Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David Stamm on March 09, 2009, 09:24:14 PM
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(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/MAYDAYGROUNDING0012.jpg)
"I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that beauty means a great deal on a golf course; even the man who emphatically states that he does not care a hang for beauty is subconciously influenced by his surroundings. A beautiful hole appeals not only to the short but also to the long handicap player, and there are few first rate holes which are not at the same time, either in the granduer of their undulations and hazards, or the character of their surroundings, things of beauty in themselves."- Alister MacKenzie
The Good Doctor must've had The Valley Club in mind when he wrote this, amongst his many other masterpieces. I was extremely fortunate to recently experience this magnificent place with 2 other GCAers and our most gracious host and I left being mesmerized once again by my favorite architect. I wanted to present and share with others some history and photos of this truly special place. This will be a 3 part presentation.
The beginnings of golf in Santa Barbara started in 1894 and the founding of the Santa Barbara Country Club with the clubhouse occupying the grounds of the present Biltmore hotel on Channel Drive, a fabulous place my friend Jon Spaulding and I enjoyed breakfast at before arriving at the club. The course broke ground nearby in the fall of 1895, "a grassless nine hole affair" that was amongst the earliest in California. Eventually, the club in the early '20's acquired more land and founded what would become the Montecito Country Club, an early course of a friend of MacKenzie's and a great architect in his own right, Max Behr. In early 1928, some members of this club wanted to start a new one and upon hearing of MacKenzie's visit to Los Angeles, invited him to look at the present site and he accepted the commision, signing an agreement with the club to build the course with Robert Hunter in October of that year. The course broke ground the following month and was completed in December of 1929. Below is an aerial of the property before construction.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0006.jpg)
Once again, the formidable duo of MacKenzie and Hunter would work hand in hand, just as they had at The Meadow Club and Cypress Point Club, with Hunter carrying out the Dr.'s design. The Valley Club is often considered Hunters most personal effort, as he moved to Montecito with his wife to carry out the details of the design and living out his days there as well as being a member. As a side note, Hunters son, Robert Jr. would head up MacKenzie's construction firm, The American Golf Course Construction Company.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0002.jpg)
Below are the plans for the course taken from the club's history. The first is the West side of the road (clubhouse side) that divides the course, Sheffield Drive, and the second is the East side. Note that Hunter's name is listed first.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0007.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0008.jpg)
Of the two, the East side contains the more interesting land with MacKenzie and Hunter utilizing a hill, much like they did with the dune at Cypress Point, to great effect as you'll see in the photo's.
The club in 1942 used the East side for a Victory Garden for the war effort and thus operated as a nine holer with a par 3 hole near the driving range to make up the difference, which is still used to this day for those who wish to not cross over Sheffield. In 1946, the club brought William P Bell to restore the course to the original design as both MacKenzie and Hunter had passed away. More recently, the Renaissance Group has completed work that brought back the spirit of MacKenzie's and Hunter's bunkers and recaptured lost green surfaces as well as bringing back the closely mown areas around the greens. Doak and Urbina are to be commended for their painstaking efforts and the wonderful job they did. Our host commented that the membership is quite pleased with the results. And now, the journey begins. After turning off of East Valley Rd.....
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VCentrance.jpg)
The Valley Club has one of the most serene settings I've ever experienced. With one of the best clubhouses in golf overlooking the Channel Islands, it truly is a breathtaking place.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/Clubhousefromrange18.jpg)
Next to the clubhouse and above the practice tee are 2 cottages, the lodgings of John Grant and MacKenzie in Geoff Shackelfords novel, The Good Doctor Returns.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/Cottage.jpg)
Not much has changed in the wonderful locker room.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VClockerroom.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/Lockerroom1.jpg)
So we come to the first tee, which was originally built as a par 5. Today, it's a 462 yard par 4 from the tips. Upon acquiring a scorecard, you also are given one of these.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/MAYDAYGROUNDING0013.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/MAYDAYGROUNDING0014.jpg)
No, the course does not contain yardage markers and these are your lifeblood if you wish to successfully navigate the course.
Our tee shot
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/1teeshot.jpg)
a little closer...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/1teeshot2.jpg)
The greensite..
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/1greensite2.jpg)
...looking back to the tee...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/ValleyClub1FWlookingback.jpg)
..the falloff on the right side of the green..
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/1greenfrombehindrightside.jpg)
Looking back from behind the green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/1greenlookingback.jpg)
..and a vintage photo..
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC1.jpg)
An early aerial of the hole...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC1aerial.jpg)
A view of the surrounds from the 2nd tee. To the left, the 14th green. Everything is maintained at one mowing height.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/1stgreen14thgreen2tee.jpg)
The 2nd hole's tee shot. Par 5, 503 yds.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/2ndteeshot.jpg)
From the fw...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/2ndapproach2.jpg)
...and a little closer...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/2ndgreen.jpg)
...and from the right...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/ValleyClub013.jpg)
We now cross Sheffield Drive over to the East side of the property and we start with one of best holes on the course, the 457 yard par 4 3rd, with our tee shot crossing over Picay Creek.
"It is not the love of something easy which has drawn men like a magnet for hundreds of years to this royal and ancient pastime; on the contrary, it is the maddening difficulty of it."- Robert Hunter
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/3rdteeshot.jpg)
From the edge of the creek...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/3rdfwfromtheegdeofcreek.jpg)
...and a little closer...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/3rdapproach.jpg)
..from the left...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/ValleyClub015.jpg)
...looking back.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/3rdgreenfrom4thtee.jpg)
And old aerial.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0005.jpg)
And a look of the green from the 12th hole and across the creek...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC3.jpg)
We now climb the hill that MacKenzie and Hunter took full advantage of that comes into play for the first time. It serves as the tee for the next hole, the beguiling 143 yd par 3 4th.
"Hazards-how well chosen the name! They are risks; and penalties must come to those who take risks and fail."-Robert Hunter
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/4thgreensite.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/4thgreen2.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/4thgreenfrom3rdbunkers.jpg)
The 422 yd par 4 5th.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/5thteeshot.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/5thfw.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/5thapproach.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/5thapproach2.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/5thapproach3.jpg)
From the left side of the greensite....
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/5thgreenfrom6thteeside.jpg)
Note again the closely mown area that flows right into the 6th tee....
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/ValleyClub022.jpg)
The short 298 yd par 4 6th.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/6thteeshot.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/6thfwbunker.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/6thfwbunker2.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/ValleyClub024.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/ValleyClub025.jpg)
We have now reached the end of part one. In part two, we will return to the hill, depart from it and then return once again and then conclude the East side of the course before recrossing Sheffield.
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Thanks David - this is great work.
I do not recall playing a course with tee areas that are mown at the same height as the fairway and flow directly into them in places.
Is it a bit strange at first?
