Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Matt_Ward on May 27, 2008, 10:39:12 AM

Title: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 27, 2008, 10:39:12 AM: Had the opportunity to see a previous Golf World that highlighted the top 10 underrated architects of the 20th century. It seems little doubt to me that Ron Whitten has a major hand on the listing.

The listing is from 1999 and clearly does not include a few recent names from designers of courses that opened after that time frame.

Makes for an interesting listing -- I'll be sure to note correct answers when they come in. The top choice is indeed a surprising one for me.

As an FYI -- only two of the top ten are still living.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Brad Tufts on May 27, 2008, 11:07:20 AM: Joe Lee?
Dick Wilson?
Desmond Muirhead?
Herbert Strong?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 27, 2008, 11:13:31 AM: Brad:

Good try -- only one makes the listing ...

Herb Strong -- finished at #3

"Most inventive. His island green in Ponte Vedra, FL gained nationa publicity 50 years before Pete Dye. Also invented the pull cart."
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on May 27, 2008, 11:14:58 AM: Fowler?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mike_Cirba on May 27, 2008, 11:16:38 AM: Devereux Emmett should probably head that list.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Brad Tufts on May 27, 2008, 11:17:56 AM: Maybe I'm shooting too obscure...

Macdonald
Raynor

Surely MacKenzie and Ross can't be on the list...nor can RTJ.

Geoffrey Cornish?

Travis?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: BCrosby on May 27, 2008, 11:18:40 AM: Among US architects:

Langford
Leeds
Dick Wilson
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Craig Van Egmond on May 27, 2008, 11:19:44 AM: Walter Travis. ;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 27, 2008, 11:25:07 AM: Craig:

Good mention of Travis = gets the #2 position.

"Australian-born, took up golf at age 36 and won three U.S. Amateurs. No designer created more ferocious bunkers. See Garden City (NY) and Hollywood (NJ)."

BCrosby:

Good mention of Langford= gets the #6 position.

"Langford's 12-foot-deep bunkers with flat bottoms at Culver Academy and Harrison Hills in Indiana so impressed Pete Dye that he adopted that style."

Gents:

All the others named thus far are not on the listing ...
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Greg Krueger on May 27, 2008, 11:26:35 AM: How about Willie Park.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Craig Van Egmond on May 27, 2008, 11:29:39 AM: Looks like Brad beat me to Travis actually...

Is Pete Dye one of the living?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on May 27, 2008, 11:30:04 AM: Braid?
Simpson?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mike Hendren on May 27, 2008, 11:33:27 AM: Hurdzan?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on May 27, 2008, 11:36:54 AM: perry maxwell?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: BCrosby on May 27, 2008, 11:38:51 AM: If Whitten did the list, then I change my votes to:

Joe Burbeck
Billy Payne
Hootie Johnson
Tim Finchem
Whoever it was who designed ANGC. ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Steve Hyden on May 27, 2008, 11:51:09 AM: Stiles and maybe Van Kleek
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Billsteele on May 27, 2008, 03:31:20 PM: Just because much of his work was in Canada, I'll throw out Stanley Thompson as a possibility.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on May 27, 2008, 05:50:33 PM: Ted Robinson?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 27, 2008, 06:05:16 PM: Bill Diddel?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Andrew Summerell on May 27, 2008, 06:09:55 PM: I'm assuming no other Pre-WWII Australian architects like Alex Russell or Eric Apperly made the list.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Phil McDade on May 27, 2008, 06:47:05 PM: Willie Watson

Herbert Tweedie

Charles Alison
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: David Sneddon on May 27, 2008, 07:33:00 PM: Quote from: Garland Bayley on May 27, 2008, 06:05:16 PM
Bill Diddel?

That's the name I would have thrown into the hat.

Playing his Kenwood GC in Cincinatti in July, in the Sr Am Qualifier.

David
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: SPDB on May 27, 2008, 09:14:13 PM: I would also guess that Hugh Alison is going to be on that list, as will Perry Maxwell, likewise Wayne Stiles. If we're going obscure, I'll guess that Vernon Macan gets a nod.

For my money, its definitely Tom Simpson.

