Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ian Andrew on January 27, 2008, 01:45:50 PM

Title: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 27, 2008, 01:45:50 PM
For Mike and other who have requested it:

Ed's note to me (for context): Ian--Here's our latest listing, including original designs, remodeling, and consultations.  This will create some discussion.  Very little documentation for this listing came through Travis writings, except copies of his correspondence.  In one 1920s autobiographical article, he wrote about talks he had with Ross concerning Pinehurst #2; in addition, we have an item from an early Golf Illustration about his idea that was used for the first hole.  In magazine ads, Travis listed his courses, though I believe he was overly cautious about claiming them as original versus remodels.  In one letter to a prospective client, he listed courses that could be used as references.  That was used to confirm a couple of courses.

Walter J. Travis Golf Course Projects
(2008 Revision)

Original Golf Course Design
(18 hole design unless otherwise noted.  Dates given reflect when Travis did his work, according to available documentation)

1899   Ekwanok Country Club (with John Duncan Dunn) Manchester, VT

1904   Mount Pocono Golf and Country Club   Stroudsburg, PA

1908   Poland Spring Golf Club
   South Poland, ME

1910   Grand`Mere Golf Club
   Shawinigan, Quebec

1911   Youngstown Country Club
   Youngstown, OH

1916   Garden City Country Club
   Garden City, NY

1916   Orchard Park Country Club (FKA The Park Country Club)  
   Orchard Park, NY

1916   East Potomac Park Golf Club  (with Walter S. Harban)
   Washington, D.C.

1916   Canoe Brook Country Club (North Course)  
   Summit, NJ

1917   Lochmoor Club (assisted John S. Sweeney)  
   Grosse Pointe Woods, MI

1918   Onondaga Golf and Country Club
   Fayetteville, NY

1919   Westchester Country Club (South, West, and short course, FKA Westchester-Biltmore Club)  
   Rye, NY

1920   White Beeches Golf and Country Club (FKA Haworth Golf Club)
   Haworth, NJ

1921   Cape Arundel Golf Club
   Kennebunkport, ME

1921   Lookout Point Country Club
   Fonthill, Ontario, Canada

1921   Stafford Country Club
   Stafford, NY

1922   Longue Vue (NLE)
   Hastings-on-Hudson, NY

1922   Cherry Hill Club
   Ridgeway, Ontario, Canada


1922   North Jersey Country Club
   Wayne, NJ

1922   Pennhills Club (FKA North Penn Club)
   Bradford, PA

1922   Round Hill Club
   Greenwich, CT

1922   Yahnundasis Golf Club (27 holes, 18 built)  
   New Hartford, NY

1923   Camden Country Club (FKA Kirkwood Links)  
   Camden, SC

1923   Oak Ridge Golf Club (NLE)
   Tuckahoe, NY

1924   Louisville Country Club (18 holes, not constructed)  
   Louisville, KY

1925   Country Club of Scranton
   Scranton, PA

1926   Country Club of Troy
   Troy, NY

1926   The Gleneagles Golf Course  (FKA Equinox Golf Links)
   Manchester, VT

1926   Jekyll Island Golf Club (Great Dunes course)  
   Jekyll Island, GA

1926   Sea Island Golf Club (Plantation 9)
   St. Simons Island, GA

Remodeling/Renovation Projects

1902   Flushing Golf Club (LKA Old Country Club) (NLE)
   Flushing, LI, NY

1901-08   Garden City Golf Club (FKA Island Golf Links)  
   Garden City, NY


1909   Essex County Country Club (with John Duncan Dunn) (NLE)
   Manchester, MA

1910-11   Grover Cleveland Muni (FKA Country Club of Buffalo)  
   Buffalo, NY

1915   Columbia Country Club (with Walter S. Harban and Bob White)
   Chevy Chase, MD

1917   Hollywood Golf Club
   Deal, NJ

1919   Sunningdale Country Club
   Scarsdale, NY

1920   Lakewood Country Club
   Lakewood, NJ


1924   Augusta Country Club
   Augusta, GA

1924   Country Club of New Canaan
   New Canaan, CT


1924   Louisville Country Club (9 holes)
   Louisville, KY

1924   Milwaukee Country Club  (NLE)
   Milwaukee, MI

1924   Granliden on Sunapee (9 holes)
   Lake Sunapee, NH

Consultations

1904   Pinehurst Country Club (#2 course, with Donald Ross)
   Pinehurst, NC

1906   Fox Hills Golf Club (NLE)
   Staten Island, NY

1906   Van Cortland Park Golf Club
   Bronx, NY

1910   Chevy Chase Club (with Donald Ross)
   Chevy Chase, MD

1910   National Golf Links of America  (with C.B. Macdonald and Devereux Emmet)
   Southhampton, NY

1910   The Country Club
   Brookline, MA

1912   Palm Beach Club
   Palm Beach, FL

1912   Ormond Golf Club
   Ormand Beach, FL

1916   Chicago Golf Club
   Chicago, IL

1916     Misquamicut Golf Club
     Watch Hill, RI

1917     Pine Valley Golf Club (with George Crump)
     Pine Valley, NJ

1922     Century Country Club
     Purchase, NY

1922     Sankaty Head Golf Club
     Nantucket Island

1924     Pasadena Golf Club (with Max Behr) (NLE)  
     Pasadena, CA

1924     Philadelphia GC (NLE)
     Philadelphia, PA

1924     The Park Country Club
     Buffalo, NY

1924     Yountakah CC (NLE)
     Nutley, NJ
     

1925     Paducah Golf & Country Club
     Paducah, KY


FKA   Formerly Known As
NLE  No Longer Exists
LKA  Later Known As


Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 27, 2008, 04:12:40 PM
Thanks Ian...

I've been trying to find out if the Mount Pocono Golf Course listed above is the same one that still exists today...a strange nine-holer that likely lost a bit of yardage to highway expansion but almost nobody knows anything about the history except that it's OLD.

Also, other accounts list the first course to be built in the Poconos to be located in the little town of Paradise, which is exactly where this one sits.

Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Joe Bausch on January 27, 2008, 05:55:05 PM
Was thinking about suggesting the addition of Cobb's Creek to the consultation list for Travis, but that would just cause trouble wouldn't it.  ;)

So instead I'll post a Google aerial of this 9 hole Mount Pocono Golf Course, followed by a 1942 Penn Pilot aerial.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2350/2223734119_acfc638cea_o.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/2223733985_256c2ccd9c_o.jpg)
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: J Sadowsky on January 27, 2008, 06:00:45 PM
Played 9 at EPP in DC yesterday - not much architectural merit to it, to be honest.  One mildly interesting par 3 on the front 9, thats about it.  Does its job as a muni, though, I guess.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: wsmorrison on January 27, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Thank you for posting the list, Ian.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 27, 2008, 07:45:51 PM
Joe,

It's amazing that the course hasn't changed since 1940, but I'm also thinking that the road may have changed between 1904 and then.   In any case, a few holes down near ther roads in the southeast corner are very strangely cramped.

Some interesting old features though, don'cha think?  

Ian...anything look like ancient Travis?


btw, Joe & Wayne...check your mail
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 27, 2008, 07:49:39 PM
btw, I think Travis needs to be listed as having worked on Cobb's Creek in its "finishing" stages before opening during fall 1915 til early 1916.   The documented evidence seems pretty clear that he was spending a good deal of time there.


I'm also really, really hoping to have a Travis exploration year.

I want to get to Troy and Yahundasis at a minimum, and probably throw in Onondaga for good measure.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: ChipOat on January 27, 2008, 07:49:46 PM
Where was Philadelphia Golf Club (NLE)??

Do you mean the original Phila CC course on City Line Avenue?
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: wsmorrison on January 27, 2008, 07:55:10 PM
I don't think it was Philadelphia GC, probably the Pennsylvania CC.  The Pennsylvania RR owned 2 golf coures, one in the western suburbs, which is now Chester Valley GC.  The architectural attribution is unsure.  Some evidence points to Donald Ross while Cornish and Whitten attribute it to Perry Maxwell.  The eastern one was, according to Jim Finegan, in Havertown, not far from Llanerch.  Craig Disher has an early photograph of it as seen below.  I believe it went NLE sometime shortly after WWII.

Ian,
Any thoughts on this design being a Travis?

