Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Paul_Turner on August 01, 2009, 10:27:31 PM
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This website follows the "restoration" at Toronto Golf Club: http://www.tdigolf.com/blog.aspx
Although it isn't a restoration because the course never looked like this.
Predictably, the bunker work looks be very similar to the new Hawtree work at Sunningdale Old. It is in a Colt style, but just not what he did at Toronto or even Sunningdale Old for that matter. It's all much more Colt 1925 than 1911!
The 11th green is supposed to have been moved left, but I can't make it out on the photo. The 15th we know is also being shifted and they are supposed to be replicating the green contours at a new site. Not sure how that will work out.
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I'm wondering if any of the Canadian GCAers can pinpoint how far the 11th green has been shifted? It's reported to have been laser matched to the original, so perhaps the hole won't play much differently? But why was it moved in the first place?
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/11%2017%20for%20blog.JPG)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010524%20for%20blog.JPG)
Here's the bunker work....much fancier that the original work:
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010507blog.JPG)
Meanwhile 3000+ miles away The Burma Road is being changed by Ernie Els and Co.
Recognize the style? Variety is the spice.
(http://www.wentworthclub.com/_img/pics/PickwickP_0597_1.jpg)
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Paul,
How many Colt courses have that amount of grass coming down to meet the sand edge? I cannot think of any Colt courses that have that style of bunkering.
I just don't understand what is being done in both those bunker pictures. I remember seeing the same style on the new bunkering at Sunningdale.
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The redesign of the bunkers at Toronto is very similar to the recently 'refurbished and relocated' ones at Luffenham Heath a James Braid designed course (Rutland UK) the work was carried out by Hawtree as well.
To me the bunkers are very un-Braid-like - My general feeling is that its Hawtree's interpretion of a old style course rather than a Colt or a Braid style course. Some of them are unfair with some crazy lies (downhill ones!) and the depth of the sand was inconsitent due to the shape/slope of the bunkers.
From the bigger picture some areas of the LH has improved but I feel in some respects it has lost its originality and old fashioned feel. I hope Toronto is not going into a similar direction.
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http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31071.0/
Previous topic re: Luffenham Heath - some pics showing steepness of the sand faces and the repetitively refurbished 'wiggly' shaped bunkers
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Paul -- the change is because of safety. At least that's how members were sold on it. Interesting that an associate, a member since the 1970s, can not recall a single issue on the hole. And do we honestly think it'll play the same? New bunkers and newly relocated green? Come on -- this isn't a restoration, and I'm beginning to think that Hawtree (whose original work at Tarandowah I'm very fond of...) doesn't do restoration. He interprets and rebuilds.
Anyway, the green was shifted maybe 15 yards to the left.
I'm wondering if any of the Canadian GCAers can pinpoint how far the 11th green has been shifted? It's reported to have been laser matched to the original, so perhaps the hole won't play much differently? But why was it moved in the first place?
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/11%2017%20for%20blog.JPG)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010524%20for%20blog.JPG)
Here's the bunker work....much fancier that the original work:
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010507blog.JPG)
Meanwhile 3000+ miles away The Burma Road is being changed by Ernie Els and Co.
Recognize the style? Variety is the spice.
(http://www.wentworthclub.com/_img/pics/PickwickP_0597_1.jpg)
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Here's Colt in his 1913 report:
"The banks of some of the bunkers can be easily modified, and if 'torn' out of the hills and natural undulations made, will look more natural. The sand can be added so as to give a good effect by allowing it to 'splash' up against the banks and look as if it had been blown by the wind, and the margins can be made quite irregular and rough,"
So why wasn't this approach used? Those traps on the 10th are built into natural mounds/hills and could have easily been "torn out".
Why the finicky shaping and grass down the face?
The "torn out" style was typical of Colt pre WW1. He writes the same comments on "tearing out" ridges to form bunkers at Toronto, Hamilton and Pine Valley. Fairly simple shapes, almost triangular in many cases, but rugged outlines.
And of course the 8th at St George's Hill was the ultimate torn out bunker.
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Rob - what was deemed to be unsafe about the old 11th green? Was it felt that you couldn't see golfers on the green?
I have played the course several times in the last few years and the bunkers at TGC were kind of blah typical 1950s-60s style- generally shallow and oval shaped that wouldn't excite a "bunker fetishist". In addition many of the fairway bunkers were far outside of the line of play and were several yards into the rough. Given the fact that several of the other clubs in the city have recently gone through bunker restorations (St Georges, Weston, Rosedale and Scarboro to name four) perhaps the club felt that it should do the same.
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Colt's "torn out" bunkers pre WW1 at St George's Hill and St Cloud. He took photos of these courses with him when traveling back to North America in 1913.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/SGH8th.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/StCloud-1.jpg)
Wayne
I'm assuming they were convinced that the 12th tee is too close to the 11th green?
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Paul,
How many Colt courses have that amount of grass coming down to meet the sand edge? I cannot think of any Colt courses that have that style of bunkering.
I just don't understand what is being done in both those bunker pictures. I remember seeing the same style on the new bunkering at Sunningdale.
Brian and Ben
Here's an example with consecutive holes on one course, Belvoir Park:
The 7th with a new Hawtree green complex with its 3 mounds behind and the new bunkers.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/Belvoir7thsmall.jpg)
The 8th a Colt original:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/Belvoir8th.jpg)
Which is the more graceful?
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Paul,
Bloody Hell! (excuse the language) - Hawtree has done a very similar work to the 8th and 10th holes at Luffenham Heath which do not resemble the older and more graceful Braid greens. There is too much repetitive mounding in the surrounds as well as too many slopes on the greens rather than subtle slopes.
I would go for the Colt original and restore the bunkers like you have described earlier in this thread.
There are two different approaches - restore or refurbish which also makes me how much of the original Mackenzie holes at Lahinch that Hawtree have restored.
Another example would be 17th at Royal Birkdale which is out of character with the other remaning 17 greens.
At the newly restored Royal Dublin the bunkers don't look 'Coltish'
This makes me question whether Hawtree is a good golf course restoration architect.
Ben
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Apparently the issue with 11 was the proximity to the 12th tee -- not that I ever thought there was an issue.
As for the bunkering -- I agree a job was needed. But why not go for something original looking?
Rob - what was deemed to be unsafe about the old 11th green? Was it felt that you couldn't see golfers on the green?
I have played the course several times in the last few years and the bunkers at TGC were kind of blah typical 1950s-60s style- generally shallow and oval shaped that wouldn't excite a "bunker fetishist". In addition many of the fairway bunkers were far outside of the line of play and were several yards into the rough. Given the fact that several of the other clubs in the city have recently gone through bunker restorations (St Georges, Weston, Rosedale and Scarboro to name four) perhaps the club felt that it should do the same.