Is this a walking only course? Great to see all the lads with their push carts. Seems like the VC is a real classic - ie) a very unique experience
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Thanks David,
One of those private gems in our state that you always wonder what it is like. I definately have a better appreciation because of your post.
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David, great research and narrative of a wonderful course, the old photos and aerials are super.
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David,
Yes, very cool. Well done and thanks for sharing.
Now ... if only we could do the same for Sharp Park...
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This really needs to be in IMO or someplace else on this site, not here where it will just disappear.
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EPIC
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Of all things, I enjoyed seeing the effects of old school fertilizer spreaders/ lack of understanding of how fertilizer works in the soil in the aerials.
Those spread patterns are like you see in the neighborhood after a homeowner goes to big box store and buys some fertilizer and a drop spreader......
;D
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Of all things, I enjoyed seeing the effects of old school fertilizer spreaders/ lack of understanding of how fertilizer works in the soil in the aerials.
Those spread patterns are like you see in the neighborhood after a homeowner goes to big box store and buys some fertilizer and a drop spreader......
;D
Joe, if you are talking about the different colored ovals in front of the greens, those are the temp greens the club used during the months of green construction (all were completely rebuilt, expanded and regrassed).
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Thanks David - this is great work.
I do not recall playing a course with tee areas that are mown at the same height as the fairway and flow directly into them in places.
Is it a bit strange at first?
Is this a walking only course? Great to see all the lads with their push carts. Seems like the VC is a real classic - ie) a very unique experience
Is it strange at first?
Im, sorry I really did laugh when I read that. But seriously its one of those things that makes you wonder why every course doesn't do it. And then you realize that cart paths and lawyers ruined it for everyone. After seeing it on the 3rd or 4th holes, (maybe both) I was sold. Glad to see it continued throughout the round when possible.
Ill post some of my pictures when i get a chance.
Nice thread David.
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Bill I think he is talking about this:
Check the left to right patterns on the fairway.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC1aerial.jpg)
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This really needs to be in IMO or someplace else on this site, not here where it will just disappear.
Agreed.
David, this is just terrific and, as Matt stated above, does need to be posted in another section of this website as to be readily available for reference.
Great job!
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Thanks for the assist, Ryan!
Joe
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Bill I think he is talking about this:
Check the left to right patterns on the fairway.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC1aerial.jpg)
Not sure when those aerials were taken, but my guess is the '30s. It doesn't look like that today!
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Of all things, I enjoyed seeing the effects of old school fertilizer spreaders/ lack of understanding of how fertilizer works in the soil in the aerials.
Those spread patterns are like you see in the neighborhood after a homeowner goes to big box store and buys some fertilizer and a drop spreader......
;D
Joe, if you are talking about the different colored ovals in front of the greens, those are the temp greens the club used during the months of green construction (all were completely rebuilt, expanded and regrassed).
Bill,
Sorry I wasn't more clear. I did say "aerials", however........ ;D
Joe
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Terrific David. Brings back some memories for me. My visit was a foggy morning - you have been blessed with sunshine.
The short grass is wonderful isn't it. My take after the visit was about how great Lakeside could be if they adopted a similar approach.
One other aspect that really got me was the adept use of multiple tees. Like so many Mackenzie courses, they have a back (?blue), members (?white), ladies (?red)and seniors (?green) tees. On any other course, 4 sets of tees would look cluttered. But the tees are either well spaced or occupy the same ground. In the latter case, the ladies and senior teeing area will comprise a single red marker and a single green marker. The uncluttered nature of the course set-up is in every detail.
I didn't realise there were no yardage markers - it goes with the uncluttered appearance.
James B
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great stuff, thanks for posting!
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Excellent work with all this David - sure has me looking forward to upcoming installments. Love the old B&W photos and the colour plan was a surprise - I had only seen the B&W version that is in the Doak book on Dr Mac. Is the club history book worth seeing?
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David - Great tour! Love the mix of the old and the new throughout.
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I'm glad you guys are enjoying it.
James, it was a perfect day. We were very fortunate.
Neil, the book is most certainly worth having, as James can attest. It's one of the best club histories I've seen. The plans you see are hanging in the men's grill.
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David,
Some years ago on GCA there was talk of OWNING a golf club. My wish was that of all the places on the planet I would covet, would be the Valley Club of Montecito.
A perfect place with the perfect climate.
And for the sartorially dissolute, they welcome shorts.
Bob
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Excellent work with all this David - sure has me looking forward to upcoming installments. Love the old B&W photos and the colour plan was a surprise - I had only seen the B&W version that is in the Doak book on Dr Mac. Is the club history book worth seeing?
Neil
call around and you can borrow it!
James
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One of my favorite golf courses anywhere. A fantastic place.
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..from the left...
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/ValleyClub015.jpg)
"Hazards-how well chosen the name! They are risks; and penalties must come to those who take risks and fail."-Robert Hunter
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/4thgreensite.jpg)
Is it just me or does this first pic of the greenside bunker to the par 4 3rd remind anyone of the greenside bunker left of the 10th ... at Pasa?
And this "ring around the green" bunkers remind anyone of the ... restored 13th at Pasa?
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That's a FW bunker on #3 Valley Club, about 1/4 the size of #10 Pasa in all directions, and 1/10 as interesting.
#4 VC the bunkers are more in play, especially with the front pin. The hole is a great relief after the absolute ball-buster that is #3; which might be the toughest "unconverted" Mackenzie par 4 on the West Coast.
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That's a FW bunker on #3 Valley Club, about 1/4 the size of #10 Pasa in all directions, and 1/10 as interesting.
#4 VC the bunkers are more in play, especially with the front pin. The hole is a great relief after the absolute ball-buster that is #3; which might be the toughest "unconverted" Mackenzie par 4 on the West Coast.
Jon is correct, that is the fw bunker to the left of the fw on 3.
I would have to agree about 3. It is one of most difficult I've seen from Mack. Right up there with 11 at Pasa. But it's also one of the best. 4 doesn't give you much time to breathe as 5 is also a difficult hole.
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David,
Some years ago on GCA there was talk of OWNING a golf club. My wish was that of all the places on the planet I would covet, would be the Valley Club of Montecito.
A perfect place with the perfect climate.
And for the sartorially dissolute, they welcome shorts.
Bob
Freddy Couples is a member and it's great to see him out there in shorts playing with the guys, pushing a Sun Mountain three wheel cart.
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I just find the shape of the FW 3rd bunker to remind me of the "fishbone" greenside bunker of the 10th at Pasa.
I agree not as impressive.
About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight? Those trees just don't seem to belong.
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About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight? Those trees just don't seem to belong.
Considering the fact that those Sycamores were there when MacKenzie first visited the property in 1928, and that he used them as a secondary means of a hazard for the hole, then I would submit that they DO belong. However, the hole doesn't have quite the same look that it did originally in 1930. But there are many other trees on the course (west side of Sheffield Drive) that I wouldn't mind seeing get cut down, because they aren't native to the property or the golf course.