But underrated is a relative term, and given his audience, I would not be surprised to see William Flynn in there or Harry Colt. Colt, Braid and OTM are the most underappreciated architects of all time, relative to the contribution of each to the development of the aesthetic.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: John Burzynski on May 27, 2008, 09:33:02 PM: Quote from: Garland Bayley on May 27, 2008, 06:05:16 PM
Bill Diddel?

I third that suggestion...I have sought to play many of Diddel's courses, most of which are in the Midwest (Indiana my home state has quite a few), and my home course is a Diddel course. The courses of his that I have played all seem to have challenging greens, and many are accessible muni's or public - privte owned courses.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: BCrosby on May 28, 2008, 09:08:30 AM: Matt -

It occurred to me that if the list was done in 1999, then a number of people now well known weren't then. Thus I would add to the guesses above:

Doak
C&C
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Rich Goodale on May 28, 2008, 09:36:31 AM: Eddie Hackett
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Adam Clayman on May 28, 2008, 09:36:53 AM: Behr?

Tucker?

Marty Johnson?
;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: wsmorrison on May 28, 2008, 09:51:13 AM: If the list is from 1999, William Flynn probably wouldn't even make it on the radar screen of underrated architects let alone be named one.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 28, 2008, 10:06:23 AM: Xenophon G. Hassenplug had better be on that list or there is going to be trouble!
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 28, 2008, 11:18:37 AM: BCrosby:

There is no C&C or Doak answer to the question.

Ditto the likes of Flynn, Wilson.

Gents:

I'll be filling in the other answers that have been posted in the last day or so.

Keep'em coming ... what's surprising is how the living folks have been really missed thus far.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Craig Van Egmond on May 28, 2008, 11:23:41 AM: Arthur Hills!
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 28, 2008, 11:25:21 AM: Craig:

Please help me stop laughing -- if anything Art Hills is anything but underrated. ;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 28, 2008, 11:29:24 AM: You going to get a list going Matt so we can see how things stack up so far?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Adam Clayman on May 28, 2008, 11:30:39 AM: Matt, making us wait for the answers to a nine year old list is a bit odd.

Is there anything to you saying it's Whitten and Golf World?

I'll try Jim Engh as a living one?

Bendelow?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Craig Van Egmond on May 28, 2008, 11:39:23 AM: Sorry Matt, there isn't a sarcasm emoticon. Plus I'm trying to cut back.

Anybody mention Tom Fazio yet?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Ken McGlynn on May 28, 2008, 12:30:37 PM: Mr. Pat Ruddy....for the wonder that is the European Club!
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 28, 2008, 02:00:28 PM: Time for an update ...

No way does Tom Fazio make the listing. Ditto Rees Jones or his brother or father.

SPDB, et al:

Congrats on the Tom Simpson pick -- #1 on the overall list !

"British designer as flamboyant as A.W. Tillinghast in design and lifestyle. If he'd done any courses in America, we'd be hailing him as another Alister Mackenzie."

David S, Garland B, et al:

Congrats on the mentioning of William H. Diddel.

"His cleverly contoured putting surfaces from Wichita to Hot Springs are comparabable to those done by the master of green slopes, Perry Maxwell."

SPDB:

Congrats on mentioning ... Wayne Stiles.

"People still mistake his many New England designs, like Taconic in MA and Nashua in NH, as those of Donald Ross."

* * *

Recapping the listed people thus far ...

#1 = Tom Simpson (1886-1964)

#2 = Walter Travis (1861-1927)

#3 = Herbert Strong (1879-1944)

#4 =

#5 = William H. Diddel (1884-1985)

#6 = William B. Langford (1887-1977)

#7 = Wayne Stiles (1884-1953)

#8 = ?

#9 = ?

#10 = ?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Kirk Gill on May 28, 2008, 02:14:31 PM: Phelps?

Bell?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 28, 2008, 02:21:13 PM: Kirk G:

Congrats ...

You didn't flush out the complete Bell name but you will receive credit !

William P. Bell ... "The man behind George C. Thomas Jr.'s California masterpieces like Riviera. Also designed terrific courses like LaJolla and Stanford."

Mr. Bell is the #4 listed person.

