Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bryan Izatt on January 19, 2010, 07:11:10 PM
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We kicked off the new year in style with two rounds at Barnbougle Dunes. My one fear going in was that, having traveled half way around the world, I would be let down by the experience.
From Canada, Tasmania looks to be off the edge of the known world, so I had anticipated that it would be isolated and rustic. Turns out to be quite accessible from Sydney or Melbourne. Arguably easier to get to than, say, Bandon Dunes, and, not really rustic at all. Arriving at BD is certainly low key. The entrance wasn't on my GPS and the signage on the road is minimal. On the entrance road, you're left wondering where the dunes are, as it is on a dead flat cattle grazing plain. Flat enough that there is a grass runway that runs parallel to the second hole. Approaching the club house and cottages, the dunes become apparent. The cottages are simple and spartan, but each provides a patio with a view toward the first tee, the 9th green, and the clubhouse and, further to the right, across the heli-paddock (oops, or maybe that's the driving range too) to the 10th fairway.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02653.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02654.jpg)
In the shop they give you a scorecard, appropriately simple and spartan, that is specific to the tees you are playing. Based on handicap, they suggested either the back tees (6148 meters par 71) or a mix of the back tees and the next up depending on whether you were playing up-wind or down-wind. Normally, the tips at almost 6800 yards on a par 71, would be too long for me, but given firm and fast conditions I thought I'd give it a whirl. Unfortunately the wind was fresh in both my rounds, probably averaging 30 knots, and the holes were either downwind or upwind, very little cross-wind. I have no idea if this was the prevailing wind or speed, but it was daunting. The up-wind holes were killers, despite some of them being short 4's or 3's.
Now, onto the course. First thing I noticed was that the tees hadn't been cut in some time. The grass was long and wispy, reaching up to at least the bottom of a teed up ball. Don't think it affected play, but just looked odd. I've never seen anything like it anywhere else. The other feature of th etees that stood out is that they are ill-defined and not necessarily flat, nether of which is a bad thing.
The first hole is a 506 meter (560 yard) par 5 playing into the wind, at least on my two rounds. It is a long slog into the wind. The hole bends a bit to the right (in fact it seemed to me that there were a preponderance of left to right holes on the course. If I were doing a Doak rating on the course, I think that the first and second holes might tempt me to rank it a nine rather than a ten. They are on pretty flat ground with the greens adding the primary interest and challenge to the holes. Apart from the green complex, the first hole seemed a little mundane, but the flat ground needed to be utilized to route the course, I guess.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-1.jpg)
The tee shot is routed in a gap between two dunes that make the hole appear narrow, but the fairway is very generous, as are almost all the fairways on the course.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02655.jpg)
The second shot faces a wide crossing bunker on the right side of the fairway, presumably protecting the preferred right hand approach to the green. Or is it just placed there to lure you to that side? In any event, from those tees, and into the wind, it wasn't really in play for me on the second shot.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02656.jpg).
Sadly, I didn't have the time to get really good pictures of most of the greens, but the first green certainly provides a good introduction, with lots of internal movement. It is relatively mild compared to many of the other greens. Getting a third shot pitch or chip close to the pin locations is difficult without a lot of local knowledge. These greens probably pretty well define defending par at the green.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02657.jpg)
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Wow, that looks like my type of pin position in that saddle/bowl!
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If you're coming in from the safer left side of the fairway, there are a lot of angles to consider on the green to get it close. It sure doesn't gather to that pin.
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Ha - If you are a fan of flat greens you just got a wake up call on the first hole (and you clearly teed it on the wrong course) - that looks like the roof of the saddle dome in Calgary.
What is the effective area of the green and how many pin positions would be available?
It looks like the left side is not pinable?
Fun stuff indeed.
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Love theses threads!!
Anthony
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Rob,
Two plays was not enough for me to be able to answer your question. Perhaps others more familiar with the course could. I'd observe that the greens are not maintained super fast, so there are no doubt more pinnable places than there would be on greens stimping over 10. In my recollection, I didn't see any greens that looked like there was any lack of pinnable locations.
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Can we just fast forward to the pictures you took looking over at Lost Farm, please? LOL!!!
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Ha - If you are a fan of flat greens you just got a wake up call on the first hole (and you clearly teed it on the wrong course) - that looks like the roof of the saddle dome in Calgary.
What is the effective area of the green and how many pin positions would be available?
It looks like the left side is not pinable?
Fun stuff indeed.
Rob,
Its a really good and fun first green, I reckon there'd be about 3-4 different pin positions ?
During 8 plays in 3 days, the pin was actually placed front left / left everytime I played. It's a tricky pin position, one where its crucial to place your second shot near or over fairway bunker on the right hand side.
The first is one of the best opening holes I've ever seen. Wide fairway, strategic decisions on every shot, a great green site, great aesthetics... like every hole at Barnbougle basically.
Seriously I never saw a course that I thought was clearly superior to every other course I've played until I played Barnbougle. It's in its own "tier" in my book.
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Hole #2 Par 4 381 meters (420 yards)
The hole is essentially straight with the defining features being the length (especially into the wind), pinched landing area for the drive, and a raised, bunkerless green.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-2.jpg)
The back tee is a little bit of a walk back from the 1st green and partly up on a dune. It felt to me like you needed to fade the tee shot although a straight drive along the right would work just as well. The dunes on the right covered in sea grasses that would mostly result in a lost ball are intimidating, although really not that much in play. And, that darned bunker sitting out there on the left. Is it an alignment target, or to save you from going into t he deep hay on that side, or an indication that the left is the preferred side for approaching the green?
As you can see in the picture, the forward tees are a bit up the dunes on the right and provide the same perspective as the back tees. Kudos to Tom for placing forward tees that are just not afterthoughts.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02658.jpg)
Into the wind, a good drive gets you out near the one fairway bunker on the left. I would guess that that is the preferred side to set up the approach shot to the angled green. Into the stiff breeze, a run up shot seems most likely called for, but the raised front of the green provides challenges for the running shot. I hit a pretty good driver off the fairway, but couldn't get it all the way there and up the ridge. Like all the greens, being close to the green is no guarantee that you can get the ball close to pin on the chip shot. Like most, if not all the greens at BD there are closely mown runoff areas around the greens that provide plenty of opportunities for creative recoveries.
Of course, the indigenous wildlife can also be a little distracting.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02659.jpg)
And, here, courtesy of David, a closer view of the contours of the green.
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web_2.jpg)
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Patience, Michael. I have one more Lost Farm picture when I get to the 16th hole. But, don't wish away BD. As Emil says it's at the pinnacle of great courses. I'd be very surprised if Lost Farm turns out to be substantially or even marginally better.
Emil,
That's some praise for number 1. I thought it was a good par 5 opener, but probably the weakest hole on the course. Not to say it's bad or even mediocre, but it just pales to the other 17.
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Thanks Brian for doing this thread. I'm highly anticipating the rest of the holes. :)
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Bryan,
I think No. 2 is the least interesting hole on the course, and not surprisingly, it resides on the least compelling land at Barnbougle Dunes. I'm not sure whether the bunker complex on the left hand side of the fairway was constructed to provide some balance to the hole, but it seems a more natural location for them would have been cut into the dunes along the right side.
TK
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Patience, Michael. I have one more Lost Farm picture when I get to the 16th hole. But, don't wish away BD.
Oh I'm not "wishing away" or discounting the first Barnbougle course...
It's analogous to the Tiger/Elin drama.... ;-)
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Tyler,
I agree that 2 is one of the less compelling holes on the course. Indeed, I was starting to wonder a little bit at that point about what all the fuss was about. But, I did enjoy trying to run the second shot up onto the green (unsuccessfully), but did manage to pull a par out. The trap, I think, is probably placed where the drive should be to open up the green to run in a second shot. But, Tom or Mike could probably give a better view on what the intent was. A trap on the right in the dunes would have been overkill in my view. The long grass over there is hazard enough, as it is everywhere else on the course.
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Bryan:
Quick question -- first great photos & commentary -- look forward to the rest.
Can you tell me among ALL the courses you have ever played -- where specifically would you place BD. Is it ahead of Pac Dunes inyour mind? I'm assuming you have played the OR gem.
Thanks ...
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Matt,
I'm not a big fan of ranking in a numerical sense of this course is three places ahead of or 2 points better than that course. I'd put Barnbougle in my top tier of courses played - probably even in my top ten. I liked it a lot. Admittedly, I have a weakness for links courses.
I liked Pacific Dunes a lot too. It's in my top tier as well. I'd say that Barnbougle is a better site. More dunesy. But, I don't want to split hairs and say that one is 2 points better than the other. There are a lot of similarities between the two, both architecture-wise and in the location and facilities. BD is like Bandon used to be from a feeling of place point of view. And, the price is certainly better than Bandon. Which makes me sad about Bandon.
Anyhow, given the opportunity, I go back to either in an instant.
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Planning a trip to Barnbougle Dunes this year, very excited to see your pics! l would love to wait for Lost Farm, it looks like the timing will only permit me to see one course though. Should be an incredible duo.
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Bryan,
I think No. 2 is the least interesting hole on the course, and not surprisingly, it resides on the least compelling land at Barnbougle Dunes. I'm not sure whether the bunker complex on the left hand side of the fairway was constructed to provide some balance to the hole, but it seems a more natural location for them would have been cut into the dunes along the right side.
TK
Tyler:
It wouldn't have made any sense to have bunkers on the right of the fairway and a wide-open field to the left of them. The bunkers are there to guard the left-center of the fairway which gives you a direct line into the green. Most people cannot clear the bunkers off the tee when the hole is playing into the prevailing wind, so they have to play between the bunkers and the dune on the right.
I am sure the hole seems plain compared to what follows, but it is built in the same style of minimal disturbance. And it's a reasonably difficult hole, thanks to the wind and the green complex; I'd wager that in a competition the scoring average on #2 would be one of the highest on the front nine.
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Bryan:
You said "probably" top ten. Hate to pin you down -- but can you be a bit more definitive. Is that yes or no?
What others would you include in your top ten ?
Tom D:
The wind pattern Bryan alluded to -- is that the prevaling headwind you get when playing the first two holes during their summer season ? was that part of your design efforts to include such a situation with that in mind?
do cross wind patterns routinely happen there -- or is it more headwind / downwind elements? should the wind flip from what Bryan experienced does the design account for that and is it equal to what it is when the prevailing blows?
thanks ...
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I am sure we discussed the 2nd hole in a thread a couple of years ago .
At the risk of repeating myself , the 2nd stands up well and becomes more appreciated the more you play it . Mike Keiser labelled it "an architects hole" because it was built predominantly outside the wonderful dune land , and brings you back into the dunes , allowing the rest of the routing to work .
I walked the front nine with Bill Coore when he first arrived at Barnbougle and he was particularly impressed with the routing of holes 3 to 7 - none of which could have happened without the link 2 provides .
There were perhaps other routing options which may have provided holes more in the dunes for 2 , but perhaps then compromised what was to follow .
And the green at 2 is just great fun , and one of my favourites....
There used to be a big old pine tree framing the left side of the hole , but in his wisdom the landowner decided that his new runway would be better served without trees in the vicinity...
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Matt
Yes the north westerly is the prevailing wind through the summer months - in your face for holes 1 , 2, 3 , 4 , 7 ,12 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18
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Matt,
I'm sure you don't hate to pin me down. OK, make that a definite, it's in my top ten (now I have to figure out what else is in my top ten ;D). As a sampler, I'd put it up with Pacific Dunes, Royal Dornoch, TOC, North Berwick, Ocean course at Kiawah, Sawgrass, Highland Links, Teeth of the Dog ........ Not to divert the discussion, but, I preferred Barnbougle to Pebble, partly due to cost and partly due to the golf course land. Barnbougle is far superior land and way less expensive..
Peter,
Since you seem familiar with the wind there, can you just confirm for me that 30 - 35 knot winds are not the norm. If they are the norm then the strategies for the short 4's into the wind, such as 4 and 12, seem to me to be compromised.
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Bryan:
Many thanks -- love definitive answers. ;D
Likely you will get to this in time -- best hole, least impressive hole, most underrated, how different does the course play from different tee boxes - i'm assuming you played different tee boxes when there.
Bryan & Peter:
Can long hitters challenge the green at the 4th -- it appears from the club's wesbite photo there is room -- is the tee area you play set at ground level or slightly elevated? Also, it looks to be about 260 yards to clear that right massive bunker -- would balls then feed to the green if executed that way ?
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Matt,
I played the tips the first time, and one up from there the second time. I didn't find a substantial difference based on the tees. The course/wind beat me up both times. The beating took place, for the most part, around and on the greens.
I'll deal with your questions about 4 when I get to that hole.
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Tom D:
The wind pattern Bryan alluded to -- is that the prevaling headwind you get when playing the first two holes during their summer season ? was that part of your design efforts to include such a situation with that in mind?
do cross wind patterns routinely happen there -- or is it more headwind / downwind elements? should the wind flip from what Bryan experienced does the design account for that and is it equal to what it is when the prevailing blows?
thanks ...
Matt:
As Peter Wood noted, the wind in your face on the first hole is the prevailing wind -- 75% to 85% of the time. The only other strong wind I've seen is 180 degrees opposite.
The strip of dunes is very narrow so there wasn't really any chance to build holes that would have been crosswind ... you'd have started or ended out of the dunes altogether.
The clubhouse pretty much had to be in the middle of the course because of the location of the access road. Bill Coore suggested that I should have started on the back nine (to save the most dramatic stretch for the back nine), but if we had done that, you would have played eight consecutive holes into the wind (15-18 followed by 1-4). I preferred to split them up to the start and end of the round. Most of the middle of the course does play downwind, but you turn back into the wind at 7 and again at 12.
Originally we had a more cross-wind hole laid out for #7 but the green site seemed much too severe for a severe crosswind shot. So we started looking around for an alternate solution and found our Little Devil #7 instead.
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I find the 2nd green to be one of the most difficult on the course as far as actually getting your ball near the hole.
There are others that are more severe with large slopes and undulations, but #2 has little slopes and bumps in very difficult spots, thus making putting very very difficult if you hit it to the wrong part of the green. Holes like 5 and 13 have wild undulations that are more obvious and actually feed the ball to the hole in some instances. On #2 most of the little bumps do a great job at directing your ball away from the hole!
If the pin is at the back left and you just roll one onto the front edge of the green, particularly the left side, then all I can say is 'good luck!'
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I guess I didn't mind the 1st and 2nd holes as much as other folks. In fact, I really enjoyed the minimalist approach that Tom alluded to on the holes and the way strategy was introduced through minimal bunkering and a concentration on interesting greensites and the contours of the greens and surrounds.
The "on ramp" that one is rewarded with on the left side of the approach to the 2nd green was a great reward when playing close to the cluster of bunkers on the left side of the fairway. Certainly beats playing over the sharp drop on the right. And the 1st fairway is definitely not flat, just a different type of contour than is seen on some of the more dramatic holes, which provides an uneven stance for someone looking to skirt past the bunker on the right side of the second landing area. Two really good holes that, in my mind, don't detract at all from the rest of the golf.
Matt,
Barnbougle Dunes fits comfortably within the top ten golf courses I've ever played as well. Very few other courses combine interesting greens, great strategy, and a rugged feeling like the way Barnbougle Dunes does.
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Tom,
Do you think that the 180 degree wind could be just as, if not more, fun to play in? I had that on one of my three rounds there. With 1, 3, 4, 12, and 15 now reachable, 11 and 14 playing as true three shot holes, and a much more benign finish on 15-18 do you think that makes sense?
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Duncan and Peter,
Thanks for the comments. For clarity, I wasn't criticizing the first two holes. They are indeed good holes, but they are not as great as the remaining holes. And, I found all of the greens dificult to get the ball to the hole, whether chipping or putting. After a while I stopped counting how many three putts I had. But, they were fun three putts. ;D
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Bryan, I'd agree that the 2nd is not the strongest hole there. There are 18 holes there that are great fun and all good to great holes, but there has to be a 'least favourite' and #2 is a candidate for this.
There is most certainly an advantage in taking on the fairway bunkers, I'm not a long hitter and find to my great advantage that I could just hit driver straight at the bunkers safe in the knowledge that 99% of the time I would pull up short. Thus giving me the best line into that green.
Having said that, I would consider the hole pretty 'boring' if it weren't for that wonderful green. I'd have #8 and probably #14 as my 'least favourite' holes, which isn't to say they aren't any good. #2 for me moves up from being least favourite, simply because the green is so cool and it warms you up nicely for the fun of the holes that follow!
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Very much looking forward to this tour. Keep up the good work.
It's wetting my appetite considering I should be playing there in 4 months. :)
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Hole #3 Par 4 339 Meters (375 Yards)
As you walk up the path into the dunes from the second green you realize that the nature of the course is about to change. The hole on the guide map appears to be a right bender. In fact, I count 9 holes that bend to the right off the tee and only, arguably, 3 that go left. From the aerial below, you can see a pronounced spine down the middle of the fairway, and indeed there are two levels (with lots of internal movement), the left lower and the right higher.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-3.jpg)
The wind is still in your face as you stand on the tee. From the tee, the visual aspect creates all kinds on questions. Is the bunker dead ahead a good line? Is it reachable? How much of the dune line on the right should I bite off? Is the long grass as dead a place to be as it looks? Picking a line and committing to it is essential. Losing it right is bad, bad, bad. I hit it on a line over the mound just right of the far trap and just barely made the fairway and was on the upper right tier.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02661.jpg)
Looking at the second shot, it seems apparent that the right side provides a better approach to the green than the left. The target is narrow at the front of the green and broadens to the back. The mid-line trap about 40 yards short of the green provides some depth perception issues.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02662.jpg)
From closer in you can see that the front pin position is very tight and sloped right to left. From painful experience I can tell you that short of the right green side bunker on the down slope provides an impossible shot for us amateurs. I flopped it perfectly, landing at the pin and watched it run off to the very back left corner. Be careful where you miss.
Apart from the small false front, the rest of the green runs away to the back, if I recall correctly. Another hole where it's hard to get it close, but a green with less internal movement. A tough hole for a medium length par 4.
As you can see just short of the right hand green bunker, there are areas of the course where there are pure sand environments where it appears there is some difficulty maintaining grass. The growing environment must be tough with the wind. There was, on occasion, sand blowing out of bunkers.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02663.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web_3.jpg)
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Bryan
Barnbougle is no different to most links course in that it is exposed to the vagaries of the weather , and the north westerly in particular .
The course is relatively protected from southerly weather .
At times it can really blow..
The wind usually starts coming in mid August and is more frequent over the months following - gradually abating so that by April May June , the days are mild and less likely to have strong winds
Having said that over last 6 years I have probably played the course in excess of 100 times , and perhaps had 4 or 5 days where the wind was beyond an interesting challenge
Does it compromise the strategies on 4 and 12?
Not at all in my opinion - these holes require a lot of decision making beyond driving the green or laying up - let's talk about them more when you get to them
In the meantime the 3rd hole is a beauty , let's hear more on that
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Matt
Yes the 4th and the 12th are drivable in the right conditions by many of the longer hitters
My son is a tour pro and he hits it ( the 4th ) quite easily in most conditions but I have mates who give a rip and get there
Unfortunately I am a good 20 metres short of being able to make the carry...
Let's talk about it when Bryan gets to 4..
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Bryan,
In the photo the front bunker looks fairly tight to the green - does it feel that way in person?
I really enjoy seeing the architect use that concept of the "slight fore bunker" if done properly on a couple of holes during a round.
What a fun tee shot!
Is it possible to use the backboard to work it to that front pin position?
Very cool looking hole.
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An interesting aside to the third hole:
Originally, there was a sharp, 12-foot tall dune about forty yards short of the green on the right ... from about where the fore-bunker is now on toward the green a ways. [That's probably why they are having so much trouble growing grass in that spot ... very sandy subsoil.] If you drove it on the upper-right shelf of fairway, the green was invisible from there. We kept whittling away at it while building the hole, and eventually, after I left, Brian Schneider decided to take it out altogether.
Clearly, no one has missed it.
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Nice thread Bryan,
I will try and keep up from now but to back track a little, the more I play the course the more I like the first two holes. The second green in particular is super fun. It also has one of the coolest features I have seen (although I might wait until I get a good photo of it before describing it).
I would rate Barnbougle as the best course I have seen and whilst the first two holes are weaker than the first two at, say, St Andrews, they aren't horribly outclassed by the first two at, say, Pebble Beach or Merion or Royal Melbourne.
Here's a photo showing the really cool contours on the second (although it is perhaps the most "moundy" looking Doak work that I have seen).
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web_2.jpg)
And heres a photo of the third green. It took a while to work out just how much front to back slope there is in this green. A very hard green to hold on those days the hole plays down wind.
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web_3.jpg)
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I've never understood what people found lacking with the first two holes. In some ways they do a great job of building your anticipation rather than heading straight into the interior. Lost Farms uses the same technique to open the round. I think it makes the tee shot on the 3rd even more exciting as you finally move inside the dunes.
