Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on February 12, 2010, 06:18:35 PM
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The advertisements for The Masters got me thinking about the 13th hole.
In particular, the fairway in the extended DZ on # 13.
Unfortunately, TV cameras seem to deprive the viewer of the true cross slope on that fairway.
The ball can be well above the golfer's feet, making the next shot extremely awkward.
Other fairways have significant cross slopes.
# 2, # 3, # 8, # 9, # 10, # 11, # 14 and # 18.
Hence, it's a redundant feature, but, repetition doesn't detract from the play of the course.
I doubt that those fairways would retain their slopes if the golf course was designed and built today.
The question is, on courses built today, what's an acceptable cross slope ?
And, how many would be acceptable ?
Part II,
In light of the steep slope on # 13, would a modern day course incorporate a water hazard fronting the green, or, would this be deemed unfair ?
Put another way, is quirk a feature of the past ?
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There are parts of a couple fairways at Wintonbury Hills that are pretty tilted. Holes 1, 4, 5, 13, 14, and 15 will make for some tricky lies. Still though, no fairway I've seen beats the 7th at the Cascades for tilt. I don't think it's possible to have a fairway slant more than that and still permit a ball to stop in the fairway.
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Pat, As with most generalities there are exceptions. Your assumption that they would not be built today is inaccurate. If you'd like to make a trip, out here to the middle, I will show you a couple of courses with amazing cants. Both built within the last 6 years.
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Tim,
Certainly the angle of attack into the extended DZ is a factor when canted fairways are present.
Adam,
I'm content to stick with my generality, based on a reasonable amount of playing experience.
I've yet to encounter many fairways with the pitch/slope of that on # 13 at ANGC.
And, I've never encountered a fairway with the pitch/slope found on # 13, with the ensuing presentation for the second shot into the green.
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How about the slope on #17 at OC Lake course? #18 at Riviera?
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Patrick:
I will share with you the story of the first time (and only time) I read Mike Hurdzan's encyclopedic book on golf course design.
There was one chapter devoted to routing the golf course, using a case study of a Hurdzan course in Kansas, and describing a step-by-step approach. The first few steps, it sounded like he did it exactly the same way I did ... his first hole was a par-4 playing out along a ridge, with a pretty good cross-slope to it.
Then I got to step 7 or 8, and it said something like this:
"Since the maximum permissible cross-slope in a fairway is 4 per cent, the computer re-graded the fairway landing area." And because the cross-slope started way out to the right of the hole, he wound up making a 15-foot cut and fill, on a hole which I was thinking you could leave alone!
Now, I'm sure Jeff Brauer will come on here shortly and tell you that because people mow fairways tighter nowadays, you just can't have significant tilts in fairways. I am not sure if he and Dr. Hurdzan have ever been to Augusta or Merion or not; I'm only sure that Jeff has been to Crystal Downs, because he played it with me. But apparently they do not believe their eyes when they play these courses. Or perhaps they just think they are not going to make silly mistakes like the 13th at Augusta.
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Merion 12
Lancaster 2
Stonewall 4
All have really significant cants that make short approaches far more difficult than they would be otherwise. They also really place tremendous pressure on the tee shot because the effective fairway widths, especially at Lancaster and Stonewall, are so narrow in the landing areas.
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Rory, I recall a very acceptable cant on the inside of the dogleg on #5 at Lancaster- I thought it helped our tee balls run out a bit towards the green- great second shot from the hilltop. As an aside , looks like you guys have had a Winter to forget . :(
Wish you well, Jack
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George Freeman's awesome photo tour of this bad ass (and modern) place looks to have it going on ...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40452.msg850816/
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Jack
I like to complain about the weather but not to anyone from Chicago!
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George Freeman's awesome photo tour of this bad ass (and modern) place looks to have it going on ...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40452.msg850816/
Mike's "level" and/or "computer program" must have been broken when he designed Greywalls.
That looks like a ton of fun - great link Eric.
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How about the slope on #17 at OC Lake course? #18 at Riviera?
David, Neither compare to the slope on # 13 at ANGC
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What is the cant on the 18th hole at Cherry Hills?
Haven't there been US Opens when no tee shot could hold the fairway ... they just kept rolling until they hit the rough?
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What is the cant on the 18th hole at Cherry Hills?
