this point, and until convinced otherwise, and due to your constant insults to me, my friends here and by implication my city and its golf architectural history, is to limit and minimize your credibility with and about golf course architecture wherever and whenever and to whom ever I can! And if that impacts negatively what you seem most concerned about----your reputation----let me assure you that is precisely what I intend to do at any time and in any way and with anyone I can.
You deserve it, and not only in my opinion but in the opinions of many both within and without this website, and you continue to prove you deserve it by just about every post you make on here to everyone and particularly those from this city.
All this because you again spouted off without getting your facts straight?
Go to bed, Tom. You are embarrassing yourself.
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Thankfully the only fact (or in your bizarre terminology "PHACT" or "PHUCKING PHACT") you have ever ACTUALLY enlightened me on is that Wilson went abroad in 1912.
That was an interesting one indeed if one's into trivia, but unfortunately for you, what you tried to USE that inconsequential fact to construe you were both caught at and roundly embarrassed for in the greater world of sophisticated golf architectural interest and understanding.
It seems that is a blunder we caught you up on you will never get over. I can't say I blame you really, knowing you on here, as I do! ;)
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Thankfully the only fact (or in your bizarre terminology "PHACT" or "PHUCKING PHACT") you have ever ACTUALLY enlightened me on is that Wilson went abroad in 1912.
That was an interesting one indeed if one's into trivia, but unfortunately for you, what you tried to USE that inconsequential fact to construe you were both caught at and roundly embarrassed for in the greater world of sophisticated golf architectural interest and understanding.
It seems that is a blunder we caught you up on you will never get over. I can't say I blame you really, knowing you on here, as I do! ;)
More on Merion? Geez Tom, get over it! Either that or finally address the substance in an IMO. Because as it is, my essay stands virtually unscathed.
Besides, I am sure we are all tired on your endless petty and insecure jabs on the topic.
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"Because as it is, my essay stands virtually unscathed."
Yes it does if all one counts is about less than half a handful of people that includes you! ;)
I might've written an IMO if your essay had at least up to ten to twenty advocates and believers but it doesn't that I'm aware of so what's the point in me doing an IMO piece about it?
As I mentioned on here, I considered that when it first came out but that was before all the people we care about and appreciate with architecture read it and saw its illogical transparency. As far as me getting over Merion or not mentioning it in connection with you heretofore, I don't see why I should do that. After-all, I think it's pretty clear on here that THAT ESSAY and your continuing follow-up on this website pretty much defines you!
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Here is Flynn's plan for the 6th at Opa-Locka - a very interesting design, a variation of the Channel Hole at Lido.
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Tmac,
Interesting plan.
I have to wonder if anyone ever went left, though. The short cut looks easier to attain from the tee, and the green may not be guarded enough, IMHO.
Thanks for posting that historic info. If you have more, it would probably be better put on a separate thread discussing architecture specifics of a nice public course, rather than being lost in this overly long thread.
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Jeffrey:
I've always felt the same way about that mirror image hole of Flynn's of Macdonald's Lido Channel hole (apparently Tom MacWood actually read that part of Wayne Morrison's first draft and understood it for a change). It's hard to tell exactly how a particular hole will play out from a two dimensional plan vs seeing the hole on the ground in three dimensions but the point of the Channel Hole (at the Lido) to me was the high-risk option was directly in line with the tee and the green while with Flynn's iteration it is way out to the left where Macdonald's safe play fairway was.
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This is from the 1931 Golf Guide.
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Tom,
That is correct. It is from the 1931 golf guide. It is NOT indicative of the availability for use by the public the day it opened. They weren't allowed.
Once again you misinterpret what you've read and wrongly apply it...
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This is an excerpt from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links. Apparently the course was open for daily fee play from the very beginning.
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Mike
By the way the Salisbury Links on my list has always been dated 1908, the first course of the Eisenhower Park complex was built some time in the teens. Also I added the locations on my list a few days ago and my Salisbury was located in Garden city. I don't believe EP is technically in GC.
I was a little surprised by your confusion, not totally surprised, just a little surprised.
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"This is an excerpt from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links. Apparently the course was open for daily fee play from the very beginning."
Tom MacWood:
If you're offering that blurb and Daniel Wexler's Missing Links description of Audley Clarke's Beaver Trail as evidence that the course was a public course in the same sense that Cobbs Creek, for instance, was a public course, you sure don't know much about Jamestown, R.I. Maybe you should reread Dan Wexler's account of who he said the course was actually opened to. ;)
As I've said many times on here you are a very good researcher of all kinds of old material but unfortunately you're a very bad analyst of the material you find and what it actually means. I suspect that might be because you have almost no understanding of a whole lot of that world back then. It's one thing to just find all kinds of extraneous old material but to interpret what it means you have to first understand the historical context back then to put it into. Obviously you don't even though I would never expect you to admit that.
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Tom,
You'd have us believe that you selected Emmett's 1908 Salisbury course for your list of greatest public golf courses through 1936, even though;
1) It became the private Cherry Valley by 1918
2) It was evidently so accomplished architecturally that it was completely redesigned by Emmett for the CV club before 1927.
You'd have us believe that you were talking about that one even though the subsequent Salisbury CC four-course complex that was created by Emmett in 1916 and beyond included today's well-regarded Eisenhower Park Red course which hosted the 1926 PGA Championship, and whose now defunct #1 course hosted the 1925 US Publinks.
You thought that the Salisbury course on Long Island that hosted the 1925 US Publinks was the same one built by Emmett in 1908, and when I showed you your error, rather than admit that you don't know what you're talking about, you tell us this whopper. THAT is the only reason your list included the erroneous 1908 date from the get-go.
I'm sure you're off now scavenging for some 1908 article declaring that the original course was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that fact it was completely re-designed before 1927 for the private Cherry Valley club tells us clearly that would be incorrect.
There is no point discussing any of this with a man who is not only a poseur, with little actual knowledge of his subject, but who is also now clearly intellectually dishonest.
Mike
Salisbury was not a private course turned public. It was from its inception a public course, and by all accounts a nationally well respected one. It hosted the 1913 Metropolitan Open. The fact that it later became private club has no bearing on this discussion.
You claimed Cobbs Creek was the best, most challenging public golf course built prior to 1936, and Salisbury Links is certainly a worthy challenger.
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"This is an excerpt from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links. Apparently the course was open for daily fee play from the very beginning."
Tom MacWood:
If you're offering that blurb and Daniel Wexler's Missing Links description of Audley Clarke's Beaver Trail as evidence that the course was a public course in the same sense that Cobbs Creek, for instance, was a public course, you sure don't know much about Jamestown, R.I. Maybe you should reread Dan Wexler's account of who he said the course was actually opened to. ;)
As I've said many times on here you are a very good researcher of all kinds of old material but unfortunately you're a very bad analyst of the material you find and what it actually means. I suspect that might be because you have almost no understanding of a whole lot of that world back then. It's one thing to just find all kinds of extraneous old material but to interpret what it means you have to first understand the historical context back then to put it into. Obviously you don't even though I would never expect you to admit that.
TEP
Public courses are not your forte. Daily fee courses were found in all economic strata (see my list).
Was it not a daily fee public golf course?
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"TEP
Public courses are not your forte. Daily fee courses were found in all economic strata (see my list)."
Tom MacWood:
Jamestown, Rhode Island, econonmic strata and all is both a whole lot more MY forte than it is yours, that's for damned sure! ;)
"(see my list)" SEE your list? YOUR LIST??? THAT (YOUR list) is one of the biggest jokes and trivialities that has ever seen the light of day on this website!! ;)
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TEP
Was Beaver Tail a daily fee golf course?
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"TEP
Was Beaver Tail a daily fee golf course?"
Yes it was, but the question is for whom? ;)
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Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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Here is an aerial of Watson's Belvedere.
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This is an article entitled New Ideas in Golf Course Architecture on the new Salisbury Links (Garden City). The article was written by Walter Travis, Country Life (America) 2/1908.
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Tom,
Nice try with the quote from Daniel. Do you actually believe that I am unaware of what he wrote? For certain you show that you read a pre-conceived wrong conclusion into it.
The article that Daniel refers to states that the golf course would "Be open to all summer cottagers and summer hotel guests coming to the island..."
Tell me, where in the phrase "summer cottage and hotel guests" do you read PUBLIC? Doesn't this more aptly describe RESORT? Yes, the original idea that Audley Clarke had was to create a RESORT AREA that would attract people from all over to Jamestown. That is why he is quoted as stating, "I have but one desire and that is to put Jamestowne on the map..."
Your list does NOT include resort courses as being public access. If that was the case, how could you have left out PEBBLE BEACH and PINEHURST and HOMESTEAD and many others of this type that are known to all?
Tom, you are trying to make Beavertail out to be something that it wasn't... a public access course. The locals could not and would not play the course, unless they were members of the Beavertail Golf Club, until Clarke died and bequeathed the farm and golf course to the town. That is why DANIEL HIMSELF concluded by stating, "It as Clarke's ultimate plan to bequeath both the farm and golf course upon his death..."
By the way, instead of using Daniel's drawing which only approximates the course here is an aerial of the course from 1928/29:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Beavertailaerial1929.jpg)
This is the "Clubhouse" of the Beavertail Golf Club (the front parlor of Clarke's house):
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Beavertailclubhouse-Clarkeshouse.jpg)
And for the fun of it, here is the greenkeeper's cottage:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/BeavertailGreenkeeperscottage.jpg)
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Phil-the-author
Although your interpretation is an interesting one I don't agree with it.
Beavertail was not a resort. At one time Clarke considered building a hotel, but that idea never materialized.
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Here is a schematic of Salisbury Links circa 1907. It appears #10 and #8 shared a double green. The course was 6200 yards at the time it converted to Cherry Valley.
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Phil:
Your interpretation (and Dan Wexler's) of Beavertail and Jamestown, RI is entirely correct even though Tom MacWood does not agree with it. He apparently doesn't agree with it because, yet again, he has failed and is failing to put many of these examples into their proper historic context. He probably thinks towns like Jamestown or Newport (across the water) were just like any other town up or down the East Coast! ;)
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"TEP
Was Beaver Tail a daily fee golf course?"
Yes it was, but the question is for whom? ;)
TEP
I don't find it surprising that you two would agree to disagree with me, but it is a little surprising you would contradict yourself in a matter of a few hours.
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"TEP
I don't find it surprising that you two would agree to disagree with me, but it is a little surprising you would contradict yourself in a matter of a few hours."
Do you mean you two (Phil and I) or me too? ;)
There is no contradiction in what I said unless of course you think Jamestown and Beavertail was available to any golfer in the same sense a Cobbs Creek was. There is the little matter of the type of people they were trying to draw there and for what purpose that involved another small matter in the equation that could loosely be identified as "money" but that may not be a concept, historical or otherwise, you're familiar or understand with and within the context of that time and many of those places. If one is going to be a good historian they first pretty much need to understand the "ethos" of certain times and certain places and in that vein with your interest in the history of golf architecture I just don't believe you remotely understand that particular but very necessary aspect. And it shows constantly on here in many to most of the things you say and the endless misinterpretations you make.
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Tom,
Forrest Gump's mother was right... and I'm not talking about chocolate.
That Clarke never built a hotel does not mean that the "public" who were allowed to play it did not have a REQUIREMENT that would enable them to. In this case they HAD to be either a "SUMMER COTTAGER" or a "SUMMER HOTEL GUEST." This did NOT include the local residents who were only able to play if they JOINED AS MEMBERS of the PRIVATE BEAVERTAIL GOLF CLUB!
Clarke most definitely viewed his course as a private golf club which allowed RESORT style play for those "GUESTS" who were TEMPORARY RESIDENTS.
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Tom,
Belvedere was not public when it opened. My recollection was it opened for public play in the 60's but I'd have to go back and check.
This is from the 1926 Golf Course Guide, and it continued to be listed that way through the last Guide in 1931. It was a daily fee course in Fifties too.
Tom,
This is apparently not the first time the Golf Course Guide has been incorrect about dates. The Belvedere Golf Club was formed in 1925 and the course was open for play in 1927. The club's own history states the club was formed as a private golf club. The history does not pin point the exact date they began allowing for daily fee but it was sometime between 1927 and 1965(ish). The history of the club states that there were some financial difficulties around WW2 so, perhaps, that is when it started. I'll ask when I am there tomorrow if someone knows for sure.
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The golf course guide says the club was established in 1925, and it was open to daily fees from the start.
I suspect a lot of these courses were semi-private. They were open to the public, but they also had 'members' who paid annual dues and they had officers so forth. Clubs were also formed within public courses, like at St. Andrews. The Midland Club at Salisbury Links is a good example, there were clubs within Van Cortland Park and Franklin Park too. For the purpose of this thread I'm considering all daily fee courses (except those that were private and then converted to public or those that were dedicated resort courses).
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For what it is worth, I have found the Golf Course Guide to be less than factually reliable in every aspect when seeking information about specific courses. One year they will give one date for establishment and then the next a different one. Yardages are quite often ioncorrect. Most often the information has not been updated as it is an advertisement for the clubs listed and they provide the information. If they send in the check and don't list any changes despite the course having been redesigned then the old information is what is published...
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Phil-the-author
Good point, I've found mistakes from time to time too, which is why it always good to look for other sources to confirm.
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bump
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Here is a good article on Erskine Park. The name sake was president of the Studebaker automobile company, and he donated the land. Albert Lasker, who built the famous Mill Road Farm course on his estate, was present at the opening. He had a close relationship with George O'Neil, the golf architect.
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Tom MacWood:
There is pretty obviously a very large sub-story in what you mentioned on Post #542----eg there were in the beginning a few courses over here that tried to operate on the basic model of St. Andrews which has long had and still has a number of "clubs" that operate independently with and on the same course!
To me the real sub-story to that involves an historic and perhaps cultural reality over there on old courses like St Andrews, particularly its land, that basically does not and never really did exist in this country.
That would of course be what is known over there as "common land." That idea and reality never really existed over here. The closest thing to it, perhaps, were city, state and eventually federal parks.
The entire idea and reality of the American federal park system is quite amazing and is so well explained and articulated by the terrific historic presenter, Ken Burns, in one of his latest works on the American federal park system. It was basically an American invention and it doesn't really exist like we have it anywhere else in the world.
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Tom,
Since you're including all high-end, exclusive resort community courses, you need to add that public course stalwart serving the oft-neglected community of the Hamptons, and add the origninal Montauk Downs course, built in 1927.
Did Newport CC offer some public play for vacationing golfers who drove their yachts into the bay, as well?
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Mike
I consider Montauk a resort. I'm not considering private clubs that offer reciprocal play.
I don't know what you have against wealth or what you perceive to be wealth, but I'm not going discriminate against a daily fee course because it may be in an affluent community (or what you perceive is an affluent area). A daily fee golf course is a daily fee golf course.
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Here is an article on Ridgewood in Cleveland from 1927.
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Here is map of the golf course.
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Tom,
Again, not a thing against rich people, who I'm quite sure were able to easily pay the $3 or $4 per round freight at Montauk.
By contrast, many of the courses I'm calling "public" were either free, or had a locker fee of $1 for the year, or some such thing, but they were meant to be the golf courses for all of the public, not just the upper crust. There is no way the average guy could afford to play courses like Montauk, Cleveland Heights, Pasadena, Salisbury, and other exclusive vacation communities built for the wealthy that you're calling public courses.
I just think you need to be consistent in your comparison, and since theoretically, if as an average American-working guy in 1927 I could somehow manage to motor or yacht out to the Hamptons and over to Montauk, I could then afford a day or two's pay to play, I wouldn't need to stay at the hotel, and could theoretically sleep on my yacht (or the beach) yet walk up and play, so it's not a resort course. I think you should add it.
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Tom,
Again, not a thing against rich people, who I'm quite sure were able to easily pay the $3 or $4 per round freight at Montauk.
By contrast, many of the courses I'm calling "public" were either free, or had a locker fee of $1 for the year, or some such thing, but they were meant to be the golf courses for all of the public, not just the upper crust. There is no way the average guy could afford to play courses like Montauk, Cleveland Heights, Pasadena, Salisbury, and other exclusive vacation communities built for the wealthy that you're calling public courses.
I just think you need to be consistent in your comparison, and since theoretically, if as an average American-working guy in 1927 I could afford to motor or yacht out to the Hamptons and over to Montauk, I could then afford a day or two's pay to play, I wouldn't need to stay at the hotel, and could theoretically sleep on my yacht (or the beach) yet walk up and play, so it's not a resort course. I think you should add it.
Mike
Montauk is not on the list.
Lakeland, Florida and Garden City, NY are exclusive vacation communities?
Mine is a list of public golf course, and I do not discriminate by what you perceive to be high end vs low end.
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Tom,
How are you calling Montauk a resort and not Pasadena, for example? What distinction are you making?
You didn't have to stay at the hotel to play there.
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Because Pasadena was not affiliated with a hotel or resort.
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Tom,
I've already shown that when the hotels stopped funding the golf course at Pasadena, it shuttered it's doors and visa versa.
To say there was no economic connection between the two is to deny their history.
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What article are you referring to?
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Tom,
If this isn't economic dependency I'm not sure what qualifies.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BGoxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zE0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6756,5279995&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ybEtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FdgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5744,1899676&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9ZkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=f1QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3570,1152232&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en
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Thanks for the info on Ridgewood, Tom.
That to me is a public course.
It was not built to sell high-end homes, nor fill resort hotel rooms, at least as it's primary economic and recreational purpose, and had no such economic dependencies.
I'm sure it could be played by the average Clevelander, and it looks to have been a fine golf course.
Do you see the distinction I'm making?
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Economic dependency? You have a very broad definition of what constitutes a resort.
So now we are on to class warfare?
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Tom,
Why keep trying to characterize my points in a negative way?
If only the top 1-5% of golfers in terms of income or wealth could play these places, how "public" were they?
They were simply exclusive resort communities, with a hotel structure (sometimes one, sometimes a few) built in for vacationers, all sorts of recreational amenities including golf, and a real estate component built in to drive and sustain long-term revenues.
I have nothing against it and many courses built in the past 25 years followed the same model. I just find it inaccurate and a little silly for you and David to claim that these were courses built for the "public".
No biggie...it's your list, but I'm just pointing out that it's apples and bananas at present. I also have a hard time understanding your distinctions when you add Beaver Tail and Pasadena yet omit Montauk Downs. Could you explain the differences?
I also think you're the one who is discriminating against the very richest folks with your purposeful and unsubstantiated exclusion of the Hamptons Yachting Set by refusing to add the public course at Montauk Downs to your list. Is this outrage the result of your long-running feud with Tom Paul? ;) ;D
Thank God one of these high-end resort communities wasn't built on the Main Line outside Philly, or I can't even imagine the hurdles the course would need to cross to make your list!?! :o :o ;) ;D
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Hey Tom...where's Marble Hall?
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In the beginning Flynn was one of the owners of Marble Hall. It was open to all golfers except people who owned yachts. When asked why he was discriminating against rich people Flynn said it wasn't that he didn't like rich people, it was just that he didn't like water so by association he didn't like people who liked water. When the reporter asked Flynn why he didn't like water Flynn told the reporter to ask W.C. Fields that question.
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I believe Marble Hall was a private club before converting to public.
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"I believe Marble Hall was a private club before converting to public."
That figures with your track record of architectural historical inaccuracy and misinterpretations. ;)
It was the exact opposite. It was a course created in 1924 for public play. It remained as that for many years until eventually converting to Green Valley, a private club and course. Flynn owned and built Marble Hall and it was for the public and also doubled as something of a agronomic experimentation station with Toomey and Flynn's Metropolitan bent grass (the so-called vegetative planting process). From 1932 to 1941 Toomey and Flynn's primary foreman, William Gordon, managed the facility. In the early 1940s William Gordon founded the Pennsylvania Public Golf Association (PPGA), a golf and tournament association for public golfers.
A trivia point on Gordon: Mr Geoffrey Cornish once told me that had it not been for William Gordon's suggestion he may never have thought to write that wonderful tome on architecture---"The Architects of Golf."
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Tom MacWood,
Tom Paul is correct. Marble Hall was designed by William Flynn with help from Hugh Wilson, and opened as a public course in 1924.
Ironically, it was one of the first true "public" pay-as-you-go courses not started by a municipality, or as part of a high-end resort or resort community.
It was simply a good public course he built and partly-owned out in the Philly Suburbs that today is Green Valley CC. It hasn't changed much over time, except for the usual tree plantings, etc., typical of courses of that vintage in the northeast.
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"Tom Paul is correct."
Cirber:
Would you please try not to state the obvious on here? Of course I'm correct! I'm always correct. I don't think I have ever not been correct. There used to be a rumor that I was slightly mistaken about something back in 1949 but there is no one around anymore who remembers what it was about. I know I certainly don't! Most believe it was just some stupid rumor that emanated out of Ohio or California for some dumb reason.
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"Tom Paul is correct."
Cirber:
Would you please try not to state the obvious on here? Of course I'm correct! I'm always correct. I don't think I have ever not been correct. There used to be a rumor that I was slightly mistaken about something back in 1949 but there is no one around anymore who remembers what it was about. I know I certainly don't! Most believe it was just some stupid rumor that emanated out of Ohio or California for some dumb reason.
To state the obvious, you are wrong about that!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Dale Jackson:
Would you too please try not to state the obvious on here?
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Cirba:
I will make an exception this one time if you insist on stating the obvious on here; The exception is if you want to state that the chances of MacWood admitting he's wrong about Marble Hall or about anything else, for that matter, is less than zilch or that the likelihood he will just try to avoid the subject altogether is better than 110 percent!
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Dale Jackson:
Would you too please try not to state the obvious on here?
Obviously - not!
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Cirba:
I have a few more housekeeping chores for you. Would you please ask Dale Jackson if he would like to join the debating partnership of Moriarty and MacWood, Inc, LLD, IRS, FBI, IOU?
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Tom,
Does Mr. Jackson have a yacht?
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Very clever question, Mr. Cirba! I know there has to be something wrong with the guy; I just wasn't sure what it was. I think you got it----eg he's rich and he owns a yacht.
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Very clever question, Mr. Cirba! I know there has to be something wrong with the guy; I just wasn't sure what it was. I think you got it----eg he's rich and he owns a yacht.
Well, if it gets me in with the esteemed Philadelphia crowd, no price is too large!
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Thank you, Sir; I had every confidence you would come around. You are now In Like Flynn. We will even let you see the hit list of the super secret Philadelphia Syndrome Society and all the dead bodies that are stored in the catacombs beneath the Merion clubhouse.
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Darnit Dale...I was so hoping you already owned one so I could wage class warfare! ;)
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Mike,
I read a small article about Marble Hall Links in Barren Hill Pa. that said it was built as a 'semi-public' golf course in 1925? What do you think they were describing, something we might call a semi-private today?
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Jim,
Yes...privately owned but open to the public.
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Again, Marble Hall was created in 1924, designed by Flynn. It was incorporated with ten stockholders including William Flynn and H.C. Toomey. The original board of directors were; William Warner Harper, E.A. Ballard, George D. Widener, Hugh I. Wilson, Mellville G. Curtis. H.C. Toomey was the original president of the corporation. The course basically doubled as an agronomic experimentation station for Metropolitan bent grass that Toomey and Flynn were heavily involved with developing.
The course had NO MEMBERSHIP and it was strickly a "pay-as-you-play" course for anyone including any and all public golfers (unaffiliated with a private golf club), particularly beginners.
It would remain as Marble Hall for many years until eventually becoming Green Valley GC, a private club and course which it is today.
There wasn't anything "semi" about Marble Hall. It was strictly a course for "pay as you play" golf (Public Golf)
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Here is link to an article on Marble Hall written by Howard Toomey. How good was the course, did it compare favorably with best public courses at the time?
http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1927/2708147.pdf
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"How good was the course, did it compare favorably with best public courses at the time?"
Well, one way you could answer that question is go take a look at the golf course in question for a change, even though it has been changed to some degree particularly due to the relocation of the clubhouse. You could even compare an old aerial to the course today, or you could get in touch with Sean Remington who's the super at Green Valley (the former Marble Hall) and ask him about it. He's registered on this website.
Personally, I would say Marble Hall would have very much compared favorably with the best public courses at the time. It very likely was a course and a design which Flynn ramped up over time because he felt, if given the opportunity, that that was the ideal way to design and develop a golf course (ala Merion East). Since he owned the place obviously he could do that at Marble Hall.
But one of the most interesting aspects of it was it sort of doubled as an agronomic experimentation project as one can tell from Toomey's article. We played a certain amount of local tournaments (GAP) at Green Valley. The golf course definitely has the "bones."
I hope you're learning something about early American public courses Tom MacWood. Marble Hall was an excellent example!
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Here a couple pictures of Gulf Hills designed by Jack Darray.
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"How good was the course, did it compare favorably with best public courses at the time?"
Well, one way you could answer that question is go take a look at the golf course in question for a change, even though it has been changed to some degree particularly due to the relocation of the clubhouse. You could even compare an old aerial to the course today, or you could get in touch with Sean Remington who's the super at Green Valley (the former Marble Hall) and ask him about it. He's registered on this website.
Personally, I would say Marble Hall would have very much compared favorably with the best public courses at the time. It very likely was a course and a design which Flynn ramped up over time because he felt, if given the opportunity, that that was the ideal way to design and develop a golf course (ala Merion East). Since he owned the place obviously he could do that at Marble Hall.
But one of the most interesting aspects of it was it sort of doubled as an agronomic experimentation project as one can tell from Toomey's article. We played a certain amount of local tournaments (GAP) at Green Valley. The golf course definitely has the "bones."