The third has got one of the very best greens on the golf course. The front pin is a beauty! There are so many wonderful pin positions and the transition into the dune on the right is magnificent. It was one of my favourite greens on the entire property.
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Ian,
The 2nd is a good golf hole, it just happens to occupy a relatively plain segment of the property, similar to the first half of the tenth hole. At first glance it doesn't conjure up the type of visual excitement found throughout the rest of the course, but that is not a bad thing, like you said. It could be akin to the slow climb up a roller coaster, it helps build anticipation for what follows. Like Tom mentioned earlier, the site is quite narrow, so that placed limitations on the routing of the golf course. Ultimately, you take what the land gives you, and avoiding this section of the site would have created a domino affect of change that would have been detrimental to the course as a whole, and we may never have experienced the numerous great holes on the front nine.
TK
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Bryan,
In the photo the front bunker looks fairly tight to the green - does it feel that way in person?
I really enjoy seeing the architect use that concept of the "slight fore bunker" if done properly on a couple of holes during a round.
What a fun tee shot!
Is it possible to use the backboard to work it to that front pin position?
Very cool looking hole.
If you're talking about the fore-bunker on #3, on first playing, I knew from the course map that it was not tight to the green. From the fairway in real life, the top lines make it look deceptively close to the green.
For those of us who are yard people and not meter people, I think the mixed messages of visual perception vs yardage/meterage compounds the difficulty of shot selection. The only yardage information is a 150 meter plaque. Now, on this hole if I was at the plaque my brain is reading 150 yards which is a 7 iron for me. I then have to mentally calculate that it's really 165 yards, so really a hard 6 iron. But then you've got a 2 or 3 club wind in your face, so I should really hit 3 or 4 iron, and knock it down. But, that fore-bunker looks so close, and here I am standing at the white plaque that's hard-wired in my brain as 150 yards. How the hell, can I commit to hitting a full 3 iron from 150 yards? :o Guess what the probability of success is to a narrow green target running away from you.
Re using a backboard on the green, I don't think there is one, as you can see more clearly in David's picture.
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... In some ways they do a great job of building your anticipation rather than heading straight into the interior. Lost Farms uses the same technique to open the round. I think it makes the tee shot on the 3rd even more exciting as you finally move inside the dunes.
Agreed. I think I really appreciate more and more a course where the first couple of holes don't kick your teeth in. It's nice to have a chance to work yourself into a round. Although, a par 5 into the wind to start things off?
And look at that 3rd fronting green bunker with the depth deception... Brilliant. A little MacKenzie rubbing off on Tom, Jim and the crew no doubt.
Bryan,
Great thread and I have it bookmarked now so I can refer back to it for next year's trip down there. Thanks for sharing.
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Tom,
Thanks for the aside. Keep them coming.
If the dune blocked the view from the right upper fairway, would that not have taken away some of the strategic advantage of keeping a drive on the upper right side? Given it was eradicated after you left, would you, looking at it now, like to see it restored in part or in full?
It's hard to miss things that you never knew about.
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... In some ways they do a great job of building your anticipation rather than heading straight into the interior. Lost Farms uses the same technique to open the round. I think it makes the tee shot on the 3rd even more exciting as you finally move inside the dunes.
Agreed. I think I really appreciate more and more a course where the first couple of holes don't kick your teeth in. It's nice to have a chance to work yourself into a round. Although, a par 5 into the wind to start things off?
And look at that 3rd fronting green bunker with the depth deception... Brilliant. A little MacKenzie rubbing off on Tom, Jim and the crew no doubt.
Bryan,
Great thread and I have it bookmarked now so I can refer back to it for next year's trip down there. Thanks for sharing.
Agreed. More holes more holes!!!
I think par 5 starters are great ways to ease players into rounds. More margin for error, but if the better player makes par or bogey, it tests them to keep their composure.
I know very little about Barnbougle, other than what I've seen from their website. This thread is great! ;D
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David,
Thanks for the comments and especially the pictures. The angles and lighting in them is super. I hope you don't mind, but I borrowed the links and added them to the hole description posts. Keep them coming in future holes. In retrospect, I did poorly on getting useful green shots.
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Ian,
Good points. I guess I wasn't trying to say the first two holes are lacking, per se. Rather, those of us who come from afar, come with great expectations. And what we're delivered on those two holes is subtlety and not drama. There is certainly enough drama on the rest of th ecourse, that a little subtlety starting off is not bad. I absolutely agree that those holes are best at the beginning of the round, and if I got to play them more often I'm sure my feelings for their subtleties would increase. Reminds in that respect, a bit of TOC.
You were there not long ago (I assume on your first visit). Did you play them first or walk them first? Do you remember your feelings about them when you first saw them? Of course, as an architect, perhaps your expectations are not as great as the rest of us, and your appreciation of the subtleties is more immediate.
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And now, on to #4.........
Hole #4 Par 4 271 meters (300 yards)
Walking up to the tee thoughts of birdie are dancing in our heads. A short par 4! Or is it even a drivable par 4!!
The course map and aerials give you a flat plan view of the layout of the hole.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-4.jpg)
In no way do the aerials prepare you for the three dimensional visual drama. Nothing like standing on the tee and muttering, Oh,,, Wow!!!
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02664.jpg)
Still into the wind. A real head scratcher off the tee. It's only 300 yards and there looks like there's room behind the first big bunker (having measured subsequently on Google Earth, the carry from the tips is around 250 to 260 yards). But that 2 or 3 club wind is right in your face. But, they've cut the long grass to the right of the bunker, so how bad can a miss there be. But if you don't make the carry that bunker looks like death.
So, where can I lay up? Looks like a lot of room out to the left behind the first ridge off the tee. But, that's way left and most of the green will be invisible. Maybe I can drive it straight at the far bunker, but hopefully come up short. Or maybe I'll just bunt it down in front of the first massive bunker. But, in either case I won't be able to see the green.
C'mon wind, lay down a bit, I really want to have a go at it. >:(
On the first day, for once, I opted for course management and tried a 3 iron stinger. My usual little draw was turned by the wind into a full fledged hook. Thank you Tom et al for putting that wide elbow out there on the left. The second day, I moved up one tee and said to hell with it, I'm going with driver. And, pulled it at the far bunker and rolled up nicely short of it.
What is evident from the aerial is tha a significant portion of the green runs to the left behind the dune ridge. The flag in the picture is far right. A right flag is partially visible from most places in the fairway. A left pin, is not visible from anywhere other than if you fly the bunker.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02666.jpg)
I'm not sure how to describe the green. Is it a deeply delicious dell? Or, maybe a fabulous flying fortress. In any event, if you don't fly the bunker, it's difficult to get the ball close to the pin that you can't really see much if any of.
I made par twice, so it's easy par on a 300 yard hole. Thoughts of birdie flew away on the breeze. I expect that if the wind laid down o 10 knots and you were playing the appropriate tee, then taking a run at the green would be doable for many. And a lot of those would suffer the consequences, but the fun is in the trying.
And, thanks to Andrew for a picture of part of the green. It shows the landing area if you take on the bunker and the options for getting to the front pin position. Getting to the back left pin position from there must be an interesting proposition.
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3917/img0333k.jpg)
And, another picture of the green courtesy of GOLFselect.com.au indicating how the slopes might gather the blind approach shot over the second bunker to a back left pin position.
(http://www.golfselect.com.au/armchair/images/wallpaper/normal/640/06w44.jpg)
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IMHO,
To put it short, the 4th is probably the best hole I've ever played (or seen). There is no hole (I've played) that gives so many options for every single type of player and pin positions. There is no hole (I've played) I could never ever tire of playing. No hole where it's so tempting to go over your limit (haven't seen 10 at RMW...). Few holes hat are so naturally beautiful. If golf gets better than this hole, tell me where
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What do you like more about it than the 3rd at RQ, Emil? (I have not play BD..yet :D) I wouldn't say 10 at RMW is tempting at all. I didn't even think about going for the green when I played there.
It's a beautiful looking course indeed, and the pictures that have been posted thus far have been wonderful. Great job Tom and Bryan. ;D
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Thanks for the thread. Nice to break down the "old girl" once again.
I've played around 45 rounds at Barnbougle. I;ve only seen it blow hard straight into the wind on the first few or 180 degrees to that. The cross wind tend to be a gentle breeze.
I can only really remember seeing the pin front left or almost dead centre most rounds on 1 so not sure how many more placements there are. Hole 2 grows on you - I think the green does it. When you play 99% of your golf on non links style courses that are over watered - the excitment of having the opportunity to bump and run or use the slope behind the hole to get it close awakens your creative game.
Hole 3 is where things really get exciting. Playing 3 to 7 is my favorite stretch of holes anywhere and in my limited playing experience only bettered by 3-6 Royal Melbourne West. 4 is a ripper - left off the tee is great for the right pin placement but my favorite is the left pin in behind that hill. I have never driven 4 green off the tee. I am sure I could get there with a decent tail wind but on those rare occassions I tend to still play for position. I have birdied this hole more than any other on the course but also rack up plenty of 5's through 3 putting after a poorly placed tee shot. 12th hole on the other hand I have driven it to the front edge in the right wind and I am not a big hitter (you can cut off 25yards going the direct line to the green if you dare). It still took my 3 to get up and down mind you :-(
I await the desription of the walk from 4 to 5 before talking about the 5th.
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What happens when you just fail to clear the bunker on 4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j3t9si6vyw
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Dave,
I love the finish to that vid when you politely inform Scotty 'nah, you just can't pick that up!'
I wonder if anyone has ever played this hole for the first time and despite not hitting their tee-shot in the bunker, decided not to drop one in there for a hit anyway?
I think the carry of that bunker is overstated, it's only 220m at best from an elevated tee. Depending on the pin, having a blind apporach after laup isn't such a bad thing, as there are many ways to get the ball to the hole.
Clearing that bunker is also no guarantee of getting on the green as I discovered, if you hit it high enough it will stop up on the shelf. This picture is where my tee shot finished and me having a go at the putt. (that ball near the pin isn't mine!)
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3917/img0333k.jpg)
This one below is the sort of blind approach you get when laying up short of the bunker.
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8991/img0331qb.jpg)
You also get a pretty good look at the 6th from the 3rd tee
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8224/p5180028.jpg)
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And look at that 3rd fronting green bunker with the depth deception... Brilliant. A little MacKenzie rubbing off on Tom, Jim and the crew no doubt.
Patrick:
You've got to keep your associates straight. Jim Urbina has never been to Australia; I built Barnbougle with Mike Clayton, Brian Schneider, Eric Iverson, and Mike's shaper Jason McCarthy, mostly. If you're going to share credit for the work you should at least get the names right.
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Can anyone tell me about the big tree on the right a short ways past #4 tee? By looking at the photos, it looks as if this tree might eliminate the slinger draw with a driver in an attempt to drive the green from the back tee.
I'm just curious because the aerial shot makes a slinger draw with the driver look pretty tasty by flying the bunker just to the right of it. But if that tree is in the way, and you have to hit a cut to reach the green, that's probably too far to hit a driver for almost anyone assuming that it's into the wind.
But with a 2-3 club wind in your face, it's obvious that laying up short left is the right play.
The hole looks awesome. :)
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Dieter,
Nice set-up for the walk to the 5th hole. It is now the background on my desktop. It will be revealed shortly.
Andrew,
Thanks for the pictures. I've taken the liberty of inserting the green shot into the hole description.
I measured the carry over the bunker as 230 - 235 meters, but I was allowing for some safety margin so that we wouldn't end up like David's friend in the video. :o
Emil,
I think you're gushing. ;D
Jonathan,
I don't recall the tree entering my thinking standing on the tee, but others more familiar with the course might have a different view. A slinging draw seems like the shot for taking on driving the green. Of course, into the wind it'd be easy to overcook it.
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As Dieter alluded to, the walk to the 5th tee is spectacular, especially for those of us from cold weather inland environments. So, without further delay here are a couple of pictures. And, just look at all that spectacular golfing dunes land beckoning in the east out towards where Lost Farm is and beyond.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02667.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02682.jpg)
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Gents:
With the proviso that I have not played the hole -- can someone explain to me why NOT going for the green at all times is not the better play?
There seems to be a natural feeder to the green if you can carry the right side. yes, I am aware of the wind dimension previously cited.
The wedge shot from the fairway looks to be much more demanding than I previously thought.
thanks ...
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Bryan.... I am. Just can't get over how much fun I had being frustrated by that hole!
Pup,
Driving the green is more tempting, but most importantly, there is something for every level of golfer at the 4th at BD. Let's take a 25 handicap, who drives the ball +/- 150 metres. At RQ, the line would be obvious for him. At BD, he can choose between the left and right sides of the fairway, depending on pin position. Then on his second shot, he has to ask himself wether to carry the big bunker, or play left of it....
Matt,
As the hole mostly plays into the wind, trying the carry is an extremely risky shot as the fairway narrows and bunkers come into play...
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One further point -- I am thoroughly aware that the carry involved may not be a suitable option for many players.
Emil:
Yes, but once you do carry the bunker -- the natural feed -- from the photos alone that I have seen -- seem to work the ball towards the target.
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Matt, that's true, but how big is the chance that you hit a 10x10 metre corridor from 240 metres into the wind
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Can anyone tell me about the big tree on the right a short ways past #4 tee? By looking at the photos, it looks as if this tree might eliminate the slinger draw with a driver in an attempt to drive the green from the back tee.
I'm just curious because the aerial shot makes a slinger draw with the driver look pretty tasty by flying the bunker just to the right of it. But if that tree is in the way, and you have to hit a cut to reach the green, that's probably too far to hit a driver for almost anyone assuming that it's into the wind.
The hole looks awesome. :)
Jonathan:
I left the tree because of the proximity of #5 tee. You would be aiming your "slinger draw" right at #5 tee and I know it doesn't always sling. But, you don't have to hit a cut off the tee ... you just can't hit a big hook.
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There is no risk of not making the carry if you are Matt Ward and his cheater driver....lol ;)
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Gents:
With the proviso that I have not played the hole -- can someone explain to me why NOT going for the green at all times is not the better play?
There seems to be a natural feeder to the green if you can carry the right side. yes, I am aware of the wind dimension previously cited.
The wedge shot from the fairway looks to be much more demanding than I previously thought.
thanks ...
Matt:
If the hole is cut in the back left part of the green, trying to drive the green would open up the possibility of winding up front left, and having to putt around the knob that sticks into the green from the left. Because the green is in a bowl, there are some opportunities to putt off a bank to try and feed it around the slope, but in the scenario I described you are likely to be stymied.
The pitch to the back section IS very hard ... the best place you could be in that scenario is short of the green on the right, but it's almost an accident for the ball to stay there.
Aiming right off the tee also brings the right rough into play and a possible big number. If you play left off the tee, the worst you're going to find is probably the bunker.
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Thanks, Tom for the response.
How did you know that my slinger draw doesn't always sling? ;D
My buddies and I call the driver that doesn't sling a "pork." You just pound it and when you look up, it's on a frozen rope straight right.
Looking at the aerial again, I guess you're right. No cut required.
I do like the fact that you made the hole very tempting to drive at roughly 300 yards. IMO, there are too may times that holes are built that are so-called "drivable par 4s" that are in the 330-350 yard range. I'm not short by any means off the tee, but those holes aren't drivable 99% of the time.
Having this hole as #4 is pretty cool because you can derail your round or get it going in the right direction depending on how aggressive you want to be and how confident your thinking is when standing on the tee.
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The scale seems to be very interesting as it wasn't until I looked at the Utube video that I realized the true enormity of that right bunker. I would think that from the tee, it would make it look much closer and easy to carry than it really is.
Tom: did the blindness of the green (from the right) have any bearing on your decision to lose the fore dune on #3?
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Michael D:
Cheater driver -- ?
It's all USGA speced OK.
Help me out in understanding that statement.
thanks ...
Tom D:
Again, just from photos and from what you have said -- if the wedge shot after laying up is THAT demanding -- then getting a birdie would likely be better served by going for the green -- provided one can make the carry over the bunker area. Candidly, it would not surprise me if longer hitters would not even need to hit driver to do it - is that possible save for the days when the wind is howling into one's face. It appears the feeder area just beyond the bunker will propel a ball forward -- no doubt, as you mentioned, if one has too much right-to-left action the ball may found other areas that are far from receptive.
Tom, to help me understand things better -- what is a more demanding hole to drive the 7th at Ballyneal, the 16th at Pac Dunes ot the 4th BD -- in order of most demanding to least demanding ?
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Matt, I ask this in no way as a dig, it's merely an honest question, but do you ever lay up on drivable - say sub 330 - par 4s? Would you ever lay up at Riviera #10?
In case you think I'm razzing you, I will add that I rarely lay up myself, and I know I often don't have the length to get home. I just know with my present game, laying up is not really any safer.
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Michael D:
Cheater driver -- ?
It's all USGA speced OK.
Help me out in understanding that statement.
Did you see the wink emoticon? That implies someone is teasing you. :P
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George,
I've been waiting for you to chime in on this thread. :)
Isn't Barnbougle one of the big ones that you want to knock off your list? (My list as well)
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Michael:
thanks .. by all means get yourself a Bang driver -- ;D
George:
The truth of it this -- the lay-up is often the way I go if the wedge shot left is quite pedestrian or simple in all senses of the word.
I mean if the wedge shot that's left is going to be a very tiny target with plenty of green demands and it needs to be played from say 75-100 yards then I think seriously about going for it since being closer may be the best alternative. From the pic I have seen -- and I mean to minimize my understanding of the 4th at BD since I have NEVER played it -- the shot over the right side looks to be a better play for score purposes. The wedge shot area which was pictured appears to be quite demanding.
The 10th at Riviera is a good example -- laying up is no bargain -- unless you can get the tee shot to the far left which opens up the green from that side. Going for the green is a very low percentage play because few balls can really hit and stay on the surface.
George, I will go for the target if the percentages are no less than 60-40 in my favor.
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Thanks for the honest answer, Matt, I appreciate it.
George,
I've been waiting for you to chime in on this thread. :)
Isn't Barnbougle one of the big ones that you want to knock off your list? (My list as well)
Barnbougle is THE big one at the very tip top of my list, for a lot of deep personal reasons that I won't bore you with.
I usually skim these threads, mostly to see what Tom has to say, but I try to not analyse them too much, as I want some sense of personal discovery when I finally get there. My recollection is that Tom once posted long ago asking not too many post photos for exactly that reason, though I think he has since seen the futility in that request. :)
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At least 75 days a year the wind is so strong that bunker can only be carried with an unbelievable hit - and when it is into that wind Tiger Woods would not even be thinking about making the carry - the risks for missing are too great. The bunker is probably 6 times out of 10 a bogey for a good player and you lose the ball if you miss right.
When the pin is right it is only visible from the high left side of the fairway and it takes a good shot to get it over there - it's much easier to play straight at the bunker and leave the blind pitch (pictured). When the pin is left behind the dune it is blind from everywhere short but the best line is from the far right of the fairway.
In a tournament - if ever they would have one - this hole would be one of the most interesting in the world to watch for the confusion it would cause - but it would need to be into at least a 25mph wind for tour pros.
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In my (limited) experience most non-elite players are delusional about their length off the tee. Sure it's "only" about a 250 yard carry, but how many people actually can carry it that far, as opposed to having it as their total distance. Add to that a common wind that's knocking 25 to 40 yards off your carry and we're asking for a player who can carry it the equivalent of 275 to 290 yards. There aren't that many of those people in the world (although Matt may be one of them).
Matt, if you've got that length then you would, no doubt, always be tempted to go for it. The reward would be a reasonable birdie chance if you are a decent putter and short game. The worst risk is a lost ball right. The lesser risk is the bunkers and a probable bogey. If you're less than an elite player then you could run up a score from the bunkers. They are huge and deep.
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In my (limited) experience most non-elite players are delusional about their length off the tee.
Why do you think we play golf? It indulges us quite nicely... :)
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Bryan,
It's probably closer to a 230-240 yard carry, the yardage book is posted on the Barnbougle website.
(http://www.barnbougledunes.com.au/images/hole_4.gif)
Matt Ward,
A lot can go wrong if you go for the green. A slightl pull or hook and you are in the bunker and scrub to the left. A possible hack out or at the very least a shot at a very shallow target with possilbe distance control issues due to the lie. A miss to the right is often a lost ball. And a ball in the bunker is an obvious bogey.
Even down wind, club selection becomes key. The longer you hit it, the more trouble you bring into play (thick stuff all around the green) and the temptation is to take less club so as to carry the bunker and let it run onto the green. THis of course brings the bunekr back into play for any mishit.
A great hole.
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Note: all those distances from the "yardage" book are in meters.
The amazing thing about this hole is how long it took me to figure it out. For a long time I was trying to get to the far end of the course in three holes, and 3 & 4 would have been a long par five. But I fell in love with this green site and it was clearly impossible for a long par-5 into the wind, and that's when I decided we could fit it two short 4's instead.
Once we had it figured out, it took about a day to build ... I just flagged out the bunkers where they sit, and filled in the hollow of the green a little bit. Well, I guess the tee took a bit longer to build than that.