Haven't there been US Opens when no tee shot could hold the fairway ... they just kept rolling until they hit the rough?
That typically depends on ball flight.
A hook or draw, especially low, is going to run left into the rough.
It's doubtful that a straight or faded/sliced ball will leave the fairway when not hit to the edge.
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Still though, no fairway I've seen beats the 7th at the Cascades for tilt. I don't think it's possible to have a fairway slant more than that and still permit a ball to stop in the fairway.
I watched three consecutive tee shots (including mine) land in the left rough, only to end up in the right rough, on the seventh hole a few years ago. Under dry conditions, I'm not sure it's possible to hold the fairway without hitting a massive draw up the hill.
WW
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Tom Doak,
What percent would you say the 1st fairway at Belvedere is?
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Lookout Mountain comes to mind.
Anthony
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Only the perpetually soggy condition of the fairways at Olympic Lakeside makes their canted fairways playable!
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How about the cant on #3 at Oakmont? Or do only the pros drive it that far? I only know of it from Tiger Woods 2010 ;D
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Bill McBride & Wwhitehead,
Are those ball in the rough a function of the cant in the fairway or narrowed fairways.
Think back to pre-irrigation golf.
Anyone who played Alpine prior to fairway irrigation knows that placing your tee shot was a critical element in playing the golf course.
You had to hit toward the high side rough in order to keep the ball in the fairway, but, you knew that unless observation and experience aren't your strong suits.
Have narrowed fairway widths influenced the degree of fairway slope in the DZ ?
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Only the perpetually soggy condition of the fairways at Olympic Lakeside makes their canted fairways playable!
Bill, that isn't the case (Jan-Feb excluded), and hasn't been the case for several years.
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Patrick: Are you making the assumption that the second shot at #13 is going to be an attempt to reach the green - is it not a par 5 - is it not a relatively short par 5 - would the shot be too easy for the top players if the lie was flat?
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Patrick: Are you making the assumption that the second shot at #13 is going to be an attempt to reach the green - is it not a par 5 - is it not a relatively short par 5 - would the shot be too easy for the top players if the lie was flat?
Jerry, The top players play two to four competitive rounds a year on ANGC, the members and guests play the balance of the season.
Looking at # 13 in the sole context of the PGA Tour golfer is a MAJOR mistake.
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the olympic club... ;D
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Pat: So the cant to the fairway on #13 for most players is a challenge but not that imposing since they are playing a layup. I haven't had the privilege of playing ANGC but am I wrong in assuming that nearly all of those playing from the member tees are laying up for their second shot at #13?
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What is the cant on the 18th hole at Cherry Hills?
Haven't there been US Opens when no tee shot could hold the fairway ... they just kept rolling until they hit the rough?
Carl,
From lake level to the far right hand side of the fairway, there can't be more that 20 feet of elevation change. Over a 135 foot wide fairway (probably the widest on the course, probably due to the elevation change) that would mean around a 15% slope. I think that the diagonal nature of the shot though decreases the severity of the slope though, with a perpendicular line to the tee, as opposed a perpendicular line to the mowing.
Two other par 5s on the course have some right to left slope in the fairways, #5 & #11, but not as sharp as #18. I've no clue abot the balls rolling through the fairways there, though.
I guess Flynn really was pretty confident in designing a hole with a strong cant in the fairway, with Lancaster, Cherry Hills, and Cascades already mentioned, and my first thoughts going towards Huntingdon Valley's 1st, 7th, and 10th holes.
Looking at an older map of Augusta this summer, I think that the % slope on that hole was around 15% too.
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Only the perpetually soggy condition of the fairways at Olympic Lakeside makes their canted fairways playable!
Bill, that isn't the case (Jan-Feb excluded), and hasn't been the case for several years.
True, but you still couldn't call it fast and firm, could you? Seems to me that balls hit to the center of the fourth fairway might run a long way off the fairway if that grass was links-tight.
"Perpetually soggy" should perhaps be replaced by "lush." ;)
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Tim,
Certainly the angle of attack into the extended DZ is a factor when canted fairways are present.
Adam,
I'm content to stick with my generality, based on a reasonable amount of playing experience.
I've yet to encounter many fairways with the pitch/slope of that on # 13 at ANGC.
And, I've never encountered a fairway with the pitch/slope found on # 13, with the ensuing presentation for the second shot into the green.