#1 = Tom Simpson (1886-1964)

#2 = Walter Travis (1861-1927)

#3 = Herbert Strong (1879-1944)

#4 = William P. Bell (1886-1953)

#5 = William H. Diddel (1884-1985)

#6 = William B. Langford (1887-1977)

#7 = Wayne Stiles (1884-1953)

#8 = ?

#9 = ?

#10 = ?

Good luck guys with the remaining three -- they get VERY tough !!!
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: jim_lewis on May 28, 2008, 02:27:06 PM: Ellis Maples
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Robert Emmons on May 28, 2008, 02:32:53 PM: Larry Packard
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: jim_lewis on May 28, 2008, 02:37:14 PM: Has anyone mentioned Bobby Weed or Steve Smyers? If we include architects who specialize in restorations, I nominate Ron Pritchard and Ron Forse.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on May 28, 2008, 02:47:50 PM: A Russell
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Jay Kirkpatrick on May 28, 2008, 04:14:02 PM: Perhaps... Donald Steel? He's done a ton of work around the world.... most pre-1999.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Kirk Gill on May 28, 2008, 04:17:21 PM: Foulis?

Egan?

Hunter?

Behr?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Andrew Summerell on May 28, 2008, 04:50:07 PM: Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on May 28, 2008, 02:47:50 PM
A Russell
Mark, I already mentioned Alex Russell (as well as Eric Apperly) a few days ago, but I assume Mr Ron Whitten doesn't consider Australia or New Zealand worthy of his time. ;)
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 28, 2008, 04:53:48 PM: Charles Banks

Seth Raynor

Al Zikorus
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Allan Long on May 28, 2008, 05:00:45 PM: Billy Bell, Sr?

Edit: Sorry, didn't get to Page 2 before I responded.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Kyle Henderson on May 28, 2008, 05:00:51 PM: Wilfred Reid?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 28, 2008, 05:01:31 PM: DESMOND
MUIRHEAD
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Dan Moore on May 28, 2008, 05:25:33 PM: Jay Morrish
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Brad Swanson on May 28, 2008, 05:50:58 PM: Who are 3 people that have never been in my kitchen?

Cheers,
Cliff Claven
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mike Hendren on May 28, 2008, 05:59:58 PM: Braid. (oops, already mentioned)
Macan
Thompson
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 28, 2008, 07:17:07 PM: Reinhold Weishaupt

His Wiesloch Hohenhardter Hof GC is vastly underrated.

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 28, 2008, 08:10:54 PM: Guys:

Guess what ?

All the fire that's been shooting from your various answers has resulted in the following correct answers ...

N A D A

Repeat after me ...

N A D A

Keep'em coming ... this may go on for a few more days. ;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on May 28, 2008, 09:09:05 PM: Press Maxwell
Joe Lee
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on May 28, 2008, 09:10:58 PM: Sorry Matt I forgot:
N A D A
NADA
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Joe Andriole on May 28, 2008, 09:13:38 PM: Allison
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Allan Long on May 28, 2008, 09:16:48 PM: I'm guessing that Ian MacAllister didn't make the list so how about:

Harry Colt
Fred Hawtree
J.H. Taylor
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Brad Tufts on May 28, 2008, 09:24:49 PM: Xenophon Hassenplug
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Phil McDade on May 28, 2008, 09:38:31 PM: Ralph Plummer, as the last dead guy to make the list.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Dan Moore on May 28, 2008, 09:41:06 PM: Norman Macbeth as the last of the no longer living.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Jed Peters on May 28, 2008, 10:03:36 PM: Vernon Macan?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 09:21:21 AM: Willie Park, Jr.

Old Tom Morris
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 29, 2008, 12:39:28 PM: Guys:

Just to do a re-cap ...

There are two living people and one dead person to be listed.

I will throw a hint for one of the living people -- he gained his initial
stardom outside of architecture.

I won't be providing any more hints -- so please don't ask.

C'mon guys -- the last three are tough but doable.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Craig Van Egmond on May 29, 2008, 02:49:00 PM: Jack Nicklaus
Arnold Palmer
Tom Weiskoff
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 03:27:34 PM: Jack Nicklaus

Geoffrey Cornish

Mungo Park II
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 03:33:04 PM: Brain Sliva
Golf World's 1999 Architect of the Year

Steve Smyers (began career as saxophone player for all-girl cabaret)

Javier Arana (dead guy)
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 29, 2008, 03:49:53 PM: These remaining three will prove to be a bit more of a challenge than many might surmise.