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That is one of the finest yardage books I've ever seen. :)
I helped work on designing a yardage book for a club a few years back and it always bothers me when great courses have terrible books . The people that designed this one should be commended for a job well done. Extremely clean looking, yardages to points that actually matter, the green color makes it easier to read yardages, explanations on site lines, the spot of the actual front edge of the green, and it doesn't look like a laminate!! Look at the yardages on the green area zoom....absolutely brilliant.
I'm just very impressed. Well done 8)
Edit - After seeing Tom's post above .... yardage book would be incorrect ;D
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Bryan.... I am. Just can't get over how much fun I had being frustrated by that hole!
Pup,
Driving the green is more tempting, but most importantly, there is something for every level of golfer at the 4th at BD. Let's take a 25 handicap, who drives the ball +/- 150 metres. At RQ, the line would be obvious for him. At BD, he can choose between the left and right sides of the fairway, depending on pin position. Then on his second shot, he has to ask himself wether to carry the big bunker, or play left of it....
Matt,
As the hole mostly plays into the wind, trying the carry is an extremely risky shot as the fairway narrows and bunkers come into play...
Thank you Emil.
BTW is that bunker on the RHS much deeper than it looks? Looking at that video Andrew posted, it looks massively deep. And is there a position in the lay up area that still gives you a view of the green, or is it a guranteed blind shot if you lay up?
Pup
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Michael,
It is a massive face. Similar in size to that on the 4th at Royal St George. 10 - 12 feet from base to clearing the lip would be my guess. Someone else will be able to provide a more accurate height I'm sure.
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Interesting that the 221 meter mark -- just beyond the bunker would translate out to roughly 250 yards.
Also in covering the bunker carry it does seem -- from the photos I have seen it appears that once you cover that bunker that the ground does fall towards the green itself. Again, forgive me, my observations are based on pics alone and are not meant to diminish what others who have played the hole can add.
Is the wedge shot from below very demanding to get close to certain pin locations?
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Has anyone played the 4th at Barnbougle and the 10th at Riviera?
I always thought the 10th at Riv was "the" short par four where you could sit on the tee for ages trying to think up your optimal strategy. It would appear that the 4th provides a similar quandary.
It seems like a 4 iron or something to set up a full wedge in from the left side might be an ideal play? Then you can see the green and get a feel for what is required to get it in the vicinity of the hole without having too delicate a chip or inb/w wedge off the short grass.
#3 and #4 are back to back extremely cool holes - one with the blind drive and forebunker on the approach into a tricky green and the other with the heroic drive option and two gnarle bunkers with a fairly evil green.
Great craic!
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[Michael,
It is a massive face. Similar in size to that on the 4th at Royal St George. 10 - 12 feet from base to clearing the lip would be my guess. Someone else will be able to provide a more accurate height I'm sure.
[/quote]Michael,
Sean, I would guess that it is more like 20 feet from base to top of that bunker. The pictures really can't show how big it is unless you have someone standing in there for scale.
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I usually skim these threads, mostly to see what Tom has to say, but I try to not analyse them too much, as I want some sense of personal discovery when I finally get there. My recollection is that Tom once posted long ago asking not too many post photos for exactly that reason, though I think he has since seen the futility in that request. :)
Indeed, the fourth and eighth at Barnbougle were the two holes that I'd hoped to keep photos out of circulation for a while [and managed to for quite a while -- until this thread, there has never been much discussion about #4 anywhere that I've seen]. The front nine holes were seeded first so we had to use pictures of 13 and 17 to get people interested in the course, and #7 was quickly picked up by everyone, but these two have dodged the limelight for the most part.
Michael:
The bunker on #4 is probably 15 feet deep -- nowhere near as big as the face on the 4th at Royal St. George's, which is easily 25-30 feet high.
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Rob,
I have…
I always thought the 10th at Riv was "the" short par four where you could sit on the tee for ages trying to think up your optimal strategy. It would appear that the 4th provides a similar quandary.
At Riviera you don’t think for long because you can’t help yourself. Everything lines up so well for the driver and you ignore the trouble. It doesn’t seem to make sense to play left even though we all know we should. And you should! I was lucky enough to play with Norman Klaparda, a long time member who said, “I’ve been playing here a long time and have always scored much better laying up but at some point every month I hit a driver because I can’t help myself.”
It seems like a 4 iron or something to set up a full wedge in from the left side might be an ideal play? Then you can see the green and get a feel for what is required to get it in the vicinity of the hole without having too delicate a chip or inb/w wedge off the short grass.
At Barnbougle the scale of the fairway bunker and long grass (full of snakes ;D) on the right is intimidating. I played short of the bunker at Barnbougle both days because I was not driving well and a full wedge was a comfortable (admittedly blind) approach. Peter Wood played long and left both times and made great shots in from that position using the slopes in behind to help his approach. I did like the angle he had in, but the tee shot to that position was not a good fit for me. Ben, who was much longer, went for the green both times with good and not so good results. Peter was the only one with two pars at the end. The hole certainly has lots of options, all worth exploring, which is the sign of great hole.
For what it’s worth – I love them both – but I didn’t see similarities in how they made me feel.
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I know I am a little biased , but the 4th is one of my favourite holes anywhere in the world . Each time I play it the wind and the pin position dictate where I should hit the tee shot , and what club I hit
And knowing the green well allows me to use the slopes of the dell to advantage
I particularly love approaching the back left pin position - which I usually do from a short right tee shot - but occasionally through a mishit or sense of adventure I come in from the left side , hit the approach high over the left dune , and then scoot up to see how I fared
I run a 3 day tournament in August each year - pairs matchplay - for the benefit of Peter Mac Cancer Research . We have a lot of fun and raise money for a good cause , and I set up the tees and pin positions each day
That back left pin is always my final day position
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Ian - Thanks - I am clearly overthinking things from a distance! :)
It is strange and unfortunate that these special short par fours are so few and far between - apparently they are like unicorns!
Tom - Do not hide this eye candy of the highest order! :)
I know - mystique is a good thing. I still cannot wait to play this course - photo heroin this is.
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That is one of the finest yardage books I've ever seen. :)
I helped work on designing a yardage book for a club a few years back and it always bothers me when great courses have terrible books . The people that designed this one should be commended for a job well done. Extremely clean looking, yardages to points that actually matter, the green color makes it easier to read yardages, explanations on site lines, the spot of the actual front edge of the green, and it doesn't look like a laminate!! Look at the yardages on the green area zoom....absolutely brilliant.
I'm just very impressed. Well done 8)
Edit - After seeing Tom's post above .... yardage book would be incorrect ;D
Jonathon,
I believe the illustrations in the Barnbougle yardage book were drawn by Michael Cocking, who works for Mike Clayton. He certainly has some talent.
TK
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I usually skim these threads, mostly to see what Tom has to say, but I try to not analyse them too much, as I want some sense of personal discovery when I finally get there. My recollection is that Tom once posted long ago asking not too many post photos for exactly that reason, though I think he has since seen the futility in that request. :)
Indeed, the fourth and eighth at Barnbougle were the two holes that I'd hoped to keep photos out of circulation for a while [and managed to for quite a while -- until this thread, there has never been much discussion about #4 anywhere that I've seen]. The front nine holes were seeded first so we had to use pictures of 13 and 17 to get people interested in the course, and #7 was quickly picked up by everyone, but these two have dodged the limelight for the most part.
Michael:
The bunker on #4 is probably 15 feet deep -- nowhere near as big as the face on the 4th at Royal St. George's, which is easily 25-30 feet high.
George,
Sorry, I should have posted a spoiler alert in the subject for those such as yourself who prefer to approach a new course unsullied by preconceptions based on pictures and analysis by others. :-[ ;)
Tom,
Ooops. Sorry to you too. I missed the desire to keep these holes under wraps. :-[ :-[
On the other hand, I'm reminded of the biblical idiom to not hide one's light under a bushel. All of these holes are well worth seeing, analyzing and discussing. They do nothing but reflect well on you, Mike and the rest of the team.
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Only four holes in, and I'm left wondering whether this great ride can continue for the remainder of the round. Onwards now to the 5th, turning with the wind along a path on top of the dune towering over the beach and Anderson Bay.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02667.jpg)
Hole #5 Par 3 201 meters (223 yards)
The tees for #5 are strung out like pearls on a string along the top of the dune, and further along the path, the tees for #6. Leave the clubs there before descending to putt out the 5th green.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-5.jpg)
Although appearing to be a long three on the card, the hole plays substantially shorter being both downhill and downwind.
From this vantage point, it is easy to see that the tie-ins from the green to the surrounding dunes is a work of art.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02669.jpg)
Of note in the aerial and not so evident on the ground is that the green is angled from the tee. Along with the slopes off the dunes front and left and the tailing wind, the most obvious shot is to run it on from somewhere on the short left. Played that way, the shot rewards you with delayed gratification as it bounces and releases onto the green. The trick of course is to try to control the release to where the pin is. Flying high shots at dart boards, this is not.
In my first attempt, pictured, the ball released only to the front upper tier while the pin was on the back lower tier. The first putt ran nearly of the back of the green. Down a ridge and down wind required a defter touch than I had. The putt just kept running out Nice 3 putt bogey. The second attempt was to a front centre pin. My tee shot of course released to the lower back section, leaving a slower putt back up over the ridge. Three putts later, another nice bogey.
The tee shot generates distance control issues with the bounce and run shot most of us are not familiar with. The green creates devilish speed and slope issues.
The cavernous bunkers scraped out of the dune short right might draw your attention on the tee, but shouldn't be in play except for the worst foozle.
Having completed the hole, wouldn't it be neat to duck up the right dune back to the 4th tee and play 4 and 5 again.
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The view from the back tee.
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web_4.jpg)
A very intimidating shot when played into the wind. Requires all of a driver or three wood to get to the green and the target all of the sudden becomes very narrow. The beach comes into play.
The bunker definitely points players to the left and I think sometimes the best play is to go straight at the flag rather than use the bank to the left of the green.
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We hit putts on the 5th for 30 minutes the first day ... every pin has a putt ... many involve the use of the short grass to find the line where you need to go.
Very cool green ... lots of fun to play!
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Ian, I see below your picture : Chasing Stanley, obviously talking hockey there ;D
When I was there during construction (the front nine wasn't built), the 5th was unclear to me... I understood the concept of the hole but it was hard to figure out how cool it would be, I guess it's the type of hole you need to see shots to go, Oh my !!!!
if Ian spent 30 minutes there, must be fun !!!
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George,
Sorry, I should have posted a spoiler alert in the subject for those such as yourself who prefer to approach a new course unsullied by preconceptions based on pictures and analysis by others. :-[ ;)
Tom,
Ooops. Sorry to you too. I missed the desire to keep these holes under wraps. :-[ :-[
On the other hand, I'm reminded of the biblical idiom to not hide one's light under a bushel. All of these holes are well worth seeing, analyzing and discussing. They do nothing but reflect well on you, Mike and the rest of the team.
I know you are joking, but I can say, it's been a long time, so I think it's fine to post the tour. The way my memory is these days, I won't remember anything much past next week anyway, so you have that going for you, which is nice.
Thanks for the pix, they are appreciated. Don't tell Tom :), but there was a rather contentious thread awhile ago on the 4th, by one of our friends down under.
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We hit putts on the 5th for 30 minutes the first day ... every pin has a putt ... many involve the use of the short grass to find the line where you need to go.
Very cool green ... lots of fun to play!
Ian,
Not sure I understand ..... every pin has a putt ..... ? Are you saying that if you try enough lines and speeds you will eventually find one that will work for each pin location? If so, it seems likely to be true on this green, but there's another one later where there was at least one putt where in 5 minutes or so, that I couldn't find a line or speed. Seemed like a guaranteed three putt.
................
And, here I thought Chasing Stanley was about Thompson. ??? Or, is Phillipe just having fun?
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Brian,
The 13th to the back right pin from the back left corner maybe?
I understand what Ian is saying about every pin having a putt - and at 13 it may take a while to find it but there is generally a way.
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Mike,
You got the right green, but I was thinking the back centre tier/bowl/shelf (?) to a pin in the middle right swale. I tried different angles, trickling it over, or putting it past the pin and having it feed back off the rise. Nothing closer than 10 or 12 feet. Maybe I just needed more time. ;D Sad part was that the pin was set on the back tier the next day and I couldn't get my ball back there off the tee that day. A fun green. I imagine there are many locations on that green that might require Ian's half hour to find the lines.
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After the weekend hiatus, on to the 6th hole.
Hole #6 381 meters (420yards)
Back up to the top of the awesome seaside dune for spectacular views of the bay and the 6th hole, the wind still at your back. From the aerial, the challenge off the tee is apparent. Hit it left to the open fairway or try to carry the conical dune down the right side.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-6.jpg)
From the tee, the same options are obvious. A safe shot left provides a more challenging angled shot at the green along the dune line to the left. The shot over the dune on the right raises doubt about whether you can carry it, even with the wind, and the risks of flaring it a bit to the right and into the hay. The carry is about 260 yards, so not a huge challenge to big hitters, but just at a distance for most of the rest of us to be uncertain.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02670.jpg)
A lower level view of the elevation to the green. The dune ridge interferes with a shot from the left, particularly to a back left pin position, if you go too far of the tee, but it doesn't seem likely that you could drive through the left side into trouble. The right side offers a a better angle to approach up the length of the green. As you can see the fairway is quite rumpled with few level lies. It's also evident from the divots that there is a popular low collection point in the middle of the fairway. In olden days, perhaps after a couple of years, they might have put a bunker there. ;) Lest anyone think that as you get down into the dunes, that the wind is abated in any way, that would be wrong. The wind is just as strong as it is funneled up the valleys in the dunes.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02672.jpg)
Approaching the green, the challenge is distance control with the tail wind. Despite the rise in front of the green it is possible to run the shot up, although care has to be taken not to run it off the right side ledge. As with all the greens at BD, there are closely mown runoff areas around this green offering many recovery options.
From the picture from behind the green the rumpled fairway and the pronounced drop-off to the right of the green is evident. There is a fair amount of internal movement in the green, but it is perhaps milder than many of the others.
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8224/p5180028.jpg)
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Are you saying that if you try enough lines and speeds you will eventually find one that will work for each pin location?
Through trial and error - Peter, Ben and myself hits putts (often off the green and into the feeder slope) trying to find the most effective way to get the ball close on the most complicated of the pin positions. I had the advantage of Peter saying where the pins had been pushed to during his event and other days he had played.
We did the same at the 13th and 17th the next day too.
Stanley is Thompson – my hockey skills are definitely fading! And the Leafs……
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Tom D,
When we get to the 7th, would you please share some of the options you considered. It would be incredibly interesting to learn how you choose between all those interesting alternatives.
I ask now, because I may have trouble getting back to the thread over the next two weeks.
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On the 7th hole, it's remarkable how little disturbance was there, I was a picture of the first time they ran an excaator to that green site and not a lot has changed...
Ian, I knew you were chasing the Toronto Terror (Thompson) and not the Toronto Error (Leafs)
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Hole #7 Par 3 112 meters (123 yards)
What did Tom call this hole a few posts back - the Little Devil? Well I can think of a few choice adjectives I could add in before devil, but then Ran and Ben would probably be annoyed, so I won't use them. This hole is proof positive that holes don't have to be long to be difficult. The aerial might be difficult to decipher, but the tees are to the bottom right and the green is in the middle. I expanded the shot so that it is evident how close to the ocean the hole is.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-7.jpg)
For the record, Tom and crew have turned back into the prevailing wind for this short hole. The green is small - around 3300 sq.ft. and longer than it is wide. That would be a small target, regardless of the wind. The wind can make it play significantly harder. As you can see from the picture below, the tee and green are quite exposed sitting near the top of the seaside dune line. Given that the dune line is 30 to 40 feet high, a good bit of turbulence is added in the lee of the dune. Any side spin on the shot is seriously augmented by the wind, making directional control to a narrow target tenuous at best.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02673.jpg)
The green is like a table top, and fast and firm, with false front, side and back. The left side by the bunker might be flat, but that is of little stopping comfort. The only bailout area that might be useful is short centre and that's small and tilted.
The good news ...... if you do get it on there is a reasonable chance at a birdie given how small the green is.
Left in the bunker is difficult - it's 8 or so feet deep and recovery shots are likely to be going almost horizontal when they land. Very easy to go right across the green and over the right embankment.
The right side drops off sharply maybe 4 or 5 feet. It's easy to land on and run off the side. If the shot is hot enough the back right bunker is in play. In there is dead - a long bunker shot, downwind to a small table top. Double would look good from there. From the closely mown runoff on the right side it is a delicate shot to get it up on to the green and get it to stay. A flop shot looks mighty risky off a tight lie. Maybe a putter, although the grass is just long enough that getting the speed right up a steep slope would be difficult. I tried 6 times with various chips from there and managed to get one to stay on. (I know, I know, ...... lousy short game).
Long presents the same issues only accentuated because the drop off is greater and the recovery is dead down wind.
This one is a cruel little devil in the wind; does anyone on the design/build crew want to take personal credit for this one? But, sheesh, I'd really love to try it again. ;D
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Bryan,
The 6th hole doesn't look particularly interesting to me. Is there more to it than the photos?
Also the 7th hole looks like a ripper. What would the dimensions of the green be in metres (length and width)? And what is the collection area like on the RHS like to get U&D from? Seems like a tough spot to miss it.
Pup
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Michael,
Any miss other than short right is worse than 50/50 to save your par. Miss to the right and the smart play is putter but if you don't give it enough it's back at your feet. Too much and you get to visit the bunker that forced you to err right in the first place.
A little knockdown 7 iron landing between front right bunker and right edge of green and running up using the contours is the play for me, but being a lefty the slight right to left of such a shot after it bounces lessens the chances of missing right so not sure if it's the shot for righties.
Re 6 what's not to like. look at the last photo, a lovely rippled fairway meaning a flat stance is a luxury.(if it had been taken either end of the day it would be easier to see). Also it probably doesn't come out in the photo but from memory there is a decent amount of elevation change to consider as well. Take on the carry and you get an easier second. Play safe left and the chances of your approach being shunted off to the right are good. Play two good shots and your chances of walking off with a birdie are pretty good. Play one poor/ill considered/overambitious one and Bogey or worse.
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Brian,
The 13th to the back right pin from the back left corner maybe?
I understand what Ian is saying about every pin having a putt - and at 13 it may take a while to find it but there is generally a way.
Mike,
You got the right green, but I was thinking the back centre tier/bowl/shelf (?) to a pin in the middle right swale. I tried different angles, trickling it over, or putting it past the pin and having it feed back off the rise. Nothing closer than 10 or 12 feet. Maybe I just needed more time. ;D Sad part was that the pin was set on the back tier the next day and I couldn't get my ball back there off the tee that day. A fun green. I imagine there are many locations on that green that might require Ian's half hour to find the lines.
David Elvins, the unfortunate gentleman stuck in the bunker on the 4th in the video, another bloke and I, all spent close to an hour on this green and I can assure you that all pins are accessible if you are creative enough!
It's quite extraordinary where the ball will feed on that green if you hit it to the correct spot.
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Michael,
I think Sean has answered regarding #6. All I'd add is that it was a joy to get on the tee with driver in hand and be downwind and let it rip. Probably gets a lot of people in trouble.
The 7th green would be about 15 meters wide and 20 or so meters deep. Small.
Andrew,
I guess you can work more creativity into an hour with three people than I could with one person and 5 minutes. Pace of play must have been good that day. ;D What a fantastic green that it entices people into lengthy periods of trying to figure it out.
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This one is a cruel little devil in the wind; does anyone on the design/build crew want to take personal credit for this one? But, sheesh, I'd really love to try it again. ;D
He has never advertised it as such, but as I remember, Eric Iverson built this green, and he and Brian Schneider dug the bunkers. The fact that Eric is our resident low-handicapper probably influenced the size of the green a bit, but the idea was always to keep it small.
I will give credit for the original idea of the "Little Devil," or at least its name, to our friend Tim Weiman who now rarely appears on this site. Years ago when we were at Stonewall together he talked of his affinity for really short par-3 holes, which he called "little devils". When we found the site for one in Tasmania, I thought it appropriate to hijack his name for it.
Ian asked about different routing options we considered for this hole. There were basically three of them. In an older routing, the hole played the opposite direction, downwind from green to tee (actually to a narrow little valley beside the tee). But, we couldn't figure out a safe way to get from the sixth green to that tee, so we abandoned the idea.
The next routing had a par-3 hole playing from pretty much the present tee, to the top of the dune ridge overlooking the beach, followed by a somewhat shorter par-4 8th hole. That didn't work so well for the landing area(s) on #8, and the more we looked at the green site, with a steep drop at the right of it, we thought that would become a death pit with the usual left-to-right crosswind. We didn't like what that did for either hole, so Mike Clayton and I looked hard at #8 and arrived at the present tee location, and then started looking at what to do in between. Mike suggested turning back into the wind [since the next several holes were all downwind], and from the moment he suggested that, it took about five minutes to find the green site and decide what we were going to do.