I hope you're learning something about early American public courses Tom MacWood. Marble Hall was an excellent example!
TEP
From what I understand the golf course today is not the same golf course Flynn designed in 1924. The routing is similar but the bunkering is completely changed. The course began with very few bunkers and more were added at some point to give the course some teeth. Do you know when the additional bunkering came in?
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Tom MacWood,
Ridgewood still exists today, in what looks to be about 80% original form. Could you or anyone who has played there describe the course and the land it sits on?
p.s. I forget exactly, but believe that Marble Hall was re-bunkered in either the late 20s or 30s, but the work was done by Flynn.
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Tom,
If you're going to include Gulf Hills on your list, for consistency and accuracy sake you really need to add Montauk Downs and probably quite a few others along the northeastern corridor including Atlantic City CC and Brigantine.
Gulf Hills was a $75,000,000 resort development outside Biloxi where every home in the "community" was built along the fairways designed to attract vacationers and second-home sales. As you know, a lot of these type of communities were/are "public" until the real-estate component is sold off, all the while with everyone knowing that they're buying into a private community once that's accomplished. A hotel, or hotels were almost always part of the deal.
I'm not sure how you can claim that a resort community course like Gulf Hills, and say, Ridgewood or Erskine, or Griffith Park or Marble Hall were in the same category? Can you share the article those pictures came from?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4115/4818251658_09600bc875_o.jpg)
Earlier on this thread Phil Young claimed that my original contention was simply for municipal courses, but that's not quite an accurate understanding. Municipal courses fall into the "public" category, as do other pay-as-you-go facilities like Marble Hall, which were privately owned, but open inclusively and affordably to the public, but were essentially "stand alone" golf courses.
I purposefully excluded resorts like Pebble and Greenbrier, and resort communities are really no different in the least; even Pinehurst had a real estate component. Resort community courses where the greens fee was prohibitive to all but the very wealthiest clientele were public in name only, which is why I made that original distinction.
I really don't think the differences are that confusing.
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The first picture came from American Golfer.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1928/ag316q.pdf
The second picture came from a book by GA Farley called 'Golf Course Commonsense.' Why do you ask?
A bungalow is a small home, and they were for sale within the planned community. Like I said before I don't discriminate, a daily fee course is a daily fee course, it doesn't matter if it is part of existing community or planned community. They are public golf courses; they are not resort courses. Your boast included all public golf courses. Comparing a planned community like Gulf Mills to a Pinehurst, Greenbriar or Del Monte is ridiculous.
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Here is an aerial of Marble Hall circa 1939.
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=5973&CISOBOX=1&REC=2
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A bungalow is a small home, and they were for sale within the planned community. Like I said before I don't discriminate, a daily fee course is a daily fee course, it doesn't matter if it is part of existing community or planned community. They are public golf courses; they are not resort courses. Your boast included all public golf courses. Comparing a planned community like Gulf Mills to a Pinehurst, Greenbriar or Del Monte is ridiculous.
Tom,
Ridiculous comparison? While I appreciate you sharing the definition of a "bungalow" with me, you did forget to define "estates", somehow. ;)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4075/4818959544_07feddc9cd_b.jpg)
Thankfully, they have a spot for the general public to park their yachts. Do you think Howard Wheeler could have plunked down his greens fee and developed his game at this public course in Biloxi? Do you think the factory workers in the cotton mills of Biloxi came down each day at the end of work, clubs in tow, to play Gulf Hills? You might not discriminate, but I bet sure-as-shooting that they did. ;D
You have very strange ideas of what constitutes a public course, and if you're going to include millionaire recreational communities you really need to not leave out the good people of the Hamptons and put Montauk Downs on your list, and probably another dozen or so up and down the Atlantic seaboard that offered "public" golf for the well-heeled vacationer and/or the second-or-third-home yachting set.
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Mike
An esatate is a large home usually found on a large parcel, and not normally associated with resorts. I cannot think of too many resorts that featured estates, can you? On the other hand estates, large homes and bungalows were not uncommon to planned communities.
You've really got something against the upper and upper-middle classes being associated with public or daily-fee golf don't you? Do you believe that public golf should only be the domain of the middle and lower classes? Are you upset that high end public and daily-fess golf courses are today included in the nationally rankings of public golf courses?
Perhaps you should have included a green fee limitation to your original boast.
Cobbs Creek was the best, most difficult public golf course prior to 1936 to charges a green fee of .50 or less.
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Tom
Perhaps planned, upscale, estate communities with parking for Yachts were part of what was known as "public golf" in the bubble housing years of 1996-2008, but you can't be much of a student of history to believe that to be the case in 1895-1930. :-\
And I do know what "estates" are, as well. There are a bunch of them built right across Golf House Rd. from Merion East, built as part of that "planned community". The difference is that Merion was already starting with a full membership,while these courses were built to attract them.
You really have to get over my statements about the economic and social realities of the time as being "against" anyone, Tom. Stating something was a fact does not imply some moral determination either in favor or against that fact. The times were what they were, but as a basis for any discussion in reality we at least have to have some realistic and historically-understood parameters. Frankly, I just think you're trying to divert attention from my questions on how you're actually making your list distinctions by trying to classify my statements as coming from some class warfare mentality. That's just deflection, really.
There were plenty of actual public golf courses before 1930 for you to choose from if you want to debunk my statement, but the courses you named that were resort/real-estate communities for the ultra-rich where only the top 1-5% of golfers could actually play there is a laughable and erroneous comparison. You must not feel very comfortable with your pickings if you have to choose places that were just as exclusive (only this time through pricing, location, and marketing) as any country club of the times, perhaps more so.
Even if we say you're compiling a list that includes courses built after the Depression, as well as courses built for high-end resort communities, how could you possibly name Gulf Hills and Beaver Point to your list yet exclude Montauk Downs and Atlantic City? For your list to have any merit, on any level, you at least need to be more consistent in your application.
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Mike
Have you ever stayed at a resort?
We've already discussed Montauk....remember "operated in connection with Montauk Manor hotel"? And the CC of Atlantic City was a private club.
Here are a couple of aerials of Marble Hall:
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=5973&CISOBOX=1&REC=2
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=4518&CISOBOX=1&REC=1
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Yes, Tom, and at Kiawah and Bandon I stayed in a bungalow.
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Yes, Tom, and at Kiawah and Bandon I stayed in a bungalow.
I stayed in villas at Pinehurst and Pebble Beach. Do you know the one thing all four resorts have in common? Hotel.
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Tom,
Where is the hotel at Bandon?
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I'd mistakenly thought this was a hotel, but actually it is large home in a resort community. How much do these places go for?
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Tom,
Where is the hotel at Bandon?
Uh, about a 15 second walk from the first tee.
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Here is a short article on the opening of the first course at Sunset Fields, and a later aerial of the 36-hole complex.
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Darn, I thought that was the clubhouse. Hmmm....
Ok, let me see if I have this straight.
One Hotel = Resort
Multiple Hotels = No Resort
Bungalow Hotel = No Resort
Lodging along all Fairways = No Resort
Real Estate = Resort or No Resort
Recreational Amenities = Resort or No Resort
Resort Development Community = No Resort
Yacht Parking = No Resort
Do I have this correct, Tom?
Wouldn't it be simpler and more accurate to just identify those courses you can play and stay, particularly those where people vacationed, and particularly those where the ultra-rich of the time vacationed, as resort courses?
How about our rating system?
Aerial Photo from 10,000 feet with lots of bunkers = Good
Aerial Photo from 10,000 feet with fewer bunkers = Bad
Aerial Photo from 20,000 feet with eeery eminence = Better
This is sort of a silly discussion, don't you think?
p.s. Did you see my questions about the public course in Cleveland? Thanks
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Mike
Technically Ridgewood is in Parma. The course sits on nice rolling terrain, typical of N. Ohio. Most of the greens are on rises, hills or ridges, not unlike a Ross course, which is not a surprise since Alves was a disciple. Short by modern standards, but fun.
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Mike Cirba,
Here is a NEW RULE for you: No more snidely manipulating the title of the thread. It is petty and immature. Plus, if you cannot make your point in open discourse rather than by messing with the title, then you probably have no point to make.
Speaking of which, here is another NEW RULE for you: If you have to resort to circituitious speech to try and shift the issue, then your point is invalid to the topic at hand. For example, in the other thread you asked.
Would you consider Rustic Canyon or Griffith Park and Trump National- LA as synonymous courses serving the same public purpose? Or Torrey Pines and Aviara?
Huh?
Your original claim involved public courses, municipal or otherwise, that were not part of a resort. Like Del Monte and Pebble Beach. What the hell does it matter whether or not courses are "synonymous courses serving the same public purpose?" What is that supposed to mean, anyway?
I don't recall anything in your original claim about the necessity that the course only be open only to the poor and the downtrodden.
If that is your latest criterion, then you need to throw out a good portion of your municipal courses, too. Maybe in Philadelphia everyone with any means only played private clubs, but in much of the country people across the social strata played munis and other publics And many of the muni courses served relatively affluent areas and were tourist attractions. And, like with the developments and private courses like Merion, among the reasons they were built was to attract residents to the area.
To answer your original question, courses like Trump and courses like Rustic are not synonomous. They serve different public purposes or at least different sections of the public, in that courses like Rustic provide a place to golf for those members of the public with taste, and courses like Trump provide a place to golf for those without.
But so far as I know they are both open to the public. (Not sure what was originally intended for the course that eventually became Trump.)
Torrey and Aviara are strange examples and they show how foolish your distinction. Which one is supposedly not a "resort community" course? The one on the Ocean in tony La Jolla? Or the one in Carlsbad? I'd have to pay $400-500 to stay in the Hotel, plus play a hefty green fee and resort fee to play either one of them.
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Gentlemen:
I find it hard to believe that this thread has gone to 18 pages (mostly petty animosity) without mentioning, even as an aside, the Kirkwood Links (now Camden Country Club). Designed in 1923 by Walter Travis at 6634 yards, it was a demanding and recognized test. Granted, it had sand greens, but it was Travis's prototype for "undulating" sand greens, the method for which he patented. The Kirkwood links advertised in the American Golfer as a "daily fee" and, from 1903 forward, was available to public play. The 1939 Donald Ross renovation grassed the greens and changed a few holes, but I would argue that Kirkwood/Camden was a very important course in the South during that period.
Jamey
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Tom MacWood,
Thanks for the additional info on Ridgewood. I may be in Cleveland later this summer and was hoping it was worth checking out. Sounds like something I'd enjoy.
Tom/David,
You guys do seem to be struggling with my definition of a public course, and I apologize if I was unclear, and I know some of these areas can be a bit grey.
However, back in the very early 80s, Golf Digest magazine attempted for the first time to put together a list of the "Top 50 Public Courses" in the country, and they didn't seem to struggle at all.
In fact, it wasn't until years later, when for obvious marketing purposes they began to first include all resorts, and then strangely tried to break their listing into the Top 50 Expensive Publics and the Top 50 Cheap publics that things got vey odd indeed.
However, on the first list at least, they did know what a public golf course was, and didn't seem to fall into many of the traps that you two seem to keep tripping into.
We can debate the inclusion or exclusion of certain courses on this list based on quality, but there's hardly a course here that I wouldn't classify as "Public", at least in the 1982 timeframe the course was put together, with the possible exception of Edgewood Tahoe, which probably got on simply through having hosted the 1980 US Publinks tournament, and possibly beginning some of the confusion.
To wit;
FIRST TEN
Brown Deer Park - Milwaukee, WI - 1929
Cog Hill #4 - Lemont, IL - 1964
Edgewood Tahoe - Stateline, NV - 1968
Indian Canyon - Spokane, WA - 1934
Otter Creek - Columbus, IN - 1964
Plumas Lake - Marysville, CA - 1926
Tanglewood - Clemmons, NC - 1958
Torrey Pines South - La Jolla, CA - 1957
Wailua - Kauai, HI - 1960
West Palm Beach - WPB, FL - 1947
THE OTHER FORTY
Alvamar Hlls - Lawrence, KS - 1968
Ancil Hoffman - Sacramento, CA - 1965
Arroyo del Oso - Albuquerque, NM - 1965
Bangor Municipal - Bangor, ME - 1964
Bear Creek - Dallas, TX - 1980
Braemar - Edina, MN - 1964
Bunker Hills - Coon Rapids, MN - 1974
Cranberry Valley - Harwich, MA - 1974
Downing - Erie, PA - 1962
Fall Creek Falls - Pikeville, TN - 1972
Flanders Valley - Flanders, NJ - 1963
Glenview - Cincinnati, OH - 1974
Grand Haven - Grand Haven, MI - 1965
Grapevine Muni - Grapevine, TX - 1979
Hershey Parkview - Hershey, PA - 1931
Hog Neck - Easton, MD - 1976
Hominy Hills - Colts Neck, NJ - 1964
Industry Hills - Industry, CA - 1964
Kemper Lakes - Hawthorn Woods, IL - 1979
Lawsonia - Green Lake, WI - 1929
Mangrove Bay - St. Petersburg, FL - 1978
Montauk Downs - Montauk, NY - 1969
Oak Hollow - High Point, NC - 1972
Oak Mtn. State Park - Pelham, AL - 1974
Papago - Phoenix, AZ - 1963
Pasatiempo - Santa Cruz, CA - 1929
Perdido Bay - Pensicola, FL - 1962
Pine Ridge - Timonium, MD - 1958
Pompano Beach - Pompano Beach, FL - 1954
Rancho Park - Los Angeles, CA - 1949
Richter Memorial - Danbury, CT - 1971
Salem Hills - Northville, MI - 1963
Sleepy Hollow - Brecksville, OH - 1923
Spook Rock - Ramapo, NY - 1970
Stone Mountain - Stone Mountain, GA - 1969
Stow Acres - Stow, MA - 1954
Tokatee - Blue River, OR - 1966
Turnwater Valley - Olympia, WA - 1970
Waveland - Des Moines, IA - 1901
Wellshire - Denver, CO - 1926
The courses were rated based on "excellence of design" and "course conditioning".
According to the magazine, "Some pubilc courses blessed with good design and rich tradition, like San Francisco's picturesque Harding Park and the Black Course at New York State's Bethpage Park have been purposefully excluded because the reports on their current conditioning are negative."
For those who think ratings aren't worth anything, it was reported later that this exclusion of the Black course was the impetus for the later restoration/renovation.
I was also surprised personally to see I'd only played 14 course on this list.
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Mike,
That article did indeed inspire a general improvement to the Black course in the early 1980's. Yet it was a facelift at best and shouldn't be confused with what was done by the USGA nor was it any inspiration for that whatsoever. For example, they left the tree in the front right greenside bunker on 16 that had grown in it for about 10 years to that point. That was removed by Rees...
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Pasatiempo?
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Pasatiempo?
Yeah, Tom, I thought that was sort of an odd one, as well.
I'm not very versed on the history of that course and don't know what type of course it was back in 1929, and even though I played it I don't remember the public/private circumstances because it was in the "King's Putter".
Still, it makes the public lists today, it doesn't include any lodging or real estate components as far as I know, and I guess anyone could just drive up and play there at certain times each day, according to their website.
Here's what it says;
Pasatiempo welcomes public play and accepts two types of tee time reservations: Regular (up to 7 days in advance) and Priority (up to 365 days in advance), which are fully explained below. Since Pasatiempo is a semi-private golf club certain tee times—mainly early morning times on weekends and holidays—are reserved for members.
http://www.pasatiempo.com/web/
What do you think?
How about the rest of the courses on the list? Is it now pretty clear the type of course(s) I was talking about as "public" courses, in that they were not resorts or resort communities?
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Tom,
I may be wrong about Edgewood Tahoe, and from what I've been looking at it seems that the course has no onsite lodging of any type and/or real-estate component, and may simply have just been a public course all along. Perhaps I was thrown simply by the fact that it's in the Lake Tahoe area. What do you think?
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Mike
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. First of all I have excluded all resort courses just as this list has done. Second there are plenty of high end courses on this list. So much for the idea that the list should be tailored only to the lower classes. Third, this list has courses in the resort communities of Lake Tahoe, Kauai and Pompano Beach, so I guess it is OK to have a daily fee course in a resort area. Daily-fee courses in vacation/resort areas are on an equal footing with municipal golf courses. Lastly my list is more selective and less inclusive than this one. This list includes a number of courses that were formerly private clubs. Your claim would look even more ridiculous had I opened it up to those courses.
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Here is an aerial of Max Behr's Montebello Park, along with an article. The aerial is a little hard to make out, but I think you can see the interesting way in which the green complexes are designed and oriented. Most of the bunkering is found near and around the greens, and the shape and orientation of those greens is consistent with Berh's design philosophy at the time, which was very similar to Tom Simpson's.
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Gentlemen:
I find it hard to believe that this thread has gone to 18 pages (mostly petty animosity) without mentioning, even as an aside, the Kirkwood Links (now Camden Country Club). Designed in 1923 by Walter Travis at 6634 yards, it was a demanding and recognized test. Granted, it had sand greens, but it was Travis's prototype for "undulating" sand greens, the method for which he patented. The Kirkwood links advertised in the American Golfer as a "daily fee" and, from 1903 forward, was available to public play. The 1939 Donald Ross renovation grassed the greens and changed a few holes, but I would argue that Kirkwood/Camden was a very important course in the South during that period.
Jamey
Jamey,
Interesting stuff. I recall seeing a letter Travis had written to the City of Pasadena as part of his pitch to design what became Brookside (next to the Rose Bowl) aind in which he propose using the type of sand greens you mention. He also highlighted a Southern course where such greens had been quite successful. I don't remember which course it was, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was Kirkwood. Travis was working with one of the Dunn's at the time, maybe George. He did not get the Pasadena job. It went to local boy, William P. Bell, who built grass greens.
This was the mid to late 1920's and by that time many of the courses with sand greens in California had switched to grass. I wonder if the Travis sand green method wasn't about a decade too late?
____________________________
Mike Cirba,
All that list tells me is they threw about anything in there and are much looser about what is public than Tom.
Industry Hills is part of a hotel and conference center.
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David,
You stated, "This was the mid to late 1920's and by that time many of the courses with sand greens in California had switched to grass. I wonder if the Travis sand green method wasn't about a decade too late?"
Tilly was hired by a number of California courses in the late teens and early twenties to convert their greens from sand to grass. On a number of them he brought Low out to supervise the work... He was not the only architect doing this work at that time.
It appears your supposition is correct.
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David,
Could you please tell us which of those fifty courses you don't consider to be public courses and why?
Please name all you find to be something other than pay-as-you-go facilities available to everyone?
Thanks.
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Jamey
I would have loved to include Kirkwood, but I think technically it was a resort course.
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David,
Could you please tell us which of those fifty courses you don't consider to be public courses and why?
Please name all you find to be something other than pay-as-you-go facilities available to everyone?
Thanks.
Again, your methodology amazes me. You throw out a list and then ask me to go through it and tell you which were public and which not? Shouldn't you have done that yourself? Before you held out the list as evidence your definition of public is correct?
Besides, you misunderstood and/or misrepresented my comment, which was that this list had lax standards compared to Tom's list. I didn't say anything about whether they were really "public." My point is that many of these courses wouldn't qualify for Tom's list. And if they did, your claim would look even more foolish. Not even you would have the nerve to claim that Cobbs was better than Pasatiempo, would you?
Perhaps you meant to ask how the standards were more lax? To only name a few reasons off the top of my head, this list includes former privates (Rancho Park) semi-privates (Pasatiempo and Plumas Lake Country Club) and hotel courses (Industry Hills and Rancho.)
And despite your lame attempt to exclude actual publics because they are located in a "resort community," you have the nerve to conclude that Edgewood is just a public course? Did you forget that you have been trying to exclude all such courses suggested by Tom? If there was ever a public course that doubled as a resort course it is Edgewood, which it is the de facto golf course for the big Tahoe hotels. Plus plenty of the courses on your list are in what could be called resort communities or communities that draw tourists.
Speaking of developments, as for your incoherent exclusion of courses built as part of developments, the list includes those as well. The list even includes Montauk Downs, which might just qualify as as a former private, hotel course, and development course. And contrary to your claim that as far as you knew it wasn't, Pasatiempo was created as part of a large real estate play. "As far as I know" may count as proof where your from, but it it doesn't make it so.
But then that was your approach with the entire list, wasn't it? You would like there to have been a list of purely publics excluding the types of courses you wanted to exclude, and you found this list so you just threw it out there. As far as you knew (which isn't very far) this list was based on the same rules as your list. Hardly compelling research and analysis. But come to think of it, that is your entire approach to most of this material, isn't it?
-- As far as you know Cobbs is the best early public in the country. Never mind that you know little or nothing about many of the best publics of the era. But then that is based on your expertise . . .
-- As far as you know you are the KING of early publics, and claim to have played more early public courses than anyone else in the World!! You don't know anyone who has played more, and that is your idea of backing up the claim.
-- As far as you know, every public course built in the early 1930s was built as part of a depression era recovery program.
About all you have taught us, Mike, is that you don't know nearly as far as you think you know.
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David,
I thought so, thanks for the deflection, ignorance, mean-spiritidness, and disinformation.
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Tom,
You questioned Pasa which was also a eyebrow-raiser to me, but do you know if it was public when it opened, and how would you classify it now?
Thanks.
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David,
I thought so, thanks for the deflection, ignorance, mean-spiritidness, and disinformation.
No deflection Mike. From you question to me it is obvious you did not understand my previous post. So I tried to expand upon it and explain it in terms that you could understand. Besides, you should quit asking others to take care of your due diligence. I am not your research assistant.
As for ignorance and disinformation, I don't think so. If you disagree, then odds are you didn't understand that post either.
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I'm still looking into Pasatiempo. As far as how I would classify it today I don't know, I do know it is a far cry from your recently expressed ideal of inexpensive municipal. In fact a large percentage of these courses do not fall under that ideal and contradict some of your other complaints (daily fee courses in resort areas for example), which begs the question what point were you trying to make with this list?
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Tom,
I would classify a public course as one that is open to the public on a pay-as-you-go basis that is not a resort or resort community, both of which have onsite lodging accommodations, often with a perm or time-share real-estate component. Oftimes, in a resort setting, one has to stay to play, but not always.
For instance, the reason I think Industry Hills made Golf Digest's list of Top Public Courses, circa 1980, is because the just opened (November 1979) course was indeed a public course at the time, with no lodging accommodations on site, or direct real-estate component.
When opened, it was a municipally built course, and although a private concern without direct affilation with the course was building a hotel on the site, I don't believe that ever got finished in the time-frame in question.
I'm still checking the deal with Edgewood Tahoe during that timeframe, but am interested as well as you are to find whether Pasatiempo opened as a public course and will share whatever I find, as well.
Thanks.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4075/4831137436_d2e10f50cb_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4830525219_2fea77b2ce_o.jpg)
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To understand the model Pasatiempo was created with all one has to do is read the biography of Marion Hollins. It most certainly was not created on some model of or for just a municipal golf course.
As for the quality of original architecture I would say Pasatiempo is awesome. I don't know much about the history of California architecture but from what I've seen Pasatiempo is pretty unique.
And, by the way, if after 18 pages you three guys cannot or have not yet decided and agreed upon what the point or purpose of these public course lists are supposed to be my suggestion would be to just forget about it because you probably will never agree. This thread is not much more than an on-going excercise in argumentation with no real productive purpose other than to just argue.
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Tom MacWood,
Of the list that Golf Digest put together in 1980, I can see why they included Industry Hills at that time but would question the inclusion of Edgewood Tahoe, which to me sounds like a resort course, even if open to the "walk-up" public.
The fact that the US Publinks was held at Edgewood in 1980, the first time it went to a course with a large Lodging and/or Real Estate component probably contributed to the blurring of lines.
We also both agree that Pasa needs further discovery.
Any others from that list you'd see as not being a true public course? David seems to think that list is fraught with any and all type of courses; obviously, I don't. I don't think you do either.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4831244248_e91dd23f58_b.jpg)
Tom Paul,
I think we're making slow, steady progress, even if it is like pulling teeth and trying to provide an education at the same time.
If you want to disagree simply for the sake of doing so, however, you've come to the right place. ;) ;D
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Mike,
More with the specious logic, selective reasoning, and your patented "as far as I know" approach to research, where you 'research' just enough to enable you to pretend you have supported your argument.
- You claim Industry Hills had no onsite lodging accommodations. Those familiar with it will get a laugh at that. Did you miss the part in the article about the hotel being 1/3 finished?
- You claim no affiliation between the hotel and course? Poppycock. Did you miss the part about the entire facility (including the hotel) being part of a huge redevelopment plan? The source of money for the hotel has nothing to do with the central role (literally and figuratively) the hotel was to play in the project.
- You don't believe the hotel was ever completed within the timeframe in question? What, pray tell, is the basis for this belief? Surely you are simply posting out your ass once again, making shit up to suit your needs.
- And when a Hotel is an essential component in a Hotel-Golf Course-Conference Center redevelopment plan from the very beginning, just what is the time period in which it must open anyway? More made up distinctions to support an unsupportable claim.
- Explain to me just who the conference center with the 2500 parking spaces was supposed to serve? The Tuesday afternoon Ladies League?
When are you going to learn that you cannot just make shit up to support your claims? We should start calling you "As-Far-As-I-Know Cirba" because that is about as close as you get to actual research and analysis.
From the Pacific Palms Resort website:
Located on a glorious hilltop and set against the majestic San Gabriel Mountains, Pacific Palms is Los Angeles’ only full-service, destination hotel appealing to both leisure and business travelers.