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/2224058143_dc825565c8_o.jpg)
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Joe Bausch on January 27, 2008, 08:09:35 PM
I believe this was known as the Pennsylvania Golf Club, very near the PECO course (now McCall).  A 6432 yard par 73 layout according to Wexler's book (but this should be treated w/ a tiny bit of skepticism as I've found some inaccuracies in the book; and yes, I've talked to the author about them).
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: mark chalfant on January 27, 2008, 08:56:53 PM
Ian

Thanks so much for this list. Is Onandaga well preserved in terms  of Travis routing, greens and/ or  bunkering
thanks
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 27, 2008, 09:01:39 PM
btw, I think Travis needs to be listed as having worked on Cobb's Creek in its "finishing" stages before opening during fall 1915 til early 1916.   The documented evidence seems pretty clear that he was spending a good deal of time there.


I'm also really, really hoping to have a Travis exploration year.

I want to get to Troy and Yahundasis at a minimum, and probably throw in Onondaga for good measure.

Mike,

I assume you've been doing more reading, but if you're referencing the one mention of Travis's involvement at Cobb's I don't think that's very clear at all.

Is there access to New York papers that can cross verify Travis's doings during that time period?
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Art Roselle on January 27, 2008, 10:50:26 PM
A couple of things on that list are interesting (to me).  First, it lists Camden Country Club in SC, which is generally listed as a Ross course.  Bradley Klein lists it correctly as a Ross remodel in 1939, but the club itself seems to makes no mention of Travis' prior work (at least not here (http://www.camdencountryclub.com/history.html)).

It appears that the Travis course was built around 1903 and you can find mention of it in some old literature about the Kirkwood Hotel (the original owner) such as
this postcard (http://books.google.com/books?id=wFjA5GuX4XoC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=walter+travis+camden+kirkwood+golf&source=web&ots=qE10LG4nsO&sig=vqzMPNwfXTfaFw8NBYVUUgJkQjY).

Second, for Louisville Country Club, it says "(18 holes, not constructed)" under Original Designs, but then lists it again under Renovation Projects with the same year (1924) but says it is only 9 holes.  Does anyone know what the deal is there?  LCC certainly has 18 holes now and generally is listed as a Walter Travis course (with a recent renovation by Keith Foster).  I was under the impression that some sort of course was there before 1924, since the club opened in 1905, but that Travis designed the curent 18 holes in 1924 and it was constructed (or "remodeled") then.


Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Jamey Bryan on January 28, 2008, 05:24:02 AM
Art:

Camden's web site is a bad joke in many ways (I'm a member btw), the "history" there is simply one of the worst sections.

Walter Travis constructed, in 1923, 18 holes for the Kirkwood Hotel which was a large resort hotel catering to wealthy Northerners who wintered here.  The course was one of the first to have very undulating sand greens and was considered a "championship" course in its day.  Travis spent a good portion of the 1923-24 season in residence at the Kirkwood, the local paper reported that he was playing the new links daily.

Donald Ross, in December of 1939, opened the "renovated" Kirkwood Links (Gene Sarazen and Charles Yates attended the opening and played an exhibition).  The biggest change to the Travis course was a complete rebuilding of the greens which were grassed.  Ross also eliminated one hole (which called for a shot across a rail bed) and built one entirely new one shotter.  Many minor changes were made, but it's clear that Ross recognized Travis's work as excellent and many characteristic Travis features were left alone.  The routing is 80 percent Travis.

Kris Spence recently submitted a new master plan to the club, and has recommended that the club embrace the full heritage of the design (in other words, restore some of the Travis features that have been lost over the years).  I've long thought that we should be publicly embracing the Travis legacy.

Jamey
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 28, 2008, 08:50:06 AM
Sorry about taking so long to get back to this thread – I’ve been avoiding anything golf this week in deference to the kids.

Mike,

I can’t make judgments just from an aerial – I can easily assume a pattern is similar to what I have seen on a plan or on the ground and simply be wrong.

Troy, Onondaga and Yahnundasis are excellent examples of his work – the three would would provide a wonderful overview of his work. If you want to make a second trip – Cape Arundal and Ekwanok should be another great trip.

Wayne,

Ed Homsey might have some research to answer your questions – I could never be certain from any aerial on any architect - I would need more information. Travis is hard to nail down, while a lot of the works seems to follow certain patterns, Hollywood, Orchard Park and a few others don’t. I have learnt to be careful with Walter, because each course I generally find a suprise.

Mark,

Onondaga is pretty intact with 3 and 4 new holes by Wogan and  7, 8 & 9 are holes by Purdy. The rest is still there with multiple blind shots throughout.

Art,

Kris Spence sent me the plan and old aerials – the Travis routing is still intact. I appreciate the fact that Kris is trying to have them recognize their heritage but there is resistance to sharing credit with Ross.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on January 28, 2008, 09:30:25 AM
Ian:

I think you need to put Misquamicut in its own catagory. "Consultation" doesn't adaquately describe his role. He redesigned the entire course, submitted plans and was paid for his efforts even though the work was never done. Too had the plans are no where to be found.

I have no idea, however, how you would catagorize his role in that case.

Anthony

Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 28, 2008, 10:05:38 AM
Anthony,

Ed Homsey is the head of the Travis Society - he is reading these threads but is unable to respond - I sent him an email offerenig to respond on his behalf if he wants.

He will be very interested in what you wrote - I love the fact that they have removed courses every once in a while too - its a well researched list involving quite a few people.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Art Roselle on January 28, 2008, 10:23:45 AM
Art:

Camden's web site is a bad joke in many ways (I'm a member btw), the "history" there is simply one of the worst sections.

Walter Travis constructed, in 1923, 18 holes for the Kirkwood Hotel which was a large resort hotel catering to wealthy Northerners who wintered here.


Jamey

Jamey,
Thanks.  That is sort of what assumed, although I did not realize that the routing was left so close to the original Travis design.  I apologize that the postcard does not appear to be coming up correctly on the link I provided.  It did on my Mac at home, but now does not appear to open the correct page.  The postcard I meant to include shows a photo supposedly from 1904 and shows golfers in front of the hotel and the caption references Travis's work.  Was there a course there prior to Travis's work in 1923?  Also, I did notice that the Camden CC site mentions Ross's work in the "late 20s".  I assume the 1939 date is the correct one.
Thanks
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Jamey Bryan on January 28, 2008, 11:15:18 AM
Art:

There was a pre-Travis course; in fact, there seem to have been several versions.

The original nine holes opened for play sometime around 1903 and were located in front of the Kirkwood hotel extending toward the center of town.  Until July, 1913, advertisements and listings in the USGA's golf course directory indicated 9 holes at 2800 yards.  In July, 1913, the first listing of 18 holes appeared showing 5910 yards.  American Golfer attributed the new holes to the resident professional, James Norton, this nine was laid out behind the hotel adjacent to the polo field.  Minor tweaking seems to have been done in 1920 and '21 bringing the total length to 6120 yards.

In 1923, Travis used the land for the second nine holes and adjoining property to construct a new "championship course."  (The original nine remained in use and was referred to as the "short course")  Travis's course was originally advertised as 6143 yards, par 70.  In 1925 it seems that there was a modification as par changed to 71 at 6264 yards.  We know that Travis continued to visit during this period so I presume this change was overseen by him, but I've been able to find no documentation.

Donald Ross's renovation began in summer of 1939, and opened for play in December!!  Charles Harris was the construction superintendent overseeing the work.

The postcard you linked to shows the first nine prior to the expansion.  If you look at the aerial of the Kirkwood grounds (page 112 of the book) you can see the clubhouse in the center of the postcard in front of the hotel.  In the c.1920 aerial, too, you can see some of the features of the second nine (pre-Travis) behind and to the left of the hotel.

Thanks for posting that.....  I'd seen it before but had forgotten.  Good stuff!

Jamey
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Art Roselle on January 28, 2008, 11:29:54 AM
Thanks.  By the way, (and I think I posted this to you a few weeks ago), I think Camden is a really neat spot, although the greens ate my lunch.  I hope Travis gets some credit for his role there.

I especially like the 1980s-style poster of a scantily clad Jan Stephenson tacked to the wall of the men's the locker room.  If that is not "old school" then I don't know what is.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Art Roselle on January 28, 2008, 11:33:14 AM
I think this is the one, but yours had a nice autograph to the members too.  Well done.  Ok, back to the topic.