The small bailout area to the right of the green is key to making the hole work. It's an impossibly tiny target without the bailout area, but with it, you can play safely to the right and then guarantee yourself a 4 with a decent putt up the bank. In match play, there are days when I would aim there if I held the honor, and dare my opponent to take on the green and all the trouble left and long.
P.S. I didn't comment on #6, and I don't think it is one of the standout holes on the course, but I really like the hole because it was essentially all there [apart from leveling out the green a bit]. Some commenters have implied that we should have done something more with it somehow, but I think that hole exemplifies the sort of restraint we try to bring to the job. It makes strategic sense and the shot values were fine as it lay ... why do more? This is especially so in light of the multitude of choices you face on #4 and #8, and the demanding nature of #5 and #7 ... a wild sixth hole in the middle of all that would have been overkill.
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Tom,
Even you might be underselling the sixth. When the wind is from the east, I would rate it one of the top holes on the course (behind maybe only 4, 11, 13, and 15). Downwind it is an unfortunate length as it is too easy to fly the dune on the right. Into the wind, when it plays as a driver - mid iron hole, the strategy really comes to the fore and the player has a difficult decision to make as to whether to try and fly any of the dune.
Conversely, the 7th becomes a much poorer hole in the easterly wind. Holding the 7th green becomes almost impossible with anything more than a 2 club wind behind the player.
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Thanks Tom - I really enjoy those insights.
Regards,
Ian
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This one is a cruel little devil in the wind; does anyone on the design/build crew want to take personal credit for this one? But, sheesh, I'd really love to try it again. ;D
.........................
The small bailout area to the right of the green is key to making the hole work. It's an impossibly tiny target without the bailout area, but with it, you can play safely to the right and then guarantee yourself a 4 with a decent putt up the bank. In match play, there are days when I would aim there if I held the honor, and dare my opponent to take on the green and all the trouble left and long.
........................
Tom,
Thanks for the insights; I was intrigued by your strategy for playing the hole. What percentage of players do you imagine would take your suggested approach (in match play, or otherwise) even if you stood on the tee and advised them. Do not all of us players have it burned into our brains: see green, hit green. I have trouble seeing anything other than a small minority opting to take a sure bogey rather than try to hit the green. As an architect, do you design holes like this to tempt players into trouble, knowing that the vast majority won't try to manage the hole to minimize damage?
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Dave Elvins,
I agree with you on the 6th.Into the wind it is a fantastic hole.If it isn't so strong there is a chance to carry it for long hitters but probably most go left and play a long or middle iron from there.
9,10, 11,13 and 14 are also fantastic holes into the wind - better probably that they are with the wind behind.
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Bryan,
With the prevailing wind there is a very real option of playing 'safely' at the green, with any wind interference pushing it to the right collection area, so you can sort of have your cake and eait it too. however, best not to hit the downslope on the fly....!
Mike,
wind or no wind, I don't think the 10th gets the credit it deserves, that is one of my favourite greens anywhere in the world, I just love it.
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Hole #8 Par 4 446 meters (491 yards)
Looking at the scorecard upon approaching this hole it would be easy to be intimidated - it is the number 1 stroke hole and the yardage befits a major championship length. With the strong prevailing wind at your back, it turns out that the length is manageable. I'd imagine that in calm conditions or worse, into a wind, the hole would be a beast, no doubt deserving of its stroke rating.
It presents off the tee as a two tiered fairway, but as evident in the aerial, what appears to be the more direct line up the left fairway is only marginally (10 yards) shorter than the lower right fairway.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-8.jpg)
Strategically from the tee, the upper left fairway appears to present the direct line. The flag is visible in the dunes in the distance in that direction. The risks appear to be the dunes intruding into your vision on the left with the deadly long grass or the possibility of hitting down the middle and getting hung up in the rough separating the upper and lower fairways.
The right side appears to offer a less risky drive with the downsides being to lose it too far right or to have a longer shot into the green
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02674.jpg)
In playing it twice, I managed to hit good drives both times, once up the left, and the second down the right. Based on those two plays I don't know which is the better approach or if there is a better one. Perhaps either is fine, and it just depends on how comfortable you are with accuracy off the tee and what kind of second shot you want to have. From the aerials and the picture that follows it is evident that the upper fairway feeds down to the lower one at about 280 yards. Although I'm not positive based on my one play to the upper side, I suspect that there is a turbo slot on that side that might aid the long hitters, although I stand to be corrected on that. The risk is that you could end up with a pronounced downhill or sidehill lie.
From the picture below, from the upper left side, it is apparent that the fairway is more level with the elevation of the green, but the dunes and bunker encroach on the visuals of the line. From the lower right side the green is elevated some 15 to 20 feet above the fairway. The green looks like a fortress from there, but at least the line is less cluttered and there looks like an area on the right where you might actually not be in trouble if you come up short. From either side it looks like an intimidating shot. Against a wind, I'd think that most would end up at the bottom of the ridge with a blind third shot.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02675.jpg)
From closer in with my wee playing partner for perspective, the size of the ridge is evident.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02677.jpg)
My recollection of it is that it was large (20 yards wide by 40 yards long) and fairly benign, befitting a long hole. It was one of several holes where I recall that there was a kick plate on the left side of the green that might be useful approaching the green with a long second shot. Thanks to Matthew for the pics of the green.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/mrdela/Barnbougle%20Dunes/IMG_3220.jpg)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/mrdela/Barnbougle%20Dunes/IMG_3221.jpg)
My drive is evident in the second picture and my second is on the right front edge of the green in the third. Two putts for par. I like this hole. An exciting drive and a demanding second. I like this hole. ;D
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Bryan,
With the prevailing wind there is a very real option of playing 'safely' at the green, with any wind interference pushing it to the right collection area, so you can sort of have your cake and eait it too. however, best not to hit the downslope on the fly....!
Mike,
wind or no wind, I don't think the 10th gets the credit it deserves, that is one of my favourite greens anywhere in the world, I just love it.
Andrew,
Almost invariably my knockdown shots have a (RH) draw to them. Into a headwind they become hooks, even with short irons. They don't drift right. :P And yes, I know about the ball kicking off the right side. The bunker way back on the right is double bogey hell.
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Would you believe me if I told you that this gentleman made 3 from this position on 7? :o
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4369/img0340small.jpg)
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1795/img0341small.jpg)
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2181/img0342small.jpg)
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7079/img0343small.jpg)
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Sadly, I didn't get a picture of the green, but my recollection of it is that it was large (20 yards wide by 40 yards long) and fairly benign, befitting a long hole. It was one of the holes where I believe there was a kick plate to the left of the green that might be useful approaching the green with a long second shot.
My drive is evident in the second picture and my second is on the right front edge of the green in the third. Two putts for par. I like this hole. An exciting drive and a demanding second. I like this hole. ;D
Bryan,
Here are some greenside pics.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/mrdela/Barnbougle%20Dunes/IMG_3219.jpg)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/mrdela/Barnbougle%20Dunes/IMG_3220.jpg)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/mrdela/Barnbougle%20Dunes/IMG_3221.jpg)
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Tom,
Even you might be underselling the sixth. When the wind is from the east, I would rate it one of the top holes on the course (behind maybe only 4, 11, 13, and 15). Downwind it is an unfortunate length as it is too easy to fly the dune on the right. Into the wind, when it plays as a driver - mid iron hole, the strategy really comes to the fore and the player has a difficult decision to make as to whether to try and fly any of the dune.
Conversely, the 7th becomes a much poorer hole in the easterly wind. Holding the 7th green becomes almost impossible with anything more than a 2 club wind behind the player.
Dave and Mike,
I agree, with you about 6. A really good hole which uses the natural terrain beautifully. When I walked onto the tee for the first time it reminded me a little of 5 at Cruden Bay with the elevated tee and dunes cutting in on both sides. It's not a hole that will knock your socks off but it offers plenty of width, lots of strategy and it's not overdone by man. If one were to define a golf course by its "average holes" this hole would elevate Barnbougle above 99% of contenders.
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Threads like this one are the reason I have CGA bookmarked. I can't wait to see the rest of the holes and read the comments. Thanks all.
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??? ??? ???
Wow ,,,doesn;'t this remind you of Royal County Down in pictures at least???
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Archie:
The back nine is not so much like Royal County Down.
Then again, neither is the back nine at Royal County Down!
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Not to mention the sun shines a lot more at BD.
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;D ;) :D
Quite good Tom , as to the pictures they do look similar to RCD , except for the deep bunkers ....as for the two nines the first is sooooooooooo good it does overhwhelm you as you suggest
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Hole #9 Par 4 400 meters (440 yards)
The 9th continues to play down wind and returns you to the clubhouse. From the aerial it is evident that the last part of the fairway and the green are displaced to the left of the main landing area off the tee. If you pay attention when leaving the clubhouse to start your round you can place the green as hard against the clubhouse. The length is robust for a par 4, but with the prevailing wind and the topography of the fairway it plays shorter.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-9.jpg)
Standing on the tee for the first time, the strategy and line off the tee is not at all obvious. The landing area is blind, there is a hint of trouble on the higher left side, and the fairway seems to want to go to the right. Meanwhile, if you remember, the green is in front of the clubhouse, whose roof is visible to the left above the crest of the fairway. There is some uncertainty about what lies beyond the crest and how the humpy bumpy fairway is going to propel the ball.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02678.jpg)
Despite the length, it turns out to be easy to get the ball a long way down due to following wind and the contours of the fairway. The likely resting place is down in a hollow to the right of the green leaving a short iron in to an elevated green. The difficulty is that the approach from that angle needs to deal with the deep bunkers guarding the front right side. What's not evident from down there is that the green not only is downwind, but it runs pretty quickly away towards the clubhouse. The trick is to land short of the green and let it release down to the pin. But, then from the right side those bunkers sort of get in the way at least in your head, with that strategy.
Perhaps a better strategy off the tee is to lay the tee shot back to the 150 meter mark (which I achieved in the second round off a missed driver) where there is a relatively level lie with a straighter approach down the length of the green.
Another interesting feature of the green surrounds is yet another left to right slope of fairway blending into the green. It can be usefully used both from the laid back in the fairway shot or even more creatively for the shorter right side shot to bank shots away from the bunkers and feed them in to pin positions either front or back. Watching the ball slowly release out on the green is great fun.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02679.jpg)
The green itself is fairly benign to putt although a delicate touch is required going from front to back. Although I don't have a picture of the green, the following shot from the cottages looking over the green to the left of the clubhouse indicates fairly well the front to back slope. From this angle it is a much greater grade than what it looks like when you approach it from the fairway side.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02653.jpg)
And, thanks to Emil for a shot of the green that shows the kick plate to the left of and feeding in to the green.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss47/HarryFlarry/Barnbougle/042.jpg?t=1264691835)
The adventure of a blind tee shot followed by the challenge of a well placed bump and run to a redan-like green makes for a fun hole, although with the wind it should be a relatively easy par.
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When the course first opened it wasn't quite as hard and fast as it is now , and a decent drive placed you on the elevated ridge 150 metres out looking at a green sited with the spectacular beach as a backdrop( I may dig around for an old pic)
It was one of my really favourite shots in golf - the wind and pin positions dictated whether you attempted to fly to the heart of the green or bounce in from the left . It's still a very good hole but the clubhouse extension now blocks out the beach backdrop , and a decent drive runs down into the valley where the majority of balls gather .
For me the shot from down there with a wedge is still intriguing but not an all world shot
This is one of a number of holes that may benefit if reviewed by Tom at some stage
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The 8th hole is easily the hardest golf hole i have ever played. we played it into a pretty stiff breeze and myself and the other low markers that i played with couldn't even get close with driver / 3 wood. The 9th is a bit of a relief and a real fun hole. just hang your second out there low and left and watch it gather to the hole. having grown up playing on the links courses of scotland i can say that Barnbougle is up there with the very, very best of them. hoping to get back down there again later in the year with a group of aussie supers to check out the new arrival.
robin
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Peter,
Here is a shot from the shelf I think you are referring to, and upon reflection it is a shame that the clubhouse blocks the view of the beach. I had never been there when it wasn't like that, so didn't miss it.
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5753/p5180044small.jpg)
Here is a shot of the view I think you could possibly have got without that clubhouse extension
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9844/img0352small.jpg)
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That is the first time I've seen a picture from the ninth fairway since the clubhouse was expanded. I've been told I wouldn't like it, but I have to admit, when I saw it my heart sank. It was such a beautiful view "before" and the golf hole was really designed around that view.
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It was such a beautiful view "before" and the golf hole was really designed around that view.
You better hope Pat Mucci doesn't see this comment ;D Fortunately, especially for him, he is otherwise distracted by greatness today!
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Looking back #9 at sunset
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss47/HarryFlarry/Barnbougle/042.jpg?t=1264691835)
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When the course first opened it wasn't quite as hard and fast as it is now , and a decent drive placed you on the elevated ridge 150 metres out looking at a green sited with the spectacular beach as a backdrop( I may dig around for an old pic)
It was one of my really favourite shots in golf - the wind and pin positions dictated whether you attempted to fly to the heart of the green or bounce in from the left . It's still a very good hole but the clubhouse extension now blocks out the beach backdrop , and a decent drive runs down into the valley where the majority of balls gather .
For me the shot from down there with a wedge is still intriguing but not an all world shot
This is one of a number of holes that may benefit if reviewed by Tom at some stage
Peter,
It's strange to hear that a course is firmer and faster a few years after it is built. I thought that courses/greens were generally most firm when brand new. At least we can't blame the ball running further out on this hole on changes in the ball technology.
Re a review of the hole, what did you have in mind? Further back tees to move the second shot back up the fairway? Bunkers in the valley? Moving the green further toward the bay and further to restore the view? But, keep the current plan, for those in a 100 years who would want to restore it to the designer's original intent.
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Good drives don't run down into the valley - good drives finish up on top and that may mean hitting a three wood and not a driver.
Well hit but poorly positioned drives finish down in the valley.
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Emil:
Your picture shows how steep that left-to-right bank is. Eric Iverson spent 2-3 days working on that slope, which was even steeper to start with ... we had to taper it back so the ball wouldn't go screaming through the green, and we filled in some of the approach with that dirt.
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It was such a beautiful view "before" and the golf hole was really designed around that view.
You better hope Pat Mucci doesn't see this comment ;D Fortunately, especially for him, he is otherwise distracted by greatness today!
JC - please - I pointed out YEARS AGO that Tom Doak has stated he designs to maximize external views when they are available... you really think this sways Mucci? You could tell him 2+2=4 and if he believes it's 5, he will accept no other answer. And I admire you for the tenacity, but the list of those trying to get him to admit error - and failing - is a long, long, long one. Best for your sanity to just give it up. You're not gonna get any blood from that turnip, believe me.
;)
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I agree with Ian, thanks Tom and Mike for providing the additional insights.
Looking forward to the back 9.
Huck knows nothing sways Pat on a mission... :)
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As we pause for a moment at the turn, I'm getting curious as to who did what to whom that resulted in the finished product. Tom, you've indicated in an earlier post that a dune on 3, I think, was removed after you left. And, just above that Eric shaped the side of 9 green. Or that somebody else did the 7th green.
Did you or Mike have final say on how the dune was removed or the slope on 9 is graded, or is that work delegated to team members? Were you and Mike the final arbiters on all design and routing decisions? Bunker location, sizing and construction? Finishing touches? Given the other thread about the unnamed Phillie course, who decides about the seeds? Perhaps with a few answers here we can save future forensic architectural researchers from going crazy trying to infer what happened.
If this is too intrusive or time consuming, I understand.
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Bryan:
I'm happy to address your questions, although the truth is that the whole endeavour is a team effort, and sometimes you can't really say or can't remember who really came up with this idea or that. I've thrown in some of the particulars that I can recall distinctly, but there are hundreds of decisions that are made along the way.
As preamble, we started construction at Barnbougle almost immediately after Cape Kidnappers was completed. Most of my crew had been in New Zealand for six months and were anxious to get back home; my associate Brian Schneider and his fiancee were the only ones really enthusiastic about staying down under. Plus, we were on a very tight budget and it was not clear that our client would pay for the whole army to be there, so he got the youngest, most inexperienced guy on my crew. I had faith that he would make the most of the opportunity.
Brian was assisted by Mike Clayton's team, including Ashley Mead running the job and Jason McCarthy doing a lot of shaping, and by three interns from RGD ... Kyle Franz who had worked a bit at Pacific Dunes, Philippe Binette who now works with Rod Whitman, and George Waters who did a lot of the work at the Cal Club. The latter two were straight out of school, and about the time they had to return, I sent over Chad Grave who was also straight out of school.
Our process is that I'll give the guys plenty to work on while I'm away, but then I'll bring another shaper when I make a visit so we can shift into high gear and knock out several greens in ten days' time. That's what Eric Iverson's role was; he came with me while Brian was on his honeymoon, and he knocked out greens 6-7-8-9 while he was there, on top of tweaking a couple of the back nine greens that Brian had done, and the left landing area on #8 which took a lot of work. Nearly all of the greens were built with me on site, and then they would go and dig bunkers and do the other stuff (based on my flags in the ground, with license to change the shapes) while I was away. It was a very small crew with only 3 pieces of construction equipment, so the work went fairly slowly, and I would get back every six weeks and work on 4-6 holes at a time.
I mentioned the mound on the third green because it was one of the very rare things that someone else decided after I'd left. On my last construction visit we were trying to get that green done and most of the equipment was broken down, and I was trying to massage that mound with a 1970's bulldozer that had no horsepower left, so I couldn't get it finished and left Brian to make the final call. There may be one or two greens like that on some of my courses, but they are the exceptions rather than the norm.
The job ran so smoothly that it's pretty much been my model for how to organize other jobs since. I wasn't really on site that many days, but by comparison to most modern courses, there wasn't a lot to build.
Mike Clayton was there every 2-3 weeks on his own schedule, and he would give Brian and the others his input for edits as he watched what they built, or he'd email me and ask about a particular hole and share a different idea for it. I don't remember as much detail about those things as I remember what we did when I was on site.
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We played the 9th both days from the back of the 8th green on the small plateau off to the left. You had to hit a great drive to have a good look at the green. No chance to hit it down the slope. We thought the hole was great from there since the back tee was closed and Peter suggested we give it a try.
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Thanks Tom, that was great. And, here I thought it was all glamor and glory, and not broken down 70's dozers. ;)
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Ian:
I was going to ask if anybody ever used that left-hand tee ... it was meant to be an alternate tee, even though it's so close to the 8th green that you can't really put the markers on it. It does make getting around the corner a much different story. Did they show you where Greg Ramsay wanted the hole to go down the valley to the left instead?
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we had to taper it back so the ball wouldn't go screaming through the green, and we filled in some of the approach with that dirt.
its till does ;D
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I was going to ask if anybody ever used that left-hand tee ... it was meant to be an alternate tee, even though it's so close to the 8th green that you can't really put the markers on it.
I have used it a couple of times. A much harder hole from there I think.
As a slighlty amusing aside, the golf course guru, Tony Titheridge was armed with a mountain of knowledge when he made his first trip to barnbougle. he had heard there was a 'secret unofficial' tee back and left of the 8th green. So on the completion of the hole he walked off the back ofthe green and into the dunes to find the tee. For 5 minutes he search but had no luck then he called ove rhis playing partner and two caddies and together for another 5 minutes they scrounged around in the dunes, on the beach and everywhere in between looking for the secret tee, never realising that when someone said back left of the 8th green they meant literally 1 yard back and 1 yard left.
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:) That makes up for the picture of #9.
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Clayts
Most people don't play off the back tee
And even if the punters do know the hole well enough to only hit an iron / fairway wood off the tee to the designated ridge , who is going to forego hitting driver to the safety of a bowl and having wedge in , so they can hit the dream shot from 150 metres?
Nobody does it - and I see hundreds coming through...
And the backdrop is gone
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Mike C:
Curious to know -- if there's a downwind situation at #9 and you get strong hitter busting driver -- how close to the green can they come ?
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Matt,
The hole is 377 yards tee to centre of green as the crow flies. If your bomber can fly it 300 yards and pick the correct line and hit it on that line then it seems quite likely they could drive the green, or indeed run it through into the clubhouse. But, there is death to the left and ugly scrub to the right if you go too far and slopes and bumps just waiting to throw the ball off into bad places. But, it'd be fun to watch people try it.
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I've seen a 20 capper on the front edge down wind. He is a big bomber though, and didn't actually hit the shot with the green in mind, but it took a good bounce and just kept on going.
I was playing my third shot at the time, from down in the collection bowl!
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After a very short walk past the clubhouse, we're ready to start the back nine.