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Paul
Have you been able to figure out what Hawtree is going for? Is there a particular Colt style or period he seems to be repeating over and over again, or did he just make it up? For example the Ross restoration architects seem to repeat the grass faced bunker he used on some courses in the teens and twenties.
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Wayne
I'm assuming they were convinced that the 12th tee is too close to the 11th green?
I don't remember them being that close. If I remember correctly both the 11th green and 12th tee are on the crest of a hill that sort of leads up to the clubhouse. But I seem to remember lots of trees to the right of the 11th to block the 12th tee and I remember a good 20-30 yards of distance between them Certainly I have seen many other courses with much tighter greens and tees.
Certainly the 18th tee is much more of a danger spot given that the 17th is about a 230yd par 3 and folks are hitting a lot of club to that hole.
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Wayne
I'm assuming they were convinced that the 12th tee is too close to the 11th green?
I don't remember them being that close. If I remember correctly both the 11th green and 12th tee are on the crest of a hill that sort of leads up to the clubhouse. But I seem to remember lots of trees to the right of the 11th to block the 12th tee and I remember a good 20-30 yards of distance between them Certainly I have seen many other courses with much tighter greens and tees.
Certainly the 18th tee is much more of a danger spot given that the 17th is about a 230yd par 3 and folks are hitting a lot of club to that hole.
Wayne
The 12th tee was about 15 yards from the now defunct, original green (edge). So pretty close, but as you state, the tee is well guarded by trees.
Plus, London courses like Addington and Sunningdale Old must have half a dozen tees and greens as close or closer (although perhaps this should make me worried!)
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Paul
Have you been able to figure out what Hawtree is going for? Is there a particular Colt style or period he seems to be repeating over and over again, or did he just make it up? For example the Ross restoration architects seem to repeat the grass faced bunker he used on some courses in the teens and twenties.
Tom
I think it's Hawtree's own interpretation of what an old style heath bunker should look like. I don't think they're always bad.... but the two bunker styles below could be interchangeable and so we're getting less variety.
The first is St George's Hill 11th (Sean's pic) and the other is Luffenham Heath 7th:
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ST%20GEORGES%20HILL/100_4177.jpg?t=1242294879)
(http://www.luffenhamheath.co.uk/Course/homepicturefull.jpg)
And even Sunningdale's new ones are pretty similar. Although they are attractve and hopefully will roughen up with the heather plants.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/Sunningdale10th.jpg)
I think the Toronto bunkers will be similar too. But perhaps curvier still...looking at those pics on the blog. When I first saw them, the Colt and Co bunkers I was reminded of were Hirono's!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/Hirono18th.jpg)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010507blog.JPG)
Or perhaps Cuddington? Which is almost 20 years later than Toronto.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/Cuddington15_12.jpg)
Colt and Co could did loads of different styles, not just one. Some were much fancier but it was course specific (and tended to be later):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/hm1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/misc/BH18th.jpg)
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Paul
Those bunkers at Sunningdale and St. Georges Hill are horrible. Colt has to be rolling in his grave.
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I still say that the 18th tee has more of a safety issue, especially when you consider that it is a 222 yard hole - I hit 3 wood into this green.
If I remember correctly You are generally hitting a mid-iron into 11 - it is a 407 yard hill so assuming a 240 yard drive that leaves 167 - uphill so add a club and that is a 5 iron for me.
Here are some photos from Google maps indicating what I mean:
17th Green and 18th tee:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3589/3794027664_3e7b89e5c6.jpg)
11th Green and 12th tee:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2483/3793210069_8098f6c230.jpg)
FYI - here is the Google maps link to Toronto GC. http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=golf+club&sll=43.595731,-79.555371&sspn=0.009309,0.023818&ie=UTF8&radius=0.6&rq=1&ev=zo&ll=43.593446,-79.556766&spn=0.009309,0.023818&t=h&z=16 (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=golf+club&sll=43.595731,-79.555371&sspn=0.009309,0.023818&ie=UTF8&radius=0.6&rq=1&ev=zo&ll=43.593446,-79.556766&spn=0.009309,0.023818&t=h&z=16)
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I work for the contractor who is completing the renovation at Toronto, and I can tell you that the center of 11th green moved exactly 11 feet away from the 12th tee. The green also was expanded about 15 feet to the golfer's left, to create another hole location on the front left.
The original green contours were laser-mapped and re-created exactly in the new location, and the front-left expansion was blended in and tied-in into the new front left bunker.
I am the chap walking to the right closest to the camera in the picture of the green sod being re-laid. Note the hardhats and safety vests required by the Ontario Ministry of Labour.
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Thanks Mike. That seems a lot of work to move a green all of 11 feet.
How far forward will the 15th green be moved?
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Thanks Mike. That seems a lot of work to move a green all of 11 feet.
Paul, it was alot of work, but the expansion to the front left will be a nice addition to the hole. A pin cut front-left just over the new bunker will indeed be tough to get at.
How far forward will the 15th green be moved?
The contours have been replicated exactly as they were and the green moved forward about 70 feet, thereby allowing the tee for #6 to be relocated to where the #6 tee shot will not now have to cross the club's main access road. Also, a new back tee on #15 will add about 45 yards, thereby somewhat offsetting the 23 yards lost from the green relocation.
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Mike
From what you are saying there has been great care taken to replicate the contours precisely. Why hasn't there been similar care in replicating Colt's original bunkers?
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Mike
So I guess the 15th green is now on top of those left hand bunkers below?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/Toronto/Toronto15a.jpg)
Is the cross bunker going to survive on #3? Fairway bunkers short of the green on #5?
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If there ever was an opportunity to create the "gouged" out look the 11th of St Georges Hill was it. That said, I can't help but think this is a storm in tea pot. The bunkering at Sunny Old looks fine, all it needs is a bit of heather to tie them in. The question I have is how will the new bunkers play and how do they effect play?
Ciao
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The new relocated 15th with lots of added mounding :P And the same Hatwree bunker style as Luffenham, SGH, Belvoir
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/15%2009%20for%20blog.JPG)
Before
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010762for%20blog.JPG)
After
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/15%2014%20for%20blog.JPG)
Before
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010767%20for%20blog.JPG)
After
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The bunkers are certainly a lot deeper than they were before and the shapes are more irregular rather than being ovalish.
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The redone 14th bunkers and changed from Alison's original plan. The green extended to the right (restored??).
And ubiquitous "noses" added to bunkers, which seems to be in vogue for Colt course redos.
What happened to the mound behind the green...gone.
I hope they at least chop down the trees behind 14th. The bushes and scrub have gone.
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/14th%20from%20tee%20for%20blog.JPG)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010870for%20blog.JPG)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010864for%20blog.JPG)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010868for%20blog.JPG)
Are the green surrounds being changed on 13th? Or is this re-sodding due to tree removal?
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010875for%20blog.JPG)
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Mike
Is Mr. Ron Hart on the dozer for the Toronto project?