Suffice to say -- they each do have courses that are of high quality and are well respected in certain specific instances.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 04:05:44 PM: Perry Maxwell
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 04:06:42 PM: These are the guys we have posted who are NOT on the list:

Joe Lee
Dick Wilson
Desmond Muirhead
Devereux Emmet
C.B. Macdonald
Seth Raynor
Alister Mackenzie
Donald Ross
Geoffrey Cornish
Langford
Leeds
Willie Park
James Braid
Hurdzan
Perry Maxwell
Joe Burbeck
Billy Payne
Hootie Johnson
Tim Finchem
Ted Robinson
Alex Russell
Eric Apperly
Herbert Tweedie
Charles Alison
Hugh Alison
Doak
C&C
Eddie Hackett
Hurdzan
Behr
Tucker
Marty Johnson
Xenon G. Hassenplug
Arthur Hills
Jim Engh
Tom Bendelow
Tom Fazio
Pat Ruddy
Phelps
Ellis Maples
Larry Packard
Bobby Weed
Steve Smyers
A Russell
Donald Steel
Foulis
Egan
Hunter
Behr
Banks Zikorus
Wilfried Reid
Jay Morrish
Macan
Thompson
Wiesloch Hohenhardter
Robert Bruce Harris
Von Hagge
Press Maxwell
Joe Lee
Harry Colt
Fred Hawtree
J.H. Taylor
Ralph Plummer
Norman Macbeth
Vernon Macan
Old Tom Morris
Jack Nicklaus
Arnold Palmer
Tom Weiskoff
Mungo Park II
Brian Silva
Javier Arana
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Phil McDade on May 29, 2008, 05:03:57 PM: Anthony:

Langford made Matt's list (6th).

Willie Watson needs to be added to your list (see post #20).
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 05:07:27 PM: Phil

Thanks for he corrections.

I really shouldn't post after downing the sixth Narragansett.

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Tim Pitner on May 29, 2008, 05:13:22 PM: Red Lawrence?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 05:15:19 PM: If one of the correct answers is

STEVE WYNN

I'm going to vomit in my parakeet's seed bowl.

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Jim Nugent on May 29, 2008, 05:22:22 PM: Greg Norman

Donald Trump (more vomit, Anthony)

Tom Kite

Mike Stranz
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Tim Pitner on May 29, 2008, 05:48:20 PM: Crump?

Fownes?

Or even . . . Hugh Wilson?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: SPDB on May 29, 2008, 05:54:26 PM: Jerry Rich
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Kirk Gill on May 29, 2008, 05:57:08 PM: SPDB - I already threw Hunter and Egan out there........as Matt said......NADA.

Buddy Rich?

Charlie Rich?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 05:58:02 PM: Richie Rich?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: John Shimp on May 29, 2008, 06:01:54 PM: Red Lawrence
Pete Dye?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Tim Pitner on May 29, 2008, 06:21:17 PM: Quote from: John Shimp on May 29, 2008, 06:01:54 PM
Red Lawrence

Is there an echo in here?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 06:41:56 PM: What about Red Lawrence?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Sean Leary on May 29, 2008, 07:01:40 PM: How about the guy that did Desert Forest.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 08:08:47 PM: Has anyone mentioned Red Lawrence? I think he designed Desert Forest.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Joe Bausch on May 29, 2008, 08:42:54 PM: George Fazio (after the nip and tuck that Hanse did on the course, I still can't believe how nice Downingtown is).
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Allan Long on May 29, 2008, 09:39:46 PM: Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on May 29, 2008, 03:27:34 PM
Jack Nicklaus

Geoffrey Cornish

Mungo Park II

Anthony,

I think Mungo Park was much more underrated than MP II.

George Cobb
Guy who did the Championship Course at U. New Mexico
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 29, 2008, 11:39:57 PM: Allan:

Don't get me started. If you want to go at it about Mungo vs. Mungo II, I AM READY!