The recently renovated, 650 acre property features 292 beautifully appointed, oversized guest rooms, each with balcony, a variety of food and beverage options including fabulous fireside dining and cocktail seating on the patio overlooking Celebration Lake and a new spa & fitness center. Celebrating more than 25 years of tradition,Pacific Palms also boasts LA’s only 4-star rated golf experience with 36 holes of completely refurbished championship golf on the legendary ‘Ike’ and ‘Babe’ courses.
Just 25 minutes from downtown Los Angeles and centrally located near four major airports and four major interstates, Pacific Palms is Southern California’s finest and most accessible destination hotel and conference center.
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David,
Thanks for making my point and clearing up the timing of the subsequent hotel construction, which clearly was sometime after the course opened in 1979 and more importantly to this discussion, after Golf Digest compiled their initial list of the Best Fifty public courses I listed above.
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TEP
I've read the Hollins biography (I wouldn't recommend it by the way), and the Pasatiempo club history, and neither book details when the club became a daily-fee. What is your point?
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David,
Thanks for making my point and clearing up the timing of the subsequent hotel construction, which clearly was sometime after the course opened in 1979 and more importantly to this discussion, after Golf Digest compiled their initial list of the Best Fifty public courses I listed above.
My God, Mike, are you really this dense? Or are you pulling my leg?
"Subsequent" means after. The hotel construction wasn't finished when the course opened, but the hotel construction was ongoing, not subsequent. More importantly, the hotel was part and parcel of the same development, per the same development plan. This would be obvious if you bothered to actually look into it rather than just guessing. Is their any point, no matter how minor or insignificant, that you will not try to disingenuously manipulate to try and make your argument?
If the construction on the Inn at Pebble Beach had been ongoing when the course opened, would you pretend that Pebble Beach was not a hotel/resort course either?
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David,
Perhaps the "public course" distinction was made by Golf Digest simply because the course(s) were built using public monies in the form of $60 million of tax-free revenue bonds issued by the City of Industry?
Conversely, the hotel that was built and opened in 1982 was privately owned and funded. I would think for legal reasons there would be some separation needed.
But my larger point remains. If I went to Industry Hills in 1979 or 1980, or 1981 and played the golf course (the timeframe Golf Digest came up with their list), there was no lodging accommodations yet available on the property.
What if that private funding dried up? What if they backed out or went under? Golf Digest was supposed to make their determination by some future private plans??
In any case, I don't see why you find my contention about Industry Hills so alarming and shocking? Sheesh...
There are a million reasons why Golf Digest probably made their decision to include it among public courses, differentiating it from Pebble, Pinehurst, Greenbrier, and the like.
I've also identified Edgewood Tahoe as being questionable...are there other courses among the Top 50 they picked that you wouldn't classify as public courses in 1980?
With those very few exceptions, I certainly don't see a lot in there I'd call either resort or resort community courses, which was my overall point.
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I'd mistakenly thought this was a hotel, but actually it is large home in a resort community. How much do these places go for?
TMac,
The label says it an INN. I stayed there last year and it is part of the Bandon property. It has no restaurant, but it does have a cocktail area, staffed part time. For dinner, you walk across to the clubhouse.
David,
As to the debate at Industry Hills, I note that the hotel was being built with private funds while the golf course was built with tax free bonds, sold by a private investor from San Berdoo, but obviously city backed if they are tax free. So, in this case, I agree with Mike C based on my experience in the biz.
I suppose you guys could argue about anything, but that IMHO makes IH a public course with an adjacent hotel trying to take advantage. Of course, the hotel sits on leased city land making the distinction even more difficult. I think we have to accept that then as now, public golf comes in a few different forms, some of which are hybrids of public-resort, public-private and even resort-private.
TMac has produced a nice and probably imperfect list. He hijacked the thread from Mike for other reasons, but diligently works to make the list the best he can. Its not beyond criticism, but in that he can join the club of Golf Digest, Golf Week and others who have also tried and failed, so there is no shame in that.
Oh well, what did I expect. ::)
Have you guys taken my suggestion and taken some personal measurements of sensitive areas so we can declare a winner once and for all?
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Jeff,
Since this thread was hijacked, I tried to sit this one out for some time, but finally decided that I might as well come back to help because there were a lot of things that were simply inaccurate.
We've gone so far afield from my original contention to be absurd, but I do think we've also uncovered a fair amount of early public course history, so I guess that's ok, and I'm happy to help in any productive endeavor related to golf course history.
I wanted to talk about courses prior to the Depression; these guys wanted to include them all. I wanted to talk about strictly public courses; again they wanted to include places that were clearly simply second-home resort communities for the very wealthiest.
In either case, these are courses well beyond the scope of anything I'd ever contended, so I'm not sure why they persist, but oh well...
At least in recent weeks I hope this thread (although I had asked Ran to kill it some weeks back to put it out of its misery, but that's his call) has shed slightly more light than heat, but that's up to others to determine.
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Mike,
You and TMac seem to be playing nicely, and are more civil when discussing facts and less civil when there is the occaisional tweak of the nose, which come more from the left coast now.
I could see your logic of talking about public course developement in the roaring 20's in a mostly private club development era. I could see a discussion on public courses in just the teens to get the ball rolling. For some reason (which I think he articulated, but which I have forgot) TMac insisted that it ONLY made sense to take it up to Bethpage. I could also see that logic, but on the other hand, what if somone wanted to discuss the differences of public courses built in the 1990's, 2000's and 2010's based on economic factors? The conditions surrounding those are entirely different, and different enough to warrant a distinction.
Sometimes, I think we all sort of compress the old days into one big era, when in fact, there were many little sub eras. Certainly the depression was different than the Golden Age in gca public or private. If he wanted to break it up differently, then maybe he should have started his own thread. I guess this one was useful enough for his purposes and it has provided some value, IMHO>
Cheers to all. I am hibernating again.
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I don't believe there should be a distinction between a hotel (Carolina or Rancho), manor (Pocono or Montauk), inn (Ojai Valley or Ponte Vedra) or lodge (Del Monte or Keltic), they are all resorts. Its not that complicated. By the way I always play nice.
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TMac,
You generally do play remarkably nice given the abuse you take!
My point was that some would differentiate between hotels or other lodging by others on publicly owned courses and hotels by the same owner on privately owned courses. Fine distinctions can complicate it for some.
On the other hand, if it only matters to the walk up golfer how much he pays, what restrictions there are to play, then ownership doesn't matter. Mike points out that GD used to have resort and public, but now its over $50 and under $50, since they got frustrated trying to decide, too.
Hey, its your list on Mike's Thread so knock yourself out. I do enjoy the list.
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"TEP
I've read the Hollins biography (I wouldn't recommend it by the way), and the Pasatiempo club history, and neither book details when the club became a daily-fee. What is your point?"
Tom MacWood:
My point was only that as I understand it from the Hollins biography Pasatiempo was an upscale resort of a pretty large scale by Marion Hollins and the golf course was not created just as some "pay as you play" golf course (municipal and public) which I thought was supposed to be the criteria of this thread before 1936 or whatever.
But I do admit I have no real idea what you three are arguing about now nor do I care. It all seems pretty pointless. I mean just look at Moriarty's two posts today (#622 and 625). It's the same old insulting crap with Cirba he's been doing for years now. It seems the only thing you two guys are capable of on here is arguing with Cirba for reasons that are almost impossible to understand except just to argue with him.
Other than that, why would you not recommend Marion Hollins's biography?
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Mike
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. First of all I have excluded all resort courses just as this list has done. Second there are plenty of high end courses on this list. So much for the idea that the list should be tailored only to the lower classes. Third, this list has courses in the resort communities of Lake Tahoe, Kauai and Pompano Beach, so I guess it is OK to have a daily fee course in a resort area. Daily-fee courses in vacation/resort areas are on an equal footing with municipal golf courses. Lastly my list is more selective and less inclusive than this one. This list includes a number of courses that were formerly private clubs. Your claim would look even more ridiculous had I opened it up to those courses.
Tom MacWood,
I somehow missed this post earlier, but I think it is an interesting one to draw distinctions, and I'd like to address each of your points if I might.
First, let me again try to define what I see as a "public course" for purposes of discussion. I would classify a public course as one that is open to the public on a pay-as-you-go basis that is not a resort or resort community, both of which have on-site lodging accommodations, often with a perm or time-share real-estate component. Ofttimes, in a resort setting, one has to stay to play, but not always.
To your first point, I don't agree that you removed all resort courses from your list. When a course like Pasadena requires funding from the adjacent hotels to even open for the year, there is a clear economic dependency. When a course like Beaver Tail is built for simply vacationing ultra-rich with places to park their yachts, or Belvedere as a mostly private club allowing play for golfer's staying at hotels in the resort town of Charlevoix, I definitely see them as falling more into the resort or resort community side of the equation.
Second, there are very few high-end courses on the Golf Digest list, even if you tried to make it appear so.
In the case of Edgewood Tahoe, I believe I was the first one to call that course into question, and speculated that it must have been because of hosting the 1980 US Public Links tournament, but that course to me is clearly in the resort mode.
However, the others you listed are not high-end at all, as they are all simply municipal golf courses in resort towns, all offering very affordable golf for the local populace as well as visitors.
Here's some websites to compare pricing, access, and most importantly, the lack of ties to either real estate development and/or lodging accommodations.
First in Hawaii;
http://www.kauai.gov/default.aspx?tabid=66
Then, Pompano Beach;
http://www.mypompanobeach.org/parksrec/golf/index.html
Or, even West Palm Beach, which is a very fine Dick Wilson design I played just by walking up and paying a very modest fee;
http://jcdsportsgroup.com/west_palm_beach/
So, I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make about the list being "high-end", or what other courses you think fall into that category, as virtually every course on the list is a stand-alone golf course facility, mostly municipals, without either real-estate components and/or lodging accommodations.
Finally, you say that a number of these courses are public's that had formerly been private, and some of them are. But you also say that you purposefully omitted such courses from your list and that adding such would make my contention "even more ridiculous".
To that, Tom, I'd say let's list them. Please tell me the courses that were formerly private but became public before 1930 that would have been competition for my claim about Cobb's Creek, because perhaps I'm having a brain freeze but can't think of any off the top of my head. There have to be some, but right now I'm thinking there are more early public's like Salisbury Links that became private, often after the initial real-estate offerings were sold.
Jeff,
The fact that you agree that these things don't fit neatly into some broad categorization called "the Golden Age", but instead were made up of different periods, such as the earliest days, the WWI years, the roaring 20s, the crash, the depression years, etc., gives me reason to continue the discussion because I think those distinctions are fundamentally important to a true understanding of what transpired during that time. Thanks for chiming in.
Tom Paul,
I don't know...I think Tom MacWood and I are generally having a nice discussion at this point, even when we don't agree. The rest of the periodic insults flying in from left-coast-field are just the usual stuff you can find starting back on page 1 of this thread, so perhaps I've gotten used to it.
Besides, if Sir Jeffrey sees some value here, then I don't mind adding some clarifying points and detail around the courses in question.
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"Tom Paul,
I don't know...I think Tom MacWood and I are generally having a nice discussion at this point, even when we don't agree. The rest of the periodic insults flying in from left-coast-field are just the usual stuff you can find starting back on page 1 of this thread, so perhaps I've gotten used to it."
Mike:
That is just so nice to hear you think you and Tom MacWood are now generally having a nice discussion. :)
For your edification, I suppose some to most on here think we lump MacWood and Moriarty into the very same boat. While I have, and I know you do too, have some pretty fundamental problems with both of them, I most assuredly do not put them into the very same boat and it seems you don't either. MacWood is a strange one for sure with a sort of passive/aggressive approach most always cloaked in a passive tone and approach on his posts while Moriarty seems just aggressive/defensive and insulting just about all the time, particularly to you and me and anyone else from Philadelphia or anyone who agrees with us. ;)
I don't see Moriarty as even half the raw researcher that MacWood is even though he may be a better historical analyst than MacWood which frankly wouldn't be hard for anyone to be.
As for what this particular seemingly public course thread is actually accomplishing after almost 20 pages, I'm sure I haven't a clue other than to offer the opportunity for some to make irrelevent points and offer irrelevant material.
But I do fully admit, public golf architecture is definitely not my bailiwick, but I do recognize it is yours and always has been and to see a couple of petty arguers like MacWood and Moriarty accuse you of the things they have on here seem pretty obnoxious to me. Frankly the latter is the only reason I ever make posts on threads like this one.
By the way, Tom MacWood's commentary on Post #609 is totally hilarious. I'd challenge even an experienced NSA aerial spy to be able to pick up on that particular aerial what MacWood seems to claim he can! ;)
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Jeff Brauer,
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I don't think Industry Hills should be considered a public course. Whether hotel course, municipal daily fee, or whatever, I consider any course public if one can walk up and pay to play. Since I've wasted money to play Industry Hills, I have no objection to you, Mike, Golf Digest, or anyone else calling it public.
But to pretend it is not a golf course (public or otherwise) not associated with a hotel is ludicrous. The above article was literal when it mentioned that the hotel would rise above the project The pro shop and starter are and always have been located within the hotel facility, along with the conference rooms, restaurants, and bar. If I remember correctly, one can walk down a hallway from the pro shop and into the hotel lobby and take a elevator up into the guest tower. I am not sure how one could more closely incorporate a hotel into a golf course, both physically and functionally.
By the way, the land use (golf course) component was intended to clean up or at least cap what was essentially a giant dump. It is a very strange place, with the golf courses built in layers down the perimeter of a big round mound and the hotel sticking up from the highest point like the figurines on a wedding cake.
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Mike Cirba,
I don't find your position on Industry Hills "alarming or shocking." I find it typical in that it is strongly held despite the lack of support and accuracy.
You must have missed my question, above. If construction of the Inn at Pebble Beach was still ongoing when the golf course opened, would you pretend that Pebble Beach was not a hotel course?
______________________________
Tom MacWood,
How many times to you suppose TEPaul has changed his mind about which one of us is the worst of two evils? Perhaps he dislikes me more when he is drunk or hung over on California wine, and he dislikes you more when he is drunk or hung over on anything else. Or would it be visa versa? Oh well, I take his distain as indication that I must be doing something right.
More seriously I was curious about one course on mostly abysmal Golf Digest list Mike posted. Wellshire in Denver, 1926 Ross? Do you know anything about it and should it be on your list?
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David,
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that my response was in response to your response, or that I give a damn about your opinion in this!
I think my understanding of what some might differentiate (and others not) between a resort and public course is completely laid out in my posts, but I won't start the insults by calling one opinion over another ludicrous, etc. I understand that your opinion of IH is from a golfers perspective, and understand that.
As I mentioned, others might make finer distinctions for different reasons, not of Industry Hills, but of privately owned golf courses, with hotels directly affiliated under the same ownership. Hotels with a golf course on property more easily book outings and groups than hotels with "access" to a public course. So, sometimes, the distinction of a golf course owned and controlled by a hotel rather than adjacent to a hotel but under public or other control truly makes a difference in how it is run and marketed. (and how easy it is to access by walking up)
Thanks for the backgrounder on IH, which confirms what I already knew, but I appreciate the effort since you wouldn't know what I know about California golf courses.
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David,
I think my answer to your question was very much self-evident in my response about Industry Hills, and the differentiation between public, municipal funds used to build the golf course(s) versus the private funds used to build the subsequent hotel.
I think that's a very real distinction that Golf Digest probably used, and the fact that the hotel wasn't even open the first three years the course was in play (which is when GD did their listing) contributed to their classifying it strictly as a municipal public course, not a resort.
I got the feeling from the intensity of your earlier responses that you didn't like Industry Hills at all as a golf course, and were probably at least partially irritated that GD saw fit back then to honor them. As such, I couldn't tell if you were just being your usual self in responding because it was "me", or because of some combination of me and the golf course and I must say it's a bit of a relief to at least know you hate the golf course, and at least some of the vehemence of your last few responses has been due to that.
Regarding the "mostly abysmal" list I posted from Golf Digest, what exactly are you using as your measuring stick, if I might ask?
How many of the courses on that list have you seen or played?
p.s. Wellshire was formerly private, but opened to the public some time later, as someone informed me when I had it on my own list of pre-1930 courses.
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Jeff,
Your previous comments about IH were addressed to me, so please pardon me for thinking they had anything to to with what I had previously written. I should have known better around here.
I do apologize if using the term "ludicrous" offended you. It wasn't my intention. I am just dumbfounded to be arguing about this, because to my mind the connection between the hotel and golf course at Industry Hills is a matter of fact, not opinion.
For all practical purposes this is what you describe as "a hotel with a golf course on property" where the hotel largely controls outings and groups and the ease at which one can walk up and play. The technicalities have varied slightly as different managers and hoteliers have come and gone, but this was essentially the idea from day one.
My knowledge of these types of public/private redevelopment projects generally and this one in particular goes beyond just having played there, but a visit to the place would probably be enough for you to understand my frustration that this discussion is even taking place.
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Mike Cirba,
See my comments to Jeff about the "Industry Hills at Pacific Palms Resort."
As for your list, I played four of the top ten and a handful of the others. So "mostly abysmal" was definitely an exaggeration on my part. My opinion of the list is loosely based on the inclusion of poor courses like Ike and mediocre courses like Ancil Hoffman, Plumas, and Torrey South, and the exclusion of better courses in the area like Santa Anita and Sandpiper, and the general incoherence of comparing semi privates with hotel courses with muni's, etc.. Also, the article on IH reminded me of just how important difficulty was to supposed determinations of quality at the time, and that combined with my general disrespect for magazine ratings probably didn't help matters much.
The reality is that I don't know much the merits of the list outside of a pretty good sampling of the Western courses. I don't like lists, although I do think Tom M's is one of the better ones I have seen.
Now, are you going to answer my question?
If construction of the Inn at Pebble Beach was still ongoing when the golf course opened, would you pretend that Pebble Beach was not a hotel course?
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David,
We can agree to be dumbfounded together. Here is what I wrote you:
David,
As to the debate at Industry Hills, I note that the hotel was being built with private funds while the golf course was built with tax free bonds, sold by a private investor from San Berdoo, but obviously city backed if they are tax free. So, in this case, I agree with Mike C based on my experience in the biz.
I suppose you guys could argue about anything, but that IMHO makes IH a public course with an adjacent hotel trying to take advantage. Of course, the hotel sits on leased city land making the distinction even more difficult. I think we have to accept that then as now, public golf comes in a few different forms, some of which are hybrids of public-resort, public-private and even resort-private. [/b]
Nowhere did I say I didn't think it was public, nor that you didn't think it was public, did I? It seemed to me your response sort of flipped my post 180 degrees and then started arguing about it, even though we basically agreed on that, too! I have a hard time figuring I would draw any ire by saying "its complicated, with shades of gray."
As I said, in my experience it can make a difference in perception, marketing, operations, although I honestly don't know how it affects IH. Some examples in my portfolio include:
- Cowboys (privately owned and funded, on leased city land, city is a partner, so citizens get discounted fees, but with preferential arrangements with four local hotels for prime tee times, and a membershsip component) The biggest is the Gaylord Texan who cancelled plans to build their own golf course across the street, and who pointed out the vast marketing difference to having their own and having ability to accomodate (I designed their now flooded out course in Nashville, too)
- Giants Ridge (publicly owned, with a publicly owned hotel on property, leased to a private operator with signifigant tee times advantages in their agreement)
- Fortune Bay Resort (casino owned hotel and golf course, but with lots of public play and only slight advantage to staying at hotel in making tee
times
Numerous public courses that put fliers in all the local hotels and may even.
Anyway, short point is they all vary. And they may try to play up, hide or conceal, or play down the relationship to any nearby hotel depending on political reasons. If Golf Digest had trouble distiguising resorts from publics, then it is certainly not ludicrrous to see how others could have trouble making the same distinction, is it?
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I don't know Jeff, and it doesnt matter to me to be honest. You wrote you agreed with Mike about IH, and you wrote "I guess that makes IH a public course with an adjacent hotel trying to take advantage" and maybe I took this to mean that you thought it public and that the hotel wasn't part of the deal, and I thought it was private because the hotel was more closely affiliated that you said. All I am saying is, private or not, the hotel there was very and is very much connected to the golf course. Not affiliated, but directly connect, by location and function.
But again, I don't give a damn. That is what is wrong with these distinctions and why I originally objected to the ever increasing limitations Mike wants to put on his original statement that got all this going. After a while it is splitting irrelevant hairs, but I guess that is what he has to do to continue to try and make his claim make sense.
I think we'd be better off if he would just forget about defending Cobbs-- I think Tom and I have long considered that battle long over-- and see where Tom's list takes us without bogging it down by claiming one hotel course is okay while another isn't.
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"I am just dumbfounded to be arguing about this, because to my mind the connection between the hotel and golf course at Industry Hills is a matter of fact, not opinion."
Then why are you arguing about it, David Moriarty? Why do you continue to argue about it with Cirba and others? ;)
"I think we'd be better off if he would just forget about defending Cobbs-- I think Tom and I have long considered that battle long over-- and see where Tom's list takes us without bogging it down by claiming one hotel course is okay while another isn't."
Why should Cirba forget about defending Cobbs Creek? And what is this "battle" you're referring to? Did Cirba start some BATTLE? Or was it you and MacWood, AGAIN, because it was Cirba----and Philadelphia, and its courses, architects, blah, blah, blah, ad infinitum with you two and for years now?
Frankly, if you and MacWood in your entire careers with golf architecture had done 1/10th of what Cirba has done in his on-going efforts with Cobbs Creek, the two of you might actually have something concrete to be proud of with GCA!
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I don't know Jeff, and it doesnt matter to me to be honest.
But again, I don't give a damn. That is what is wrong with these distinctions and why I originally objected to the ever increasing limitations Mike wants to put on his original statement that got all this going. After a while it is splitting irrelevant hairs, but I guess that is what he has to do to continue to try and make his claim make sense.
I think we'd be better off if he would just forget about defending Cobbs-- I think Tom and I have long considered that battle long over-- and see where Tom's list takes us without bogging it down by claiming one hotel course is okay while another isn't.
Now David...I know you're often dour and humorless here, but you have to admit, this one is precious! ;D
You don't like lists, do you?
Then what the hell have you and MacWood just spent the last 20 pages trying to compile?!?!? ;D
I start a thread on Hugh Wilson's involvement with public golf all his life based on some new findings that Joe and I had in that regard, specifically about Juniata GC. Tom MacWood takes the first swipe asking if his involvement in these courses besmirched his reputation.
You then take a rebuttal statement of mine saying UNTIL the Depression, with the SUBSEQUENT creation of Bethpage, many observers felt that Cobb's Creek was the best public course in the country, and you and Tom MacWood decide to try and rip me a new one.
It didn't matter that I quoted news accounts from competing cities, quotes from former publiniks champions, articles stating that the course was "Famed" in freaking Waterloo, IA, or anything else...no evidence would suit you both.
Fine.
So, instead, and obviously very uncomfortable with your arguments, you and Tom then completely hijack the thread and spend the next several weeks COMPILING A FREAKING LIST! ;D
The list goes through various iterations, and corrections, simply because it wasn't based on any first-hand, or second-hand knowledge, but because it was being researched and written ON THE FLY, using 1950's travel guides, and other such nonsense.
Despite my clarifying the timelines about 500 times, you and Tom persist on adding courses built in the 1930s, simply because neither of you felt your list pre-Depression had any heft.
Then, Tom finds a bunch of courses built on millionaire housing developments, and onsite lodging, and hotels, and yachting slips at places like Beaver Tail and Pasadena and Gulf Hills and remarkably says those courses were public too, obviously trying to sweeten a losing hand.
Every day for weeks the list evolves.
Courses are added, courses are dropped.
Each day, the thread drops off the first page of GCA faster than a bloated calf dropped off a skyscraper due to zero interest among the participants here, only to be dutifully resurrected each morning by Tom MacWood with some new aerial of some course taken from 10,000 feet that we're supposed to see as relevant because it either has lots of bunkers or some name-dropped architect, along with yet another iteration of the list that's supposed to be actually making some point, but instead is like some Dale Griffith-ish monologue... a GCA version of the Filibuster.
And then, at the end of weeks of this, with absolutely no arrows left in your quiver and a list that's really just a plethora of different kind of courses across a meaningless extended timeframe for comparison that's much ado about nothing, you state that this would never have happened if I had simply stopped defending Cobb's Creek, and that you hate lists! :-*
Priceless. You couldn't make this stuff up. ;D
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Here are three Florida courses on the list - Jacksonville (Donald Ross), Pasadena (Stiles & Van Kleek) and Mt.Plymouth (William Clark).
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Tom MacWood,
How many times to you suppose TEPaul has changed his mind about which one of us is the worst of two evils? Perhaps he dislikes me more when he is drunk or hung over on California wine, and he dislikes you more when he is drunk or hung over on anything else. Or would it be visa versa? Oh well, I take his distain as indication that I must be doing something right.
More seriously I was curious about one course on mostly abysmal Golf Digest list Mike posted. Wellshire in Denver, 1926 Ross? Do you know anything about it and should it be on your list?
Over the long haul he dislikes me worse, over the short haul he hates you more. But on the positive side I can't think of anyone I'd rather be disliked by.
Wellshire was a private club that went public.
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Tom,
Although the picture isn't very appealing, you seem so excited that I almost hesitate to inform you that just like we earlier saw with Pasadena, a course that couldn't even open for play without funding directly from the adjacent hotels that supported it, Mt. Plymouth was also a resort course with a hotel.