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:gX0yvzvlBmKPRM:http://bp2.blogger.com/_1EPpmyk)
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Michael Powers on January 28, 2008, 11:36:19 AM
Thank you for the list Ian.  I was wondering if you had any information on the Essex County Country Club, listed in Manchester, MA and as NLE.  Thanks.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 28, 2008, 12:00:02 PM
FROM ED HOMSEY

hi ian--frustrating to not be able to participate in the discussion.  lot of stuff i'd like to respond to.  this is what we're all about--trying to make certain that there is accurate information about travis out there.
 
a few things:  please thank jamey bryan for his accurate description of the role travis played at camden.  i agree with his assessment of their website and, particularly, the so-called "history".  i think it is dishonest for them to claim that their course was designed by ross.  even the ross society doesn't make that claim.  they recognize that his work there was remodelling.  thanks again, jamey.  he should be a member of the travis society.
 
re wayne morrison's comments concerning philadelphia cc.  it was indeed the philadelphia country club where travis was asked to assess some land they were considering for a golf course with the idea that he would design an 18 hole course for them.  he examined the property on june 27, 1924, tried to work out a layout, but found the property to be "too narrow" to permit 18 holes.  he wrote Mr. Ralph E. White of Philadelphia indicating that "there is not sufficient room available" nor is it topographically suitable.  He charged them $125. for his work.  subsequent correspondence suggests that philadelphia proceeded with their plans despite travis's recommendations.
 
re mount pocono.  let cirba know that we've been unable to nail down the location of the course since our email exchanges with him in 2003.  we paid the local historical association to do some research for us, to no avail.  one of our members has visited the area to do some searching.  all we have is a 6/26/04 philadelphia inquirer article, found by bob labbance, that the clubhouse will open about july 1, the links is a nine-hole course, "accessible from all points on the mountains" and "laid out by walter j. travis, the golf champion of the united states, and is considered as one of the finest".  if anyone out there can provide confirmation that travis's course still exists, we'd greatly appreciate it.
 
we would be very interested in hearing more about cobb's creek.  we know nothing about it.  we would be interested in any documentation that confirms travis's involvement there; even if it was just 'consultation'.  please email us at:  travissociety@yahoo.com
 
re art roselle's comments concerning louisville.  we have a very large file on louisville.  have had extensive conversations with a member who is well-informed concerning their history.  also extensive conversations with keith foster.  provided keith with a lot of information from the travis papers about louisville, as well as about travis's design work.  it is very hard to sort out.  but, best we can determine, tom bendelow staked out the original course in1908.  when they bought new property and brought travis there sometime in 1924.  at the time, he designed an 18 hole course for the new property, and then did  renovation of 9 of the bendelow holes.  
 
if anyone has any information that can be verified, and is different from the above, please let us know.  i have not been absolutely confident in our information.  there are some contradictions.  we do have correspondence that travis was having with his contractor who was doing work at louisville.  in addition, we have a letter travis wrote to the 'northpenn club' in bradford, pa, which states, "i am working on plans for an additional 18-hole course for the louisville cc, in addition to remodeling nine holes of their present course'.  that's the best of the info we have; and, i'd have to say, it's probably the final word!
 
re yahnundasis.  i enjoy the course.  it has several terrific examples of classic travis green sites.  several changes were made to the front nine in the early -'60s because of land that had been appropriated by the state for a highway.  the gordons did the remodelling that affected 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6.  from what i understand, the current 3rd and 4th greens are original, but not the current 1, 2, and 5.  i enjoyed the yahnundasis pictures that were posted.  they did a great job of showing the undulations in greens such as 11 and 18.
 
the original travis design of yahnundasis had 27 holes, including a 9-hole short course.  because of land restrictions, the full 9-hole short course was not built.  i believe that, for a while, they had 6 holes, but did not maintain them.  
 
unless you're fortunate enough to be able to get on courses such as scranton, troy, hollywood, or north jersey, i would suggest a trek to cape arundel.  it gives you the feeling of stepping back in time, and has some of the best travis green sites around.  please don't go expecting pristine conditions.  if that's what turns you on, this isn't the place for you.  however, you will find greens that roll true and, if speeded up, will give you more challenge than you might want.  it's a great example of travis's ability to make the most of the existing terrain.  if you go, be sure to stop and say hello to ken raynor, director of golf, and avid golf/travis history buff.
 
garden city golf club was mentioned as a course to play.  if you have the connections to do it, but, keep in mind that it is an emmet course.  yes, travis did major renovations there, and though several significant travis features remain, a lot of his work was removed.  but, it is a travis shrine because of his association with the club from its inception until his death in 1927.  tom kirby, their historian, is constantly on the search for additional travis memorabilia to hang in their travis room, and for ways to highlight their rich history.
 
it's great fun, for this travis historian, to see a discussion focusing on the works of 'the old man'.
 
thanks,
 
ed homsey
archivist/treasurer  
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Chris_Blakely on January 28, 2008, 12:16:57 PM
John Duncan Dunn was a consultant with Travis at Cape Arundel GC.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Joe Bausch on January 28, 2008, 12:17:31 PM
Ed, I'll e-mail you the two Philadelphia Inquirer articles that link Travis to Cobb's Creek.  Here is the text from this reference:

Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 12-19-1915; Volume: 173; Issue: 172; Page: [16]; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

An article by Verdant Greene:

(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_and_Travis.jpg)

Note, some on this site don't think this is strong evidence at all.  I politely disagree.  Verdant Greene wrote in a different style and this paragragh, by my interpretation, suggests VG is making the claim about knowing where Travis has been since the mentioned tourney, not the reader relaying second hand info.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: michael_j_fay on January 28, 2008, 12:54:32 PM
This is a wonderful list.

I've enjoyed every Travis Course I have ever played. The Ekwanok Club in Manchester, VT is absolutely the finest course in the Green Mountain State. I believe that on the weekend they still allow only 2-ball play between 8:00-10:00 on the weekends.

I am interested to see how much work Ross and Travis did together. I know that I have difficulty differentiating between Ross and Travis.

Two of the Travis/Ross courses that I have played recently are Camden CC and Youngstown CC. Both are brilliant although Camden could use a chainsaw. Two very worhty opponents.

Travis was the master of the small plot. Cape Arundel can't be bigger than 100 acres, Camden is tight as is Onandaga.
The Hollywood CC in Deal, NJ is a great layout. The course abuts a Donald Ross design (redesign) Deal Country Club.

The Norwich Municipal in Norwich, CT was once listed as a Ross design, we have no record of Ross's involvement. Pete Jones looked into the matter and found the course was built by Tull and Tull, Construction Co. years before they actually got into golf design. Pete and I concluded that Norwich was designed  by Travis. It is a very good small tract golf course,sporty with tough greens.

Nice work on the list. Thanks.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: wsmorrison on January 28, 2008, 02:03:37 PM
Ed/Ian,

Thank you so much for the clarification of Philadelphia Country Club versus Philadelphia GC or Pennsylvania GC.  So Travis visited a proposed site for Philadelphia Country Club in 1924 and considered it unsuitable for golf.  You mentioned that PCC went ahead with their plans.  I wonder if you mean that they went ahead and built their course in the same location as where Travis considered it; Gladwyne, where it exists today.  

Flynn came up with his final designs for the present Spring Mill course in November 1925.  It was considered a significant course in its day but was remodeled slightly for the 1939 US Open.  Maxwell redid a number of greens in their original locations several years later as the greens were not properly constructed and settled causing a lot of short balls to funnel off the greens.  The Maxwell greens subsequently required reworking as well.  Flynn did the work prior to the Open.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 28, 2008, 02:24:49 PM
MORE FROM ED

could you post a reply for me to replay #23 that states:  john duncan dunn was a consultant with travis at cape arundel gc.

we assumed that dunn was involved with travis for some time until we obtained 'the history of cape arundel golf club of kennebunkport' by george a. douglas, published in 2001.  the bulk of douglas's book was made up of quotes from the ogunquit and kennebunkport bulletin.  no place is dunn's name mentioned.  seems strange that his name would be omitted given the kind of extreme detail you find the the bulletin's acccounts.  tull is identified as the contractor and merrill as the foreman.

based on what appeared to be detailed and comprehensive coverage of the 'renaissance' of cape arundel, with no mention of dunn, we dropped his name from the listing.  the only place we've seen dunn's name associated with arundel was in the cornish/whitten book.  though their travis listing was a great starting point for us, it has proven to be unreliable in several instances.  again, if anyone has documentation that confirms dunn's involvement at arundel, please let me know.

ed
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 28, 2008, 03:03:03 PM
I find this description extremely interesting;

"the links is a nine-hole course, "accessible from all points on the mountains" and "laid out by walter j. travis.