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: mark chalfant on May 30, 2008, 12:13:41 AM: Keith Foster

Doug Carrick

RTJ II

Tom Mc broom

Graham Marsh

Bruce Matthews
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: mark chalfant on May 30, 2008, 12:25:13 AM: Alex findlay

William and David Gordon

Robert white

Joel Goldstrand
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 30, 2008, 02:07:13 AM: Fry, Frye?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Andrew Summerell on May 30, 2008, 08:54:41 AM: Richard Chamberlain ::)
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Phil_the_Author on May 30, 2008, 08:57:54 AM: Arthur Conan Doyle... and YES he did design a course in Canada in 1914 that was even partially constructed with a number of holes finished and playable... The outbreak of WW I stopped him from completing it as he went back home to the U.K.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Paul_Turner on May 30, 2008, 11:01:15 AM: If Ron Whitten thought Tom Simpson was so great, why didn't he include a Simpson tribute hole in his Architects Golf Club in New Jersey (instead of 2 "Ross"holes)?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 30, 2008, 11:39:25 AM: Guys:

It seems all of you have been stumped because I would think such a cracker jack team of "experts" would have unearthed the remaining three thus far.

I'll drop another hint in order to help this hapless situation move along ...

One of the living men served as a shadow for his more prominent boss.

You have the other clue I gave previously.

If all three are not answered by this weekend the answers will be posted Monday AM.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on May 30, 2008, 11:48:46 AM: Roger Rulewich comes to mind.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Greg Krueger on May 30, 2008, 11:50:03 AM: Forest Fezler
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on May 30, 2008, 11:51:26 AM: Jeff Brauer:

GO TO JEOPARDY AND COLLECT YOUR PRIZE !!! ;D

BINGO ...

Roger Rulewich is correcto !!!

Now guys you have two left.

Greg K:'

Nada on Forrest Fezler but your train of thought on the type of person that's still missing is quite warm.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 30, 2008, 12:22:14 PM: Roger "Freakin" Rulewich?!?

Holy Crap.

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 30, 2008, 12:32:14 PM: Howard Watson John Watson Willie Watson Willie Davis Willie Dunn Willie Park (Sr.) Willie Smith

Blind Willie McTell Blind Lemon Jefferson Blind Lemon Pledge

Alexander Bell Earl Lee (Smiley) Bell William Francis Bell William Park Bell
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 30, 2008, 12:39:03 PM: Dang! I thought of putting Rulewich up, but not knowing much about him, I figured he was too obscure. I hear more about Hurdzan/Fry, so I put Fry up instead.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: BCrosby on May 30, 2008, 01:44:10 PM: Jerry Pate
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on May 30, 2008, 03:43:12 PM: Quote from: Matt_Ward on May 27, 2008, 10:39:12 AM
Had the opportunity to see a previous Golf World that highlighted the top 10 underrated architects of the 20th century. It seems little doubt to me that Ron Whitten has a major hand on the listing.

By chance, I spoke with Ron W just after my last post. As it turns out, he had nothing to do with this article.....or was having one helluva senior moment! ;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Allan Long on May 30, 2008, 06:19:28 PM: Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on May 30, 2008, 12:32:14 PM

Howard Watson John Watson Willie Watson Willie Davis Willie Dunn Willie Park (Sr.) Willie Smith

Blind Willie McTell Blind Lemon Jefferson Blind Lemon Pledge

Alexander Bell Earl Lee (Smiley) Bell William Francis Bell William Park Bell

Wasn't Blind Lemon Jefferson's construction foreman Bleeding Gums Murphy??

How about Ed Seay?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on May 30, 2008, 09:18:53 PM: Matts clue about the last living one starting outside golf design, suggests a pro, perhaps Tom Weiskoph? Or even Deane Beamen?

Other than that, there would be land planners (Graves) insurance salesman (Dye) Engineers (Joe Finger, not dead in 1999 if that is the criteria)
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 30, 2008, 10:51:41 PM: What about Red Lawrence?

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 30, 2008, 11:00:39 PM: H.C.
Fownes

Perry Dye
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Adam Clayman on May 30, 2008, 11:34:40 PM: Quote from: Adam Clayman on May 28, 2008, 11:30:39 AM
Is there anything to you saying it's Whitten and Golf World?