If you're going to include those type of courses, you need to stop your prejudicial omission of the original Montauk Downs course at the tip of Long Island, because I'm quite sure the good folks in the Hamptons are getting pretty pissed at this point! ;) ;D
Or is it because the architect, Capt. H.C. Tippetts, doesn't carry enough name recognition among those here with only a passing interest and therefore has little political capital for your purposes? ;D
On the plus side, Jacksonville Muni looks pretty good in that picture, and it seems like it was probably a good choice to host the US Public Links tournament there two years after Cobb's Creek hosted at the height of the Golden Age of Design in 1928.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/4835810427_e5daaf0c31_b.jpg)
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What is the date on the article?
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Fitchburg (MA) Sentinel, December 6th, 1926.
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I've removed Mt. Plymouth.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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Tom MacWood:
What course is that photo you posted labeled Jacksonville (Donald Ross)? I didn't know Ross did a course, public or otherwise, known as Jacksonville. Would that one be Timaquana in Jacksonville? If it's Timaquana I have a lot of personal interest in that one as my father spent a lot of time at that course after the war with the likes of some real characters like the famous Lafune brothers, a couple of great American Indian professionals.
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Also, Tom MacWood, please refresh my memory since the ins and outs of this particular thread are so hard to follow-----what is the point of this on-going list of yours?
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Tom Paul,
It's not Timaquan...Ross also designed a municipal course for the city of Jacksonville around 1924, which hosted the US Public Links tournament in 1930.
I'm not sure what happened to it over the years... perhaps others can shed some light.
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"Tom Paul,
It's not Timaquan...Ross also designed a municipal course for the city of Jacksonville around 1924, which hosted the US Public Links tournament in 1930.
I'm not sure what happened to it over the years... perhaps others can shed some light."
Tom MacWood:
OK, thanks. Klein did not seem to cite it in his book that I can see. Any idea why? Did Ross cite it in any ads or career inventory list he ever did and if not why do you suppose that is? If he didn't why do you believe it was Ross?
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Tom,
It's tough to keep up with your adds, moves, deletes, and changes, but if your list is to have any basis for comparison to my original statement this is as close as I can get, with the caveat that I haven't given every remaining course on your list the "resort test", in the interest of time and sanity.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Anytime you'd like to discuss any of these courses in actual architectural detail, or reputation, or comparison with any other courses of the time, please just let me know.
I've been waiting patiently.
As I said, it seems to me that California is the most likely contender.
Tom Paul,
I've found documented newspaper evidence that Ross designed the municipal course in Jacksonville.
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Jacksonville Muni, featured in Lost Links (Brentwood).
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Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
What courses have you disqualified, and why?
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Tom Paul,
This from the December, 1924 Washington Post;
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/4835963233_ea0d7648ef_o.jpg)
Tom MacWood,
We're getting redundant, don't you think?
The omitted courses are anything after the Stock Market Crash of 1929, which is generally acknowledged as the start of the Great Depression, and other courses here that we've discussed where I believe they were more in the resort category, such as Pasadena, Beaver Tail, Gulf Hills, Cleveland Heights, Belvedere etc.
You can freely disagree, but I've stated and documented my reasons why I feel that the comparison isn't valid, so I really don't want to argue the same points.
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Why is Cleveland Hts. excluded?
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In the interest of trying to make this thread perhaps more productive and educational, I thought perhaps this December 1924 listing of all courses in the south (almost all, even private clubs, were available for a fee to those who could afford to go south to vacation destinations during the winter) might provide some historical value.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/4836602534_18cd263ff4_o.jpg)
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Why is Cleveland Hts. excluded?
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"Tom Paul,
I've found documented newspaper evidence that Ross designed the municipal course in Jacksonville."
Tom MacWood:
You have? Haven't we heard that one before from you such as HH Barker designed Merion East or Willie Campbell designed Myopia or Robert White designed North Shore? ;)
Can we see what the 'documented newspaper evidence' is so we can discuss it and consider what it might mean or is that too much to ask of you?
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Mike Cirba:
Interesting list you posted on #858. Too bad it didn't list who the archtiects were.
And I would reiterate MacWood's question---eg--what about Cleveland Heights? Could it be it wasn't public or could it be that this type of documentation really isn't all that historically accurate?
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"Tom Paul,
I've found documented newspaper evidence that Ross designed the municipal course in Jacksonville."
Tom MacWood:
You have? Haven't we heard that one before from you such as HH Barker designed Merion East or Willie Campbell designed Myopia or Robert White designed North Shore? ;)
Can we see what the 'documented newspaper evidence' is so we can discuss it and consider what it might mean or is that too much to ask of you?
I think you may have mistakenly attributed the quote above to me, but whoever the source that person obviously knows something of Ross. You are confused.
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One course by Ross or re-modeled by Ross was the Ponce-de-Leon (modern name). The Ponce is now NLE as of about 2003 and I am 51% sure that the St Augustine Links later became known as the Ponce. St Augustine Links was usually listed in the fixtures in the 1920s.
" Proceeding along the east coast from Jacksonville, where the new arrival may first limber up at the Florida Country Club, the first inviting stop is St. Augustine. No less than three courses beckon to the wayfarer in this ancient city. "
" He may try his skill on the old course of the St. Augustine Golf Club, in which case he will be treading one of the oldest golfing layouts in Dixie. If this isn't satisfactory, he may take a whirl at the St. Augustine Country, a comparatively new course and thoroughly interesting. In the event this doesn't prove altogether satisfactory, still another opportunity lies at hand. He can pit his skill against the opposition of a layout planned and built by Donald Ross, known as the St. Augustine Links. " AG November 1920
Supposing that you choose to proceed further south along the eastern route. You encounter first St. Augustine, where the St. Augustine Links is a real course. This was one of the first real creations in the state, following that stage where in early days, most Florida courses were just a place to hit a golf ball, and it is still a fine interesting test of golf. It has been the scene of a great many competitions by crack amateurs, professionals and leading women players, all of whom have found it a test worthy of their skill. It will be the scene of several interesting tournament events this winter. " AG 1934
From early 2000 promo by the resort hotel then on the property...." The Ponce de Leon Golf Course first opened in 1916. Henry Flagler, Standard Oil tycoon, had commission renowned architect Donald Ross to design a premier course for he and his affluent friends when visiting St. Augustine. The course, as part of the prominent St. Augustine Country Club flourished for years. In 1957 the country club was made into a private owned resort due to the increase in the number of guests wanting to enjoy the facility. "
It was on east side of US 1.
Maybe more later. Hope to find something better than above.
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I don't know Jeff, and it doesnt matter to me to be honest.
But again, I don't give a damn. That is what is wrong with these distinctions and why I originally objected to the ever increasing limitations Mike wants to put on his original statement that got all this going. After a while it is splitting irrelevant hairs, but I guess that is what he has to do to continue to try and make his claim make sense.
I think we'd be better off if he would just forget about defending Cobbs-- I think Tom and I have long considered that battle long over-- and see where Tom's list takes us without bogging it down by claiming one hotel course is okay while another isn't.
Now David...I know you're often dour and humorless here, but you have to admit, this one is precious! ;D
You don't like lists, do you?
Then what the hell have you and MacWood just spent the last 20 pages trying to compile?!?!? ;D
I start a thread on Hugh Wilson's involvement with public golf all his life based on some new findings that Joe and I had in that regard, specifically about Juniata GC. Tom MacWood takes the first swipe asking if his involvement in these courses besmirched his reputation.
You then take a rebuttal statement of mine saying UNTIL the Depression, with the SUBSEQUENT creation of Bethpage, many observers felt that Cobb's Creek was the best public course in the country, and you and Tom MacWood decide to try and rip me a new one.
It didn't matter that I quoted news accounts from competing cities, quotes from former publiniks champions, articles stating that the course was "Famed" in freaking Waterloo, IA, or anything else...no evidence would suit you both.
Fine.
So, instead, and obviously very uncomfortable with your arguments, you and Tom then completely hijack the thread and spend the next several weeks COMPILING A FREAKING LIST! ;D
The list goes through various iterations, and corrections, simply because it wasn't based on any first-hand, or second-hand knowledge, but because it was being researched and written ON THE FLY, using 1950's travel guides, and other such nonsense.
Despite my clarifying the timelines about 500 times, you and Tom persist on adding courses built in the 1930s, simply because neither of you felt your list pre-Depression had any heft.
Then, Tom finds a bunch of courses built on millionaire housing developments, and onsite lodging, and hotels, and yachting slips at places like Beaver Tail and Pasadena and Gulf Hills and remarkably says those courses were public too, obviously trying to sweeten a losing hand.
Every day for weeks the list evolves.
Courses are added, courses are dropped.
Each day, the thread drops off the first page of GCA faster than a bloated calf dropped off a skyscraper due to zero interest among the participants here, only to be dutifully resurrected each morning by Tom MacWood with some new aerial of some course taken from 10,000 feet that we're supposed to see as relevant because it either has lots of bunkers or some name-dropped architect, along with yet another iteration of the list that's supposed to be actually making some point, but instead is like some Dale Griffith-ish monologue... a GCA version of the Filibuster.
And then, at the end of weeks of this, with absolutely no arrows left in your quiver and a list that's really just a plethora of different kind of courses across a meaningless extended timeframe for comparison that's much ado about nothing, you state that this would never have happened if I had simply stopped defending Cobb's Creek, and that you hate lists! :-*
Priceless. You couldn't make this stuff up. ;D
Huh?
It is not my list.
Now how about you answer my question?
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"I think you may have mistakenly attributed the quote above to me, but whoever the source that person obviously knows something of Ross. You are confused."
Tom MacWood:
You are right and I am wrong about that and I was confused----I thought it was you who said that you had found some documented newspaper material that a Jacksonville course was Ross. But, in fact, it was not you who said that; it was Cirba.
Nevertheless, I would ask him the very same questions I asked you when I mistakenly thought it was you who made that remark, and why not? I have no reason to not put anyone on here through the very same queries or catechisms. ;)
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"Huh?
It is not my list.
Now how about you answer my question?"
What's your question? I don't care if you addressed your last post to Cirba, I am interested to know what your question is, and so I'm asking you. Hopefully, you don't have another of your hysterical problems with that TOO, and consequently start insulting me for wine or dregs or tea leaf affects to do with wine or dregs or whatever! ;)
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TEPaul,
The question was for Mike. I have no interest in how you might answer it.
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"TEPaul,
The question was for Mike. I have no interest in how you might answer it."
I didn't really plan on answering it. I was just interested to know what the question was. Your response above is just so consistently and deliciously petty; not an altogether bad thing to keep exposing on here, for sure.
Moriarty, at this point, I really don't even know who your worst nightmare is on here---me---or YOU! :)
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David,
It isn't me, but Golf Digest who called Industry Hills a public (not a resort) course around 1980, and I was merely explaining what I thought might be their reasoning.
Out of 50 courses listed, I questioned Edgewood Tahoe, but could see their point around IH, simply because it was funded with municipal monies while the hotel was from different private funding and the fact that it was three years until the hotel opened (after the course was open for play and during the time GD put together their list, that all seems very reasonable).
In the case of Edgewood, they had just hosted the Publinks in 1980, so I think that started to blur the lines between resorts and true public courses.
To your specific question, if Pebble Beach had been built with municipal funds, and a private hotel was being subsequently built on the property, I could see someone justifiably calling it a municipal public golf course not a resort.
Tom MacWood,
Wow, Cleveland Heights is a stretch, a place where money was no object in building the clubhouse and where a private individual essentially created a resort community that didn't exist prior around the golf course. However, I don't see any hotel or temp lodging so perhaps it should be included.
I have some more thoughts on Florida, and other vacation destinations, based on the list I posted last night that shows almost all of them, public and private, available for play at a fee, but that will have to wait til later.
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Tom MacWood,
Wow, Cleveland Heights is a stretch, a place where money was no object in building the clubhouse and where a private individual essentially created a resort community that didn't exist prior around the golf course. However, I don't see any hotel or temp lodging so perhaps it should be included.
I have some more thoughts on Florida, and other vacation destinations, based on the list I posted last night that shows almost all of them, public and private, available for play at a fee, but that will have to wait til later.
I'm sure your thoughts on Florida will be fascinating. I can tell you why Cleveland Heights, Opa Locka, Sharp Park and a number of the others are excluded from your list. They were all superior to Cobbs Creek. Like I said earlier in the thread Cobbs Creek would come in some where in the middle of the pack of my list. If you can't beat'em exclude'em.
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I've added Twin Hills in Oklahoma City.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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Tom,
Sharp excludes itself, opening in 1931.
Millionaire communities were not public courses in any real sense Tom, and I would think a student of history would find that self-evident.
If every course in florida was open to the vacationing golfer, how many of them would you call public courses?
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Tom,
Btw, your continued use of courses after the depression shows your lack of confidence in its quality to support your position.
The resort communities populated by the second-home yachting set just shows desperation.
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Was Sharp Park constructed as part of a public works program?
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"Was Sharp Park constructed as part of a public works program?"
Tom MacWood:
I wouldn't think so since Sharp Park GC was created between 1931-32 and the federal public works program did not even begin until June of 1933 and I doubt California had a public works program before the federal governement did. I think Sharp Park was created by the town of Pacifica and I believe the site had been used for something like onion farming. I was given a book while there recently about the history of Sharp Park and Pacifica but at the moment I can't find it.
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Here are a couple of early views of Lawsonia - holes #10 and #14.
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Here is Daniel Wexler's rendering of Jacksonville Municipal, and a view of one of the greens.
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Tom,
Not sure exactly what is going on with this thread, but I'd suggest adding Carolina Golf Club (1929) - Ross (Charlotte, NC) to your list if you find that it qualifies. The course was opened for public play in 1929 as a daily fee course, not a "club" inspite of the name. It was not municipal, but rather privately (family) owned. Anyone could walk up, pay their money, and play, assuming the "right" color of the skin. Other than the Ross architecture, probably its greatest claim to historical fame is that it is where Charlie Sifford caddied and learned to play the game. Reference: http://www.answers.com/topic/charlie-sifford. In the late 1950s the owners decided to get out of the golf course business and sold the course to a group who turned it into a private golf club, which it remains today.
Now, that's the story I know.
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Tom M - Did Sharp Park involve reclaiming some land from the sea?
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Was Sharp Park constructed as part of a public works program?
Tom,
Yes. Sharp Park was constructed IN ENTIRETY as part of a public works program.
There is a very good and valid reason that I stated “until the Depression”, when I made my comparison, as I’ve explained repeatedly, and which has been repeatedly and inexplicably ignored by you and David.
After the Stock Market Crash of 1929, the impact was almost immediate, and in the ensuing years through WWII a lot of things happened to public golf courses, some very good and some very bad.
When all was said and done, and peace was restored in the mid-1940s, Bethpage Black emerged as the best and most demanding public course in the land.
Following please find the story of the creation of Sharp Park as documented as it happened. Although some may contend that it was the “best” public course in the country when it opened in 1932, it’s tougher to argue that it was the most demanding, because even though Cobb’s Creek was criticized here earlier as too short at 6400 yards, par 71 when it hosted the 1928 US Publinks, Sharp Park was just over 6,100 yards, also par 71 and low scores of 73 and 74 were fired already on opening day with just local play. Compared against a 1928 US Public Links medal score of 152 at Cobb’s in perfect weather, these were low scores indeed.
Perhaps this is why when the US Public Links tournament came to San Francisco in 1937, it was held at Harding Park, and not Sharp Park?
Nevertheless, the course from aerials and diagrams looks very intriguing indeed, and I hope you enjoy reading about the true story of the creation of Sharp Park.
11/21/1929
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/4841069624_db92c52bff_o.jpg)
11/27/1929
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/4840457811_64fb2d0db3_o.jpg)
03/09/1930
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/4841069654_76c5c3486c_o.jpg)
05/17/1930
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/4840457825_7c54399ccb_b.jpg)
09/29/1930
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/4841069682_1df108bd9d_o.jpg)
07/31/1931
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/4841069702_8d2dbd0a64_o.jpg)
04/16/1932
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/4841069716_7ae992d1a6_o.jpg)
04/18/1932
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/4840457877_2015a695c7_o.jpg)
03/28/1935
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/4841069786_f7aac648ca_o.jpg)
10/07/1936
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/4841069870_8a8b13fa08_b.jpg)
01/23/1941
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/4841069908_5e08833cb2_o.jpg)
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After reading the articles above, I wonder how the rumor started that Sharp Park lost so many original holes a few months after opening?
It almost had a decade long run in its original Mackenzie/Egan configuration.
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After reading the articles above, I wonder how the rumor started that Sharp Park lost so many original holes a few months after opening?
It almost had a decade long run in its original Mackenzie/Egan configuration.
You mean the rumor you started earlier on this thread?
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No Tom, the rumor that appears in Tom Doak's Mackenzie book,
What does Dan Wexler's book say?
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No Tom, the rumor that appears in Tom Doak's Mackenzie book,
What does Dan Wexler's book say?
I thought you said the course fell into the sea earlier on this thread. Its kind of hard for a course at sea level to fall anywhere. You had SP confused with Olympic.
By the way the first mention of the public works program is 7.31.1931, when funds were used to complete the golf course. The golf course was proposed, planned and designed in 1929-30; and it had nothing to do with a work program. Nice try though.
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Tom,
The only thing taking on water and falling off a cliff faster than Sharp Park is your argument for including courses after 1929! ;) ;D
You asked me,
Was Sharp Park constructed as part of a public works program?
You really need to read more carefully. The ENTIRE construction, start to finish of the Sharp Park Municipal Golf Course was a PUBLIC WORKS PROJECT funded to combat the effects of the Great Depression
.
October 29th, 1929 - The Stock Market Crashes
November 29th, 1929 - Perhaps in denial, or perhaps not yet feeling the effects of the oncoming economic storm, after discussions for the past year the good folks in the San Francisco govt. proposes to spend $100,000 to build the "Best Course in the World" at Sharp Park.
March 9th, 1930, - H. Chandler Egan, perhaps sensing this thing slipping away, boasts in a story covered nationally that the course will be a "Second St. Andrews".
May 17th, 1930, - The city of San Francisco proposes a budget with a tax increase to cover, among other things, proposed spending of now $125,000 to build the golf course at Sharp Park.
July 1931 - To combat the effects of the Great Depression, and to employ people the San Francisco government announces an aggressive list of PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAMS that now includes $200,000 to build the golf course at Sharp Park.
April 16th, 1932 - After being in construction for the past year, the new golf course at Sharp Park opens at a cost now over $300,000.
March, 1935 - An additional $250,000 will be expended in a PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAM at Sharp Park to "reconstruct.. it into a model golfing layout".
For comparison purposes, Cobb's Creek was built for $30,000, which included construction of the two large, two-story clubhouse locker facilities for men and women.
Now, about what happened to Sharp Park, and when.
Tom Doak's excellent and seminal book, "The Life and Work of Dr. Alister Mackenzie", reports;
"Sharp Park was a municipal project located just south of San Francisco in Pacifica at the edge of the ocean. Jack Fleming was assigned the construction of this course, which involved a considerable amount of earthmoving in order to create artificial dune features, similar to what C.B. Macdonald did at the Lido. Sharp Park opened in 1931 to substantial acclaim. A few months later, unfortunately, ocean storms (perhaps an early El Nino) swept over part of the course and wiped out several of the holes. Today, only the inland greens remain true to Mackenzie's design, and the seaside ambiance was sacrificed when a large dyke was erected to keep the ocean back."
What does Daniel Wexler's book say happened?
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Thanks for the articles on Sharp Park. They only mention Egan. What is MacKenzie's contribution? Documented?
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Garland,
At this time, Egan was a partner in Mackenzie's firm. I suspect he was the primary architect, although I may be wrong and it's generally best to credit both partners as a matter of course.
p.s. It's sort of ironic that Mackenzie, who railed against the evils of Socialism, would have one of his final courses built entirely through a government-funded public "make-work" program. :o :P
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...
p.s. It's sort of ironic that Mackenzie, who railed against the evils of Socialism, would have one of his final courses built entirely through a government-funded public works program. :o :P
That conflicts with what TEP wrote above about it not being public works. Resolution?
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Garland,
Tom Paul was referring to Federal Public Works Programs, like the WPA and CCC.
This was a Public Works Program initiated and funded by the City of San Francisco to combat the Depression.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/4841069702_8d2dbd0a64_o.jpg)
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Thanks Mike
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Mike,
This may come as a surprise to you, but municipal golf courses are generally funded with public funds. And anything built by the government for the use and enjoyment of the public is considered "public works" whether or not they are built during economic downturns. For example, Cobbs was a public works project.
The 1935 article that mentions improvements to the buildings, roads, and the planting of trees, and the encampment of 500 unemployed men to do the work; that sounds like the kind of safety net or "relief" project I think Tom was referring to.
As for the 1931 article, please point out to me the part where it says that was a program "initiated and funded to combat the Depression." Because I think you just made that part up. In fact the writer notes that "apparently confidence among public officials and developers of the city has not been impared . . . ." and this hardly sounds like language used to launch a safety net program for the unemployed of San Francisco.
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David,
Tom asked me whether Sharp Park was funded as a Public Works Program, and it's very clear it was.
In fact, not only was it funded as a result of the Great Depression, but with initial cost estimations and construction overruns in the 3-5 hundred%-fold, one could rightfully argue that the entire project was a boondoggle!
Even as late as 1937 the course was taking a loss for the year, economically, and the city had to cover those losses on the books with more tax monies.
Initial proposed monies of $100K in late 1929 were not acted on for obvious reasons after the world economy essentially collapsed.
Six months later, city officials tried to get it funded through a tax increase, except the cost was now estimated at 25% higher. My how the more things change....
Another year later, and another year deeper in the Great Depression, the city now in spring of 1931 approves several Public Works Programs, including a now additional 60% costs for the course at Sharp Park.
A year later the course opens with cost overruns of over $100,000, to some total above $300,000.
Still not enough, by 1935 another $250K is sunk into building this facility.
And you say this had nothing to do with substantial government jobs funding and the Great Depression??
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In fact, this type of bloated government spending for public courses after the start of the Great Depression, whether you agree with it or not, is PRECISELY WHY I delineated my statement about Cobb's Creek to say "UNTIL the Depression".
Things got very cloudy after that, and the sheer volume of government monies pumped into building and renovating public golf courses at that time DWARFED anything that had been done prior.
In NYC, not only was Bethpage created, but Robert Moses had John Van Kleek build new public courses and renovate EVERY OTHER NYC municipal course in all five boroughs. Sharp Park is almost a prototype for this enhanced type of spending, and the same thing happened in Atlanta and other major cities.
THAT is why I made the distinction I did, which you and Tom simply chose to ignore.
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Mike
I think you know that Tom was asking whether it was created as part of a relief project. You can't just pretend every public works project was a relief program.
As I said the 1935 article sounds like a Depression Era relief program. As for the rest, you are just making stuff up, and (as usual) twisting to suit your needs.
-- Nowhere does it say it was funded as a result of the Great Depression.
-- You term it "cost overruns" but that too is your twist. You've no idea the root of the increased cost projections. Was the later projection covering the same things exactly as the earlier? You don't know.
-- You say that the 1929 plan was not acted on for "obvious reasons" after the world economy essentially collapsed. There is nothing obvious to me about this, and there is nothing obvous about your conclusion that they didn't act on their plan. Late 1929 SF approved the plan to build a golf course, Mid-1930 the city agrees on how to fund the project, Spring 1932 the course opens. Sounds like the timing was about right to me.
It is generally pretty easy to tell what was part of a relief program because it was touted as such, for political reasons.
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David,
Sorry, spin however you like but it's over.
At least something good and useful finally came from this thread.
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Huh?
I thought we were talking about whether or not Sharp Park was "initiated and funded to combat the Depression," but obviously you are only interested in propping up a few articles, taking them out of context, and pretending you have scored some sort of imaginary victory. About what I am not sure? It figures.
It is possible that relief project monies were used at Sharp Park at some point. The 1935 article could definitely be read to indicate this. But the course was designed in 1929-1930 and built in 1930-31, and I don't see much to indicate that it was part of any relief program. I guess it is possible and if true it should be easy enough to figure it out, but so far all we know is that it was funded by the city. Not really news since it is a municipal course.
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David,
The course wasn't built in 1930.
Funding wasn't even approved until spring 1931. The course opened in April 1932 after construction of one year. Given the additional $250,000 worth of work done after that, it's clear it was a big push rush job at over triple the initial projected expenditures just to get it open.
That same time that funding for Sharp Park construction was approved, even the conservative President Hoover was reaching deep within the government Public Works bag to pull out any jobs he could, as reported in this May 1931. Amazing this isn't considered the start of the New Deal, and more amazing how the Republicans squealed when Roosevelt did more of the same, only with a formalized name.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/4841188031_ab73f7c647_b.jpg)
And if you think it wasn't affecting the Bay Area at that time, you really haven't studied the period very well.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/4841803594_635e1f7064_b.jpg)
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Mike,
Your statement was that the golf course was "initiated and funded as a result of the great depression." I see no indication of this.
The 1931 article indicates that the course would be finished, implying that construction had already started.
Was the course initiated as a result of the great depression? I see no evidence of it.
Was the course funded as a result of the great depression? Nothing you have produced thus far indicates that this is the case.
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David,
Construction began after funding was approved in the spring of 1931.
The course opened a year later.
The 1931 article is from July of that year.
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Really? Then who was working in Sharp Park in 1930, and why did you post that article?
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Good question, but the article doesn't mention a golf course.
I thought it interesting that immigration issues existed way back then,
Thought it might be relevant and collected it, but then found susequent articles that clarified the funding and construction timelines.
The larger point David,is that I specifically stated "until the Depression" because after the crash, governments started doing crazy stuff like spending ten to fifteen times what it cost to build the course that had just hosted the US Publinks tourney, even tho the land had been gifted and came with a 100k endowment.