Hole #10 409 meters (450 yards)
Still going down the prevailing wind. Somewhere down the road there's going to be a price paid for all these down wind holes. At first glance, the back nine appears to be more open - the dunes less sharp. The 10th, as shown in the aerial, has a huge expanse of fairway some 50 to 60 yards wide past the left fairway bunker. The hole bends a bit to the left depending on how much you want to miss the fairway bunker by.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-10.jpg)
From behind the back tee the green can be seen perched up on a dune ridge up the left edge of the fairway. The wide expanse of fairway seems to be luring you off to the right. Strategically I don't see much advantage to either side of the fairway. Perhaps the right side is a little more direct up the ridge? In any event, down wind with that huge expanse out there the temptation is to just grip it and rip it.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02680.jpg)
From a little closer up on the more forward tees the green is more visible (at least to the zoomed camera lens). The only trouble is to avoid that fairway bunker. Although the long hitter could carry it, there doesn't seem to be any reason to do so.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02683.jpg)
The second shot is going to be a short iron with the wind and maybe mid-iron on a calmer day. Into the wind approaching the green would be much more difficult. The most striking feature of the hole is the green site. It is a true trompe l'oeil. The pin position this day looks like it's near the front, when actually it is well back in the green. And, what a nice skyline; nothing to help with depth perception.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02684.jpg)
From the fairway it is hard to discern where the green actually is. The leading edge of the front of the green and the ridge line behind the green are so neatly arranged that it is impossible to tell what's forward, what's back, and what's in between. On the first play, I hit a 6 iron in thinking I needed to fly it up top or risk having it come way back down the ridge. I saw the ball land toward the right half of the green, take a few hops and come to rest. I shook my head, wondering how I could have hit it over the green onto the back ridge. When I climbed the ridge to the green I was shocked to discover that I was actually short of the green. The green is artfully set in a bit of a depression between the front ridge and the back ridge.
From this close up photo of the front edge you can see the subtle difference in grass color between fairway and green that helps trick the eye. And, even from close in the heart of the green is still not visible. But some humps that suggest it's going to be interesting the putt this green.
Even from in close, what a wonderful example of a skyline green.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02685.jpg)
And, courtesy of David, a picture of the green contours. As David says: "The pin can be an automatic 3 putt or automatic 1 putt depending if it is in a bowl or on a ridge."
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web10.jpg)
Yet another hole where length is not an issue, but dealing with the green complex is everything.
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Pete,
It's true they don't hit hit 3 woods to stay up - but they should. I would bet Tiger and Hogan would both lay it back on the top and take the 8 iron v the wedge.
Matt
It is a pretty steep rise from the bottom of the valley - but maybe a long hitter could get it up within 100 yards but it isn't really the shot.
The left tee at 9 - one that has never had a tee marker on it - is a great tee shot and it makes the shot to the top of the hill the more obvious one to hit because of the change in the angle of the shot - slightly more across the fairway as opposed to down it.
And its a much shorter walk!
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It took a while for the tenth hole to get some respect. Like mentioned about the 6th, if these are the average holes, it is some course. I think most now realise that the green is one of the best on the course. The pin can be an automatic 3 putt or automatic 1 putt depending if it is in a bowl or on a ridge. Another hole that plays well into the wind.
Here is a photo of the great green contours.
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web10.jpg)
And here is a bit of golf porn - 9th green from a totally irrelevant angle.
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/web_10.jpg)
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It's been great following the discussion on a course I've been lucky enough to play lots of times.
To add some context to the discussion, readers may see that the 10th is a par 4 of reasonable length.
The wind at Barnbougle has been so strong that I've been around 5m short of that green, playing from the 2nd to last tees.
It has also required a 5 iron approach of mine on one time.
The 7th has been beyond reach of a well struck 4 iron.
I've also hit the 8th green with driver sand wedge from the back tees (442m / 480 odd yds).
Bridport really is a windy place. The course is just so well designed for the various winds it's not funny.
MM
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Not much left to say...
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss47/HarryFlarry/Barnbougle/040.jpg?t=1264775462)
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Pete,
It's true they don't hit hit 3 woods to stay up - but they should. I would bet Tiger and Hogan would both lay it back on the top and take the 8 iron v the wedge.
That's very interesting. A looooooooooooong time ago, we had a discussion about Rustic Canyon where a lot of low single digit critics said they'd rather hit wedges from anywhere, any stance. The closest thing to a tour pro who commented - Jeff Fortson, sorry to see he hasn't been around on here, hopefully he is out playing somewhere - said he'd much rather have a flat stance with a 7 iron than an uncomfortable one with a wedge. Pretty telling.
Thanks for the terrific pic, Emil.
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Not much left to say...
.....particularly when a Tiger snake is slithering across your shoes. ;D
Dave Scaletti shared a wonderful story about that before I went to Barnbougle.
I was petrified for the first few holes.
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Tom,
Did you ever have any concerns about the change of setting from the end of the front to the start of the back nine?
It's quite a change in character when you get out to the 10th tee.
Or was this something you really liked about the routing?
Did you have any iterations that began at 10?
This is strictly out of curiosity because I enjoyed the course the way it was presented.
Always trying to learn something extra. :)
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Tom:
Seeing these pictures and reading your comments gives a true appreciation for the routing process. Probably doesn't hurt to have been blessed with what seems to be an ideal site. It seems for BBD the land presented a treasure map of clues for how the course would turn out, and how individual holes would play.
This raises a new found appreciation for the work at OM, where not only does it appear that you were able to create the best possible course for the site, but also to do so while paying homage to the MacDonald template holes that were the inspiration for the design. This raises a couple of questions:
1. How much leeway were you given at BBD for the location of the routing (ie - how much of the terrain was available to build upon)?
2. Did the "homage" process for OM start before or after you had seen the site, specifically did the idea present itself from the land, or was this an idea that took shape well before you started walking the site?
Sven
PS - Hopefully one can still post complements on this site without raising the ire of those still in their early child development phases.
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This thread has moved well past discussion of the 7th hole, but I happened to look back and notice Tom Doak's kind credit for the "little devil". Like Tom said, it was some years before I raised the subject with him. At the time, everything in golf architecture was getting bigger and bigger, so it seemed to me someone - and who better than Tom and his Renaissance team - should do something quite different. That is, build something really small, a "little devil" I called it.
My recollection is that Tom seemed skeptical during our conversation and I assumed nothing would ever become of it. So, the discovery of the 7th at Barnbougle during the Renaissance Cup was quite a pleasant surprise. I remember playing the somewhat monsterous 6th - quite a big hole I thought - and walking to the 7th tee. When I arrived, I felt like I discovered a secret, Gosh, I thought, this incredible little hole may have been my idea. But, I thought the last thing I should do is reveal what I was thinking. After, I didn't design or buld Barnbougle. Tom and his guys did.
So, I played the rest of the round enjoying the course, the companionship of Aussie playing partners and the wonderful setting without knowing one more surprise was coming: after finishing the round Tom approached me and said "so.....how did you like your hole?" Amazingly gracious of Tom, I thought, a small gesture that was much appreciated.
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Any thread drawing Tim out of the woodwork is automatically a top-notch thread.
Great story, Tim, hope life is treating you well.
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Ian,
I didn't realise my story regarding the journey between the 17th green and the 18th tee had such an effect on you.
For the edification of others I told Ian about a "comfort" stop I took between 17 and 18. At about the time I had finished the job at hand I heard a rasping sound to my right. I turned around just in time to see the final 18 inches of some kind of reptile slithering across the path in to the grasses. What concerned me was that the last little bit of it was about as thick as my forearm. Doubly disconcerting was that for the previous day or so I had been wandering blithely through the rough taking my pictures. I think I must have gotten Tasmania confused with Ireland and thought Tassie was as free of snakes as the Emerald Isle.
In summer I always take a "Pacifier" with me when I wander off the fairway in search of a wayward drive, particularly if the grass is long. I find that a 5 iron is usually sufficient, but I also make plenty of noise to warn any snakes of my impending arrival. So far it has been effective.
Below is a couple of images relevant to past discussion, a shot of the 7th and the 9th. It's the first time I have posted a picture, so I'm hopeful I get it right.
Barnbougle 7th
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/davsca/BarnbougleDunes7.jpg)[/img]
Barnbougle 9th
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/davsca/BarnbougleDunes9.jpg)[/img]
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the 10th fairway...
during construction, the start of the 10th fairway was capped with 2-3 feet of sand in spot since it's basicallly on the potato field. Then a storm came one day, the wind kick in before the rain showed up and... well... the capped sand went about 50 yards inland !!
seeing those pictures and especially the bold 'walls or lips' in the bunkers reminded me of my debate with George Waters wheter a foot high vertical lip was acceptable... my philosophy, who cares ! if you hit it in a bunker, tere should be at least a 1% chance of being dead.
now, some of those lips looks 2 feet high !!! wasn't me
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David,
You could not have got those pictures more right. Great shots that highlight how special a course BBD is. Well done.
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I can't think of many threads with more anecdotes than this one. Thank you to each of you for sharing. There are some more great holes to discuss, some features that may bring some debate and for me one green site where I would enjoy hearing Tom’s vision for the hole (it’s not the one you think). But that’s half the fun of this thread and this course.
David,
That photo was worth you walking through a minefield of Tiger Snakes! In my mind that picture has 1,000 hidden snakes all over six feet and hungry for Canadian flesh.
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I think the 10th greensite is probably my favourite one on the course, and one of the greens I like more than any other in Australian golf. An absolute ripper.
Although Matthew alluded to playing to it from close range, even with a half wedge - I think it's a shot that needs to be taken from at least 100m to get the full enjoyment it offers, maybe not for your scorecard though
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Regarding pictures from unusual spots.
Can anyone tell me which green this is, and give an estimate of where I was standing to take the picture?
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2180/img0432t.jpg)
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Lost, that's where you were...
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Ian:
Which green site? 16?
Regarding alternative routings, the back nine routing was pretty much set from the day I decided to work counter-clockwise ... but that was VERY late in the process, only 3-4 months before we started construction.
I had walked around those dunes a ton working on a clockwise routing for the back nine ... I will talk about the snakes after this. Anyway, my tenth hole was playing from the clubhouse site across the beach diagonally and backwards to the 18th tees, like the first hole at Machrihanish ... the next was a short 4 up toward #12 green ... then a par-3 similar to #13, but from further to the right ... then backwards from 17 tee up through 16 green to near 15 green ... and so on.
Andrew, it took me a while to figure out the picture, so I'll bet it takes a while before anyone gets it.
Mike Keiser came down to walk the routing with me and said the only thing he didn't like was finishing away from the ocean on #18, and he wished I would switch that somehow, but it was not so simple as just switching out 10 and 18 because the previous greens were separated by too much. I had a different issue ... after three days on site I had seen how unstable the dunes were near the current 18th tee, and I was concerned that if I put the tenth green there it would wind up buried under a sand drift.
So, I went back out the next day and tried to figure out how to make a counter-clockwise routing. I walked backwards up 18, and then I walked down below and found the narrow plateau for #17 green, and traced that back to a tee site in the dunes ... it was really finding that 17th hole that convinced me to turn it all around. So I went back in and found Mike K. and walked him out to 17 tee, and said what do you think of this hole?, and he said he thought that would be a lot better. So I turned around the rest of the routing [except for figuring out how to keep #13 in its present form], and we were off to the races.
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Re: the snakes:
While Bill Coore and I were together walking around in Florida last month [keeping an eye peeled for snakes], I asked him how he had gotten around Barnbougle to do the routing there. When I was working on those routings I was often wandering around in knee-high marram grass by myself, and not knowing much about Tiger snakes, I was only really looking for them in the dune slack areas where it was wet, thinking they'd be like water moccasins. It was only halfway through construction that I saw a 6-foot tiger snake going across a construction road by #12 tee, and realized that it was a miracle I hadn't been bit.
So, Bill says he and Sue went to a nature reserve while touring Tasmania, and a guide there told them all about tiger snakes. The guide said they would generally move away from you unless you got VERY close to them, and even then, they would make a loud noise [something between a click and a hiss] as a final warning before they bit you. And Bill just about died, because he had heard that noise at least three different times while he was wandering through the marram grass trying to figure out HIS routing.
And to think, people wonder why we are so sure of ourselves!
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Just in case anyone is curious about these bad boys...here is some info: :o :o
Tiger snakes possess a potent neurotoxin (notexin), coagulants, haemolysins and myotoxins, and rank amongst the deadliest snakes in the world. Symptoms of a bite include localized pain in the foot and neck region, tingling, numbness, and sweating, followed by a fairly rapid onset of breathing difficulties and paralysis. While antivenom is effective, mortality rate for this species is over 60% if not treated.[6]
Treatment is the same for all deadly Australian snakes. The Pressure Immobilization Method (PIM) is used to inhibit the flow of venom through the lymphatic system. Broad thick bandages are applied over the bite, then down and back along the limb to the armpit or groin. The affected limb is then immobilized with a splint. Identification of the venom is possible if traces are left near the wound. You do not need to identify the snake if bitten in Tasmania, however, as the same antivenom is used to treat all Tasmanian snakes' bites. The availability of antivenom has greatly reduced the incidence of fatal tiger snake bites, the number of deaths is now exceeded by the Brown snake. [7]
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Regarding pictures from unusual spots.
Can anyone tell me which green this is, and give an estimate of where I was standing to take the picture?
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2180/img0432t.jpg)
Andrew,
OK, I'm going to guess that it's the 7th green taken from somewhere near the 8th tee. Hopefully not from the slithering snake infested marram grass.
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It is good to know that there is only one anti-venom required for any snake bite in Tasmania. I feel so much more reassured now. Better, any ball in the marram grass is a lost ball. Take your stroke and distance and play on. Let's leave it to those adventurous archies to tramp through the stuff. ;D
Now, for any future adventurers who risk the snakey fairways of Tasmania, let's slither on over to the 11th tee, only a few yards to the right of the 10th green.
Hole #11 Par 5 475 meters (525 yards)
The first par 5 since the first hole and downwind and a reasonable length - this is going to be fun. The hole is a bit blind off the tee but turns right and there appears to be a risk/reward drive opportunity.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-11.jpg)
As a tangential thought, standing on the tee, I'm noticing that a lot of the tees have random strands of grass that are perhaps a foot high scattered about. You can see some in the picture below. Is this wire grass? Do they go long intervals between mowings of the tees? Or, does this wire grass (???) just not cut?
Focusing now on the tee shot, everything seems to tilt to the right although the LZ is fairly level. You can't actually see the LZ or where the farway falls away to or what the proper line is. Despite the apparently wide expanse of fairway to aim at, some doubt creeps in. Should you hit a power fade off the left bunker. Or, fly the centre bunker? Or is there a tiger line over the right bunker that significantly shortens the hole?
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02686.jpg)
The left bunker is about 250 yards out so it is definitely in play if you don't cut the ball. Just left of the centre bunker is a good line and carrying the bunker only requires about a 230 yard down wind carry. But don't lose it anywhere right of there. The large bunker on the right will collect anything over there. If you think you can fly the right bunker, think again. It's a 300 yard carry, there's another bunker behind it, and losing it even a bit right of there is snake country.
Having successfully executed the drive you're faced with a second shot across a broad shallow valley to what looks like a large receptive green. Standing over the second shot, I think many players will have the opportunity to get home in two. Like a driveable par 4, a possible two shot par 5 is always welcome on any course I play.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02687.jpg)
Now, there are some subtleties to the second shot in. Of course, you didn't expect it to be easy did you?
Anything up toward the right side of the green has to deal with the runoff a little short to the right. And on that line too, there is a bump that's just waiting to throw your ball off the the right and in to the bunker.
Short left looks like a better bet with a relatively flat lie if you come up a little short. If you have the length to run it in from that side, there is an annoying little ridge at the front left of the green that might just nudge your ball left away from the green.
And, did I mention that again you're down wind and if you come up safely short left, you are left wit a delicate little pitch over the ridge to a green that runs away. To a front left pin position it's hard to get the ball to sit down anywhere near the flag if you pitching from short left.
But, nobody said that birdie should be easy. At least there is an opportunity to have a go.
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Andrew,
Its the 8th green, I think, taken from way off the 9th fairway.
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Emil,
I think not - isn't that Bridport on the hill in the background and the sea to the right. That means the Andrew was facing west, not east, when he took the picture.
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Best guess for the mystery photo is looking back to the 8th green from the 9th fairway on the reverse line of a drive from the "secret" tee box.
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Emil,
I think not - isn't that Bridport on the hill in the background and the sea to the right. That means the Andrew was facing west, not east, when he took the picture.
Bryan,
He IS facing west if he is off the left hand side of the 9th fairway, looking towards the 8th green.
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That dune is 1-of a kind on the property and why I think the mystery picture is the 8th green. The 2 photos are from 180° different angles, so on the mystery pic its on the LHS of the green and on mine its on the RHS.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss47/HarryFlarry/072.jpg?t=1264878419)
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss47/HarryFlarry/img0432t.jpg?t=1264878451)
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Nobody ever talks about #11 much. When we were starting the course I thought it would be a standout hole. I guess it is just frustrating, in that when you can reach it in two, it's very hard to control where the second shot winds up. There is a lot going on in front of that green, and a lot more once you're on the green.
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It is the 7th green, taken from about 150m left of the 9th fairway up on the tallest dune I could find.
As it was May and winter time, I wasn't too concerned by snakes.
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Andrew:
I am pretty sure you just flunked your own quiz, mate. I think it's the eighth green.
Look at the last photo of #8 (looking backward from the green) earlier in this thread. See the triangle of sand that's blown out of the bunkers short of the green? That's the sand behind the green in your photo.
The only bunker behind the green on #7 is way back right -- wrong angle for how you describe where you took the photo. Plus, there are (or were) a couple of little scrubby trees behind #7.
You've got to owe Emil something.
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That's the 8th green taken looking back from a big dune off the left of 9 fairway down the valley Tom chose not to route the 9th
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Emil's earlier post had me doubting myself, but I stuck with 7 as even standing there when I took the picture (i have a few others from the same spot, I just thought that one was cool because it's like a mystery green in the middle of nothing) I thought it was the 7th.
Reviewing a few other pics, and I'm now pretty sure I am wrong and Emil, Tom and Peter are correct, it is the 8th - taken from approx 150m left of the 9th fairway.
Edit: actually, I'm still not sure. As I am so high up there the sand triangle could easily be the left hand bunkers on 7, and it looks too far to be the 8th which would have only been 550m away. I have a shot from the same spot that shows the 1st green as well that puts the distance in perspective. My recollection of the back of the 8th is that it would be too enclosed to see it from where I was.
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Andrew:
The back of the 8th green is not enclosed at all ... just by the dune ridge along the sea, to its left, and the big knob to its right. That's how you can hit a tee shot off the left edge of the green in the direction of #9 fairway.
Peter is correct ... you're up on the dunes near the clubhouse, looking back down the narrow valley where Greg Ramsay kept wanting me to route the 9th fairway. I've walked through there about ten times. And you are only about 300 yards from that green ... it just looks farther because everything looks farther when you don't have the scale of a golf fairway in front of you. The seventh green would be 850 yards away, and being forty feet above it would be fairly insignificant at that distance.
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Emil,
I think not - isn't that Bridport on the hill in the background and the sea to the right. That means the Andrew was facing west, not east, when he took the picture.
Bryan,
He IS facing west if he is off the left hand side of the 9th fairway, looking towards the 8th green.
Sorry Emil, my bad. I read 18 when you really said 8. Gotta get the glasses and brain checked.
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Tom,
I think 11 suffers in comparison to other holes becuse the prevailing wind takes out the main feature, the wide area out to the left of the green. A decent player is hitting 5 iron to 8 iron inot that hole with a modest tail wind. With very strong winds, some pros were apparently getting within 30-40m of the green with their tee shots.
IMO, the hole is much better into the wind and 1/ The centre fairway bunker comes into play, and 2/THere is a much wider choice of where to play the second shot. The green contours are good but also quite subdued, which perhaps makes the hole fade into the background a bit.
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I can see how long hitters could get it down into the valley in front of the green. There is a pretty good turbo boost if you can get it running far enough off the tee. Tom, when you're designing holes of this nature, are you cognizant of the possibility that the longer hitters will enjoy a disproportionate advantage?
I found the hole interesting and challenging, even with a strong tail wind, because I'm not long enough to get to the turbo boost. But the hole is short enough that there is a reasonable chance to get there in two, even for me. The features in front of the green provide some subtle challenge. Not all challenges need to be in your face.
I notice in the picture of the second shot to the green that there is a cluster of divots down in the valley on the right where short shots collect. Maybe the ODG's would place a bunker there, after the fact, to catch those errant second shots and the occasional monster drive. ;)
I presume if a professional tournament were ever held here, this hole would likely be a par 4. There would still be an inordinate advantage to very long hitters. I guess there are always going to be land forms and routings where a turbo boost can't be avoided, and, as a result of it's positioning, that drivers of a certain length are going to be advantaged. Maybe short rough on the downhill portion to catch the long hitters and give them a downhill lie for their second shot?
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Maybe short rough on the downhill portion to catch the long hitters and give them a downhill lie for their second shot?
:o :o
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Tom, when you're designing holes of this nature, are you cognizant of the possibility that the longer hitters will enjoy a disproportionate advantage?
Absolutely, that's why the entrance to the green includes a feature like the ridge, to make it hard to get a second shot close even if you are playing with a mid-iron. It is only going to be that reachable in downwind conditions [which are the norm], but in those conditions, you are supposed to have to worry about flying it onto the green and having it run off the back and down the bank.