You got no idea of the cant on that hole until you play it left handed ;D ;D....you either pull it to 14 tee or cut the hell out of it....
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Bill McBride & Wwhitehead,
Are those ball in the rough a function of the cant in the fairway or narrowed fairways.
Think back to pre-irrigation golf.
Anyone who played Alpine prior to fairway irrigation knows that placing your tee shot was a critical element in playing the golf course.
You had to hit toward the high side rough in order to keep the ball in the fairway, but, you knew that unless observation and experience aren't your strong suits.
Have narrowed fairway widths influenced the degree of fairway slope in the DZ ?
Examples at Olympic - which I have only played once - are #4 and #17. I would estimate each fairway was 40-45 yards wide, so I think it's more a function of cant than lack of width.
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Acceptable?
As in "I can hit this fairway, I can hit this fairway, I can hit this fairway....oops...guess I can't hit this fairway"? ;)
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I guess Flynn really was pretty confident in designing a hole with a strong cant in the fairway, with Lancaster, Cherry Hills, and Cascades already mentioned, and my first thoughts going towards Huntingdon Valley's 1st, 7th, and 10th holes.
Those front nine holes at Huntingdon Valley are so steep I thought they were designed by Richard Petty.
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Tom,
With the new technology out there....do you think Richard Petty would be designing his tracks with more cant than Fireball Roberts? Or do you think it would be a much better test to leave it as it was...now that we have better tires, even with faster speeds? I certainly would require a better driver....or maybe they should go back to the old tires ;) ;)
I say leave it as it was and use the new safety equipment...
AND totally OT....I would wager that the luge course is reworked before the olympics begins.....tragic and sad but at the same time amazing that the post were so close... :(
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True, but you still couldn't call it fast and firm, could you? Seems to me that balls hit to the center of the fourth fairway might run a long way off the fairway if that grass was links-tight.
"Perpetually soggy" should perhaps be replaced by "lush." ;)
Not links tight, but generally firmer and faster than another course near by...one that gets a lot less play. So that gives some perspective. I don't know when you last played out there, but a lot of work has gone into fairway conditions over the last several years (helped in large part by the tree mgmt).
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Pat: So the cant to the fairway on #13 for most players is a challenge but not that imposing since they are playing a layup.
I wouldn't say that since the layup area is no picnic to hit.
Most golfers aren't driving it where the PGA Tour players drive it, and the differential on that hole between Member's and Masters tees isn't that great.
Most golfers wont position their drive to the steeply sloped section of the fairway, but, their second shots can come to rest in those areas.
With your feet above you and a steeply sloping high right to low left landing zone with a creek at its foot as your target area on your lay up, it's no easy shot, and it can leave the golfer with a very, very difficult third shot into the green, which slopes in the opposite direction, with a creek bordering the entire right side of the green.
I haven't had the privilege of playing ANGC but am I wrong in assuming that nearly all of those playing from the member tees are laying up for their second shot at #13?
See my response above.
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"Tom,
With the new technology out there....do you think Richard Petty would be designing his tracks with more cant than Fireball Roberts?"
MikeyY:
Speaking of----tomorrow is the Daytona 500!! ;)
Fireball was one of the early ones who perfected the draft, slingshotting etc and back then the tire technology sure wasn't up to snuff with those big air-gulping 8s. Either was the safety technology. They did have fireproof suits and such towards the end of Fireball's career but he once told me he would never wear one because they gave him a rash.
I would love to see that big, lanky old greaseball back in there tomorrow putting a 12 inch 220mph draft on Danica Patrick's ass!! ;)
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True, but you still couldn't call it fast and firm, could you? Seems to me that balls hit to the center of the fourth fairway might run a long way off the fairway if that grass was links-tight.
"Perpetually soggy" should perhaps be replaced by "lush." ;)
Not links tight, but generally firmer and faster than another course near by...one that gets a lot less play. So that gives some perspective. I don't know when you last played out there, but a lot of work has gone into fairway conditions over the last several years (helped in large part by the tree mgmt).
The only time I ever played was in December 2006 (?) with you and Benham and Pieracci, thanks again for a great day.
I'm just thinking if that 4th fairway, for example, was firmer you'd be playing every second shot from 40 yards farther away.
It was reasonably dry when we played, "soggy" was a misstatement.