Bryan Bergner
Assistant Supt.
Westmoor CC
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Paul,
Looking at the photo of #14, I might not have guessed the course was Toronto; our "National Golf Links" here, in Canada :'(
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Mike
Is Mr. Ron Hart on the dozer for the Toronto project?
Bryan Bergner
Assistant Supt.
Westmoor CC
Bryan, you are astute - Yes, Ron Hart is doing the bunker and green surrounds shaping at Toronto. If I called him "Mr." he wouldn't know what to do ;D
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What happened to the mound behind the green...gone.
The mound behind the green was eliminated when the green was extended to the rear/right-rear approximately 45 feet.
Are the green surrounds being changed on 13th? Or is this re-sodding due to tree removal?
The left rear bunker was eliminated. THe bunkers were so close to the green edges that the re-shaping of the bunkers necessitated re-sodding the entire surrounding areas around the green. There were no trees close to the gree in the area of disturbance.
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1010875for%20blog.JPG)
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Mark
So the extended 14th green, to the right, is to a surface that was newly built up from scratch?
(Alison's green drawing does shape to the right a somewhat)
Jeff
It's just way too elaborate for Toronto GC. Hawtree doesn't know what a light touch is. Sure the bunkers had become boring, but they only needed to be scruffed a bit.
It looks like he's guessed too and added a bunker to form the typical diagonal Colt bunker line which we see on many of his UK courses. But then this hole is(was) more Alison than Colt.
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Mike
You're right, he would probably look at me funny if I called him Mr.
Please tell him I said hello. His work at Westmoor CC was amazing. I was just looking at the video I shot of him while he shaped some of our bunkers. Very cool
Bryan
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I was out at Toronto Golf Club today.
This will be the first of a few posts. I’m going to provide some images and explain the intent as I understood it from today’s tour.
I will limit my opinion to avoid confusing the issue.
The club is insistent that this was not a restoration - and it was always been a renovation to add more of the style of Colt. The foundation of this philosophy comes from the fact that Colt was not on site during construction and that no detailed plans were generated for the work (something he apparently did after this). Hawtree feels that when he was on site at courses like Swinley Forrest and Sunningdale the detail work was more intricate. He is trying to bring that level of detail to Toronto Golf Club.
The first is a series of images from the same place showing the 10th hole through Time
This picture was from very early on (thanks to Tom MacWood)
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/old.jpg)
This is the hole about 10 years back
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/before.JPG)
This was the hole today.
Of note: the left bunker was moved back into the second ridge which is about 260 yards off the tee.
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/after.jpg)
This is a close up
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/10closer.jpg)
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The 11th
The green rebuilding has been a major source of controversy. There are those who have said that they could not replicate the greens or maintain the feel of the small intricate bumps that were part of the charm. I can tell you that the 11th and 15th greens feature all of the wonderful subtle rolls and bumps that the original green featured. If the green is not an accurate re-creation of the original green it certainly is so very close that the work is admirable.
This is the shot into the 11th as it is today
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/11th.jpg)
This is the hole looking from the back right corner
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/11thapp.jpg)
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Third post of three.
The 15th Details
The surrounds have been completely changed.
There are some subtle and many not so subtle alterations to the surroundings of the greens. This includes the bunkering changes, additional short grass areas, knuckles in the bluegrass, and new hollows beyond the playing surfaces. There does not seem to be any area around the greens that has not been altered.
I’ve enclosed a few images of those areas to give some idea of the work.
I happen to have quite a few of the same photos as Paul and did not post those.
The 15th 10 years ago
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/15old.JPG)
This is the shot into the 15th as it is today.
The surroundings are quite different from the original bunker arrangement.
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/15th.jpg)
This is the sort of small scale detail they are adding around greens with new short grass areas
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/15thfront.jpg)
There are also a lot of fingers of short grass between bunkers too
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew//posts/15thleft.jpg)
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Ian. Great pics and description. Here are my comments based on what I see. Not much change in play for the 10th, although the bunker look has changed. I know you mention the left bunker has moved back. First played there about 35 years ago and it'll be hard to adjust to the new look (to me it's a modernization of old oval bunkers - and yes those ovals are classic whether or not Colt had anything to do with them). My biggest beef with the 10th was when they added the holding pond behind it a few years back, which eliminated one of the most exciting recovery shots on the course. I like what I see of the new 11th, especially the added short grass area to the right of the green. The 15th was one of the great par 4's (along with 5 & 9). I just don't get the change, but regardless am curious about the reason for the short grass fingers (seems like a they're going half way - either short grass more to create a real runoff or don't bother). I'm sure the course will be just as fun, but the look is certainly changing.
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I have some experience with Hawtree restorations. Ten years ago he rebuilt 3 greens and changed many of the bunkers at de Pan. Now 10 years ago we are completeky undoing al these bunker changes, because we are going back to the original oval shaped rough edged bunkers that have always been on the course, be it that we want heather edges where possible. Worse were the green rebuilds. Two of the three greens rebuilt are very different in style from the rest of the course; any of you could spot them right away. Over time the new greens had maintenance problems, and also the club has started to understand they are the wrong style. Unfortunately no measurements were made of the original greens before the rebuilds, so we can not restore them back to how they were, and I'm stuck with old pictures and aerial pictures to complete this task.
The good news at Toronto seems to be that at least they are measuring the old greens before they are being rebuilt, and we have many pictures of the original bunkers.
Many original Colt courses are being "restored" like this at an alarming rate in Europe (Frankfurt, Falkenstein, Hilversum, Le Touquet) and in UK. If my experience in Holland is any indication, they will all be re-restored in 10 years time......
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Wow! I had no idea Dick Wilson was still living and working in Toronto.
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I was out at Toronto Golf Club today.
This will be the first of a few posts. I’m going to provide some images and explain the intent as I understood it from today’s tour.
I will limit my opinion to avoid confusing the issue.
The club is insistent that this was not a restoration - and it was always been a renovation to add more of the style of Colt. The foundation of this philosophy comes from the fact that Colt was not on site during construction and that no detailed plans were generated for the work (something he apparently did after this). Hawtree feels that when he was on site at courses like Swinley Forrest and Sunningdale the detail work was more intricate. He is trying to bring that level of detail to Toronto Golf Club.
Ian
At www.Hawtree.co.uk Hawtree is billing the course as a restoration, or actually a "restauration"...I think i need to go get drunk in a restorant.
"The 2nd of July 2009 TDI will start construction at the long awaited golf course restauration project at Toronto Golf Club. Hawtree, whom is responsible for the design, will be present with full time supervision of the project during the 4 months construction period."
and earlier:
Hawtree, who is currently working on a restoration of Colt's course at Toronto Golf Club, is not one of them, seeing it as more of a professional challenge. "When I first went to Toronto and Hamilton, I knew immediately it was Colt's work from the selection of green sites and the routing of the course to reach them," he says. "With every green, you know exactly why he has put it there. At Belvoir Park in Belfast, it's just the same – he has spent lots of time routing the course to make use of the excellent green sites he found.