However, there is not much an architect can do if David Elvins' report is accurate that somebody was driving within 30-40 yards of this green ... that's a 410-yard drive!
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Tom, when you're designing holes of this nature, are you cognizant of the possibility that the longer hitters will enjoy a disproportionate advantage?
Absolutely, that's why the entrance to the green includes a feature like the ridge, to make it hard to get a second shot close even if you are playing with a mid-iron. It is only going to be that reachable in downwind conditions [which are the norm], but in those conditions, you are supposed to have to worry about flying it onto the green and having it run off the back and down the bank.
However, there is not much an architect can do if David Elvins' report is accurate that somebody was driving within 30-40 yards of this green ... that's a 410-yard drive!
As far as I could see, a 400 yard drive most likely would be 300 yards of carry, a bounce down the slope into the valley and 100 yards of roll. Knowing that the turbo boost slot is there (and the valley is a very nice feature) and that some small percentage of players can bomb it 300 yards in the air, and that it's down wind, I guess the back tee could have been put back another 30 yards. But, what's the point. There's never going to be a big pro tournament there, and who cares if there is one or two people a day who will hit it down there and think the hole a silly par 5. And, I did like the "hazards", subtle as they were on the approaches and the green.
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no matter what par 5 it is, after a 400 yard drive... it's silly.
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Its probably more like a 450-480 yard drive (and I think I was being conservative, it may have been 20 yards from the front). To put it in context though, I think the tournament was postponed soon after due to high winds, and I know one of the guys can drive it 350 on a still day. Its more a bit of trivia than a regular occurrence. 11 and 14 play in the oppoiste dierction to 12 and 4. So what a wind gives on the par 5s it takes away on the short 4s. When this thread finishes I will start a thread on the best wind at barnbougle.
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Hole #12 Par 4 254 meters (280 yards)
After a fine stretch of down wind holes we are turned once again into the wind for a second short four. It has a little leg to the right along a ridge in the dunes. This part of the second nine plays on top of the dunes for a large part and feels more exposed to the wind. The length of the hole is such that many will feel they have a reasonable chance to drive the green; after all it's only 240 yards to carry the main bunker on a line to the hole and only 260 yards to the front edge.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-12.jpg)
On the tee it's impossible not to be tempted by the shortness of the hole, even when the wind is howling in your face. It takes a strong will to manage the hole. From the tee the hole plays up a ridge to a green that is perched behind a large bunker on the edge of the ridge.
The right side is deadly with the bunkers and a scrubby slope. With the wind in your face any minor fade action on the tee shot will lead to oblivion as the wind turns it into a slice. There appears to be room to the left of the green and a slope that might kick the ball towards the green (but really doesn't. The left side has a knob that's not really in play and a small ridge separating the hole from the 11th fairway. The options are to lay up to the top of the hill and take your chances with a wedge in; or, to try to drive the green.
I pulled driver, not because I was trying to drive the green, but because I thought I was going to need it to get to the top of the hill into the wind. Bad idea. My draw turned into a hook in the wind and went bounding behind the knob and almost all the way across the 11th fairway. Sometimes firm and fast is a pain.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02688-1.jpg)
Now, at this point in the round we had a mini crisis. The wind was blowing so strongly that my wife was almost unable to walk up the hill pulling the cart into the wind. After a brief discussion about having her walk in (declined because it was all the way into the wind and, besides, she never gives up) I ended up pulling two carts on the upwind holes. As a result the photography suffered a little on this hole. (Fortunately David Elvins has come to the rescue with a couple of pictures of the rest of the hole.) Not to mention I made a mash of the hole.
The picture below gives a sense of the size and depth of the main fairway bunker and a scrubby slope to the right of the fairway.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/12a-1.jpg)
The green, as befits a short 4, is very small at around 3000 sq.ft. There are bunkers to the right and behind to catch errant shots. The left side is protected by ridges and swales that effectively direct second shots, or drives away to the left. Those that attempt to drive the green, but miss on the left have no bargain because of the movement in the green surrounds and on the green itself.
For the record, it is possible to recover from the 11th fairway (although I didn't) but it is a blind shot into a quartering wind to a small target with those annoying ridges and swales in front and bunkers or worse behind.
My fuzzy, wind addled recollection of the green is that I twice putted off it into the bunkers. Time to move on quickly to the next hole, although I'd love to play this hole again in more benign wind conditions. I'm sure I could par it. :-[ In the wind this is another "little devil" of the par 4 variety.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/12b.jpg)
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The 12th green is probably the windiest spot on the golf course. We shaped it on my first construction visit to Barnbougle, and when I came back six weeks later to put the finishing touches on it, about two feet of sand had blown off the entire green area -- pretty much wiping it back to flat. The reason the green is so small today is because we had a hard time scrounging up enough sand to build it over again.
As soon as it was done again, we slapped the irrigation in and planted grass on it.
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And, sand still blows out of the bunkers, although not as badly as at St Andrews beach. An added penalty for being in a bunker is the sandblasting you get in the face on an upwind bunker shot.
When you were configuring the bunkers was there any analysis of how you could orient or design them to keep the sand from all blowing out of them?
Looking at the Lost Farm pictures it looks like they have some pretty expansive exposed sand areas. Wonder how they'll keep them in place.
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Bryan:
Actually, from the pictures you've shown, the sand appears to be holding up in the bunkers better than I expected ... or else, they are doing more work on them than I thought. You should see how much work goes into keeping sand in the bunkers at Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes!
We did know it was going to be a problem, and there were places we decided not to put bunkers because of the wind. However, there were also places we put bunkers because we wanted you to be able to find your ball, and we couldn't afford to irrigate all of those areas! Barnbougle was really built on a tight budget.
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Tom,
The tight budget is still somewhat in evidence in the maintenance. I've no idea if they are replenishing the bunkers, but the walls look like they're holding up well. Didn't see any evident erosion. I'm not sure how the sand stays up on the face of that bunker on 12 pictured above.
I don't notice if you caught my comment on what I called "wire grass" back on the 11th hole, but I'm curious to know if that stuff is/was a maintenance/grow in problem? It doesn't seem to affect play, but it sure is noticeable. I've never seen anything like it in my travels.
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Hole #13 Par 3 188 meters (207 yards)
The 13th turns back again with the wind so the length is not too intimidating. From the aerial, it looks fairly straight forward, the two bunkers at the front are not too intrusive. One back left that should be out of play.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-13.jpg)
Looking over from the 12th fairway, the green looks large (and, is) and nestled into the surrounding dunes. The green extends further forward than one might gather from the aerial. Of course, from up here you might be distracted by the backdrop of Anderson Bay and Lost Farm on the head over the river.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02689-1.jpg)
From the tee, the green looks inviting, especially sitting in the dunes and with the wind at your back. But, it is becoming obvious that there is some really serious movement in this green. The slopes suggest that down wind the back left bunker might see a fair amount of action. And, the one short right interferes with landing the tee shot short enough that it can release onto the right side of the green.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02690.jpg)
As you approach the green, the scope and scale of the movement in the green becomes more obvious. This may well be the most topsy-turvy green I have ever seen. In two plays and multiple putting tries on the green, I'm convinced that there are many guaranteed three putts (although others disagree). Suffice to say, if you are on the wrong part of the green from the pin, you will have an adventure.
You can see that the marram grass on the dune in the back has been trimmed back. For good reason; it is easy to bounce a shot through the green and up the bank.
If this green was stimped at 10 or above, it would be unplayable.
It reminds me in retrospect of the Himalayas putting green at St Andrews only built into the side of a fair sized sloping dune.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02691.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/13a.jpg)
Now, the question needs to be asked. Was this green site found or was it manufactured. If it was manufactured, was somebody into the spirits before shaping it. ;) ........................ Just kidding. This is one of the most adventurous greens I have ever seen. A joy to try to understand and play. I think Ian said they spent an hour on it. It deserves that kind of study.
And for your fun and amusement, here is a link supplied by David Elvins to a You-Tube video of one way to play a shot from the back of the green. The video gives a better feeling of the way the green plays than any description or still picture ever can. Now, if only he videographer could have had a more steady hand in the gale force winds ........ ;D Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb4k6gvhEeA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb4k6gvhEeA)
............................................................................................
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The 13th green is alot of fun in that a putt can be played in a large number of ways, yielding varying results. The first day I played here, they sent me off the back nine as a single, however, a foursome beat me to the tee. I couldn't think of a better scenario on my first trip over these links as I got to spend much time around each green playing recovery shots and wild putts.
TK
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If this green was stimped at 10 or above, it would be unplayable.
What do the greens stimp at, at Barnbougle?
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If this green was stimped at 10 or above, it would be unplayable.
What do the greens stimp at, at Barnbougle?
Others might give you an accurate number, but when I have been there they have been 'slow' but always very very firm. No pitch marks and a very wooden sound when you whack your putter into it. The greens are a fescue bent mix which sticks up high but they are the purest rolling slow greens I have played.
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Here are some more pics of 12.
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5217/p5180045.jpg)
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/387/p5180049.jpg)
Also, in relation to 11. I had wedge in there 2 out of 3 plays and I'm not a long hitter. Despite this, it's a tough shot to that green with wedge/9iron as it takes a big bounce if you land in the wrong spot and kicks through.
As for 13, some of the best fun I had on my trip there was about 30-45 minutes I spent with Dave Elvins and two others putting from all sorts of spots, its amazing that everything just seems to work. We got balls close to the pin from anywhere on the green after a bit of thought, but we didn't hole many - I think Dave holed the only long putt in the time we spent messing about on that green.
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This may well be the most topsy-turvy green I have ever seen.
Clearly you haven't played The Lakes after MC's redesign of the 14th green.. I don't know what he was on at the time but I, for one, love it.
;D
Pup
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This may well be the most topsy-turvy green I have ever seen.
Clearly you haven't played The Lakes after MC's redesign of the 14th green.. I don't know what he was on at the time but I, for one, love it.
;D
Pup
Michael
Where have I heard that quote before ? ;)
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Sssh. :D I played there the other day and it reminded me of that quote that quote, sooo I though I'd steal it! :)
;)
Pup
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Hole #13 Par 3 188 meters (207 yards)
Now, the question needs to be asked. Was this green site found or was it manufactured.
Answer: some of both. The green site was that big and had that much tilt and some wild contours in the middle; we modified the wild contours in the middle to try to create some reasonable hole locations. Brian Schneider did the shaping of it, with an assist from the wind.
I do not think the green would become "impossible" if the green speeds were faster; it would just become that much tougher to two-putt if you get above the hole. The difficult thing about the hole is that because it's downwind, and has that ridge just at the front of the green [a natural feature], it is very hard to wind up on the green but short of the hole with your tee shot. You almost have to try to cut an iron shot in there and skip it over the ridge.
Certain hole locations are much harder than others, and I'm sure they sometimes use one they shouldn't at all. The back left location is probably the easiest ... it's a bit hard to get the speed right going up the hill, but that one can be gotten at from any angle. Front right and close to the little ridge through the middle of the green is probably the toughest location ... there's a little shelf mid-right that is almost impossible to get at from the tee, but not so hard to putt to.
I do remember saying to Brian when we built it that we could only get away with this green because we were 10,000 miles from home. If it didn't work out, then the course would likely not have caught on and nobody would bring it up to us! So I guess it has worked out okay. For certain, we were lucky to have a client who would let us build a green this bold and controversial.
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Hole #13 Par 3 188 meters (207 yards)
Now, the question needs to be asked. Was this green site found or was it manufactured.
...............................................
I do remember saying to Brian when we built it that we could only get away with this green because we were 10,000 miles from home. If it didn't work out, then the course would likely not have caught on and nobody would bring it up to us! So I guess it has worked out okay. For certain, we were lucky to have a client who would let us build a green this bold and controversial.
Just out of curiosity, has there been a lot of, or any, controversy?
I agree it's bold, but I didn't feel that it was stupid or over the top. Just interesting and entertaining. If I was playing for big bucks and had never seen it before, I might feel different. However the general reaction I've heard on here is WOW, that's interesting, and how long can we stay on this green and fool around on it. It might even be considered a signature hole. :o
Michael,
No, never been to the Lakes. Maybe Mike was just trying to one-up the wildness from this green (assuming he did it after BD). Architects would never try to one-up their friends and competitors would they? ;)
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This may well be the most topsy-turvy green I have ever seen.
Clearly you haven't played The Lakes after MC's redesign of the 14th green.. I don't know what he was on at the time but I, for one, love it.
;D
Pup
Pup,
The 14th green at the Lakes is very ondulated, but believe me, the 13th at Barnbougle is on a diffeent level still. Photos can't do it justice. I love the green!
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Just out of curiosity, has there been a lot of, or any, controversy?
I was told Peter Thomson had some disparaging remarks about the course in general, and I'm sure that the greens [for which #13 is the poster boy] figured prominently in his assessment. But, no, there hasn't really been any controversy. You only get controversy when you play a big event somewhere, otherwise it's just one opinion at a time.
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(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/13a.jpg)
THAT! is one of the coolest looking holes I have ever seen. WOW
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I just realized I was looking at that picture of the green wrong ... the view is from the back of the green, looking toward the front.
The photographer is high enough above the green that it distorts things a bit ... that back tier is a terrace draining out to the front, and not a bowl. But, you can get a sense of how hard it would be to get a ball to the back right part of the green (far left side in the photo) -- you'd have to fan a shot out to the right, feed down off the slope, and have it settle in the bowl instead of getting up over the contour to the back plateau.
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The first time I played it the pin was in the trough (or bowl, if you want to call it that) back right. My tee shot was on the back tier (which felt bowl like to me). I just couldn't get the putt from there to anywhere near the hole. Trickle it over - need to find the line and it went too far. Try to feed it back off the further slope - need to find a pace and line to make it work. Failed multiple times. Three putt seemed like it was likely to happen 9 times out of 10. Like Ian, I might have needed an hour or so to figure it out. Good thing pace of play is not an issue at BD.
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Bryan:
For a putt like you had, maybe the best shot would be to chip it down into the bowl -- so it didn't break so much from left to right as it raced down the slope, and then break even further toward the front of the green when coming off the slope on the other side. You would have a GIANT backstop behind the pin. Naturally, that would be harder to do the further away from the top of the bowl that you were.
I realize that most people will be aghast that an architect would endorse playing a wedge shot from on the green ... and, no, I was not thinking of that shot when we built the green. But when somebody tells me it's IMPOSSIBLE to get down in two, generally, they are probably not thinking through all the options. The mitigating factor about this green is that it is all contained in a punchbowl. It's not like you ought to putt off the green from one spot to another, and even if you did, most of them would come right back on.
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Tom,
If you could see my short game you'd know that chipping from on the green would likely a bad idea (especially for the green). :-[ But, yes that is an option I didn't think of. I didn't say it was impossible, just that my success rate would be dismally low. I'm sure some people could even sink that putt on occasion. Sure would like to go back and try again. If only I could convince my wife that the Boomerang event would be a good idea.
Vis-a-vis putting off the green, I would report that on the second round, as you can see in the picture above, perversely, I hit it short to the front edge when the pin was on the back tier (where my ball ended up in the first round and would have been a kick in birdie to this pin, no doubt). Putting up the green to the back tier is an exercise in speed control. Sadly, I putted it past the pin and up into the fringe behind the green. And, it didn't come back. ??? Damn wind. Nice pitch from there into the wind that landed and stopped within a couple of feet of the pin. Good wind.
Proof positive that there are many ways to make bogey.
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Pup,
The 14th green at the Lakes is very ondulated, but believe me, the 13th at Barnbougle is on a diffeent level still. Photos can't do it justice. I love the green!
Wow. That last photo of the 13th looks insane, and if your saying even that isn't doing it justice, then it must be the most undulating green in the world!?
Pup
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Michael,
Not even close.
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Sorry if this has been asked before. Where does the play come from? 50% internantional/local?
Thanks .....Anthony
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I vaguely remembered photographing a valley at Barnbougle that eventually became the site for the 13th green and looked through my archives for the file. I think this picture shows what it was prior to construction.
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/davsca/13thgreensite.jpg)
I don’t have any recent images, but this the hole from the tee, taken a little before the course opening.
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/davsca/Barnbougle13.jpg)
I have somewhat of a differing view of the 13th green, in that in my very humble opinion it is overly contoured and difficult to putt on. One experience I had was when the pin was in a front right location. My tee shot was on the green, front left and in the same contour/valley as the hole. The only way I got near the pin was to putt past the hole and allow for it to make a U-turn and come back to the cup. Fortunately I managed to do that.(The first putt didn’t go in, but I got my par).
Various people have commented previously what fun it is to spend an hour working out the green and how to putt on it, but the reality for most golfers is that they arrive at the green and have to putt on the surface with no such background information, and unlike the majority of the contributors here, they don’t have any inclination to spend that time anyway. Not to mention the issue of slow play and the necessity to keep moving. The result is they walk away thinking the 13th is a crazy green. I have heard this type of comment a number of times from friends who have traveled to Tasmania and played Barnbougle.
Personally, I prefer to putt in the general direction of the hole, albeit with the usual slopes and borrows that I have to take in to account to get near the pin. Having to putt past the hole and allow the ball to U-turn and come back to me is not what I want to see.
A contrarian view of this much loved hole I know, but the love of the 13th is not universal, and I guess I am one that doesn’t understand it. A trip to Barnbougle is a pleasure, but the 13th is not a green I look forward to.
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And I thought photographers had some sort of creative bent!
I have some footage of Tom walking around the newly shaped , but yet to be grassed 13th , and explaining to us why the green wouldn't be as severe as say the National in Victoria , because it was just a series of connected bowls...
But depending on the conditions you can get some seriously difficult 2 putts , and I don't mind trying to work out how to tackle them
It just shows accountants are more creative than photographers , I guess...
On another note , I had a large group down to Barnbougle a few months prior to opening to celebrate my 50th bday . I drew up score cards , rated each hole , and named each hole
Although not used a lot these ratings and names have been retained
Hole 13 was called Sitwell Park...
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Pete,
You're absolutely correct.
The first question on any accounting position application is "What is 2 plus 2?" And as you know the correct answer is "Anything you want it to." So naturally, accountants are way more creative than dimwitted photographers!
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Sorry if this has been asked before. Where does the play come from? 50% internantional/local?
I'd be absolutely staggered if more than 10% of play was international.
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Good comments on the 13th green, thanks.
To my eye the green looks fantastic, but then again I love quirky stuff like this. Perhaps its just my perception, but I do find it interesting that a long ball buster 440 yard par 4 with a well protected green would likely not receive near as much criticsm when the overwhelming majority of players would likely be pleased with bogey,( 2 shots, a chip on, and a 2 putt for bogey). Yet when faced with a potential bogey only because the green is severe it becomes far less than desireable. So a hole that is very tough to get a GIR, consequently leading to bogey = OK, and a hole that isn't tough to get a GIR, but still is a tough par due to the green = not OK.
I can't help but wonder if this thinking comes from the "its all right in front of you" and its "very fair" type thinking that comes from our PGA Tour telecasts.
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David:
I am not very surprised to hear there are players who don't appreciate this green [but sorry you are one of them]. After all, the green which inspired this one, Dr. MacKenzie's famous green at Sitwell Park, is long gone due to players who shared your point of view!
But I am glad mine still exists, and glad that it exists in a place where they aren't likely to listen to the conservative view of greens-building too much.
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Whaky greens are controversial/polarizing....they were back in Dr. Mac's days and they still are today.
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Obviously my architecture education is incomplete because I didn't get the reference to Sitwell Park. But, a quick Google search remedied that. I can see from the picture below how Sitwell Park was the inspiration for this green. I see the course still exists. Was it relocated or was this green just "renovated"?
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/SitwellPark.jpg)
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After a slight delay due to Photobucket being down last night, we move on to fourteen.
Hole #14 Par 5 508 meters (559 yards)
In retrospect based on two playings, I wonder about this hole and #11 being so close in the routing and seeming to present similar holes with similar shot values. On my second time around, I misremembered the drive on 11 as the drive on 14 with negative results. The carry bunkers off the tee are significantly further on number 11 than they are here.
From the aerial the back tee provides an angled drive to the fairway with a number of bunkers that need to be carried or avoided followed by a second shot to a green that is somewhat offset over the the left rough.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-14.jpg)
From the tee the drive presents very similarly to number 11. There are four bunkers in the foreground and one on the far side of the fairway on the left. The green is visible over the bunker on the right and it is evident that the fairway is running away from the tee, promising a long drive. The challenge is to pick the line off the tee.
Down wind and with the fairway running fast, the hole plays considerably shorter than its length. Even for players who are not long it can be reachable in two. A bonus in my book.