At the time, the Poconos were just beginning to be developed as a destination and just coincidentally, Mount Pocono is built at the juncture of what then were the two main (and probably only) north/south and east/west roads.

It's also nine holes.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Chris_Blakely on January 28, 2008, 03:46:56 PM
My response to Ed:

Here is a link to Bob Labbance's Feature interview and in his response to question #18 what was Travis' relationship with John Duncan Dunn, Labbance replied:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewlabbance.html

 In 1899, even before Travis had won his first U.S. Amateur, he was asked by his friend James Taylor to design Ekwanok Country Club. Travis felt he needed to legitimatize his involvement in a field where he had no experience. He asked Dunn-whose father had designed dozens of courses in Scotland-to accompany him to Vermont and help with the project. Dunn provided his input, then returned to New York, but Travis remained for a month directing the construction of the course and planning in the field without drawings or plans. Travis respected the Dunn family for their roots that went back generations in Scottish golf and maintained a friendship with John Duncan.

After the Travis win in 1900, and successful defense of the Amateur title the following year, Travis didn't need anyone to partner with to sanction his qualifications-his services were in demand regardless of his affiliations. Travis included Dunn in another project 20 years later when he invited him to  consult on the design of Cape Arundel in Kennebunkport, Maine, and the two remained cordial throughout their careers, though I don't believe they chummed around together.

I guess that is two location's where Dunn's name is mentioned. ;)
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 28, 2008, 05:54:49 PM
Ed, I'll e-mail you the two Philadelphia Inquirer articles that link Travis to Cobb's Creek.  Here is the text from this reference:

Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 12-19-1915; Volume: 173; Issue: 172; Page: [16]; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

An article by Verdant Greene:

(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_and_Travis.jpg)

Note, some on this site don't think this is strong evidence at all.  I politely disagree.  Verdant Greene wrote in a different style and this paragragh, by my interpretation, suggests VG is making the claim about knowing where Travis has been since the mentioned tourney, not the reader relaying second hand info.

Joe,

I think this is most definitely a lead, but not conclusive nor strong evidence.

Yes, the style is different, but that still doesn't lead us to the meaning. It's possible that the reader had heard about Travis working on the public courses and was asking Mr. Greene. Until that can be proven otherwise, this is not conclusive.

You may also point out the position of Cobb's Creek in relation to the other courses, but this to me is of non-significance as the Philadelphia paper would naturally list the Philadelphia projects first.

I think prudence would dictate further following up on this lead with other papers. Following up with the New York papers, for me, would be the next step.

All the following questions remain unanswered:

How much work did Travis put into Cobb's?
What did Travis contribute or suggest?
Did Travis take any credit for work, or speak of his time at Cobb's?

Until any of that can be answered, we have nothing more than a lead - like a trail of footprints from a crime scene.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 28, 2008, 08:14:43 PM
I don't want to take away from the discussion of Travis, but there are two separate sources claiming that he was spending "most of his time"  and "a good deal of his time lately"  "especially at Cobb's Creek" is pretty telling and there is absolutely no reason to believe this means anything than exactly what it says..

If the Philly newspaper wanted to engage in sensationalistic localism, then I think Pine Valley was the much more dramatic lead.  It is also known that he visited with George Crump at this time, so he was definitely in town and it wouldn't seem too much a flight of fancy to imagine he went up to CC with Crump to visit Wilson, et.al. who were trying to get that project completed.   Remember, at this time Wilson was supposedly spending six months on the project and Crump's friend Ab Smith was spending all his Sunday's working on the construction.

It should also be noted that CC was originally supposed to open in the fall of 1915.   These articles were written in 12/15 and 1/16, so it's a really good bet that he was helping to get the course to a finished state, which eventually opened in May.



Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 28, 2008, 08:30:22 PM
I don't want to take away from the discussion of Travis, but there are two separate sources claiming that he was spending "most of his time"  and "a good deal of his time lately"  "especially at Cobb's Creek" is pretty telling and there is absolutely no reason to believe this means anything than exactly what it says..

If the Philly newspaper wanted to engage in sensationalistic localism, then I think Pine Valley was the much more dramatic lead.  It is also known that he visited with George Crump at this time, so he was definitely in town and it wouldn't seem too much a flight of fancy to imagine he went up to CC with Crump to visit Wilson, et.al. who were trying to get that project completed.   Remember, at this time Wilson was supposedly spending six months on the project and Crump's friend Ab Smith was spending all his Sunday's working on the construction.

It should also be noted that CC was originally supposed to open in the fall of 1915.   These articles were written in 12/15 and 1/16, so it's a really good bet that he was helping to get the course to a finished state, which eventually opened in May.





Mike,

I'm not convinced. This sort of back page poorly-edited copy must stand some rigorous scrutiny. I also don't really consider them all that much of seperate sources, especially since they were written under pen names. Let's see what else is out there before we going throwing around attributions.

Don't you find it strange that the list does not include the course at Halloween Park or Cobb's Creek, but does Pine Valley?

Either Travis was very quiet about some of his more philanthropic work, or there's not much to talk about with it.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 28, 2008, 08:56:48 PM
Kyle,

We discussed Halloween Park previously here.

It was built in Stamford CT, evidently right on the shore.  The course was only something like 2300 yards, because that's all they gave Travis to work with.  

How is this attribution...especially one that says he spent "a good deal of time" and "most of his time lately", "ESPECIALLY at Cobb's Creek", "assisting in the laying out" somehow more dubious than the two articles we have mentioning that George Crump was part of the GAP Committee that was charged with finding the site for Cobbs Creek, and then a later attribution mentioning he was one of the men who laid out the course??

Kyle, perhaps Ian or others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the listing of courses is not something Travis compiled, but something that is very much a research-oriented "work in progress", with new information surfacing regularly, as it has here recently.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 28, 2008, 10:26:17 PM
Mike,

If you'll recall I was quite vocal in my skepticism of the Crump attribution and still am. Just as I am with the assumption that Tillinghast was the source of all the articles written.

I understand that the list is a work in progress, etc. But it must represent some more Travis focused research that may eventually key in on any involvement with Cobb's Creek and Halloween Park. Just want to hear what other sources and papers have to say about it, if anything.

I'm not saying Travis wasn't involved, I just want a firmer based from which to jump into that pool.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 28, 2008, 11:05:33 PM
FROM ED HOMSEY

it was really a great idea to post our travis list on that site.  i welcome the close scutiny that it will receive from others.  has certainly generated some great discussion, eh?
 
one of the posts raised question about essex county cc.  i'm checking that out and will get back with something.  i'm fairly sure that bob labbance discussed essex in the old man.
 
i really appreciated the comments by michael fay.  i agree with his statement that it is sometimes difficult to tell difference between ross and travis course.  cc of buffalo is an instance of that.  they spent a lot of time together in pinehurst, playing golf, and i'm assuming, talking about golf course design.  there was a reference to norwich.  i have some correspondence between tull and travis that i will review.  i think it will shed some light on norwich.
 
tony pioppi is right re misquamicut.  it should be listed in a category other than 'consultation'.  we listed the unbuilt louisville cc course that he designed.  will give that some thought.  indirectly, tony got us the correspondence re misquamicut.  bob labbance passed it on to us.  that was a terrific find.  we may decide to put it under remodelling.  i think that's what travis would do--if there was a golf course there prior to his work.
 
in another post, mike cirba raises question about a column that ran in the american golfer.  he wondered if it was travis speaking.  i'll do some review of that.  generally speaking, travis identified his columns as being from him, or the editor.  there were other columns that he identified as his writings.  again, i'll check it out.
 
thanks for the opportunities to make these comments.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 28, 2008, 11:06:37 PM
also from ED HOMSEY

re reply#29 who quoted bob labbance's interview concerning the relationship between travis and dunn, as it relates to cape arundel.  i stand by our current conclusion regarding dunn's role at cape arundel.  there is no evidence for it.  on the other hand, i do not dispute bob's description of the relationship between travis and dunn.  it was close and vital to travis's entry into golf course architecture at ekwanok.  it was very smart of travis to bring dunn in on that project, and to benefit from his expertise.

but, you are right.  i had said that cornish/whitten was the only reference to the travis/dunn partnership at arundel.  in fact, in addition to bob labbance's interview, there is also the listing in his book, the old man.
so, there are three such referents.  i haven't discussed this with bob, but will do so to see if he has any source that documents dunn's involvement at arundel other than cornish/whitten.  keep in mind that our goal is accuracy.

in re to reply #33.  i couldn't agree more.  the current travis listing is a work in progress.  it has changed every year since we started it in 1995.
there are changes that will be included in the 2009 listing, e.g. longue vue is nla; westchester hills will likely be reinstated based on recent information.

it is great having the listing out there for the scrutiny of everyone.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Chris_Blakely on January 29, 2008, 09:20:34 AM
Reply to post #36 / Ed Homsey:

My goal would is to have any course be attributed to the designers that worked on it.  I simply figured if C&W and Travis' biographer Bob Labbance made a reference to J.D. Dunn, there must be something there.  After reading your response, it looks you might feel the same way and are going to check in to it.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 29, 2008, 06:55:14 PM
Kyle,

"American Golfer" was Travis's magazine.