"At Toronto, we're really trying to get back to the spirit of Colt," he says. "Over the years, the bunkers have been changed quite considerably, and we're trying to rough the golf course up a little. At most Colt courses, you find that the styling of the bunkers has disappeared, and, since the bunkering and the greens are the keys to his style, it is important to rediscover the original feel. We have put in place a five year plan for the restoration of the course that involves returning to the original grasses as much as possible, and getting rid of lots of trees that have grown up in the intervening years."
This doesn't look like roughening up the course a "little".
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Paul
I am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go. Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for? Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.
Ciao
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Paul
I am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go. Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for? Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.
Ciao
I was hoping for something else. It's all there in Colt's and Alison's reports. Torn/gouged out ridge bunkers. He writes this in all his American reports: Toronto report ( 1913), his Pine Valley report (1913), Old Elm (1913), Hamilton 1914 and it's obvious he was using this style at St George's Hill and Swinley.
If the new bunkers are supposed to be faithful to Sunningdale and Swinley (as Ian writes above), I don't see it. The Hawtree bunkers are much more "in your face".
It's ironic that a Colt course like Moor Park originally had bunkers that were fancy like those new Hawtree bunkers at Toronto (but without the mounding). Hawtree is the consulting architect at Moor Park and the bunkers were recently redone to basically boring circles and ovals!
What has happened at 15th is thoroughly disappointing, very finicky, lots of unnecessary shaping, hollows and mounding. How is this in the "Colt spirit" as Hawtree is claiming?
I believe Hawtree will reshape pretty much all the greens surrounds at Toronto to various degrees with mounds hollows etc even the naturally flat 11th fairway has been recontoured.
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Ian:
I have a more basic question: why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?
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Paul
I am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go. Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for? Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.
Ciao
I was hoping for something else. It's all there in Colt's and Alison's reports. Torn/gouged out ridge bunkers. He writes this in all his American reports: Toronto report ( 1913), his Pine Valley report (1913), Old Elm (1913), Hamilton 1914 and it's obvious he was using this style at St George's Hill and Swinley.
If the new bunkers are supposed to be faithful to Sunningdale and Swinley (as Ian writes above), I don't see it. The Hawtree bunkers are much more "in your face".
It's ironic that a Colt course like Moor Park originally had bunkers that were fancy like those new Hawtree bunkers at Toronto (but without the mounding). Hawtree is the consulting architect at Moor Park and the bunkers were recently redone to basically boring circles and ovals.
What has happened at 15th is thoroughly disappointing, very finicky, lots of unnecessary shaping, hollows and mounding. How is this in the "Colt spirit" as Hawtree is claiming?
I believe Hawtree will reshape pretty much all the greens surrounds at Toronto to various degrees with mounds hollows etc even the naturally flat 11th fairway has been recontoured.
Paul
Gotcha. Do you know of an Colt courses which have gone back to Colt's ideal of the rugged bunkers built into the pads? Did Toronto's bunkers originally appear this way? I think St Georges Hill put some effort into creating that rugged look, but got it hopelessly wrong as is evidenced by thevery awkward looking bunkers at 8. I am not sure why it would be so difficult to create that look (on the 11th as well), perhaps it has more to do with maintenace.
I agree with 15. The hole looks crazy busy and not at all Colt-like.
Ciao
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Sean
I think St Germain did a good job with its rugged fairway bunkers. Some of the American architects like Coore and Crenshaw build bunkers in the "torn out" style and manage to make them look rugged right from the start. This kind of style would be much closer to the spirit of Colt IMO (and much closer to his reports too).
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000471.jpg)
I don't really know whether the rugged look was ever quite pulled off at Toronto. Colt designs it in 1911 returns in 1913 and writes a report that he thinks the bunkers don't have the look he wants and describes the torn our ridge etc. He returns in 1914 too but no report that I know of. Then after WW1 Alison returns and states basically the same thing. Alison also returns in 1927 and I don't think he mentions the bunker style, so I'll assume he was happy with it.
I have no old pics to be sure. The one posted of the 10th I think is from very early on and I think Colt wasn't satisfied with them then.
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Ian:
I have a more basic question: why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?
The area between 10 and 11 was the haul path for hundreds of yards of material to 11 fairway and 11 tees, and it also was an area with poor drainage initially. To make matters worse, there is a 10" irrigation main at a shallow depth parallel to 10/11, which necessitated a bridging operation (dump trash stripped sod) over the main to protect it. Therefore, lots of rain, poor drainage, incessant haul traffic - all contributed to destroying the grass between 10 an 11.
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Paul, maybe the bunkers keep appearing in Colts reports in the early years because the members of Toronto just did not want to change the bunker style; I definitely have a Colt client whose bunkers are not Colt at all, and where I have been arguing for a couple of years now to get them changed, up to now with very limited succes.....
Sean: we are moving towards more rugged fairway bunkers at the Colt courses de Pan and Eindhoven in Holland, but at a modest speed, a few bunkers each year. Same is true for Simpson courses Spa and Sart Tilman in Belgium.
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Paul, maybe the bunkers keep appearing in Colts reports in the early years because the members of Toronto just did not want to change the bunker style; I definitely have a Colt client whose bunkers are not Colt at all, and where I have been arguing for a couple of years now to get them changed, up to now with very limited succes......
Frank
That may be true, I'm not sure. Also remember 1911 was very early for golf course construction in Canada and it was probably quite difficult to get local contractors to do what he wanted. Before his next visit in 1913, the UK magazines show pictures of St George's Hill and state that Colt will be taking these to America to show his ideas of bunker construction.
And so I'm pretty certain of the style that Colt wanted for Toronto and it wasn't the fancy shaped style that Hawtree is using.
To be fair to Martin Hawtree, Colt did do fancy bunker shaping (1920s) that's similar to those new ones at Toronto.
Moor Park:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/3866393252_a210332e1b_o.jpg)
But shouldn't a fine, historic course like Toronto be taken on its own merits rather than having a generic "restoration" style imposed upon it, for the sake of variety at least. In years to come, would Martin Hawtree want someone to restore all his courses to a generic "Hawtree" style?
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Sean
I think St Germain did a good job with its rugged fairway bunkers. Some of the American architects like Coore and Crenshaw build bunkers in the "torn out" style and manage to make them look rugged right from the start. This kind of style would be much closer to the spirit of Colt IMO (and much closer to his reports too).
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000471.jpg)
I don't really know whether the rugged look was ever quite pulled off at Toronto. Colt designs it in 1911 returns in 1913 and writes a report that he thinks the bunkers don't have the look he wants and describes the torn our ridge etc. He returns in 1914 too but no report that I know of. Then after WW1 Alison returns and states basically the same thing. Alison also returns in 1927 and I don't think he mentions the bunker style, so I'll assume he was happy with it.