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Hmmm. It seems article is fine to support your argument, but not to refute it. Fascinating.
The July 31, 1931 article doesn't mention when construction began. It only says that the project will be completed. The 1932 article said construction had been ongoing for the past year, but I didn't read this as putting an exact date on the beginning of construction like you do.
And why do you keep pretending the work in 1935 had anything to do with the initial golf course, especially when it doesn't seem it had much to do with the golf course at all? Are you now eliminating all courses where relief money was spent whether or not the course already existed?
As for your repeated comparisons to the supposed cost of Cobb's Creek, are we to understand you are putting yet another limitation on your original statement? Isn't it about time you put that statement behind you?
Had they only spent $30,000 dollars on Cobbs through the Publinks? Through 1930? Through 1936? Because based on the photos and descriptions I've seen, substantial changes were ongoing throughout, weren't they? And did that $30,000 include roads, buildings, and other infrastructure? Did the two sites have the same irrigation requirements? Did Cobbs face anywhere near the engineering issues faced by Sharp?
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David,
The opening day article states construction began a year prior.
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Yes. I know. But as I said, I am not so sure that we should take what seems to be off-hand reference quite so literally A year is not a very long time for a project like that, especially a government project.
Did you not notice my questions about Cobbs? Given your repeated comparisons to its supposed $30,000 price tag, surely you ought to flesh that out a bit.
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Mike
Here is a link to the Mackenzie timeline; he became involved at Sharp Park in 1930. Again please explain what point you are trying to make. This was not public work program. This project was initiated at the time of or right before the crash, and designed and built several years before the WPA and similar programs began.
http://www.alistermackenzie.co.uk/history.php
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Guys. Sharp Park had been a work in progress for a number of years before it finally got its start. My first pick up in the papers was in Jan of 1925! Needless to say things in SF take some time to get done.
Regarding the flooding of the course, there were some big storms that hit that area in its early years, but from what I have picked up on a big storm in 1941 that left water all the way up to the clubhouse. This is the best info that I have seen, but it appears that they were already concerned about the ocean as they were adding the Fleming holes right about the same time. There is alot of miss information out there and more digging is needed.
Tully
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Sean,
Thanks for the additional information. I always appreciate your balanced, objective analysis.
I hesitate to say this, because I have the utmost respect for the research that Daniel Wexler does, but because I was accused earlier today by Tom MacWood of starting rumors about the demise of Sharp Park, and the events and timing that led to its re-routing and abandonment of holes along the ocean, as well as making up stories about holes literally washing into the ocean, I have to state that Wexler's book, as well as Tom Doak's, talks about those things happening very early after the course opened, which we now know is incorrect. Daniel's book also makes the point that those holes fell into the sea, which seems to have some basis in fact.
Earlier today I asked both Tom MacWood and David Moriarty to tell us what Wexler's book had to say about Sharp Park, and both refused to answer. Now, we know why. ::)
I have more about this topic to say tomorrow, as well as answering some other questions that have come up, but I appreciate you bringing forward the information that building a golf course at Sharp was discussed, planned, and proposed for at least 5-6 years before any funding was actually approved, which seems to have finally happened in spring 1931, about 20 months after the Stock Market Crash of 1929, with the course initially opening for play a year later. The costs to build it went over triple the original estimates between the very end of 1929 and course opening in April 1932, and it was funded by public works monies.
Thanks again.
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Mike
Was Sharp Park conceived as part of a public jobs program? The answer is no, but this public works program diversion should not even be a consideration based on your original claim, which is why I have not removed any golf courses that opened before Bethpage-Black.
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Mike,
You put forth those blurbs above as some sort of conclusive, conversation ending proof of Cobbs' nationwide superiority? Really? This says more about your analytical skill and interest-driven reasoning than I ever could.
-- You might want to do some actual research on how much the term "famed" is thrown around. You might be surprised with the result.
-- You might also want to consider how a blurb like this generally gets in a paper like those you listed. You don't actually think they sent a reporter, do you?
You and TEPaul try to mock MacWood for posting the description of Cobbs from the Chicago paper above. What in the article was grossly inaccurate?
-- The course originally relied mostly on natural hazards, did it not?
-- My understanding is that Cobbs Creek was always on the short side, was it not? , listed at the opening at around 6070 yards. The way they measured in the Philly area at the time, it was likely significantly shorter than that.
-- The course did contain a number of drive and pitch par fours, did it not? (And by the way, early in the thread weren't you dissing courses you hadn't played for containing too many short par fours on the scorecard? Cobbs was not much longer than these courses, was it?)
-- About the only thing I can take issue with was the articles apparent reliance on the hole distances to judge the difficulty of the par 5s, but that is about it.
-- You say they increased the distance of the holes for the tournament. Did the listed yardage reflect that, or had it been lengthened multiple times? If it had, why would such a great course have to be lengthened twice in its first dozen years of existence?
Finding out that Sharp Park opened in 1932 at 6100 yards, par 71, with local guys firing 73s and 74s on Opening Day just made me recall this humorous recent diatribe from David.
I'm quite sure we'll hear how the proximity to the ocean breezes, as well as the sea-level elevation, as well as the cleverness of the holes, made for a great course at 6100 yards with 1932 equipment something that wasn't possible with 1916 equipment, but please save it.
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Mike
Was Sharp Park conceived as part of a public jobs program? The answer is no, but this public works program diversion should not even be a consideration based on your original claim, which is why I have not removed any golf courses that opened before Bethpage-Black.
Tom,
You completely miss the point.
You are so hung up on the myth and timing of Rooseveltian "New Deal" and WPA and CCC programs which were simply a formalization and naming and structure around the rapid escalation of Public Works Programs started at the Federal level by President Hoover at the start of 1931 (see the articles above), and by virtually every state and municipality at that time in response to the emergency of the collapse of the economy and the millions of people thrown out of work.
As Sean Tully pointed out, Sharp Park was "conceived" years and years before it was actually funded and built.
And after the Stock Market Crash of 1929, THAT approval and construction only happened as part of an $8 million, multi-year Public Works Program approved by the city of San Francisco in spring of 1931.
If you think THAT wasn't about JOBS, and POLITICAL PRESSURE due to the GREAT DEPRESSION, I have a bridge to sell you.
And Tom...why did you refuse to answer my question about Daniel Wexler's account of Sharp Park after accusing me of starting rumors about both the timing and the substance of what happened to the course?
I know you have his book. Why the stonewalling? :-X ::)
Aren't you the guy without an agenda, just looking to find out who did what, when?? ???
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Had they only spent $30,000 dollars on Cobbs through the Publinks? Through 1930? Through 1936? Because based on the photos and descriptions I've seen, substantial changes were ongoing throughout, weren't they? And did that $30,000 include roads, buildings, and other infrastructure? Did the two sites have the same irrigation requirements? Did Cobbs face anywhere near the engineering issues faced by Sharp?
David,
Construction on Cobb's Creek started April 1915, and construction for the course and clubhouse(s) came in at $30,000 when the course opened May 1916.
It opened at just over 6,100 yards, par 71.
No changes of any significance were made to the course for the next 11 years, but in the months prior to the 1928 US Publinks tournament, new back tees were created on 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, adding about 200 yards, and making the course overall about 6400 yards, par 71.
No other significant changes happened until the 1950s, when 15% of the course was lost due to the creation of a Nike Missile base for military defense purposes, causing a significant re-routing and loss of six original holes.
Construction on Sharp Park started in spring of 1931, and after initial estimates of $100,000, and approved funding of $200,000, the costs for construction of the course and clubhouse came in at OVER $300,000 when the course opened April 1932.
Within three years, ANOTHER $250,000 was spent to make it a first class golf course, in reports of the times.
It opened at just over 6,100 yards, par 71.
When the US Public Links came to San Francisco in 1937, the venue selected was Harding Park.
The course that was opened initially lasted almost a decade, until storm damage that swept at least some of the course and infrastructure into the sea required the abandonment of the sea holes, and creation of new ones further inland.
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Mike, I think everything in that post of mine you reposted is accurate, but of course you take it out of context. I was merely confirming the accuracy of a description of the course from a Chicago paper. There was no value judgement associated with the length. In fact if you go back in the thread I think you will find me holding it out as an example of how short some of these courses were at the time.
I don't get the significance of either the cost or the length of Sharp. You aren't still seriously contending that Cobbs was the hardest public course before the depression, are you?
Your math doesn't work on the added distance.
You never asked me to tell you what the Wexler book said, but I am a bit shocked that you expect Tom and I to do your research for your? Who do you think I am? Joe Bausch?
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Is having the US Public Links at Harding Park supposed to be some kind of slight to SP? Here are a couple of snippets from Golf Illustrated. Harding has always been considered a premier championship venue. It has been regular pro tour stop from 40s through the 60s, and most recently hosted some big events, including the Presidents Cup. A photo of the course was featured in George Thomas's book, on the few public courses featured in that book. Harding Park is beautiful golf course.
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Tom M - Did Sharp Park involve reclaiming some land from the sea?
Yes, according to Mackenzie it was a major reclamation job. Which is probably why the course was susceptible to storm surges.
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Tom and David,
Evidently you've given up on the "no massive public monies flowed into public golf because of and/or during the Depression until the WPA" argument, given the weight of evidence.
I selected the Depression as a delimiter for sound historical reasons that you continue to ignore. It was simply the logical cut-off point when massive amounts of monies were used for public works programs, either in response to the Depression, or simply coincidentally concurrent with it, but many of these were also fed by it. For instance, Robert Moses's NYC Parks Initiative actually began shortly before the Great Depression, but became an effort that synergistically and somewhat ironically was fueled by the Depression, and the mass availability of cheap labor. John Van Kleek's work for Moses on all of the NYC courses began right around that time, in 1929 or so.
Further, as we saw above, Roosevelt didn't initiate the big public works programs that were a response to the Depression. By early 1931, President Hoover was already cranking up the Public Works machine in an effort to stem the flood of joblessness. Roosevelt only formalized it and built new structures (and named them) around it. Many of these monies flowed to municipalities and were used to beautify towns, create parks, build bridges, and yes, create and update public golf courses.
So it was with an understanding of history that I made my claim, and yes, given the list you've been able to produce of pre-1930 courses I still feel very confident in my original statement.
In fact, my confidence is bolstered daily by you both continuing to fight so hard to add both courses built between 1930-36, as well as the ridiculous insistence that a millionaire-colony created around golf for the yachting set at places like Pasadena and Gulf Hills were "public courses". That tells me you can't counter what I actually said effectively, so you have to pretend that I meant something other than what I said.
That's ok...I'm done with the post-Depression course discussion. The fact that I've proven that Sharp Park was only actually built because of the spring 1931 approval of over eight million dolllars in public works monies is a case study that makes my point. As always, I'm happy to discuss and debate any courses relevant to my original contention...those that opened prior to the Depression.
As far as Cobb's Creek. It opened at 6,172 yards in 1916 to a par of 71. Just over 200 yards of new tees were added just prior to the 1928 US Public Links.
In that tournament, the Medal score was 152, and only 8 players in the field of 134 broke 160.
Although the course hosted the best local pros and amateurs at various exhibitions, tournaments, and daily play, including two US Women's Amateur champions and top national amateurs like Woody Platt and Max Marston, par 71 was never matched by anyone through the 1920s. There was a reason it was "famed".
And Tom...Harding Park was in my Top 10 of public courses built before 1930 and I feel confident it was. I do have to ask, though, as I've not played there. How much of Harding's reputation do you think is based on the architecture, and how much of it is based on what my friend Bill Vostinak terms the "California Effect", where the look of the wind-blow cypress trees, the fog, the proximity to water, etc., all create a bit of a dreamlike setting, that is even evident in your old b&w photos?
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Here is link to info on Harding Park.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harding_Park_Golf_Club
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Stiles and Van Kleek were still partners in 1931.
Here is a link to article from July 1935 detailing some of the changes Van Kleek was making.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1935/ag3810q.pdf
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Mike,
The most amazing thing in those clippings in your post #680 is that they were leading off the project with the biggest expenditure of building and extending a yacht harbor! Whether they were delusional, spending just to spend , or whatever, I can't imagine Obama or even any but the most cynical Republicans thinking to spend current stimulus money on that kind of project. Even that populist John Kerry had to move his yacht back to MA and pay taxes on it the other day, no?
Things are still the same in other ways, though. Yeah, the Republicans rail against spending but it didn't stop a few from voting for the stimulus package, and there have generally been budget over runs every year since 1969 (there were a few Clinton/Newt years where it balanced if we overlook borrowing from the Social Security fund) Lets face it, politicians of both parties like to spend our money like it is their money and pass the bill on to some future politician and generation after they are out of office. We may still be alive when the day of reckoning gets here.
BTW, I agree with your general point about the public spending accelerating before it was given an official name by FDR. As above, Hoover probably started it, but called it "ugly but necessary" whereas FDR called it a great deal.
Besides the politics, I think many on this site have trouble fleshing out time lines. We tend to think of a whole lot of gca happening as "The Golden Age" as if it happened all the same day. It is quite possible that the SF program was concieved in good times, and then repackaged as a spending necessity when the bad times hit 5-6 years later. So, arguing whether its a depression era project because it was proposed earlier is a non starter for me. It was quite probably both but its hard to decipher 80 years later from a few clippings.
Not sure about the budget over runs, although will speculate that it may have been politically easier to over spend on an existing project, as compared to proposing a new one. But, I don't really know.
Hey, its good to know you guys aren't fighting so much about Philly courses any more!
DM,
Given how much this thread has morphed to Tom MacWood's list, why, oh why to you need to take a swipe at Cobbs Creek in virtually every one of your posts? Do we really need to smush Mike C down every single time just to be sure he is put in his place? Really classy my friend. The others seem to be playing nice, and you should, too!
It appears the old pattern of each of you pretending to know exactly which ambiguous phrase has more meaning is re-emerging here.
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You never asked me to tell you what the Wexler book said, but I am a bit shocked that you expect Tom and I to do your research for your? Who do you think I am? Joe Bausch?
David,
Please leave Joe out of this. He thinks I'm certifiably insane for even dialoguing with you guys and he generally has much more sense and wisdom than I do.
You've come a far way though from starting this thread saying I had no knowledge to take part in a discussion of public courses to now comparing my ability to produce research, facts, figures, and comparative analysis with a great researcher like Joe. I take that as a great compliment, but sorry to disappoint you but all of this public course material on this thread is stuff I've dug up, not Joe. Still, thanks for the kind comparison.
Personally, I think you're just a little miffed that a Philadelphia guy is explaining what actually happened at California's Sharp Park, including the timeline of when the holes were lost (much later than was reported in either Doak or Wexler's book), as well as the history of how and when it was funded and constructed. Most other accounts have it opening in 1931, and mine is the first mention I've seen of H. Chandler Egan. But that's ok, too; if I'm able to contribute something previously unknown to a Mackenzie/Egan design that sadly seemed a bit cursed from the beginning (you can't believe the number of dead bodies, fires, and such that appeared there over the years), and that can hopefully be saved and perhaps even restored someday, I'm happy to do it and that's all the thanks I need.
Jeff,
Yes, amazing isn't it? Imagine the chutzpah about 18 months into the Depression to kick off a big public works program with a Yacht Club!
If you talk to Gib Papazian, it seems not much has changed in SF politics since that time, sadly.
Tom MacWood,
That's a great article. You're correct that Van Kleek's work for NYC didn't begin until February 1934, and I confused it with the date that Moses became Commissioner of the Park System as he was in control of the golf courses prior to then and his ambitious plans for revamping of the park system coincided with the start of the Depression, and parallled much of it.
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"DM,
Given how much this thread has morphed to Tom MacWood's list, why, oh why to you need to take a swipe at Cobbs Creek in virtually every one of your posts? Do we really need to smush Mike C down every single time just to be sure he is put in his place? Really classy my friend. The others seem to be playing nice, and you should, too!"
Mr. Jeffrey, Sir:
Apparently so; that's his constant MO on here and it's been going on for years particularly with various Philly people. You're a golf course architect, Mr. Jeffrey; you're supposed to be observant. Please tell me this isn't the first time you noticed this. ;)
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DM,
Given how much this thread has morphed to Tom MacWood's list, why, oh why to you need to take a swipe at Cobbs Creek in virtually every one of your posts? Do we really need to smush Mike C down every single time just to be sure he is put in his place? Really classy my friend. The others seem to be playing nice, and you should, too!
It appears the old pattern of each of you pretending to know exactly which ambiguous phrase has more meaning is re-emerging here.
Jeff, Do you read the posts before you write these things? Where have I taken swipes at Cobbs Creek? I like Cobbs Creek, although I am a bit surprised Mike bothers to bring it up at this point in this conversation.
And only one of us is pretending to know what each ambiguous phrase means.
Mike Cirba, as usual, you've misunderstood my post. I didn't compare you to Joe Bausch. Get real.
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David,
Why are you the only one on GCA whose posts I consistently misunderstand?
I'm more than happy to take the blame for that, except many others seem to have the same difficulty. ;)
Speaking of actual research, what do you have to bring to this discussion beyond an argumentative attitude and cheap insults from the sidelines? Darn...I shouldn't be the one to have to tell you what happened at Sharp Park from across the country, should I?
Maybe you should get over to Iindustry Hills and the Miller library if you want to have a constructive part in this discussion with me and Tom?
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No, it is mostly you who misunderstands my posts. But not just my posts, almost everything you read. You just see a word or two and make up the rest.
For example, here is what I wrote: "Who do you think I am? Joe Bausch?" And from that you think I was comparing you to Joe Bausch? Incredible.
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TePaul,
For some unknown reason, I seem to feel the need to chime in on these left coast/philly pissing matches (where oddly, the stream seems to fall in Columbus, OH from both directions) about once every six pages or so. I will see you on page 24!
David,
Fine. Technically you take a swipe at Mike for originally (and occaisionally thereafter) defending CC as the best in the land, when it is only one of the best in the land. I was wrong in that last post.
For the record, I did read all the posts. And for the record, you are full of it if you think it is only MC who parses posts and meanings of certain phrases. And really full of it if you think the rest of us are just too dumb to comprehend what you write. I can sure understand that ALL of us are somewhat misunderstood in this medium and there may be some offense taken by all to other comments. From reading all this and other threads, it just seems to me that your attitude of telling us all we don't understand, we are parsing words, etc. is the strongest of many strongly held viewpoints. And that tends to offend me.
Mike and Tom Mac have a few skirmishes, but some posts do talk facts and not attitudes. They have cleaned up their act. I am just asking you do the same. And maybe place a wager on just how many pages this one will go? So yeah, my opinion doesn't mean beans, and you are certainly not the only one to blame.
I just happened to call you out because of my frustration. And how do you respond? With an insulting tone to prove my point. And a follow up insult to Mike Cirba. TePaul is right - it is your MO.
I am sorry for any offense I have given you. I am occiaisionally just as guilty as the next guy, but don't really mean to be. I am certainly willing to engage you any time in productive gca discussion when the topic interests the both of us and look forward to that opportunity in the near future....just not before page 24! ;D
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Jeff, it seems your issues with me go well beyond anything in this thread. I'd just as soon stick to the thread if you don't mind.
As for my tone to Mike Cirba, it is no different than his tone to me.
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David,
I'd be happy to drop any tone and discuss things productively, even when we don't agree, but from the first page here I've been simply lobbing back the grenades you keep firing. I don't understand why you seem to have an issue with Philadelphia, or why everything Philly seems to be a red cape for you to charge at, but I'd much rather we reach some sort of mutual understanding and better, more productive dialogue, and I'm pretty sure everyone else here does, as well.
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So you thought you'd start with the new tone by accusing me have having "an issue with Philadelphia" and repeatedly attacking "everything Philly?" That's rich, Mike.
I've got no problem with Philadelphia. I do strongly disagree with what seems to be your approach to research and analysis, and the approach of some others there. It is just too fast, loose, and selective with the facts for my tastes, and seems to me to be nothing but overzealous advocacy masquerading as unbiased historical research.
Now I am sure that you and Jeff and whoever will consider this to be nasty of my to say, but it is the way I see it, and I think the facts back me up on this one.
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"Now I am sure that you and Jeff and whoever will consider this to be nasty of my to say, but it is the way I see it, and I think the facts back me up on this one."
I think we are well aware you think the facts back you up on this; I think everyone on here and elsewhere is well aware you think the facts back you up on this since you certainly have said so often enough on here. Fortunately, it seem you are the only one, with the possible exception of your cohort in Ohio, who thinks the facts back you up, and most certainly with what you think the facts are that have anything to do with the history of particularly Merion which appears to have been the springboard on here some years ago with your adverserialness to some of us in Philadelphia.
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TEPaul,
Get lost.
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Typical.
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I've added Cog Hill and removed Duck Creek.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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I've got no problem with Philadelphia. I do strongly disagree with what seems to be your approach to research and analysis, and the approach of some others there. It is just too fast, loose, and selective with the facts for my tastes, and seems to me to be nothing but overzealous advocacy masquerading as unbiased historical research.
Now I am sure that you and Jeff and whoever will consider this to be nasty of my to say, but it is the way I see it, and I think the facts back me up on this one.
David,
Now I find that to be extremely ironic and I have to ask why you have no such problem with the research and analysis and overzealous advocacy that has taken place in California in regard to it's historic courses over the past decade or more?
Please show me any comment by any of the authors of books or participants here from California that have been in the least bit critical or made even the slightest negative comment about any of the California works of George Thomas, Billy Bell (Sr.), Alister Mackenzie, H Chandler Egan, Max Behr, or Tillinghast's work at SFGC, except to exalt their original greatness while bemoaning their losses and changes over time.
Other than that, can you please tell me where the objective or critical analysis of any of their work is so I can go and read it?
Believe me, I understand why guys like Geoff, and Tommy, and Daniel Wexler, and David Stamm, and Sean Tully are big fans of that work, but if you tell me their writing doesn't also enter the realm of "fan-dom" I'm not sure YOU are being objective, David. I'm extremely grateful for all the history they've collectively uncovered and shared, and I think we all are, but if you think they are also detached critical observers I would disagree with you.
To wit...not to single out Daniel Wexler, but since we're talking about Sharp Park, and since we've already mentioned that he was in error in terms of what happened to the course and when, let me quote;
"Owing to the fact that it was built in 1931, then washed into oblivion by a coastal storm shortly thereafter, its original design was seen firsthand by very few. Nor was this initial version in any way adequately recorded, with few photographs of any kind known to remain in existence."
Despite it's mystery, and lack of documentary, contemporary evidence, Daniel concludes, "It was, in short, a municipal masterpiece."
Later he writes;
"It was indeed unfortunate for Sharp Park that so many of its best holes fell along the property's ocean side, for it was this flank which took the brunt of any incoming storms. Following the early 1930s deluge that washed several of those gems out to sea, a massive berm was constructed (largely upon land once occupied by holed three and seven) to prevent history from repeating itself. The subsequent rerouting of the county road and reconfiguring of the lakeside holes has further muddled things so that today only a handful of holes run consistent with Mackenzie originals, and no appreciable trace of his strategy remains in play."
"How Sharp Park Would Measure Up Today"
"Oceanfront holes, double fairways, MacKenzie bunkering, marvelous scenery..."
"Any way you look at it, even at only 6,154 yards, Sharp Park would have to stand well out in front as America's finest municipal golf course."
"Restoration anyone?"
Now, as we've seen Sharp Park was certainly a fine course, but it did in fact exist for almost a decade in its original state, and was possibly not even the best municipal golf course in San Francisco.
Five years after opening, when the USGA brought the Public Links tournament to the city, the tournament was played at Harding Park. Even on opening day at SP the scores were quite low, so it's likely to have suffered a bit in terms of challenge for the better player. This wasn't uncommon, as most architects of the time built public courses to be quite a bit less challenging and demanding than their private course brethren.
In any case, during it's 10 years of existence, I'm not sure it was regarded as anything but a good local CA golf course, on a stirking ocean-front site, and I've yet to come across any articles that spoke of it's wonders, or where any contemporaries compared it to the best courses of its day, public or private.
If anything, I think our modern understanding of Sharp Park is based on as much myth as reality, given the Mackenzie name, the star-crossed history, and the ocean-front setting.
But you won't find any of the California researchers to tell you that, and that's ok. We all have our preferences, and we are all excited in some ways just to uncover these archeological tidbits from history, so sometimes a bit of hyperbole goes with the territory and most of us understand and respect and even celebrate that.
That being said, I'd LOVE to see Sharp Park saved and restored due to its historic architectural significance, and any help I can provide to that effort I'd gladly do. I also hope that some of the findings on this thread help to more fully flesh out that history, and I think the now documented significant involvement of H. Chandler Egan, himself vastly underrated as an architect of superb public courses, should hopefully add to that rich heritage.
Tom MacWood,
You've done numerous adds, deletes, and such since trying to compile this list over the past few weeks.
For instance, for weeks you listed Duck Creek as one of the best public courses through the Depression and today you summarily remove it without explanation.
Can you tell us some of the factors that would lead you to believe one day that it was one of the best public courses in the country and then the next day it falls from grace?
Duck Creek fans at the very least want to know, I'm certain! ;) ;D
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Mike
I've continually added and removed courses throughout the process. Duck Creek was a little too short compared to many of the others. I still believe it was a very good course, one of Langford's interesting bunkerless designs, but probably not up to the standard of the others. I'm considering the removal of Community in Dayton and Cobbs Creek for similar reasons.
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Tom,
You stated, "I've continually added and removed courses throughout the process. Duck Creek was a little too short compared to many of the others. I still believe it was a very good course, one of Langford's interesting bunkerless designs, but probably not up to the standard of the others. I'm considering the removal of Community in Dayton and Cobbs Creek for similar reasons."