Hmmm?

Whitten was not involved, per the horses mouth.

So, this leaves us with Golf World and who made the list?

How about that guy that designed DF?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Jim Nugent on May 31, 2008, 12:47:20 AM: Quote from: Matt_Ward on May 30, 2008, 11:51:26 AM

Roger Rulewich is correcto !!!

Rulewich of Yale fame?

What are some of his achievements?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 31, 2008, 08:29:55 AM: Jim:

The one and the same. He's designed a couple of solid courses here and there and truly atrocious course in Connecticut called Fox Hopyard. I think his Cumpin Fox in Western Massachusetts is overrated.

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Phil_the_Author on May 31, 2008, 08:55:08 AM: Dennis Griffiths?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: W.H. Cosgrove on May 31, 2008, 09:19:04 AM: Jay Morrish .......Never Mind
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 31, 2008, 09:32:12 AM: Jamie Dunn

John Duncan Dunn

Seymour Dunn

All Dunn

Tom Dunn

Willie Dunn

Willie Dunn, Jr.

May Dunn Hupfel
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Phil_the_Author on May 31, 2008, 09:33:34 AM: Tony,

You "Dunn" yet? :o
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 31, 2008, 10:15:44 AM: Some would say, "Under Done," others would say, "Over Done."
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 31, 2008, 10:51:51 AM: Harry Robb

Russell Roberts

Allan Robertson

David Robertson

Cabell Robinson

Clinton Robinson

John Robinson

Theodore Robinson

William Robinson

Robinson Crusoe
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on May 31, 2008, 10:55:45 AM: Red Lawrence
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Allan Long on May 31, 2008, 11:20:59 AM: Quote from: Philip Young on May 31, 2008, 09:33:34 AM
Tony,

You "Dunn" yet? :o

Philip,

Don't encourage him. Next, Tony will come up with Robert Jack Ross, Philip MacKenzie Ross, Philip Michael Thomas, David Thomas, etc. We may lose control of this thread. ::)

Jim,

The words Rulewich, Yale and Fame in the same sentence? Ugh........ Somewhere CBM et al. are sighing.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on May 31, 2008, 11:35:43 AM: John Byron Nelson, Jr.

Larry Gene Nelson

Full Nelson

Robert David Nelson

Willie Nelson

Nelson Mandela
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 01, 2008, 10:21:39 AM: Bernard von Limburger
designer of

Oberschwaben-Bad Waldsee GC

I think his designs are cheesy! Wooooo hoooo, thank you very much, good night - hey, try the veal - thanks again. You've been a wonderful audience.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: RJ_Daley on June 01, 2008, 01:45:26 PM: Some dead guy named H.I. Wilson, or was it H.I. Hiakawa? He was a financial man who understudied the great C.B. MacDonald.

Art Johnson, still alive.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on June 01, 2008, 10:13:40 PM: Guys, guys, guys:

With all this expertise there is still one person missing.

I salute Jeff B in mentioning Joe Finger who is one of the top ten.

However, guys you are no where near getting the final person. I have already provided a clue and there will be no further ones coming.

The correct answer will be posted by Monday unless someone can nail him before them.

Good luck -- many of you certainly need it and then some ... ;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 01, 2008, 10:30:36 PM: Joe Finger and Roger Rulewich?

These guys had their heads jammed up their shagbags when they came up with this list.

Anthony

P.S. Red Lawrence?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on June 01, 2008, 10:34:55 PM: Tony:

Red is dead as a choice -- it's time to put on your thinking gap.

One other thing -- I have not said the list reflects my thoughts on the subject - clearly it does with Golf World when they printed the article.

The remaining gent is someone who gained his fame prior to getting involved with architecture -- in fact, his partner is still active in course designs -- many of which are overseas.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 01, 2008, 10:44:23 PM: Time to put on our thinking gaps -- and for Anthony to lay off the Narragansetts.

Michael Wolveridge
Peter Thomson
John Fought
Dean Beaman
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on June 01, 2008, 10:48:41 PM: Mark B:

Keep on swinging because the only thing you are hitting is air ! ;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 01, 2008, 10:50:52 PM: Don Knott, on the chance you're thinking of Don Knotts
Stephen Kachmarchyk
Randall J. Heckenkemper
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 01, 2008, 10:52:20 PM: Anthony

How do you make a Narragansett?