The left bunker is about 250 yards, so it is definitely in play. The three carry bunkers only require a 220 yard shot and down wind are easily carried. The large right bunker, unlike the one at #11, can be carried by longer hitters, and it does look like it is on a line with the green. But, the fairway topography is such that shots over that bunker are likely to be kicked off into a grove of trees and brush on the right. The best line appears to be over the middle of the the three foreground bunkers.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02692.jpg)
The second shot is across a valley and the corner of the left rough to a green on the far ridge. A shot from the right side of the fairway provides a better angle into the green and a run up shot seems possible, although the rise will kill some of the run. A shot from the left side of the fairway needs to contend with the front left bunker, perhaps requiring an aerial shot or a running hook around the bunker.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02693.jpg)
After the wild undulations of the thirteenth green, the fourteenth green seems positively mundane, although there is some slope to it and a false front. It is easy standing on this green to be distracted by the beauty of the setting looking toward Lost Farm and the sea.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02694.jpg)
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Tom,
I’m pleased too that a green such as the 13th at Barnbougle is able to exist, even if I can be interpreted as having a “conservative view of greens-building”. I think that is how you are describing me in your post, apologies if you’re not. Conservative might be a reasonable way of describing my thoughts, but traditional may well be more accurate.
Assuming that golf course design and construction is an art form, and I don’t see why it shouldn’t be, then, as with all forms of art, progression requires some free thinking from people who are prepared to create something which is outside the current line of thought. I would place you in this area of free thinking souls, and bless you for your sense of adventure.
Please don’t feel sorry that I don’t agree with everything you do, if the majority lauded your work you would probably, by definition, be in the “conservative” or mainstream group of artists/GCAs.
More power to you Tom. When I have the opportunity I will always try to play a Doak course as it’s always a game of discovery. Sometimes it might prick my “conservative” nature, but it is never dull.
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Hole #15 Par 4 321 meters (353 yards)
Turning for the final time into the wind, the long slog home against the wind begins from the farthest eastern end of the course at fifteen tee.
The aerial nicely demonstrates the dilemma of the hole; whether to chance the narrow gap, what I'll call Doak's Alley, on the right of the centreline bunker for a better angle into the green, or to bail out to the left creating a semi-blind and daunting angled approach to the green.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-15.jpg)
The tee presents one of the most pleasant settings in all of golf.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02696.jpg)
The tee shot is much more unsettling than the setting. The direct route to the green is along the upper right side of the fairway through an opening pinched to 20 yards wide by the centreline bunker and the dunes. In the bunker is bad; the marram covered dunes are worse. The reward - a straight on shot up the length of the green.
The centreline bunker is only 230 yards from the tee, but the distance is more daunting being into the wind and uphill a bit. With the wind against, the hole plays much longer than the seemingly manageable 353 yards on the card. For me, it was a full out drive followed by a full out low 3 iron that was rejected by the green. This is a difficult hole, worthy of being the 7th stroke hole. It kind of sneaks up on you and then bites hard.
To the left of the bunker is a vast area of fairway. The far dune looks reachable, but, against the wind would be out of play for all but the longest hitters. From the left the approach shot may be semi-blind over the bunker built into the dune. Worse, there is a steep 10 foot drop off from the front around to the left side of the green. It calls for an aerial shot from an awkward angle into the wind. The further left, and safer, the tee shot, the longer and more blind the second shot.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02697.jpg)
From the right side of the fairway, in the picture below, the challenges of approaching the green are evident. The closely mown bank on the left rejects balls down into a collection area. The dunes and bunkers loom to the right. The green rejects balls off its left side and off the front right. An approach from anywhere left on the fairway requires a very deft touch to carry the bank and avoid overcooking it into the back bunkers or worse, into the dunes.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02698.jpg)
Recovering on the third shot from any miss is a challenge regardless of where the miss is, with each presenting its own unique requirements.
The green is no bargain, sloping from back to front with the wind, and with the potential to run the ball off the left side and front.
Did I mention that this is a difficult hole where many will be left wondering what just happened to them.
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The 15th looks like a very nice hole.
Is the area to the right of the center bunker as wide as it looks? It seems to be about 15-20m wide, correct?
Also is it still possible for a well struck shot from the LHS to hold the green? It looks quite tough from down there..
Pup
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Nice write up of the 15th, Bryan.
There are very very few 350 yard holes in the world that are 'great'. IMO the 15th is one of them.
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Michael,
The fairway on the right is about 18 meters wide at the neck.
I suppose it is possible to hit the green from the left side, but I wasn't able to. Helping a little bit is that it is mostly into the wind, so if you can dial in the correct distance you should be able to stop it.
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I love really good short 4's
It seems to me that most of the classic courses have good short 4's
And Barnbougle has a bunch of short 4's that give you options and make you think your way through the hole
The 15th was named "The Cut" after the waterway to the right which is where you head for if you hit a slice into the wind ( or a cut)
There are 4 options off the tee -
1 . Carry the fairway bunker leaving a simple pitch to the green
2 . Lay up short of the fairway bunker , leaving a short iron straight up the green - albeit semi blind below the bunker
3 . The right landing area - which is elevated and leaves a short iron in with full visibility
4 . The left landing area -which leaves a slightly longer shot in at an angle to the green - and which can be totally blind
This is also one of the really good holes for ladies because the bunker can be carried by a good shot - giving them plenty to think about
But I digress...
I cannot carry the bunker , so option 1 for me is not an option! But long hitters can
I used to try the right fairway , because I am an accurate tee shot and it does reward you with a nice shot in...but I found the tee shot was too risky - there is quite a steep ridge here which kicks the ball left into the bunker and right of the ridge the landing area is very small ,blind to the tee , and surrounded with marram
I would recommend most people lay up short of the bunker - 3 Wood at most off the tee -(Clayts?) - so they can hit up the length of the green and partially see where they are going
However most people go left with driver and have a blind shot in - but depending on the wind this can be a mid to short iron in . You just have to know that left is death...
But the green is not that hard to hit
It is an exciting shot , though...
And part of the round I always look forward to!
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Peter,
Thanks for the thoughts.
I'd have to question whether carrying the bunker is really an option, even for long hitters. If they can clear it (no problem in calm conditions; debatable into strong headwind) it appears to be on a direct line to the bunker built into the ridge. I would think that anything that is able to carry the bunker would easily run out into the next one. They are not that far apart.
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Peter has described the way I would play this hole, if I ever get back there.
Bryan, if you can carry the bunker playing into the wind, there's enough room for the drive to stop. But downwind it's not really an option.
I had to be convinced to put in the central fairway bunker by Mike Clayton and Brian Schneider. I was tempted not to have any bunker in the fairway, just the low ridgeline that separates the high right side from the left. I thought that the right side was so narrow no one would take the risk of going over there, and a bunker would just be forcing everyone way left; but Mike thought that without the bunker, the tee shot would be too simple.
I do agree with Bryan that the second shot is very difficult from the left, because of the narrowness of the green and the prevailing wind.
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I know people who think the 13th green is nothing but a joke - Graham Marsh for one - but it is one of the very few par threes - I can't think of too many others - where you have to control perfectly what the ball does when it hits the ground.You have to hit the right shape, the right trajectory and land it in the right place and then watch it run.
There are obviously others like the North Berwick Redan but this one is the ultimate bit of fun to me.
And that shot varies so much depending on where the pin is cut
The right shot will do what it needs to do to get close and it is the first par three I would play for fun anywhere in the world.
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Tom,
I'm skeptical about stopping the drive over the bunker into the wind. As I measure it on the aerial there's only 20 yards from the back of the centre bunker to the dune bunker. Given it's a 250 yard carry, it seemed unlikely that the ball would stop in 20 yards on firm surfaces even into the wind. In any event, it seems like a very low percentage shot compared to other options.
As to the need for the bunker, I think I'd come down on your side. It makes a difficult hole (in the wind) even more difficult. If the preponderance of days are relatively calm then it adds something to the hole.
Mike,
Although 13 might your first choice for playing a par 3 for fun, how would you feel about it if you were playing a Euro Tour event there? Of course, most everybody who plays there should be playing it for fun.
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Brian,
It's a good question - because hole can be much different beasts with a card in the pocket.
I still think I would reallly enjoy trying to answer the questions it asks - and some would figure it out and some would moan about it.
I don't think the question is that hard to figure out and the shot that answers the question is really fun - no matter whether it was in a tournament or not - and its not like 13 is a hole you are going to have a disaster.
I would much rather play it than 17 at TPC.
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I think of the 17th at Sawgrass as a binary hole. You take the swing, and after a couple of seconds you know that it's highly likely you'll either get par or better or bogey or worse.
The 13th at Barnbougle is more of a continuum without so many outliers. Three seconds after the swing you probably have little idea what your final score will be. After 7 to 10 minutes on the hole you know how it turned out and it's most likely par or bogey.
Whichever you like probably depends on whether you like instant gratification or the more slowly released variety.
I enjoyed both holes. But, Barnbougle is probably more fun for me because it lasts longer.
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Just want to express my thanks for this thread, Bryan.
It's been an awesome 2 weeks! ;D
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You're welcome Alex, but I think the thanks need to go to Tom, Mike, Ian, Peter, David, et al who have contributed great input to the discussion. I've provided a framework; they've provided the insight and colour. For that I am thankful.
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You're welcome Alex, but I think the thanks need to go to Tom, Mike, Ian, Peter, David, et al who have contributed great input to the discussion. I've provided a framework; they've provided the insight and colour. For that I am thankful.
True, how inconsiderate of me!
These threads are my personal favorites, and they only could be that way with everyone's input so thanks to all.
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Hole #16 Par 3 153 meters (168 yards)
We're still continuing into the wind. It would be fair to point out that the layout of the holes is not exactly linear up and down wind. The 16th is in fact maybe a 45* different direction than 15 although I describe both as being into the wind. In fact, the wind is into you on 15, but is pushing a bit to the right. On 16 it is into you but pushing a bit to the the left. By this point in the round I was so battered by the wind that these nuances were lost on me, to the detriment of my score, no doubt.
From the back tees the most noticeable feature is a huge bunker built into a dune that partially obscures the left portion of the green. The other obvious thing of note is the slope of the green. Should you try to hit a cut in and use the slope of the green; or, draw it in and try to stop it at the flag and into the slope. Of course the slightly crossing wind needs to be considered in executing either of those shots. My draw assisted by the wind started nicely before turning into a 30 yard hook. Such things happen when I try to knock down a 4 iron into the wind. And, it probably should have been a 3 iron anyway.
The doubt that was in my mind on this hole was did I have too much club. Playing it as a two club wind seemed dangerous when my ball disappeared over the huge bunker. I figured I'd hammered it into the backing dune. Only to find, to my delight that not only wasn't it not too far but that it fed down to the front left corner of the green. Three putts later it didn't seem so fine.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02699.jpg)
Now, I must give credit once again for the location of the forward tees. How often do you find that the architects have just thrown in forward tees as an afterthought. Well on this hole, not only did they provide a similar look to the tips, on a more manageable scale, but they also put the tee on the highest and most picturesque dune on the property.
Minor complaint though. On the first round we couldn't find the forward tee. Bright guy that I am, I said nah, don't climb up the hill. Who'd put the forward tees way up there. Oooops, found it the second time around.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02703.jpg)
If you can handle the wind, the green is large and reaching it should happen more often than not. But being on is no guarantee of a par. The green is significantly sloped and also has some internal movement to increase the challenge of the putting.
I noticed that the rough behind the green has been cut back which leads me to believe that with a lesser wind in your face it must be relatively easy to go through the green.
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Great write-up on 15, it is one of my favourite holes there.
A few more pics to add.
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3708/p5180057large.jpg)
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6500/p5180059large.jpg)
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5932/p5180060large.jpg)
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1794/p5180063large.jpg)
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Thanks for the additional pictures. The first one suggest to me that the right fairway is more humpbacked than I remember. Looks like drives could be kicked off right into the dunes. Makes that side even riskier.
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3708/p5180057large.jpg)
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the play for me on that hole is to just lay up short of the central bunker, so I didn't consider it too much.
The best golfer I played with there, went right of the bunker with driver and was in postion A
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Thanks for the additional pictures. The first one suggest to me that the right fairway is more humpbacked than I remember. Looks like drives could be kicked off right into the dunes. Makes that side even riskier
Brian,
have a very close look at your overhead photo. there is a lot of 'hidden' fairway out to the right n the driving zone. In andrews picture that you posted i would estimate that there would be an extra 15 yards of fairway that you cant see. a few times i have aimed for the right fairway, hit a decent slice, and been surprised to see my ball n the fairway. there is a lot more room there than you think, standing on the tee.
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also well illustrated by this picture
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1794/p5180063large.jpg)
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Sorry I missed the discussions last week.
I just wanted to add how much I enjoyed the green on the 13th and how every pin has a two putt solution from every corner of the green. Peter proved it to me on the one I could not figure out.
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Tom,
The 16th:
Our group tried different tees and different shots we even tried different recovery shots and even rolled a few by hand. I can honestly say I’m not sure if I fully get the hole. Each of the other threes creates an interesting decision on how to play the hole. On the 16th our group found the most success by simply playing at the back (or back left depending on the tee) since all shots came down onto the middle of the green. All other routes were not worth the risk with such a large backstop to help.
I would love to know what you intended the play to be, or the alternatives for that matter. We struggled to get the ball to feed onto the green from the left gap. They seemed to come up short if hit up top or run through if slightly too far along the ramp in. Was that intended to be used as an alternative route in?
Was there any consideration at any point to place the green higher up in the dunes?
I really enjoyed the entire experience at Barnbougle Dunes, but the 16th left me with questions I wanted to ask you.
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Ian:
I think it's fair to say we struggled with the 16th more than other holes. I haven't had as much chance to play the hole as you have, but I wasn't happy with the lack of release from the high left slot down to the green. We were probably too concerned with the potential for washouts from off the green, and didn't let the slot kick in there fast enough. And it was tough to make good tie-ins on the right, because of the little wet area to the right of the green.
We did not consider alternative locations for the green, as we didn't want to get any further away from the 17th tee than we already were. We did look at other tee locations including one over to the left of the 15th, but that was going to be very blind, and again the little wet area argued against that.
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Tom,
Thanks as always.
I had wondered if the 17th and the 15th played a role, both are great holes.
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I had a shot on the 16th which in many ways summed up my appreciation for the course - the clever design of its green complexes and the often forgotten element of "fun" (which incidently many architects proclaim with the very few who can embrace and deliver it). I struck a 7iron into the breeze and played it safe out to the slope LHS of the green (the RHS looked almost like a wetland). I hit it fair and as I bent down to pick up my tee already contemplating a chip and a couple of putts (perhaps a delay of a few seconds), my partners began to chorus. I looked up to see my ball appear from behind the dune on the left and begin to feed onto the green. After a further few seconds - of which were extremely exhillirating I might add - my ball tracked across the green over the various slopes and eventually settled 6 inches from the hole location middle RHS. The next day I tried again and found the extreme LHS bunker which was dead and the week after I was at the national moonah where I felt the opposite applied with the slopes shaped to almost repell the ball and where the ground game was limited with the reward applied to only those very few of us whom can "screw it back".
Barnbougle Dunes is stunning. It is a mix of clever design coupled with superb agromony and particularly grass selection which fully compliments the intent. Great thread Brian
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Hole #17 Par 4 400 meters (440 yards)
Standing on the tee at the 17, buffeted by the wind, distracted by the beautiful views of dunes and sea, you are quickly given a slap upside your golfing head as you contemplate how to play this hole.
I must say that after 16 holes of playing the back tees that I never felt that I was in over my head length-wise (although at almost 6,800 yards on a par of 71, I should be out of my comfort zone). This hole took me out of my depth. At 440 yards into a three club wind it got me wondering why I was walking back 70 yards to get up the dune to the tips. From one set of tees up it is much more manageable at 326 meters (359 yards).
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-17.jpg)
The following is based on playing the hole into the prevailing brisk breeze. I understand that it would be quite a different hole in calm conditions or with a following breeze. Upwind from the back tee, this hole is a real examination of your golf game. I tried the exam, and failed.
This hole, stands out as perhaps the only hole on the course where there is no safe play off the tee. The challenge/risk isn't left to the second shot. It is staring you in the face on the tee. From the aerial (and not at all visible from the tee) there are essentially two landing areas, one short of the bunkers and another past the bunkers, joined by a 30 yard wide neck of fairway.
From the back tee, it is about 200 yards to reach the fairway and 270 yards to reach the neck of the fairway. In the short landing area the fairway is about 25 yards, widening out to about 45 yards just short of the bunkers. The second landing area past the bunkers is a generous 75 yards wide.
In breezy conditions I don't believe even the long hitters could fly the bunkers. For the vast majority of short to medium hitters the problem is getting to the wider part of the first landing area. With dunes of waving marram grass and the breeze in your face, this is a daunting tee shot. Claustrophobic compared to what has come before.
From the 16 tee, the following picture shows a high level view of the 17th. The 17th tee is about 50 yards down and to the right of this vantage point. From the 17th tee the view is of waving marram grass and what looks to be an impossibly small landing area.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/17crop.jpg)
To set up the second shot the left side of the landing area provides a more open shot, while the right side is blinded by the bunker, albeit providing a shorter shot. The second can be anywhere from a daunting 175 yards to an impossible 215 yards into the wind.
The fairway short of the green is defined by a ridge that runs from far right to short left and plays havoc with second shots that come up short. There are no level lies to be had short, where a lot of shots knocked down by the wind will end up.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02704.jpg)
The complexity and problem of the green are not really revealed from where the second shots are hit. The green is perched up about 4 feet from the fairway and surrounds, and is on a peninsula that extends out of the surrounding dunes at the rear of the green. Any ball that doesn't land on the green is likely to be rejected by the embankment around the green.
Recovery from the closely mown surrounds will require a delicate and creative shot, especially to front pins. It will likely be impossible to get a recovery from left of the green close to any left pin position as the green runs back and right.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/17a.jpg)
The green itself, provides lots of internal movement to add insult to injury at the end of a difficult hole.
For me, this was the most difficult hole on the course, deserving of being the third stroke hole. Under the prevailing winds I think it is much harder than the first stroke hole - #8, and arguably harder than the second stroke hole - #18. As your round draws to a close, your score is likely to be defined by your ability to survive 17 and 18 on the scorecard.
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Bryan:
The hole isn't meant to play as hard as you describe it. You are describing it from the back tee into a three-club wind. From there, it's supposed to be hard ... the hole which separates the men from the boys, like the 16th at Deal or the 17th at St. Andrews. The green is designed with the idea that a lot of people are going to be approaching it with a shortish third shot, so it's okay for there to be contours to separate the good ones from the not so good.
The plateau of the green is natural, and as I mentioned at the turn, finding that green site was key to turning around the whole back nine routing.
I see from your picture that the little dune inside the start of the fairway has still not been converted to fairway. We left it as marram when building the course, but I realized pretty quickly it would be too difficult for most people to carry from where you played the hole. So they've stripped the marram off it, but they should soften it a bit so they can mow it down to fairway height.
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Tom,
You could see my bitterness creeping through as I was separated to the boys side of the ledger. ;D
From the back tees, in calm conditions, I think it would still be a difficult par because of the drive and particularly getting the second on the green.
On my second go-around I played the Boobyalla tees ( one up from the tips and named after a local ghost mining town) which reduces the hole to 326 meters. In the three club wind it was a much more feasible hole, although the bunkers were now in play and the second shot following a good drive (which mine wasn't) would likely be a mid to long iron. So, still a challenge.
In calm conditions, from the Boobyalla tees, there would be a lot more strategic choice off the tee. The second shot would be a short iron and the green defenses would be an interesting challenge.
..........................
One other factor that I didn't mention is that playing the hole late in the day entails playing into the setting sun. Which, at least I, find more difficult. But, I guess that was inevitable once the routing decision was made to go west off the first tee. Any particular thinking on routing the first nine to the west and the second to the east?
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Bryan:
As I mentioned before, the decision to go west off the first tee was mostly to keep from playing eight straight holes into the wind in the middle of the round.
When you have a clubhouse in the middle of an east-west oriented golf course with returning nines, you are screwed one way or the other ... either you play into the sun off the first tee, or up the 18th. I don't like either, but I don't really have a preference between them.
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17 looks like a wonderful hole. I absolutely love that drop off the the left hand side.
I can't wait to see the 18th.
Pup
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Brian
I am a lot biased , but I think the 17th is a really really good finishing hole
Yes , if you play it into a very strong wind the tee shot is difficult , however a lot of different teeing grounds were built , so that there is an appropriate tee for all conditions - I think there were 11 originally built but we lost one to erosion...
I am a short hitter and my very best drives only get out around 220 metres , yet I can play off the back tees in mild conditions .
And I am always looking for an angle to make things interesting for participants in the charity event I run - the tees you play off are dictated by your handicap -and I try to set up the course different each day - so I was considering placing the back markers off the high 16th tee to play 17 if the conditions were benign . You should have heard the carry on from the low markers!
So I went up to the 16th tee , hit the fairway with a foot to spare , 3 wood to the front edge , chip and putt = par
However we did have some wind the next day and I never used it
Having said that most golf on this hole is from the terra cotta and blue tees . The normal punter on these tees has decisions to make about flying the bunkers right , going safe out left and leaving a longer shot in , or trying to hug the right bunker and stay central .
It is always an interesting shot.