Two questions.
At this point, exactly what is your list supposed to be defining? Secondly, with possibly removing Cobbs Creek from it, is it your contention that EVERY one of the sourses on the list were considered better courses nationally during those years than Cobb's Creek?
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Phil-the-author
I'm trying to identify the best public golf courses in America up until Bethpage-Black. No, at present not all the golf courses on the list were superior to Cobbs Creek.
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As I discover new information the list will evolve, courses added and subtracted.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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Tom,
How would you define what a public course was in winter resort vacation spots like Florida, North Carolina, etc, at that time?
The list I showed earlier seemed to indicate that virtually every course in the states of GA, NC, SC, and FL were playable by non-members in 1924 for a fee. Do you interpret that list the same way?
Also, since you continue to ignore the clear, documented evidence that Depression-fueled Public Works projects began shortly after the Crash of 1929, and funded construction of places like Sharp Park, you should probably adjust your date of opening for Sharp Park and add H. Chandler Egan's name to the credits.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/4836602534_18cd263ff4_o.jpg)
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However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
Mike
I don't have a separate set of criteria for the South. All courses from all parts are subject to the same criteria. I don't know what to make of your list. Obviously mine is much more stringent...I think there are maybe one or two courses on your entire list that made mine.
As far ignoring the Depression I'm simply going by your original statement - I assume you still stand by it.
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Tom,
I know you're not illiterate, or mentally deficient, or suffering early senility, so why do you continue to act as if that short summary of what I originally wrote back in February of this year on another thread wasn't already explained to you by myself and others repeatedly?
What I wrote on the George Crump thread about Cobb's Creek, and the statement I still stand by today, especially after seeing your desperation in choosing post-Depression courses and millionaire second-home resort community courses is as follows. I've bolded the important words in case your reading abilities are akin to your analytical skills. ;)
For those wanting to read the original, just follow this link. And Tom...I know you read it, because you replied to it just a few posts later, and others may now note that never have so much time and effort been spent trying to prove that a course wasn't as good as it was.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42829.msg930035/#msg930035
My contention that prior to the Depression and the subsequent creation of Bethpage, Cobb's Creek was known as the best public course in the country was greeted with skepticism in some quarters.
Apparently at least one US Pubilnks champion, and one from New York City at that, agreed with me as seen in this 1925 snippet.... ;D
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4338262427_a993624366_o.jpg)
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Mike,
I tell you that in my opinion you engage in overzealous advocacy masquerading as unbiased historical research, and your response in post 732 is, "Oh yeah? Well guys on the West Coast do it, too!"
You make my case for me. You don't even understand that your research and analysis must stand or fall on its own merits, not by some misguided comparison to what you think "Geoff, and Tommy, and Daniel Wexler, and David Stamm, and Sean Tully" are up to.
In fact, you've got some nerve drawing the comparison, even going so far as to call out Daniel Wexler as some sort of a biased hack, and based upon nothing but a fewambiguous newspaper articles, all because you claim he got the date of a storm wrong?
Let me ask you, Mike, how do you know that the storm you cite was the only storm that impacted the property? Or is this just another example of you drawing broad conclusions on incomplete evidence?
As far as the those who conduct research out here, you have no idea. There are plenty of courses out here with great histories and lineages that never even get a mention on cga.com. It is not as if anyone out here feels the need to announce it with trumpets blaring every time anyone establishes even the most tenuous connection between a decent course and the likes of Billy Bell, Max Behr, Tillinghast, Egan, Watson, or Mahan, as if it was some giant revelatory discovery. That is your bailiwick, not any of those you named.
As I said, Mike, I strongly disagree with your approach to research and analysis, and posts like 732 only bolster my opinion.
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Let me ask you, Mike, how do you know that the storm you cite was the only storm that impacted the property? Or is this just another example of you drawing broad conclusions on incomplete evidence?
David,
I hope this helps.
And by the way, I would never call Daniel such a name...that's preposterous. I simply said he went from saying that very little evidence or photos existed of the course because it only existed in its original form for a very short time, yet then went on to proclaim it head and shoulders the greatest public course in the country, based on that very scant evidence. As I said, I think that was partly wishful myth, based on MacKenzie, the star-crossed history, and the seaside setting. Certainly during its 10 years of existence no one I know of compared it to the best courses in the country, or even the best of the San Francisco public courses.
Besides, we all make mistakes, as you so willingly pointed out in the past with writers like Desmond Tolhurst and Tom MacWood did with Jim Finegan. There's no shame in correcting the historical record or bringing new evidence to light.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/4847696556_ba0d3559a0_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/4847075795_c8dacfd788_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/4847076159_af67bbdf98_b.jpg)
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Mike, thanks for pulling up that article, but I had seen it on the sfpublicgolf.com website. My question to you was about how earlier storms had impacted the course. For example, Sean Tully mentions that the course had already taken a beating leading up to the storms (and wall) in 1941.
One interesting aspect of the article that you don't reference is that the clubhouse was built with WPA money. This might explain the money for the roads and buildings to be spent in 1935, money that you simply assumed was for changes to the course itself.
Funny that I don't recall seeing anything in the save the course material referencing that the entire course was funded as part of government relief programs. Doesn't that seem like a point that the politically astute group in SF might have seized upon if it was supportable? Maybe they missed it.
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David,
I'm pretty sure that the earlier storms got the course very, very wet.
The MacKenzie/Egan routing was in place for almost a decade as the March 1941 aerial shows. Apparently, you'd seen that article before but never read it, I guess, or you wouldn't have asked me the question you did.
Do you think they spent another $250,000 in 1935 to simply build that modest clubhouse after spending over $300,000 in 1931/32 to build the entire facility?
I don't; in fact, the 1935 article indicates that portions of the clubhouse will be reconstructed, but also mentions that "the course will be reconstructed into a model golfing layout."
But that's ok...at least the real story is out there now, so all's well that ends well! ;D
Between unveiling the actual history of Sharp Park and Tom MacWood still futilely trying to dispute my statement about Cobb's Creek reputation prior to the Depression with his list of a bunch of courses built after the Depression, all in all it's been a terrific week.
Nice to see this thread is finally getting somewhere positive and I think I owe you guys some thank you's for keeping this thread afloat all these weeks.
Thank you, David...Thank you, Tom... ;D
Hopefully, we can continue on this positive streak. ;) :D
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As usual Mike, you selectively read and then run with whatever conclusions you started with. Did you quit reading before the part where they broke down what they were actually doing: building roads, installing a modern irrigation system, as well as rebuilding parts of the clubhouse?
How can you simultaneously claim that the Mackenzie routing survived until 1941 then claim that they reconstructed the entire layout in 1935? Only in your world.
I had read the article and the comments earlier by Sean Tully where he indicated that there had been a series of storms and that the changes may have been in the works for a while.
If this wasn't an ongoing issue, why do you suppose they had pumps and a pumping station?
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David,
It's not compliicated; don't try to make it so.
The Wexler book and the Doak book both were simply incorrect in stating that the holes along the ocean basically were washed into the sea a few months after opening. I asked earlier what folks thought the source of that myth was and Tom MacWood accused me of starting it on this thread! ::) I guess neither of you actually read Daniel Wexler or Tom Doak's book, either.
No one said they didn't have some storm issues prior. I sure didn't. I have no idea if they did or didn't.
I simply know that the MacKenzie/Egan course was intact for almost a decade, into 1941. Surely that's plenty of time for the course to have developed a reputation and legacy, isn't it?
Why do you think the US Publinks went to Harding Park instead of Sharp Park in 1937 if Sharp was the best public course in the world, head and shoulders?
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Mike
Who on this thread said Sharp Park was the best public course in the world?
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Tom,
You're the one who singled it out first here on your list of 71 golf courses pre and post depression, which includes courses built for second, third, and fourth-time home-owners in exclusive millionaire communities, so you must have thought it was pretty special.
Of course, at that time you didn't know when it opened, how long it lasted, or anything beyond the 2-dimensional map you found of what it looked like from 10,000 feet in the air, but you slapped it up and pronounced its excellence and then with great confidence asked if it was built with public works monies, which we now find out it was, in spades.
The Wexler book said, speculating on the hypothetical question "How Sharp Park Would Measure Up Today"....
"Any way you look at it, even at only 6154 yards, Sharp Park would have to stand well out in front as America's finest municpal golf course." (Bethpage and others mysteriously notwithstanding)
Perhaps I just extrapolated that bit of hyperbole to being the greatest public course in the world, but you've been at this for weeks and singled it out, and Daniel Wexler speculated that if Sharp Park still existed in its original state today, in 2010, it would still be welll out in front as America's finest municipal golf course, so given the generally well-respected standing of the US courses world-wide, I may have overstated the case somewhat, but perhaps I was only caught up in the obviously overheated grandiose rhetoric of the moment.
p.s. Thank you for keeping this thread alive, and resurrecting it each day for the past few weeks from the back pages, Lazarus-like, as I feel we've finally made some great progress in the past few days. For a long time I was skeptical that we'd ever reach a point of actually adding any value with this thread, but I was wrong, and am very glad now that you've saved it from oblivion time and time and time and time and time and time again. Thanks again.
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Mike
I don't recall saying it was the best public course in the world. I don't recall anyone saying it was the best public course in the world. Being one of seventy-one courses does not translate into being the best public course in the world. Either desperation is setting in or you're very tired or perhaps you've flipped your whig or maybe all three. Whatever the case I think you need a break.
However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
I don't see anything in this quote about the crash of '29, the Depression, the WPA, municipal courses, the destitute, soup kitchens, green fees, the South, real estate developments, yachts or millionaires. My list is attempting to identify the best public golf courses in the country up until Bethpage-Black....the rest of it has no affect on my list, nor should it. You are getting closer to my prediction.
First it was 1936, then it was prior to the WPA, now it is 1930, before we are done it will prior to US involvement in WWI, East of the Mississippi, North of the Mason-Dixon and on an inland site.
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I've added in Green Lakes in Syracuse.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones (Rochester, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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Here is the 16th hole at Green Lakes. IMO RTJ's most interesting designs were his earliest designs.
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Tom,
Green Lakes is another very nice course I've played. Why don't you just include all courses built through 1950?
If you are unable to correctly interpret what "until the Depression" means, then that's your problem, not mine.
Most historians make the start of the Depression with the October 1929 Market Crash, and I see no reason to revise history as you summarily and consistently attempt to do.
Your list may have some interest, although it's still a jumble of different types of courses, but it's a very weak, flaccid, and ineffectual tool if you're attempting to disprove my statement.
It also betrays your lack of confidence in being able to name quality courses through 1929 that were demonstrably better than Cobb's Creek.
Keep at it though...you may find something someday.
Thanks.
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"Your list may have some interest, although it's still a jumble of different types of courses, but it's a very weak, flaccid, and ineffectual tool if you're attempting to disprove my statement. "
MikeC:
I guess that's what he's doing even if he constantly fails to admit it. If that's NOT what he's doing, I must say I've never really understood the point of his on-going list or what he thinks he's accomplishing with it. ;)
At one point, he said himself that he is learning from it even if he's never mentioned exactly what it is he's learning. ??? ::)
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Tom,
I'm just wondering why he's prejudiced againt East Lake, Charlotte, Timaquanna, and of course, all the east coast vacation playgrounds like Mountauk Downs and Atlantic City, all which could be played for a fee.
By the definition he's using for courses like Gulf Hills and Pasadena, there is no reasonable reason to exclude any of these above or many others.
Of course, I guess that's what happens when you don't base a list on personal knowledge, but based instead on what you find along the way in 1950's Travel Guides while doing your summer research project and trying to provide daily reports as if you actually are knowledgable on your subject.
Of course, from my perspective, finding that Sharp Park was actually open for a decade with the Mackenzie/Egan course intact, as well as finding it was funded completely with a Depression-era public works $8 million package is simply the coup de grace, making this whole strange trip worthwhile.
;D
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Mike
Green Lakes opened May 1936; prior to Bethpage-Black.
Evidently you are having difficulty understanding my criteria. One more time, I don't include private clubs or resort courses. I do include daily-fee courses in winter resort areas or summertime colonies or rural communities or large metropolitan areas be they in the North, South, East or West, just as they are included on modern lists of public courses. They are considered public golf courses, and you knew that when you made your silly claim.
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Tom,
If your list included courses from the UK, SPECIFICALLY, would the Old Course be included?
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Tom MacWood,
How many years was 1936 from the beginning of the Depression?
What would make Pasadena a public course and Montauk Downs a resort course?
All of the courses in Florida, GA, NC, and SC, including ones like East Lake, could be played for a daily-fee. Why are you excluding them?
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TMac,
Sorry to but in before page 24, but have you posted what your criteria are? I know you have mentioned that you consider several things, but I haven't seen what they are.
Also, given that your list sits at an odd number of 71 courses, why is it necessary to remove some courses and replace them? Frankly, looking at the courses on that list, there is a wide variety of quality (based on me having seen them as far back as 1967) For example, Stevens Park is still not over 6000 yards and you have removed others for being too short by then standards, but leave that one on. Why not just add courses that you find to have been decent?
I understand that the more you add information about your ranking system, the more you subject yourself to the Philly boys (and others) critiques. But, once YOU try to make is some kind of definitive historical list, rather than a summer research project, that is kind of the risk and responsbility you take on , isn't it?
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Tom MacWood,
How many years was 1936 from the beginning of the Depression? The same number of years as from the beginning of the Depression until the founding of Bethpage-Black.
What would make Pasadena a public course and Montauk Downs a resort course? For the third or forth time, Montauk Downs was directly connected to the Montauk Manor making it a resort, therefore ineligible. Pasadena was a daily-fee course without any direct affiliation with a hotel or resort.
All of the courses in Florida, GA, NC, and SC, including ones like East Lake, could be played for a daily-fee. Why are you excluding them? I exclude all private courses even if they allow reciprocal play. Most private golf clubs outside the South allowed reciprocal play in those days, they are excluded as well.
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TMac,
Sorry to but in before page 24, but have you posted what your criteria are? I know you have mentioned that you consider several things, but I haven't seen what they are.
Also, given that your list sits at an odd number of 71 courses, why is it necessary to remove some courses and replace them? Frankly, looking at the courses on that list, there is a wide variety of quality (based on me having seen them as far back as 1967) For example, Stevens Park is still not over 6000 yards and you have removed others for being too short by then standards, but leave that one on. Why not just add courses that you find to have been decent?
I understand that the more you add information about your ranking system, the more you subject yourself to the Philly boys (and others) critiques. But, once YOU try to make is some kind of definitive historical list, rather than a summer research project, that is kind of the risk and responsbility you take on , isn't it?
Stevens Park was 6385 par-71. Its a pretty simple criteria to be considered: all public or daily-fee courses excluding resort courses.
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TMac,
Sorry to but in before page 24, but have you posted what your criteria are? I know you have mentioned that you consider several things, but I haven't seen what they are.
Also, given that your list sits at an odd number of 71 courses, why is it necessary to remove some courses and replace them? Frankly, looking at the courses on that list, there is a wide variety of quality (based on me having seen them as far back as 1967) For example, Stevens Park is still not over 6000 yards and you have removed others for being too short by then standards, but leave that one on. Why not just add courses that you find to have been decent?
I understand that the more you add information about your ranking system, the more you subject yourself to the Philly boys (and others) critiques. But, once YOU try to make is some kind of definitive historical list, rather than a summer research project, that is kind of the risk and responsbility you take on , isn't it?
Stevens Park was 6385 par-71. Its a pretty simple criteria to be considered: all public or daily-fee courses excluding resort courses.
I wasn't asking about your criteria to be considered for the list....I was asking about your criteria for being evaluated as worthy of being called a "top public course."
Still mystified as to how Stevens went from over 6300 yards to under 6000, knowing the course. I sincerely doubt it was ever that length unless they were lying on the scorecard.
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Tom MacWood,
Was Hershey (PA) ever public? (I honestly don't know). Today, the only way to play is to stay at the resort.
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PS - I think you and David could provide some insight into the "Destroy Sharp Park Golf" movement I've read about. Seems that some SF residents want to can the course and turn it into a nature preserve. It's not germane to this thread, but it could be good insight into what we may see at other locations in the future. (Example opinion piece: http://sfnaturalareas.org/entries/72 and a pro-save Sharp Park piece http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/sharp-park ).
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Dan,
I think there are posters from the Bay area who are much more familiar with the battle than I am. Here is a link:
http://www.sfpublicgolf.com/
The interesting aspect of the opposition to the course is they are using familiar arguments (endangered species, not for the benefit of taxpayers, not economically feasible) but they are doing so about an already existing use as opposed to new development. The 'it never would have been built today' argument could have dire consequences if it could ever gain traction.
Mike Cirba,
In your post above you again imply that Sharp Park was payed for entirely from government relief programs passed to help alleviate the Great Depression. Don't you think you should actually have some firm evidence of this before you state it as if it were true? Evidence other than your speculation and leaps of logic? Because all you have thus far is an article indicating that the course was built with public monies. We already knew that.
If it was paid for by Depression Relief Spending then it shouldn't take too much effort to back it up.
A few more questions for you:
1. Why do you still care so much about your initial claim about Cobb's Creek being the best public in the country before Bethpage? Everyone but you knew it was pure hyperbole from the beginning, so why are you still fighting this battle? Wouldn't it be more productive to see where Tom's list takes us?
2. Do you concede that Cobbs was not the best course built before Bethpage Black? If not, then why are you trying to limit the list?
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Jeff,
The criteria seems to be that someone might recognize the name of the architect and therefore think the nomination has validity, not that he knows a damn thing about 95% of the courses he's listed. Of course, he also seems very impressed by courses that have a lot of bunkers and look cool from 10,000 feet, but hey, whatever floats his boat.
However, as mentioned before, any of his courses listed after 1929 have nothing to do with anything I've ever claimed, and he seems either unable to read, or else he is just purposefully misrepresenting what I said....you be the judge.
In any case, here's more on the supposed public, non-resort course at Pasadena.
In 1929, after the Stock Market Crash when the hotels refused to fund it any longer, Pasadena shuttered its doors.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4123/4850431569_5e0ba3e959_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4850432049_621b9bdc8c_b.jpg)
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Mike Cirba,
In your post above you again imply that Sharp Park was payed for entirely from government relief programs passed to help alleviate the Great Depression. Don't you think you should actually have some firm evidence of this before you state it as if it were true? Evidence other than your speculation and leaps of logic? Because all you have thus far is an article indicating that the course was built with public monies. We already knew that.
If it was paid for by Depression Relief Spending then it shouldn't take too much effort to back it up.
A few more questions for you:
1. Why do you still care so much about your initial claim about Cobb's Creek being the best public in the country before Bethpage? Everyone but you knew it was pure hyperbole from the beginning, so why are you still fighting this battle? Wouldn't it be more productive to see where Tom's list takes us?
2. Do you concede that Cobbs was not the best course built before Bethpage Black? If not, then why are you trying to limit the list?
David,
Those are all good questions and I appreciate the opportunity to address each.
First, although I've tried to explain my original statement prior, perhaps confusion remains so let me reiterate it again. Perhaps I didn't state it very clearly.
I stated that "up until the Depression", meaning before October 1929, Cobb's Creek was considered by many observers as the best and most demanding public course in the country.
Whether or not you or Tom or anyone agrees with me here, that is the timeframe in question, and that is the timeframe I meant when I originally wrote it.
I also said, "with the subsequent creation of Bethpage", meaning, by the end of the Depression it was pretty clear that Bethpage Black was now the best and most demanding public course in the country.
I purposefully wrote "until the Depression", because after the Stock Market Crash of 1929, almost immediately a lot of things happened that had a long-lasting impact on public golf, good and bad. As seen in the documentation I provided around Sharp Park, public works programs to provide jobs of all sorts began, from President Hoover's 1930-31 initiatives, to the type of Eight Million dollars in projects approved by the City of San Francisco, that included the monies to fund the creation of Sharp Park.
This was unprecedented and caused a sea change in public golf. For comparison purposes I illustrated the spending to create Cobb's Creek ($30K) versus the spending to create Sharp Park (over $300K), and you had simply massive changes and building of new courses and mass revisions of old ones over the next decade. Conversely, those strains in the economy caused other public courses to suffer, dry-up, and disappear, or else conditions were so neglected as to be overgrown fields, or dustbowls of despair.
So, I would never had made a statement that Cobb's Creek was better than any public course until Bethpage in 1936 because it simply wasn't true, and isn't defensible. Too much monies and manpower flowed into public golf between 1930 to 1936 to make much sense of where any particular course stood in terms of quality at any given point, and I believe Sharp Park is a classic example of that. Very knowledgeable folks in modern times thought the course lasted only a scant few months, yet it was around in original form for almost a decade. The amount of work done to the NYC courses was just breathtaking, and in Philadelphia depression-era monies completed the second course at Cobb's Creek (Karakung), as well as the creation of Walnut Lane and League Island (FDR Park). This type of activity happened in virtually every burb across the country, and it changed the public golf landscape dramatically.
My reference to Bethpage was simply to say that although it wasn't possible in a period of such fluid dynamism to name a "best public course" between 1930 through through most of the Depression-era activity, by the end of it Bethpage Black emerged as the clear leader, both from a quality standpoint, as well as being viewed as an exceptionally demanding and difficult course, which led to its lore and subsequent reputation.
Now, as far as Tom's list....
I have two issues, primarily. The first, his continued insistence to include courses through 1936 and then pretend it has something to do with my claim is either an accidental or a purposeful misinterpretation of what I originally wrote. As I said, I would never contend that Cobb's Creek was viewed as the best public course between 1930-36 because way too much public monies flowed into the game during those years and way too much change in the landscape took place as a result.
The other is simply that he's making it up as he goes along and has very little personal understanding of any of the courses he's mentioned, which leads to a list that includes clear resort courses like Pasadena (see above), or courses where resort accommodations in the forms of bungalows to estates were built along each fairway like Gulf Hills, or millionaire second-home communities like Cleveland Heights and/or Beaver Tail where one simply drove their yacht up to play, or courses so seeming lacking in quality and distinction that leave people like Jeff Brauer scratching their heads to understand exactly what Tom's criteria is for inclusion on the list.
Moreover, his list seems simply intended to annoy. He first claimed that Cobb's Creek was "somewhere in the middle" of the list in terms of quality, yet yesterday when I asked him why the summary removal of Duck Creek (which had been on his list for weeks), he said he decided it wasn't to the quality of the others, too short, and was now considering the removal of Cobb's Creek and Community Park for the same reasons.
So, I'm happy to discuss any REAL public courses opened before the Depression with anyone, and I believe that Cobb's Creek stacks up in terms of quality and challenge to any of them (but did also mention at least twice that I felt the courses built in California during that time frame were probably the strongest competitors, along with Eastmoreland and Jacksonville Muni). I'd certainly like to dig in deeper on all of them.
And if others see value in blending courses pre and post Depression, I'm fine with that discussion, as well, but that list has nothing to do with anything I ever claimed for the reasons I provided again.
Thanks for asking.
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Mike,
I didn't think my questions were that complicated. I certainly didn't ask you to give the same song and dance about why you changed the dates of your claim. Tom quoted it right above. You've subsequently added the word "subsequently" but the original claim was pretty straightforward. Even if it wasn't, you clarified in post 91 (since deleted) when you listed the "years in question" through 1936.
Whatever you now think you meant, Tom is going by what you said, all your protests notwithstanding. You wanted different rules so you tried to make your own list. Why not let him make his?
Because Tom can make a list to any date he wants. Your endless sarcasm and insults about the qualification of his lists isn't exactly productive (see your post to Dan, above.) Why not just either help or step aside, and then when he is done you and everyone else can place Cobbs in the proper context and decide for themselves what dates make the most sense.
As I said, I think you were about the only one who took you seriously from the beginning, so this kicking and dragging your feet seems rather counterproductive and a bit self-centered. It is not about you at this point, and hasn't been for a long time.
As for your belief that Tom is only out to annoy, I disagree. Frankly if I had to place Cobbs with comparable public courses with which I am familiar it would be courses that aren't even on Tom's list, because they haven't made his cut. And I say this having played the course and liking it. So in my mind the thought of dropping Cobbs altogether from discussion doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
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Mike,
I didn't think my questions were that complicated. I certainly didn't ask you to give the same song and dance about why you changed the dates of your claim. Tom quoted it right above. You've subsequently added the word "subsequently" but the original claim was pretty straightforward. Even if it wasn't, you clarified in post 91 (since deleted) when you listed the "years in question" through 1936.
David,
Do you read what I write?
While you were away on sabbatical for six months or so, this discussion/disagreement began back in February of this year.
Here's the link to it;
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42829.msg930035/#msg930035
Here's what I wrote back then, copied from that link;
My contention that prior to the Depression and the subsequent creation of Bethpage, Cobb's Creek was known as the best public course in the country was greeted with skepticism in some quarters.
Apparently at least one US Pubilnks champion, and one from New York City at that, agreed with me as seen in this 1925 snippet.... ;D
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4338262427_a993624366_o.jpg)
And you're correct, David...Tom can make a list to any date he wants.
But, his list has nothing to do with any claim I've ever made as long as it contains courses opened from 1930-36, as long as it contains resort courses, and I will continue whenever I feel the urge to show his each and every error, and misstatement, and misunderstanding, which is so commonplace as to be almost require a full time staff of editors and is easier than shooting fish in a barrel.
Your reference to my post #91 is also in error, and simply referred to courses where the US Publinks was played, and again was correcting a Tom MacWood error when he claimed that neither Bethpage Black, Bethpage, Red, or Harding Park ever hosted the US Publinks tournament.