According to Ed at the Travis Society, he sees it as quite significant that he saw fit to list those courses there, as it was rare for him to trumpet any of his own work.

Given that he was hanging 'round Crump at the time, do you think he would have said he was doing work at Cobb's and PV if it wasn't true, in his own magazine?!?
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 29, 2008, 07:01:48 PM
Kyle,

"American Golfer" was Travis's magazine.

According to Ed at the Travis Society, he sees it as quite significant that he saw fit to list those courses there, as it was rare for him to trumpet any of his own work.

Given that he was hanging 'round Crump at the time, do you think he would have said he was doing work at Cobb's and PV if it wasn't true, in his own magazine?!?

I thought the mentions were in the Philadelphia papers?

Do you have the American Golfer blurbs? I agree, that would be significant.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on January 29, 2008, 07:05:19 PM
Kyle,

My mistake...I misread his message to me.  

I'll still hold onto "most of his time recently" as significant enuff.  ;)
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 29, 2008, 07:15:41 PM
Kyle,

My mistake...I misread his message to me.  

I'll still hold onto "most of his time recently" as significant enuff.  ;)

So, who was writing in the Bulletin then?
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Art Roselle on January 29, 2008, 10:12:33 PM
FROM ED HOMSEY

i really appreciated the comments by michael fay.  i agree with his statement that it is sometimes difficult to tell difference between ross and travis course.

What about Pinehurst itself?  Has the Society uncovered anything new about Travis's role in Pinehurst?  In his book on Ross, Bradley Klein cites a quote from American Golfer where Travis claims some credit for the bunkering and design of No. 2.  Any truth to that?

"Interestingly, Walter J. Travis, in a 1920 article in American Golfer, claimed credit for turning a dull, lifeless No. 2 Course into a well-bunkered strategic gem.  Back in 1906, he said, he convinced Leonard Tufts, James Tuft's son, and then Ross, of the merits of his plan.  This was no small boast, though there's no evidence to confirm his account - and none, as well, to refute it." - Discovering Donald Ross, Bradley Klein, pg. 75
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 30, 2008, 03:47:49 PM
MORE FROM ED

In an earlier posting, a question was raised about Essex County Golf Club in MA.  As I remembered, Bob Labbance gave quite a bit of attention to Essex in The Old Man.  Check it out on pgs 135-136.  This was a project where he was joined by John Duncan Dunn.

re the Cape Arundel listing.  As you recall, Chris Blakely raised questions about not crediting John Duncan Dunn with having helped out there.  As promised, I talked with Bob Labbance yesterday, told him of the issue, and reminded him of his statements in his GCA interview.  Bob has much more important things on his mind right now, but his reply was, "Your information is more current than what I had at the time."  He recalled that it was very difficult to nail down any Dunn involvement, though it was generally assumed that he was involved.  Ken Raynor, Director of Golf, at Arundel is a long time member of the Travis Society, and receives our Directory each time a new edition appears.  He has not raised any question about our leaving Dunn off the Arundel listing, and I can't recall if I discussed it with him.  If I didn't, I should have.  I'll ask for his thoughts.

Art raised a questions about Travis's involvement at Pinehurst and quotes from Brad Klein's book on Ross.  The 1920 American Golfer article that Klein refers to is the  key source that led us to include Pinehurst #2 under "Consultation".  The specific article is from a series of Travis autobiographical articles that were published in the American Golfer in 1920.  This was the Oct. 9, 1920 issue.  Some might say that Travis made some audacious claims relative to his influence on Ross and the remodelling of Pinehurst #2.  As Labbance pointed out in The Old Man, and Klein in his book, no record has been found of any attempt to refute the Travis claims.
In addition to that article, there is a 1904 Golf magazine item that reports Travis's recommendation to lengthen the first hole on #2.  A 1908 special issue of The Pinehurst Outlook carries an extensive statement by Travis in which he reviews in detail his opinion of their new course.  Given the date, he may have been talking about #3.  No where in this article did he imply any involvement on his part.  If there is anyone who would like a copy of the 1920 Travis article, put your request in through travissociety@yahoo.com.  of course, if you just join the society, I'll make sure that article is among the packet of articles that you'll receive as a new member.

Thanks to Joe Bausch, I've had an opportunity to examine up close the two Philadelphia Inquirer items that link Travis to Cobbs Creek and Halloween Park.  The 1916 item states "At Stamford, the veteran [referring to Travis] put in a day mapping out the ground and has reported to the Park Commission.
He state that while the links could not be long, it would prove decidedly attractive."  That sounds pretty convincing to me.  It would be great to get some confirmation from an early Stamford paper; I'll pursue that.  Re Cobb's Creek, I'd be inclined to put it under 'consultation'.  In the future, I think we should include a disclaimer for the "consultation" listings.  Some of those are based on magazine or newspaper items with little, or no, additional documentation.

Ed Homsey
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 30, 2008, 03:49:17 PM
If there is anyone who would like a copy of the 1920 Travis article, put your request in through travissociety@yahoo.com.  of course, if you just join the society, I'll make sure that article is among the packet of articles that you'll receive as a new member.

For those interested, the society is a whopping $20. to join, George Bush Sr. did.
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 30, 2008, 04:12:47 PM
ONE MORE FROM ED

I checked out the 1912 Eastern Pennsylvania Notes article in The American Golfer by "Far and Sure".  That is not Travis writing.  The style is not his, and the content suggests that it was someone much more familiar with the Philadelphia area than Travis is likely to have been.  I'm not convinced that it wasn't Tillinghast, though as suggested by one posting, he probably was the one who wrote under "Hazard".  Bob Labbance and I have talked often about the pseudonyms used in The American Golfer.  In Bob's extensive research for The Old Man, he was unable to solve the mystery, and speculated that "whenever it suited his fancy, Travis took on another name and let the doctrine fly".

Ed Homsey
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Dan Moore on January 30, 2008, 10:55:28 PM
Ian,

Thank you for hosting this list.  I have found it very informative.  Travis deserves all the acclaim he gets and probably deserves more for his contribution to architecture and popularizing the game.

I'm curious about the consulation at Chicago Golf in 1916.  Travis played in several tournaments there.  What did he do for the club?  Was he on site in 1916?  Are there any documents?  
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ian Andrew on January 31, 2008, 01:26:05 PM
dan,

re chicago golf club.  the information on travis's involvement at chicago gc is very sketchy.  a 1916 golf illustrated item that stated that travis had been asked to provide some suggestions for improvement of the chicago course while there for a visit.  no indication as to what he may have suggested, or whether it was carried out.


Ed Homsey
Title: Re:Travis List from Travis Society (with comments from Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on February 18, 2009, 12:59:22 PM
I find this description extremely interesting;

"the links is a nine-hole course, "accessible from all points on the mountains" and "laid out by walter j. travis.

At the time, the Poconos were just beginning to be developed as a destination and just coincidentally, Mount Pocono is built at the juncture of what then were the two main (and probably only) north/south and east/west roads.

It's also nine holes.

I'm now almost certain that the Mount Pocono Golf Course referenced above on this thread is in fact the one designed by Travis and opened in 1904.

The Library of Congress articles that Peter Pallotta led us to include a number of references to the course that opened in 1904, as well as other Travis attributions.

Most telling is an article that describes the links being regularly in use by residents of four area hotels, all of which are NLE.   They included the Montanesca, the Mount Pleasant House, the Pocono Mountain House, and the Fair View House.