I have no old pics to be sure. The one posted of the 10th I think is from very early on and I think Colt wasn't satisfied with them then.
Paul
Yes, those St Germain bunkers look superb. However, I think the vegetation helps a load. It allows the bunkers to be quite different in how their faces are presented, yet blended quite well. Plus the examples you gave look to be in perfect spots for creating the depth necessary to balance with the style - which in truth is very basic. I am on your side in these matters so long as it doesn't cost the earth to maintain. That said, for me, by far the most important aspect is the placement and I would prefer all discussions of bunkers start there then work toward the style.
Ciao
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Paul, it seems that Colts bunkers got fancier after his acquaintance to MacKenzie, and after he built Alwoodley with him. The older Colt courses on the continent, like Granville in France, have a very basic bunkering style, oval with rugh edges.
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Sean
I mislead you. The photo is from Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw. They went specifically for the heathland look (I remember because it was discussed on GCA at the time) and they nailed it. Martin Hawtree stated that he wanted to bring a more heathland feel to Toronto and I think this would have been a more faithful way to have done that.
You're right that the shapes are often fairly simple and then the grasses or heather roughen 'em up.
Here's the magazine photo just prior to Colt's second visit to Toronto in 1913, this is what he was trying to get across in his Toronto report (I think all those bunkers on the 3rd are gone now, they are short and right):
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2547/3866704905_c714ed4e5e_o.jpg)
Frank
I'm never too sure who influenced who with Colt and Mackenzie Alwoodley (1907) was even earlier than Granville. Obviously Mackenzie's first course. Colt had experience with Rye and reworking Sunningdale but was only just starting to branch out as an architect. Stoke Poges (1908) was his next big project after working with Mackenzie Alwoodley and it seemed to have a mixture of styles. Some basic, some more flashy, but nothing like Moor Park above.
I've never seen a really good photo of Alwoodley right from the beginning.
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Paul
When Colt says that "...bunkers should be an ornament and not an eysore...", is this the first published definition and defense of "eye candy?"
Rich
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Rich
Maybe, but Colt didn't write the caption. Not sure he'd like "ornament"!
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There's nothing wrong with eye candy. This comes from American Golf Illustrated in 1914 and its caption gives a similar message. I'm not sure what course or courses the photos come from, perhaps St. George's Hill too.
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Here some photos of Colt's CC of Detroit from the same period as Toronto. Most of his N. American courses from this period have much more simplistic bunkering style. Most of those courses were constructed by Carters and I don't believe Colt was around to supervise. At Detroit, and I believe Hamilton, Leonard Macomber of Carters supervised the construction. He may have also been involved at Toronto, although not certain of that. Old Elm was built by Ross. I have not seen too many old photos of OE, but I suspect the bunkers may be a little more naturalistic due to the fact Ross made two trips abroad around that time to study golf course developments.
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This is an old photo of Hamilton.
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This is an old photo of the 18th at Toronto. I believe this hole was bunkerless.
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Tom
Thanks for those.
Those photos of heathland bunkers are from St George's Hill and would have been from the same set he brought over in 1913.
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This is an old photo of the 18th at Toronto. I believe this hole was bunkerless.
And indeed the hole still is bunkerless. Not sure as to whether or not post-restoration will also be bunkerless.
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Ian:
I have a more basic question: why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?
Sorry Tom - I was away with work and family over the last little while.
There are now undulations in the 11th fairway.
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Ian:
I have a more basic question: why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?
Sorry Tom - I was away with work and family over the last little while.
There are now undulations in the 11th fairway.
Wasn't the flat 11th fairway an nice contrast to the humpy, lumpy, 10th and the 12th with its shallow gully?
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Is the gully on the left side of 12 going to remain the way it was in the recent past or is there going to be changes to it - ie. bunkering or converting it to fairway?
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More tongues and noses: Colt's first American course after a total face lift.
Definitely much more 1925 (Moor Park but less rugged) than 1911 (Swinley....).
Not "heathland" as the project description suggested.
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020373for%20blog.JPG)
6th
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020375for%20blog.JPG)
10th
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020378for%20blog.JPG)
12th with added bunker into the ridge. A restored feature?
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020383for%20blog.JPG)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020242for%20blog.JPG)
13th
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020247for%20blog.JPG)
13
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020389for%20blog.JPG)
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020392for%20blog.JPG)
15th again...with mounding way out beyond the bunkers to the right.
(http://www.tdigolf.com/Images/P1020401for%20blog.JPG)
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It looks like Martin Hawtree has terraced the ravine at the 7th? Bizarre! It looks like a rice paddy. What was he thinking?
(http://www.hawtree.co.uk/Admin/getResource.aspx?fileId=35&flag=1)
How it used to be:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/Toronto/Toronto7-1.jpg)
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That terracing to the right of #7 looks unnatural and/or artificial. Before the restoration, there was not a drainage problem on the slope, nor any difficulty in growing the vegatation needed, so I cannot imagine what the motive was.
I agree it looks goofy. Ugh.
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When will the course re-open?
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When will the course re-open?
Originally when the project schedule was formulated, the construction was to be complete before the snow flew this fall, with Oct 30 being the projected completion date. The re-opening will depend on the weather in the spring of 2010. Great weather with lots of sunshine could mean June 1 re-opening.
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I find this all quite fascinating. Essentially Hawtree is saying that he knows what Colt would have done had he created TGC a decade after its opening. In other words, in his historical interpretation, the course would have looked significantly different if Colt had been there in the 1920s -- and he could be right. But it strikes me as pretty arrogant -- especially when we know that Allison came back to the course and made suggestions -- and that Toronto Golf Club has Allison's notes for alterations. So I ask, who knew Colt's work better -- Allison or Hawtree? The associate at the time, or a guy who never met Colt?
Mike Bowline:
What is your involvement with the club or the course? You seem to have a good sense of what is going on.
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posted in error....
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This thread does strike me as a bit of a character attack on Hawtree. Does anybody know exactly what Hawtree's brief is?
Ciao
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Sean
I haven't read it that way. Presumably Hawtree was hired as he was perceived as a Colt "expert". Just seems to me somewhat dishonest to try and recreate something from another period of Colt's work that never existed at Toronto. Similarly Titirangi's bunkers have been "restored" with lace edges despite there being no evidence that the bunkers ever looked like this, nor any that Mac did any bunkers in Aust/NZ like this. A pastiche in my view.
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Sean
I haven't read it that way. Presumably Hawtree was hired as he was perceived as a Colt "expert". Just seems to me somewhat dishonest to try and recreate something from another period of Colt's work that never existed at Toronto. Similarly Titirangi's bunkers have been "restored" with lace edges despite there being no evidence that the bunkers ever looked like this, nor any that Mac did any bunkers in Aust/NZ like this. A pastiche in my view.