And I love that very natural dynamic green with so many pin positions of interest
Last year my partner and I managed to make the semi final of the abovementioned pairs tournament , and we came to the 17th tied and with 30 spectators watching the fun
I had the pin in the bowl on the right , and my approach somehow scurried up the slope behind the pin and stopped precariously on the edge of the back tier
There was no way I could get such a crucial putt to stop near the pin , so after some creative decision making , amused the crowd by facing almost entirely away from the flag and hitting away and slightly sideways so that the ball slowly crept around and down the bowl near the pin .You just are not asked these sort of questions at most courses!
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Peter,
I agree it's a really good finishing hole. I guess more than anything that I was lamenting my own failure to be able to cope with it from the back tees in difficult wind conditions. In the conditions and playing the tips, I should have accepted that bogey would be a decent score. My only complaint, and it's not a criticism of the hole, is that I didn't have a reliable shot that I could count on to get off the tee. There was no safe play to bail out and accept bogey. After a lost ball to the right, I was able to triple bogey it. When I played it a second time from the next up tee, I was able to keep it in play primarily because I was 70 yards closer to the fairway and make a routine bogey.
In fairness, when the fella in the shop sent me out, he inquired about my handicap and suggested I could play the back tees, but also suggested playing the upwind holes from the Boobyalla tees, one up from the tips. Foolishly I kept to the back tees and was reasonably successful until the 17th. I did notice that even the professional scores at the Moonah Classic ballooned seriously when they played in 30 mph winds on Friday and Saturday, I think it was. So, that gave me some comfort about my own failings in the wind.
But, no complaint about the hole really. It is a good testing finishing hole in either stroke or match play. I'd hate to be standing on that back tee in the wind with a match on the line, though.
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Bryan:
As I mentioned before, the decision to go west off the first tee was mostly to keep from playing eight straight holes into the wind in the middle of the round.
When you have a clubhouse in the middle of an east-west oriented golf course with returning nines, you are screwed one way or the other ... either you play into the sun off the first tee, or up the 18th. I don't like either, but I don't really have a preference between them.
Tom,
Interesting comment as to the prevailing winds. When I played Jack Nicklaus's Painted Valley in Park City this was exactly the case. After playing the 1st 5 holes downwind and downhill with the prevailing wind, you play 8 straight holes (6-13) into the wind, 6 of which play uphill, and its an absolute ball-buster. To boot it didn't help that the winds were stronger than normal that day.
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Bryan:
As I mentioned before, the decision to go west off the first tee was mostly to keep from playing eight straight holes into the wind in the middle of the round.
When you have a clubhouse in the middle of an east-west oriented golf course with returning nines, you are screwed one way or the other ... either you play into the sun off the first tee, or up the 18th. I don't like either, but I don't really have a preference between them.
Yes, I remember now that you'd mentioned the 8 hole stretch into the wind if the course was routed the other way. I agree that would be worse than playing into the sun coming home. As an afternoon golfer I prefer to have the closing holes not going west, but sometimes on a particular site it is unavoidable.
It does remind me of two other windy courses, Nairn and Castle Stuart. Nairn, as you know goes out against the prevailing wind. In the two times I've played there, the wind has destroyed my round by the time I'm 9 holes in. But unavoidable there because the clubhouse is at the downwind end of the property. Castle Stuart has the clubhouse in the middle and the course was routed similar to Barnbougle, starting out for a few holes into the wind and coming home into the wind. Also coming home into the setting sun. The wind trumps the setting sun.
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Bryan:
Some guys PREFER the 18th to play into the setting sun, because it will look good for TV cameras looking backward from the 18th green. Pete Dye told me this is the reason that the 18th at TPC at Sawgrass plays to the west. It's also true of Pebble Beach, though of course they didn't have TV when they built Pebble Beach.
This was not a consideration for me at Barnbougle ... they aren't likely to play a big event there. But I would not be surprised if Mark Parsinen wanted it that way at Castle Stuart for that reason.
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The journey of discovery and delights is almost over as we head to:
Hole #18 403 meters (443 yards)
The last hole is, following #17, another challenging long par 4 into the prevailing wind. The claustrophobic tee shot of #17 is left behind in favour of the wide open expanses of the 18th fairway. The fairway is a generous 65 yards wide although it does drop off to the left and is hemmed in on the right by the grass covered dunes.
An interesting feature of the tees is that they branch off of either side of the central pathway providing a variety of not only distances, but also of angles to the fairway.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/BD-18.jpg)
Perhaps not obvious from the pictures is a gully that crosses the fairway around 150 to 200 yards off the tee. To get to the top of that ridge into the prevailing wind requires a carry of maybe 220 yards - a fairly hefty carry against the wind for most mere mortals. If the tee is on the left side of the path the shot more directly down the fairway with a bit of a bend to the right. If the tee is right of the path (as it is in the picture below) then the angle of attack to the fairway is more acute.
There is a bit of a trough on the right side of the fairway to reward the adventurers who want to flirt with the marram covered dunes to achieve a more direct and shorter line to the green. Any draw is likely to be pushed by the wind across the fairway ridge back towards the tee and down the embankment to the left.
Under less windy conditions the drive would be more straight forward leaving the challenge of the hole to the green.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02705.jpg)
If the ridge is not cleared on the drive, then getting home in two is not likely possible against the wind. The shot is also blind with no artifacts to indicate line.
The fairway has two ridges angling across it. These can impact shots that come up short or very short of the green, providing awkward lies.
The green is composed of three lobes with bowls, troughs and ridges. Approaching different pin positions from the fairway might suggest different ways to get close. Can you bounce it off the ridge to get it close to a front left pin position; or, run it up the front embankment to a middle pin; or, fly the green and let it feed to the back right.
This is another green with many entertaining putts if you're not in the same section as the pin. My wife was left giggling when she pulled her putt from the front of the green to the pin position in the picture, ten feet too far left and 20 feet too far only to watch it circle a bowl and bank off the back of the green and come from behind the hole to within a foot. I didn't see that line. ;D What a way to finish.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02707.jpg)
The game is done. The measure of a good course? The desire to walk to the first tee to try it all over again. After flying 26 hours half way round the world there is always the possibility of a serious let down when you get to one of the courses that are so beloved on here. It happened to me when I played Pebble some years ago - large expectations and then a big let down. It didn't happen here at Barnbougle Dunes.
Hopefully, some time, we can return, he says wistfully.
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Somewhat off topic, but there are many other beautiful places in Tasmania besides BD. Here are three pictures that I liked. If you like hiking the National Parks are wonderful.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02648.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02724.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02725.jpg)
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18 is a strong finishing hole
I particularly like the approach shot with the beach on the right and a green with some very entertaining pin spots
For me it is often a long shot in , but the line of approach and indeed the type of shot attempted varies with the pin
In the early days the entire right side of the fairway was a thin strip of marram grass then a sandy beach which was in play - it was fun to find your wide ball on the beach and attempt the heroic shot back to the green
These days the beach has almost entirely grown over with marram
One point of contention for me is the tee shot
I have shared many a red with Clayts on this issue and agree to disagree
From the back tees the hole is almost straightaway , and partially blind - but it is wide , directly into the prevailing wind , and you can see where you are meant to go - no problem there!
Most golfers however play off the terracotta or blue tees which are shorter but 50 metres right of the back tees
When originally shaped you could see a sliver of fairway from these tees - enough to give you a sighter , and also see the top of the flag to show your ultimate destination
However heavy weather at grow in stage moved enough sand so that with the consequential growth of marram on top of the sand the high point on the corner was high enough to block out any sight of the fairway landing area over the hill or indeed the flag
So these forward tees have an almost totally blind tee shot at an angle to the fairway with no sighters , prevailing wind into and across , and marram both left and right blind .
Depending on conditions it can be quite a difficult shot to hit the fairway even for those who know where they are going - for Joe Public it means lost ball too often in my view .
I reckon it is the weakest tee shot on the course from the terra cotta , and detracts from a very good hole in other respects
I have no issue with blind tee shots as such and acknowledge that many of the great courses like County Down have more than their share - but not too many would play diagonally blind across the wind and fairway with death both sides if you miss...
I am not alone in this view - I have hosted many with golfing or design credentials around Barnbougle , and it is often a hot topic after the round .
But what a lovely finish with a challenging approach and a fun green
Brian
Is the 19th hole next?
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I found the tee-shot from the tips on 17 to be incredibly intimidating. I'm not a long bomber, but I'd say I hit it longer than your average player, but I am absolutely no chance of reaching the fairway from the tips into a strong prevailing wind. I guess I should just play from the forward tees, but apart from that - love the hole.
Regarding the ridge on 18, these pics show the severity.
(http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6594/p5180083.jpg)
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5008/img0322l.jpg)
Here is a pic from the tee
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9897/p5180080.jpg)
and a couple of pics from behind the green
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7942/p5170008.jpg)
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5159/img0384b.jpg)
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This occurred to me the first time I played Barnbougle, hopefully Tom or Mike can answer it. Did it ever come into consideration to make 18 a par five and site the green in the natural amphitheatre beneath the massive dune beyond the club house towards the beach. From a distance it just looked to me like an amazing site for a green.
18 is a strong finishing hole
I particularly like the approach shot with the beach on the right and a green with some very entertaining pin spots
For me it is often a long shot in , but the line of approach and indeed the type of shot attempted varies with the pin
In the early days the entire right side of the fairway was a thin strip of marram grass then a sandy beach which was in play - it was fun to find your wide ball on the beach and attempt the heroic shot back to the green
These days the beach has almost entirely grown over with marram
One point of contention for me is the tee shot
I have shared many a red with Clayts on this issue and agree to disagree
From the back tees the hole is almost straightaway , and partially blind - but it is wide , directly into the prevailing wind , and you can see where you are meant to go - no problem there!
Most golfers however play off the terracotta or blue tees which are shorter but 50 metres right of the back tees
When originally shaped you could see a sliver of fairway from these tees - enough to give you a sighter , and also see the top of the flag to show your ultimate destination
However heavy weather at grow in stage moved enough sand so that with the consequential growth of marram on top of the sand the high point on the corner was high enough to block out any sight of the fairway landing area over the hill or indeed the flag
So these forward tees have an almost totally blind tee shot at an angle to the fairway with no sighters , prevailing wind into and across , and marram both left and right blind .
Depending on conditions it can be quite a difficult shot to hit the fairway even for those who know where they are going - for Joe Public it means lost ball too often in my view .
I reckon it is the weakest tee shot on the course from the terra cotta , and detracts from a very good hole in other respects
I have no issue with blind tee shots as such and acknowledge that many of the great courses like County Down have more than their share - but not too many would play diagonally blind across the wind and fairway with death both sides if you miss...
I am not alone in this view - I have hosted many with golfing or design credentials around Barnbougle , and it is often a hot topic after the round .
But what a lovely finish with a challenging approach and a fun green
Brian
Is the 19th hole next?
Peter, from memory the 18th fairway is very wide, and hitting at it from that angle would only serve make it play even wider. Although it is somewhat across and into the prevailing winds, they are off the right which would help straighten out the slices of the majority of golfers who'd choose to play from the forward tees. It is a very strong finish from the back, last time I was there I hit a solid drive that only barely flew the crest of the hill and still had a 2 iron into the green.
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Trent:
I did consider at one time putting the green for a par-3 in the bowl at the end of the beach which you describe.
However, I never considered playing a longer hole to there ... everything in front of the bowl was BEACH when we were building the course. Indeed, all of the 18th fairway was a raw dune of beach sand which had blown up fairly recently. It took a fair amount of manure to enable us to grow grass there. The entire time we were building the hole, I was secretly afraid we would not be able to stabilize it; I kept thinking of Tom Mead or Dave Wilber shaking their heads at the idea of it. But that was the first hole we planted, and when it started to knit in, I knew we would be home free.
The last time I played the hole (five years ago now) I hit my driver onto the beach and a 4-iron onto the green from there. Sorry to hear that is not likely to be possible anymore.
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Andrew,
Thanks for the additional pictures. The second and fifth ones seem to have errors in them and will only partially load.
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18 is a strong finishing hole
I particularly like the approach shot with the beach on the right and a green with some very entertaining pin spots
For me it is often a long shot in , but the line of approach and indeed the type of shot attempted varies with the pin
In the early days the entire right side of the fairway was a thin strip of marram grass then a sandy beach which was in play - it was fun to find your wide ball on the beach and attempt the heroic shot back to the green
These days the beach has almost entirely grown over with marram
One point of contention for me is the tee shot
I have shared many a red with Clayts on this issue and agree to disagree
From the back tees the hole is almost straightaway , and partially blind - but it is wide , directly into the prevailing wind , and you can see where you are meant to go - no problem there!
Most golfers however play off the terracotta or blue tees which are shorter but 50 metres right of the back tees
When originally shaped you could see a sliver of fairway from these tees - enough to give you a sighter , and also see the top of the flag to show your ultimate destination
However heavy weather at grow in stage moved enough sand so that with the consequential growth of marram on top of the sand the high point on the corner was high enough to block out any sight of the fairway landing area over the hill or indeed the flag
So these forward tees have an almost totally blind tee shot at an angle to the fairway with no sighters , prevailing wind into and across , and marram both left and right blind .
Depending on conditions it can be quite a difficult shot to hit the fairway even for those who know where they are going - for Joe Public it means lost ball too often in my view .
I reckon it is the weakest tee shot on the course from the terra cotta , and detracts from a very good hole in other respects
I have no issue with blind tee shots as such and acknowledge that many of the great courses like County Down have more than their share - but not too many would play diagonally blind across the wind and fairway with death both sides if you miss...
I am not alone in this view - I have hosted many with golfing or design credentials around Barnbougle , and it is often a hot topic after the round .
But what a lovely finish with a challenging approach and a fun green
Brian
Is the 19th hole next?
With the current configuration of grass on the right, it's hard to imagine only a thin strip of Marram grass there. I guess the aerial view was taken long enough ago that the thin strip can be seen at least towards the tee.
I'm not sure I get your debate with Clayts about the drive though. I only played it twice, the first time from the back left tee and the second from the forward terra cotta right tee hard up against the dune. Andrew's picture, below, reflects what I remember of the back tee, and what you said about it - straight on and partially blind. The marram to be carried off the tee looks intimidating. The view from the terra cotta tees in my picture doesn't look anything like what you describe as the view. The fairway was clearly visible and the cottages can be used for alignment. Is there another terra cotta tee that I'm missing? So, I didn't view the drive from either tee as weak.
The forward tee caused me just as much grief since my natural shot is a draw and the slightly crossing wind and ridges directed my ball across the fairway and down into the scrub. A better shot than Mr. Doak's onto the beach, I would have thought, but then he could reach the green and I couldn't. Maybe the beach should be restored so that we could try the beach strategy for the hole.
Anyway, I had no issue with the forward tee I played.
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9897/p5180080.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02705.jpg)
By 19th hole, if you mean the watering hole, I'll meet you there next time I come (I hope).
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/DSC02445.jpg)
.....................................................
Ooops, sorry, wrong course. ;D
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Tom D, Clayts,
Was it ever considered to put the 18th tee left of the 17th green close to the beach?
THe 18th tee shot as it exists is possibly one of the worst on the course and a diagonal carry from close to the beach could have had potential, both strategically and visually.
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David:
Are left and right backwards down there? I assume you mean to the right.
We did build a tee on the right, very near the top of the bluff down to the beach. It was constantly being buried by sand drifts from the beach during grow-in, and I'm not sure if it survived or not, but I assumed that was the tee which Peter Wood was talking about.
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Tom, what were the main differences in the co-design process of Barbougle with Clayton, compared to Sebonack with Nicklaus?
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Shane:
I've described the process earlier in this thread (on page 3 or 4).
The main difference between the process at Barnbougle Dunes (or at Old Macdonald, or any other course I've worked on) vs. Sebonack, is that on all the others, I've had the final say on what gets built. At Barnbougle, Michael was welcome to contribute as many ideas as he wanted to, and he contributed quite a few; but if he didn't convince me of his line of thinking, we stuck with my idea and there were no hard feelings. [Honestly, though, I can't remember a hole where we really disagreed ... Michael and I had been friends for 3-4 years prior to construction, and we were pretty much on the same page philosophically.]
At Sebonack, if Jack and I couldn't agree on a hole, we had agreed to keep changing the hole in question until we were both happy with it. It was either that, or let Michael Pascucci choose between our ideas, which would have put Michael in a very difficult spot. But neither Jack nor I would give up control to the other, and Michael had set up the contracts so that neither of us had the final say. I doubt I would work under those terms again ... even when we were getting along great, there was always the concern that tension was just around the corner.
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David:
Are left and right backwards down there? I assume you mean to the right.
Left, looking from the clubhouse. Is that not how you decribe things in America? ;)
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The Barnbougle Dunes website has some new aerials posted in their blog, taken by golf photographer Gary Lisbon.
http://www.barnbougledunes.com.au/blog/?attachment_id=154
(http://www.barnbougledunes.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Barnbougle_11Aerial121317_6670.jpg)
(http://www.barnbougledunes.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Barnbougle_15Aerial_6674.jpg)
(http://www.barnbougledunes.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Barnbougle_CHPano_6664.jpg)
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I am lucky enough to be a regular visitor to Barnbougle, and have played in most conditions off most tees, I agree with Peter's comments in regard to the 18th tee - if you are able to achieve the length due to either your golf or the breeze, it plays and sets up much better.
I also experienced it as did Tom in the early days when the Beach was "in play", and I cannot think of a more thrilling shot for those tradiotnally minded to play the ball as it lies off the beach sand up and back onto the fairway, or even have a crack at the green.
It would be great to see the re-implementation of the beach in removing some of the Marrum, but assume that would be a massive task.
Peter
What would be required for you to be able to move pin positions more regularly for those that stay more than 1 night?
With such awesome greens and so many fun and interesting pin postions, it is the only thing I can ever fault.
The green keepers spend time on the course filling divots, perhaps you could supply sand buckets and then spend that saved time moving pins.... :)
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Brett:
Not moving cups so often is not a question of saving labor ... it's that the fescue greens don't heal over an old cup as quickly, so if there is not a lot of daily traffic to wear out the area around the hole, it's better for the grass to leave the cup where it is for a second day.
That said, it would be a shame to spend 2-3 days there and see the same hole locations throughout. Perhaps they should go to the old system of keeping TWO holes on each green, and just alternating back and forth between them.
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Is this going to be the case at Old Mac as well?
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Tom,
Ideally, the nominated day for changing the hole location would be Sunday as most people are often there for a weekend and get the same hole locations both days.
I've been down 3 or 4 times now for a toal of 9 days, and only seen 3 pins on each green in total!
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Is this going to be the case at Old Mac as well?
Jud:
Unlikely. Partly because an American management company would never do something like that, but mostly because Old Macdonald will do 200 rounds a day, which causes a lot more wear around the hole.
I think in the winter months the hole locations in Bandon are changed less frequently, only every 2-3 days depending on traffic.
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Hi all,
I was fortunate to spend a couple of days last week along with 50 other Superintendents from around the country at an industry function sponsored by Toro. We played Barnbougle Dunes Thursday and Lost Farm Friday in a north-east 1 - 2 club wind. Both courses were in fantastic condition with the fescue running firm. I didn't get to ask Phil what speed the greens were, but they were certainly fast enough and rolling pure.
Well done to all involved for a fantastic playing experience. Bryan - I hope you don't mind me posting a couple of photos in your thread.
Lost Farm 1st.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/Barnbougle/DSC01545.jpg)
Barnbougle 10.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/Barnbougle/DSC01556.jpg)
Barnbougle 7.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/Barnbougle/DSC01583.jpg)
Lost Farm 5.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/Barnbougle/DSC01602.jpg)
Lost Farm 18.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/Barnbougle/DSC01616.jpg)
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Lost Farm has matured nicely by the looks of things.
Is BD10 the most under-appreciated hole on the entire property?
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Looks to be in pretty good condition for a course someone told me was dreadful a few weeks ago.
I knew they were wrong but its hard to insist when you have not seen it for a few months. Time for another fix.
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Lost Farm has matured nicely by the looks of things.
Is BD10 the most under-appreciated hole on the entire property?
It is a fantastic green and one of the stand outs on the course with the variety of pin placements and different shots, and skill, required. More so on days like ours when it was playing into the wind and uphill.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/Barnbougle/DSC01585.jpg)
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Brett,
No, I don't mind at all. Feel free to add more if you like. Brings back good memories.
I thought the second shot and green at BD #10 was really brilliant. It really messed with my depth perception. And, it played just as well downwind when I was there.
How does #7 play with the wind. It was a (short) brute into a strong headwind.
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Bryan,
7 is very interesting down-wind, you have about a square meter on the front of the green to land the ball. 8 was a par 5.5 though!
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Scott,
I agree - 10 is an excellent hole. As Bryan says the second shot is a cracker, however the simple strategy of the tee shot is what won me over.
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An aerial photo courtesy of (or maybe not) from Airliners.net:
http://www.airliners.net/photo//2161602/L/&sid=dad507a821be4d914c64a276ee7cdc87 (http://www.airliners.net/photo//2161602/L/&sid=dad507a821be4d914c64a276ee7cdc87)
(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/2/0/6/2161602.jpg)