For a long time I was confused because I assumed from another source that the course was on the grounds of the "Pocono Mountain House", which was about 1.5 miles away from the course.   In fact, as Joe found out two days ago, there WAS a first golf course associated with this house and probably on the grounds built in 1901, and attributed to "W.B. Pierce, the golf expert from Philadelphia".   But, it doesn't seem like it lasted long because the new Mount Pocono Country Club was planned by Travis in late 03 and opened in 04, and shortly after came the article showing play from multiple inns.   

Today I read an article from 1907 that talked about an automobile shuttle service newly available to the golf links from the "Pocono Mountain House", so it's clear that residents there were already using the brand new links.

However, the biggest new clue is simply finding that the "Mount Pleasant House" was right exactly across the street from the site of today's golf course, where the Burger King and Bank are, just south across the highway in question, as seen in the lower right hand corner of the following aerial;

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2350/2223734119_acfc638cea_o.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/2223733985_256c2ccd9c_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on February 18, 2009, 01:14:10 PM
Looking at this aerial from 1939 that shows more of the southwest corner, the large, centrally located structure of the "Mount Pleasant House" is much in view;

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3422/3290270747_537495295d_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Paul Stephenson on February 18, 2009, 03:01:15 PM
Is Ormond Golf Club NLE?
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ed Homsey on February 18, 2009, 08:23:14 PM
Mike--

Thanks for sticking with this.  I will copy your message for our Mount Pocono file.  You've been the only one who has provided any assistance with this question--a question that was first raised by Bob Labbance by a brief item he found in the Philadelphia Inquirer.  We've paid money for local historians to search out information regarding the course, to no avail, and our President has travelled there and done searching to no avail.  Your conclusions are respected and appreciated.

re the Ormand Golf Club question.  We do not have any information beyond a report that some changes were made to the course in response to suggestions by Travis.  The course may not be in existence.  If anyone has information about the current status of Ormand Golf Club, the Travis Society would welcome it.

Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ed Homsey on February 18, 2009, 08:42:35 PM
I should have pointed out in my previous posting that the Travis golf course project list posted a little over a year ago has changed.  The Travis Society's 2009 Directory of Walter J. Travis Golf Course Projects has several changes, including new entries and updated dates.  Many hours were spent scouring our files, as well as the files that Bob Labbance turned over to us, for correct information about Travis golf course projects.  In the 2009 directory, we identify those entries whose documentation is weak. 
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on February 19, 2009, 03:28:51 PM
I see there was also the mention some time ago on this thread regarding what documentation existed re: Walter Travis at Pinehurst.

In case anyone missed it, I'll repost from a thread I started a few months back....


A March 11th, 1911 Philadelphia Press article titled "30 Quakers Tramp Pinehurst Links - Philadelphians Help Swell Army of Golf Enthusiasts at Southern Resort to 800" was but a sample of the type of ongoing enthusiasm and consistent support for the "winter tour" among the well-to-do golfing enthusiasts of the city.

From the article;

"The number of Philadelphians who come here yearly is increasing steadily as there is no place in the South which compares to Pinehurst when it comes to golf.  At one of the hotels there are more than 400 golfers quartered and it is safe to say that oever the three courses more than 800 golfers may be found any bright day."

"The Spring tournament, which ended today, was responsible for the second largest entry list in the history of golf.   The entries numbered 241 and this was beaten in only one tournament - the Transmississippi at Denver a few years ago.   Here, 228 actually played, which is a new record.  This is remarkable in view of the fact that the weather was down to freezing and a stiff gale blew across the course."

"There are three distinct, great eighteen-hole courses here, which is true of no other place in the world except the R&A Golf Club of St. Andrews, Scotland.   A fourth has been staked out and will be in readiness next Spring.   The most famous of these courses is the No. 2 course, laid out by Donald Ross and Walter J. Travis.  They did not plan it together, but each coincided with the other's suggestions.   The only change suggested by Travis and which was adopted was the omissions of cross bunkers.   The ground is rolling and the grass on the fairway is Bermuda grass, the only kind that is possible in most golf resorts in the South."

"The putting greens are of clay foundation and covered with sand.   The greens are flat and as there are no worm casts, perfect putting is always possible.   The greens are watered for a radius of a few feet from the hole and men are employed to do nothing else but water the greens and drag a roll of carpet over them to remove all traces of heel marks."

While this article and architectural attributions are noteworthy to point out the popularity of Pinehurst during these early years, it doesnt speak necessarily to the architectural sophistication that was found there.

However, the following article from the May 1912 American Golfer does;

"After one of the most unprofitable—from a golfer's point of view—winter, Philadelphia extended a warm greeting to spring. It has been years since the links of the Quaker City have been so unplayable as the period from Christmas until the latter part of March.  An occasional day was the only respite from weeks of the worst possible sort of weather."

"One thing will be noted by visitors from other cities whether they play over such excellent eighteen hole courses as Huntingdon Valley and the Philadelphia Cricket Clubs as representing the larger organizations or the two dozen or more courses of nine holes and that is the growing tendency to improve in a more scientific manner the courses around Philadelphia. "

"Time was when changes were made in a sort of a hit or miss manner. Today every trap or pit that is constructed means something definite and with it all has come the scientific construction of bunkers and hazards.  Time was when the green committee built courses on a broad principle of the greatest good to the greatest number and as the greatest number in every golfing organization is the dub or indifferent player, the really good player suffered.  As the chairman of the green committee of one of the largest courses recently expressed himself: "A few years ago we used to post the changes proposed. This met with so much opposition that we were forced to take a couple of days in the week when we were sure that the bulk of the players would not be on the course and then we started to construct a course that would help the good player and do no great injury to the poor player.  Nowadays, fortunately, we are able to make changes without feeling that we would be subjected to the severest sort of criticism.""

"There is no doubt that the Southern courses have done wonders for golfing conditions around Philadelphia.  It is not so many years ago that very few players took two weeks off in mid winter to play golf in the south.   Where one player went South five years ago, twenty go now.  Pinehurst, in particular has worked wonders. Hundreds of men who have always played a rather indifferent game have gone to Pinehurst and have been confronted with golf courses constructed on scientific principles where traps and pits have been placed in spots because good golf demanded their presence there."

"The result has been that the indifferent, careless player found that every shot he made demanded study and care and the golf there brought out the best in him. When he got back to the home heath he began to realize that one of the reasons he had not been playing better golf was because his own course was constructed on rather slip shod lines, on the one hand, or built on lines to suit him and scores of other players who insisted that the course should not be made any harder than it was. He realized for the first time that his wild shots were not penalized, that many of his approaches should have been punished but were not. The realizing sense finally came to him that he had not been playing golf but had simply used the paraphernalia of the game in a very bungling fashion."

"As a direct result scores of the indifferent players who have received their real golf education in the south have gone to the green committees and frankly and freely confessed that their theories were all wrong and asked them to stiffen the course. They now realize that it is impossible to play good golf over an inferior course and that a good course does not hamper their game but actually helps it."

"At any event, the golfing renaissance in Philadelphia has actually begun and before many years we shall have courses which are a credit to us and not a mark of good natured chaffing of others who  know what constitutes a good course."  - "Far and Sure" - May 1912

Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on February 19, 2009, 04:06:52 PM
Ed/Ian,

Here's a bit more on Mount Pocono..

From November 1903

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3412/3292970275_24844cfeb3_o.jpg)


From July 1904

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/3292970295_6ce3376af1_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Yannick Pilon on February 20, 2009, 10:49:53 AM
Ian and Ed,

This thread must have slipped by my attention when it was first published last year,
but something immediatelly caught my attention this time regarding the Grand Mere course.

Your list seems to claim that the Grand Mere course was designed in 1910 by Travis himself,
while the course's website claims the course was "conceived" by Frederic de Peyster Townsend
and "completed"  by Walter Travis.  The Travis biography by Bob Labbance claims that he
consulted there at an undetermined date, but yet, there is not even a mention of this course
on the Travis Society's website.

Do you know what kind of evidence there is out there to confirm that he was indeed, responsible
for consulting, co-designing, or even designing this course?

I have heard interesting things about this place, but did not have the chance to see it yet.  And most
courses designed by famous golden age architects in Quebec have been altered beyond recognition,
so I am just wondering if there would be anything left from Travis on that course....

Thanks for any info.