Neil
You could well be right. It does, however, seem to me that folks are getting hung on the Colt aspect of the work rather than what the club may have included in the remit or indeed the work itself. IMO, people seem to be leaping to conclusions about the work without the intimate details of the agreement or the remit. That said, I freely admit to not getting overly worried about the details of these sorts of projects. I spose I am in the camp of courses changing just because its the nature of man and nature itself to do so.
Ciao
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This thread isn't a character assassination it's just criticism of design changes to an historic course.
Apparently it was a design "tweak"
ENGLISH TEE
Although it dates back to 1867, making it North America’s third-oldest golf club, Toronto Golf Club’s lasting imprint was left by England’s Harry S. Colt, who laid out the present-day course in 1912. So perhaps it’s appropriate that the refurbishing of the highly lauded course has been entrusted to another Englishman, Martin Hawtree—a man not unfamiliar with Southern Ontario, having designed Tarandowah Golfers Club, which won Ontario Golf magazine’s Best New Course in 2008.
To prepare for renovations, Toronto Golf Club—one of two Colt designs in Canada, the other being Hamilton G&CC—will be shutting down for play on July 2 and will reopen in the spring of 2010. Its nine-hole Watson Course will remain open throughout the renovations.
“It’s a bold step for this club,” says general manager Glenn Smale, noting the project went out for tender in November and came back under budget. “Basically we’re trying to restore the Colt flavour by tweaking the course.” That includes a little bit of everything: a new irrigation system, bunker relocation and removal, breaking up some tee decks to make the course more playable for high handicaps, fairway realignment, new fescue grasses on the fairways and elsewhere, as well as improving the views throughout the course. “Martin’s knowledge of what Colt was doing has been a great help,” Smale says. “There’s no one in the world who understands Colt better.” —BRENT LONG"
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This thread isn't a character assassination it's just criticism of design changes to an historic course.
Apparently it was a design "tweak"
ENGLISH TEE
Although it dates back to 1867, making it North America’s third-oldest golf club, Toronto Golf Club’s lasting imprint was left by England’s Harry S. Colt, who laid out the present-day course in 1912. So perhaps it’s appropriate that the refurbishing of the highly lauded course has been entrusted to another Englishman, Martin Hawtree—a man not unfamiliar with Southern Ontario, having designed Tarandowah Golfers Club, which won Ontario Golf magazine’s Best New Course in 2008.
To prepare for renovations, Toronto Golf Club—one of two Colt designs in Canada, the other being Hamilton G&CC—will be shutting down for play on July 2 and will reopen in the spring of 2010. Its nine-hole Watson Course will remain open throughout the renovations.
“It’s a bold step for this club,” says general manager Glenn Smale, noting the project went out for tender in November and came back under budget. “Basically we’re trying to restore the Colt flavour by tweaking the course.” That includes a little bit of everything: a new irrigation system, bunker relocation and removal, breaking up some tee decks to make the course more playable for high handicaps, fairway realignment, new fescue grasses on the fairways and elsewhere, as well as improving the views throughout the course. “Martin’s knowledge of what Colt was doing has been a great help,” Smale says. “There’s no one in the world who understands Colt better.” —BRENT LONG"
Paul
This is what I am referring to when I stated folks may be getting hung up on the Colt aspect of the reno. The club has to hang its hat on something and using Colt is as good a hook as any. My point is that unless folks know these decisions are Hawtree's, they should probably cite the club as responsible. That is why having details about the work is critical if one is going to be critical of the archie.
Ciao
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Sean
These are Hawtree's design decisions. It's clear the club trusted in his expertise as the Colt expert.
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Mike Bowline:
What is your involvement with the club or the course? You seem to have a good sense of what is going on.
Robert: I was the contractor's (TDI International, Inc) on-site full-time Project Manager, from June-August. I had many meetings on-site with Hawtree and his full-time on-site man, plus our lead shaper. I therefore have an intimate understanding of the project's scope and schedule.
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This thread does strike me as a bit of a character attack on Hawtree. Does anybody know exactly what Hawtree's brief is?
Ciao
Sean: I don't have any problem with Hawtree personally; I've interviewed him once about his new course in Ontario, Tarandowah, which I think is the best value in Canada.
I'm more intrigued by the philosophical questions surrounding the work at Toronto and the decisions Hawtree made in making them. Nothing personal....
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Sean,
The big issue for me is this was the single most important piece of golf course architecture in Canada. This was the course that changed golf architecture in Canada. It’s our National Golf Links. It was a huge influence on Stanley Thompson and set a new standard for golf course design. Watching it disappear is painful from a historical basis.
The course was almost completely intact. They have the plan drawn by Colt, his site directions, his bunker construction details, letters from Alison, and Alison’s renovation drawings done under the direction of Colt. There are plenty of photos from different eras available for review. But he keeps changing more and more as he goes.
From my visit to see the work last fall I learned that the architect is “restoring” to what Colt would have done at the “end of his career” if the course was in London. I expect some will love the work, because a very subtle golf course is now full of very bold architectural features.
I’m frustrated because I’m losing one of my biggest influences.
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Sean,
The big issue for me is this was the single most important piece of golf course architecture in Canada. This was the course that changed golf architecture in Canada. It’s our National Golf Links. It was a huge influence on Stanley Thompson and set a new standard for golf course design. Watching it disappear is painful from a historical basis.
The course was almost completely intact. They have the plan drawn by Colt, his site directions, his bunker construction details, letters from Alison, and Alison’s renovation drawings done under the direction of Colt. There are plenty of photos from different eras available for review. But he keeps changing more and more as he goes.
From my visit to see the work last fall I learned that the architect is “restoring” to what Colt would have done at the “end of his career” if the course was in London. I expect some will love the work, because a very subtle golf course is now full of very bold architectural features.
I’m frustrated because I’m losing one of my biggest influences.
Ian
I can sympathize with your position because I tend to believe that courses get mucked with unnecessarily far too often and that there are a certain number of courses which are important enough to make any and all attempts to keep them as originally intended. That said, the club can and will do as it likes. I have never been comfortable with the idea of getting on the archies' case for these jobs unless one knows he has carte blanche which apparently Hawtree has in this instance. Even then, the club can see the work an archie has recently done and the work currently in progress. One would assume there is at least a certain level of satisfaction otherwise why is the work carrying on?
I can also understands Paul's concerns especially those of a lack of diversity of hazards for a designer who used differing styles throughout his career. That said, excepting the quantity, I think the vast majority of the new bunkers look more challenging and more appealing than the old bunkers which in truth were not terribly attractive. However, if the guys in the know (meaning you lot) believe the less attractive bunkers are more appropriate because of Toronto's position in the history of Canadian architecture, that is fair enough and a position I would support.