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n34/joshpettit/VC4-1930.jpg)
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Speaking of trees, that distance cheater posted early on makes me think that you need to be either a n amateur dendrologist or a fully-qualified Tree Surgeon to get the right yardages.
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Speaking of trees, that distance cheater posted early on makes me think that you need to be either a n amateur dendrologist or a fully-qualified Tree Surgeon to get the right yardages.
A guest is reputed to have said "You have to be a f*&%#ng arborist to play this course!"
There are also at least three trees marked on the yardage card that are NLE.
That guide used to be printed as part of the scorecard, but no more. Now they have (sacrilegiously) pubished a yardage book. Some of the older members are probably quite indignant.
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Speaking of trees, that distance cheater posted early on makes me think that you need to be either a n amateur dendrologist or a fully-qualified Tree Surgeon to get the right yardages.
Rich, I actually liked using them and didn't have a problem with the distances.
Josh, thanks for posting that picture. I agree with you about the trees with that hole, hence the reason I posted that quote from Hunter. As for the West side trees, I didn't have a problem with them. I agree, a few of them could go, but I didn't mind them all that much. There is alot of width to the corridors from 1, 13, 15-18.
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About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight? Those trees just don't seem to belong.
Considering the fact that those Sycamores were there when MacKenzie first visited the property in 1928, and that he used them as a secondary means of a hazard for the hole, then I would submit that they DO belong. However, the hole doesn't have quite the same look that it did in originally in 1930. But there are many other trees on the course (west side of Sheffield Drive) that I wouldn't mind seeing get cut down, because they aren't native to the property or the golf course.
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n34/joshpettit/VC4-1930.jpg)
Josh,
Wow! I guess I'm quite surprised. Thanks for sharing. The bunkers seem like plenty enough defense for the green. The trees feels like overkill. Worse than having boulders I'd say.
David,
You wouldn't happen to have a ''before'' reference pic to share would you? That would be worth seeing I think.
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About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight? Those trees just don't seem to belong.
Considering the fact that those Sycamores were there when MacKenzie first visited the property in 1928, and that he used them as a secondary means of a hazard for the hole, then I would submit that they DO belong. However, the hole doesn't have quite the same look that it did in originally in 1930. But there are many other trees on the course (west side of Sheffield Drive) that I wouldn't mind seeing get cut down, because they aren't native to the property or the golf course.
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n34/joshpettit/VC4-1930.jpg)
Josh,
Wow! I guess I'm quite surprised. Thanks for sharing. The bunkers seem like plenty enough defense for the green. The trees feels like overkill. Worse than having boulders I'd say.
David,
You wouldn't happen to have a ''before'' reference pic to share would you? That would be worth seeing I think.
No, only what you see here from Josh, which I'm glad he posted.
The trees really don't really come into play as much as you think. Remember, it's only a downhill pitch shot. Here's a few more pics.
From the tee
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/4fromtee.jpg)
Looking back to the tee.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/4frombehindthegreen.jpg)
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Weird...
Josh's "before" pic wasn't loading on my BB.
Josh,
Even more surprising to me is how even back then those trees were sizeable.
It still appears they come into play more than I'd like from viewing the "after" pic from David. Or maybe it's just the vantage point of the pic not doing justice. Not sure. Compare the "before" and "after" and to me it appears more open on the "before". David's obviously working the photoshop again ;D
Here's the real test...
Start a thread titled "What's wrong with this hole ... or not" and post just the pic from David. See what comes back. I wouldn't be surprised if more than one responded about the trees.
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The trees really don't really come into play as much as you think. Remember, it's only a downhill pitch shot. Here's a few more pics.
Those extra frames certainly seem to indicate that. I'm guessing the lens is playing tricks on me ???
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David,
A great reminder of why I love GCA. The mixture of old and new photos along with quotes is fantastic. Cannot wait to see more of the course.
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The sycamores in these photos look just as ghastly as those that litter the property in unfortunate locations at Riviera. At Riv, some of the offending trees are propped up with metal bars that have sycamore camo paint. Aargh. The trees mar an otherwise beautiful landscape, IMHO, and to me it doesn't matter if the trees were there when MacKenzie designed the course. A mistake is a mistake; an old mistake is just older than a new mistake. I'm gonna quit while I'm behind...
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The sycamores in these photos look just as ghastly as those that litter the property in unfortunate locations at Riviera. At Riv, some of the offending trees are propped up with metal bars that have sycamore camo paint. Aargh. The trees mar an otherwise beautiful landscape, IMHO, and to me it doesn't matter if the trees were there when MacKenzie designed the course. A mistake is a mistake; an old mistake is just older than a new mistake. I'm gonna quit while I'm behind...
Terry, in what way did MacKenzie make a mistake?
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Thanks to Wild Bill and "Murf" for one of my most fond memories on a special golf course... at KP 3 side trip. I loved the par 3s and had a nice and unlikely birdie pitch from about 40 yards off the right of 17. What a setting with CH in background.
Murf at 4tee...
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P3290072.jpg)
'Wild Bill' makes the dreams come true...
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P3270066.jpg)
always fun picking one out of the jar after a lucky/nice shot...
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P3290085.jpg)
...shows up at all the best places...
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P3290089.jpg)
I forget the whole story on the landslide hole. It may be the only odd hole out...
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"Welcome Golf Club Atlas Golfers...
Even the Raters"
I love it.
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Great piece David Stamm. Valley Club is a wonderful place. You are very fortunate to have such good friends.
Are some of the bunkers as flat/shallow and of smaller scale as the pictures suggest? How is the bunkering in comparison to the other MacKenzie courses you've played (e.g. CPC and Pasatiempo)? Are the green complexes also a bit more subdued?
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RJ Daley
the landslide hole? I assume that is #10. It is the hole with the most movement (sorry, no pun intended) at Valley Club. Big downhill/sidehill slope from the tee to the shot point, then a second down to the green at the general level of the course.
The crew were doing work up left of the shot-point when I was there in March 2007. Can't recall what they were doing - perhaps just clearing undergrowth (it was a lost ball area up there for sure).
I don't recall any more either.
James B
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Lou, thanks. To answer your questions, the greens are more subdued, but then again they are also smaller in general than either CPC or Pasatiempo. The bunkers are also smaller and not quite as deep. I felt that they fit the course.
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So we now head back towards the hill and the brilliant use of it that really comes into play on the 8th. In reality, the hill is 2 small hills, or a larger one that is split in two, depending on how you look at it. Pay special attention to how MacKenzie and Hunter routed the holes around this simple feature. We start with the 452 yd par 4 7th.