As I said, keeping up with his constant misinterpretations and misrepresentations of history is wearisome.
The only reason I care at all to correct him is because my name is regrettably attached to this thread, and because the discussion is based on a purposeful and knowing misrepresentation of what I originally wrote.
Other than that, I have much better things to do than keep up with you and Tom's spiteful, revisionist nonsense.
Perhaps I should just leave this thread to both of you...and the flies.
Have a great day.
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Mike,
I try to read what you write, but when you write the same thing over and over again it gets a bit hard to pay attention.
1. I don't care what you wrote before. My involvement was in reference to your claim on this thread.
2. Even if I cared what you wrote before, that doesn't really clarify the issue at all. I'd still read it as before Bethpage Black. Subsequent doesn't mean what you apparently think it means, I think, because BB was built during the depression, not after.
3. You clarified in POST 91 that the "years in question" were to 1936. Your excuse for this remark is inaccurate and misleading. TomM brought up the other Bethpage Courses in POST 92, after you identified the YEARS IN QUESTION in POST 91. I've explained this to you before, yet you go ahead and misrepresent your reasoning again? What's up with that?
4. At this point it doesn't matter what you want to claim you meant. Tom is interested in courses before Bethpage Black and his list reflects that. The conversation has moved well beyond Cobbs Creek, except in your mind.
5. You seem to be under the impression that if a post sits for a few hours or even days that it somehow isn't worthwhile. This is another indication that you really don't understand how this entire research and analysis process works. It doesn't matter how long it takes or how frequently the posts, provided the research and analysis is solid. I know that you guys think quantity of posts equals quality of posts, but you are mistaken.
6. You still have not established that the course at Sharps Park was created as a result of a Relief Program. Yet you continue to present it as undeniable fact. Doesn't behaving like this bother you even a little? Because it should. Whether you are ultimately correct or incorrect, you just don't have the basis to support your claim, yet you go ahead and and pretend you do.
That is a perfect example of why I am always on you about your methodology, if one can even call it that.
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Mike
Are you under the impression those articles support your claim that Pasadena was a resort course, because they don't. What is your point?
Dan
You are confusing Hershey Park with Hershey CC, which was the big course for the hotel. Hershey Park was a public course separate from the resort. It hosted the US Public Links in 1957 and was on Mike's recently posted Golf Digest public Top 75. I take it you did see his post.
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1. I don't care what you wrote before. My involvement was in reference to your claim on this thread.
David,
1. I don't care what you think. I doubt anyone, anywhere does.
Being an angry, spiteful d*ckhead is no way to go through life, son.
Tom MacWood,
I appreciate your willingness to research and if you ever want to have a serious discussion about pre-Depression public golf, let me know.
I suspect there's a decent guy in there somewhere trying to do the right thing, but you really need to watch the company you keep.
Tootaloo, fellows.
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1. I don't care what you wrote before. My involvement was in reference to your claim on this thread.
David,
1. I don't care what you think. I doubt anyone, anywhere does.
Being an angry, spiteful d*ckhead is no way to go through life, son.
Ahh Yes. Good Ol' Mike. Always willing to carry on a reasonable conversation. Except when he doesn't like where it is going. Then he throws a hissy fit, hurls some ignorant insults, and stamps his feet as if he was storming off.
The anger, spite, etc. seem to be all your own.
Let me narrow down the questions for you, so as to not get you in another huff . . .
1. You clarified in POST 91 that the "years in question" were to 1936. Your excuse for this remark is inaccurate and misleading. TomM brought up the other Bethpage Courses in POST 92, after you identified the YEARS IN QUESTION in POST 91. Why do you keep pretending you were responding to something that hadn't yet happened?
2. You still have not established that the course at Sharps Park was created as a result of a Relief Program. Yet you continue to present it as undeniable fact. Why?
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It would seem the previous post would be far more appropriate, and yes, even factual ;) if the response remained exactly the same but the name "David Moriarty" was substituted in place of "Mike" in the second sentence that reads "Good Ol' Mike."
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There's a good history at http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/sharp-park
One paragraph:
But for the past 77 years, lucky San Francisco muni players and visitors have had Sharp Park – the Pacific Coast’s answer to North Berwick – a place where a remarkably diverse golfing clientele of all races, languages, social classes, and genders pull their carts, hit their shots, and enjoy a beer and a sandwich in a charming 19th hole pub, for a modest weekday greens fee under $30. The Spanish hacienda-style clubhouse was a Works Progress Administration construction project, designed by an associate of Willis Polk, who in turn was head of the San Francisco office of Chicago-based master planner Daniel Burnham. In other words, when constructing Sharp Park – in the dark days of the Great Depression – San Francisco went first-class all the way.
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Thanks for the link Dan.
The clubhouse was built or rebuilt in 1935 or '36 as a WPA project. The course was already there.
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It would seem the previous post would be far more appropriate, and yes, even factual ;) if the response remained exactly the same but the name "David Moriarty" was substituted in place of "Mike" in the second sentence that reads "Good Ol' Mike."
TEPaul, you've posted over 100 times on this thread about public golf courses, a topic about which you admittedly have little interest and less knowledge.
Don't you have anything better to do than follow me and MacWood from thread to thread, being obnoxious and trying to start trouble?
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Durand-Eastman is out and Colony outside Detroit is in.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1926) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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"TEPaul, you've posted over 100 times on this thread about public golf courses, a topic about which you admittedly have little interest and less knowledge.
Don't you have anything better to do than follow me and MacWood from thread to thread, being obnoxious and trying to start trouble?"
No, David Moriarty, I think my postings on this thread (or most any other you are part of) have a very valid point and purpose. You, by your own admission, have said on here this thread is a subject you don't have much knowledge of as well. It seems you're only point and purpose on this thread is to continue to play your petty little "legal-mind games" to skew Cirba and some point he made about Philadelphia's Cobbs Creek and the comparative quality of it at some point in time.
I'll say again, IF YOU had done one tenth of the good work in your entire career with golf course architecture that Cirba has done with the hopeful and potential restoration effort of Cobbs Creek, then you might have some good right to be proud of yourself with your involvement with GCA, and this website----but the FACT is even that's not remotely true!
I admit, and have before, that one of my primary purposes on this website, is to follow you around from thread to thread and point out to anyone on or observing this website just what an intellectually bankrupt fraud you really are----and frankly the best and classic example of that is your transparently agenda-driven, remarkalbly illogical (lack of factual support and pumped full of unfactually supported OPINIONATED assumptions, premises and conclusions) ESSAY---eg the IMO piece "The Missing Faces of Merion."
The FACT is, Moriarty, I am never going to let you forget that outrageous and pathetic travesty, your follow up to it and your on-going MO on here, no matter which thread you post on and particularly any on which you mention the efficacy of an IMO PIECE, particularly from me in response to you!!!! ;)
This DG is where we both can and should do our discussions. If you aren't willing or if you are unable to abide by that I think it says a whole lot about both you and your MO on here and I don't expect to stop pointing that out about you on here any time soon.
As far as MacWood is concerned; he seems to be just trucking on with his 23 page lists of courses without a single person on here understanding what in the world he is doing it for other than some vague reason to counterpoint Cirba for what he once said about a public golf course in Philadelphia perhaps some months ago.
Personally, I don't think you and MacWood are even close to similar but together you two make up a pretty ridiculuous combo somehow and compared to Cirba and what he's all about and has and is trying to do with GCA, I doubt 20 of you two combined could ever hold a candle to him in anyone's opinion!
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Tom Paul,
As a friend I strongly urge you to reconsider what you posted to David. It is one thing to have strong disagreements, heaven knows that I've had more than my share with him, but following him "around from thread to thread and point out to anyone on or observing this website just what an intellectually bankrupt fraud" you believe he really is wrong on any number of levels.
If he is "intellectually bankrupt" as you say it will indeed be easy for any and all to see.
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TEPaul,
I said I didn't know enough about public courses to pick a "best" prior to 1936. But unlike you I do know quite a bit about some of them, especially those out West. I am also familiar with the general history and evolution of public golf nationwide. And, unlike you, I am not here trying to waste anyone's time, like you are.
Like everything else you think you know about me, you have NO IDEA what I may have done or not done regarding public golf. Not all of us feel the need to broadcast every move we make when it comes to golf courses.
As for the rest of your post, quoted below, if this is what you live for you are about as pathetic as I thought.
Pity your polluting Ran's website with your petty vendetta.
I admit, and have before, that one of my primary purposes on this website, is to follow you around from thread to thread and point out to anyone on or observing this website just what an intellectually bankrupt fraud you really are----and frankly the best and classic example of that is your transparently agenda-driven, remarkalbly illogical (lack of factual support and pumped full of unfactually supported OPINIONATED assumptions, premises and conclusions) ESSAY---eg the IMO piece "The Missing Faces of Merion."
The FACT is, Moriarty, I am never going to let you forget that outrageous and pathetic travesty, your follow up to it and your on-going MO on here, no matter which thread you post on and particularly any on which you mention the efficacy of an IMO PIECE, particularly from me in response to you!!!! ;)
This DG is where we both can and should do our discussions. If you aren't willing or if you are unable to abide by that I think it says a whole lot about both you and your MO on here and I don't expect to stop pointing that out about you on here any time soon.
As far as MacWood is concerned; he seems to be just trucking on with his 23 page lists of courses without a single person on here understanding what in the world he is doing it for other than some vague reason to counterpoint Cirba for what he once said about a public golf course in Philadelphia perhaps some months ago.
Personally, I don't think you and MacWood are even close to similar but together you two make up a pretty ridiculuous combo somehow and compared to Cirba and what he's all about and has and is trying to do with GCA, I doubt 20 of you two combined could ever hold a candle to him in anyone's opinion!
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Pity your polluting Ran's website with your petty vendetta.
Now, THAT might just be the funniest thing I've ever read here.
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Here are a couple of views of Brackenridge Park in San Antonio and Twin Hills in Oklahoma City. Twin Hills hosted the 1934 Western Am and 1935 PGA. Brackenridge was a long-time site for the Texas Open.
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"But unlike you I do know quite a bit about some of them, especially those out West. I am also familiar with the general history and evolution of public golf nationwide."
David Moriarty:
I'm quite sure you do know more about public golf and public golf courses than I do, but I guarantee you that isn't saying very much about you and what you know about public golf and public courses. ;)
The only ones I recall ever trying to study were Cobbs, Flynn's Marble Hall (now the private club Green Valley) and Sharp Park recently with Bob Crosby.
However, it seems to me the one who really knows public golf and public courses is Mike Cirba. It seems he has pretty much made a life-long mission of playing them and studying them and all over the country, which makes it so ironic that you feel the need to argue with him about every single little trivial point imaginable. There is no question you are the one who began a vendetta. It started with your participation on those Merion threads some years ago, then that incredibly inaccurate IMO piece on here where the last thing you considered doing is collaborating with people here who really have the knowledge of the history of that course and real familiarity with it, unlike you. That was confirmed by your own admission on here that you were only interested in learning about it. If you were why didn't you seek out all those that really do know it rather than somehow attempting to confront them about it? ???
It was really clear all you were trying to do is somehow embarrass most of us here and it's never stopped as you continue to argue with Cirba and on any thread he is on for virtually years now.
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I've added the yardage and par:
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting 6505 73
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie 6280 72
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie 6154 71
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas 6408 71
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas 6283 71
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke 6460 73
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell 6425 71
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell 6555 72
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell 6318 71
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr 6419 72
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson 6425 71
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn 6488 72
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett 6322 70
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross 6282 72
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn 6188 ?
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen 6595 71
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross 6317 71
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead 6519 72
Cog Hill #2 (1926) – D.McIntosh 6120 72
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil 6574 72
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow 6257 70
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman 6710 72
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie 6535 70
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff 6585 71
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson 6200 72
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell 6745 72
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell 6375 70
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil 6212 71
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay 6487 70
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles 6309 72
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook 6885 72
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson 6601 72
Colony (1926) – CH.Alison 6465 70
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross 6445 71
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark 6368 70
Keller (1929) - P.Coates 6544 72
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis 6390 72
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray 6625 71
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast 6319 72
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis 6269 72
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie 6485 71
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast 6468 70
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast 6695 71
Green Lake (1936) – RT.Jones 6212 71
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek 6681 72
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet 6200 73
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek 6624 71
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross 6412 72
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek 6716 71
Community (1912) - W.Hoare 6341 71
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross 6511 70
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves 6505 73
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson 6125 70
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves 6550 72
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber 6610 71
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell 6465 70
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan 6139 71
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson 6252 71
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy 6185 71
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn 6439 71
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler 6490 72
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast 6700 71
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross 6449 72
Stevens Park (1924) 6385 71
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke 6220 74
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast 6207 72
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus 6920 72
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan 6277 70
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James 6450 72
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen 6575 71
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris 6240 72
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford 6690 72
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A green at Brookside 1, from about 1930 (during second course construction.)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Misc/10thGreen.jpg?t=1280894765)
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I added Kelsey City.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Kelsey City (1924) - W.Langford (W.Palm Beach, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1926) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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I added Kelsey City.
Tom,
You're now adding nine-hole courses in resort communities like West Palm Beach?
Seriously, is it because you think people here will recognize the name William Langford and think it must have been terrific?
What can you tell us specifically about the quality of the golf course...not some news artvertisement designed to sell real estate mind you...what can you, Tom MacWood tell us about the golf course since this is your list?
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Tom MacWood,
We can debate the inclusion or exclusion of certain courses on this list based on quality, but there's hardly a course here that I wouldn't classify as "Public", at least in the 1982 timeframe the course was put together, with the possible exception of Edgewood Tahoe, which probably got on simply through having hosted the 1980 US Publinks tournament, and possibly beginning some of the confusion.
FIRST TEN
Brown Deer Park - Milwaukee, WI - 1929
Cog Hill #4 - Lemont, IL - 1964
Edgewood Tahoe - Stateline, NV - 1968
Indian Canyon - Spokane, WA - 1934
Otter Creek - Columbus, IN - 1964
Plumas Lake - Marysville, CA - 1926
Tanglewood - Clemmons, NC - 1958
Torrey Pines South - La Jolla, CA - 1957
Wailua - Kauai, HI - 1960
West Palm Beach - WPB, FL - 1947
Mike
When you posted this list you didn't seem to have a problem with a public course in West Palm Beach (or Kauai for that matter).
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Mike
Here is a schematic of the course. IMO it looks like a fascinating design; one that could have easily been considered amongst the top public courses at the time. Especially when one considers who was responsible for it. I found this blurb in American Golfer. It is interesting the author confused Langford's work with that of Raynor & Banks.
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Tom,
Interesting that you seem to get your opinions of golf courses back then from the frequent News Artvertisements that ran in most northern cities each week looking for resort travellers.
Why didn't you post what Daniel Wexler wrote about it since you posted his drawing. I wonder where he got his bunkering patterns from?
"This William Langford nine, built for resort developer Harry Kelsey, was short-lived and woefully undocumented. Located west of Route 1 (which would not be along the ocean - comment mine) and south of Northlake Avenue, it wandered through thick Florida scrub, making use of native sand on several holes, including both par threes. Interestingly, it appears that no clubhouse was everr built, though a clearing near the ninth green clearly suggested its in intended location."
Card yardage on what sounds to be flat Florida terrain through scrub was 3135.
I'm not sure what "short-lived" means...I know it was still around by 1935 (opened in 1924). Sounds a bit like the description of Sharp Park.
Sounds scintillating. I'm sure it was one of the very best resort community golf courses built before the end of 1936. ::)
Originally Kelsey's plans for "Kelsey City" included three Donald Ross courses with all the usual resort and real estate amenities particular to South Florida, particularly during those development years, but that never came to fruition, obviously.
btw...West Palm Beach Municipal which made Golf Digests 1980 list of Top Public courses is a course built by the city chiefly for its residents and maintains very affordable golf to this day. You should try to play it sometime...it's very good.
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Mike
Kelsey City was a planned community (Olmsted Brothers) with a daily fee golf course. Here is a link to its history.
You seem to have a double standard when it comes public golf courses past and present. In 1923 West Palm Beach is a resort community, but today it is your average municiplaity with a public golf course.
http://www.lakeparkflorida.gov/page.asp?PageId=2
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Tom,
Kelsey City GC was around until at least 1935 (opened in 1924). If it had been renowned in any way as a golf course I'm sure someone, somewhere would have reported that, and not just the normal travel advertisement blurbs.
I would agree with you that it was a public golf course in a planned resort community, although the original intent was to be part of a resort community. That really never happened, for whatever reason (I think there was a bridge needing to be built that didn't happen) so instead of the originally planned 3 Donald Ross courses, they ended up with nine stranded holes built by Langford, a good friend of the developer, which were indeed open to the public.
I'm not disqualifying it as not being a public course (albeit in a very rich resort area) and intended as part of a resort community...I'm simply saying it wasn't one of the best and really doesn't deserve a spot on your list based on anything I can find.
Hope that helps.
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Mike
I'm not surprised there was not more written about Kelsey City beyond the Innis Brown article calling the course splendid. It was a nine-hole course which would limit its exposure, and there was a lot of stiff competition in South Florida and in particular Palm Beach, and the project took a turn for the worst after the great hurricane of 1928. You'll find even less written about Opa Locka and Wayne Morrison places it near the top of Flynn's best courses. Kelsey looks like a hell of design to me.
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Tom,
Are you saying that from an aerial drawing of the course, and from no other contemporaneous accounts, no other laudatory comments besides the Innis Brown article that mistakenly suggests the course was built by Raynor, that you fnd it a "hell of a design"?
No offense, but I find that to be typical of the approach you take, which I feel is very short-sighted and limited by definition.
I don't know how you can look at a course you've never played, on land you've never visited, and see a flat, two-dimension drawing of hole lengths and widths, and make some determination as to its quality.
Nevertheless, for your list purposes, even if it was a super nine-holer, I'm more of the mindset that a nine-holer has to be almost herculean in quality to approach a quality eighteen hole course. There are very, very few that do, and that's not just prejudicial to nine-hole courses as simply reflecting the reality that a larger course gives more opportunity for variety, quantity of superb, interesting holes, and general spaciousness.
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Tom,
Are you saying that from an aerial drawing of the course, and from no other contemporaneous accounts, no other laudatory comments besides the Innis Brown article that mistakenly suggests the course was built by Raynor, that you fnd it a "hell of a design"?
No offense, but I find that to be typical of the approach you take, which I feel is very short-sighted and limited by definition.
I don't know how you can look at a course you've never played, on land you've never visited, and see a flat, two-dimension drawing of hole lengths and widths, and make some determination as to its quality.
Nevertheless, for your list purposes, even if it was a super nine-holer, I'm more of the mindset that a nine-holer has to be almost herculean in quality to approach a quality eighteen hole course. There are very, very few that do, and that's not just prejudicial to nine-hole courses as simply reflecting the reality that a larger course gives more opportunity for variety, quantity of superb, interesting holes, and general spaciousness.
That is exactly what I'm saying. I'd also add the fact that William Langford designed and built the golf course was a factor as well. In my experience his courses are remarkably consistent with a very distinct style. I have not played a Langford course that was not very good, and this one was in his backyard.
Do you have a problem with Wayne Morrison placing Opa Locka near the top of Flynn's courses?
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Here is a map of Colony (from Daniel Wexler's Lost Links), which was located on Lake St. Claire outside of Detroit. It is typical of CH Alison's work with its bunkering style and the use of the stream. The course was actually built in a marsh with the fairways and greens being more or less islands within it. The course struggled through the Depression before succumbing during WWII. The design included series of pumps and dikes to control the water level, but when gas rationing went into effect the club gave up and the course went back to its natural state, which is where it is today. Here is link to the St. John Marsh. The course was located at the most westerly do not enter area, the area with the diagonal stream.
http://www.claytownship.org/about/stjcu03/index.asp
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I've added Miami Municipal designed by Langford & Moreau.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Kelsey City (1924) - W.Langford (W.Palm Beach, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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Tom, what can you tell us about Colony as a golf coiurse?
I don't see a mention of it in any accounts of the time...if a tree falls...?
How bout Miami..what was it's chief attribute?
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Tom,
Are you still considering Long Beach Muni? Sounds like it was a pretty solid course.
How about Los Serranos Country Club, John Duncan Dunn, from the mid 1920s? I think it was built to be private, but I am not sure it ever was. It was definitely public in the late 1920s.
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Tom, what can you tell us about Colony as a golf coiurse?
I don't see a mention of it in any accounts of the time...if a tree falls...?
How bout Miami..what was it's chief attribute?
I can't tell you a lot about Colony. I can tell you a lot about CH Alison however; he rarely missed the mark. I've been to the site of Colony and it is spectacular. Based on the aerial I have no doubt it would have been near the top of my list.
There were quite a few articles written about Miami Muni. It hosted a long line of professional and amateur events. Here is a link to one of the articles.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1925/ag281q.pdf
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Tom,
Are you still considering Long Beach Muni? Sounds like it was a pretty solid course.
How about Los Serranos Country Club, John Duncan Dunn, from the mid 1920s? I think it was built to be private, but I am not sure it ever was. It was definitely public in the late 1920s.
I'm considering it among several other courses. Sunset Valley in another California course I'm looking at.
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I can't tell you a lot about Colony. I can tell you a lot about CH Alison however; he rarely missed the mark. I've been to the site of Colony and it is spectacular. Based on the aerial I have no doubt it would have been near the top of my list.
There were quite a few articles written about Miami Muni. It hosted a long line of professional and amateur events. Here is a link to one of the articles.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1925/ag281q.pdf
Tom,
In the case of Colony, I don't know...if it were me, I guess I'd prefer to judge the golf course, but I guess it's a start that you visited the site, even sans a golf course and declared it to be one of your favorites. ;)
I have to wonder, though. If the course existed for over a decade, and was so spectacular, why do you think no one in the world ever noticed, or at least never wrote a thing about it? Could you at least post the aerial photo so we can see it in two-dimension? Not the Wexler drawing...the aerial photo if you would. I have both of Dan's books.
As far as Miami, I see your point.
That writer was very objective and I'm glad that not a single course in Scotland, England, or the States could surpass this preeminent "George" Langford design. ;) ;D
I think you need to get a bit more critical in your list qualifications, Tom. Pretty sketchy at present, if you ask me. ;)
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A correction was printed in a subsequent issue.
I think I have been extremely critical in determining which courses make the list, and which ones I have disqualified. I have disqualified quite a few. Written accounts are only one determiner, an important one, but not the only one. One has to remember quality was not the only reason a course got written about in the golf publications of the day. I've learned through my research on Ohio State GC, Colt, etc. that politicking was a major factor in who got written about and who did not. Often it was who you knew or if you advertised or spent money with. The few courses that were not written about (or not written about much), like Colony, Opa Locka and Daly City, were part of real estate developments that struggled mightily and were short lived.
Based on the site, based on the layout and based on who designed it, is there any reason for you to conclude Colony was not among the best 70 public golf courses of the time, and probably closer to the top rather than the bottom?
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Based on the site, based on the layout and based on who designed it, is there any reason for you to conclude Colony was not among the best 70 public golf courses of the time, and probably closer to the top rather than the bottom?
Tom,
That's my point...I know absolutely nothing about it, and I doubt you and/or Dan Wexler know anything much about it either, although you say it was a great site that you visited.
I think my exact comment originally was something like "was regarded before the Depression as the most demanding and best public course...".
I cannot for the life of me tell how Colony was regarded because in any number of historical news archive subscriptions I have, I cannot find a single mention of the course, which tells me that almost no one knew it existed at the time.
How highly regarded could it have been?
I like Charles Alison too, but I get the sense that your list is more based on the reputation of the architect than any understanding about the quality and/or reputation of the course at the time it existed. In the case of Colony, I'm not sure I find it appealing to think that the fairways and greens were essentially islands in swampland....
Is there an aerial that exists, other than the drawing in Dan Wexler's book?
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I posted the aerial.
Based on the site, based on the layout and based on who designed it, is there any reason for you to conclude Colony was not among the best 70 public golf courses of the time, and probably closer to the top rather than the bottom?
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Tom,
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but my whole basis for determining status of courses during that period is sort of like the celebrity test.
If a course got a lot of press and favorable comments by knowledgeable people of the time it was likely a very good course.
Otherwise, we're guessing at what might have been.
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Tom,
As I've been following along with some interest in this thread without commenting for quite a while, when you just said that you "posted the aerial" for Colony I decided to go back and take a look at it and i found two problems.
First, it appears you didn't post it in the last three pages so i was wondering if you might remember exactly where it is.
Secondly, and more importantly, I would have kept searching except I noticed that EVERY one of your photo posts can not be seen. I only see a text box with a big red "x" in it but no picture. You may be having a problem with what you are posting and not know it...
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Wayne Morrison places Opa Locka near the top of Flynn's resume and there is even less info on that golf course. When it comes to these types of historical evalutions its always subjective, especially lost courses. Evaluating courses that are a shadow of their former self, like Cobbs Creek & Sharp Park, is a guessing game too. And speaking of guessing games, it doesn't get more subjective than this statement:
However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
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Tom,
You're asking me to comment on/evaluate a course that existed for a brief flicker of time that I can't even find proof existed at all.
No one at that time chronicled it that has been preserved, which begs the question...if it was so damn good, why not??
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Do you think Wexler fabricated the info on Colony? Typically you won't find much info on golf courses that opened and closed during the Depression. One of the problems being the major golf magazines of the era went under circa 1935-36. Thankfully in the case of Colony we know the site, the layout and the architect were all outstanding.