I do have a question about the shifting of the 11th green. What is on the bank to the left or even left of it. Was it possible to just clear the trees to create more of a zone which balls could be played to rather than having the area near the 12th as the bailout zone?
Ciao
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For what it's worth (if anything!), Ian sums up my thoughts on this renovation of Toronto Golf Club. Toronto was a beautifully subtle golf course... for nearly a century. A very good one, too; and, a HUGE influence here, in Canada.
Thank goodness there are no plans to renovate the National Golf Links of America, for example, based on an individual perception of what Charles Blair Macdonald "would have done at the end of his (life)". That would be a travesty.
As things go, I will not be surprised if a new legion of committee members at Toronto Golf Club look into sincerely restoring the course - based on Colt's and Alison's plans/notes/reports - decades from now.
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What was the impetus for change?
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Robert Thompson has a better photo for comparison on his blog:
http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/2010/01/04/toronto-golf-club-when-is-it-a-restoration-and-when-is-it-something-else-pt-ii/#comments
Before
(http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tgc7old.jpg)
After
(http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tgc-hawtree.jpg)
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What was the impetus for change?
Probably to move up in the Canadian rankings, they were not in the top 20 and this will likely move them up.
NOT a sympathetic "restoration"
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There was a seminar in Oakville today put on by the RCGA about Toronto Golf Club, and TDI Golf, which did the construction on the course, was there, as well as Jim Fraser, a club member who led the movement for change.
It was an interesting discussion -- but one thing they wanted to make clear was they did not consider this a restoration. Maybe Hawtree does, but apparently he's the only one. TDI may have called it that initially, but they've apparently seen the error of their ways and note that rebuilding two greens and moving tees and fairways, as well as "terracing" two hillsides isn't restoration.
A few notes:
+ Length of the course increased to nearly 6,900 from 6,550
+ Several holes which were already long (the third, for instance, which was already 430) got much longer (65+ yards in that instance). The par-3s now play 185, 230, 155, 230. The fifth hole, another long one, also got lengthened and the rebuilt 15th was also significantly altered.
+ Coffin bunker on the left of 17 was rebuilt. Hard to fathom why.
+ Several areas were "terraced," including the hillside on the right of the par-3 7th. Apparently this was done to allow easier access for members on a steep slope. I found this fascinating because at the same time the club added nearly 400 yards, apparently it is worried about access for old members I also assume the relatively uncontoured slope was natural. So in place of that they’ve terraced it trying to make the changes in slope appear natural. Call it manufactured naturalness. I don’t think it looks very good in the photos, for what it is worth.
+New before and afters can be found here: http://www.tdigolf.com/blog.aspx
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Robert
Any idea where else the course had slopes "terraced", other than the 7th? They did something to the right hand side slope on the 11th.
No matter what the reason for the terracing, I can't think of a single Colt hole that has anything resembling that shown for the 7th.
I suspected the 17th coffin bunker was a gonna. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the redo work.
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There was a seminar in Oakville today put on by the RCGA about Toronto Golf Club, and TDI Golf, which did the construction on the course, was there, as well as Jim Fraser, a club member who led the movement for change.
It was an interesting discussion -- but one thing they wanted to make clear was they did not consider this a restoration. Maybe Hawtree does, but apparently he's the only one. TDI may have called it that initially, but they've apparently seen the error of their ways and note that rebuilding two greens and moving tees and fairways, as well as "terracing" two hillsides isn't restoration.
A few notes:
+ Length of the course increased to nearly 6,900 from 6,550
+ Several holes which were already long (the third, for instance, which was already 430) got much longer (65+ yards in that instance). The par-3s now play 185, 230, 155, 230. The fifth hole, another long one, also got lengthened and the rebuilt 15th was also significantly altered.
+ Coffin bunker on the left of 17 was rebuilt. Hard to fathom why.
+ Several areas were "terraced," including the hillside on the right of the par-3 7th. Apparently this was done to allow easier access for members on a steep slope. I found this fascinating because at the same time the club added nearly 400 yards, apparently it is worried about access for old members I also assume the relatively uncontoured slope was natural. So in place of that they’ve terraced it trying to make the changes in slope appear natural. Call it manufactured naturalness. I don’t think it looks very good in the photos, for what it is worth.
+New before and afters can be found here: http://www.tdigolf.com/blog.aspx
Was there any explanation/reasoning from the member, on why they opted for a renovation as opposed to a restoration?
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After a lot of consultations with the membership and the direction of Hawtree, they decided to do something other than a restoration. 69% of the membership voted in favor of the plan.
There was a seminar in Oakville today put on by the RCGA about Toronto Golf Club, and TDI Golf, which did the construction on the course, was there, as well as Jim Fraser, a club member who led the movement for change.
It was an interesting discussion -- but one thing they wanted to make clear was they did not consider this a restoration. Maybe Hawtree does, but apparently he's the only one. TDI may have called it that initially, but they've apparently seen the error of their ways and note that rebuilding two greens and moving tees and fairways, as well as "terracing" two hillsides isn't restoration.
A few notes:
+ Length of the course increased to nearly 6,900 from 6,550
+ Several holes which were already long (the third, for instance, which was already 430) got much longer (65+ yards in that instance). The par-3s now play 185, 230, 155, 230. The fifth hole, another long one, also got lengthened and the rebuilt 15th was also significantly altered.
+ Coffin bunker on the left of 17 was rebuilt. Hard to fathom why.
+ Several areas were "terraced," including the hillside on the right of the par-3 7th. Apparently this was done to allow easier access for members on a steep slope. I found this fascinating because at the same time the club added nearly 400 yards, apparently it is worried about access for old members I also assume the relatively uncontoured slope was natural. So in place of that they’ve terraced it trying to make the changes in slope appear natural. Call it manufactured naturalness. I don’t think it looks very good in the photos, for what it is worth.
+New before and afters can be found here: http://www.tdigolf.com/blog.aspx
Was there any explanation/reasoning from the member, on why they opted for a renovation as opposed to a restoration?
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I was a panelist at yesterday’s seminar discussing this recent work at Toronto Golf Club.
Paul,
I might be missing an additional hole (or two), but I do recall hillsides fronting the 11th green and 18th fairway also received “terrace” treatment.
Through my affection for the Toronto course, I've admittedly been very skeptical about this work. What did come out of yesterday’s event, though, is how thorough and diligent the powers-that-be at TGC have been throughout planning and implementation of this project... from determining needs for this work, to selecting an architect, to devising and agreeing upon a plan for course improvement, through implementation of the construction work.
Approaching this project wasn't taken lightly, according to Mr. Fraser. Planning actually began in 2001.
Even if we don't agree with what's been done, I think it’s important to note that there are a lot of fine people with honourable intentions involved with this project. This said, the course is very much changed (I had a quick tour yesterday morning as well). Its new form and overall aesthetic following this renovation project - it's not restoration – are things never seen previously at Toronto Golf Club.