"A first class architect attempts to give the impression that everything has been done by nature and nothing by himself, where as a contractor tries to make as big a splash as possible and impress committees with the amount of labor and material he has put into the job."- Alister MacKenzie
The tee shot
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/7thtee.jpg)
A little closer
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/7thapproach.jpg)
The approach
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/7thgreensite.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/7thgreen2.jpg)
The green from the 5th fw
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/7thgreenfrom5thfw.jpg)
Looking back down the fw..
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/7thgreenlookingback.jpg)
From the 8th tee
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/7thgreenfrom8thtee.jpg)
We now come to the 152 yd par 3 8th, where we play from "hill to hill" with the split mentioned earlier dividing us on the tee from the green.
The tee
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/8thtee.jpg)
Closer
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/8thtee2.jpg)
An vintage photo..
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC8.jpg)
The green from the front
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/8thgreenfront.jpg)
From behind
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/8thgreenbehind.jpg)
From the side
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/8thgreenfrom9thtee.jpg)
We now leave the hill top and turn for Picay Creek. The 431 yd par 4 9th.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/9thtee.jpg)
The approach
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/9thapproach2.jpg)
Looking back
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/9thfwlookingback.jpg)
Greenside
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/9thgreenside.jpg)
From behind the green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/9thgreenfrom10thtee.jpg)
The 10th hole this day was played a par 4, as the club is experimenting to see if it works. It really works better as a par 5. The hole is 478, but plays as long as 485 yds all the way back. This is also the hole that has been referred to by others as the "landslide" hole, as there was a landslide from the hill on the left and it slid across the fw. Rather than trying to move the earth, it was decided to incoporate it into the hole and it was grassed.
The tee shot..
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/10thtee.jpg)
The "slide"
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/10thfw.jpg)
From the top
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/10fromthwtopoffw.jpg)
Closer
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/10approach.jpg)
The greensite
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/10thgreensite.jpg)
Looking back
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/10fwlookingback.jpg)
From behind the green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/10lookingbackfromgreen.jpg)
The beautiful 177 yd par 3 11th.
"All artificial hazards should be made to fit into the ground as if placed there by nature. To accomplish this is a great art. Indeed, when it is really well done, it is- I think it may truly be said- a fine art, worthy of the hand of a gifted sculptor. They should have the appearance of being made with the same carelessness and abandon with which a brook tears down the banks which confine it, or the wind tosses about the sand of the dunes."- Robert Hunter
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/11thtee.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/11thtee2.jpg)
An old photo for comparison
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC11.jpg)
Looking back
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/11thgreen.jpg)
A photo from 1943 during the Victory Garden era and prior to Bell's restoration
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0009.jpg)
We conclude part 2 with the 351 yd par 4 12th.
The tee shot
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/12thtee.jpg)
A little closer
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/12thtee2.jpg)
The strategic bunker
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/12thfw.jpg)
The greensite
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/12thgreensite.jpg)
The green is amongst the smallest on the course, if not the smallest
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/12thgreensite2.jpg)
We'll conclude this presentation in part 3 by crossing over Sheffield again over to the West side and finish the course as the sun sets.
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David
is that bunker on #12 strategic (as stated), or heroic? I'm not sure of the distance from the tee. My suspicion is that it is the latter, for some. I might just lay-up short of it for the best line in from the right. You might go straight over it.
Re #11, one of the critical changes/restorations was the removal of a tree by Doak to return the hole to earlier values. There was a long running discussion about this perhaps a year ago on GCA, including a different old and new photo. It adds something to the story.
I look forward to the comments from others about #9 and the bunkers set into the rear hill behind the green, a ka #13 at Augusta and #13 at CPC. Where is Wayne Morrison for a critical question when you need him?
The routing of holes 3 through 12, the triangulation of the three par 3's around the two hills, the incorporation of the refreshment area and the way that the abutting par4's come and go from these two hills is really worthy of study. David, if you can, can you include the routing diagram (well a small portion therof) to emphasise this brilliance around the two hills.
Great work David.
James B
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David
is that bunker on #12 strategic (as stated), or heroic? I'm not sure of the distance from the tee. My suspicion is that it is the latter, for some. I might just lay-up short of it for the best line in from the right. You might go straight over it.
Re #11, one of the critical changes/restorations was the removal of a tree by Doak to return the hole to earlier values. There was a long running discussion about this perhaps a year ago on GCA, including a different old and new photo. It adds something to the story.
I look forward to the comments from others about #9 and the bunkers set into the rear hill behind the green, a ka #13 at Augusta and #13 at CPC. Where is Wayne Morrison for a critical question when you need him?
The routing of holes 3 through 12, the triangulation of the three par 3's around the two hills, the incorporation of the refreshment area and the way that the abutting par4's come and go from these two hills is really worthy of study. David, if you can, can you include the routing diagram (well a small portion therof) to emphasise this brilliance around the two hills.
Great work David.
James B
James, I'll help David here. This is the routing map from his initial post:
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0008.jpg)
The first hill has the 3rd green backing up to it, the 4th and 8th tees on it, the 10th green and 11th tee next to it. The second hill has the 8th green and 9th tee on it, and the 7th hole sort of bends around it. There's only about 150 yards from the 8th tee to 8th green, so these hills are close together.
That's a lot of action for two smallish hills!
I haven't been to Royal Melbourne, but it does seem that there are similar hills there.
With regard to the fairway bunker on #12, some say it's entirely new, but you can make it out on the routing plan above. I don't think you can call it 'heroic,' as the carry is only about 190 from the middle of the one tee, but it's really irritated the ladies, who have a hard time carrying it and are forced to go left, bringing the trees and hill in the dogleg into play. The best line off the tee is down the right side, so I think you'd have to call that bunker 'strategic.'
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David
is that bunker on #12 strategic (as stated), or heroic? I'm not sure of the distance from the tee. My suspicion is that it is the latter, for some. I might just lay-up short of it for the best line in from the right. You might go straight over it.
Thanks James! As for the bunker, wouldn't the description you gave imply a strategic decision? I think with today's distances, however, the bunker can be carried easily (I played from the tips, hit 3 wood right over it and had a SW in from the right side), so it does change the nature of the hole. I would imagine when it was first designed it was a decision that had to be made. If memory serves, this was one the holes that was actually lengthened.
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Bill
thanks for the re-post of the map. Notice how the 3 par-3 tees are so close together, and the line of play triangulates away from each other. It must be a fantastic spot to watch club match-play events mid-round.
Regarding the bunker on #12 - thanks for the distance. My understanding of strategic was a bunker that the closer you played to the better the line of play. By contrast, a heroic bunker combined the strategic aspects (in that a better line was obtained by playing near it) but that a significant benefit was obtained by carrying the heroic hazard.
Doak referred to Ausgusta #11, #12 and #13 as holes containing the penal/strategic/heroic holes.
- The greenside water hazard on #11 was strategic, as a ball played close to it received a benefit whereas the bail out (to Larry Mize chip-in territory) was meant to involve a significant penealty in comparison.