Slainte
Mark
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 02, 2008, 08:33:15 AM: Mark:

I don't make 'em; I drink 'em.

How do you make a Narragansett?

Anthony Pioppi
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 02, 2008, 08:56:15 AM: Mix Red Lawrence with a Rusty Nail.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Rich Goodale on June 02, 2008, 10:27:46 AM: That's it! Russell "Rusty" Nail! The love child of Marion Hollins and Red Lawrence.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mike Hendren on June 02, 2008, 10:43:58 AM: Gary Player
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 02, 2008, 10:53:09 AM: Gary Player is the lovechild of Marion Hollins and Red Lawrence?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 02, 2008, 11:30:17 AM: Anthony

Can't make a Narragansett!

Do you know how to make a GolfClubAtlas?

Prost
Markus
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 02, 2008, 12:06:14 PM: Q: How many GolfClubAtlas members does it take to screw in a lightbuld?

A: Three. One to screw in the light bulb, one to write a 6,000-word post on how C.B. Macdonald had nothing to do with the invention of the light bulb and one to post, with photos, on how Tom Doak is the best ever at screwing in a light bulb.

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 02, 2008, 01:21:07 PM: Matt

Ron Whitten
Ran Morrissett

Anthony

How to make a GolfClubAtlas, from "The Online Bartender's Guide" (3rd ed.):
Into one large martini glass whisper the word "love." Then...pour one jigger bitters followed by one jigger rubbing alcohol. Mix. Very gently, pour a thin layer of water on top. Sprinkle 5 tbsp pure sodium powder. Enjoy!

Mark
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 02, 2008, 01:32:46 PM: Sounds like that drink would go wonderfully with a hot dog at the turn.

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Phil McDade on June 02, 2008, 01:45:04 PM: Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on June 02, 2008, 01:32:46 PM
Sounds like that drink would go wonderfully with a hot dog at the turn.

Anthony

Make mine a brat....
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 02, 2008, 01:51:15 PM: Not if you're dressed to the nines.

Matt
Greg Norman
Greg Norman's real architect

Mark
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 02, 2008, 02:37:32 PM: Red Lawrence
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Brad Tufts on June 02, 2008, 02:42:34 PM: Faldo
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 02, 2008, 02:52:30 PM: Brad:

The list came out in 1999. Had Faldo done much by then?

Laurence Buddo Waters (the Father of South African Golf)

Anthony
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on June 02, 2008, 06:20:18 PM: Gents:

Blanks and blanks and even more blanks.

One further hint -- there is an 18th hole on the PGA Tour that is named for this player turned architect. It's not the official name but it's one most people are aware of -- both the hole and the player associated with it.

Now, please let's finish this once and for all.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mike Hendren on June 02, 2008, 06:24:04 PM: Bruce Devlin
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on June 02, 2008, 06:27:44 PM: Michael Hendren:

YES, YOU HAVE SCALED THE HEIGHTS OF MT EVEREST TRIVIA !!!

c o n g r a t s i n d e e d ! ! !

Bruce Devlin indeed !!!

Geeze guys, this is one contest that stretched for a few days.

Another starts ASAP today ...
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mike Hendren on June 02, 2008, 07:17:05 PM: Matt,

I do so hope the prize is a round of golf with you at a future date so I can witness your legendary prodigious length first-hand.

Mike
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on June 03, 2008, 10:19:57 AM: Michael:

You might want to check out Bang Golf in El Monte, CA -- website is banggolf.com -- they do produce some of the best drivers in the business but fly considerably below the radar.

I use them and they are fantastic !

Unfortunately, I can't send you one as a grand prize -- great guess on Devlin.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matthew Hunt on June 03, 2008, 10:34:07 AM: Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on June 02, 2008, 12:06:14 PM

Q: How many GolfClubAtlas members does it take to screw in a lightbuld?

A: Three. One to screw in the light bulb, one to write a 6,000-word post on how C.B. Macdonald had nothing to do with the invention of the light bulb and one to post, with photos, on how Tom Doak is the best ever at screwing in a light bulb.