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Jeff
What do they think of the work? Do they think it's congruent with Colt's other courses?
Why were the reports by both Colt and Alison basically ignored?
My feeling is that length could have been added and the bunkers roughened up a bit (as shown in the Colt and Alison reports) and it would have been far less jarring. There's no excuse for the terracing and some of the mounding on a course like this.
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Paul,
What do they think of the work? Do they think it's congruent with Colt's other courses?
There was only one member of Toronto Golf Club present yesterday. He's thrilled with the work. You never know about the entire membership though, of course. Mr. Fraser did point out that a contingent, including golf course superintendents, contractor and principle shaper made a trip to England to examine Colt courses, with Mr. Hawtree. The contractor - who's a great guy representing a very reputable company, by the way - showed some photos of courses they'd seen during this trip; most notably Sunningdale. I immediately noticed - and pointed out - that most of his photos were of reconstructed bunkers; not Colt originals. I found this interested. The new bunkers at Sunningdale, which I also don't thnk are representative of Colt's original work there (correct me if I'm wrong, please), were undoubtedly the models for the new bunkers at Toronto.
At this point, I also thought it was important to point out that, through examination of Mr. Colt's work, there really isn't a "Colt bunker style", is there?
Why were the reports by both Colt and Alison basically ignored?
Robert Thompson asked this question yesterday. Mr. Fraser's answer was that Mr. Hawtree and his staff did a lot of research on the design history and evolution of the golf course in the process of devising their plan. And, he acknowledged that Colt's and Alison's reports were, in fact, not influential relative to what's been done.
It's hard for me not to say that I agree, length could have been added and bunkers roughed up a bit, and the work would have been far less jarring. Jarring is actually a good word. What I've long loved about Toronto Golf Club was the simple elegance of the course. It was simply elegant in apperance, but was so attractive and interesting to play at the same time. Genius.
Now, right or wrong, there's a lot to take in visually. The new bunker style is comparatively "busy" (by comparison with not only what was there, but bunkers illustrated in historic photos of the course). More startling though, upon first sight, is the contouring around the greens. Slopes spilling off the greens used to be long and soft and seemingly natural for the most part. Now, a majority of the greens are surrounded by choppy, bumpy, somewhat abrupt contour. This change stands out most prominently in my mind.
I really look forward to opportunity to see the course again once this new work has settled in and matured a bit.
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EDIT. asked a question that had already been answered..
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Sean,
I believe the re-opening is May 15. Right on schedule, which is always impressive!
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More startling though, upon first sight, is the contouring around the greens. Slopes spilling off the greens used to be long and soft and seemingly natural for the most part. Now, a majority of the greens are surrounded by choppy, bumpy, somewhat abrupt contour. This change stands out most prominently in my mind. .
Jeff
Did they leave the 4th green complex alone? Or was there mounding added? That is/was a perfect land form.
The work is just Martin Hawtree copying his own redo work at Sunningdale and others. We now have less variety and a bastardized Toronto course. A bit of history destroyed,
Would Martin Hawtree appreciate an architect remodeling a UK course of his, say Bearwood Lakes, in a later Hawtree style like Tarandowah (Canada)?
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Paul,
I'm pretty sure the green complex at the Redan 4th is untouched; though, they did make an alteration to the creek which crosses between tees and greens to make it more visible I believe. (I've only seen this hole, post-renovation, in photos.)
As I pointed out Sunday, one of golf's great attractions is the amazing diversity of courses throughout the world. Even more amazing is the diversity of courses within the individual portfolios of the great architects. Which is why, in my opinion, it's so important to delve into the design history of individual courses when approaching restorative-based projects, rather than impose a perceived Colt, Ross, Tillinghast, Mackenzie, Thompson, et al "style" at course after course.
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Was enough documentation available had TGC decided to undertake a faithful restoration of the 1912 design?
If so, does anyone know how much the 1912 design resembled the pre-reno TGC (2008)?
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will wait untill see the finished product - but i am a bit concerned by the photos of the work in progress - might not be a lone on this one
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I played Toronto Golf Club today with a group - my first time on the property, so I have no sense of the course pre-'restoration'. I can tell you that the feedback from golfers today was overwhelmingly positive - a great walk, with very attractive and strategic bunkering, wide corridors, and interesting chipping areas surrounding greens (again, I had not played the course pre-restoration) - I loved the centerline bunkers added on 12 and 16...still trying to figure out the ideal line on 8. Most of the comments on this thread seem to be based on impressions from photographs, but I'm curious whether commentators have shifted their views after actually playing the course? I was very, very impressed with the golf course and the club, and am surprised by the negative tone of much of the commentary. As a specific rebuttal, I didn't know the 11th green had been shifted left, but having played it today it makes perfect sense...it is quite close to 12 tee, and approach shots to elevated greens tend to 'stray' from their intended line...it is true that 17 green and 18 tee are even closer, but the practice at the club is for golfers on the 17th green to 'wave up' players from the tee box; this presumably speeds up play, but it also mitigates the 'danger factor' as nobody is hitting tee shots on 17 when you are standing on 18 tee! Bottom line - I was blown away by Toronto Golf Club and envy those who are able to play the course every day!
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I have played the course a few times both before and after. I personally like the work for the most part and I think the bunkering has been improved and some of the bunkers are no longer way off in the rough. Maybe Ian or some other can comment but how much of the course prior to Hawtree's work was really Colt and how much was substantially altered over the last 100 years? I am off to the course next week for another look so we will see how it is settling in two years later.
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Matt,
There was plenty of information, lots of original features and the quality of existing golf architecture was high. It was understated and elegant, brilliant in its subtlety.
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Matt,
There was plenty of information, lots of original features and the quality of existing golf architecture was high. It was understated and elegant, brilliant in its subtlety.
Ian, you seem more than familiar with Tarana, claiming it had a huge influence. Not knowing the course, I'm curious; asked to restore would you have done any modernizing, and if so what perhaps in a large overview? Moved a handful of tees, a few bunkers... etc.
I take it you would have gone back and restored the look of the bunkers to their original character, widened out fairways as needed, and tree removal if and where necessary, and not touched the greens... or?
Your use of the word "elegance" reminded me of a good book titled In Pursuit of Elegance. You have a word for what the course is today?
Jeff,
Your comment that the course could be returned to its original character in a few decades seems to be the trend, but Toronto seems to be 50-years behind the times.
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Bump.
Link to my photo tour...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53596.0.html
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www.greensdrainage.com/pdfs/Greens%20Beautiful%20XGD.pdf
An article about the Toronto GC "renovation" from late 2011. Some of the why's and how's are explained.
Tom D, You asked about the stripped roughs between holes; seems they did it to introduce fescue roughs.