- Rae's creek in front of #12 was a penal hazard, as it can't be avoided.
- Rae's creek on the shot point of #13 was a heroic hazard, as a significant benefit came from those who carried the creek, whilst conferring some benefit on those who played close to the creek (as it allows a better line of play for the second).
Of course, Rae's Creek than became the ultimate hazard for the approach to the green, as it embodies all three characteristics - a heroic outcome for the person who goes for the green in two, a strategic outcome for the person who lays up short but is close to the creek (as it provides an easier line of approach to the green compared to the person who lays up wide and right) and finally a penal test for the third shot (as the hazard must be carried).
Under that definition, I suggest the bunker on Valley Club #12 is a 'small h' heroic, not dissimilar in function to the bunker at CPC on the #2 lhs. Perhaps not a bunker that some of us would brag about carrying, but still heroic in purpose. I suspect I would be VERY happy to carry that bunker when it was played into a slight breeze.
James B
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Nice work sir.
I found #12 compelling in that the green opens up the longer and closer to the creek you dare to go. Play up the left and have perhaps a shorter shot, but you are effectively blind and the "Huckaby angles" are all screwed with respect to the running shot. I would love to spend some time there play it multiple ways, and crack the code. Thinking you could hit 3-5 different clubs off the tee and play out a very interesting golf hole with any one of them.
Unfortunately the bunker at the 190 mark, with today's equipment....is effectively meaningless. Having said that, kudos to the club for not bringing in Fazio to put bunkers between 220 and 280 on the right side adjacent to the creek ;).
#11 is one of the more stunning greensites I have seen on a short hole. My only gripe was that it was the 3rd short iron in a row into a par 3.
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Nice work sir.
I found #12 compelling in that the green opens up the longer and closer to the creek you dare to go. Play up the left and have perhaps a shorter shot, but you are effectively blind and the "Huckaby angles" are all screwed with respect to the running shot. I would love to spend some time there play it multiple ways, and crack the code. Thinking you could hit 3-5 different clubs off the tee and play out a very interesting golf hole with any one of them.
Unfortunately the bunker at the 190 mark, with today's equipment....is effectively meaningless. Having said that, kudos to the club for not bringing in Fazio to put bunkers between 220 and 280 on the right side adjacent to the creek ;).
#11 is one of the more stunning greensites I have seen on a short hole. My only gripe was that it was the 3rd short iron in a row into a par 3.
Maybe for you - I hit hybrid 4-iron to the back left corner of the green! IIRC it was playing 175 yards.
James, nice analysis of #12 fairway bunker. Since you do have to carry the bunker 'heroically' to get that 'strategic' benefit, it may be a hybrid feature! ;D
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.
#11 is one of the more stunning greensites I have seen on a short hole. My only gripe was that it was the 3rd short iron in a row into a par 3.
Jon, I agree with you to a point. The only deficiency I see with the par 3's is the fact that you have (if from the tips), a wedge, 8 iron, 7 iron, 6 or 7 iron. Not as diverse a collection as CPC or Pasa, but individually, they are great holes.
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I think grassing over the "slide" on the 10th was a good call. It was probably easier and more cost effective, but it actually adds more interest and when you reach the top ... nice panorama into the green.
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I thought that bunker on 12 looked new.
IMO the hole worked just fine before, hugging the right side you bring the creek into play but gain a better angle into the green. Anyways, it was one of my favorites there.
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That fairway bunker was not there in March 2007!
Here is a photo of the 7th tee, with the sixth green in the background. The short grass usage is apparent (yes, that is a tee-marker, not a golf ball in the foreground).
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/P1050023a.jpg)
I am looking forward to #13 and #14 (and #15 for that matter).
James B
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I think grassing over the "slide" on the 10th was a good call. It was probably easier and more cost effective, but it actually adds more interest and when you reach the top ... nice panorama into the green.
Patrick
I couldn't agree more. Once I saw the "slide" it occurred to me that most of the rest of the course could do with a slide.
It looks to me like left of the 11th has been seriously regraded. I prefer the old look with a kick in from the left. If the hole was changed, was it because of drainage issues?
Ciao
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That fairway bunker was not there in March 2007!
I don't remember that bunker ever, even back in the '60s. Ditto for the short fairway bunker on #15 that was on the original plans but grassed over decades ago.
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Unfortunately the bunker at the 190 mark, with today's equipment....is effectively meaningless. Having said that, kudos to the club for not bringing in Fazio to put bunkers between 220 and 280 on the right side adjacent to the creek ;).
Jon:
You may not know this, but I'll ask anyway. To what extent is the fariway bunker on #12 strategic and/or heroic for the membership? At 195 yds, even with today's equipment, it seems well-placed for most golfers -- a solid carry for those willing to be bold and risky, but also room to go around or slot a tee shot between the bunker and left rough.
It looks like a marvelous hole; lots of stuff going on in interesting ways for a shortish par 4.
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Shame that the Valley Club is so far up the road or you guys would no doubtedly included it in the KP this year. ;D ;D
I really like the greensite on the 11th, but think I like the version shown in the old photo even better. The rough, gnarly hill looks like it's just off the back of the green in that pic.
Again, great job mixing quotes with old & new pics. I do love this quote:
"A first class architect attempts to give the impression that everything has been done by nature and nothing by himself, where as a contractor tries to make as big a splash as possible and impress committees with the amount of labor and material he has put into the job."- Alister MacKenzie
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That fairway bunker was not there in March 2007!
I don't remember that bunker ever, even back in the '60s. Ditto for the short fairway bunker on #15 that was on the original plans but grassed over decades ago.
Bill
that short fairway bunker on #15 comprised two bunkers in March 2007 - I was looking at the pic last night. It is a tiny little thing. It wasn't grassed over two years ago.
James B
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That fairway bunker was not there in March 2007!
I don't remember that bunker ever, even back in the '60s. Ditto for the short fairway bunker on #15 that was on the original plans but grassed over decades ago.
that short fairway bunker on #15 comprised two bunkers in March 2007 - I was looking at the pic last night. It is a tiny little thing. It wasn't grassed over two years ago.
James B
That's about when they put in the bunker on #15, #12 sometime in 2008. Neither was there three years ago, restoration in progress!
Bill
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We now conclude our look at The Valley Club by crossing over to the West side of Sheffield and stepping onto the 13th tee. As stated earlier, the land is more subdued (with the exception of 14) on this side, but the work done is no less impressive. There wasn't much to work with on this side, but somehow MacKenzie and Hunter were able to make some very memorable holes.
We start with a medium length 383 yd par 4 that's green is slightly uphill. The land is non descript, but the hole is not.