YP
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ed Homsey on February 20, 2009, 02:32:53 PM
Mike--You have contributed valuable information to the Travis Society's file on Mount Pocono Golf and Country Club.  To have identified its location is a major achievement.  I appreciate your posting of the aerials and the newspaper clippings.  Those clipping are a great complement to the Philadelphia Inquirer 1904 news item found by Bob Labbance while he was doing research for a Philmont CC hundreth year anniversary book.  Bob's discovery was the first we'd heard of Mount Pocono GCC, and that was followed by a series of exchanges with you.

I also appreciate the documentation you present regarding Travis's involvement at Pinehurst and, particularly, with Pinehurst #2.  Our primary source of evidence that indicates Travis was involved with the #2 course comes from his Oct. 9, 1920 autobiographical article in The American Golfer.  I am not going to post the entire section on Pinehurst and Travis's relationship with Donald Ross, but would encourage those interested to look up the article on the USGA's Segl site.  In the article, Travis describes how he persuaded Mr. Tufts to toughen the #2 course.  He states that he "suggested that Donald Ross and I should go over the course together and, without conferring, each propose a separate plan".  Further, he states that "for some time I had been pouring into Donald's ears my ideas; in point of fact, I had urged him to take up the laying out of courses...".  He digressed to describe the "Willie Dunn system" that "called for compulsory carries for both tee and second shots", and pointed out the he was "an advocate of optional carries".  He implied that his thinking represented the "governing principle" in the bunkering of #2, with the exception of the 12th where he and Ross apparently differed in their view.  Travis concluded with the opinion that the "stiffening" up of #2 brought it to a high level of respect and popularity.  In his Travis biography, "The Old Man", Bob Labbance pointed out that both Ross and Tufts were alive at the time Travis wrote this article and that there is no evidence of any attempt to dispute Travis's statements.  In other sources, there is evidence that Ross and Travis spent time together in Pinehurst.
 
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: JMorgan on February 20, 2009, 02:55:30 PM
Have you guys gone through the Travis papers at the USGA yet?  Great stuff.
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ed Homsey on February 20, 2009, 03:14:57 PM
Yannick--

Re your question about Grand'Mere in Quebec.  I can understand the confusion.  It is only recently that we have begun to clarify the role the Walter Travis played at Grand'Mere.
The most convincing evidence came within the past two weeks when a historian from the Golf Historical Society of Canada contacted the Travis Society for some images that he could use in an article he is writing in connection with the 100th anniversary of Grand'Mere.  He stated that he has seen the 14 hole maps drawn by Walter Travis.  He and I surmise that Travis used 4 of the holes that were already there, and done by Townsend. 

Other evidence consists of listings of courses that Travis used in a magazine ad and in two letters he wrote to clubs soliciting commissions to design their course.  In the magazine ad, Travis listed Grand'mere as a "remodeled" course; in the letters, he gave Grand'Mere as a reference to be used for his golf course design work.

The course listing that appears on the Travis Society webpage needs to be updated.  There are several entries missing and others that have incorrect dates or are in incorrect categories.  That's on my list of things to do.  Our current "2009 Directory of Walter J. Travis Golf Course Projects" lists Grand'Mere as an Original design.  We will probably rethink that next year after more information is gathered.  We're hoping to acquire copies of the hole maps held by Grand'Mere.  I do not recall what information we had when Bob Labbance included Grand'Mere in his list.  But, subsequent to that time, we dropped it from our list because we had no information about the course.  It wasn't until 2005 when we received an email from an individual who had been at Grand'Mere, played the course, and heard that Travis had played a part in the design.  That led to the discovery of their website, a contact with the Golf Historical Society of Canada, and the rest is history!
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ed Homsey on February 20, 2009, 03:21:50 PM
JP--

We've gone through it in detail and have copies of just about all of it.  Our good friend, Bob Labbance, was the first to get into it when he was doing research for the Travis biography, The Old Man.  Last June, he turned over all of his Travis files to us; less than two months before ALS took his life.  Bob had copied all of the Travis personal letters, in addition to other items from the Travis papers.  The remainder of it was copied by Rudy Zocchi, honorary member of our Executive Committee, who spent many days at Golf House gathering information for us.  You're absolutely right.  Those papers are a treasure trove of insight into Walter Travis.  It was a wonderful gesture on the part of Travis's grand-daughter to donate those papers to the USGA.
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Mike_Cirba on March 06, 2009, 03:07:13 PM
re the Ormand Golf Club question.  We do not have any information beyond a report that some changes were made to the course in response to suggestions by Travis.  The course may not be in existence.  If anyone has information about the current status of Ormand Golf Club, the Travis Society would welcome it.

The former Ormond Golf Club is today's Oceanside Country Club, circa 1907, in Ormond.

I have seen articles where Travis played there in the first decade of last century, and I know the club just celebrated their 100th anniversay in 2007.

Here's from their history....I'm quite sure this is the course Travis played, and where he likely had input into their expansion and early evolution.

OCC History
 
The first club house stood near the freight depot on the mainland. The golf course was nearby. Some historical references indicate it to have been a 7-hole course, but most refer to it as a 9-hole course.

The course was built as an added attraction for winter guests and visitors to the then fabulous winter resort caravansary known as the Ormond Hotel, which was later to become the largest wooden structure in the world with 400 rooms and eleven miles of hallways, porches and breeze ways.

The hotel was first conceived by two extra­ordinary entrepreneurs, J. D. Price and John Anderson, who were to devote most of their remaining years to the development and manage­ment of this property, including that on which the Oceanside Country Club golf course exists today.

So conscious were they of the desirability of the area's location that they envisioned the need for a hotel property. Lacking funds to build one, they heard of a winter visitor who had come down sickly and returned North in good health. Better still, he was a wealthy man, Stephen VanCullen "Deacon" White, a New York Wall Street magnate.

Price and Anderson went up to see him and he not only fell in with their plans, but proposed building a railroad as well as a bridge across the Halifax . The nearest railroad was East Palatka . So he built his narrow gauge railroad, the St. John's and Halifax Railroad from there to Ormond. The hotel was completed and celebrated its opening January 1, 1888, with great ceremonies.

Concurrent with this activity Henry M. Flagler, one of John D. Rockefeller's first two partners in his oil wagon delivery business in Cleveland, that later became the Standard Oil Company, proceeded to use some of his oil company millions to build a railroad down the East Coast of Florida.

To provide destinations for his rail he conceived the idea of building resort hotels along his rail route and started with the Ponce de Leon in St. Augustine . It was completed in 1887.

Flagler saw the Ormond Hotel which opened the following year as a rival of his chain or an opportunity to fulfill his plan.

By then, White, the Wall Street magnate, could not obtain sufficient investment gains in the amount he desired and when Henry Flagler made him an offer, he accepted it.

The hotel's first golf course was a 9-hole affair across the Halifax River . It was there in 1904 that Harry Williams, the long-time course super­intendent and golf pro in the Daytona area, arrived. To reach the course from the hotel, one first had to be ferried over. Later there was walking space on the wooden bridge and eventually mule-drawn cars were used.

The 9-hole course was supplanted in 1907 when Harry Williams and George Merritt were assigned to build a new course between the hotel and the ocean. It was designed by P. F. Seabloom, a landscaper who had designed the landscaping for Flagler's posh mansion in Palm Beach , " Whitehall ", and also designed the Country Club of Palm Beach course for the Breakers Hotel and the Ponce de Leon course in St. Augustine .

In building the new course, Williams had to go to Baltimore to hire a trainload of laborers. The fare to bring them down was $278.00 for the trainload. Swinging grub hoes and axes, they tore out the rough palmettos and trainloads of Bermuda grass were brought in and planted by hand. The first nine holes were completed in 1907 and the second nine the following year. To hasten the course's preparation and have it in readiness for the upcoming winter season, laborers worked at night watering the fairways. There was no sprinkling system at that time, at least not automatic. That did not come for many years.

The course had square sand greens which were not as bad as one would imagine. They had a marl base and red sand top. They were soft, says Williams, almost as soft as grass.

The new 18 hole course became known as the Ormond Beach Golf Links since, for most of its length except for dunes and the second clubhouse, it was properly adjoining the sea.

One of the Ormond Hotel's early century visitors was Henry Flagler's partner, John D. Rockefeller. In 1914, Rockefeller, then known as the "world's richest man", and his entourage of forty, rented the entire West Wing consisting of twenty rooms, and here he lived for three winters until he bought the Reverend Huntington's home across Granada Avenue (now Boulevard) and named it the "Casements."