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Tom,
I don't think anyone fudged anything, but Daniel Wexler's account doesn't provide much info about Colony either.
It's your list, Tom...you don't need my agreement, but since it's under my name I will question your picks when unclear as to your reasons in the interest of all of us learning more about them.
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It's your list, Tom...you don't need my agreement, but since it's under my name I will question your picks when unclear as to your reasons in the interest of all of us learning more about them.
Big surprise there, ever since the focus of the thread shifted to addressing your crazy statement you've been complaining more than a menstruating teenager...and it has nothing to do with whose name is on the thread.
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Tom,
Menstruating Teenager here... sorry to complain again, but can you PLEASE check the images you are pasting as they simply don't show up when I come on the thread. All that appears is a red "X" in a box.
I really would like to see the aerial for Colony...
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Tom,
If I didn't respond questioning your unilateral and unsubstantiated nominations, who would?
Why, this thread would simply fall of the first page into GCA-nether-regions every single day, and none of us here would ever want such a travesty to occur.
Oh wait... ;) ;D
p.s. If you're still working this hard to dispute my "crazy statement" over two months after the fact...well, actually 6 months since I first made the statement on another thread in February, that simply tells me that you aren't very confident with your list as evidence to dispute it. Adding in the post-1929 courses and the elite, second-home resort community courses that have nothing at all to do with any claim of mine and you still aren't confident? Sheesh...who's the menstruating teenager here? ::)
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Phil-the-author
The site must be experiencing technical difficulties because all of the images I've posted in the past month are gone too.
Mike
Your ridiculous statement was settled a long time ago, we've now moved on to just how asinine was it phase. Was it just a slightly asinine statement or was it an over-the-top-you-need-your-head-examined asinine statement or somewhere in between. Its looking more like the over-the-top variety.
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Tom,
Good one. ;D
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Tom,
It's 10:53pm EST and this thread has once again fallen like a rock onto the second page.
I started feeling a bit sorry for it so thought I'd give it a bump.
I'd hate to see where it was by morning if I hadn't acted. ;) ;D
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Mike Cirba,
Can you explain why you are constantly monitoring where this thread is among the pages? You've probably made a dozen references to it falling off the first page. Would falling off the first page indicate that it had no value? Is that what were here for? To try and see if we can keep our threads on the first page? Just how fast should a conversation on very old public courses move in order for it to be worthy in your eyes? The way I see it, Tom MacWood is the pretty much the only one adding anything of value, so the proper pace is at his leisure.
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Mike,
Big surprise there, ever since the focus of the thread shifted to addressing your crazy statement you've been complaining more than a menstruating teenager...and it has nothing to do with whose name is on the thread. - Tom MacWood
Mike
Your ridiculous statement was settled a long time ago, we've now moved on to just how asinine was it phase. Was it just a slightly asinine statement or was it an over-the-top-you-need-your-head-examined asinine statement or somewhere in between. Its looking more like the over-the-top variety. - Tom MacWood[
David,
Would you like my Top 10 reasons?
10. Like a Bad Penny, It keeps turning up.
9. The thread is directed at me personally
8. If I don't correct all the errors here, who will
7. I can't wait to see what obscure, never-heard-of course is nominated next
6. Like a stolen car in a high speed chase, I'm waiting to see the threadjacked vehicle hit the wall
5. I'm still waiting to see a more highly regarded pre-Depression course named
4. I'm trying to see if Tom can name-drop every Golden Age archie on one thread
3. Given the value per post here, bandwidth must be cheap
2. It keeps Tom off the Merion threads
and the Top Reason given for why I respond to Tom here?
1. After you and Tom thredjacked what was previously a valuable historical thread, someone has to show the love and respond. After all, who else in their right mind would read this? :P ;D
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I've removed Hollywood in Florida; it was directly connected to a hotel.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Kelsey City (1924) - W.Langford (W.Palm Beach, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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And David...I thought I was being rather restrained with my Top 10 Reasons.
I heard that a straw poll was taken of the other 4 people who read this thread, and their Number One answer given when asked why they checked this thread was;
"I find it highly entertaining to watch Tom compare the quality of courses he's never been to from 15,000 foot aerials." ;) ;D
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Mike, Whatever idiocy started the inquiry it has actually evolved into something interesting -- an attempt by Tom Macwood to figure out which were the better public courses prior to Bethpage Black. Your ten reasons notwithstanding, I've no idea why you keep trying to make it about you, or why you equate a thread's value to how long it stays on the first page.
As for your original pronouncement, my position is the same at is has always been. It has never been my job or Tom's job to prove you wrong, but your job to prove it right. And, ironically, all your complaints about Tom trying to figure this stuff out with limited information apply to you in spades.
Think about it. When you made your claim, it wasn't just about Cobbs. It was about every single public course in the country during the relevant time period. Despite your pronouncement that you consider yourself the World's foremost expert on these things, you knew (and know) little or nothing about the quality and difficulty of many of these courses in the relevant time period. How could you?
So every time you complain about Tom MacWood considering a course based on limited information, the same complaint applies to you as well. The only difference is that Tom MacWood is at least trying to figure out what was good. You just propped up Cobbs and dissed everything else without even bothering.
So why not drop the sarcasm and narcissism and either step aside or try to help?
"I find it highly entertaining to watch Tom compare the quality of courses he's never been to from 15,000 foot aerials." ;) ;D
I'm glad you are entertained. But your indignation about Tom's efforts ought to help you understand the indignation about your Cobb's claim. At least Tom MacWood is trying to reasonably consider the quality of this large grouping of public courses. You didn't even bother.
Surely it is better to consider the quality of courses from 15,000 feet than to summarily dismiss them without considering their quality at all.
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Oh David...c'mon, I'm trying to interject some humor here, which is much, much needed.
I know precisely what Tom is trying to do, and I reserve the right to question his selections, as does everyone else.
Sometimes, that process even yields valuable information, such as my discovering that the history of Sharp Park which was much different from the accounts in either Tom Doak's MacKenzie book, or Daniel Wexler's "Lost Links" books.
No biggie...both men were trying to cover broad topics, but I'm glad we now know that the original SP course lasted almost a decade, that H. Chandler Egan was heavily involved, and I think it gives us a more accurate perspective of its original standing among public courses. I think we found that much of what we originally believed about that standing was based at least somewhat on the star-crossed myth created around it in modern times.
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Mike,
You can't be bitter, angry, and indignant for months and then try to write it off to humor when called out for it. Unless you were trying to mock yourself, but I don't think you were.
As far as Sharp Park goes, your proclimation that it was a course originally created with depression relief funds remains unsubstantiated.
I don't understand why you keep patting yourself on the back for supposedly "discovering" the date the course was rebuilt? Had you been paying any attention to the debate up there, you'd have known this. The source of your discovery was information published by other researchers in last year! You needn't have even left this website to find your "discovery." From the Links & Harris piece posted in the IMO section in the past year:
Urban legend long had it that portions of the original course were washed away in the 1930s by powerful winter storms. But in truth, the course weathered the storms until 1941, when the original strand holes (Nos. 3 and 7) were replaced by an unreinforced sea wall, and four excellent new holes were built by MacKenzie’s associate Jack Fleming, who by then had become San Francisco’s supervisor of golf. The new holes were built (following MacKenzie’s death in 1934) in a canyon east of the rest of the golf course, located on the other side of what was then state Highway 1. (An aerial photograph taken in March 1941 shows the original course still intact; the picture was taken just prior to the building of Fleming’s four new holes.)
Given your self-appointed status as the World's most knowledgeable expert on early public golf courses in America, I would have thought you would have at least taken a look.
Your ability to "discover" things that had been brought forward by others reminds me of something, but I just can't put my finger on it . . .
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Davud,
I would agree that much of the humor found on this thread is largely unintentional, but at least I recognize it. ;)
As far as the myths around SP, they were being perpetuated here until I posted the contemporaneous news articles. At one point, I was even accused of starting the rumor that the holes washed into the sea!
No biggie...if TD and DW can get it wrong, then perhaps we shouldn't be so harsh on old Des Tolhurst. ;). ;D
btw, As Sean Tully pointed out, the idea of a golf course at Sharp Park had been talked about and proposed for years. But as I discovered, it wasn't until a depression-era, $9 million Public Works Program was approved by the City of San Francisco in 1931 that the project got funded and built. If you think that particular earmarked spending wasn't about stimulating the local economy and more specifically, JOBS creation, I have a bridge for sale. ::)
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Mike,
"Around here?" It doesn't get much more "around here" than in an IMO on this site. But this certainly isn't the first time you guys have "discovered" things straight out of an IMO.
It is misleading and unsupported to pretend that this was depression relief spending. Government spending and business spending were very high at the beginning of the decade. Not because of relief efforts, but because they hadn't yet figured out what was ongoing. Thus the absurdity of planning to build a yacht basin for the city.
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David,
I'm not going to argue the timing of Great Depression era government relief spending except to remind you that even conservative Pres Hoover was trying to create huge public works programs in 1931, directly as a result of huge jobless rates that were happening everywhere in the country after Oct 1929.
Should I re-post all of the contemporaneous SP articles I found that document the timeline? I don't think you'll find them in the IMO section.
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Why would you repost those articles when none of them supports your claim? Reposting a bunch of tangential articles that do not really address the issue wouldn't justify your claim that the course was paid for from relief spending any more than it did the first time you posted them.
If the particular spending at issue was part of a relief program, that should be easy enough for you to establish.
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David,
This is really not worth arguing about to me...we're splitting hairs and I'd rather we just be glad we all have more info on the history of Sharp Park.
Thanks.
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That's fine Mike, I was just setting the record straight after you again injected your "discovery" about SP back into the conversation.
But I am still curious as to why you criticize Tom M for trying to understand these courses based on limited information, yet you are comfortable judging them and dismissing them based on no information at all. Isn't an opinion based on limited information preferable to a claim of fact based on nothing at all?
Also Mike, don't you think it is about time you dropped the pettiness onthe title of the thread? Or if you insist on being petty, shouldn't you at least get your facts straight? 1936 was by no means "post -depression era."
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That's fine Mike, I was just setting the record straight after you again injected your "discovery" about SP back into the conversation.
But I am still curious as to why you criticize Tom M for trying to understand these courses based on limited information, yet you are comfortable judging them and dismissing them based on no information at all. Isn't an opinion based on limited information preferable to a claim of fact based on nothing at all?
Also Mike, don't you think it is about time you dropped the pettiness onthe title of the thread? Or if you insist on being petty, shouldn't you at least get your facts straight? 1936 was by no means "post -depression era."
David,
I'm not sure I understand your criticism.
In most cases, I dug up much more actual information about the courses in question than Tom provided, or alternatively probed him to provide more evidence to bolster his selection.
Such posts as "Added Swan Valley and deleted Crow's Cave" do very little to advance the conversation or anyone's understanding, you'll have to admit. Similarly, fuzzy aerials from 10,000 feet are not very illustrative.
Give me some prominent players and news observers of the day talking about the course, or news articles speaking to its reputation for demanding, interesting golf. Don't give me a name-dropped list of prominent architects and tell me that the courses had to therefore be good, even if no one has ever heard of the courses, or wrote about them during their heyday.
Where I've also consistently objected is courses created after 1929, which is outside the scope of my original statement, as evidenced in my very first post to you on this thread, and those courses built for resort second-home communities, which were as "public" as Olympia Snowe is a rock-ribbed conservative Republican. Almost all of those courses were associated with hotels, and with real-estate developments, often with yacht slips for parking, and were simply open to the public, who were rich vacationers able to afford their significant green fees until the housing elements were filled, at which time most became exclusive private communities.
In either case, courses in each category have nothing to do with any claim I ever made.
As I've said all along, I'd be happy to take any true public course opened prior to the Depression and discuss/debate the merits and reputation of it against Cobb's Creek during those years.
The fact that Tom needs to misrepresent my claim shows his complete lack of confidence in refuting it.
I've changed the title, but I'm not sure the best way to indicate courses built in the seven years after the Market Crash that takes us through 1936, which Tom insists on using.. I'm open to suggestions.
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I've added Cooper River in Camden.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Kelsey City (1924) - W.Langford (W.Palm Beach, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Cooper River (1929) - D.Emmet & A.Tull (Camden, NJ)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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I am referring to your insistence on claiming that "in fact" Cobb's was the absolute best despite the fact that you knew little or nothing about the quality of the many or most of the other courses. At least Tom is attempting to figure it out. You just made your pronouncement as fact without bothering any sort of a coherent analysis of the rest of the pool.
As for suggestions as to the title, how about "Tom MacWood's list of Top Public Courses before Bethpage Black" because that is what it is. No need to try and trivialize it with your pithy editorializing and qualifying about post-Depression (inaccurate) or resort community (incoherent.) People can read the thread and the list and come to their own conclusions.
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David,
Is that what he's doing? Hmmmm...could have fooled me.
I've carefully considered your suggested name change, buried as it is within a litany of snide remarks and insults and have decided...nah...the title doesn't fit.
I can think of much more appropriate, accurate one's but I'll exercise some restraint. Plus, if Tom wants to have his own thread and authorship of the topic title you guys really shouldn't have threadjacked mine. There's nothing preventing him from starting his own thread and cutting and pasting his list over there and he can call it whatever he likes.
Even ignoring Tom' intent and motive way too many courses on his list have nothing in the world to do with true public golf as you and I know it at places like Cobbs Creek and Rustic Canyon. I haven't pulled my yacht up to either and I doubt you have either, nor stayed at the luxury hotel next door that was paying for the golf course expenses, nor bought an estate home along its fairways.
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Yes Mike, that is what he is doing. That is why he continues to research courses and make changes.He is creating his list, Tom MacWood's List of Top Public Courses before Bethpage Black. That is what the thread should be called.
Fascinating that you still see this as a direct affront to you. I guess that explains your continued sarcasm and obstructionist attitude. But surely any point he wanted to make about Cobbs was made made long ago.
As for what you term as my "snide remarks and insults" you'll have to be more specific. I think I have fairly and accurately described what is ongoing.
-- Didn't you claim "in fact" that Cobb's was the absolute best despite that you knew little or nothing about the quality of the many or most of the other courses?
-- Isn't it true that Tom is actually trying some sort of coherent analysis of the quality public courses before Bethpage?
-- Isn't it true that you never attempted a coherent analysis of each of the public courses in the relevant time period?
-- Isn't it true that you've changed the title multiple times, sometimes making it rude and insulting, but at the very least trying to trivialize the thread and making a terse and vigorous editorial comment expressing your disgust with Tom MacWood's list?
-- Isn't it true that your description of courses opening in the mid-1930's as "post-depression" is wholly inaccurate?
-- Isn't it true that your "resort community courses" is ill-defined and difficult to work with, and has nothing to do with any standard that Tom MacWood has chosen for Tom MacWood's list?
-- Isn't it true that the list might just be interesting and useful to some, and that they would perfectly capable of reading the thread and coming to their own conclusions without your jamming your opinion down their throat in the title?
I ask all this because I am fascinated that you would think my post was snide and insulting. If a mild and accurate description of your behavior strikes you as snide and insulting, then perhaps your behavior is not what you think it is.
________________
Lastly, Mike, and frankly, this manipulation of the title is low class rhetorical move. Again you are trying to control what people think before they ever get a chance to consider the substance of the conversation. Putting your editorializing in the title makes it impossible for the other side to adequately and equally respond.
That you need to control the conversation by such trickery speaks to the substance of your position.
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I really don't care what the thread is called just as long its called something....what's the old line about being called to dinner? I thought the no title example above probably brought more attention to the thread than anything I could have called it. And 10,000+ views later its still going strong although I will be winding it up soon.
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David,
You really need to chill...I thought California guys were supposed to be laid back?
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David,
You really need to chill...I thought California guys were supposed to be laid back?
Chill? This coming from a guy who has changed the title of the thread more than half a dozen times and deleted half of his posts.
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Tom,
I just didn't want to play the silly games you both foisted onto what had been a valuable historical thread.
I've since learned to just laugh along with everyone else and just consider the sources and the axes you're both still grinding.
Life's too short for this type of nonsense. I seriously hope you both find better things to do with your time than worry about my opinion of a golf course for months on end.
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David,
You really need to chill...I thought California guys were supposed to be laid back?
Chill? This coming from a guy who has changed the title of the thread more than half a dozen times and deleted half of his posts...and convinced others to delete their posts too. Wow.
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I'm chilled, Mike. Compared to you I am an ice age. Just hoping to get you to quit trying to obstruct Tom M's progress. But I won't hold my breath.
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David...Tom...
Sing along with me...
"I feel pretty
Oh so pretty
I feel pretty and witty and gay
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me today
I feel charming
Oh so charming
It's alarming how charming I feel
And so pretty
That I hardly can believe I'm real
See the pretty girl in that mirror there?
Who can that attractive girl be?
Such a pretty face
Such a pretty dress
Such a pretty smile
Such a pretty me!."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9sE55QzXlo
There...doesn't that feel much better? ;) ;D
If that doesn't work we're going to do some Far Eastern Yoga next.
I'll have you guys loosened up sooner or later. ;D
-
The Sound of Music, no wonder you're so uptight. Try this:
I strong
Man this is free yeah
And your soul
you hear from dem
I love
And this is free
Unto the sun man will see make dem trying
I row Jah to dem
I’m the top the mountain rasta say
You better better pull it pull it man ah pull it pull it man
Nor I afraid
We were once sitting in the darkness
With a stone
With no flash man no light nah go lighting in my love
But be not afraid
The dragon that sleep up in the darkness
Nothing but night
Live your life right until the day spark day light
Hide amongst the hills and the valleys
Up in the soul you mighty sweat yeah
You haffi roam you haffi sweat
You better chant a song to dem man say
I oooooh row oh jah
Man Warrior oh jah yeah
One step out false prophet
Who stand upon a magic carpet
Tell dem these songs
Tell of glory
Tell dem dem are futurs inna the storys
All lighting striking pon the hills and land
And our children see
No one fuss and no one shall be fighting
Rally upon the heart sweated for ease man joke as talk my friend
Bbbbbbblow
Jordan river haffi flow man
Bbbbbbblow
Fire say will Jah comon with
We ah say
We are warrior
Warrior song big up big up up your warrior song (SOUND) yeah
Blow love blow love blove love
Have it have it have it
My friend you have it have it have it
Red eye red eye red eye
Red fall brimstone from sky
Still the babylonian wonder why
Time dread time is dread
Rastafari say
-
I'll have you guys loosened up sooner or later. ;D
Mike, it never ceases to amaze me how consistently you can be wrong about such a wide range of topics. I'm plenty relaxed. But Yoga might work for you though.
-
Here is link to some photographs of Cooper River in Camden, NJ. It looks like an interesting design, with a very unusual bunkering scheme.
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOBOX1=cooper&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=%2Fp268001uw
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Tom,
I had no idea you were Rastah, Mon.
Awesome. You got me singing. Very impressive!!! ;D
btw...not to correct you again, but that was from "West Side Story", not "Sound of Music". ;)
West Side Story rocks....Sound of Music blows.
Wanna do "When You're a Jet" with me?
p.s. I always thought Cooper River looked cool from the air photos too. Wish it had survived.
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Tom,
I had no idea you were Rastah, Mon.
Awesome. You got me singing. Very impressive!!! ;D
btw...not to correct you again, but that was from "West Side Story", not "Sound of Music". ;)
West Side Story rocks....Sound of Music blows.
Wanna do "When You're a Jet" with me?
p.s. I always thought Cooper River looked cool from the air photos too. Wish it had survived.
Its no coincidence I'm not phased by the negativity emanating from the heathens and sodomites.
I'll take a rain check on your offer, and I'll take your word for it on the show tunes.
-
I've removed Kelsey City and added Cascades in Jackson, Mi and Franconia Park in Springfield, Mass.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Franconia Park (1929) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Springfield, Ma)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Cascades (1929) - T.Bendelow (Jackson, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Cooper River (1929) - D.Emmet & A.Tull (Camden, NJ)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
-
Metropolitan Park in Cleveland is out and Idaho Falls Muni is in.
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Idaho Falls Muni (1934) - W.Tucker & F.James (Idaho Falls, Id)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Franconia Park (1929) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Springfield, Ma)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Cascades (1929) - T.Bendelow (Jackson, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
Cooper River (1929) - D.Emmet & A.Tull (Camden, NJ)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924) (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
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First 25
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Cooper River (1929) - D.Emmet & A.Tull (Camden, NJ)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
Second 25
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Franconia Park (1929) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Springfield, Ma)
Cascades (1929) - T.Bendelow (Jackson, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Third 25
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Idaho Falls Muni (1934) - W.Tucker & F.James (Idaho Falls, Id)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924) – J.Bredemus (Dallas, TX)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
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Maybe this list from the USGA Green Section Record is relevant to your discussion. I stumbled across it by accident.
http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1922/2209271.pdf
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Tom,
Nobody will ever claim again that you lack a sense of humor.
My hats off to you and thank you for the good chuckle! ;) ;D
Donal,
Thanks very much for sharing that article.
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I think I was quite generous with Cobbs Creek....the Third 25 was a serious consideration.
-
Tom,
I'm not talking about Cobbs Creek as much as the whole shebang! ;) ;D
Did you ever do any rating for Golf Digest? ;)
-
What course should I have included?
-
Tom,
It's fine. It's your list...rank 'em as you see 'em. :D
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August 5th, 1928:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5137/5388432385_fcedd0afe1_o.jpg)
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Nothing like the unbiased opinion of the guy who just won a tournament at Cobbs from unbiased local paper cited by an unbiased commentator like Mike Cirba.
But you claimed that it was a fact that Cobbs was the best and most difficult public course in the nation before Bethpage. That was and is an asinine statement. While you and Mr. Kaufman and the Philadelphia papers can think whatever you want, it is far from fact.
And Mike, you should quit holding this thread up as one where you were unfairly picked on. You deleted dozens of your own posts, many of which contained extremely nasty comments and insults. You make a worse martyr than you do an unbiased commentator on matters relating to Hugh Wilson and Philadelphia golf.
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Carl Kaufrmann won three US Public Links tournaments in a row between 1927 and 1929.
But I'm sure that David and Tom's opinion about how public golf courses were viewed in the 1920s from their 2011 vantage point is more personally informed and knowledgable one than Kauffmann's. Same with Norman Maxwell below, who only won the North and South Amateur but who was obviously also misnformed and probably biased.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5098/5390118754_af77555f3f_b.jpg)
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Mike
Speaking of trying to drive a thread into the gutter, I also recall you renaming this thread every other day. One of the more proactive attempts to ruin a thread in recent memory.
First 25
Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting (San Francisco, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie (Pacifica, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn (Miami, Fl)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman (Glenview, Il)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell (Indianapolis, In)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates (St. Paul, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray (Biloxi, Ms)
Cooper River (1929) - D.Emmet & A.Tull (Camden, NJ)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast (Farmingdale, NY)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Greensboro, NC)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross (Youngstown, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan (Portland, Or)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy (Hershey, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast (Jamestown, RI)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan (Spokane, Wa)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford (Green Lake, Wi)
Second 25
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell (Los Angeles, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn (Lakeland, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh (Lemont, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson (Des Moines, Ia)
Franconia Park (1929) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek (Springfield, Ma)
Cascades (1929) - T.Bendelow (Jackson, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark (Minneapolis, Mn)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast (Kansas City, Mo)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones (Syracuse, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek (Bronx, NY)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber (Canton, Oh)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler (Hermitage, Pa)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross (Providence, RI)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke (Dallas, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen (Milwaukee, Wi)
Third 25
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie (Sacramento, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell (Pasadena, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr (Montebello, Ca)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross (Savannah, Ga)
Idaho Falls Muni (1934) - W.Tucker & F.James (Idaho Falls, Id)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow (Palos Park, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie (W.Chicago, Il)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell (LaPorte, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles (Portland, Me)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross (Detroit, Mi)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis (Minneapolis, Mn)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis (St. Louis, Mo)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek (Staten Island, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare (Dayton, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves (Cleveland, Oh)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn (Allison Park, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924) – J.Bredemus (Dallas, TX)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast (San Antonio, Tx)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James (Seattle, Wa)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris (Janesville, Wi)
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(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5137/5388432385_fcedd0afe1_o.jpg)
Tom,
Don't worry...be happy. ;D
And with that, I'll leave it up to you and David Moriarty to make up your own modern versions of history on the fly. I'm sure with your respective talents you'll rewrite the books and turn the golf world on its head!
Enjoy!!
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Mike
You should have taken your own advice while this thread was chugging along. Do you remember some of these gems:
Re: ,
Re: Parasitic Symbiosis, or Live, From the Circle J Ranch
Re: Puzzling Public Course Confusion, Clutter, and Obfuscation
Re: A list of important public and resort community courses to 1936 by Tom MacWood
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
You were wound tighter than a two dollar watch. You need get your mind in the right place by listening to a little of Rockmovya.
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Tom,
Thanks for reminding me...even today I struggle to decide which of those titles is most apt! ;)
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Tom:
In Minneapolis I would list Gross ahead of Meadowbrook by a pretty large margin.
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Tom:
In Minneapolis I would list Gross ahead of Meadowbrook by a pretty large margin.
Gross is listed ahead of Meadowbrook. Gross was called Armour Park in 1936.
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Tom:
In Minneapolis I would list Gross ahead of Meadowbrook by a pretty large margin.
Gross is listed ahead of Meadowbrook. Gross was called Armour Park in 1936.
Thanks!