"No hole is a good one unless it has one or more hazards in a direct line of a hole. Max Behr, who is one of the best American golf architects, states that the direct line to the hole is the line of instinct, and to make a good hole you must break up that line in order to create the line of charm."- Alister MacKenzie
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/13thtee.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/13thfw.jpg)
Closer to the bunker that "breaks up the line"
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/13greensite.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/13greensite2.jpg)
The green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/13green.jpg)
The downhill 179 yd par 3 14th. The greensite is located near the 2nd tee and 1st green, where the photo previously shown on this presentation highlighted the closely mown areas around the greens and tees.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/14thtee.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/14thtee2.jpg)
And a couple of vintage photos for comparison
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC142.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC14.jpg)
Looking back to the tee.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/14thgreenfrom1st.jpg)
We now head towards the clubhouse with the 510 yd par 5 15th.
"The bunkers on the route of the scratch player are evidently not there to punish his bad shots-some of his worst will surely escape them. There are there to call forth the best that is in him. To his weaker brethren they may be the voice of the tempter and the song of the Siren, but to him they are rowels which goad him on to acheivements that seem divine. These are the hazards that make golf dramatic. Without them there would be no enduring life in the sport, no vital interest, no delectable thrills- nothing worthwhile to achieve nor anything worthy to be conquered."- Robert Hunter
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/15thteeshot.jpg)
After an ideal tee shot
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/15thapproach.jpg)
Closer to the green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/15thapproach2.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/15thapproach3.jpg)
The green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/15green.jpg)
To the right of the green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/15thgreensidebunkersme.jpg)
The green from the 16th tee
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/15greenbehind.jpg)
We now head back down the slope and will return shortly to complete the round. The difficult 460 yd par 4 16th.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/16thteeshot.jpg)
Looking out towards the 17th green
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/1617channelislands.jpg)
If drawn too much off the tee, the bunker that awaits
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/16thfwbunker.jpg)
From the fw
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/16thfromfwcenter.jpg)
Closer
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/16thapproach.jpg)
Looking back
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/16thgreen.jpg)
The 381 yd par 4 17th.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/17thteeshot.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/17thapproach.jpg)
The cross bunkers
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/17thfwbunkering.jpg)
The greensite
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/17thapproachJS.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/17thgreensideclubhouse.jpg)
Looking back
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/17thlookingback.jpg)
We now come to the conclusion of our journey with the 411 yd par 4 18th. Just to the left of the tee in this first photo is the green that is used as an extra par 3 for those wishing to play nine on the West side of Sheffield. One must pick their line carefully when climbing back up to the clubhouse, as there are many hazards to contend with.
"A hazard placed in the exact position where a player would naturally go is frequently in the most interesting situation, as then a special effort is needed to get over or avoid it."- Alister MacKenzie
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thteeshot.jpg)
Closer to the bunkers that must be hit over or around.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thteeshotcloser.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thfwcrossbunkers.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thfwcrossbunkers2.jpg)
If the bunkers are cleared
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thapproach.jpg)
From the left
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thbunkers2fwset.jpg)
Closer to the hazards
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thgreensite.jpg)
The greensite
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thgreen.jpg)
From the 16th tee
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thgreenfrom16tee.jpg)
The perfect ending to a perfect day
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/18thgreensunset.jpg)
Thus ends our tour of a truly great course by one of golf's all time greatest architects and his very capable assistant. Valley Club is also a truly special place with a wonderful aura about it. It is elegant, and although the land is different on both sides of Sheffield, it flows harmoniously. We know MacKenzie to be truly great at taking advantage of natural features such as the 2 hills on the East side, but I was just as impressed with what he was able to extract from an essentially featureless area of ground on the West side, an area of his design ability that is overlooked. The greens are smaller and more subtle than CPC or Pasatiempo, two of his other California masterpieces, but they fit the course. The bunkers are less rough edged than CPC or Pasatiempo, but it appears from the old photos that they were accurately reproduced, from what I can tell. They are of a more rounded nature and this was the hand of Hunter at work. But above all, the routing is brilliant to me, one of the best I've seen. The way the 2 hills are used and the way that the holes flow below the clubhouse without being boring on the basically flat ground is fantastic. And as mentioned at the start, the French Norman style clubhouse is one of the best I've experienced and compliments the course very well. If pressed with the question, "If you could be a member anywhere....", The Valley Club would be in the running and I'm not sure if it wouldn't come out on top. It affirms my admiration for Mackenzie all the more and I felt very lucky to experience such a sublime place with such great company. The day after playing, I couldn't help but think of these two quotes by MacKenzie and Hunter that epitomize The Valley Club.
"It by no means follows that what appears to be attractive at first sight will be so permanently. A good golf course grows on one like a good painting, good music, or any other artistic creation."
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0003-1.jpg)
"Do not let certain standards become an obsession. Quality, not length; interest, not the number of holes; distinction, not the size in the greens-these things are worth striving for."
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/RDC-DARKENTRIAFORM0004-1.jpg)
Note: I want to thank Jon Spaulding for allowing me to use alot of his pictures for this presentation. Thanks bud!
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Thanks David - this is great work.
I do not recall playing a course with tee areas that are mown at the same height as the fairway and flow directly into them in places.
Is it a bit strange at first?
Is this a walking only course? Great to see all the lads with their push carts. Seems like the VC is a real classic - ie) a very unique experience
Is it strange at first?
Im, sorry I really did laugh when I read that. But seriously its one of those things that makes you wonder why every course doesn't do it. And then you realize that cart paths and lawyers ruined it for everyone. After seeing it on the 3rd or 4th holes, (maybe both) I was sold. Glad to see it continued throughout the round when possible.
Ill post some of my pictures when i get a chance.
Nice thread David.
Why every golf course doesn't do it?
Ryan,
How do you budget for an additional dozen or so acres of .350-.500 cut turf?
Who will bear that cost?
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Kyle, Its obviously not going to happen on every hole. And certainly not when there are 2 minute cart drives to the next tee. 3rd it will take about 1/100th of the time to mow as opposed to "hand" mowing 4 or 5 different tee boxes on every hole.
I don't know where you are seeing additional maintenance costs? Help me out here.
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Kyle, Its obviously not going to happen on every hole. And certainly not when there are 2 minute cart drives to the next tee. 3rd it will take about 1/100th of the time to mow as opposed to "hand" mowing 4 or 5 different tee boxes on every hole.
I don't know where you are seeing additional maintenance costs? Help me out here.
Fertilizer and pesticides. Short grass is more disease prone.
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David
An excellent and thorough tour and thanks for committing the time and effort to bring this to us.
A couple of comments. You state:
"Thus ends our tour of a truly great course by one of golf's all time greatest architects and his very capable assistant."