Rockefeller's presence provided the Ormond area with world-wide publicity, frequently enriched by photos of him passing out his famous dime tips. In the latter years he even gave them to celebrities with whom he chatted following an afternoon of golf. One who turned the tables on him was Will Rogers who some press agent arranged to have the pair pictured with Will Rogers presenting JDR with a dime.

One of his greatest dedications was his love for the game of golf which he played even in his 90s. When one saw a crowd on the course, one could be sure it was a retinue of acquaintances and others who were following him around the course. Usually beside him was a little caddy boy to hold his oversized umbrella to shield him from the sun and rain.

His many Ormond guests included such notables as Harvey Firestone, President Harding, the Prince of Wales and among those who joined him in post-game chats were Marion Tally and Galli-Curci.

On another occasion, in 1923, a group of prominent Americans were guests aboard Mr. Ned McLean's yacht. McLean was the multi-millionaire whose wife once owned the Hope Diamond. Among the guests were President Harding, Senator Freylinghausen of New Jersey , Senator Fred Hall of Miami, Albert D. Lasker, Judge John Barton Payne, Charles G. Dawes, Director of the Budget and later Vice-President under Coolidge.

In 1918 Flagler's Palm Beach Hotel, The Breakers, sponsored the Championship of Palm Beach Tournament, later renamed the Women's Championship of Florida. So successful did this tournament become that Ray McCarthy Public Relations Agency was hired by the F.E.C. Hotels Organization to stimulate interest among winter visitors by expanding the idea and introducing it in the Flagler Hotels in Ormond Beach and St. Augustine . The Florida East Coast Championship was the name given to the St. Augustine tournament and the Women's South Atlantic to the Ormond Beach meet.

The three tournaments were run a week apart starting in Palm Beach and moving up the coast to Ormond Beach and then St. Augustine . It might be said that these three were the Florida Winter Orange Blossom Circuit of the 20s, a fore-runner of today's four Orange Blossom Tournaments starting with Harder Hall in Sebring, the South Atlantic here, the Doherty Challenge Cup in Fort Lauderdale and the International Four-Ball in Hollywood .

The Breakers discontinued the Palm Beach event in 1936 and when the Ponce de Leon Hotel was sold to a select girls' school, the St. Augustine Championship was also discontinued.

Ormond Beach support and respect for the SALLY is indicated by the continued sponsorship from 1926 and even through several changes of owner­ship of the course starting in 1948 when the Daytona Beach Chamber of Commerce, backed by the Ormond Beach Golf Association, induced F.E.C. officials to keep the golf course open through­out the year. The OBGA agreed to pay $1,000.00 per month to offset maintenance expenditures.

In 1949, Robert Woodward, formerly of the Peabody Hotel, Memphis , purchased the Ormond Hotel and golf course from the F.E.C. Hotel System bringing his hotel management institute here, but discontinued the school in 1950. He sold the golf course in 1951 to Merrill Ellinor. Ellinor made extensive improvements in the golf layout and renamed the course Ellinor Village Country Club. Through each of these changes the new owners continued the South Atlantic Championship as a major winter attraction.

In 1962, Ellinor sold the golf club and property to the newly-formed Oceanside Country Club Corporation. It was timely in 1976 that the new clubhouse should represent, not only the fifty years of SALLY history, but the long step from one room one-storey clubhouse near the freight depot on the mainland where it all began.

Oceanside Golf and Country Club became a reality on May 1, 1963, when the purchase of land and facilities was completed. The purchase price was $971,235.00 and the strategic plan was to sell off various parcels of land to cover the purchase cost. 2,000 feet of land on Granada was appraised at $600,000.00 and the initial parcel was sold in 1964 for $60,000.00, 200 feet to accommodate a professional building. Club membership numbered 389 in May, 1964.

The first club party was a Luau in August, 1963. Vince Minnelli and his South Sea Islanders played for dancing. The Lester Lanin "high society" orchestra played at the October, 1963 club party.

Twenty electric carts were included in the original purchase (not all operating). Spare parts from 12 other unusable carts were utilized to keep the "fleet" operating. Twenty four new Paugh carts were promptly purchased at $600.00 each. Substantial work was done to the course and club­house to improve conditions, almost everything required repair or replacement.

During 1964 the new club sold 1,450 feet frontage on Granada for $445,000.00 and the golf course was redesigned during 1965 to accommodate the Granada land sale and to permit both the front and back nines to begin and end at the clubhouse.

1970 was a busy year at Oceanside . Golf course conditions were improved with the addition of labor-saving equipment and installation of additional irrigation systems. A significant improvement was the addition of four new tennis courts to accommodate the Oceanside growing membership. On January, 1971, the club had 637 members.

During 1975 our present clubhouse was constructed and in 1976 the club sold two tracts of land on Granada - 200 feet where Sun Bank is now located and 312 feet where Food Lion now operates. The $668,304.00 realized from the sale was used to retire an existing mortgage and the balance placed in a restricted fund. The new clubhouse marked a "new era" in Oceanside history.

Many things happened over a short period of time at Oceanside . Many members were involved, especially the "Hermit" Club men's group. The "Hermit" Club provided enthusiasm and guidance for many improvements over the years, including the "south" practice green we all enjoy today.

In the late 70s and early 80s the club began to experience serious problems with salt water intrusion in our existing wells; even new wells did not solve the problem. During 1980 we received information from the city of Ormond Beach that relief from salt water intrusion may be in our future when plans are finalized to use effluent water from the city. During this period some golf course lakes were deepened and addition­al wells added. It was not until 1991 when we began receiving effluent water from the city of Ormond Beach that the course began to change for the better.

Mother Nature dealt Oceanside two bad blows in 1983 - a tornado and a deep freeze; however, the rain was helpful and the course conditions improved. Many members contributed time and funds to repair the damages.

In 1987 and 1988 our present clubhouse was completely renovated providing outstanding facilities for our members, new ballroom area new dining room, new ladies' and men's locker rooms, new Mixed Grille, everything improved.

Our golf course was completely renovated in 1993, mainly to improve drainage. In order to secure fill to solve drainage problems all existing lakes were made larger and deeper with the removed dirt used to raise course playing areas to facilitate drainage.

It is interesting to note that the highest land areas at Oceanside are 17 feet above sea level and the lake levels are 8 feet above sea level. A great deal of designing was necessary to solve the many problems with 9 feet of "fall" over 80 acres to work with. A new computer control irrigation system, as well as new tees and greens, were also accomplished. A new longer driving range was completed as well as an improved practice area. An attractive berm was also created along A1A south of Neptune to create a separation between holes 2 and 3 and the ever-busy A1A.

The New Millennium finds Oceanside better than it has ever been. Membership continues to grow and the facilities are being continuously improved. We have recently expanded the Tennis Courts and refurbished the pool area in the Spring. In addition, there as been added emphasis on developing programs for the children and grandchildren of members.

The SALLY continues to field contestants from all over the world including a large European contingent. With some architectural changes in the Golf course, the SALLY Girls are treated to quite the challenge - but in the end the usual windy weather crops up to provide the biggest challenge of all. When all is said and done, the whole event is a wonderful success.

 
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ed Homsey on March 10, 2009, 08:58:15 PM
To Mike Cirba re Ormond:  thanks, Mike, for that information.  Your speculation about the Oceanside Country Club being the "Ormand" linked to Travis makes sense.

To David Cronan:  Re your question about the link between Walter Travis and Fredric Law Olmsted at Louisville CC.  The Travis Society has a ton of information about Louisville CC, from many sources, including a current Louisville CC who is immersed in the history of the club, as well as extensive Travis correspondence about Louisville.  In none of our information is there any mention of Frederic Law Olmsted.  I can assure you that is there were any hint of such a connection, my ears would have perked up.  I'm always looking for such connections.  It would have bee a great story had there been such a collaboration, but there is no evidence of such.  Thanks for bringing it up.  Nice to hear of Olmsted's involvement in Louisville.

Ed Homsey, Archivist, Travis Society
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Tom MacWood on June 05, 2010, 03:40:01 PM
I recently found this in the NY Sun.
Title: Re: Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)
Post by: Ronald Montesano on June 05, 2010, 04:34:04 PM
Crikey, lads...the joint masterpiece!  Now that's something worth going through the archives for!