Anthony

:D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 03, 2008, 11:34:09 AM: Quote from: Matt_Ward on June 03, 2008, 10:19:57 AM
Michael:

You might want to check out Bang Golf in El Monte, CA -- website is banggolf.com -- they do produce some of the best drivers in the business but fly considerably below the radar.

I use them and they are fantastic !

Unfortunately, I can't send you one as a grand prize -- great guess on Devlin.

I have to caution against going to the website. My company blocks it due to pornographic content. ;D
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 03, 2008, 04:36:20 PM: Red Lawrence
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: David Kelly on June 03, 2008, 06:16:49 PM: Quote from: Michael_Hendren on June 02, 2008, 07:17:05 PM
Matt,

I do so hope the prize is a round of golf with you at a future date so I can witness your legendary prodigious length first-hand.

Mike
Mike,

Milton Berle was longer.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 04, 2008, 05:11:29 PM: I want to change my answer:

The ghost of Red Lawrence
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 13, 2008, 09:27:51 AM: Red Lawrence
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on June 13, 2008, 10:49:08 AM: Bang Golf
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on June 15, 2008, 01:38:37 PM: Some have asked for the reasoning behind the selections ...

1. NGLA (1909) -- Patterened after famous British holes by C.B. Macdonald, it becamse the role model for courses such as Merion.

2. Lido (1915) -- Macdonald again. First $1 million course, featuring a contest-winning 18th designed by unknown Alister Mackenzie. Sadly, it didn't survivie World War II.

3. Cypress Point (1928) -- Mackenzie's artistic triumph up the street from Pebble Beach led Bobby Jones to hire him to design Augusta National.

4. Pinehurst #2 (1935) -- Supposedly, Donald Ross' response to not being hired to design Augusta National. First course ever awarded a major (1936 PGA) before being completed.

5. Peachtree (1948) -- Bobby Jones' new Augusta National-type club in Atlanta done with obscure architect RTJ, was radical in its design, with enormous tees, greens and yardage.

6. Oakland Hills (1951) -- RTJ shed obscurity when, after he remodeled this old Ross design into a monster, Ben Hogan slayed it to win the '51 US Open, then villified Jones in the press.

7. Harbour Town (1969) -- Pete Dye's breakthrough course, with tiny greens bolstered by walls of railroad ties.

8. Muirfield Village (1974) -- Jack Nicklaus' breakout course near his hometown of Columbus. Nicklaus' insistence upon perfect conditions eventually raised the national standard at extraordinary cost.

9. TPC at Sawgrass (1981) -- Deane Beman trademarked the phrase "stadium golf" and Pete Dye gave it meaning. Viewers never had it so good, but tour pros never had it so tough, especially hitting the death-or-glory island green 17th.

10. Sand Hills (1994) -- Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore massaged a magnificent layout from the last frontier of American golf, Great Plains and dunes.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on June 16, 2008, 09:41:10 PM: Lawrence, Red
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Dan Herrmann on September 16, 2009, 01:03:25 PM: Quote from: mark chalfant on May 30, 2008, 12:25:13 AM
Alex findlay

William and David Gordon

Robert white

Joel Goldstrand

Mark,
I played a William & David Gordon course yesterday and was very disappointed. The course was just "awkward" in many spots, had poor green complexes and a strange routing. Course was desgined in the "dark ages" (late 1950's).

This was the first William & David Gordon I have played - are their other designs that good?
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Matt_Ward on September 16, 2009, 01:16:27 PM: Dan:

A sleeper Gordon layout is located in south Jersey -- called Buena Vista. Place started as a private layout in the 60's and then became public. I'm not suggesting it is a masterpiece but there's enough present to make the visit (no more than 100 miles) worthwhile.

The par-5 10th there has many similar qualities to what you see at PV.
Title: Re: Golf World's Underrated Architects of the 20th Century
Post by: Ulrich Mayring on September 17, 2009, 04:08:50 AM: I would second Gary Player. Have only played one of his courses, but it was great (Cihelny in the Czech Republic). If the rest are like this, he deserves a mention. What are his other good courses?

Ulrich