Given that Mackenzie relied on Hunter to be the "project architect" if you like, and oversee its construction, so much so that Hunter moved to Santa Barbara and joined the club, would it be fair do you think to give Hunter top-billing here - with Mackenzie more as Hunter's assistant? Or is that an exaggeration in the opposite direction? While the Valley Club was being designed and built in late 1928 and 1929 (opening on Dec 30 1929), Mackenzie was very busy, and travelling frequently. Hunter was able to devote time to the Valley Club project, something that Mackenzie was unable to do. The experience out here in Australia is that Mackenzie relied on Russell to get Royal Melbourne designed and built (by Morcom) in his absence and I see a similar thing with Hunter in California, especially Valley Club which appears to have been a project that captured Hunter's heart and soul. Interested to hear your thoughts on this.
The last item is a small one, in your photos of Hole 18, the drive bunkers appear to have fairway running right up to the front of them, giving the impression of them jutting out into the fairway. The second shot bunkers on the left, appear lost in a swathe of rough and look divorced from the fairway. I have to question such different treatment of fairway bunkers on the same hole. Your thoughts?
Well done again and makes me want to jump on a plane and come play VC.
cheers
Neil
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Neil:
I think I can get you on The Valley Club if you come across again. However, I will not do it if you continue to embark upon who deserves first billing for the golf course. Dr. MacKenzie was not there very much ... the same as Augusta National or Royal Melbourne or Cypress Point or any course he built apart from Alwoodley and Pasatiempo. Each of those had different collaborators ... and each has only one thing in common.
Others:
There were a number of comments about the "landslide" on hole 10 and some of the work done on hole 11. The hillside to the left of those two holes (and number 12) is composed of an unstable clay soil that has proven its capriciousness over the years. The original bunkering on number 11 was wiped out by a mudslide in the mid 1930's, before the creek to the right washed out the green site and forced it to be entirely rebuilt. We did the best we could to restore it, considering that we were working off a different baseline. As for #10, I advised the club that working in the landing area seemed pointless when it is highly possible the clay will slide again sometime in the next ten years.
Also, note that Jon Spaulding's criticism of the three par-3's being of similar length is partly the result of James Bennett's observation that two of those three have tees which back into the same hillside, making them impossible to lengthen. (The other par-3 in question is #14, whose back tee is up against the property line.)
Also, if anyone has a copy of my oft-criticized bio of MacKenzie, you'll find an analysis of the routing of The Valley Club and how it uses the two hills as discussed here.
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Tom
My comments about Mackenzie and Hunter and how they worked together were not intended to denigrate anyone at the expense of another. I was just trying to better understand the dynamics of how these two worked in partnership. If you re-read what I wrote I was posing this as a question to David, not making a sweeping statement. This is what I wrote:
"would it be fair do you think to give Hunter top-billing here - with Mackenzie more as Hunter's assistant? Or is that an exaggeration in the opposite direction?"
I am certainly not "embarking" upon anything regarding credit for this course, I was just commenting on David's use of the phrase "capable assistant", as I think Hunter was quite a bit more than that. Of course the common element was Mackenzie.
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Neil:
I think I can get you on The Valley Club if you come across again. However, I will not do it if you continue to embark upon who deserves first billing for the golf course. Dr. MacKenzie was not there very much ... the same as Augusta National or Royal Melbourne or Cypress Point or any course he built apart from Alwoodley and Pasatiempo. Each of those had different collaborators ... and each has only one thing in common.
Others:
There were a number of comments about the "landslide" on hole 10 and some of the work done on hole 11. The hillside to the left of those two holes (and number 12) is composed of an unstable clay soil that has proven its capriciousness over the years. The original bunkering on number 11 was wiped out by a mudslide in the mid 1930's, before the creek to the right washed out the green site and forced it to be entirely rebuilt. We did the best we could to restore it, considering that we were working off a different baseline. As for #10, I advised the club that working in the landing area seemed pointless when it is highly possible the clay will slide again sometime in the next ten years.
Also, note that Jon Spaulding's criticism of the three par-3's being of similar length is partly the result of James Bennett's observation that two of those three have tees which back into the same hillside, making them impossible to lengthen. (The other par-3 in question is #14, whose back tee is up against the property line.)
Also, if anyone has a copy of my oft-criticized bio of MacKenzie, you'll find an analysis of the routing of The Valley Club and how it uses the two hills as discussed here.
Dr Mackenzie was without a doubt the inspirational force behind all the courses with which he's associated. He was fortunate to have such gifted local talent to bring the projects into reality, but he deserves full credit and top billing for his entire portfolio.
IMHO of course!
With regard to the length of the par 3s, I think #11 and #14 play more alike than the front nine par 3s. Only a young flat belly like Jon would think of #11 as a short iron hole! It's 176 from the middle of the tee if I recall correctly. Only to the top 1% of players is that a short iron. #14 is just slightly shorter.
#4 is indeed a short par 3, downhill as it is. #8 is just a bit longer but plays at least a club more because of the slightly uphill nature of the shot.
So there is, at least for the average player, quite a bit of variety between the par 3s. What they have in common is being part of a quartet of outstanding short holes.
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http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/California (http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/California)
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David
An excellent and thorough tour and thanks for committing the time and effort to bring this to us.
A couple of comments. You state:
"Thus ends our tour of a truly great course by one of golf's all time greatest architects and his very capable assistant."
Given that Mackenzie relied on Hunter to be the "project architect" if you like, and oversee its construction, so much so that Hunter moved to Santa Barbara and joined the club, would it be fair do you think to give Hunter top-billing here - with Mackenzie more as Hunter's assistant? Or is that an exaggeration in the opposite direction? While the Valley Club was being designed and built in late 1928 and 1929 (opening on Dec 30 1929), Mackenzie was very busy, and travelling frequently. Hunter was able to devote time to the Valley Club project, something that Mackenzie was unable to do. The experience out here in Australia is that Mackenzie relied on Russell to get Royal Melbourne designed and built (by Morcom) in his absence and I see a similar thing with Hunter in California, especially Valley Club which appears to have been a project that captured Hunter's heart and soul. Interested to hear your thoughts on this.
The last item is a small one, in your photos of Hole 18, the drive bunkers appear to have fairway running right up to the front of them, giving the impression of them jutting out into the fairway. The second shot bunkers on the left, appear lost in a swathe of rough and look divorced from the fairway. I have to question such different treatment of fairway bunkers on the same hole. Your thoughts?
Well done again and makes me want to jump on a plane and come play VC.
cheers
Neil
Neil, I think Hunters role in relation to the effort cannot be underestimated. Afterall, he wrote one of the best (AM stated THE best) books on the subject and MacKenzie trusted him to carry out the work. However, as Tom pointed out, there is a constant throughout AM's career. While he has been very fortunate to have the right men at the right time at the right places, the ablility to identify that sort of individual and communicate what he wanted is a talent that AM obviously possesed in spades. The role Hunter played at Valley Club was important, but I feel that MacKenzie was the designer and allowed Hunter some self expression along the way, just like Thomas and Bell.
As for the second set of FW bunkers, keep in mind that just to the left is the practice range. I do agree to some extent that it seems to make more sense to maintain that area in the foreground at fw height. It would seem to me that the blindness that those bunkers create should one go too far left after carrying the first set would be sufficent enough penalty. Perhaps Tom can offer some insight to this.
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Thanks for the reply David.
Mackenzie certainly had that ability to select and then communicate with his partners, the end results are testimony to that. And thanks for the comments on the 18th, its hard to pick up the hole's feel just from photos but I was curious of the different treatment those two fairway bunker complexes received.
Neil
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(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/VC8.jpg)
I find this Dali-esque "sliding" aspect of Mackenzie and Hunter's CA designs, incorporating bunkers into the visual, very interesting. He / they did this, memorably, at Cypress and Pebble 8 green, too, didn't they?
I understand Tom Doak's explanation of why this design element has been lost but it is a shame just the same. What do you suppose was the design intent or purpose behind creating this sliding effect, as well as the apparent use of bunkers to highlight it?
Does anyone else find it reminiscent of Dali's clocks?
Mark
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Mark
I think it was the photographer that was sliding in that shot. He probably ended up at the bottom of the barranca. As for Dali, the best GCA imitation of melting clocks I have ever seen was the whole of Painswick, which is why I gifted them one with the money I raised from participants at BUDA II. Hmmm....persistence of memory. I can remember every hole at Painswick in psychedelic detail. What other courses are like that? Valley Club? Maybe.....
Rich
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Mark
Have to agree with Rich - the photo clearly has not been taken with a horizontal horizon - see the golfers as a check, they are all sloping to the right. But I do understand the principle of what you are getting at. Gravity defying bunkers! How do they stay there?
Anyway, I popped the photo into iPhoto which has a correction tool for this and straightened it up - the correction rotation was 2.1 degrees by the way - and here's the result. Definitely less Dali-esque!
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/VC8crop.jpg)
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Neil and Rich
The archetype in my mind are his bunkers on Pebble 8, but even after truing up that old photo it seems clear to me:
a) originally this effect existed on the hole;
b) today the effect has been eradicated.
Doesn't today's green look flatter and "benched" into the hillside, plus the bunkers more "fighting" the slope rather than lying on it:
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/8thtee2.jpg)
Maybe it's down to the angle of the current photo, or the effect of the trees. But I don't think so!
Mark
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Bump by request.
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Mark,
I can't remember who pointed it out, but Doak's 4th at St. Andrews Beach is certainly Dali-esque.
TK
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Tyler
That's a par 3 on a hillside, too, isn't it? Do you have any pics?
Mark
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Neil and Rich
The archetype in my mind are his bunkers on Pebble 8, but even after truing up that old photo it seems clear to me:
a) originally this effect existed on the hole;
b) today the effect has been eradicated.
Doesn't today's green look flatter and "benched" into the hillside, plus the bunkers more "fighting" the slope rather than lying on it:
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/8thtee2.jpg)
Maybe it's down to the angle of the current photo, or the effect of the trees. But I don't think so!
Mark
Mark
Maybe its just the angle, but in the newer photo it looks to me like the land may be slightly lifted to lessen the slope immediately below the right bunkers right where that brown straight line of grass (new drainage laid?) is. This may also have something to do with the cart path. Maybe that are was leveled a bit and the fill placed higher to ease the grade (for drainage reasons?) toward the path.
Ciao
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Sean:
The drainage lines visible in the last picture are just picking up the water from the drains in the bunkers; there wasn't any surface drainage work done below the bunkers in our work. The grade down by the cart path may have been raised a bit years ago, I don't know.
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A group from New South Wales is visiting the Valley Club with a view towards establishing a reciprocal arrangement. It will be the first US reciprocal for NSWGC.
After looking through David and Jon's wonderful shots and hole by hole descriptions, I'm fervently hoping no-one from NSWGC throws up on the Valley Club carpet or insults the president's wife. :)
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I went to UCSB and had some family friends that lived in Montecito so drove by the course many times and always wondered about how great a course this was and how I could get on. The photos and aerials are fantastic. Who knows, one of these days I will run into the guy who can get me on.
Given the weather, location in the Santa Barbara, let alone Montecito, this is just an awesome place.
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Thanks for the reply David.
Mackenzie certainly had that ability to select and then communicate with his partners, the end results are testimony to that.
Mackenzie apparently visited the site on which New South Wales is built, then went back to his accommodations at Royal Sydney and sketched a routing with topographical map. When it was referred to during the course building (Mackenzie having long left Australia) it did not vary from the actual terrain by more than three feet. Having what amounted to a photographic memory for land forms might also explain why so many of his courses turned out so well even though he visited the sites less than a handful of times.
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David,
Thank you for posting--I hadn't had much of a chance to follow this thread until this morning but appreciate the chance to learn about the photos and history of the course. I am supposed to play the course in June and needless to say am very excited!
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I just went through this tour de force again. It deserves another look. Once again David, cheers.
Ciao
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Thanks, Sean. I've since been back again and it only reinforced by feelings on the course. What a place.
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I just wanted to confirm with those who know the club, is the area I have within the red line below an accurate capture of The Valley Club?
It has always confused me trying to work out what was The Valley Club and what was the adjoining club seeing as what seems to be the western parcel of The Valley Club is marked as Birnham Wood. But going by the map David posted, I'm thinking it definitely isn't.
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Yes Scott - that's pretty much the boundaries of the Valley Club though I think you are one hole out near Forge Road
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Bump. I thought it might be interesting to see a comparison of the appearance of the bunkers last year compared to Scott's recent visit.
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I just wanted to confirm with those who know the club, is the area I have within the red line below an accurate capture of The Valley Club?
It has always confused me trying to work out what was The Valley Club and what was the adjoining club seeing as what seems to be the western parcel of The Valley Club is marked as Birnham Wood. But going by the map David posted, I'm thinking it definitely isn't.
Birnam Wood is an RTJ (II I think) course on a very small parcel directly adjacent north of the 2nd hole par 5, across a massive hedge that runs the entire length of the left side of #2.
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Amazingly excellent photos of a wonderful place!!! And terrific commentary. Well done!! Thank you.
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David,
I had not seen this tour. Nice work. I was lucky enough to play there yesterday for the first time. What a wonderful place! I will tell you one thing, I can't get over how green and lush the course is in your photos. I guess that's what the members were talking about. I couldn't believe how wonderfully firm and fast the course was yesterday, is now and how great the contrast is between what your photos show and what you see visually now. the fairways are yellow brown and it's just a wonderful site.
Droughts are of course terrible but Valley Club is one club that has greatly benefitted from the lack of water from the perspective of playability and aesthetics in my opinion.
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David:
The Valley Club is at least one example of a California club being proactive about the water crisis in the state. They've changed all their fairways from a mixture of grasses to Santa Ana bermuda, which is also used by many Melbourne clubs because it requires the least water of any warm season grass. And they also let the fairways go dormant in winter now, instead of overseeding.
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Great Post